The problem with "Solo-friendly"

Ihmotepp

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

 

Solo friendly games are good, because many people like to play them. If you have fun, the game is good.

Group friendly games are good, because many people like to play them. If you have fun, the game is good.

You cannot design a game that is BOTH solo friendly, AND group friendly, at the same time.

I've said this before. Yes you can.

yes.

Lineage 2 was both solo friendly and group friendly. I mostly soloed in Lineage 2. There were a few things that did require group but overall there was group content and solo content. Group areas and solo areas.

I would state that if one did run in a group then one would be safer and take advantage of safety in numbers.

But the majority of all my levels was done solo. Yes there were people grouping in Cruma, Tower of Insolence, Forge of the Gods, Catas/Necros.

While I was in the Wastes, Forest of Mirrors, Sea of Spores, Forsaken plains. Forest of the Dead (think that was its name).

 

You can solo in EVERY MMORPG.

You can group in EVERY MMORPG.

That fact alone does not make a game group friendly, or solo friendly.

There is no MMORPG that instanly kills your character and gives you ZERO xp if you don't group, but decide to solo.

There is no MMORPG that instanly kills your character and gives you ZERO xp if you decide to group.

Group friendly or solo friendly is determined by the rate of XP made group or solo.

If you make the same XP either way the game is solo friendly. There's no reason to group, therefore no challenging group content. It's an option in the game, like crafting. Do it if you want, don't do it if you don't want to.

If you make more xp solo, it's a solo friendly game.

If you make substantially more xp grouping, it's a group friendly game.

You cannot make more xp solo, and more xp grouping, at the same time.

The XP rate encourages you to engage in one activity or the other. If the XP is the same, the time it takes to group is discouraging you to group, because you are losing XP, even if it's just walking over to meet someone in an area.

If the XP rate is more for grouping, you are encouraged to group for the faster xp.

"Friendly" is the encouragement for one activity or another.

Friendly =/= allows you do do the activity.

You are allowed to group or solo in ALL MMORPGs.

 

Ok, great, then I still hold up Lineage 2 as an example.

They've played around with group bonuses over the years but there are places where you can group and get excellent xp. Heck, there was a point where there were just mage groups going up to Tower of Insolence and hitting wind weak mobs and getting great xp. There were also places where one could solo and get great xp.

It's not a perfect balance and I haven't seen any game with perfect balance, but the truth of it was that people can get cata/necro groups together, get very decent xp and get seal stones. Or they can go to one of the very solo friendly places and get great xp.

There are also places for solo with lousy xp and same for group.

 

Exactly, there is no perfect balance.

Which means the game will be either solo friendly, or group friendly.

It's not POSSIBLE to balance it perfectly, for EVERY player.

CAN get a group is not "group friendly".

You CAN solo EQ. It's not "solo friendly".

I CAN get groups all day long is WoW. It's not "group friendly".

jaxsundane

Originally posted by sfc1971

Recently some MMO companies seem to have embraced the solo-player. When you read the FAQ for Guild Wars 2, they proudly announce "Yes. You will be able to advance your character to the maximum level without ever joining a group if you so desire."

This is odd. Why? Just a few years ago a series of games launched that could ONLY be played with other people. I am talking of course about Multiplayer First Person Shooters. Games like Counterstrike and numerous other mods on single player FPS all could only be played against other people, they had no single player element. Later on even commercial games launched that if you didn't want to play with others, you just couldn't play.

So what has happened with MMO's that games that by their very name suggest playing with others, people want to solo? 

It could be a more individualized society in which many people no longer have the social skills to work together. Working together in a game is after all not the same as a deadmatch or joining a social site. The previous two you can do on your own terms. More so in fact then their old fashioned equivelant. A paintball match requires everyone to agree on a date and has strict rules. You can't shoot the guy sipping a beer in the bar. People with real guns will stop you. And meeting up on facebook is a lot less involved then meeting up in said bar.

But it could also be that the MMO's themselves make grouping needlessly hard. Why drop 1 item in a group instance when you also allow said group instance to be soloed and then that one person gets everything? That is what "Lord of the Rings Online" is currently doing, solo an instance and you get all the rare drops for yourself. Seems an odd way to encourage group play.

Yet is it such a problem to be solo-friendly? That is after all the title of this rant. And yes, I think it is. NOT because you couldn't design a good solo MMORPG, however odd such a game would be, but that current companies just can't get it right.

A game like Lord of the Rings Online has been designed as a group game, were each class has its own weaknesses and is particularly strong against certain type of enemies.

The champ: +light multiple melee enemies -ranged enemies +enemies that rely on inductions

Minstrel: +low dps heavies -multiple anything +human +undead -animals

The champs is the prime solo class, up to a point as there are a few parts where multiple ranged enemies have to be engaged and the champ ain't all that well suited for it.

The minstrel is far less lucky. Some new enemies in Moria self-heal, if that skill isn't interrupted, the minstrel faces an enemy with a full health bar. The minstrel got ONE interrupt, fear, and that one is also needed to deal with multiple mobs. 

The result? The champion can steamroll through content, but gets stuck, he then screams for a minstrel who is stuck far further back. Since solo-players are by definition not capable of thinking "I scratch your back, you scratch mine" the two will never meet up. The champion will demand more solo-friendlyness and the minstrel will give up or only play with friends.

