in the currently used anti-exploit principal (not only in this game but every game i know) success depends on being fast and being just. It is the right thing to try and silence topics explaining exploit mechanics IF you are fast in removing the exploit and just in punishing the exploiters.
If you are slow, whatever you do to silence you'll fail, resulting in mass number of people knowing/using the exploit. ( i thought comboskipping was a feature and male bears stronger by design *confused*) At that point(read. 6+ months later) you cant really punish anyone, which results in you punishing the ones who didnt use the said exploit. (ironic isnt it?)
there are alot of exploits in the game, Funcom sadly cant act fast enough, probably they lack the manpower.
Its like what gd said. they have this "to do list" and the issues are listed according to their importance. Conan.exe not working; top on the list, your hair color (or its presence); at the bottom.
Its just biting off more than you can chew problem actually.
The issue with discussing game exploits is pretty much the same as in discussing various OS and applications weaknesses that allow hackers and others to gain access to your system.
On one side you have the Software makers who feel that discussing it at any level just provides more information and interest to the evil doers and on the other you have the people that want to talk about it with the idea that publishing the information will encourage vendors to fix their products sooner.
As usual the reality is somewhere in the middle. Exploiters are going to do it no matter what and they have their own ways of getting and sharing information. Software companies have lots of things to do and only want to spend time and money on things that either they must do or that will earn them more money. Not allowing people to discuss it is just ignoring the issue and doesn't really solve anything. So more discussion will always be better in the long run than suppression and hoping the problem will go away.
As for @ Tranca. I don't hate russians, why would I? They gave us world war 2 win and vodka for rainy days. For more rainy days they gave us the very definition of melancholy found in their books. And they are still giving us beatiful women and an exotic locations to travel. I don't hate russians, more likely I love them.
I am just stating facts that were true prior to RC domination. Around the time of server merge when Fury (e)merged. They (along with AD and Hamanx) used variety of exploits in order to achieve what some other guilds had. It is also only logical to think that the very code of the server was corrupted in the process since Crom players are not experiencing same kind of troubles with bigger server load. - Nihce
Every guild in every game has people willing to exploit. You are generalising. Nastrandir have far more exploiters in their ranks than the Russians ever had. That doesn't mean that ALL Nastrandir are cheats.
The idea you put forward that we (RUS corp) managed to corrupt the server code is beyond preposterous and merits no further attention.
just made a long post and than stupid forum died. i am outtie
Oh yes, learned that lesson to many times. Some advice that I do whenever I post... Copy what you wrote to clipboard before hitting submit. This has saved my bacon many times.
Well that and block to certain people goes a long way to enjoying this site.
Point is "Jesus Walking" has been going on since 2008 and is widely available to see via You-Tube. This grants a huge advantage to PVP'ers in WS where they can get an astronomical k/d ration. I've emailed evidence of this to GMs and the response was "action has been taken, but we can't tell you what action." Meanwhile, this same user logs on each night to taunt me saying "see I'm still here...you're an idiot" and then racks up another x kills that night using same exploit. Oh and apparently, this user is a known exploiter...I heard in global "half the server knows so-and-so exploits".
Again, for the hard-headed, this exploit has been rampant FOR 2 YEARS and there are guides on how to do it (just google such name...and don't infer that I am providing instructions how to do so because IF FC gave a SHITE about these, they would have stopped them 2 years AGO!). I, myself, would not/will not do such a thing because I firmly believe that games should be played fairly...an unjust advantage ruins the online experience (I can't even count the online games ruined by people willing to cheat).
So, in all fairness, FC, from what I can see (and numerous others will agree) isn't doing SHITE about these exploits. Why? They either don't care -or- it's to their benefit to keep them in.
-exploits aren't allowed to be reported because when you report an exploit publically you publish the strategy to use it
because that same exploit can't be recorded and placed on youtube or another website for people to learn how to abuse right? that is completely ridiculous reasoning and totally counter productive to not report it to the devs.
-exploits aren't allowed to be reported because when you report an exploit publically you publish the strategy to use it
because that same exploit can't be recorded and placed on youtube or another website for people to learn how to abuse right? that is completely ridiculous reasoning and totally counter productive to not report it to the devs.
Exploits can't be reported on the game forums or in a public way, they should be submitted as a private ticket only you and the company sees.
And just because something can be posted somewhere on the internet doesn't mean it can be posted everywhere, e.g. I doubt I can post rotten.com images in this reply.
like he said. and yes your argument about it being on youtube is not valid.
It is quite valid. If people wanted to find out and abuse exploits they can easily find it through simple google searching or on a youtube video. I've seen it done for years and years. Banning someone just because they brought it up on the official forums to let the devs know about it is definitely not the right thing to do and will just tarnish your reputation and we can see that as clear as day for this particular game.
like he said. and yes your argument about it being on youtube is not valid.
Why not? Because Funcom says so? Can't you be a little critical towards your beloved company? As they have been proving continuously, this policy of silencing and censorship doesn't benefit them in the slightest. It's only hypocrisy that anyone can find these exploits via google or youtube, yet can't say a word about them on the official forum. Ask any Futilez member or people from Fury who have been sending private messages and tickets to the developers - nothing ever comes out of it, just the usual "don't talk about it" or "we are working on it but have no eta".
like he said. and yes your argument about it being on youtube is not valid.
