Beyond that, ponder this: Where does it all end? After all, if it is all just pixels and what anyone else has shouldn't matter to you, why could I not make a game and at launch just auction off the right to play the King/Emporer/President or whatever? Buy the game and start as a serf, buy the game and pay me another hundred bucks and you get to be a warrior...500 to be a baron..1k for king of the server! Want a castle that no one else can have, just win the bidding! Need a sword to slay that dragon, why just hit the CS icon and go buy a sword of dragon slaying!
My point (and that of others) remains valid, whatever you try and quote at it. You are arguing that vanity items have no impact on the gameplay of others, so what that vanity item is shouldn't matter should it? Nor should how much the company charges for it. (and the prices will rise until they make as much as they think they can)
Once you accept that the company can add items, appearances or whatever that players can buy there is simply no limit (other than player backlash) to what they can add or how much they can charge for it. My example was basically accurate (I'll admit the dragon sword thing was gameplay, got a bit carried away), but the idea of cosmetic clothing and housing has certainly been brought up before as have limited time and promo offers. So why not a one of a kind per server offer? Why not a "cosmetic" suit that is full royal regalia and a "cosmetic" house that is a full sized castle? After all, it wouldn't affect YOUR gameplay. Why is your entirely arbitrary distinction between what elements can be sold and which have to be universal the "right" one?
We are still talking (at least nominally) about RPGs here, appearances matter to a LOT of people. Many players spend massive effort on their clothing, cosmetic sets of gear and/or mounts. In games where this stuff is player crafted, the crafters will tell you that it sells better and more reliably than nearly anything else. So, why can this be dismissed out of hand just because you think it is somehow a trivial aspect of the game?
Lastly, let me tell you a story of a very early "cash shop" gone horribly wrong.
There is a type of ongoing pen&paper RPG played at conventions across the US (and beyond) where you play the same character from session to session, convention to convention. They are generally called "living" whatever games; the first major one was 'Living City', run by the RPGA/TSR using a specific edition of Advanced Dungeons and Dragons. They are much like MMOs, you level up from game to game and acquire gear along the way - certified from the module you played in that session.
After it had been running for a while, someone had the brilliant idea of getting players to donate unused and unwanted items from their characters to be auctioned in a charity auction. People did, things sold for a few bucks and pretty much everyone was happy with it. This went on for a while, until someone at RPGA got the idea of handing out special *new* items that had never existed in the modules and were only given out through the auctions. Prices on these items skyrocketed and the items got more and more intrusive into gameplay, capping with the auctioning of a unique pet familiar at GenCon. I watched someone pay in the range of $1000 for a "cosmetic" pet that only existed on a sheet of paper.
So, don't try and tell me it can't happen or that these practices don't escalate until they hit some massive barrier of player blowback.
I am getting into the topic quite late.. but I am in agreement with anyone who has stated that as long as they remain "vanity" items and don't effect gameplay in anyway, I am all for developer making more cash so they can put out more material. Take League of Legends of example.. you have the ability to buy riot points to purchase different skins for your champions which make them money and strokes our e-peen's a little. I might go as far to say that in F2P games I don't mind people buying XP boosters either because I can get there as well.. just 10% slower. Things I do mind are things that make crafting less risky and gives anyone a blatant edge.. CS items that give more dmg for a certain time.. all that should be taken out.
So in conclusion.. vanity items, skins, pets (non combat), and xp boosters are all fine for me.. just nothing that makes anyone OP.
Beyond that, ponder this: Where does it all end? After all, if it is all just pixels and what anyone else has shouldn't matter to you, why could I not make a game and at launch just auction off the right to play the King/Emporer/President or whatever? Buy the game and start as a serf, buy the game and pay me another hundred bucks and you get to be a warrior...500 to be a baron..1k for king of the server! Want a castle that no one else can have, just win the bidding! Need a sword to slay that dragon, why just hit the CS icon and go buy a sword of dragon slaying!
I quoted those because the above argument was fallacious, and it would benefit everyone, including the person using it, to know how and why.
My point (and that of others) remains valid, whatever you try and quote at it. You are arguing that vanity items have no impact on the gameplay of others, so what that vanity item is shouldn't matter should it? Nor should how much the company charges for it. (and the prices will rise until they make as much as they think they can)
Read my last few posts responding to another poster - I am not the one making that argument. Not once in this thread did I imply that what some players choose to value "doesn't matter". Pricing is an entirely different discussion that I haven't attempted to touch.