For a game to be solo-friendly, it is NOT enough to just lower the enemy rank, EVERYTHING has to be redesigned. Turbine has done this, a quest that used to have an elite and two regulars now has only two regulars. Easy for a champ, do-able by a minstrel. (V1 Book5 Get the plans) But in the previous book the instance with legolas is a pain in the ass for anyone who is not a champ. Multiple elite mobs. Sure, you won't die with the solo-buff, but it becomes the most boring grind you could ever imagine. Just taking down 12 roots with a single target class is enough to turn people off the game forever.

For Turbine, solo-friendly means taking Counterstrike, putting in the dumbest AI ever found and then selling it as a single player game and four of the levels have you bare-fisted against entrenced snipers and machine gunners. A single player game can be played by a single player. A group game requires a group. Start to mix those two up and you get a game that doesn't appeal to either one. 

The group players get fed up looking for a group because everyone else in the area is soloing it, and the soloers get fed up having to skip content because they can't find anyone willing to play with them.

MMO designers should I think stick to one of three designs:

Single player game with chat lobby, there is a market for this, where the social aspect is trading items, showing of your stats and bragging about how fast you could run an instance. X-box live?

Multiple player group game. You group or you don't play. Each class has its weaknesses and strengths and only together can you overcome the odds. Multiplayer FPS are the closest to it.

Hybrid. But NOT mixing the two, putting the previous two in the same game but seperated. Clear GROUP and clear SOLO content. No epic quests that force a small group, solo, large group, solo in the same hour. When you want to solo, you go to the solo area. When you want to group you head to the group content. Easy travel to gather up and loot drops not designed to encourage greed. 

Current games try to please everyone and end up pleasing nobody. Not because a solo-mmorpg is a bad idea, but because they try to refactor a group game into a solo game and get it horribly wrong. Why does Lotro put a solo quest behind a horde of elites even the best champ can't tackle on his own? Because its designers never figured out the difference between solo and group. They rate a quest based on the end mob, the health bar it has. Not its skills or were it is positioned. 

Don't mix group and solo content up. You don't put the disco and the library in the same room do you?

 If I'm not mistaken FPS games can be played solo they just are by and large played for multiplayer group play but isn't it kind of self serving to state they can only be played in a group?

Silas26

1st thing : I read only half of your post. because I wouldn't remember it by the end of reading it. Good paragraphs, but more summaries please

2nd thing : I think there's only one video game out there that got the solo group play idea in the right way.

Monster hunter tri.

Why?

Because you can progress out of being in a group, lvl-wise as well as gear-wise.

Because levels do not make you better. They are a symbol of strenght and accomplishment.

Because you can do missions to get stuff solo or in duet. No need for the 4 people possible in every game.

Because you get loot EVERY time you kill something. Maybe not what you wanted, but something you can, or will use later on.

 

The reason group play in MMORPG is in decline is because it's a Zone for elitist players. You do not only a party, that can take hours to bring together. You need good partners.

If any of the Key players (Tank, Healer, CC or other important roles) screw, you will die. When it goes fast and well, I love it. Otherwise, it's slow and boring. No need to say I hate it, but I just did. That's why I left MMORPG based on party-play.

atomtan

Originally posted by Dibdabs

Originally posted by UsualSuspect

The problem with solo-friendly games is that it kills community, as can be seen by almost all the replies to this thread. I'll show you what I mean:

• 
  Personally I like to play both ways because sometimes people just make me want to set baby seals on fire.
• 
  It's the fact that the majority of players are whiny, inarticulate and immature - and I'm not referring to age there, by the way - as well as incompetent.
• 
  The problem with going in a group is that not every group member will have the time or patience to wait. Some people just want the quest finished as soon as possible, so they can get their rewards.
• 
  Hey I need a group, you enter, hardly any talk apart from Hi, when quest/mission is done it's Bye. It's actually the grouping in the last several years that has somewhat forced me into a more solo play...
• 
  The noob flakes and loot whores pissed me off so much in that game, I ended up only playing solo. Solo play is valuable. If it wasn't for solo play, I'd have quit many games long before I quit them out of frustration with other people.

All this animosity grows from having solo-friendly games.

Community is simply killed by solo-friendly content. Groups bring people together, they have to learn to interact with each other, to understand how their class works with other classes, friendships are created, people trust other players to help them through content. Until all this "Solo to Max Level" stuff is pushed out of MMO's people are going to continue to be whiny, immature, incompetent, uncaring, loot whores.. because they won't be 'taught' to act any differently.

Wrong, wrong, wrong.  Community is killed by having a way too high level of dickheads in the game.  If the community is moribund, players like me resort to solo play to avoid the cretins - not because we wish to solo, per se.  The groups I have joined in most games have actively driven out any urge I have to join/form a group, and most DEFINITELY fail at bringing people together.  I started off as being happy to group, many years ago and was in a warm, friendly guild, then when people moved out to newer games - as did I - I got to the point where the people just weren't worth my time or effort on any level of interaction you could name. 

At the moment, Perpetuum is the only game in YEARS I have enjoyed grouping and chatting in. Good community, you see - not yet ruined by an influx of people that I wouldn't even want to sit next to on a bus, never mind interact with.  It's like the good old days as I remember them - helpful, ethusiastic people in chat, groups who - incredibly - might pool all the loot they've gathered into a Field Canister, and amicably share the loot out afterwards with each other without grumbles and whining. Incredible. Hell, I'll team up with a newbie, blast the crap out of everything and let them get all the loot, purely because I once again, for the first time in YEARS, get a kick out of helping players who are appreciative, talkative and who go on to pay good deeds forward by helping others in turn.

