I have never had an issue with P2P mmorpg charging extra for vanity item but people here seem to go crazy when it happens.
I always hear the argument if I pay $15 a month I want 100% of the game...which I think is a little silly...what is wrong if someone is willing to pay a little extra for a few pixels that will not affect your game play in any way at all.
I don't think it's a silly argument. I think it's a very valid point, players paid the 15$ a month to have access to all the game and it's content, (and also buy expansions). Come the cash shop which introduces items that they cannot get unless they pay, and those items are about half the price of an expansion, which is ridiculous (WoW mount at 20-25$ anyone?).
The players have been supporting the company by buying each of their expansions, paying monthly subs, etc and then they are faced with items that they cannot acquire in-game.
It's really a legitimate complain. Cash Shop should stay in F2P games or Hybrid games such as DDO (and soon-to-be LOTRO). Being that you play entirely for free on those games, having a Cash Shop may still deny content in certain games, but at least these players haven't paid a buck in the first place to keep the server going. Not to say that all F2P denies content though, most games do not actually, but to take DDO and LOTRO as an exemple, you will need to buy content pack to advance further in the game, which I think is completly fine. On the other hand you may choose to simply pay a monthly sub and not worry about having to buy content packs as it gives you full access to the game, and even gives you Turbine Points per month that you can use in the cash shop.
This is a common misconception usually brought forth by younger consumers. They feel like their 15 bucks (because they don't have much to begin with) entitles them to the world. I for one would like to see where it says your subscription entitles you to everything the game has to offer. If this were the case, they would give all merchandise and such to you for free as well.
Do you expect to get free WoW T-Shirts, mugs, action figures, trading cards, WoW-Headset, WoW-mouse etc etc, all for monthly $15? Absolutely not, but because it's an in-game item you feel like you're entitled to it?
Again, a horrible misconception.
It has nothing to do with a misconception brought by younger consumers (really?). When they tell you that your monthly sub gives you access to the whole game, that should be the case. The fact that Cash Shop is added in a game where the players were supposed to have 100% access to the game makes this statement invalid, as you do not have access to 100% of the game. That's the main issue people have and it has nothing to do with monetary value of the 15$. The issue is with the principles.
Some players have supported a game and put quite a bit of money into the game, buying expansions, paying monthly subs, etc to gain the full access, to the point where there is a feeling of entitlement. Adding the Cash Shop is asking many costumers to pay more when they are already paying for a fee. Of course it's a Cash Shop that they are not "forced" to use, but when players believe that they had access to 100% of the game, they'll likely want to get those cash shop items, or simply quit because they can't stand the "greed".
Reminds of me WoW' Celestial Steed mount that made 2 millions in 4 hours, that'a amazing.
Just playing devil's advocate here but we all pay $15 to access the game but Roland plays 10 hours a week while Chester plays 10 hours a day. Should we restrict Chester's access to even things out .Give everyone an even playfield so to speak ? This way Chester will not gain an unfair advantage over Roland by playing so much more and thereby enabling him to get more money and items and thereby making him more overpowered than Roland.
The fact that Chester is using the access way more than Roland should not Chester pay more ? All things being equal and all or is this an Orwellian theme of equality ?
No need to play Devil's Advocate, just change the pricing model to a hybrid type like DDO or the soon-to-be F2P, LOTRO. Allow players to either sub and gain 100% content of the game, or buy Content Pack for Casual Players so that they may take their time to complete a zone. Problem solved.
Though since DDO and LOTRO does involve cash shop, subscribers receive 500-1000 Turbine Points per month to use in the cash shop. I think it's really great model that does not put neither of the players at a disadvantage.
I have never had an issue with P2P mmorpg charging extra for vanity item but people here seem to go crazy when it happens.
I always hear the argument if I pay $15 a month I want 100% of the game...which I think is a little silly...what is wrong if someone is willing to pay a little extra for a few pixels that will not affect your game play in any way at all.
I don't think it's a silly argument. I think it's a very valid point, players paid the 15$ a month to have access to all the game and it's content, (and also buy expansions). Come the cash shop which introduces items that they cannot get unless they pay, and those items are about half the price of an expansion, which is ridiculous (WoW mount at 20-25$ anyone?).
The players have been supporting the company by buying each of their expansions, paying monthly subs, etc and then they are faced with items that they cannot acquire in-game.
It's really a legitimate complain. Cash Shop should stay in F2P games or Hybrid games such as DDO (and soon-to-be LOTRO). Being that you play entirely for free on those games, having a Cash Shop may still deny content in certain games, but at least these players haven't paid a buck in the first place to keep the server going. Not to say that all F2P denies content though, most games do not actually, but to take DDO and LOTRO as an exemple, you will need to buy content pack to advance further in the game, which I think is completly fine. On the other hand you may choose to simply pay a monthly sub and not worry about having to buy content packs as it gives you full access to the game, and even gives you Turbine Points per month that you can use in the cash shop.
This is a common misconception usually brought forth by younger consumers. They feel like their 15 bucks (because they don't have much to begin with) entitles them to the world. I for one would like to see where it says your subscription entitles you to everything the game has to offer. If this were the case, they would give all merchandise and such to you for free as well.
Do you expect to get free WoW T-Shirts, mugs, action figures, trading cards, WoW-Headset, WoW-mouse etc etc, all for monthly $15? Absolutely not, but because it's an in-game item you feel like you're entitled to it?
Again, a horrible misconception.
Talk about the young people being rediculous.
Sigh if you're going to try the 'cool guy' post, at least spell ridiculous correctly.
"
It has nothing to do with a misconception brought by younger consumers (really?). When they tell you that your monthly sub gives you access to the whole game, that should be the case. The fact that Cash Shop is added in a game where the players were supposed to have 100% access to the game makes this statement invalid, as you do not have access to 100% of the game. That's the main issue people have and it has nothing to do with monetary value.
Some players have supported a game and put quite a bit of money into the game, buying expansions, paying monthly subs, etc, to the point where there is a feeling of entitlement. Adding the Cash Shop is asking many costumers to pay more when they are already paying for a fee. Of course it's a Cash Shop that they are not "forced" to use, but when players believe that they had access to 100% of the game, they'll likely want to get those cash shop items, or simply quit because they can't stand the "greed".
