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The problem with "Solo-friendly"
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Funny insult there Madeux.
Sorry to say that if you go into the whole RL thing you are going to be screwed, you can not do what others can, and if you work for a living then you are normally part of a team and even if your not you are forced to work with others regarless of what you think or feel about others. The whole equality argument aint going to work either, it is a Communits mentality everyone is equal and no one can be different if I am better at the job than you are it means nothing, I should get no special pay because I am better or because I have been working at it longer have more experience have a degree. Now if you speak about being equal as in Sex/Religion stuff like that than I understand. A company of one will be less successful then a company of 5 or 10 or 100k, the more you have the more you normally get right? While you might be one of the lucky billionairs that is not everyone some will have to work and with others to get to that state, you can not make a product all by yourself you have to have those that help you make that product it could be a third party company that does it but you will be forced to be part of a group. Even when you do trading, you are working with a group, it might now be one that you actually interface with but it is a group non-the-less, if the company you invest in does good than that is a group that you have to count on.
Why would you "have" to group? You can solo to the cap in EVERY mmorpg ever made.
You have a "miserable experience" if someone is making more XP than you.
So you complain and complain, that no one should ever play a group friendly game, and everyone has to play a solo friendly game, so you'll be sure no one can get more XP than you.
Why not just solo the game, and not worry so much that someone else might be making more XP than you?
Grouping is always fun, becuase it's ALWAYS by choice.
You act as if someone put a gun to your head, and made you play DAoC or EQ, and told you they'd kill you if you didn't join a group.
You can play any game you like, and you can solo or group in EVERY MMORPG ever made. Where are you missing this "choice"?
I dunno, maybe all of the exp quest chains throughout the world?
I'm just jumping in after skimming the last couple pages, but it seems like that is the obvious thing being overlooked by the pro-solo crowd. In all MMOs that are extremely solo-friendly, the content that you are supposed to go through in order to level up your character is plainly not groupable content. Such games tend to place minimum level requirements on quests. You can't get the quest until you're high enough level to solo it; you don't have to worry that the game will hand you a quest that you cannot solo at that level (unless you're spectacularly bad at playing your character). So there's no reasonable way for a player to form a group for those quests. The rewards would be lessened. The challenge — which there isn't much of in the first place — would become nonexistent. The time to complete would not lessen by much because most of the time on the quests is spent moving from mob to mob and NPC to NPC; what little time you save on the fights themselves is cancelled out by the time it takes to communicate with your groupmates.
While it is not technically correct to say that you cannot put 6 people into a party and have them complete solo quest chains, it is painfully obvious that you put yourself at a major disadvantage if you attempt to do so.
There is no problem with solo friendly games.
If you like them play them.
There is no problem with group friendly games.
If you like them, play them.
There is a problem with demanding that everyone must like solo friendly games, or everyone must like group friendly games.
People are different. They like different games. That's not a problem.
And you can state WHY you like your solo friendly game, without having to put down people that like group friendly games, and vice a versa.
Your LIKE of a game mechanic is not dependant on PROVING that the other person is somehow "wrong" to like something different than you.
I like chocolate ice cream. It doesn't mean that everyone that likes vanilla is somehow a "miserable human being" or they are wrong.
Does Captain One-Nut (aka Lance Armstrong) or Tiger Woods deserve any less of a reward than that one guy on that one football team who didn't even make it on the field but still got a superbowl ring?
XP for kills and drops would be less than if done solo but if all in the group had the quests in the chain they would all get the same rewards including quest xp. When you group for an instance some get better drops than others anyway so the only thing groupers would be missing would be splitting up the xp for kills which again they do in group quests. A buddy groups with you or maybe two otthers and then the lack of kill xp isnt as bad as would be in a full group. But it can be done whereas doing a dungeon solo that is designed for a full group cannot.
WOW isnt great because it has 12 million players. WOW has 12 million players because its great.
In my ice cream store, I want Chocolate and Vanilla ice cream. Same price, same size scoop. Choose whichever you want.
But in your store, you want the Vanilla ice cream to have maggots in it, so everyone will choose chocolate and be cool like you.
With more people in your group, you'll kill the 10 rats faster, so you'll complete the quest faster, and have the ability to level faster. But they STILL want more bonuses, that's not good enough for them.
XP isnt the focus for me. I enjoy playing the game I dont like to hurry for the sake of xp. Those who want to group to do the content and get the xp faster is fine with me I will take my time and solo it. Problem is, I will be forced to group for the dungeon content, thats what I dont like. I want to solo the dungeon too. See guys? Im not interested in solo content, I want to be able to solo everything in the game.
