Because it's only a flick of a switch to start offering items that offer more than just a cosmetic advantage.
And if the target audience likes that, it's a good thing. If they don't like it, they will leave.
Or are you suggesting that MMO gamers are just really stupid, and they will not only play a game they don't like, but will actually pay extra to do so? Is that any way to talk about your fellow gamers, uohaloran?
Problem is, it's become an industry standard. So players who don't like it are stuck with it anyways or have to forget about MMOs all together. Or play one that they don't have any interest in at all, I guess.
I have never had an issue with P2P mmorpg charging extra for vanity item but people here seem to go crazy when it happens.
I always hear the argument if I pay $15 a month I want 100% of the game...which I think is a little silly...what is wrong if someone is willing to pay a little extra for a few pixels that will not affect your game play in any way at all.
This is because it is NEVER just about vanity items,there is always more to it.YES you SHOULD receive the whole game,because that cash shop WILL affect YOUR game play.This is one of the sneakiest ploys a dev can pull off,even if it starts out vanity,once you have invested a lot of time,they will sneak in other items,they like to hook you in first.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Like many have said, if I am paying a monthly fee to play a game I expect to have access to 100% of the content of said game. I don't care if it's just cometic, if I've already paid good money to play the game I want full access to everything including items that are just fluff.
It's a matter of principle to me, It would be like if I pimped out my girlfriend charging money per "session" but then came out and told you when you were just getting into it foreplay costs extra because in the end foreplay doesn't need to happen for sex to take place. It may add to the experience but all you really need is the hole to fuck.
Well, the "against it" crowd has made all the good arguments and I agree with those.
1) Vanity items do matter, as proven by player's desire to have them.
2) Can and almost certainly will lead to suits adding sales of items that matter mechanically in the game.
3) Overpriced rippoffs
4) Boosts the profit structure, boosting stock values, boosting suit's stock options, meaning it's done for greed over good game design.
5) Devalues in-game play, especially in achieving said vanity items.
6) Matters to some of the players, therefore the idea of cash shops is meaningful whether some of the other players don't care or not.
There is one more issue that I haven't seen mentioned. Cash shops offer RMT type players another venue to buy for real cash and then sell in-game for game money. Some use this to boost their in-game success (which isn't earned through game play), and others use this to sell the cash shop items for more than "street value" and turn around and sell the "gold" for more than they originally paid for the item. This has the secondary effect of inflating prices in game, making those with less gold less competitive inside the game. And this has a tertiary effect that forces players to do likewise even if they don't like it, if they want to be competitive in the game's economic perspective, and what that can buy for in-game power.
very nice sum up hehe. also Id want to know why in the world would ppl defend it?
Like many have said, if I am paying a monthly fee to play a game I expect to have access to 100% of the content of said game. I don't care if it's just cometic, if I've already paid good money to play the game I want full access to everything including items that are just fluff.
It's a matter of principle to me, It would be like if I pimped out my girlfriend charging money per "session" but then came out and told you when you were just getting into it foreplay costs extra because in the end foreplay doesn't need to happen for sex to take place. It may add to the experience but all you really need is the hole to fuck.
does your girlfriend charge you money for ..... ? (Sorry, I couldn't resist to ask)
Now being serious, imho is a matter of perspective. The main issue is what the $15 is paying for. Are really CS items a separate set from the game development? Are CS items promote the non-CS content to be worse that it should be? I think the answer to that lays actually on the business people at the companies, for us is mainly our perception. I am not going to say to any of the sides that they are right or not, in the end it is matter of preference and the actual quality of the game played. I am pretty sure that if the game is awesome most people would not be too worried about fluffy items of extra cash, but if the game is not so good, they will feel cheated and partially blame their disconfort to the CS(rightly in some occasions).
Well, the "against it" crowd has made all the good arguments and I agree with those.
1) Vanity items do matter, as proven by player's desire to have them.
2) Can and almost certainly will lead to suits adding sales of items that matter mechanically in the game.
3) Overpriced rippoffs
4) Boosts the profit structure, boosting stock values, boosting suit's stock options, meaning it's done for greed over good game design.
5) Devalues in-game play, especially in achieving said vanity items.
6) Matters to some of the players, therefore the idea of cash shops is meaningful whether some of the other players don't care or not.
There is one more issue that I haven't seen mentioned. Cash shops offer RMT type players another venue to buy for real cash and then sell in-game for game money. Some use this to boost their in-game success (which isn't earned through game play), and others use this to sell the cash shop items for more than "street value" and turn around and sell the "gold" for more than they originally paid for the item. This has the secondary effect of inflating prices in game, making those with less gold less competitive inside the game. And this has a tertiary effect that forces players to do likewise even if they don't like it, if they want to be competitive in the game's economic perspective, and what that can buy for in-game power.
very nice sum up hehe. also Id want to know why in the world would ppl defend it?
Yeah, I know. But I didn't want to go there because, obviously, reasons vary and I couldn't lump all the "for" people into that category.
People will whine & bitch about it, and yet they still play the game.