Reminds of me WoW' Celestial Steed mount that made 2 millions in 4 hours, that'a amazing."
This is exactly it. I want you to show me WHERE it says you're entitled to 100% of the game and all of its virtual content. Read the TOS, everything in the game world belongs to the company. Your character, even though you pay $15 a month, doesn't BELONG to you.
Reminds of me WoW' Celestial Steed mount that made 2 millions in 4 hours, that'a amazing.
2 million dollars ? Are you kidding they made 2 million dollars. Well hmm obviously there is a market then.
There is no agreement as far as what you are entitled to in game for your monthly sub. You all argue like it is a given that you're entitled to items and other vanity stuff because of your $15 . Their game and you sign the EULA and they can change their mind on what your $15 entitles you to. Yes it sucks that 2 years down the road you see the item shop go in but this are business decisions that you can disagree to by leaving.
Once upon a time I got free prawn crackers when I went to eat chinese noodles at the corner shop then one day they started charging extra for it without sending me a 4 page memo on it . I stopped getting them, they were fattening anyway. Things change ,business practices change. That is the way the world goes.
Are you that dense? Have you ever bought a sports jersey? They charge you by the letter in the back. They charge less if you just want the logo in the front with no numbers or names in the back. Wow you can't really be this dense. Your comparison is wrong on so many levels. When you pay for your vanity item, are you only getting a portion of it? No.
The MW2 comparison doesn't even work. We're talking about VANITY ITEMS. JUST FOR LOOKS. Guns affect gameplay. Man some of you people just simply can't argue objectively. Microsoft sells LOTS of vanity items to suit up your silly little virtual guy. They sell these using microsoft points. They also regularly provide costume packs, sound packs and such for their games. Do you want portugese annoucement for your Fifa 10? That's going to cost you. They don't offer these for free because you payed for the original game. You guys just make yourselves look so bad.
They charge you buy the letter, you say? Alright. So you pay the full value of the sports jersey and you get your sports jersey. That's not the case with games with a cash shop. You pay for the game and then have to pay extra if you want your character to have a flowery dress or a suit of shiny platemail. Aren't you seeing the differences here? When you pay full cost for an item you expect to have everything that item has. If you paid full cost for that sports jersey but they sent it to you with missing letters, asking you to pay extra - AFTER YOU'VE PAID FULL PRICE - would you be happy about that?
That's what we're talking about. Paying for a full item and only getting a portion of it. It's like going out to dinner and paying for a Burger and Fries but not getting the fries. You have to pay extra for those. But you've already paid for them, so why do you have to pay extra?
Reminds of me WoW' Celestial Steed mount that made 2 millions in 4 hours, that'a amazing.
2 million dollars ? Are you kidding they made 2 million dollars. Well hmm obviously there is a market then.
There is no agreement as far as what you are entitled to in game for your monthly sub. You all argue like it is a given that you're entitled to items and other vanity stuff because of your $15 . Their game and you sign the EULA and they can change their mind on what your $15 entitles you to. Yes it sucks that 2 years down the road you see the item shop go in but this are business decisions that you can disagree to by leaving.
Once upon a time I got free prawn crackers when I went to eat chinese noodles at the corner shop then one day they started charging extra for it without sending me a 4 page memo on it . I stopped getting them, they were fattening anyway. Things change ,business practices change. That is the way the world goes.
it does say on the EULA that the fee is subject to change.
Are you that dense? Have you ever bought a sports jersey? They charge you by the letter in the back. They charge less if you just want the logo in the front with no numbers or names in the back. Wow you can't really be this dense. Your comparison is wrong on so many levels. When you pay for your vanity item, are you only getting a portion of it? No.
The MW2 comparison doesn't even work. We're talking about VANITY ITEMS. JUST FOR LOOKS. Guns affect gameplay. Man some of you people just simply can't argue objectively. Microsoft sells LOTS of vanity items to suit up your silly little virtual guy. They sell these using microsoft points. They also regularly provide costume packs, sound packs and such for their games. Do you want portugese annoucement for your Fifa 10? That's going to cost you. They don't offer these for free because you payed for the original game. You guys just make yourselves look so bad.
They charge you buy the letter, you say? Alright. So you pay the full value of the sports jersey and you get your sports jersey. That's not the case with games with a cash shop. You pay for the game and then have to pay extra if you want your character to have a flowery dress or a suit of shiny platemail. Aren't you seeing the differences here? When you pay full cost for an item you expect to have everything that item has. If you paid full cost for that sports jersey but they sent it to you with missing letters, asking you to pay extra - AFTER YOU'VE PAID FULL PRICE - would you be happy about that?
That's what we're talking about. Paying for a full item and only getting a portion of it. It's like going out to dinner and paying for a Burger and Fries but not getting the fries. You have to pay extra for those. But you've already paid for them, so why do you have to pay extra?
Maybe before you rush into your favorite game next time, you should take the time to read the license agreement. It will explain to you just how wrong you are.
But to entertain you for a second. If I buy the jersey, and there's a patch I can put on it with an emblem, or maybe I want the Champions League patch on it, I would expect to pay extra.
With regards to food, don't act like you've never been somewhere where they charged for extra bbq sauce or other sides.
Once again, I'm waiting for someone like you to point out to me where it says that when you purchase the game, and pay your monthly fee, you are entitled to 100% of the game, always, so long as you're subscribed. If you search, I'm sure you will find quite the opposite.
What if it was a single player game. Would you go online, pay real money, to download a costume for your single player game character?
Really?
LOL!
Playstation Store.
Xbox store. (w/e it's called)
Especially for the Playstation's Little Big Planet and many more.
Than again you're probably going say something baseless again by saying, "It doesn't apply to PCs"
"We got rid of the trinity." How'd you do that? "Now everyone can heal." Sounds like you just took the mechanic and spread it thin. "Well no, there's one class that can do it better than others." I see, so they're healers. "No. They're.." -mind asplode-
Reminds of me WoW' Celestial Steed mount that made 2 millions in 4 hours, that'a amazing.
2 million dollars ? Are you kidding they made 2 million dollars. Well hmm obviously there is a market then.