It is quite valid. If people wanted to find out and abuse exploits they can easily find it through simple google searching or on a youtube video. I've seen it done for years and years. Banning someone just because they brought it up on the official forums to let the devs know about it is definitely not the right thing to do and will just tarnish your reputation and we can see that as clear as day for this particular game.
No, you got it wrong, it's the other way around: people hate the game/company or have a tarnished image of them and THAT's why they see any action, inaction and comment from Funcom negatively.
Any positive point gets downplayed, ridiculed or in some twisted way made negative, any negative point gets highlighted and repeated again and again and again.
Of course, not everyone that has criticism is a hater, but you can recognize the haters very quickly, they're the ones who cannot tolerate any good being said about a game or its company, who don't have any good or positive to say about the game and company, and who will always hammer on the negative stuff and turn the subject into an anti game/company rant.
As if hacks, exploits and bots aren't happening in other MMO's and online games.
Personally, I'd wish they would fix the exploits that are discovered quicker or at least reverse any unnatural progress that can only be a result of hacks or exploits. But the describing exploits being bannable on their forums, I don't find it that strange. Rather they'd like to have it removed everywhere to prevent it from becoming common knowledge, but since they don't have influence over youtube or other forums, they can only enforce it on their own forums.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I am truly glad that someone else is finding the time to explain my logic and I don't need to do it myself.
Just a note to what was written: @johnsavant, in the problem underlined you forgot on basics of logical argument - that is relevance. I don't see how it is relevant to connect the fact that AoC devs respond slow on exploits and the type of report they offer for submitting bugs. It is clear that their slow response to exploits is a consequence to priority lists, which are a consequence (or rather a solution) to smaller work force than demanded. I must add that while certain exploits stay in game for a while, most major ones are ironed out reasonably fast - within the limits, ofc. Noone should expect the response time Blizz has with many more employees. The slow response is NOT a consequence to wrong system used for reporting bugs, that should be evident enough that I would not need to explicitly say it.
Even more, one could argue that an automated system that gathers exploit reports is far more effective than the discussion of them on forums. Purely because this way no exploit is overlooked, which can happen rather fast in forums that is visited and used by thousands of users.
As far as gray area "exploits" goes - avoiding knockback, combo moulding ... they unintentionally offered a new challenge to the players and I am sure that the amount of players complaining about comboskipping (the correct term is combomoulding, skipping is something else) would be equal to the amount of players complaining about fixing it. It added a new dimension especcialy to PVP and certain classes would be very underpowered if they fixed it (take BS for example - he already is low on dmg without applying CAx5 ... without combo skipping he would deal no dmg whatsoever) ... not to mention there is no quick fix for combomoulding - it would require a total revamp of all BS combos, certain barb combos conq combos
There is no GOOD in censoring exploit reports on forums and banning people who actually report them and persons involved in executing them. Like someone said, there is actually some guy who is bragging that he is utilizing this Jesus Walking exploit for a year now ... Where do you see this good? Because FC says it is? Well, after all they've done, their word equals to nothingness itself.
Cool story about "combomoulding" - it's a feature. Let's say siege crashes are a feature because it gives some shitty guilds constant advantage with BK inv or something ... Justifying incompetence much? Kind of like polishing a turd, eh?
You don't see the relevance in submitting exploits to forum? Isn't it a constant practice in AoC that players have to unanimously and in droves make over 9000 posts for something to get done, like pve additions, more faction rep gain, pvp feature (Bori was a result of Fury players making hundreds of topics and posts, this is also the reason why FC can now use an excuse that it was "their" fault since they had to "rush" this pvp content because of "them")? Oh, it is. Loads of this stuff, especially exploits, could've been avoided by simply dropping NDA sooner in the first place, and not one day before expansion (like the original version).
Just because you don't see the relevance in forum feedback and public discussions of said things, doesn't mean there is no relevance. You only had dealings with FC and now think you can apply their twisted logic and incompetence to any MMO out there. There's more feedback about the state of the game in Cataclysm beta from outside sources (people who aren't in) than it is right now in AoC (not to mention RotGS beta where there was like ZERO feedback and 90% had to buy the game to see if good old AoC delivered what they had promised).
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
There is no GOOD in censoring exploit reports on forums and banning people who actually report them and persons involved in executing them. Like someone said, there is actually some guy who is bragging that he is utilizing this Jesus Walking exploit for a year now ... Where do you see this good? Because FC says it is? Well, after all they've done, their word equals to nothingness itself.
Cool story about "combomoulding" - it's a feature. Let's say siege crashes are a feature because it gives some shitty guilds constant advantage with BK inv or something ... Justifying incompetence much? Kind of like polishing a turd, eh?
You don't see the relevance in submitting exploits to forum? Isn't it a constant practice in AoC that players have to unanimously and in droves make over 9000 posts for something to get done, like pve additions, more faction rep gain, pvp feature (Bori was a result of Fury players making hundreds of topics and posts, this is also the reason why FC can now use an excuse that it was "their" fault since they had to "rush" this pvp content because of "them")? Oh, it is. Loads of this stuff, especially exploits, could've been avoided by simply dropping NDA sooner in the first place, and not one day before expansion (like the original version).
Just because you don't see the relevance in forum feedback and public discussions of said things, doesn't mean there is no relevance. You only had dealings with FC and now think you can apply their twisted logic and incompetence to any MMO out there. There's more feedback about the state of the game in Cataclysm beta from outside sources (people who aren't in) than it is right now in AoC (not to mention RotGS beta where there was like ZERO feedback and 90% had to buy the game to see if good old AoC delivered what they had promised).