Once you accept that the company can add items, appearances or whatever that players can buy there is simply no limit (other than player backlash) to what they can add or how much they can charge for it. My example was basically accurate (I'll admit the dragon sword thing was gameplay, got a bit carried away), but the idea of cosmetic clothing and housing has certainly been brought up before as have limited time and promo offers. So why not a one of a kind per server offer? Why not a "cosmetic" suit that is full royal regalia and a "cosmetic" house that is a full sized castle? After all, it wouldn't affect YOUR gameplay. Why is your entirely arbitrary distinction between what elements can be sold and which have to be universal the "right" one?
Just because you can do something doesn't mean you will. Most developers know that few players of sub-based games would enjoy cash-shop items that gave a tangible advantage to the buyer - and it would end up unbalancing the whole game, losing them customers in the long run. And yes, there is more incentive for them to not imbalance their own game besides player backlash. Unless they choose to just abandon any attempt at balance, adding stat-changing cash shop items would give them more work - having to balance those against the in-game gear. So they'd be spending more resources to add them in, just to lose revenue when players get upset and leave. That doesn't sound like a smart investment.
I was just using a definition that I believe most players would agree upon. Again, I said nothing about whether it would effect my gameplay, nor was that how I was defining it. Arbitrary? Something either is purely cosmetic or it isn't. Your castle example would not be purely cosmetic because that would take up more space than a normal house.
We are still talking (at least nominally) about RPGs here, appearances matter to a LOT of people. Many players spend massive effort on their clothing, cosmetic sets of gear and/or mounts. In games where this stuff is player crafted, the crafters will tell you that it sells better and more reliably than nearly anything else. So, why can this be dismissed out of hand just because you think it is somehow a trivial aspect of the game?
See above - that wasn't my argument.
Lastly, let me tell you a story of a very early "cash shop" gone horribly wrong.
There is a type of ongoing pen&paper RPG played at conventions across the US (and beyond) where you play the same character from session to session, convention to convention. They are generally called "living" whatever games; the first major one was 'Living City', run by the RPGA/TSR using a specific edition of Advanced Dungeons and Dragons. They are much like MMOs, you level up from game to game and acquire gear along the way - certified from the module you played in that session.
After it had been running for a while, someone had the brilliant idea of getting players to donate unused and unwanted items from their characters to be auctioned in a charity auction. People did, things sold for a few bucks and pretty much everyone was happy with it. This went on for a while, until someone at RPGA got the idea of handing out special *new* items that had never existed in the modules and were only given out through the auctions. Prices on these items skyrocketed and the items got more and more intrusive into gameplay, capping with the auctioning of a unique pet familiar at GenCon. I watched someone pay in the range of $1000 for a "cosmetic" pet that only existed on a sheet of paper.
So, don't try and tell me it can't happen or that these practices don't escalate until they hit some massive barrier of player blowback.
That's unfortunate. However, you cannot judge a different game, with different dev team, publisher, policies, etc as liable to make the same mistakes. It's possible, just not probable. Nor is it happening with a few companies in the past evidence that it will happen in the future.
I think it depends on what the vanity item actually is and in what genre. For example, I was playing City of Heroes and wanted to make a specific character I had in mind. The only way to do it was to buy an item or three from the Cash Shop to create the image. Personally I think that's very wrong, the game is designed so that people can make the hero of their choice, it says you can do that when you buy the game and pay the subscription. Having to pay extra to create a very specific hero is just ridiculous.
However, in other games such as Lord of the Rings Online, for example. Let's say you have a mount that's a plain brown and you can buy a new skin for it from the Cash Shop to make it white with black spots. I really don't see how that interferes with anything. You still have a mount if you don't buy it, but if you really have to put the finishing touch to your imagined appearance then you can make it white with spots.
In the first example the player is affected because the only way they can be the hero they imagined is by purchasing extras. In the second example they're already the character they want to be, placing a different color on a horse is purely cosmetic. That's how I see it anyway.
the real problem is they come in with nothing but useless cosmetics in the store, and then after they get you to accept it whammo now you can buy things that give you an edge, and if you dont buy them you cant compete.
I have never had an issue with P2P mmorpg charging extra for vanity item but people here seem to go crazy when it happens.