There is no agreement as far as what you are entitled to in game for your monthly sub. You all argue like it is a given that you're entitled to items and other vanity stuff because of your $15 . Their game and you sign the EULA and they can change their mind on what your $15 entitles you to. Yes it sucks that 2 years down the road you see the item shop go in but this are business decisions that you can disagree to by leaving.
Once upon a time I got free prawn crackers when I went to eat chinese noodles at the corner shop then one day they started charging extra for it without sending me a 4 page memo on it . I stopped getting them, they were fattening anyway. Things change ,business practices change. That is the way the world goes.
I know fully well that you can disagree by leaving, and I have left various games because I didn't like the direction they were heading, especially with cash shops.
But there's a reason when players feel entitled to 100% of the game when it has been the case for 6+ years until they decide to change the model. To be fair, to take WoW's exemple again, I'm fine when they do it for charity like they did it in the past, I think it's a wonderfull action (even though only half the price on an item out of 2 actually went to charity). I can live with that. But when they launch a Cash Shop were all the money goes to them, when they already make a shit ton, sell their items at half the price of an actual Expansion box....I have to question the plans for that company.
Sigh if you're going to try the 'cool guy' post, at least spell ridiculous correctly.
"
It has nothing to do with a misconception brought by younger consumers (really?). When they tell you that your monthly sub gives you access to the whole game, that should be the case. The fact that Cash Shop is added in a game where the players were supposed to have 100% access to the game makes this statement invalid, as you do not have access to 100% of the game. That's the main issue people have and it has nothing to do with monetary value.
Some players have supported a game and put quite a bit of money into the game, buying expansions, paying monthly subs, etc, to the point where there is a feeling of entitlement. Adding the Cash Shop is asking many costumers to pay more when they are already paying for a fee. Of course it's a Cash Shop that they are not "forced" to use, but when players believe that they had access to 100% of the game, they'll likely want to get those cash shop items, or simply quit because they can't stand the "greed".
Reminds of me WoW' Celestial Steed mount that made 2 millions in 4 hours, that'a amazing."
This is exactly it. I want you to show me WHERE it says you're entitled to 100% of the game and all of its virtual content. Read the TOS, everything in the game world belongs to the company. Your character, even though you pay $15 a month, doesn't BELONG to you.
You done sighing?
Throw the word entitled around all you want, the fact is that for many years if you paid for an mmorpg's box, the sub price, and expansions, you got all of the content for that game. Western studios are now trying to squeeze the sponge to unknown lengths and yes, that has a lot of us concerned.
It's not about being entitled, it's about the industry trying to make more money while giving you less. If less for more equates to something positive in your noggin, then I wish you all the best
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
I have never had an issue with P2P mmorpg charging extra for vanity item but people here seem to go crazy when it happens.
I always hear the argument if I pay $15 a month I want 100% of the game...which I think is a little silly...what is wrong if someone is willing to pay a little extra for a few pixels that will not affect your game play in any way at all.
I don't think it's a silly argument. I think it's a very valid point, players paid the 15$ a month to have access to all the game and it's content, (and also buy expansions). Come the cash shop which introduces items that they cannot get unless they pay, and those items are about half the price of an expansion, which is ridiculous (WoW mount at 20-25$ anyone?).
The players have been supporting the company by buying each of their expansions, paying monthly subs, etc and then they are faced with items that they cannot acquire in-game.
It's really a legitimate complain. Cash Shop should stay in F2P games or Hybrid games such as DDO (and soon-to-be LOTRO). Being that you play entirely for free on those games, having a Cash Shop may still deny content in certain games, but at least these players haven't paid a buck in the first place to keep the server going. Not to say that all F2P denies content though, most games do not actually, but to take DDO and LOTRO as an exemple, you will need to buy content pack to advance further in the game, which I think is completly fine. On the other hand you may choose to simply pay a monthly sub and not worry about having to buy content packs as it gives you full access to the game, and even gives you Turbine Points per month that you can use in the cash shop.
This is a common misconception usually brought forth by younger consumers. They feel like their 15 bucks (because they don't have much to begin with) entitles them to the world. I for one would like to see where it says your subscription entitles you to everything the game has to offer. If this were the case, they would give all merchandise and such to you for free as well.
Do you expect to get free WoW T-Shirts, mugs, action figures, trading cards, WoW-Headset, WoW-mouse etc etc, all for monthly $15? Absolutely not, but because it's an in-game item you feel like you're entitled to it?
Again, a horrible misconception.
That is a horrible misconception trying to argue against said misconception.
This is about vanity items 'in-game' not merch. I guess by your logic we should let companies walk all over us and our wallets on top of a monthly fee...
Want to have access to a quest... that'll be $1 a quest.
You can have this gear...oh you want to use it? There is a fee for that
You need a potion huh? That will be $2 a stack.
What those aren't vanity you say? ask yourself that as well when you threw merch into the mix.
"We only develop the best looking mounts and armor for purchase, but it's just vanity, the stick figure mounts and armor do exactly the same thing"
Seems more like shady business rather than business
Ok because quests and potions are vanity items? Learn how to argue, you just make yourself look silly when you use things that don't even relate in your argument. Vanity items have ZERO impact on actual gameplay. I'm talking about vanity pets or a funny pancho.
Apparently you are also talking about merch which has nothing to do with the game at all (practice what you preach?), I used your logic when making those statements.
Also, how far does vanity go?
"You don't have to pay for that quest, you can just go grind mobs for that exp instead"
"You don't have to buy that potion, you can just wait for your health to regenerate"
Those don't effect what you are able to do in the game and how far you are able to go.
Anything can be turned into vanity. "Learn how to argue" ROFL you just made yourself look silly there.
Maybe before you rush into your favorite game next time, you should take the time to read the license agreement. It will explain to you just how wrong you are.
Yes, we're quite aware they're able to do these things, but is it right that they should? Why should they be able to charge us for something that, realistically, we've already paid for? Why are people supporting their ability to do so?
The difference is that you are paying a sub for access . You are not paying to get an item like food or clothes. The commerce is different. The sub entitles you to play the game but nowhere does it itemize what that sub gives you in terms of items in game. You are arguing that the sub entitles you to content after you bought the initial box. Then why do you pay for the expansion ? Shouldn't your initial investment include that. Or why not pay extra for updates that were not in the game when you started.