I bet my bottom dollar it will not last, though.  When the closed Beta ends, I'm concerned that the enthusiasts will be overrun with f**kwits, and the community will rapidly wither.  Hopefully the relatively steep learning curve will discourage most of them, but I'm not holding my breath.

One final thing... Perpetuum IS that sort of game which is solo AND group friendly.  You can solo as a Miner, maybe concentrate on Production or simply be a Hunter/Looter.  You can, however, do any or all of these better as a group, and in fact things go much better if players form a Player Corp and pool resources or assign themselves to roles in the Corp that fit their play-style.  Now you don't see that much these days - and yes, after several years of being driven to solo play because of the shitty playerbase most games have, I have in fact joined a very friendly Corp and I am once again having a blast.  I really hope things stay this way....

 Agreed.

I used to enjoy grouping up with folks, even if it was just to travel from Point A to Point B.  I was with a group of people who all shared at least one thing in common, we all enjoyed playing the game.

WoW was a game that was not on my radar at release because I didn't really enjoy the Warcraft series.  It took a friend of over 20 years about 6 hours to convince me that this was a game I should play.  For the first few months it was a blast.  I was about to move a couple hours away from my friends and thought it would be a great way to simulate those spontaneous LAN parties we used to have since quite a few of my friends who I had grown up with were playing.  Then, it seemed to happen overnight, I logged in and the atmosphere of the guild chat (the guild was made up of real-life friends and friends of friends) had severely changed.  Suddenly, it was time to get serious.  DKP, Stats, schedules of when people HAVE to log in and for how many hours, if you don't have X gear then you can't roll with us.  The Vent server was also plagued with this.  At the time I wasn't in the mood for that (I had just gotten home from work), and decided to try out one of the RP servers....same deal.

This sort of attitude has plagued so many otherwise great games, and along with it comes the rude and immature behavior.  So, yeah, if given the choice of spending significantly more time doing something by myself or doing it quicker with these folks, I will choose the solo experience everytime.  Hell, EA's Tiger Woods Golf Online was filled with these jerkoff's.

But, don't get me wrong, there are quite a few diamonds in the rough out there who remind me of why I got into MMO's in the first place.  I'm currently playing APB, and have seen some of these like-minded folks floating around the game and the forums.  They, along with I, have accepted that our Threat Level will never reach above 5 because we don't marathon the game, and therefore are constantly taken down by foes.  But, we log in, play for an hour or so, and make the best of it.  I've even designed a target that I wear on my back.

Sovrath

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

 

Solo friendly games are good, because many people like to play them. If you have fun, the game is good.

Group friendly games are good, because many people like to play them. If you have fun, the game is good.

You cannot design a game that is BOTH solo friendly, AND group friendly, at the same time.

I've said this before. Yes you can.

yes.

Lineage 2 was both solo friendly and group friendly. I mostly soloed in Lineage 2. There were a few things that did require group but overall there was group content and solo content. Group areas and solo areas.

I would state that if one did run in a group then one would be safer and take advantage of safety in numbers.

But the majority of all my levels was done solo. Yes there were people grouping in Cruma, Tower of Insolence, Forge of the Gods, Catas/Necros.

While I was in the Wastes, Forest of Mirrors, Sea of Spores, Forsaken plains. Forest of the Dead (think that was its name).

 

You can solo in EVERY MMORPG.

You can group in EVERY MMORPG.

That fact alone does not make a game group friendly, or solo friendly.

There is no MMORPG that instanly kills your character and gives you ZERO xp if you don't group, but decide to solo.

There is no MMORPG that instanly kills your character and gives you ZERO xp if you decide to group.

Group friendly or solo friendly is determined by the rate of XP made group or solo.

If you make the same XP either way the game is solo friendly. There's no reason to group, therefore no challenging group content. It's an option in the game, like crafting. Do it if you want, don't do it if you don't want to.

If you make more xp solo, it's a solo friendly game.

If you make substantially more xp grouping, it's a group friendly game.

You cannot make more xp solo, and more xp grouping, at the same time.

The XP rate encourages you to engage in one activity or the other. If the XP is the same, the time it takes to group is discouraging you to group, because you are losing XP, even if it's just walking over to meet someone in an area.

If the XP rate is more for grouping, you are encouraged to group for the faster xp.

"Friendly" is the encouragement for one activity or another.

Friendly =/= allows you do do the activity.

You are allowed to group or solo in ALL MMORPGs.

 

Ok, great, then I still hold up Lineage 2 as an example.

They've played around with group bonuses over the years but there are places where you can group and get excellent xp. Heck, there was a point where there were just mage groups going up to Tower of Insolence and hitting wind weak mobs and getting great xp. There were also places where one could solo and get great xp.

It's not a perfect balance and I haven't seen any game with perfect balance, but the truth of it was that people can get cata/necro groups together, get very decent xp and get seal stones. Or they can go to one of the very solo friendly places and get great xp.

There are also places for solo with lousy xp and same for group.

 

Exactly, there is no perfect balance.

Which means the game will be either solo friendly, or group friendly.

It's not POSSIBLE to balance it perfectly, for EVERY player.

CAN get a group is not "group friendly".

You CAN solo EQ. It's not "solo friendly".

I CAN get groups all day long is WoW. It's not "group friendly".

But now you are being a bean counter.

It's all about perception. If you want to say that being solo over group or vice versa gives you 5% xp more then sure go ahead. but the perception, the actual experience is that you are doing well, getting great xp or worse xp depending on where you are. As far as the truth? I don't know, you tell me as I have never felt that grouping or soloing in Lineage 2 was better or worse dependant on the area one was in.