I always hear the argument if I pay $15 a month I want 100% of the game...which I think is a little silly...what is wrong if someone is willing to pay a little extra for a few pixels that will not affect your game play in any way at all.
I play MMORPGs to be immersed in a fantasy world. Putting real life dollars in that world pretty much kills all my immersion.
I don't care that your cloak only looks cool. I care that it cost $1.95 real dollars.
I don't want to see real dollars in the game. I want to see only gold, silver, platinum, credits, etc. , that are in no way related to real life dollars.
Because I'd rather not pay $50 for a game, $15 a month subscription fee, and then have some asshole expecting me to pay extra dollars for these types of things.
Currently playing - FF14ARR Previous games - SWG, World of Warcraft, ShadowBane, Warhammer, Age of Conan, Darkfall, Planetside Asheron's Call, Everquest, Everquest 2, Too many.
I have never had an issue with P2P mmorpg charging extra for vanity item but people here seem to go crazy when it happens.
I always hear the argument if I pay $15 a month I want 100% of the game...which I think is a little silly...what is wrong if someone is willing to pay a little extra for a few pixels that will not affect your game play in any way at all.
I play MMORPGs to be immersed in a fantasy world. Putting real life dollars in that world pretty much kills all my immersion.
I don't care that your cloak only looks cool. I care that it cost $1.95 real dollars.
I don't want to see real dollars in the game. I want to see only gold, silver, platinum, credits, etc. , that are in no way related to real life dollars.
Well, everything you see basically is dollars if you put it that way. Subscription, remember?
I seriously don't get your argument(not trying to be offensive here). I couldn't care less if a random guy has a cloak with zero advantage over anything, besides looking a bit different.
I have never had an issue with P2P mmorpg charging extra for vanity item but people here seem to go crazy when it happens.
I always hear the argument if I pay $15 a month I want 100% of the game...which I think is a little silly...what is wrong if someone is willing to pay a little extra for a few pixels that will not affect your game play in any way at all.
I play MMORPGs to be immersed in a fantasy world. Putting real life dollars in that world pretty much kills all my immersion.
I don't care that your cloak only looks cool. I care that it cost $1.95 real dollars.
I don't want to see real dollars in the game. I want to see only gold, silver, platinum, credits, etc. , that are in no way related to real life dollars.
The whole point of a mmorpg is you aquire this stuff by the means of playing the game that you then show off. This is law 1, if they circumvent this law they deserve a beating.
I have never had an issue with P2P mmorpg charging extra for vanity item but people here seem to go crazy when it happens.
I always hear the argument if I pay $15 a month I want 100% of the game...which I think is a little silly...what is wrong if someone is willing to pay a little extra for a few pixels that will not affect your game play in any way at all.
I play MMORPGs to be immersed in a fantasy world. Putting real life dollars in that world pretty much kills all my immersion.
I don't care that your cloak only looks cool. I care that it cost $1.95 real dollars.
I don't want to see real dollars in the game. I want to see only gold, silver, platinum, credits, etc. , that are in no way related to real life dollars.
Well, everything you see basically is dollars if you put it that way. Subscription, remember?
I seriously don't get your argument(not trying to be offensive here). I couldn't care less if a random guy has a cloak with zero advantage over anything, besides looking a bit different.
I think it's just nonsense, really. I do.
Well, if you truly don't understand, and actually wish to engage in conversation, let me elaborate.
I don't mind anything that is OUTSIDE the game.
The sub fee is not inside the game. My character doesn't pay a subscription fee.
My character doesn't buy an internet connection.
Or let's say it's a server transfer. My character doesn't purchase with real life dollars a ticket to another universe.
I, the real person, not the character, pays the company to move my character to another server.
It's OUTSIDE the game.
Everything INSIDE the game, the quests, mob slaying, gear collection, crafting, roleplay, etc., etc., I want to be separate from the real world, and real world dollars.
One way, I'm playing ebay or online shopping (dollars in the game).
The other way, I'm playing a character in an imaginary world.
I don't mind if you like cash shops.
If you LIKE playing ebay with a toon, and you enjoy that, it's perfectly fine with me. I just dont' care for it.
I pay 15 bucks a month, and then forget all about money inside the game world.
I want that sword, or more xp to gain a level, or that cool cloak.
With a subscription, I never, ever, inside the game world, have to think, oh, how many real dollars and cents does this cost, can I afford to make this purchase, will I get value from this purchase?