It is a slippery slope by right your initial box price and sub should not entitle you to updates and and new content.
It's a preference and an opinion and they are entitiled to it jsut as much as the pro Item shop let the developers do whatever they want because business is above morals and good conduct and a justification uto itself group.
The difference is that you are paying a sub for access . You are not paying to get an item like food or clothes. The commerce is different. The sub entitles you to play the game but nowhere does it itemize what that sub gives you in terms of items in game. You are arguing that the sub entitles you to content after you bought the initial box. Then why do you pay for the expansion ? Shouldn't your initial investment include that. Or why not pay extra for updates that were not in the game when you started.
It is a slippery slope by right your initial box price and sub should not entitle you to updates and and new content.
An expansion is a large product, usually involving additional areas of land, new creatures, maybe new spells or weapons, extra skills, whatever it might be. That to me is a 'product' that can be sold. A single dress for my female character is not something I should be paying money for, it should be added into the game normally or into an upcoming expansion. Imagine an expansion being itemised, where you had to pay a fee for every single thing that was added in the same way. The price would be ridiculous. So why can they charge a small amount for an expansion but justify $5 for a flowery dress?
"That comparison makes no sense whatsoever. I agree that $15 isn't some magic amount that should be the standard consumers should pay for an MMO subscription. I don't care if it's $10, $15, $20, $30 or $50 per month. The point isn't the price, but what is, and isn't included in the service you pay for. I want to pay a fee, and get access to a game world where time is the only investment I make.
If I meet someone in game who wears a cool costume, getting one for myself becomes a goal for me. I'll ask them how they got it, and start working on whatever quest, mob drop provides the outfit. If the answer is "I bought it for $5 in the cash shop", I'll likely just quit. I'd rather spend 10 hours playing the game to achieve something, than transfer the money for 10 minutes of real work from my bank account. It makes no sense from an economists point of view, but I really don't think you can put a price on virtual achievements, and a cash shop removes those from the game.
So, anyway, if an MMO is good enough to justify a higher monthly fee, fine, increase the fee, but removing the personal value of virtual achievements and killing immersion by introducing a cash shop is a game killer for me. It doesn't matter if I can afford the items in the cash shop or not. Just having it, deflates the value of the rest of the game for me to the point where I'm no longer willing to play it."
Thank you for proving my point. You'll spend 10 hours doing something that costs you 5 dollars in real life. Anyone with a job will easily make 5 dollars in 30 minutes. However, you don't value your time at $5. If you are willing to spend 10 hours doing something that would take 5 dollars then you value your hour at $0.50.
I don't know about you, but I would MUCH rather spend $5 on something that has ABSOLUTELY NO EFFECT on gameplay, than spend 10 hours of my real life "working" on it. Either you don't have a job, or you're a real tight arse, and nobody likes a tight ---. Is the entire game being offered for real life money? I doubt it, usually just vanity 'fun' items.
You're going to try to cite this economist bs when you don't even factor in opportunity costs? It's virtual merchandise, not virtual achievements. Virtual merchandise will be treated the exact same way as real merchandise. Again, back to my example.
I can see that there's not much point in arguing with you since we obviously value time and money differently, but I'll respond anyway. You are the one focusing on the money, not me. If you had read my post you'd see that I'd be willing to pay a higher subscription fee to avoid the cash shop. If you can put a great big == between time spent at work and time spent playing a game, you must either have an incredibly awesome job, or play terrible games. I work so I can afford to enjoy my time off. Playing games is one thing I choose to spend my time off on, and probably the cheapest hobby I have.
You're absolutely right, I could spend 10 minutes working for that $5 instead of spending 10 hours playing the game to achieve the same goal, but what's the point in that? The entire reason for getting that item is that it's a time investment most people won't be willing to make for an item that is trivial to them. Spending hours on getting a unique look for my character, and showing it off is something I enjoy. Showing the world that I'm willing to spend $5 in the cash shop is not.
Everything you do in an MMO requires a time investment. That's pretty much the most basic principle of MMOs and why so many people are hooked on them for years. Being allowed to pay to avoid playing the game might make it more enjoyable for you, but I'd rather play a game that is fun enough on its own merits that spending time on it doesn't feel like a punishment.
Just playing devil's advocate here but we all pay $15 to access the game but Roland plays 10 hours a week while Chester plays 10 hours a day. Should we restrict Chester's access to even things out .Give everyone an even playfield so to speak ? This way Chester will not gain an unfair advantage over Roland by playing so much more and thereby enabling him to get more money and items and thereby making him more overpowered than Roland.
The fact that Chester is using the access way more than Roland should not Chester pay more ? All things being equal and all or is this an Orwellian theme of equality ?
I don't see any advantage here. When they get to the level cap, they will both be the same. They will both get the same hours of game play (content) to get to the level cap.
Why is doing it in a month versus 6 months an advantage?
I don't see this as an advantage at all.
We both get a box of candy.
I eat one piece a day, and you eat all of yours right now.
How did you get an advantage? WE got the same amount of candy. What difference does it make that we consume it at different rates?
What if it was a single player game. Would you go online, pay real money, to download a costume for your single player game character?
Really?
LOL!
Playstation Store.
Xbox store. (w/e it's called)
Especially for the Playstation's Little Big Planet and many more.
Than again you're probably going say something baseless again by saying, "It doesn't apply to PCs"
I don't play console games. YOu could give an example of a vanity item you purchase on one of these for a single player gmae.
he did, little big planet.
I don't know what a "little big planet" is.
Is it a cloak you wear, a pretty mount? Is it a new character look, are you paying for different hair color? What sort of vanity item is it, and how much does it cost?
What if it was a single player game. Would you go online, pay real money, to download a costume for your single player game character?
Really?
LOL!
Playstation Store.
Xbox store. (w/e it's called)
Especially for the Playstation's Little Big Planet and many more.
Than again you're probably going say something baseless again by saying, "It doesn't apply to PCs"
I don't play console games. YOu could give an example of a vanity item you purchase on one of these for a single player gmae.
he did, little big planet.