I see cyphers gave up so it's time for me to return the favor (kinda hoped that he would answer in depth so I don't need to).:
-nobody said FC response is GOOD. It is OK but still seriously need some work on certain areas. Now, I must admit I never heard or saw this exploit, which is weird at best. I might have just not realised what is going on but still ... normally water was safe. Interesting exploit. You say it has been around for years? I hardly believe that but it is possible
-combomoulding: what is the difference between a system that improves the game intentionally and a system that does so unintentionally? The point is that it IMPROVES gameplay of some classes (some claim that it makes them overpowered but this is just newbies talking who probably never played group game in there lives). It is not about disadventage really - mainly it improves barb dps (which is a shitty class altogether) and BS dps/loading the CA (BS is very low on dps chart and only with this feature BS even has a chance to get some kills in for example minis). Admitedly BS is a beast 1vs1 but all changes in pvp in last year showed us that FC does not care about 1v1 balance at all
- You see ... there is a chance that certain exploit gets reported even more by tickets. Why is that? Well first thing that could make me draw that conclusion is the fact that 100% of players play the game while only a certain percent is active on forums. Next, one could argue that an angry player who just got disadvantaged by other player using exploit is more likely to report an exploit through ticket (painless process) than log out of a game, login to forum and create a post about it. Which one is more likely? And more ... FC is obviously very busy with all departments (or they are world best slackers) - what do you think if only way to catch exploits would be through forums?
-why on earth would you compare a market miracle to some game that is faaar from that? This is like saying that Facebook has more activity than glasuj zame and be actually surprised by it.
(now go play the game you love. every single hater other than you gave up discussing with me because I respond with arguments while you guys go on and on with semitrue or nonrelevant statements you call facts... let me just give an example of nonrelevant statement, or at least of one that is not proven to be relevant "the tree fell because there was rain" . Like your statement (which is the one I critisised about relevancy btw and not the mess you made up above) "there are many active exploits, therefore the reporting system does not work". There are many factors included and it is MUCH more likely that FC is simply understaffed doing the best they can eliminating the worst exploits ... Sure, it could be that your reason is the right one, but it is just like the tree would fall because of rain. There is small chance of that but there are others much more plausable reasons for the tree to fall. (logic 101 btw)
You are simply basing their incompetence on your personal opinion, such as "they are understaffed" or "the exploits are fixes for some classes", basically a fanboy logic at its best. This constitues neither "logic 101" nor a feasible argument.
These "haters", as you so one-sidedly call them, are far from done arguing, it is again only your false perception that dictates this. Just browse through the official forum and you'll see day by day "haters" multiplying like mushrooms "because of rain". And this MMORPG.com is far from being a domain where you can claim victory over anything. If you truly wish to be the ultimate ensign of Funcom, then the official forum beckons you. Claiming any victory here over "haters" is like trying to argue that your beloved "tree fell because of the rain".
Says a guy who writes "more empty" posts than Sirillion or even E.E. Oh, and ignorance is no argument, just because you know next to nothing about this Jesus-walking exploit or the policies of Blizzard, doesn't mean you're right. And it's only laughable that everytime I mention Blizzard, all you do is revert to primitive quantities, such as "they have more money and more people, durr hurr", and pay little attention how a company successfully combats exploits and bugs. No, it's not just mere quantity, my dear boy, but also the policy, and what you and cyphers don't seem to be realizing is that this same FC policy from 2008 is only hindering their bug-fixing abilities. FC has enough people to run AO and develop TSW, yet they're understaffed for fixing exploits that are a year old?
If you simply base your argument on quantity, then how would games like Aventurine or Fallen Earth ever get anything done?
P.S. btw, ad hominem is not always a logical fallacy per se, because interlocutor's beliefs, motives, etc. can be quite relevant to the issue at hand. Funny how you seem to also revert to some medieval textbook of logic when you simply feel like it.
This is not true. (speccialy not the part about my empty posts - while I give arguments and support my claims to the extent you cannot chalenge them I constantly do that with your posts ... which is empty than?)
And something else is not true. Ad hominem cannot be used in ANY situation. For example you can be a known liar but your statement has to be verified with examining the argument - saying "oh, you are a liar therefore you lie" is a typical ad hominem.
You always show a clear agenda that WoW means "no go" and find yourself in silly conclusions that just because they have more money, they can do thing better than FC, meaning quantity (there are also clear-cut examples of sheer idiocy when basing an entire judgement of the game on "cartoonish graphics"). Obviously, realizing that any connection you make with WoW is just hater-logic supreme, makes ad hominem pretty much pertinent. That is why you came up with some bizarre connections with Facebook and Glasuj Zame. My ad hominem came a posteriori, not a priori, major difference.
It is clearly FC's policy that fails them to not only react in time but to fix things in the first place. This Jesus-walking exploit and some guy bragging about in chat - two examples present since launch. When I played the game during summer and beyond in 2008, same stuff was happening, people even bragging in general channels how they exploited this and that raid, yet when contacting a GM or making a forum report, you had to and still have to go through some entirely unnecessary red tape that results in almost the same mismanagement and incompetence as Stalinist Russia had.
Having NDA even one day before launch (RotGS managed to repeat the same mistake, ergo shitty waves of overpowered ninjas that constitute "trash" in tier 4), "Tahi"-type of censorship on the forum when the game was in utter crisis, game director focusing on pve and forgetting about Fury in the process, FC's red tape protecting the "rights" of exploiters, etc. ("ok, we'll ban you for posting the name of the exploiter on the forum, but we still need more investigation to do something about the exploiter" - all that and more, quality of management, or rather, lack of.