There are f2p games with item shops. why should I play a p2p game with item shop? AND pay for a box? And when there are games like guild Wars 2 which is b2p? It simply shows how greedy those people are and I'm yet to see a game worth all this money. Besides everyone knows when there is a cash shop in game developers start to abuse it. It's never only vanity items. You can dream that developers will be fair and won't sell anything affecting gameplay but it's simply not true in the long time.
the cost of MMOs as games is really really high, 50$ for the game and expansions + 15$ a month where already for most P2P about 10$ is pure profit.
I play MMOs to play a game where I work on making my char better and better looking, and vanity is really nice addition to the way of making your char alittle bit more special. I dont care if the vanity is on some merchant for just about no ingame money or is really really high priced, as long as its ingame money or achieved through quests or killing some named, or found in a dungeon (not instance please ). and atleast EQ2 could for sure need more ingame money sinks, and more things to go for, in the "every day" game...meaning on non raidnights, or for if you want to stay a casual player.
the fact is we give these games LOADs of money, whole reason there is so many in the making. sure its buisness but I pay to play a gamek, not to be in a mall, and keep being told ow we got this and that and it ONLY costs 1.99$ or whatever, instead of adding choices in the game.
you will see...WoW will soon add in game houses so that they can sell house items on their cash shop, like EQ2 does....even if there is carpenters, making player made house items, and already is millions of dropped items. just that the cash shop furniture looks alot diffrent from what else is in game - wether you like the looks of it or not depends on taste I guess
The idea that "it's only pixels so it doesn't matter" is a complete fallacy. Everything you see on your computer is pixels. The only thing that makes those pixels worth anything is the values players assign to them. And if someone is willing to pay money for pixels, then they clearly have value.
The only way a company can ever make any serious money from a cash shop is by putting things people want in the shop. And that inherently means either denying those goods to non cash-shop customers, or cheapening the achievements of non-cash shop customers who have shown in-game effort or skill to gain similar items.
And I'm back lol.
This post is ironic, because you call that quote a fallacy (when it's actually an opinion and can't be logically evaluated) while committing several fallacies yourself in your own arguments.
You use the same word "value" twice but with different meanings. The value players assign to their in game experiences are not the same as monetary value - they are what an economist would call utility (i.e. some amount of relative worth each individual person assigns to each thing). This is called the fallacy of equivocation.
Next, you purposely misinterpreted what would have been meant by the quoted phrase. Obviously, someone who says that means that the occasional cosmetic change in a game does not effect the many other factors that go into the gameplay experience - most of which have far more bearing such as actual mechanics. You distorted the argument into being "if anything is made of pixels, it has no worth." Distorting the argument and then attacking it is called the strawman fallacy.
And as far as your final arguement, developers are no more denying customers content with fluff items through a cash shop as they are denying them content by creating expansion packs for the game that offer the option of an additional playable race (and atleast in an expansion pack, other things will probably change besides aesthetics - further warranting the price). They also don't offer things that are available in the actual game, so no efforts to get different items of the same category are cheapened, unless you're talking about items such as stat-boosting equipment - which AAA mmos rarely offer in their cash shops. This is called missing the point (yes, that's a fallacy, not just a figure of speech).
Firstly, if someone is willing to pay money for something, then that's because they value it. That's basic economics. Someone would have to be absolutely stupid to pay money for something that they don't value at all.
Your second attempt at arguing against me also fails. Everyone puts different values on goods, that's natural. However, your argument basically comes down to "I can't see how it t affects me, so it doesn't matter." It's an argument of short based on selfishness. Just because it doesn't affect your value system, it doesn't mean it doesn't affect someone else's values. You may not care about looking good, but other people do (as can be clearly seen by the way people spend money). So are you really claiming that only the things you like are important and the things other people value don't matter?
And your final response is easy to provide counter examples. E.g. I understand xp boosting items are common in cash shop games. This cheapens the efforts of those who gained XP by actually playing the game. The sparkle pony from Warcraft cheapens the effort of people who gained the similar mount from raiding. If an artist at a cash shop game is asked to develop a new item for the main game, and he does a really good job and makes something highly desirable, don't you think there'd be the slightest temptation for the managers of that game to put it in the cash shop instead? Money corrupts, and if you don't understand that, then you are very naiive.