I don't know what a "little big planet" is.
Is it a cloak you wear, a pretty mount? Is it a new character look, are you paying for different hair color? What sort of vanity item is it, and how much does it cost?
Well let me list the advantages as I see them . My point of view so it is entirely arbitrary.
A) By obtaining earlier access to a dungeon and items you are able to put up items on sale at the auction house which 6 months down the road will no longer fetch that price. However I do acknowledge that in some games they might fetch more. Quirky markets conditions notwithstanding this usually applies
B)Since we were discussing vanity you can parade around in your new gear before others can because you got to the content first.
C)Exploit early exploit often
D)If indeed casuals and hard core raiders can get to the same content why are there so many threads on various game boards about casuals being left out of hard core content and how they should be entitled to it.
E)Grouping opportunities that diminish as a result of others having levelled past the content before poor Roland got to it.
F)Crafting items being sold for more as a result of Chester being able to advance his craft faster and cornering the market.
G)World events in some games require you to be a certain level or able to enter some area to do a quest which Roland misses out of as a result of his impoverished invested time state.
Just off my head right now but will add on later if I can think of other things.
Sigh if you're going to try the 'cool guy' post, at least spell ridiculous correctly.
"
It has nothing to do with a misconception brought by younger consumers (really?). When they tell you that your monthly sub gives you access to the whole game, that should be the case. The fact that Cash Shop is added in a game where the players were supposed to have 100% access to the game makes this statement invalid, as you do not have access to 100% of the game. That's the main issue people have and it has nothing to do with monetary value.
Some players have supported a game and put quite a bit of money into the game, buying expansions, paying monthly subs, etc, to the point where there is a feeling of entitlement. Adding the Cash Shop is asking many costumers to pay more when they are already paying for a fee. Of course it's a Cash Shop that they are not "forced" to use, but when players believe that they had access to 100% of the game, they'll likely want to get those cash shop items, or simply quit because they can't stand the "greed".
Reminds of me WoW' Celestial Steed mount that made 2 millions in 4 hours, that'a amazing."
This is exactly it. I want you to show me WHERE it says you're entitled to 100% of the game and all of its virtual content. Read the TOS, everything in the game world belongs to the company. Your character, even though you pay $15 a month, doesn't BELONG to you.
You done sighing?
Throw the word entitled around all you want, the fact is that for many years if you paid for an mmorpg's box, the sub price, and expansions, you got all of the content for that game. Western studios are now trying to squeeze the sponge to unknown lengths and yes, that has a lot of us concerned.
It's not about being entitled, it's about the industry trying to make more money while giving you less. If less for more equates to something positive in your noggin, then I wish you all the best
Change in the business world is such a new concept. You do have point, everything was always provided before, but to what extent? Do you mean the first guild to clear X dungeon gets Y vanity item and no one else ever again gets it?
Do you mean putting that celestial steed as a .01% drop from a boss in one of the toughest raids? You seem so confident that whatever items were bought in the cash shop would be readily available in the game world. It's not about less equating to something positive for me, it's about understanding that it's in their right to sell virtual merchandise. I don't support or oppose it tbh, I don't really care. I've seen this happening for YEARS in xbox live, it never bothered me then either. I've never payed for the services, and that's the whole point - YOU DON'T HAVE TO BUY THE VANITY ITEMS.
"
Apparently you are also talking about merch which has nothing to do with the game at all (practice what you preach?), I used your logic when making those statements.
Also, how far does vanity go?
"You don't have to pay for that quest, you can just go grind mobs for that exp instead"
"You don't have to buy that potion, you can just wait for your health to regenerate"
Those don't effect what you are able to do in the game and how far you are able to go.
Anything can be turned into vanity. "Learn how to argue" ROFL you just made yourself look silly there.
"
I'm going to go ahead and assume you're still in grade school. I can't believe that actually clicked in your head.
"Yes, we're quite aware they're able to do these things, but is it right that they should? Why should they be able to charge us for something that, realistically, we've already paid for? Why are people supporting their ability to do so?"
Getting tired of saying it, but WHERE does it say you've already paid for everything?
"It is a slippery slope by right your initial box price and sub should not entitle you to updates and and new content."
This is exactly it. I'm not supporting cash shops, I'm simply trying to put things into perspective. It is a slippery sloap. Once you start offering too much in the cash shop, then people will really start to feel undone. I don't think the practice is out of this world, if done within limits.
"An expansion is a large product, usually involving additional areas of land, new creatures, maybe new spells or weapons, extra skills, whatever it might be. That to me is a 'product' that can be sold. A single dress for my female character is not something I should be paying money for, it should be added into the game normally or into an upcoming expansion. Imagine an expansion being itemised, where you had to pay a fee for every single thing that was added in the same way. The price would be ridiculous. So why can they charge a small amount for an expansion but justify $5 for a flowery dress?"
Why does it always have to resort to the sky is falling / the end of the world extreme?
"
I can see that there's not much point in arguing with you since we obviously value time and money differently, but I'll respond anyway. You are the one focusing on the money, not me. If you had read my post you'd see that I'd be willing to pay a higher subscription fee to avoid the cash shop. If you can put a great big == between time spent at work and time spent playing a game, you must either have an incredibly awesome job, or play terrible games. I work so I can afford to enjoy my time off. Playing games is one thing I choose to spend my time off on, and probably the cheapest hobby I have.
You're absolutely right, I could spend 10 minutes working for that $5 instead of spending 10 hours playing the game to achieve the same goal, but what's the point in that? The entire reason for getting that item is that it's a time investment most people won't be willing to make for an item that is trivial to them. Spending hours on getting a unique look for my character, and showing it off is something I enjoy. Showing the world that I'm willing to spend $5 in the cash shop is not.
Everything you do in an MMO requires a time investment. That's pretty much the most basic principle of MMOs and why so many people are hooked on them for years. Being allowed to pay to avoid playing the game might make it more enjoyable for you, but I'd rather play a game that is fun enough on its own merits that spending time on it doesn't feel like a punishment."