You always show a clear agenda that WoW means "no go" and find yourself in silly conclusions that just because they have more money, they can do thing better than FC, meaning quantity (there are also clear-cut examples of sheer idiocy when basing an entire judgement of the game on "cartoonish graphics"). Obviously, realizing that any connection you make with WoW is just hater-logic supreme, makes ad hominem pretty much pertinent. That is why you came up with some bizarre connections with Facebook and Glasuj Zame. My ad hominem came a posteriori, not a priori, major difference.
It is clearly FC's policy that fails them to not only react in time but to fix things in the first place. This Jesus-walking exploit and some guy bragging about in chat - two examples present since launch. When I played the game during summer and beyond in 2008, same stuff was happening, people even bragging in general channels how they exploited this and that raid, yet when contacting a GM or making a forum report, you had to and still have to go through some entirely unnecessary red tape that results in almost the same mismanagement and incompetence as Stalinist Russia had.
Having NDA even one day before launch (RotGS managed to repeat the same mistake, ergo shitty waves of overpowered ninjas that constitute "trash" in tier 4), "Tahi"-type of censorship on the forum when the game was in utter crisis, game director focusing on pve and forgetting about Fury in the process, FC's red tape protecting the "rights" of exploiters, etc. ("ok, we'll ban you for posting the name of the exploiter on the forum, but we still need more investigation to do something about the exploiter" - all that and more, quality of management, or rather, lack of.
I must admit I thought you are smarter. Lets see
-Can you seriously argue that in a complex AAA game with superior graphics the amount of resources is the same as in, for example Fallen Earth or Darkfall? (even to think about such analogy makes me want to ask you to write your conclusions and than every time rethink them - you are wasting my time with them)
How is me admitting WoW has much faster response with bigger staff hater logic? It is a fact that at the moment AoC cannot respond as fast as WoW does and has to even prioritise things to do.
-Red tape? What red tape? Apart from forum threads deleting there is no "red tape" in game. You simply write a petition, classify it as english and select a class that is exploit report
-oh and your ad hominem is not a posteriori and even than it cannot be used as an argument. You did another ad hominem now for example - "Obviously, realizing that any connection you make with WoW is just hater-logic supreme, makes ad hominem pretty much pertinent. That is why you came up with some bizarre connections with Facebook and Glasuj Zame".
This is just a type of statement that is incorrect. When you argue that I am hater you have to first prove it (or it classifies ad hominem) and than prove the direct (not indirect) connection off said person with the attribute you assigned to him/her. This is off course almost impossible therefore in serious debate people tend to avoid ad hominem at all costs.
-> I have been playing for years and there was NOONE who admitted they are using exploit on global. At least I don't remember anyone. And I played more and on more hardcore servers that you did
-> I am not going to discuss NDA because it is a whole different issue that is not connected with the issue we discuss here and because we have no idea why NDA stays so long with FC games. It would be just kicking in the sand ... not worth my time.
If you want a real bone that is a serious problem instead of your petty little theories - I heard some rumors that exploiters were banned only for 7 days for exploiting Yag. That IMO is a problem that is worthy discussing. Why and how?
Care to tell me why Fallen Earth or Darkfall aren't as complex as AoC? Superior graphics, is that the only reason?
Really cba to search through this forum where and when you directly jumped to opinions, such as "shit-stained WoW" and "don't compare AoC with a game that awards you by doing 50 steps", but we both know you did, and the only conclusion you still cling to is some crazy notion that only quantity, i. e. more staff, more money, matters, and not quality.
Again, just because you didn't see exploits and even people bragging about them, doesn't mean anything. Back in Wildsoul it was much worse, of course, but seeing various reports how after RotGS certain Fury guilds managed to accumulate an unfair amount of AA points, and now also this Jesus-walking exploit, and then how very little is done about it ... really pointless to argue further. The shit's almost the same.
Furthermore, the other issue is that some of these "advantages" can simply be designated as "working mechanic", like that combo-moulding thingy. Some top PvE guild did the Keeper of Artifacts by using some Necro mechanic which can pretty much be categorized as an exploit, but I think it will stay as part of the game (which means a world of hurt for guilds that do not have over 9000 necros available). It appears that the difference between what is part of the normal gaming environment and what is an unfair advantage is not only clear to players, but also to FC, and that makes this game even more ridiculous. And by the time the FC think-tank figures out how to carefully categorize this, it is, of course, too late. For instance, switching to an empty pve server to get that Bori thingy maximize (and then to move back to Fury with pvp level 10), an exploit or working as intended? It's ridiculous either way. There was a situation in WoW where guilds who wanted "server-first" achievements for certain endgame bosses would transfer to a server with not much competition and get it done, and this charade was soon ended when they put some sort of a cooldown for this achievement. I'm not exactly sure how they did it (almost positive it was just a 30-day cooldown after your character gets transferred), but it worked, no more jumping from server to server to gain these achievements. You see, the right policy at the right time, that's all it takes, be it an exploit for them or not.
Red tape? Well, who knows what kind of bureacratic blockade this company has if it takes them forever to respond to tickets and bans you first for posting an exploit on the forum, but preserves the "right" of the exploiter to be unanimous for an indefinite time. And then there's another thing with players needing to open thousands of threads and making thousands of posts just to point out something totally obvious to anyone but a Korean no-lifer --- tone down the faction rep requirements, make everything more humane, could bosses please drop some tokens --- why you need philosophical discussion clubs on the forum to get this message across is beyond me.