And it's also variable. I could be a soloer and be a bit slow that day and not get as much xp as a group in forge of gods. I could be very efficient the next and the forge of the gods group might have a bad day and wipe. Or I get pk'd and the game then shifts to pvp mode. Or the forge of the gods group gets attacked by an enemy alliance and goes into pvp mode.

So the truth of it is that a player in Lineage 2 can solo or group or mix it up and feel that they are making good progress. Well, relative to L2's leveling.

And that's the way I believe it should be. It caters to group, to solo and thereofer its' a game that does both very well.

Ihmotepp

Originally posted by madeux

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

There's only one real issue here.

I think these are facts:

Solo friendly games are good, because many people like to play them. If you have fun, the game is good.

Group friendly games are good, because many people like to play them. If you have fun, the game is good.

You cannot design a game that is BOTH solo friendly, AND group friendly, at the same time.

The common argument you see, is solo players will argue that a solo friendly game allows group play, so it's the best design!

But what kind of design is that? A SOLO FRIENDLY design. So they are in essence just saying, they like solo friendly games, and NOT group friendly games.

 

A "group friendly" game, must have challening group content. Optional group content is not challenging. A group  can just plow through solo content in a solo friendly game, or at any time they can just break up the group, and go solo making just as much, if not more XP solo.

This means the group content is "optional", not challenging, and therefore the game is SOLO FRIENDLY.

When you make the group content "challenging" instead of optional, the solo player will encounter difficulty. They will look for a path that gives them EQUAL or better XP to the group content, and it will not be there. Therefore the game will be GROUP FRIENDLY, but the solo player will often label the game "forced" grouping.

So again, BOTH designs are good, because players enjoy BOTH types of games.

The only question is, can you design a game that is SOLO Friendly, and GROUP Friendly, AT THE SAME TIME?

The answer is no.

All other arguments are simply WHY you prefer group friendly, or solo friendly.

There is no "PROBLEM" with group friendly, or solo friendly games.

Solo players LOVE solo friendly games.

Group players LOVE group friendly games.

The only problem is when you think you can satisfy BOTH groups with one game. It cannot be done, because they are the opposite, and one cancels the other out.

I can't keep track of how many times this gauy has made this same lame argument.  No matter how many times you type it, it will never become true.

LIFE contains both solo and group elements, and they both seem to exist in the same plane of existence.  MMO's work the same way, even if you close your eyes and plug your ears and pretend that it doesn't.

 

Grouping and solo play exists in EVERY MMORPG.

Name an MMORGP where you are prevented by the game design from soloing to the cap?

There is no such game.

So what are you talking about?

Solo and Group play exists in MMO's, ALL OF THEM,  both group friendly and solo friendly.

Who is saying it doesn't?

You just keep repeating that you WANT a game that encourages you to solo.

And I keep saying, fine, no problem, have fun in your game that encourages you to solo.

And I say, I want a game that encourages me to group.

And you say, OMG! don't let him play a game like that, because I won't like it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yea, I know. We like different games.

Why does that put such a bee in your bonnet?

How is it going to POSSIBLY hurt you to let me play a group friendly game?

helthros

Imo having people coming to a new game always asking who solos the best is just retarded. You're going into an MMO so you can be the best at playing by yourself?

 

I LOVE forced grouping, but that's just me. To me, personally, MMO's shifting to things being soloable (and thus grouping being mere fluff) is part of what's killing MMOs.

Ihmotepp

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

 

Solo friendly games are good, because many people like to play them. If you have fun, the game is good.

Group friendly games are good, because many people like to play them. If you have fun, the game is good.

You cannot design a game that is BOTH solo friendly, AND group friendly, at the same time.

I've said this before. Yes you can.

yes.

Lineage 2 was both solo friendly and group friendly. I mostly soloed in Lineage 2. There were a few things that did require group but overall there was group content and solo content. Group areas and solo areas.

I would state that if one did run in a group then one would be safer and take advantage of safety in numbers.

But the majority of all my levels was done solo. Yes there were people grouping in Cruma, Tower of Insolence, Forge of the Gods, Catas/Necros.

While I was in the Wastes, Forest of Mirrors, Sea of Spores, Forsaken plains. Forest of the Dead (think that was its name).

 

You can solo in EVERY MMORPG.

You can group in EVERY MMORPG.

That fact alone does not make a game group friendly, or solo friendly.

There is no MMORPG that instanly kills your character and gives you ZERO xp if you don't group, but decide to solo.

There is no MMORPG that instanly kills your character and gives you ZERO xp if you decide to group.

Group friendly or solo friendly is determined by the rate of XP made group or solo.

If you make the same XP either way the game is solo friendly. There's no reason to group, therefore no challenging group content. It's an option in the game, like crafting. Do it if you want, don't do it if you don't want to.

If you make more xp solo, it's a solo friendly game.

If you make substantially more xp grouping, it's a group friendly game.

You cannot make more xp solo, and more xp grouping, at the same time.

The XP rate encourages you to engage in one activity or the other. If the XP is the same, the time it takes to group is discouraging you to group, because you are losing XP, even if it's just walking over to meet someone in an area.

If the XP rate is more for grouping, you are encouraged to group for the faster xp.

"Friendly" is the encouragement for one activity or another.

Friendly =/= allows you do do the activity.

You are allowed to group or solo in ALL MMORPGs.

 

Ok, great, then I still hold up Lineage 2 as an example.

