Dupe bug, SV denies the real damage.

Toferio

Well, new bug is up, this seems to be a pretty serious issue.

http://www.mortalonline.com/forums/49350-npc-steel-11-1-gold-1000-a.html

To quote in case of thread being deleted:

So, I notice a disturbing trend. I see that Steel is selling for ridiculously low prices by players. Down to 20 Gold / Stack in some cases from 50G a few patches ago. This boggles my mind because after the last couple of patches the Risar stopped dropping a lot of Pig Iron, and we now have depletable nodes. Logic would dictate that prices would rise and supply would fall with these changes. Apparently the NPC's didn't get the memo.



What do I mean? NPC's have infinite quantity of the goods they sell. You can go to a Wood Vendor and buy 10,000 Brownwood if you want to. This is the way they are intended to work. There is a problem with this when it comes to goods sold to the vendor, specifically with extracted and refined goods. This is because these goods are only player-made (for the most part) and the costs at which the NPC's sell them, in most cases, do not reflect their actual market value.



If you haven't figured it out by now, this is the dupe most people are clamoring about. I wouldn't even call it a dupe so much as terrible programming, but it is an exploit that is undermining the economy. It makes the 10s books look like nothing comparatively.



I won't explain how to do it in detail. If you want to figure out then there are plenty of posts in the Bug Tracker to fill you in. It's pretty shitty to think for how long this has been in the game, and how many people have been using it, obviously quite a lot have, given the trade prices.



The bottom line is that you can buy 12,000 Steel / trade at the NPC for ~130 Gold.



AKA ~11 Gold / Stack of 1000 Steel.



I don't have the data, but I imagine people doing the same for things like Tungsteel & Cronite, and the effect being exponentially worse. Get it together Starvault...

TLDR; version- It seems that if you sell 1k of steel to the vendor, you can buy 5k back, so the stacks multiply somehow, and more items are available then player actually sold. I can see why this is drasticly affecting economy atm, making steel go for NPC price.

 

Update: Now SV also started lying that the bug only been around for hours, while it was confirmed by many members to be around for weeks.

Slapshot1188

I'm sure when they get back to work on Mondya it will be their top priority to fix!

 

That bug has been publicly listed on the DevTracker for awhile... guess it's going to get bumped to high priority now :-)

 

Toferio

Originally posted by Slapshot1188

That bug has been publicly listed on the DevTracker for awhile... guess it's going to get bumped to high priority now :-)

Weird that such a bug was not fixed as soon it was known, along with exploding horses :S

Slapshot1188

Originally posted by Toferio

Originally posted by Slapshot1188

That bug has been publicly listed on the DevTracker for awhile... guess it's going to get bumped to high priority now :-)

Weird that such a bug was not fixed as soon it was known, along with exploding horses :S

 I don;t think they grasped it's severity until now.  It sounds innocuous enough.. but now people have found a way to use it to create limitless amounts of gold and all resources.   Now what do they do?  Server Wipe?   If there is no wipe how do they get all the duped resources (it not just steel.. but ALL resources like wood etc) out of the gameworld?  You can ban a few people who directly abused the merchant... but those resources have (and continue to be) passed around the world.  They currently have been used to build houses (keeps!?!?), weapons, armor...  all the result of this exploit.

 

Don't forget that it's the end of the free month and we know by their own closed polling that at least 40% have said they were leaving at the end of the free period.  I'd bet a bunch of those people are going to have a "fun" weekend....

Toferio

Originally posted by Slapshot1188

 I don;t think they grasped it's severity until now.  It sounds innocuous enough.. but now people have found a way to use it to create limitless amounts of gold and all resources.   Now what do they do?  Server Wipe?   If there is no wipe how do they get all the duped resources (it not just steel.. but ALL resources like wood etc) out of the gameworld?  You can ban a few people who directly abused the merchant... but those resources have (and continue to be) passed around the world.  They currently have been used to build houses (keeps!?!?), weapons, armor...  all the result of this exploit.

 

Someone did mention that he/she spoke to the devs and they are still unsure what to do about the situation, due to the reasons you mentioned above. I wonder how much of the spread is the duped steel atm.. I would take a shot in the dark and say in about 20% of all stuff.

zaffa

Suprised that people just found out about this (been in since beta). I do think though that SV is nailed to a wall on this one. If they don't wipe, the game's meta game will be dominated by nothing but dupers and the economy in the game will be meaningless. On the other hand, SV can wipe and risk having too few people to populate the game (in its first month no less). I doubt SV can really risk losing any more people and in all likelihood will have to sacrifice the game's economy in the name of maintaining subs. 