WOW isnt great because it has 12 million players. WOW has 12 million players because its great.
As you say, they would get the same rewards for the quest, but they'd be splitting the kill XP and drops 6 ways (assuming a full party) and on average would not progress through the quest chain any faster. While we could crunch numbers to see if there's any way a perfect party could outrace a solo quest grinder by enough of a margin to offset the reduced rewards, that'd be pointless. My point was to illustrate that saying "you can run solo content in a group" is just about as incorrect as saying "you can run group content solo". Even though the game mechanics ALLOW you to do it, the game goes out of its way to make it unchallenging and unrewarding.
That is easy, and DAoC did it quite well, IMO.
Grouping was the way to go for XP. YOu made XP faster if you grouped, which made group players like me quite happy.
And you got cool loot drops from dungeons, that were very challenging for a full group.
But here's the cool part for you.
Lets' say I'm level 10. I get to dungeon X, and all the Mobs there are Red and purple to me, which means they will kill me. I can go get some friends, a full group, and do dungeon X! This is VERY cool to me. A hard obstacle, that I can overcome with team work! Seriously fun.
But what about you? You are solo, level 10, and all the mobs are red and purple, and they will kill you.
No problem! you go level up to 15.
Now the mobs are not red and purple anymore, they are green to you! You can kill them! You will still get XP, and you will get the EXACT same loot drops!
You will not make as much XP as I did, relatively speaking, because I was killing Purple mobs, and you are killing Green mobs. you'll still make the same xp per kill, but at level 15 it won't be as valuable to you as it was to me when I was level 10. When I was level 10, 100 xp points seemed awesome! You, at level 15 will think 100 xp points, is just ok, and not really "awesome".
But you will be able to do ALL the content. all by yourself. I'll level faster than you, but you can do all the content.
While I would not mind soloing everything in the game, it is not a 1 player game, they make it easier for you to play but there is just stuff that I would see as game breaking for this type of game if you could do it all solo. It is not a console game that youc can play by yourself, and it is selfish of you to push your solo mentality on everyone else that enjoys to group and would prefer to group.
Would I like to kill the Lich King in WoW by myself? Sure would but not necessary for me to make the time I played the game fun. I love to solo as well and understand where you are coming from but that is just not how the game is built, now if they offered a 1 person version of WoW I be all over it but then again it would not be the same MMO since there is no one there to talk to or to duo or trio with.
All I can say is do what I did, I got 5 accounts and did solo runs of all the dungeons, still can't do the raids but I did all the dungeons except the newer ones and the ones I hated
I find this very hard to believe. Have you ever joined a party to do a "kill 10 rats" quest faster? I have done it occasionally in order to have a friend's company, but never for the sake of finishing the quest faster. It'd slow you down more often than not.
Now if you think people hate the solo mentality, try being a soloist that multiboxes the game lol, talk about hate. While you are still in a party of 5 players you are controlling all of them, I think you as a soloist would even hate multiboxers cause we could do the dungeons you cant do cause we have 5 accounts.
This makes no sense.
Because to you the maggots are any game that is not solo friendly.
But to me the maggots are any game that is not group friendly.
So your ice cream store is EXACTLY the same, to use your analogy.
you want to serve me the chocolate ice cream with maggots in it.
EVERYONE must have the SAME thing you do, or no one can have anything. Because YOU have ice cream with maggots in it (a solo friendly game) I have to have the ice cream with maggots in it (a solo friendly game).
But I don't want the SAME thing you do, I want something different.
This is what defines my grouping and soloing experience. Also grouping with friends is much more enjoyable than random players.
In most of the MMOs I've played I've chosen to solo to max level because I've found groups to be a frustrating experience. You have to make sure everyone's on the same page and if they are not, you end up wasting time to catch them up.
I find the solo experience to be more on the casual side as you don't have to waste time finding a group. If my friends are online then I just group up with them, no hassle, no hurry, were in it for the fun.
It's the not so fun aspects of a the game players tend to steer away from. And if that happens to be grouping, then of course they are going to solo.
I was going to post a question here regarding posts that seemed more like finger pointing, but I'm not going to. We should instead try to be more civil. No one is forcing anything on anyone in this forum of anon. posters.
"If you're going to act like a noob, I'll treat you like one." -Caskio
Adventurers wear fancy pants!!!
I want a group friendly game. For me, that design makes the game play fun. It's really not about punishing the solo player. The solo player is irrelevant to me.