They've played around with group bonuses over the years but there are places where you can group and get excellent xp. Heck, there was a point where there were just mage groups going up to Tower of Insolence and hitting wind weak mobs and getting great xp. There were also places where one could solo and get great xp.

It's not a perfect balance and I haven't seen any game with perfect balance, but the truth of it was that people can get cata/necro groups together, get very decent xp and get seal stones. Or they can go to one of the very solo friendly places and get great xp.

There are also places for solo with lousy xp and same for group.

 

Exactly, there is no perfect balance.

Which means the game will be either solo friendly, or group friendly.

It's not POSSIBLE to balance it perfectly, for EVERY player.

CAN get a group is not "group friendly".

You CAN solo EQ. It's not "solo friendly".

I CAN get groups all day long is WoW. It's not "group friendly".

But now you are being a bean counter.

It's all about perception. If you want to say that being solo over group or vice versa gives you 5% xp more then sure go ahead. but the perception, the actual experience is that you are doing well, getting great xp or worse xp depending on where you are. As far as the truth? I don't know, you tell me as I have never felt that grouping or soloing in Lineage 2 was better or worse dependant on the area one was in.

And it's also variable. I could be a soloer and be a bit slow that day and not get as much xp as a group in forge of gods. I could be very efficient the next and the forge of the gods group might have a bad day and wipe. Or I get pk'd and the game then shifts to pvp mode. Or the forge of the gods group gets attacked by an enemy alliance and goes into pvp mode.

So the truth of it is that a player in Lineage 2 can solo or group or mix it up and feel that they are making good progress. Well, relative to L2's leveling.

And that's the way I believe it should be.

 

If you start soloing, and you play for an hour, what is the total XP you made?

If you start grouping, and you play for an hour, what is the total XP you made?

If the total is equal, 100 for both,  or more for solo, then it is a SOLO "friendly" game.

The group players will have to walk over to each other, and click the "group" button. This takes time. The solo player will not have to walk over to anyone, and will not have to click the "group" button.

So, the group player is LOSING xp every time he groups, that the solo player is not.

This ENCOURAGES you to solo, which means its solo "friendly". I can whack a mob right here. OR, I can respond to your request to group, stop whacking my mob, walk over to you, and then click on "accept". I MUST lose XP when I make that decision, if we make equal rates of XP grouped or solo.

If total XP  is greater for grouping, then I lose NOTHING when I accept your group offer, because the XP I lost when I stopped whacking mobs and walked over to join you, is made up in faster XP per hour rates.

This makes it group "friendly".

Because it ENCOURAGES me to group.

"ENCOURAGES" and "FRIENDLY" =/= can or have the ability to.

You CAN group in EVERY MMORPG.

You  CAN solo in EVERY MMORPG.

 

Kuatosune

In many games there have been many mixed up senarios of group and solo areas.  I think there needs to be a balance of both solo and group content.  In many games the content is mixed together where you have a certain area that s a group area and the majority of the zone is solo.  In that case it would be very difficult to find a group of people to engage the group mobs in a solo themed area.  The reason being that the people in the solo area are there for just that being solo.  Where more group minded individuals will be in a totally different area where group play is the primary goal for the area they are in.  Now if everyone of these area were the same level perhaps the contrast wouldn't be so bad but if you multiply the hodge podge concept through many layers of levels and zones what you end up with are "dead" zones where it's nearly impossible to get anything done.

So what needs to be done is that the content should be balanced better.  If there is to be solo content it should have it's own area where those who want to solo can get their kicks but in the same token those who prefer grouping should have an entire different area that will allow socialization and formation of groups.  As it stands now in many games there isn't a good balance to support grouping together to defeat tougher mobs it's all hodge podged all over the place and makes attempting more difficult challenges next to impossible because you are surrounded by solo players and content.

Ihmotepp

Originally posted by helthros

Imo having people coming to a new game always asking who solos the best is just retarded. You're going into an MMO so you can be the best at playing by yourself?

 

I LOVE forced grouping, but that's just me. To me, personally, MMO's shifting to things being soloable (and thus grouping being mere fluff) is part of what's killing MMOs.

 

I disagree. There is nothing retarded about likeing a game, and having fun playing it.

If you have fun playing solo friendly MMORPGs, then play one, and have fun.

What is RETARDED in the extreme, is telling groupers they CAN group in your solo friendly game, and they should like it.

Because every grouper can say exactly the same thing in return. You CAN solo in my group friendly game, so you should like it!

Even the most Group Friendly game ever made will let you whack mobs and make XP solo.

You CAN solo in EVERY MMORPG.

But the solo players cry "forced grouping", even though they CAN solo if they want to.

Then they turn around and say, but,but, but, you CAN group in my solo friendly game! so you should like it!

Well, if I should liek that so much, you CAN solo in my group friendly game. Why don't you like it?

Ihmotepp

Originally posted by Kuatosune

 

So what needs to be done is that the content should be balanced better.  If there is to be solo content it should have it's own area where those who want to solo can get their kicks but in the same token those who prefer grouping should have an entire different area that will allow socialization and formation of groups.  As it stands now in many games there isn't a good balance to support grouping together to defeat tougher mobs it's all hodge podged all over the place and makes attempting more difficult challenges next to impossible because you are surrounded by solo players and content.

 

That is a great design for a SOLO FRIENDLY game.

The solo players can go to the group area if they feel like, or just solo.

Very, very SOLO FRIENDLY.

Does nothing for me wanting a GROUP FRIENDLY game.