People can be such hippocrates.
quite a few of those who do complain however do move on to other games that don't offer those types of services, so while its no doubt true that some do just complain, and do little else, their far less likely to stay with the game for any length of time anyway, personally any game that was subscription based, that also introduced micro transactions to supplement the gameplay for whatever reason i would not be a party to. you have to draw the line somewhere, if you don't then that kind of thing will only get worse imo.
Very true. With the coming of the cash shops to P2P my choices of what I will play have become smaller. Not even a quality MMO with a cash shop will be considered. I have been watching RIft and SWTOR but after the DA DLC fiasco im convinced SWTOR will contain an item shop. That leaves Rift and if an item shop in included then I will continue playing single player games.
DA:Origins annoyed the hell out of me, you buy a game it should be complete, instead they left bits out of it and then tried to sell them to you later on, its a single player game, great graphics though, but how many times exactly do you have to pay for it before its complete ? hopefully it won't be repeated in TOR, but not holding my breath on that one, seems like the reasons not to buy it are kind of stacking up.
Because it's only a flick of a switch to start offering items that offer more than just a cosmetic advantage.
And if the target audience likes that, it's a good thing. If they don't like it, they will leave.
Or are you suggesting that MMO gamers are just really stupid, and they will not only play a game they don't like, but will actually pay extra to do so? Is that any way to talk about your fellow gamers, uohaloran?
Problem is, it's become an industry standard. So players who don't like it are stuck with it anyways or have to forget about MMOs all together. Or play one that they don't have any interest in at all, I guess.
And if that playerbase you speak of is any significant amount there will always be someone making a product/service for them. If their numbers are too small to be worth the time or effort, then you are correct, they will have to forget about MMOs altogether.
"Or play one that they don't have any interest in at all, I guess."
That would be the flagellates from EQ who ran out of self-abusive tasks and now are just left with spending their leisure time doing things they don't like as a substitute form of masochism. There was no help for that crowd any, so no sense in trying to save them from themselves now.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I have never had an issue with P2P mmorpg charging extra for vanity item but people here seem to go crazy when it happens.
I always hear the argument if I pay $15 a month I want 100% of the game...which I think is a little silly...what is wrong if someone is willing to pay a little extra for a few pixels that will not affect your game play in any way at all.
I don't like giving money to a game and then the developers develop something in the game with that money that I will never have access too.
It doesn't bother me much though, it really points out who is an RMT player and who isn't.
I have never had an issue with P2P mmorpg charging extra for vanity item but people here seem to go crazy when it happens.
I always hear the argument if I pay $15 a month I want 100% of the game...which I think is a little silly...what is wrong if someone is willing to pay a little extra for a few pixels that will not affect your game play in any way at all.
I don't think it's a silly argument. I think it's a very valid point, players paid the 15$ a month to have access to all the game and it's content, (and also buy expansions). Come the cash shop which introduces items that they cannot get unless they pay, and those items are about half the price of an expansion, which is ridiculous (WoW mount at 20-25$ anyone?).
The players have been supporting the company by buying each of their expansions, paying monthly subs, etc and then they are faced with items that they cannot acquire in-game.
It's really a legitimate complain. Cash Shop should stay in F2P games or Hybrid games such as DDO (and soon-to-be LOTRO). Being that you play entirely for free on those games, having a Cash Shop may still deny content in certain games, but at least these players haven't paid a buck in the first place to keep the server going. Not to say that all F2P denies content though, most games do not actually, but to take DDO and LOTRO as an exemple, you will need to buy content pack to advance further in the game, which I think is completly fine. On the other hand you may choose to simply pay a monthly sub and not worry about having to buy content packs as it gives you full access to the game, and even gives you Turbine Points per month that you can use in the cash shop.
I have never had an issue with P2P mmorpg charging extra for vanity item but people here seem to go crazy when it happens.
I always hear the argument if I pay $15 a month I want 100% of the game...which I think is a little silly...what is wrong if someone is willing to pay a little extra for a few pixels that will not affect your game play in any way at all.
I don't think it's a silly argument. I think it's a very valid point, players paid the 15$ a month to have access to all the game and it's content, (and also buy expansions). Come the cash shop which introduces items that they cannot get unless they pay, and those items are about half the price of an expansion, which is ridiculous (WoW mount at 20-25$ anyone?).
The players have been supporting the company by buying each of their expansions, paying monthly subs, etc and then they are faced with items that they cannot acquire in-game.
It's really a legitimate complain. Cash Shop should stay in F2P games or Hybrid games such as DDO (and soon-to-be LOTRO). Being that you play entirely for free on those games, having a Cash Shop may still deny content in certain games, but at least these players haven't paid a buck in the first place to keep the server going. Not to say that all F2P denies content though, most games do not actually, but to take DDO and LOTRO as an exemple, you will need to buy content pack to advance further in the game, which I think is completly fine. On the other hand you may choose to simply pay a monthly sub and not worry about having to buy content packs as it gives you full access to the game, and even gives you Turbine Points per month that you can use in the cash shop.