They can play, not play, whatever. I just want to play the game, and find a dungeon, or group of mobs that is to hard for me to do by myself, but gives GREAT XP and loot if I get a group and kill them.
If you make it EASY for me to kill them solo, then the game's not real fun for me. Again, doesn't matter if the solo players is in the game or not, just the game design is all I care about.
So if you make a good group friendly game, I don't care if you multibox it. Go for it.
Doesn't affect the game design in any way.
The solo player is irrelevant... unless he gets the same XP as you, and can get the same quest rewards as you, and can lvl up as fast as you. Makes total sense.
In this we are completely the opposite. The only reason I play the game is for grouping. So playing the game with other players cannot be a "waste of time" for me.
It's not possible.
If I catch up another player, or join a party that causes us to wipe and lose xp, or we get nothing done, or we make a bunch of xp, it's all the same to me.
THAT, for me, is the game, and the only fun that exists in the current MMORPGs.
A waste of time for me, would be solo quest grinding. So boring I would rather count sand.
But the grouping isn't fun, unless it's meaningful. If we can all just run off and solo and make XP just as fast, then what's the point? Obviously the team work isn't neccessary, and therefore it is meaningless. Why are we grouping? Just to chat?
hell, I can chat in global without grouping with you.
Hmm... you only play for grouping, so playing the game with others can never be a "waste of time".... then you turn around and say that grouping is only fun unless it's meaningful.
It's almost as if you have no valid argument and every thing you say is just hiding the fact that you want to get bribed to play the way you want to play.
Actually it does make total sense.
The solo player IS irrelevant. But I'm still in the game, arent' I?
If it's easy to make xp solo, then it's easy for me. Whether the solo player is there or not.
So there's no challenge. For me. regardless of any "solo player" existing in the game or not.
You've changed the game design, from challenging, to so easy I don't want to play.
The "challenging" part for me, is an obstacle I cannot overcome without help, and that requires teamwork.
If the "solo player" can over come the obstacle without help, so can I. No teamwork is required. Game design is now to easy for me.
The fact that you are in the game or not, is in fact, irrelevant.
What I call meaningful, you call "bribed".
This is what I want.
I walk up to a dungeon. I cannot go in there without getting killed, unless I get help, and use team work.
But there must be a reason I need to go in there.
What if there is a dungeon right next to that one, and I can go there, I don't need any help, it doesn't require any teamwork.
The exact same thing is in both dungeons.
Why do I need to go into the dungeon that requires teamwork?
Just because?
In that case it's pointless, meaningless.
Seriously, I could make the same argument as you about loot.
Lets get rid of all loot in the game, and XP.
What, do you need to be "bribed" with loot do do the quests, but really you don't think they are fun?
Do you need to be "bribed" with XP to do the quests, and really you don't think they are fun?
Taht's the same logic you are using.
Scenario 1 -
You're by yourself, you take a quest to kill 10 rats, it takes you a couple of seconds to kill each rat.
Scenario 2 -
You have 1 other person with you , you take a quest to kill 10 rats, it takes each of you around the same time to kill one rat.
You are seriously saying this would slow you down? Are you not increasing the speed of your rat killing by adding 1 friend to your party?
Unless the games party system is really really really primitive that it doesn't "add 1 rat dead" to your quest book when your friend kills a rat while he is in your party, I don't see what you're getting at.
"We got rid of the trinity." How'd you do that? "Now everyone can heal." Sounds like you just took the mechanic and spread it thin. "Well no, there's one class that can do it better than others." I see, so they're healers. "No. They're.." -mind asplode-
This may make it more understandable for you.
What if it takes TWICE as long to level solo as in a group?
That sounds like a HUGE difference doesn't it?
So what if it takes you an entire year to level in a group? that means it would take you 2 YEARS to level solo! OMG! that's insane right?
But what if it takes you one hour to level to the cap in a group? that means it takes you two hours to level to the cap solo.
Do you give a rats ass about whether the level cap takes one or two hours? You would perceive this as no difference at all.
the equation involves more than 1 dead rat, two dead rats.
wait a minute. Hold on.
I am not focusing on "not allowing groups to maximize xp". I am NOT saying (and have never EVEREVEREVEREVER said taht if I make less xp solo then I don't like any game.
If I can solo and I like to solo I don't care if I make less xp than a group. And I do solo and never worry about what groups are doing.
did you answer the correct post?
I originally made a statement indicating that in a game such as Lineage 2 there was group and solo content and one could pick what one wanted and level quite well either way. You said that it wasn't possible to have solo and group content. remember?
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