CAN GROUP =/= GROUP FRIENDLY

CAN SOLO =/= SOLO FRIENDLY

Why does walking over to a different area of the map change anything?

You've designed WoW, and just put the group dungeons in a different area of the map, which changes pretty much nothing.

I'd solo that game to the  cap.

Because it's not group friendly.

Group friendly or solo friendly depends on XP rates.

Moving an area here or there doesn't change the XP rates in any way.

bostondreams

Well, I realize many here may not play it, but City of Heroes has done a pretty good job with the whole solo versus group issue. XP per mob is lower within a group but higher overall, as there are more of them, so there is a benefit to grouping. Alternatively. any class can technically solo, and there are even options to determine the scaling of the mobs up or down, as well as the option to simulate being in a group for those seeking a challenge.

Daitengu

Originally posted by UsualSuspect

The problem with solo-friendly games is that it kills community, as can be seen by almost all the replies to this thread. I'll show you what I mean:

• 
  Personally I like to play both ways because sometimes people just make me want to set baby seals on fire.
• 
  It's the fact that the majority of players are whiny, inarticulate and immature - and I'm not referring to age there, by the way - as well as incompetent.
• 
  The problem with going in a group is that not every group member will have the time or patience to wait. Some people just want the quest finished as soon as possible, so they can get their rewards.
• 
  Hey I need a group, you enter, hardly any talk apart from Hi, when quest/mission is done it's Bye. It's actually the grouping in the last several years that has somewhat forced me into a more solo play...
• 
  The noob flakes and loot whores pissed me off so much in that game, I ended up only playing solo. Solo play is valuable. If it wasn't for solo play, I'd have quit many games long before I quit them out of frustration with other people.

All this animosity grows from having solo-friendly games. People prefer to solo as a lot of them came from single player games, so when it comes to grouping they don't know how to interact. They don't understand how their character should work as a team with other classes. The system is probably designed so this one quest is group only in a sea of solo quests, so they just want to get it done and don't care who they're grouping with, so they can get back to their solo quests. As they're soloers they think that they're entitled to whatever loot drops, not realising the concept of sharing between other members.

Community is simply killed by solo-friendly content. Groups bring people together, they have to learn to interact with each other, to understand how their class works with other classes, friendships are created, people trust other players to help them through content. Until all this "Solo to Max Level" stuff is pushed out of MMO's people are going to continue to be whiny, immature, incompetent, uncaring, loot whores.. because they won't be 'taught' to act any differently.

 

Bwahahaha.  The first MMO I played was Everquest back in 2001 till 2004.  And I'll tell you this much some of the people were great to group with, and some were terrible to group with. If the people I knew, who were good, weren't on, I'd solo group content on my ranger. 1. because I could, and 2 because the suck folk got me killed too often which ment exp losse and a courpse run for all my gear.

Trust me 10 minutes to kill a single mob at 60 in the plane of justice wasn't solo friendly, but I could do it.

Sovrath

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

 

 

If you start soloing, and you play for an hour, what is the total XP you made?

If you start grouping, and you play for an hour, what is the total XP you made?

If the total is equal, 100 for both,  or more for solo, then it is a SOLO "friendly" game.

The group players will have to walk over to each other, and click the "group" button. This takes time. The solo player will not have to walk over to anyone, and will not have to click the "group" button.

So, the group player is LOSING xp every time he groups, that the solo player is not.

This ENCOURAGES you to solo, which means its solo "friendly". I can whack a mob right here. OR, I can respond to your request to group, stop whacking my mob, walk over to you, and then click on "accept". I MUST lose XP when I make that decision, if we make equal rates of XP grouped or solo.

If total XP  is greater for grouping, then I lose NOTHING when I accept your group offer, because the XP I lost when I stopped whacking mobs and walked over to join you, is made up in faster XP per hour rates.

This makes it group "friendly".

Because it ENCOURAGES me to group.

"ENCOURAGES" and "FRIENDLY" =/= can or have the ability to.

You CAN group in EVERY MMORPG.

You  CAN solo in EVERY MMORPG.

 

Yes, I get it. And I restate "lineage 2".

Because if I am in a good area for solo I'll make more than a grouping counterpart in a bad area. If I am in a bad area for solo then my grouping counterpart in a good area will make more.

If you want to get out your scales and micrometeres and start saying that "oh, someone who makes 10,000 xp solo after an hour over someone who is in a group and only makes 9,000" then you are going to drive yourself mad as now we can say "oh, someone who is duoing is making more than someone who is in a 5 person group and the 5 person grouup is cleaning up over the 9 person group. so then if that is the case you aren't just for grouping you are for homogenous groups as someone is going to get the shaft. And what about playing with higher lvl players who suck up all the xp.

It just can't get down to that level of ridiculous. At some point game play has to be more than perfectly equally amounts of xp.

The issue is not weighing every piece of xp so that one can definitively state "oh, over a month soloing I go 500k xp and you in a group got 450k xp. Or vice versa.

Because at that level it really doesn't matter anymore.

The issue is when a person can group and fall woefully behind a soloer. Or vice versa. That is when I would say the game is not balanced well enough.

And since, in a game like L2, it ranges from area to area, it really is very hard to say who is making out better. I'm sure people on Hellbound (group area) are doing exceptionally well. But the solo players can find decent xp and dont have to lament Hellbound. Not to mention that if they are in a group they are going to have to contend with drawing the attention of enemies.

You are never going to get a perfect balance because game play is too fluid, to variable. And I think the best anyone can hope for is to get "close enough".

Sometimes in life, close enough is good enough.