 

Besides, I seriously doubt SV possesses the means this early into development to have maintain massive logs of player activity (namely duping).

Toferio

Reply from Teiwaz, lead moderator:

Devs are aware of the problem and are working over the weekend to fix it.



I would delete this thread, but everyone seems to be aware of the problem anyway, so closed for now.



All duped items will be wiped, I seriously suggest you do not take advantage of this bug as it will leave records and devs may take action against your account.

Slapshot1188

Originally posted by Toferio

 

Someone did mention that he/she spoke to the devs and they are still unsure what to do about the situation, due to the reasons you mentioned above. I wonder how much of the spread is the duped steel atm.. I would take a shot in the dark and say in about 20% of all stuff.

 Keep in mind it's not just steel... but it could be used for any resource as long as the math made sense.

 

I like the part where The Map says that he was talking to a developer YESTERDAY and they don't know/haven't decided what to do.  Wouldn;t most companies bring down the servers IMMEDIATELY to stop this stuff?

Slapshot1188

Originally posted by Toferio

Reply from Teiwaz, lead moderator:

Devs are aware of the problem and are working over the weekend to fix it.



I would delete this thread, but everyone seems to be aware of the problem anyway, so closed for now.



All duped items will be wiped, I seriously suggest you do not take advantage of this bug as it will leave records and devs may take action against your account.

What about all the items and houses and keeps built with the duped items (knowingly or not)?  What about all the money which has changed hands?  What about the guilds who have shared resources?

Toferio

Originally posted by Slapshot1188

Originally posted by Toferio

Reply from Teiwaz, lead moderator:

Devs are aware of the problem and are working over the weekend to fix it.



I would delete this thread, but everyone seems to be aware of the problem anyway, so closed for now.



All duped items will be wiped, I seriously suggest you do not take advantage of this bug as it will leave records and devs may take action against your account.

What about all the items and houses and keeps built with the duped items (knowingly or not)?  What about all the money which has changed hands?  What about the guilds who have shared resources?

I guess it all will be wiped..

ChinaCat

Originally posted by Toferio

I guess it all will be wiped..

I doubt it, and heaven forbid they should work on a weekend.

An International release.  Show me any other MMO and you'd see a hot fix for this and a roll-back and/or deletion.

The only thing these few devs. on MO have demonstrated to care about is money.   There have been huge economic unbalanced issues since release and nothing was ever done retroactively to even attempt to level the playing field.

-CC

PieRad

thanks god i didn't buy this game. df all over again xD

Slapshot1188

Originally posted by Beazt

thanks god i didn't buy this game. df all over again xD

 Well.. Darkfall didn't wipe... and as a result they lost me as a customer after a few months.  I was tired of fighting folks and clans that had gained an edge from exploiting.  Yes they closed the holes and banned a few people but the results of the exploits was still felt long after. Was not wiping the right choice?  I don't know... as I said it caused me to stop playing... but they are still around today and have 2 servers.  If they wiped would they have folded?  Or would they have a larger playerbase today?

This dupe/exploit is even worse.  It will be interesting to see how it's impact is handled.   It's gone on for so long and affected so much of the game (even unknowing folks who bought dirt cheap resources or items... or guilds who had a few people abusing the bug to help them build keeps) that I honestly don't see how they can not wipe...

At least it came to light before the monthly charges kicked in.

rmason

only problem i have had with the game is how damn hard it is to get ANY type of weapons/armor other than starter stuff when you go in to the world. they need to put a noob weapon vendor up so people can actually train in the skills they want.

I picked the scout class which comes with taming/archery/few others fully expecting to get a "new player bow" as a large portion of skill point were already dumped in to archery it from the pre-made. i log on, i get an axe and a sword. figured i would just level my stats up for a day or so and then go in to town and purchase one.

4 days later and no bow i said screw this game and stopped playing. 

i sat in town for a few days trying to buy one/find someone to make me one/find a vendor with one. then i went out into the world to try to find something that dropped one. not only did i not find anything to drop it but the world in itself is pretty sparsly populated.

the lack of anything to kill, inability to get a weapon i want to start using, and the rampant deaths from people ganking me made me put the game in the "dont play" folder

BLittmanEsq

---

Originally posted by ChinaCat

---

Originally posted by Toferio


I guess it all will be wiped..