You're assuming that the item will be placed somewhere accessible by you. What if you need a raid of 100 players to get this item? What if only one drops per week, at a .01% drop rate, and never more than one per server, per week. Would you still be happy it was available in-game for free? Would this make you quit like having to pay 5 bux for something would?
I guess we are more different than just time and money value. I look at vanity items as something fun for me, personally. I don't see it as something that I need to show off to other people for acknowledgement of my achievements. Vain people spend more many than anyone else being just that, vain. Yet, you guys are surprised when you have to pay for vanity items in a game?
I have never had an issue with P2P mmorpg charging extra for vanity item but people here seem to go crazy when it happens.
I always hear the argument if I pay $15 a month I want 100% of the game...which I think is a little silly...what is wrong if someone is willing to pay a little extra for a few pixels that will not affect your game play in any way at all.
I don't think it's a silly argument. I think it's a very valid point, players paid the 15$ a month to have access to all the game and it's content, (and also buy expansions). Come the cash shop which introduces items that they cannot get unless they pay, and those items are about half the price of an expansion, which is ridiculous (WoW mount at 20-25$ anyone?).
The players have been supporting the company by buying each of their expansions, paying monthly subs, etc and then they are faced with items that they cannot acquire in-game.
It's really a legitimate complain. Cash Shop should stay in F2P games or Hybrid games such as DDO (and soon-to-be LOTRO). Being that you play entirely for free on those games, having a Cash Shop may still deny content in certain games, but at least these players haven't paid a buck in the first place to keep the server going. Not to say that all F2P denies content though, most games do not actually, but to take DDO and LOTRO as an exemple, you will need to buy content pack to advance further in the game, which I think is completly fine. On the other hand you may choose to simply pay a monthly sub and not worry about having to buy content packs as it gives you full access to the game, and even gives you Turbine Points per month that you can use in the cash shop.
This is a common misconception usually brought forth by younger consumers. They feel like their 15 bucks (because they don't have much to begin with) entitles them to the world. I for one would like to see where it says your subscription entitles you to everything the game has to offer. If this were the case, they would give all merchandise and such to you for free as well.
Do you expect to get free WoW T-Shirts, mugs, action figures, trading cards, WoW-Headset, WoW-mouse etc etc, all for monthly $15? Absolutely not, but because it's an in-game item you feel like you're entitled to it?
Again, a horrible misconception.
Talk about the young people being rediculous.
Sigh if you're going to try the 'cool guy' post, at least spell ridiculous correctly.
"
It has nothing to do with a misconception brought by younger consumers (really?). When they tell you that your monthly sub gives you access to the whole game, that should be the case. The fact that Cash Shop is added in a game where the players were supposed to have 100% access to the game makes this statement invalid, as you do not have access to 100% of the game. That's the main issue people have and it has nothing to do with monetary value.
Some players have supported a game and put quite a bit of money into the game, buying expansions, paying monthly subs, etc, to the point where there is a feeling of entitlement. Adding the Cash Shop is asking many costumers to pay more when they are already paying for a fee. Of course it's a Cash Shop that they are not "forced" to use, but when players believe that they had access to 100% of the game, they'll likely want to get those cash shop items, or simply quit because they can't stand the "greed".
Reminds of me WoW' Celestial Steed mount that made 2 millions in 4 hours, that'a amazing."
This is exactly it. I want you to show me WHERE it says you're entitled to 100% of the game and all of its virtual content. Read the TOS, everything in the game world belongs to the company. Your character, even though you pay $15 a month, doesn't BELONG to you.
Xbox live has done this for years.
Yes your correct. The comparison of ingame gear to T shirts is spot on. You get to be the cool one.
WOW isnt great because it has 12 million players. WOW has 12 million players because its great.
Comments
It has nothing to do with a misconception brought by younger consumers (really?). When they tell you that your monthly sub gives you access to the whole game, that should be the case. The fact that Cash Shop is added in a game where the players were supposed to have 100% access to the game makes this statement invalid, as you do not have access to 100% of the game. That's the main issue people have and it has nothing to do with monetary value of the 15$. The issue is with the principles.
Some players have supported a game and put quite a bit of money into the game, buying expansions, paying monthly subs, etc to gain the full access, to the point where there is a feeling of entitlement. Adding the Cash Shop is asking many costumers to pay more when they are already paying for a fee. Of course it's a Cash Shop that they are not "forced" to use, but when players believe that they had access to 100% of the game, they'll likely want to get those cash shop items, or simply quit because they can't stand the "greed".
Reminds of me WoW' Celestial Steed mount that made 2 millions in 4 hours, that'a amazing.
No need to play Devil's Advocate, just change the pricing model to a hybrid type like DDO or the soon-to-be F2P, LOTRO. Allow players to either sub and gain 100% content of the game, or buy Content Pack for Casual Players so that they may take their time to complete a zone. Problem solved.
Though since DDO and LOTRO does involve cash shop, subscribers receive 500-1000 Turbine Points per month to use in the cash shop. I think it's really great model that does not put neither of the players at a disadvantage.
Sigh if you're going to try the 'cool guy' post, at least spell ridiculous correctly.
"
It has nothing to do with a misconception brought by younger consumers (really?). When they tell you that your monthly sub gives you access to the whole game, that should be the case. The fact that Cash Shop is added in a game where the players were supposed to have 100% access to the game makes this statement invalid, as you do not have access to 100% of the game. That's the main issue people have and it has nothing to do with monetary value.
Some players have supported a game and put quite a bit of money into the game, buying expansions, paying monthly subs, etc, to the point where there is a feeling of entitlement. Adding the Cash Shop is asking many costumers to pay more when they are already paying for a fee. Of course it's a Cash Shop that they are not "forced" to use, but when players believe that they had access to 100% of the game, they'll likely want to get those cash shop items, or simply quit because they can't stand the "greed".
Reminds of me WoW' Celestial Steed mount that made 2 millions in 4 hours, that'a amazing."
This is exactly it. I want you to show me WHERE it says you're entitled to 100% of the game and all of its virtual content. Read the TOS, everything in the game world belongs to the company. Your character, even though you pay $15 a month, doesn't BELONG to you.
Xbox live has done this for years.
2 million dollars ? Are you kidding they made 2 million dollars. Well hmm obviously there is a market then.