"I must admit I thought you are smarter. Lets see"
Well, gee, I must admit that anyone with more IQ than an amoeba stopped playing AoC ages ago. See what I did there ...
I see cyphers gave up so it's time for me to return the favor (kinda hoped that he would answer in depth so I don't need to).:
Lol. I'm not hanging around these forums every day
Besides, as someone else posted, haters will hate.
It's not about the arguments for them or objectively weighing good and bad stuff, it's about their grudge and how their hate distorts their entire vision until they see everything dark and negative.
Waste of time and attention, you're only feeding their urge, some might even in some weird way get satisfaction out of it.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
i see the argument has moved to the domain of "why they are not allowing reporting exploiters on forums?"
John, nihce is right. They cant allow reporting on official forums. Let aside the fact that it will be a lot more clumsy/buggy reporting system it will also cause unjust naming and shaming. many times in pvp i was called "cheater, exploiter", many times people in my group called people "cheaters" while all they did was kicking our butts in a more organized way. Its the same in rl, innocent until proven guilty.
Funcom is rather slow in fixing bugs/exploits though. I wonder why. I know they are liers, can they also be incompetent?
Can any funcom rep. answer me this? Are you guys incompetent liers, is this why you dont or cant remove those exploits?
ps. lol at "its not a bug its a feature" comments. go go fanbois!
Comments
in the currently used anti-exploit principal (not only in this game but every game i know) success depends on being fast and being just. It is the right thing to try and silence topics explaining exploit mechanics IF you are fast in removing the exploit and just in punishing the exploiters.
If you are slow, whatever you do to silence you'll fail, resulting in mass number of people knowing/using the exploit. ( i thought comboskipping was a feature and male bears stronger by design *confused*) At that point(read. 6+ months later) you cant really punish anyone, which results in you punishing the ones who didnt use the said exploit. (ironic isnt it?)
there are alot of exploits in the game, Funcom sadly cant act fast enough, probably they lack the manpower.
Its like what gd said. they have this "to do list" and the issues are listed according to their importance. Conan.exe not working; top on the list, your hair color (or its presence); at the bottom.
Its just biting off more than you can chew problem actually.
I need more vespene gas.
The issue with discussing game exploits is pretty much the same as in discussing various OS and applications weaknesses that allow hackers and others to gain access to your system.
On one side you have the Software makers who feel that discussing it at any level just provides more information and interest to the evil doers and on the other you have the people that want to talk about it with the idea that publishing the information will encourage vendors to fix their products sooner.
As usual the reality is somewhere in the middle. Exploiters are going to do it no matter what and they have their own ways of getting and sharing information. Software companies have lots of things to do and only want to spend time and money on things that either they must do or that will earn them more money. Not allowing people to discuss it is just ignoring the issue and doesn't really solve anything. So more discussion will always be better in the long run than suppression and hoping the problem will go away.
just made a long post and than stupid forum died. i am outtie
As for @ Tranca. I don't hate russians, why would I? They gave us world war 2 win and vodka for rainy days. For more rainy days they gave us the very definition of melancholy found in their books. And they are still giving us beatiful women and an exotic locations to travel. I don't hate russians, more likely I love them.
I am just stating facts that were true prior to RC domination. Around the time of server merge when Fury (e)merged. They (along with AD and Hamanx) used variety of exploits in order to achieve what some other guilds had. It is also only logical to think that the very code of the server was corrupted in the process since Crom players are not experiencing same kind of troubles with bigger server load. - Nihce
Every guild in every game has people willing to exploit. You are generalising. Nastrandir have far more exploiters in their ranks than the Russians ever had. That doesn't mean that ALL Nastrandir are cheats.
The idea you put forward that we (RUS corp) managed to corrupt the server code is beyond preposterous and merits no further attention.
Tranca [RUS corp]
Oh yes, learned that lesson to many times. Some advice that I do whenever I post... Copy what you wrote to clipboard before hitting submit. This has saved my bacon many times.
Well that and block to certain people goes a long way to enjoying this site.
.. .... .- - . - .-. --- .-.. .-.. ... .-- .... --- .-. . .--. --- .-. - .-.-.-
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Promote what you love instead of bashing what you hate.
Point is "Jesus Walking" has been going on since 2008 and is widely available to see via You-Tube. This grants a huge advantage to PVP'ers in WS where they can get an astronomical k/d ration. I've emailed evidence of this to GMs and the response was "action has been taken, but we can't tell you what action." Meanwhile, this same user logs on each night to taunt me saying "see I'm still here...you're an idiot" and then racks up another x kills that night using same exploit. Oh and apparently, this user is a known exploiter...I heard in global "half the server knows so-and-so exploits".
Again, for the hard-headed, this exploit has been rampant FOR 2 YEARS and there are guides on how to do it (just google such name...and don't infer that I am providing instructions how to do so because IF FC gave a SHITE about these, they would have stopped them 2 years AGO!). I, myself, would not/will not do such a thing because I firmly believe that games should be played fairly...an unjust advantage ruins the online experience (I can't even count the online games ruined by people willing to cheat).
So, in all fairness, FC, from what I can see (and numerous others will agree) isn't doing SHITE about these exploits. Why? They either don't care -or- it's to their benefit to keep them in.