---

I doubt it, and heaven forbid they should work on a weekend.
An International release.  Show me any other MMO and you'd see a hot fix for this and a roll-back and/or deletion.
The only thing these few devs. on MO have demonstrated to care about is money.   There have been huge economic unbalanced issues since release and nothing was ever done retroactively to even attempt to level the playing field.
-CC

---

There was a hotfix today that temporarily limits NPC vendors until this issue is fixed. Not as good as fixing the problem, but much better than shutting down the server or letting the problem persist.

---

Originally posted by Slapshot1188

---

Originally posted by Beazt

thanks god i didn't buy this game. df all over again xD

---

 Well.. Darkfall didn't wipe... and as a result they lost me as a customer after a few months.  I was tired of fighting folks and clans that had gained an edge from exploiting.  Yes they closed the holes and banned a few people but the results of the exploits was still felt long after. Was not wiping the right choice?  I don't know... as I said it caused me to stop playing... but they are still around today and have 2 servers.  If they wiped would they have folded?  Or would they have a larger playerbase today?
This dupe/exploit is even worse.  It will be interesting to see how it's impact is handled.   It's gone on for so long and affected so much of the game (even unknowing folks who bought dirt cheap resources or items... or guilds who had a few people abusing the bug to help them build keeps) that I honestly don't see how they can not wipe...
At least it came to light before the monthly charges kicked in.

---

 
Some duped steel isn't nearly as bad as permanently overpowered characters.  I don't see how an influx of mats is worse than what DF saw.
 
 

BLittmanEsq

Originally posted by rmason

only problem i have had with the game is how damn hard it is to get ANY type of weapons/armor other than starter stuff when you go in to the world. they need to put a noob weapon vendor up so people can actually train in the skills they want.

I picked the scout class which comes with taming/archery/few others fully expecting to get a "new player bow" as a large portion of skill point were already dumped in to archery it from the pre-made. i log on, i get an axe and a sword. figured i would just level my stats up for a day or so and then go in to town and purchase one.

4 days later and no bow i said screw this game and stopped playing. 

i sat in town for a few days trying to buy one/find someone to make me one/find a vendor with one. then i went out into the world to try to find something that dropped one. not only did i not find anything to drop it but the world in itself is pretty sparsly populated.

the lack of anything to kill, inability to get a weapon i want to start using, and the rampant deaths from people ganking me made me put the game in the "dont play" folder

 

Weapons are all player-crafted, mobs don't drop them.  If you started in a quieter town there might not be as many crafters... try making your way to Fabernum or Meduli (for example), there's plenty of bow-crafters around. Check out NaveMap.Com to find your way (remember to stick near rivers and you should be fine).

ChinaCat

So what exactly is the point of bringing up what DFO or any other game experienced?    This is Mortal Online with its own unique mistakes and bugs/exploits.    Either suggest a solution or you merely become part of the problem.

Where DFO is concerned, I agree, release in EU was riddled with absurd bugs and ways to skill up that only required macroing; but at least there was a 1,000 times more of game there to play.   The redeeming part of that fiasco was the release of a NA Server where mechanics were changed allowing players to skill up to comparable levels before any one was allowed to transfer from EU to NA well after 6-months (if I recall correctly) after NA was brought up.

MO is a mess.  It's only been up 30-days.  Do you really want to use other games as an excuse, or would it perhaps be more productive to focus on this game and suggest how it can get back on track?

Short of a server wipe, I don't see it, and for the record, I suggested the same thing many times after DFO launched.

-CC

BLittmanEsq

Originally posted by ChinaCat

So what exactly is the point of bringing up what DFO or any other game experienced?    This is Mortal Online with its own unique mistakes and bugs/exploits.    Either suggest a solution or you merely become part of the problem.

Where DFO is concerned, I agree, release in EU was riddled with absurd bugs and ways to skill up that only required macroing; but at least there was a 1,000 times more of game there to play.   The redeeming part of that fiasco was the release of a NA Server where mechanics were changed allowing players to skill up to comparable levels before any one was allowed to transfer from EU to NA well after 6-months (if I recall correctly) after NA was brought up.

MO is a mess.  It's only been up 30-days.  Do you really want to use other games as an excuse, or would it perhaps be more productive to focus on this game and suggest how it can get back on track?

Short of a server wipe, I don't see it, and for the record, I suggested the same thing many times after DFO launched.

-CC

I'm not the one who brought up DFO, I was simply refuting Slapshot's claim that this vendor bug is worse than anything that happened in DFO.