Well, the "against it" crowd has made all the good arguments and I agree with those.
1) Vanity items do matter, as proven by player's desire to have them.
2) Can and almost certainly will lead to suits adding sales of items that matter mechanically in the game.
3) Overpriced rippoffs
4) Boosts the profit structure, boosting stock values, boosting suit's stock options, meaning it's done for greed over good game design.
5) Devalues in-game play, especially in achieving said vanity items.
6) Matters to some of the players, therefore the idea of cash shops is meaningful whether some of the other players don't care or not.
There is one more issue that I haven't seen mentioned. Cash shops offer RMT type players another venue to buy for real cash and then sell in-game for game money. Some use this to boost their in-game success (which isn't earned through game play), and others use this to sell the cash shop items for more than "street value" and turn around and sell the "gold" for more than they originally paid for the item. This has the secondary effect of inflating prices in game, making those with less gold less competitive inside the game. And this has a tertiary effect that forces players to do likewise even if they don't like it, if they want to be competitive in the game's economic perspective, and what that can buy for in-game power.
Just seems like a ripoff to me that items regardless whether they're cosmetic or not are now being charged for by some companies.
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
People will whine & bitch about it, and yet they still play the game.
People can be such hippocrates.
Velika: City of Wheels: Among the mortal races, the humans were the only one that never built cities or great empires; a curse laid upon them by their creator, Gidd, forced them to wander as nomads for twenty centuries...
Because it's only a flick of a switch to start offering items that offer more than just a cosmetic advantage.
And if the target audience likes that, it's a good thing. If they don't like it, they will leave.
Or are you suggesting that MMO gamers are just really stupid, and they will not only play a game they don't like, but will actually pay extra to do so? Is that any way to talk about your fellow gamers, uohaloran?
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
People will whine & bitch about it, and yet they still play the game.
People can be such hippocrates.
quite a few of those who do complain however do move on to other games that don't offer those types of services, so while its no doubt true that some do just complain, and do little else, their far less likely to stay with the game for any length of time anyway, personally any game that was subscription based, that also introduced micro transactions to supplement the gameplay for whatever reason i would not be a party to. you have to draw the line somewhere, if you don't then that kind of thing will only get worse imo.
Because anyone who isnt slavering for corporate cock knows its a total ripoff. You paid for the development of those vanity items with your subscription, which you are now being asked to pay for again...
Besides the fact that its never JUST vanity items, and it always quickly becomes more than that. Additionally, the vanity items are usually massively overpriced (see $25 reskinned sparklepony)
That is a very easy and seemingly logically sound argument to make. However, in truth you have no idea what funds and resources were used to develop the item shop content, nor do you know how much were needed. Also, we have no basis for saying that the items will escalate from cosmetic to useful once a company starts developing for an item shop. No reputable, P2P MMOG company has yet made that mistake, and I seriously doubt we will ever see in happen from major developers. Yes, the namby-pamby F2P game companies will always sell "game-changing" items in their item shops however, they don't count... yes it theoretically could happen, but I find it highly unlikely.
I hate it because they only make the game more expensive when they instead should find ways to make the MMO cheaper for the players so more people would join and in the end make more money.
Look at champions online. Its a "decent" game but lacking alot of the MMO feal. Why does it have a monthly subscription and a cash shop? To have few people (fans) who spend ALOT of money (same with STO) instead of ALOT of people who spend less.
What if CO instead relased without monthly subscription, selling vanity items, respecs and more character slots? The biggest feature in CO is making characters so they would make tons of money from selling charcter slots.
Someone made a thread stating that MMOs are overcharging "casual" players and undercharging "hardcore" players which I tihnk is a valid point. Why do people have to pay the same $15/month no matter if you play 10 or 100 hours in that month?
Adding vanity items to this then you decide to charge the casual even more since thoose are most likely to care about hoose kind of things while "hardcore" players is not that interested.
So start charging the "hardcore" players more instead of the "casual"
If WoW = The Beatles and WAR = Led Zeppelin Then LotrO = Pink Floyd
People will whine & bitch about it, and yet they still play the game.
People can be such hippocrates.
quite a few of those who do complain however do move on to other games that don't offer those types of services, so while its no doubt true that some do just complain, and do little else, their far less likely to stay with the game for any length of time anyway, personally any game that was subscription based, that also introduced micro transactions to supplement the gameplay for whatever reason i would not be a party to. you have to draw the line somewhere, if you don't then that kind of thing will only get worse imo.