There is no agreement as far as what you are entitled to in game for your monthly sub. You all argue like it is a given that you're entitled to items and other vanity stuff because of your $15 . Their game and you sign the EULA and they can change their mind on what your $15 entitles you to. Yes it sucks that 2 years down the road you see the item shop go in but this are business decisions that you can disagree to by leaving.
Once upon a time I got free prawn crackers when I went to eat chinese noodles at the corner shop then one day they started charging extra for it without sending me a 4 page memo on it . I stopped getting them, they were fattening anyway. Things change ,business practices change. That is the way the world goes.
They charge you buy the letter, you say? Alright. So you pay the full value of the sports jersey and you get your sports jersey. That's not the case with games with a cash shop. You pay for the game and then have to pay extra if you want your character to have a flowery dress or a suit of shiny platemail. Aren't you seeing the differences here? When you pay full cost for an item you expect to have everything that item has. If you paid full cost for that sports jersey but they sent it to you with missing letters, asking you to pay extra - AFTER YOU'VE PAID FULL PRICE - would you be happy about that?
That's what we're talking about. Paying for a full item and only getting a portion of it. It's like going out to dinner and paying for a Burger and Fries but not getting the fries. You have to pay extra for those. But you've already paid for them, so why do you have to pay extra?
it does say on the EULA that the fee is subject to change.
it say it on all mmorpg games
March on! - Lets Invade Pekopon
Maybe before you rush into your favorite game next time, you should take the time to read the license agreement. It will explain to you just how wrong you are.
But to entertain you for a second. If I buy the jersey, and there's a patch I can put on it with an emblem, or maybe I want the Champions League patch on it, I would expect to pay extra.
With regards to food, don't act like you've never been somewhere where they charged for extra bbq sauce or other sides.
Once again, I'm waiting for someone like you to point out to me where it says that when you purchase the game, and pay your monthly fee, you are entitled to 100% of the game, always, so long as you're subscribed. If you search, I'm sure you will find quite the opposite.
LOL!
Playstation Store.
Xbox store. (w/e it's called)
Especially for the Playstation's Little Big Planet and many more.
Than again you're probably going say something baseless again by saying, "It doesn't apply to PCs"
"We got rid of the trinity." How'd you do that? "Now everyone can heal." Sounds like you just took the mechanic and spread it thin. "Well no, there's one class that can do it better than others." I see, so they're healers. "No. They're.." -mind asplode-
http://www.1up.com/news/fancy-horse-blizzard-2-million
I know fully well that you can disagree by leaving, and I have left various games because I didn't like the direction they were heading, especially with cash shops.
But there's a reason when players feel entitled to 100% of the game when it has been the case for 6+ years until they decide to change the model. To be fair, to take WoW's exemple again, I'm fine when they do it for charity like they did it in the past, I think it's a wonderfull action (even though only half the price on an item out of 2 actually went to charity). I can live with that. But when they launch a Cash Shop were all the money goes to them, when they already make a shit ton, sell their items at half the price of an actual Expansion box....I have to question the plans for that company.
You done sighing?
Throw the word entitled around all you want, the fact is that for many years if you paid for an mmorpg's box, the sub price, and expansions, you got all of the content for that game. Western studios are now trying to squeeze the sponge to unknown lengths and yes, that has a lot of us concerned.
It's not about being entitled, it's about the industry trying to make more money while giving you less. If less for more equates to something positive in your noggin, then I wish you all the best
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
Apparently you are also talking about merch which has nothing to do with the game at all (practice what you preach?), I used your logic when making those statements.
Also, how far does vanity go?
"You don't have to pay for that quest, you can just go grind mobs for that exp instead"
"You don't have to buy that potion, you can just wait for your health to regenerate"
Those don't effect what you are able to do in the game and how far you are able to go.
Anything can be turned into vanity. "Learn how to argue" ROFL you just made yourself look silly there.
Yes, we're quite aware they're able to do these things, but is it right that they should? Why should they be able to charge us for something that, realistically, we've already paid for? Why are people supporting their ability to do so?
The difference is that you are paying a sub for access . You are not paying to get an item like food or clothes. The commerce is different. The sub entitles you to play the game but nowhere does it itemize what that sub gives you in terms of items in game. You are arguing that the sub entitles you to content after you bought the initial box. Then why do you pay for the expansion ? Shouldn't your initial investment include that. Or why not pay extra for updates that were not in the game when you started.
It is a slippery slope by right your initial box price and sub should not entitle you to updates and and new content.
I await the counterpoint thread
Why do people have such a big issue with people having a big issue with P2P+CS for vanity items?
It's a preference and an opinion and they are entitiled to it jsut as much as the pro Item shop let the developers do whatever they want because business is above morals and good conduct and a justification uto itself group.
I don't play console games. YOu could give an example of a vanity item you purchase on one of these for a single player gmae.
An expansion is a large product, usually involving additional areas of land, new creatures, maybe new spells or weapons, extra skills, whatever it might be. That to me is a 'product' that can be sold. A single dress for my female character is not something I should be paying money for, it should be added into the game normally or into an upcoming expansion. Imagine an expansion being itemised, where you had to pay a fee for every single thing that was added in the same way. The price would be ridiculous. So why can they charge a small amount for an expansion but justify $5 for a flowery dress?
If only cash shops would start selling gold, eliminate gold farmers, and keep the profits at home.
I can see that there's not much point in arguing with you since we obviously value time and money differently, but I'll respond anyway. You are the one focusing on the money, not me. If you had read my post you'd see that I'd be willing to pay a higher subscription fee to avoid the cash shop. If you can put a great big == between time spent at work and time spent playing a game, you must either have an incredibly awesome job, or play terrible games. I work so I can afford to enjoy my time off. Playing games is one thing I choose to spend my time off on, and probably the cheapest hobby I have.
You're absolutely right, I could spend 10 minutes working for that $5 instead of spending 10 hours playing the game to achieve the same goal, but what's the point in that? The entire reason for getting that item is that it's a time investment most people won't be willing to make for an item that is trivial to them. Spending hours on getting a unique look for my character, and showing it off is something I enjoy. Showing the world that I'm willing to spend $5 in the cash shop is not.