 

And a server wipe would be ridiculous;  are you really saying that this bug will have a lasting effect in MO in a year?   I really, really doubt it.

Slapshot1188

Originally posted by BLittmanEsq

 

I'm not the one who brought up DFO, I was simply refuting Slapshot's claim that this vendor bug is worse than anything that happened in DFO.

 

And a server wipe would be ridiculous;  are you really saying that this bug will have a lasting effect in MO in a year?   I really, really doubt it.

 My "claim" was in response to another person who compared it to Darkfall.

 

This bug/exploit/dupe has affected every facet of the game.  It's not just steel. It's keeps, houses, weapons, armor, cash for skill books, gold to buy anything you want.  It's highend materials.. its lowend materials.  Steel was just an example.

 

So YES you will still see these effects a year from now.  They will close the hole, but all the players and guilds who benefited from unlimited cash or resources for a month will still have their illgotten gains.  Once all the keep slots are taken (if they arent already) what happens?  Once crafters have established themselves by selling cheap "high skill" items.. who would fund a new crafter who has to grind his way up and legitimately earn/buy his skillbooks?

 

If it really only takes a few days to 2 weeks to grind an endgame character why not just wipe the server to start everyone fresh? 

ChinaCat

Originally posted by BLittmanEsq

Originally posted by ChinaCat

So what exactly is the point of bringing up what DFO or any other game experienced?    This is Mortal Online with its own unique mistakes and bugs/exploits.    Either suggest a solution or you merely become part of the problem.

Where DFO is concerned, I agree, release in EU was riddled with absurd bugs and ways to skill up that only required macroing; but at least there was a 1,000 times more of game there to play.   The redeeming part of that fiasco was the release of a NA Server where mechanics were changed allowing players to skill up to comparable levels before any one was allowed to transfer from EU to NA well after 6-months (if I recall correctly) after NA was brought up.

MO is a mess.  It's only been up 30-days.  Do you really want to use other games as an excuse, or would it perhaps be more productive to focus on this game and suggest how it can get back on track?

Short of a server wipe, I don't see it, and for the record, I suggested the same thing many times after DFO launched.

-CC

I'm not the one who brought up DFO, I was simply refuting Slapshot's claim that this vendor bug is worse than anything that happened in DFO.

 

And a server wipe would be ridiculous;  are you really saying that this bug will have a lasting effect in MO in a year?   I really, really doubt it.

Well, do we know how long this steel bug has been in the game?   Even a day would have dramatic effects, but do we know how long it's been around?

It's not just about the steel, which is HUGE in itself.   Look at the list;  1)  All skill books 10s and available at all libraries upon release; 2) Infinite durability on starter axes, 3) Infinite Nodes; and the list goes on.    All of this has changed since release leaving an economy that is a mess and a playing field that is the anti-thesis of level.

What is particularly troubling is how simple 1, 2 & 3 would have been and should of been addressed prior to release.  Those are not software code intensive time-sinks that couldn't make it in by release.  Those are reflections of developers who either intentionally made a really bad call to give some an advantage, or lacked the sobriety to release their game with the rules that are supposed to be part of its so called "vision".

A year?    Sorry, the game has been out for 30-days and a wipe and additional 30-days of free game time would be the right thing to do and accepted by the players.      It's moot as I don't expect SRV to do much of any thing but claim they fixed the problem and the fanbois to take up the cheerleader position of "it doesn't matter, the game owns"

-CC

BLittmanEsq

Originally posted by ChinaCat

Originally posted by BLittmanEsq

Originally posted by ChinaCat

So what exactly is the point of bringing up what DFO or any other game experienced?    This is Mortal Online with its own unique mistakes and bugs/exploits.    Either suggest a solution or you merely become part of the problem.

Where DFO is concerned, I agree, release in EU was riddled with absurd bugs and ways to skill up that only required macroing; but at least there was a 1,000 times more of game there to play.   The redeeming part of that fiasco was the release of a NA Server where mechanics were changed allowing players to skill up to comparable levels before any one was allowed to transfer from EU to NA well after 6-months (if I recall correctly) after NA was brought up.

MO is a mess.  It's only been up 30-days.  Do you really want to use other games as an excuse, or would it perhaps be more productive to focus on this game and suggest how it can get back on track?

Short of a server wipe, I don't see it, and for the record, I suggested the same thing many times after DFO launched.

-CC

I'm not the one who brought up DFO, I was simply refuting Slapshot's claim that this vendor bug is worse than anything that happened in DFO.