That is a neither childish nor inmature response.
because that same exploit can't be recorded and placed on youtube or another website for people to learn how to abuse right? that is completely ridiculous reasoning and totally counter productive to not report it to the devs.
Exploits can't be reported on the game forums or in a public way, they should be submitted as a private ticket only you and the company sees.
And just because something can be posted somewhere on the internet doesn't mean it can be posted everywhere, e.g. I doubt I can post rotten.com images in this reply.
like he said. and yes your argument about it being on youtube is not valid.
It is quite valid. If people wanted to find out and abuse exploits they can easily find it through simple google searching or on a youtube video. I've seen it done for years and years. Banning someone just because they brought it up on the official forums to let the devs know about it is definitely not the right thing to do and will just tarnish your reputation and we can see that as clear as day for this particular game.
Why not? Because Funcom says so? Can't you be a little critical towards your beloved company? As they have been proving continuously, this policy of silencing and censorship doesn't benefit them in the slightest. It's only hypocrisy that anyone can find these exploits via google or youtube, yet can't say a word about them on the official forum. Ask any Futilez member or people from Fury who have been sending private messages and tickets to the developers - nothing ever comes out of it, just the usual "don't talk about it" or "we are working on it but have no eta".
No, you got it wrong, it's the other way around: people hate the game/company or have a tarnished image of them and THAT's why they see any action, inaction and comment from Funcom negatively.
Any positive point gets downplayed, ridiculed or in some twisted way made negative, any negative point gets highlighted and repeated again and again and again.
Of course, not everyone that has criticism is a hater, but you can recognize the haters very quickly, they're the ones who cannot tolerate any good being said about a game or its company, who don't have any good or positive to say about the game and company, and who will always hammer on the negative stuff and turn the subject into an anti game/company rant.
As if hacks, exploits and bots aren't happening in other MMO's and online games.
Personally, I'd wish they would fix the exploits that are discovered quicker or at least reverse any unnatural progress that can only be a result of hacks or exploits. But the describing exploits being bannable on their forums, I don't find it that strange. Rather they'd like to have it removed everywhere to prevent it from becoming common knowledge, but since they don't have influence over youtube or other forums, they can only enforce it on their own forums.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I am truly glad that someone else is finding the time to explain my logic and I don't need to do it myself.
Just a note to what was written: @johnsavant, in the problem underlined you forgot on basics of logical argument - that is relevance. I don't see how it is relevant to connect the fact that AoC devs respond slow on exploits and the type of report they offer for submitting bugs. It is clear that their slow response to exploits is a consequence to priority lists, which are a consequence (or rather a solution) to smaller work force than demanded. I must add that while certain exploits stay in game for a while, most major ones are ironed out reasonably fast - within the limits, ofc. Noone should expect the response time Blizz has with many more employees. The slow response is NOT a consequence to wrong system used for reporting bugs, that should be evident enough that I would not need to explicitly say it.
Even more, one could argue that an automated system that gathers exploit reports is far more effective than the discussion of them on forums. Purely because this way no exploit is overlooked, which can happen rather fast in forums that is visited and used by thousands of users.
As far as gray area "exploits" goes - avoiding knockback, combo moulding ... they unintentionally offered a new challenge to the players and I am sure that the amount of players complaining about comboskipping (the correct term is combomoulding, skipping is something else) would be equal to the amount of players complaining about fixing it. It added a new dimension especcialy to PVP and certain classes would be very underpowered if they fixed it (take BS for example - he already is low on dmg without applying CAx5 ... without combo skipping he would deal no dmg whatsoever) ... not to mention there is no quick fix for combomoulding - it would require a total revamp of all BS combos, certain barb combos conq combos
There is no GOOD in censoring exploit reports on forums and banning people who actually report them and persons involved in executing them. Like someone said, there is actually some guy who is bragging that he is utilizing this Jesus Walking exploit for a year now ... Where do you see this good? Because FC says it is? Well, after all they've done, their word equals to nothingness itself.
Cool story about "combomoulding" - it's a feature. Let's say siege crashes are a feature because it gives some shitty guilds constant advantage with BK inv or something ... Justifying incompetence much? Kind of like polishing a turd, eh?
You don't see the relevance in submitting exploits to forum? Isn't it a constant practice in AoC that players have to unanimously and in droves make over 9000 posts for something to get done, like pve additions, more faction rep gain, pvp feature (Bori was a result of Fury players making hundreds of topics and posts, this is also the reason why FC can now use an excuse that it was "their" fault since they had to "rush" this pvp content because of "them")? Oh, it is. Loads of this stuff, especially exploits, could've been avoided by simply dropping NDA sooner in the first place, and not one day before expansion (like the original version).
Just because you don't see the relevance in forum feedback and public discussions of said things, doesn't mean there is no relevance. You only had dealings with FC and now think you can apply their twisted logic and incompetence to any MMO out there. There's more feedback about the state of the game in Cataclysm beta from outside sources (people who aren't in) than it is right now in AoC (not to mention RotGS beta where there was like ZERO feedback and 90% had to buy the game to see if good old AoC delivered what they had promised).
It's very simple:
Funcom has made their policy regarding exploits known since 2008, and also revealed the channels how and where to report them.
It's their forums, not yours. If you have your own site and forums, you can enforce your own policy however you like.