Ihmotepp

Originally posted by Sovrath

 

Yes, I get it. And I restate "lineage 2".

Because if I am in a good area for solo I'll make more than a grouping counterpart in a bad area. If I am in a bad area for solo then my grouping counterpart in a good area will make more.

IMO, that would be a SOLO friendly game.

If there's a good area to solo that makes MORE xp than grouping in some situations, I am not encouraged to go looking for a group, which means it is NOT group friendly.

Ihmotepp

Originally posted by bostondreams

Well, I realize many here may not play it, but City of Heroes has done a pretty good job with the whole solo versus group issue. XP per mob is lower within a group but higher overall, as there are more of them, so there is a benefit to grouping. Alternatively. any class can technically solo, and there are even options to determine the scaling of the mobs up or down, as well as the option to simulate being in a group for those seeking a challenge.

 

I would say City of Heroes did a good job of making a fun solo friendly game.

I played CoH, and it was fun, but NOT group friendly.

The dungeons scale, you don't make enough XP grouped for it to make a real difference whether you solo or group to the cap, and the group play was lackluster compared to a real group friendly game.

Fun game? yes. Group friendly? No.

Can you have  a blast grouping in a solo friendly game? Sure.

You can also have a blast soloing in a group friendly game.

Vercarrion

 

I think solo-friendly gameplay is one of the primary reasons among a multitude of others that are contributing to the feeling of overall shallowness in today's MMOs. MMOs were not only designed as a persistent world where you created your character and advanced him/her, they were designed to experienced with other players. You're supposed to forge alliances, make enemies, and live in the games world, but that type of experience has become the equivalent of lukewarm leftovers.  It's gotten to the point that I feel like we might as well just design Mass Effect 3 as a persistent open-world game where you can infinitely explore everything alone, slap x-fire on it to make it feel social, and call it a day. 

 

MMOs need to stop trying to be everything for everyone. If you look at other forms of entertainment, whether its music or movies, the truly great experiences have been crafted by individuals who created for themselves or a particular group of people. Radiohead did not become a beloved band by designing music that everyone would like. Martin Scorcese did not create masterpieces by creating easy to understand plot twists that would be universally enjoyed. An MMO that emphasizes world exploration and community building through grouping and challenging gameplay sounds like a much more desirable experience to me than leveling to max by myself or doing dungeon runs over and over for the same loot that half of the server already has. 

 

That being said, there needs to be some balance. Why not base the main focus of solo gameplay around learning how to play your respective class? For example, lets say you're a ranger and get a new ability. Rather than running around using this new special skill right away, how about you go through a series of solo quests tailored to your characters story while also learning about general ways to use the skill. That way players can get their fix of solo gameplay in a way that is productive, learn how to play their class properly, and it still makes it possible to emphasize group interaction as the overall means of experiencing the game.  

Dibdabs

The core of the entire matter is that no how well the game handles gameplay or how fantastic the actual game is, if the bulk of the players are dimwits, ninja looters, players who bail on the group (because they got what THEY wanted so screw the rest) or whiners, people will be reluctant to group.  Simple as that.

Even if soloing proved extremely slow and difficult, I'd rather do that than group with tossers.

Grimzay

I don't like being forced to group, I like playing solo. So by what some people are saying on this thread....because I like playing solo I shouldn't play MMORPGS? Get bent.

 

I prefer to play solo(lone wolf style) and I only group with friends and guildies (If I am in one) especially since it gives me "the epic battle" feeling.

I don't get that feeling when I am forced (or not) group with random people because it's always "Hi > Lol something > Argue for items > Bye"

Games should be solo friendly, FORCED grouping is a pain in the ass, it also leads to ONLY certain classes being accepted.

Also, solo players, like myself, should not be able to get epic items at the same rate that people who grouped a certain instance.

Why? Because we picked the option to have the dungeon watered down for our needs. The only time we should get epic items at the same rate as groupers, who did the much harder version of that dungeon, is if we completed that exact same dungeon, at the same difficulty as the grouper version, meaning nothing has changed with the difficulty except for the fact I'm there on my own.

Then it should end up with us getting a higher rate though...

only fair.

Torik

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Originally posted by Sovrath

 

Yes, I get it. And I restate "lineage 2".

Because if I am in a good area for solo I'll make more than a grouping counterpart in a bad area. If I am in a bad area for solo then my grouping counterpart in a good area will make more.

IMO, that would be a SOLO friendly game.

If there's a good area to solo that makes MORE xp than grouping in some situations, I am not encouraged to go looking for a group, which means it is NOT group friendly.

The problem you are having is that you are arguing with people who are not powerlevers thus do not obsess about leveling rates like you do.  So having a 10-20% difference in XP gain to them is negligible since it will not affect their choice of playstyle.  To them your obsession with XP seems petty and silly.

UsualSuspect

Originally posted by Grimzay

I prefer to play solo(lone wolf style) and I only group with friends and guildies (If I am in one) especially since it gives me "the epic battle" feeling.

I don't get that feeling when I am forced (or not) group with random people because it's always "Hi > Lol something > Argue for items > Bye"

Games should be solo friendly, FORCED grouping is a pain in the ass, it also leads to ONLY certain classes being accepted.

Lone wolf style and the 'epic battle' feeling you can find in single player games, you're not supposed to get that level of 'badass' in an MMO, you're not supposed to be the lone hero fighting epic monsters. MMO's are a different style of game that focuses on group play - or at least it used to, before World of Warcraft came along.