Everything you do in an MMO requires a time investment. That's pretty much the most basic principle of MMOs and why so many people are hooked on them for years. Being allowed to pay to avoid playing the game might make it more enjoyable for you, but I'd rather play a game that is fun enough on its own merits that spending time on it doesn't feel like a punishment.
he did, little big planet.
March on! - Lets Invade Pekopon
I don't see any advantage here. When they get to the level cap, they will both be the same. They will both get the same hours of game play (content) to get to the level cap.
Why is doing it in a month versus 6 months an advantage?
I don't see this as an advantage at all.
We both get a box of candy.
I eat one piece a day, and you eat all of yours right now.
How did you get an advantage? WE got the same amount of candy. What difference does it make that we consume it at different rates?
I don't know what a "little big planet" is.
Is it a cloak you wear, a pretty mount? Is it a new character look, are you paying for different hair color? What sort of vanity item is it, and how much does it cost?
http://www.littlebigplanet.com/
It is a platformer game on the PS3, a popular one where you can buy a ton of costume.
Like http://www.littlebigplanet.com/en-gb/feeds/littlebigplanet-add-ons.rss
March on! - Lets Invade Pekopon
Well let me list the advantages as I see them . My point of view so it is entirely arbitrary.
A) By obtaining earlier access to a dungeon and items you are able to put up items on sale at the auction house which 6 months down the road will no longer fetch that price. However I do acknowledge that in some games they might fetch more. Quirky markets conditions notwithstanding this usually applies
B)Since we were discussing vanity you can parade around in your new gear before others can because you got to the content first.
C)Exploit early exploit often
D)If indeed casuals and hard core raiders can get to the same content why are there so many threads on various game boards about casuals being left out of hard core content and how they should be entitled to it.
E)Grouping opportunities that diminish as a result of others having levelled past the content before poor Roland got to it.
F)Crafting items being sold for more as a result of Chester being able to advance his craft faster and cornering the market.
G)World events in some games require you to be a certain level or able to enter some area to do a quest which Roland misses out of as a result of his impoverished invested time state.
Just off my head right now but will add on later if I can think of other things.
Change in the business world is such a new concept. You do have point, everything was always provided before, but to what extent? Do you mean the first guild to clear X dungeon gets Y vanity item and no one else ever again gets it?
Do you mean putting that celestial steed as a .01% drop from a boss in one of the toughest raids? You seem so confident that whatever items were bought in the cash shop would be readily available in the game world. It's not about less equating to something positive for me, it's about understanding that it's in their right to sell virtual merchandise. I don't support or oppose it tbh, I don't really care. I've seen this happening for YEARS in xbox live, it never bothered me then either. I've never payed for the services, and that's the whole point - YOU DON'T HAVE TO BUY THE VANITY ITEMS.
"
Apparently you are also talking about merch which has nothing to do with the game at all (practice what you preach?), I used your logic when making those statements.
Also, how far does vanity go?
"You don't have to pay for that quest, you can just go grind mobs for that exp instead"
"You don't have to buy that potion, you can just wait for your health to regenerate"
Those don't effect what you are able to do in the game and how far you are able to go.
Anything can be turned into vanity. "Learn how to argue" ROFL you just made yourself look silly there.
I'm going to go ahead and assume you're still in grade school. I can't believe that actually clicked in your head.
"Yes, we're quite aware they're able to do these things, but is it right that they should? Why should they be able to charge us for something that, realistically, we've already paid for? Why are people supporting their ability to do so?"
Getting tired of saying it, but WHERE does it say you've already paid for everything?
"It is a slippery slope by right your initial box price and sub should not entitle you to updates and and new content."
This is exactly it. I'm not supporting cash shops, I'm simply trying to put things into perspective. It is a slippery sloap. Once you start offering too much in the cash shop, then people will really start to feel undone. I don't think the practice is out of this world, if done within limits.
"An expansion is a large product, usually involving additional areas of land, new creatures, maybe new spells or weapons, extra skills, whatever it might be. That to me is a 'product' that can be sold. A single dress for my female character is not something I should be paying money for, it should be added into the game normally or into an upcoming expansion. Imagine an expansion being itemised, where you had to pay a fee for every single thing that was added in the same way. The price would be ridiculous. So why can they charge a small amount for an expansion but justify $5 for a flowery dress?"
Why does it always have to resort to the sky is falling / the end of the world extreme?
"
I can see that there's not much point in arguing with you since we obviously value time and money differently, but I'll respond anyway. You are the one focusing on the money, not me. If you had read my post you'd see that I'd be willing to pay a higher subscription fee to avoid the cash shop. If you can put a great big == between time spent at work and time spent playing a game, you must either have an incredibly awesome job, or play terrible games. I work so I can afford to enjoy my time off. Playing games is one thing I choose to spend my time off on, and probably the cheapest hobby I have.
You're absolutely right, I could spend 10 minutes working for that $5 instead of spending 10 hours playing the game to achieve the same goal, but what's the point in that? The entire reason for getting that item is that it's a time investment most people won't be willing to make for an item that is trivial to them. Spending hours on getting a unique look for my character, and showing it off is something I enjoy. Showing the world that I'm willing to spend $5 in the cash shop is not.
Everything you do in an MMO requires a time investment. That's pretty much the most basic principle of MMOs and why so many people are hooked on them for years. Being allowed to pay to avoid playing the game might make it more enjoyable for you, but I'd rather play a game that is fun enough on its own merits that spending time on it doesn't feel like a punishment."
You're assuming that the item will be placed somewhere accessible by you. What if you need a raid of 100 players to get this item? What if only one drops per week, at a .01% drop rate, and never more than one per server, per week. Would you still be happy it was available in-game for free? Would this make you quit like having to pay 5 bux for something would?
I guess we are more different than just time and money value. I look at vanity items as something fun for me, personally. I don't see it as something that I need to show off to other people for acknowledgement of my achievements. Vain people spend more many than anyone else being just that, vain. Yet, you guys are surprised when you have to pay for vanity items in a game?
Yes your correct. The comparison of ingame gear to T shirts is spot on. You get to be the cool one.
WOW isnt great because it has 12 million players. WOW has 12 million players because its great.