If you don't like their forum policy, then don't post there.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I see cyphers gave up so it's time for me to return the favor (kinda hoped that he would answer in depth so I don't need to).:
-nobody said FC response is GOOD. It is OK but still seriously need some work on certain areas. Now, I must admit I never heard or saw this exploit, which is weird at best. I might have just not realised what is going on but still ... normally water was safe. Interesting exploit. You say it has been around for years? I hardly believe that but it is possible
-combomoulding: what is the difference between a system that improves the game intentionally and a system that does so unintentionally? The point is that it IMPROVES gameplay of some classes (some claim that it makes them overpowered but this is just newbies talking who probably never played group game in there lives). It is not about disadventage really - mainly it improves barb dps (which is a shitty class altogether) and BS dps/loading the CA (BS is very low on dps chart and only with this feature BS even has a chance to get some kills in for example minis). Admitedly BS is a beast 1vs1 but all changes in pvp in last year showed us that FC does not care about 1v1 balance at all
- You see ... there is a chance that certain exploit gets reported even more by tickets. Why is that? Well first thing that could make me draw that conclusion is the fact that 100% of players play the game while only a certain percent is active on forums. Next, one could argue that an angry player who just got disadvantaged by other player using exploit is more likely to report an exploit through ticket (painless process) than log out of a game, login to forum and create a post about it. Which one is more likely? And more ... FC is obviously very busy with all departments (or they are world best slackers) - what do you think if only way to catch exploits would be through forums?
-why on earth would you compare a market miracle to some game that is faaar from that? This is like saying that Facebook has more activity than glasuj zame and be actually surprised by it.
(now go play the game you love. every single hater other than you gave up discussing with me because I respond with arguments while you guys go on and on with semitrue or nonrelevant statements you call facts... let me just give an example of nonrelevant statement, or at least of one that is not proven to be relevant "the tree fell because there was rain" . Like your statement (which is the one I critisised about relevancy btw and not the mess you made up above) "there are many active exploits, therefore the reporting system does not work". There are many factors included and it is MUCH more likely that FC is simply understaffed doing the best they can eliminating the worst exploits ... Sure, it could be that your reason is the right one, but it is just like the tree would fall because of rain. There is small chance of that but there are others much more plausable reasons for the tree to fall. (logic 101 btw)
You are simply basing their incompetence on your personal opinion, such as "they are understaffed" or "the exploits are fixes for some classes", basically a fanboy logic at its best. This constitues neither "logic 101" nor a feasible argument.
These "haters", as you so one-sidedly call them, are far from done arguing, it is again only your false perception that dictates this. Just browse through the official forum and you'll see day by day "haters" multiplying like mushrooms "because of rain". And this MMORPG.com is far from being a domain where you can claim victory over anything. If you truly wish to be the ultimate ensign of Funcom, then the official forum beckons you. Claiming any victory here over "haters" is like trying to argue that your beloved "tree fell because of the rain".
empty post and ad hominem.
if anyone is basing their thought on personal experience it is you.
Says a guy who writes "more empty" posts than Sirillion or even E.E. Oh, and ignorance is no argument, just because you know next to nothing about this Jesus-walking exploit or the policies of Blizzard, doesn't mean you're right. And it's only laughable that everytime I mention Blizzard, all you do is revert to primitive quantities, such as "they have more money and more people, durr hurr", and pay little attention how a company successfully combats exploits and bugs. No, it's not just mere quantity, my dear boy, but also the policy, and what you and cyphers don't seem to be realizing is that this same FC policy from 2008 is only hindering their bug-fixing abilities. FC has enough people to run AO and develop TSW, yet they're understaffed for fixing exploits that are a year old?
If you simply base your argument on quantity, then how would games like Aventurine or Fallen Earth ever get anything done?
P.S. btw, ad hominem is not always a logical fallacy per se, because interlocutor's beliefs, motives, etc. can be quite relevant to the issue at hand. Funny how you seem to also revert to some medieval textbook of logic when you simply feel like it.
This is not true. (speccialy not the part about my empty posts - while I give arguments and support my claims to the extent you cannot chalenge them I constantly do that with your posts ... which is empty than?)
And something else is not true. Ad hominem cannot be used in ANY situation. For example you can be a known liar but your statement has to be verified with examining the argument - saying "oh, you are a liar therefore you lie" is a typical ad hominem.
(http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/logic-informal/#One - chapter 9)
What exactly is not true?
You always show a clear agenda that WoW means "no go" and find yourself in silly conclusions that just because they have more money, they can do thing better than FC, meaning quantity (there are also clear-cut examples of sheer idiocy when basing an entire judgement of the game on "cartoonish graphics"). Obviously, realizing that any connection you make with WoW is just hater-logic supreme, makes ad hominem pretty much pertinent. That is why you came up with some bizarre connections with Facebook and Glasuj Zame. My ad hominem came a posteriori, not a priori, major difference.
It is clearly FC's policy that fails them to not only react in time but to fix things in the first place. This Jesus-walking exploit and some guy bragging about in chat - two examples present since launch. When I played the game during summer and beyond in 2008, same stuff was happening, people even bragging in general channels how they exploited this and that raid, yet when contacting a GM or making a forum report, you had to and still have to go through some entirely unnecessary red tape that results in almost the same mismanagement and incompetence as Stalinist Russia had.
Having NDA even one day before launch (RotGS managed to repeat the same mistake, ergo shitty waves of overpowered ninjas that constitute "trash" in tier 4), "Tahi"-type of censorship on the forum when the game was in utter crisis, game director focusing on pve and forgetting about Fury in the process, FC's red tape protecting the "rights" of exploiters, etc. ("ok, we'll ban you for posting the name of the exploiter on the forum, but we still need more investigation to do something about the exploiter" - all that and more, quality of management, or rather, lack of.