 

And a server wipe would be ridiculous;  are you really saying that this bug will have a lasting effect in MO in a year?   I really, really doubt it.

Well, do we know how long this steel bug has been in the game?   Even a day would have dramatic effects, but do we know how long it's been around?

It's not just about the steel, which is HUGE in itself.   Look at the list;  1)  All skill books 10s and available at all libraries upon release; 2) Infinite durability on starter axes, 3) Infinite Nodes; and the list goes on.    All of this has changed since release leaving an economy that is a mess and a playing field that is the anti-thesis of level.

What is particularly troubling is how simple 1, 2 & 3 would have been and should of been addressed prior to release.  Those are not software code intensive time-sinks that couldn't make it in by release.  Those are reflections of developers who either intentionally made a really bad call to give some an advantage, or lacked the sobriety to release their game with the rules that are supposed to be part of its so called "vision".

A year?    Sorry, the game has been out for 30-days and a wipe and additional 30-days of free game time would be the right thing to do and accepted by the players.      It's moot as I don't expect SRV to do much of any thing but claim they fixed the problem and the fanbois to take up the cheerleader position of "it doesn't matter, the game owns"

-CC

First, I agree that MO could have benefited immensely from delaying launch.  That obviously wasn't a possibility, so arguing it is moot.  Make a sad face and move on.

 

Second, there's always going to be changes in an active MMO, and some of those changes are inevitably going to give an advantage to people who were around before the change.  The problem is you're severely overstating the damage:

 

Some people got books dirt cheap, but even with the higher prices it doesn't take THAT long to grind the gold.  Some people got a head start... bummer, but who cares;  that gold is spent, the steel is being converted to swords and armor that will inevitably lose durability and vanish.  

 

You're right about the last point though... I am a fan of the game, this issue truly doesn't matter, and the game DOES own.

 

Azdul

Originally posted by BLittmanEsq

And a server wipe would be ridiculous;  are you really saying that this bug will have a lasting effect in MO in a year?   I really, really doubt it.

Some UO servers are fucked up to this day because of early dupes.

The duped gold changed hands hundred times - so you can't really blame any particular player, and take away his wealth to "fix" the problem. The problem is that every player from "dupe era" is richer than someone who started playing after the dupe was fixed. Dupe made both cheaters and honest players much richer than they should be for healthy economy.

The only way to fix it is to reboot whole economic system, devaluate "pre-patch" gold and "pre-patch" items, to make sure that everyone starts at the same level after the reboot. If the new content is introduced at the same time - most players won't even complain that their wealth was quietly taken away.

ChinaCat

Originally posted by BLittmanEsq

You're right about the last point though... I am a fan of the game, this issue truly doesn't matter, and the game DOES own.

 

You can't possibly argue that none of this matters for a new player, so you're really only hurting yourself as in the end the few of you that rationalize every issue are not enough to support this game, and MO is in dire need of support as it is not even remotely close to release standards; but good luck to you.

-CC

Toferio

lol maerlyn..

"For a couple of hours it was possible to replicate materials due to a bug in the gamecode.

Sadly this bug has been exploited by some people before it was fixed a few hours ago."

 

This bug was around for days, not hours..

http://www.mortalonline.com/forums/49388-exploit-incident-july-10th.html

gatheris

Originally posted by Toferio

lol maerlyn..

"For a couple of hours it was possible to replicate materials due to a bug in the gamecode.

Sadly this bug has been exploited by some people before it was fixed a few hours ago."

 

This bug was around for days, not hours..

http://www.mortalonline.com/forums/49388-exploit-incident-july-10th.html

 i wonder if he was actually trying for a joke here

the problem has been around for a minimum of a week when it was reported and probably since launch - sad that the community manager is taking the route of lying to the players

if they wipe i give them a thumbs up - anything short of that is a continuation of the aforementioned "joke"

 

have counted 5 locked threads on this subject so far - at least they are not hiding the issue, you just can't talk about it

Slapshot1188

Originally posted by gatheris

 

the problem has been around for a minimum of a week when it was reported and probably since launch - sad that the community manager is taking the route of lying to the players

if they wipe i give them a thumbs up - anything short of that is a continuation of the aforementioned "joke"

 

 

 I agree.. but what really matters is what the subscribers think.  If they keep enough of them happy by banning a small handful of the worst offenders and letting the players and guilds keep their ill gotten gains... then that's the route they will take.  Fairness isn't really part of the equation.  

 

That said.. if they don't wipe anyone even slightly considering joining should take a good hard look at how this is handled.