Very true. With the coming of the cash shops to P2P my choices of what I will play have become smaller. Not even a quality MMO with a cash shop will be considered. I have been watching RIft and SWTOR but after the DA DLC fiasco im convinced SWTOR will contain an item shop. That leaves Rift and if an item shop in included then I will continue playing single player games.
WOW isnt great because it has 12 million players. WOW has 12 million players because its great.
Comments
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strawman
Oh look, I can quote wiki too, how clever.
My point (and that of others) remains valid, whatever you try and quote at it. You are arguing that vanity items have no impact on the gameplay of others, so what that vanity item is shouldn't matter should it? Nor should how much the company charges for it. (and the prices will rise until they make as much as they think they can)
Once you accept that the company can add items, appearances or whatever that players can buy there is simply no limit (other than player backlash) to what they can add or how much they can charge for it. My example was basically accurate (I'll admit the dragon sword thing was gameplay, got a bit carried away), but the idea of cosmetic clothing and housing has certainly been brought up before as have limited time and promo offers. So why not a one of a kind per server offer? Why not a "cosmetic" suit that is full royal regalia and a "cosmetic" house that is a full sized castle? After all, it wouldn't affect YOUR gameplay. Why is your entirely arbitrary distinction between what elements can be sold and which have to be universal the "right" one?
We are still talking (at least nominally) about RPGs here, appearances matter to a LOT of people. Many players spend massive effort on their clothing, cosmetic sets of gear and/or mounts. In games where this stuff is player crafted, the crafters will tell you that it sells better and more reliably than nearly anything else. So, why can this be dismissed out of hand just because you think it is somehow a trivial aspect of the game?
Lastly, let me tell you a story of a very early "cash shop" gone horribly wrong.
There is a type of ongoing pen&paper RPG played at conventions across the US (and beyond) where you play the same character from session to session, convention to convention. They are generally called "living" whatever games; the first major one was 'Living City', run by the RPGA/TSR using a specific edition of Advanced Dungeons and Dragons. They are much like MMOs, you level up from game to game and acquire gear along the way - certified from the module you played in that session.
After it had been running for a while, someone had the brilliant idea of getting players to donate unused and unwanted items from their characters to be auctioned in a charity auction. People did, things sold for a few bucks and pretty much everyone was happy with it. This went on for a while, until someone at RPGA got the idea of handing out special *new* items that had never existed in the modules and were only given out through the auctions. Prices on these items skyrocketed and the items got more and more intrusive into gameplay, capping with the auctioning of a unique pet familiar at GenCon. I watched someone pay in the range of $1000 for a "cosmetic" pet that only existed on a sheet of paper.
So, don't try and tell me it can't happen or that these practices don't escalate until they hit some massive barrier of player blowback.
I am getting into the topic quite late.. but I am in agreement with anyone who has stated that as long as they remain "vanity" items and don't effect gameplay in anyway, I am all for developer making more cash so they can put out more material. Take League of Legends of example.. you have the ability to buy riot points to purchase different skins for your champions which make them money and strokes our e-peen's a little. I might go as far to say that in F2P games I don't mind people buying XP boosters either because I can get there as well.. just 10% slower. Things I do mind are things that make crafting less risky and gives anyone a blatant edge.. CS items that give more dmg for a certain time.. all that should be taken out.
So in conclusion.. vanity items, skins, pets (non combat), and xp boosters are all fine for me.. just nothing that makes anyone OP.
Cause it has an impact on the world and the virtual world I want MMOs to be.
I think it depends on what the vanity item actually is and in what genre. For example, I was playing City of Heroes and wanted to make a specific character I had in mind. The only way to do it was to buy an item or three from the Cash Shop to create the image. Personally I think that's very wrong, the game is designed so that people can make the hero of their choice, it says you can do that when you buy the game and pay the subscription. Having to pay extra to create a very specific hero is just ridiculous.
However, in other games such as Lord of the Rings Online, for example. Let's say you have a mount that's a plain brown and you can buy a new skin for it from the Cash Shop to make it white with black spots. I really don't see how that interferes with anything. You still have a mount if you don't buy it, but if you really have to put the finishing touch to your imagined appearance then you can make it white with spots.