I must admit I thought you are smarter. Lets see
-Can you seriously argue that in a complex AAA game with superior graphics the amount of resources is the same as in, for example Fallen Earth or Darkfall? (even to think about such analogy makes me want to ask you to write your conclusions and than every time rethink them - you are wasting my time with them)
How is me admitting WoW has much faster response with bigger staff hater logic? It is a fact that at the moment AoC cannot respond as fast as WoW does and has to even prioritise things to do.
-Red tape? What red tape? Apart from forum threads deleting there is no "red tape" in game. You simply write a petition, classify it as english and select a class that is exploit report
-oh and your ad hominem is not a posteriori and even than it cannot be used as an argument. You did another ad hominem now for example - "Obviously, realizing that any connection you make with WoW is just hater-logic supreme, makes ad hominem pretty much pertinent. That is why you came up with some bizarre connections with Facebook and Glasuj Zame".
This is just a type of statement that is incorrect. When you argue that I am hater you have to first prove it (or it classifies ad hominem) and than prove the direct (not indirect) connection off said person with the attribute you assigned to him/her. This is off course almost impossible therefore in serious debate people tend to avoid ad hominem at all costs.
-> I have been playing for years and there was NOONE who admitted they are using exploit on global. At least I don't remember anyone. And I played more and on more hardcore servers that you did
-> I am not going to discuss NDA because it is a whole different issue that is not connected with the issue we discuss here and because we have no idea why NDA stays so long with FC games. It would be just kicking in the sand ... not worth my time.
If you want a real bone that is a serious problem instead of your petty little theories - I heard some rumors that exploiters were banned only for 7 days for exploiting Yag. That IMO is a problem that is worthy discussing. Why and how?
Care to tell me why Fallen Earth or Darkfall aren't as complex as AoC? Superior graphics, is that the only reason?
Really cba to search through this forum where and when you directly jumped to opinions, such as "shit-stained WoW" and "don't compare AoC with a game that awards you by doing 50 steps", but we both know you did, and the only conclusion you still cling to is some crazy notion that only quantity, i. e. more staff, more money, matters, and not quality.
Again, just because you didn't see exploits and even people bragging about them, doesn't mean anything. Back in Wildsoul it was much worse, of course, but seeing various reports how after RotGS certain Fury guilds managed to accumulate an unfair amount of AA points, and now also this Jesus-walking exploit, and then how very little is done about it ... really pointless to argue further. The shit's almost the same.
Furthermore, the other issue is that some of these "advantages" can simply be designated as "working mechanic", like that combo-moulding thingy. Some top PvE guild did the Keeper of Artifacts by using some Necro mechanic which can pretty much be categorized as an exploit, but I think it will stay as part of the game (which means a world of hurt for guilds that do not have over 9000 necros available). It appears that the difference between what is part of the normal gaming environment and what is an unfair advantage is not only clear to players, but also to FC, and that makes this game even more ridiculous. And by the time the FC think-tank figures out how to carefully categorize this, it is, of course, too late. For instance, switching to an empty pve server to get that Bori thingy maximize (and then to move back to Fury with pvp level 10), an exploit or working as intended? It's ridiculous either way. There was a situation in WoW where guilds who wanted "server-first" achievements for certain endgame bosses would transfer to a server with not much competition and get it done, and this charade was soon ended when they put some sort of a cooldown for this achievement. I'm not exactly sure how they did it (almost positive it was just a 30-day cooldown after your character gets transferred), but it worked, no more jumping from server to server to gain these achievements. You see, the right policy at the right time, that's all it takes, be it an exploit for them or not.
Red tape? Well, who knows what kind of bureacratic blockade this company has if it takes them forever to respond to tickets and bans you first for posting an exploit on the forum, but preserves the "right" of the exploiter to be unanimous for an indefinite time. And then there's another thing with players needing to open thousands of threads and making thousands of posts just to point out something totally obvious to anyone but a Korean no-lifer --- tone down the faction rep requirements, make everything more humane, could bosses please drop some tokens --- why you need philosophical discussion clubs on the forum to get this message across is beyond me.
"I must admit I thought you are smarter. Lets see"
Well, gee, I must admit that anyone with more IQ than an amoeba stopped playing AoC ages ago. See what I did there ...
Lol. I'm not hanging around these forums every day
Besides, as someone else posted, haters will hate.
It's not about the arguments for them or objectively weighing good and bad stuff, it's about their grudge and how their hate distorts their entire vision until they see everything dark and negative.
Waste of time and attention, you're only feeding their urge, some might even in some weird way get satisfaction out of it.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
i see the argument has moved to the domain of "why they are not allowing reporting exploiters on forums?"
John, nihce is right. They cant allow reporting on official forums. Let aside the fact that it will be a lot more clumsy/buggy reporting system it will also cause unjust naming and shaming. many times in pvp i was called "cheater, exploiter", many times people in my group called people "cheaters" while all they did was kicking our butts in a more organized way. Its the same in rl, innocent until proven guilty.
Funcom is rather slow in fixing bugs/exploits though. I wonder why. I know they are liers, can they also be incompetent?
Can any funcom rep. answer me this? Are you guys incompetent liers, is this why you dont or cant remove those exploits?
ps. lol at "its not a bug its a feature" comments. go go fanbois!
I need more vespene gas.