If you don't like that idea then, I'm sorry but I'm one of those people that say you shouldn't be playing MMO's. MMO's are not single player games, they're not for making characters that can take on the world alone, that's not the idea.  

FadeToBlack3

Originally posted by UsualSuspect

Originally posted by Grimzay

I prefer to play solo(lone wolf style) and I only group with friends and guildies (If I am in one) especially since it gives me "the epic battle" feeling.

I don't get that feeling when I am forced (or not) group with random people because it's always "Hi > Lol something > Argue for items > Bye"

Games should be solo friendly, FORCED grouping is a pain in the ass, it also leads to ONLY certain classes being accepted.

Lone wolf style and the 'epic battle' feeling you can find in single player games, you're not supposed to get that level of 'badass' in an MMO, you're not supposed to be the lone hero fighting epic monsters. MMO's are a different style of game that focuses on group play - or at least it used to, before World of Warcraft came along.

If you don't like that idea then, I'm sorry but I'm one of those people that say you shouldn't be playing MMO's. MMO's are not single player games, they're not for making characters that can take on the world alone, that's not the idea.  

I understand where your coming from, but telling people that they shouldn't be playing because you feel all people have to behave the same way in a game seems wrong to me. 

 

There are lots of options out there for people who enjoy both kinds of games and lots of different games in developement that cater to both crowds.

For group players, the final fantasy series of online games, as well as other new ones such as APB cater to more of a teamwork style of gameplay while its certainly not hard to see that games such as WoW or LOTRO are more solo friendly.

If you don't like the way a game plays then find one that you do enjoy instead of turning around and criticizing the game which is bringing alot of enjoyment to others. 

cheyane

Most games I always roll a class that people need in groups like a healer.  I do this so when I want to group I can easily get one but let us look at how things have changed from the old days of EQ. Then it took time,skill ,concentration, intelligence and dedication to play. People talked had real conversations not just lol recount .Or just endless fights about loot.

Nowadays the quality of groups have deteriorated to a point where I genuinely cringe when I see what is in the chat box. I am not a snob I just want real conversation you know talk about the game or about lore or about your real life things. No people just discuss specs and loot or just don't talk just check gearscore or are just rushing through to reach the end of the dungeon to get the experience like in DDO. Everyone is mercenary these days so can you really blame us becoming jaded and preferring to limit our conversations to guildchat.

It is not that we prefer soloing it is what this genre has evolved into from the joys of grouping like it was in game like raiding Plane of Fear on EQ was that involved actual planning and people would come armed with trivia games and entertainment in the form of stories and jokes because a lot of time to kill to the express grind fests games  offer these days.

Cannot really blame people who want to solo and limit the beyond dumb conversations you would have to stomach in the a random group. Besides, you playing a MMORPG is different from a single player game. The MMORPG offers other forms of interaction that single player games don't so yes it is unfair of everyone merely saying that that gameplay is not valid in a MMORPG setting.

Sovrath

Originally posted by Torik

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Originally posted by Sovrath

 

Yes, I get it. And I restate "lineage 2".

Because if I am in a good area for solo I'll make more than a grouping counterpart in a bad area. If I am in a bad area for solo then my grouping counterpart in a good area will make more.

IMO, that would be a SOLO friendly game.

If there's a good area to solo that makes MORE xp than grouping in some situations, I am not encouraged to go looking for a group, which means it is NOT group friendly.

The problem you are having is that you are arguing with people who are not powerlevers thus do not obsess about leveling rates like you do.  So having a 10-20% difference in XP gain to them is negligible since it will not affect their choice of playstyle.  To them your obsession with XP seems petty and silly.

That could be the case.

And to Ihmo:

what about the areas that that give great xp and rewards but require groups? Wouldn't that make it a group friendly game? Hellbound is for groups.

It's true, I don't obsess about an extra 1%. If I can be reasonably competitive then "good enough".

I still say Lineage 2 did it well. Solo/group, your choice based on many factors.

Reklaw

Originally posted by UsualSuspect

Originally posted by Grimzay

I prefer to play solo(lone wolf style) and I only group with friends and guildies (If I am in one) especially since it gives me "the epic battle" feeling.

I don't get that feeling when I am forced (or not) group with random people because it's always "Hi > Lol something > Argue for items > Bye"

Games should be solo friendly, FORCED grouping is a pain in the ass, it also leads to ONLY certain classes being accepted.

Lone wolf style and the 'epic battle' feeling you can find in single player games, you're not supposed to get that level of 'badass' in an MMO, you're not supposed to be the lone hero fighting epic monsters. MMO's are a different style of game that focuses on group play - or at least it used to, before World of Warcraft came along.

If you don't like that idea then, I'm sorry but I'm one of those people that say you shouldn't be playing MMO's. MMO's are not single player games, they're not for making characters that can take on the world alone, that's not the idea.  

In my opinion MMORPG are social games where grouping "can" play a part in it, but MMORPG's offer or atleast should offer allot more to be social then to only group, I also believe it's a misconception of people thinking that MMORPG's focus is grouping, grouping is and will always be a part of MMORPG, but it never should be the soul focus of a MMORPG as said MMORPG should offer so much more, else we can might aswell just play Mulitplayer games if you feel the focus should be on grouping.

It's also hard for me to blame games as I blame the community that has come into this genre the last several years allot more for turning me into a more solo player. But keep in mind even though I solo play doesn't mean I aint social, I am actually more social outside of groups as the majority of groups seem to lack any form of social other then being in a group together, but have explained that already earlyer in this topic.