In the first example the player is affected because the only way they can be the hero they imagined is by purchasing extras. In the second example they're already the character they want to be, placing a different color on a horse is purely cosmetic. That's how I see it anyway.
the real problem is they come in with nothing but useless cosmetics in the store, and then after they get you to accept it whammo now you can buy things that give you an edge, and if you dont buy them you cant compete.
I play MMORPGs to be immersed in a fantasy world. Putting real life dollars in that world pretty much kills all my immersion.
I don't care that your cloak only looks cool. I care that it cost $1.95 real dollars.
I don't want to see real dollars in the game. I want to see only gold, silver, platinum, credits, etc. , that are in no way related to real life dollars.
Because I'd rather not pay $50 for a game, $15 a month subscription fee, and then have some asshole expecting me to pay extra dollars for these types of things.
Currently playing - FF14ARR
Previous games - SWG, World of Warcraft, ShadowBane, Warhammer, Age of Conan, Darkfall, Planetside Asheron's Call, Everquest, Everquest 2, Too many.
I"ve read posts taht claim vanity items have no impact on the game.
That's a silly argument. If vanity items had no impact on the game, no one would buy them.
Think of it this way.
What if it was a single player game. Would you go online, pay real money, to download a costume for your single player game character?
Really?
Well, everything you see basically is dollars if you put it that way. Subscription, remember?
I seriously don't get your argument(not trying to be offensive here). I couldn't care less if a random guy has a cloak with zero advantage over anything, besides looking a bit different.
I think it's just nonsense, really. I do.
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Exactly.
The fantasy world has to be self-contained.
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The whole point of a mmorpg is you aquire this stuff by the means of playing the game that you then show off. This is law 1, if they circumvent this law they deserve a beating.
Well, if you truly don't understand, and actually wish to engage in conversation, let me elaborate.
I don't mind anything that is OUTSIDE the game.
The sub fee is not inside the game. My character doesn't pay a subscription fee.
My character doesn't buy an internet connection.
Or let's say it's a server transfer. My character doesn't purchase with real life dollars a ticket to another universe.
I, the real person, not the character, pays the company to move my character to another server.
It's OUTSIDE the game.
Everything INSIDE the game, the quests, mob slaying, gear collection, crafting, roleplay, etc., etc., I want to be separate from the real world, and real world dollars.
One way, I'm playing ebay or online shopping (dollars in the game).
The other way, I'm playing a character in an imaginary world.
I don't mind if you like cash shops.
If you LIKE playing ebay with a toon, and you enjoy that, it's perfectly fine with me. I just dont' care for it.
I pay 15 bucks a month, and then forget all about money inside the game world.
I want that sword, or more xp to gain a level, or that cool cloak.
With a subscription, I never, ever, inside the game world, have to think, oh, how many real dollars and cents does this cost, can I afford to make this purchase, will I get value from this purchase?
I don't want to think like that in a game.
There are f2p games with item shops. why should I play a p2p game with item shop? AND pay for a box? And when there are games like guild Wars 2 which is b2p? It simply shows how greedy those people are and I'm yet to see a game worth all this money. Besides everyone knows when there is a cash shop in game developers start to abuse it. It's never only vanity items. You can dream that developers will be fair and won't sell anything affecting gameplay but it's simply not true in the long time.
the cost of MMOs as games is really really high, 50$ for the game and expansions + 15$ a month where already for most P2P about 10$ is pure profit.
I play MMOs to play a game where I work on making my char better and better looking, and vanity is really nice addition to the way of making your char alittle bit more special. I dont care if the vanity is on some merchant for just about no ingame money or is really really high priced, as long as its ingame money or achieved through quests or killing some named, or found in a dungeon (not instance please
). and atleast EQ2 could for sure need more ingame money sinks, and more things to go for, in the "every day" game...meaning on non raidnights, or for if you want to stay a casual player.
the fact is we give these games LOADs of money, whole reason there is so many in the making. sure its buisness but I pay to play a gamek, not to be in a mall, and keep being told ow we got this and that and it ONLY costs 1.99$ or whatever, instead of adding choices in the game.
you will see...WoW will soon add in game houses so that they can sell house items on their cash shop, like EQ2 does....even if there is carpenters, making player made house items, and already is millions of dropped items. just that the cash shop furniture looks alot diffrent from what else is in game - wether you like the looks of it or not depends on taste I guess
Nope, I don't believe I committed any fallacties.
Firstly, if someone is willing to pay money for something, then that's because they value it. That's basic economics. Someone would have to be absolutely stupid to pay money for something that they don't value at all.
Your second attempt at arguing against me also fails. Everyone puts different values on goods, that's natural. However, your argument basically comes down to "I can't see how it t affects me, so it doesn't matter." It's an argument of short based on selfishness. Just because it doesn't affect your value system, it doesn't mean it doesn't affect someone else's values. You may not care about looking good, but other people do (as can be clearly seen by the way people spend money). So are you really claiming that only the things you like are important and the things other people value don't matter?
And your final response is easy to provide counter examples. E.g. I understand xp boosting items are common in cash shop games. This cheapens the efforts of those who gained XP by actually playing the game. The sparkle pony from Warcraft cheapens the effort of people who gained the similar mount from raiding. If an artist at a cash shop game is asked to develop a new item for the main game, and he does a really good job and makes something highly desirable, don't you think there'd be the slightest temptation for the managers of that game to put it in the cash shop instead? Money corrupts, and if you don't understand that, then you are very naiive.
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Well, the "against it" crowd has made all the good arguments and I agree with those.
1) Vanity items do matter, as proven by player's desire to have them.
2) Can and almost certainly will lead to suits adding sales of items that matter mechanically in the game.
3) Overpriced rippoffs
4) Boosts the profit structure, boosting stock values, boosting suit's stock options, meaning it's done for greed over good game design.
5) Devalues in-game play, especially in achieving said vanity items.
6) Matters to some of the players, therefore the idea of cash shops is meaningful whether some of the other players don't care or not.
There is one more issue that I haven't seen mentioned. Cash shops offer RMT type players another venue to buy for real cash and then sell in-game for game money. Some use this to boost their in-game success (which isn't earned through game play), and others use this to sell the cash shop items for more than "street value" and turn around and sell the "gold" for more than they originally paid for the item. This has the secondary effect of inflating prices in game, making those with less gold less competitive inside the game. And this has a tertiary effect that forces players to do likewise even if they don't like it, if they want to be competitive in the game's economic perspective, and what that can buy for in-game power.
Once upon a time....
Just seems like a ripoff to me that items regardless whether they're cosmetic or not are now being charged for by some companies.
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
People will whine & bitch about it, and yet they still play the game.
People can be such hippocrates.
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Some actually don't
Others are playing the best option available to them despite not likeing aspects of that game
Once upon a time....
And if the target audience likes that, it's a good thing. If they don't like it, they will leave.
Or are you suggesting that MMO gamers are just really stupid, and they will not only play a game they don't like, but will actually pay extra to do so? Is that any way to talk about your fellow gamers, uohaloran?
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quite a few of those who do complain however do move on to other games that don't offer those types of services, so while its no doubt true that some do just complain, and do little else, their far less likely to stay with the game for any length of time anyway, personally any game that was subscription based, that also introduced micro transactions to supplement the gameplay for whatever reason i would not be a party to. you have to draw the line somewhere, if you don't then that kind of thing will only get worse imo.
He said "reputable".
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I hate it because they only make the game more expensive when they instead should find ways to make the MMO cheaper for the players so more people would join and in the end make more money.
Look at champions online. Its a "decent" game but lacking alot of the MMO feal. Why does it have a monthly subscription and a cash shop? To have few people (fans) who spend ALOT of money (same with STO) instead of ALOT of people who spend less.
What if CO instead relased without monthly subscription, selling vanity items, respecs and more character slots? The biggest feature in CO is making characters so they would make tons of money from selling charcter slots.
Someone made a thread stating that MMOs are overcharging "casual" players and undercharging "hardcore" players which I tihnk is a valid point. Why do people have to pay the same $15/month no matter if you play 10 or 100 hours in that month?
Adding vanity items to this then you decide to charge the casual even more since thoose are most likely to care about hoose kind of things while "hardcore" players is not that interested.
So start charging the "hardcore" players more instead of the "casual"
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Very true. With the coming of the cash shops to P2P my choices of what I will play have become smaller. Not even a quality MMO with a cash shop will be considered. I have been watching RIft and SWTOR but after the DA DLC fiasco im convinced SWTOR will contain an item shop. That leaves Rift and if an item shop in included then I will continue playing single player games.
WOW isnt great because it has 12 million players. WOW has 12 million players because its great.