This is a common misconception usually brought forth by younger consumers. They feel like their 15 bucks (because they don't have much to begin with) entitles them to the world. I for one would like to see where it says your subscription entitles you to everything the game has to offer. If this were the case, they would give all merchandise and such to you for free as well.
Do you expect to get free WoW T-Shirts, mugs, action figures, trading cards, WoW-Headset, WoW-mouse etc etc, all for monthly $15? Absolutely not, but because it's an in-game item you feel like you're entitled to it?
I have never had an issue with P2P mmorpg charging extra for vanity item but people here seem to go crazy when it happens.
I always hear the argument if I pay $15 a month I want 100% of the game...which I think is a little silly...what is wrong if someone is willing to pay a little extra for a few pixels that will not affect your game play in any way at all.
I don't think it's a silly argument. I think it's a very valid point, players paid the 15$ a month to have access to all the game and it's content, (and also buy expansions). Come the cash shop which introduces items that they cannot get unless they pay, and those items are about half the price of an expansion, which is ridiculous (WoW mount at 20-25$ anyone?).
The players have been supporting the company by buying each of their expansions, paying monthly subs, etc and then they are faced with items that they cannot acquire in-game.
It's really a legitimate complain. Cash Shop should stay in F2P games or Hybrid games such as DDO (and soon-to-be LOTRO). Being that you play entirely for free on those games, having a Cash Shop may still deny content in certain games, but at least these players haven't paid a buck in the first place to keep the server going. Not to say that all F2P denies content though, most games do not actually, but to take DDO and LOTRO as an exemple, you will need to buy content pack to advance further in the game, which I think is completly fine. On the other hand you may choose to simply pay a monthly sub and not worry about having to buy content packs as it gives you full access to the game, and even gives you Turbine Points per month that you can use in the cash shop.
This is a common misconception usually brought forth by younger consumers. They feel like their 15 bucks (because they don't have much to begin with) entitles them to the world. I for one would like to see where it says your subscription entitles you to everything the game has to offer. If this were the case, they would give all merchandise and such to you for free as well.
Do you expect to get free WoW T-Shirts, mugs, action figures, trading cards, WoW-Headset, WoW-mouse etc etc, all for monthly $15? Absolutely not, but because it's an in-game item you feel like you're entitled to it?
Again, a horrible misconception.
That is a horrible misconception trying to argue against said misconception.
This is about vanity items 'in-game' not merch. I guess by your logic we should let companies walk all over us and our wallets on top of a monthly fee...
Want to have access to a quest... that'll be $1 a quest.
You can have this gear...oh you want to use it? There is a fee for that
You need a potion huh? That will be $2 a stack.
What those aren't vanity you say? ask yourself that as well when you threw merch into the mix.
"We only develop the best looking mounts and armor for purchase, but it's just vanity, the stick figure mounts and armor do exactly the same thing"
Seems more like shady business rather than business
This is a common misconception usually brought forth by younger consumers. They feel like their 15 bucks (because they don't have much to begin with) entitles them to the world. I for one would like to see where it says your subscription entitles you to everything the game has to offer. If this were the case, they would give all merchandise and such to you for free as well.
Do you expect to get free WoW T-Shirts, mugs, action figures, trading cards, WoW-Headset, WoW-mouse etc etc, all for monthly $15? Absolutely not, but because it's an in-game item you feel like you're entitled to it?
Again, a horrible misconception.
That comparison makes no sense whatsoever. I agree that $15 isn't some magic amount that should be the standard consumers should pay for an MMO subscription. I don't care if it's $10, $15, $20, $30 or $50 per month. The point isn't the price, but what is, and isn't included in the service you pay for. I want to pay a fee, and get access to a game world where time is the only investment I make.
If I meet someone in game who wears a cool costume, getting one for myself becomes a goal for me. I'll ask them how they got it, and start working on whatever quest, mob drop provides the outfit. If the answer is "I bought it for $5 in the cash shop", I'll likely just quit. I'd rather spend 10 hours playing the game to achieve something, than transfer the money for 10 minutes of real work from my bank account. It makes no sense from an economists point of view, but I really don't think you can put a price on virtual achievements, and a cash shop removes those from the game.
So, anyway, if an MMO is good enough to justify a higher monthly fee, fine, increase the fee, but removing the personal value of virtual achievements and killing immersion by introducing a cash shop is a game killer for me. It doesn't matter if I can afford the items in the cash shop or not. Just having it, deflates the value of the rest of the game for me to the point where I'm no longer willing to play it.
I don't think it's a silly argument. I think it's a very valid point, players paid the 15$ a month to have access to all the game and it's content, (and also buy expansions). Come the cash shop which introduces items that they cannot get unless they pay, and those items are about half the price of an expansion, which is ridiculous (WoW mount at 20-25$ anyone?).
The players have been supporting the company by buying each of their expansions, paying monthly subs, etc and then they are faced with items that they cannot acquire in-game.
It's really a legitimate complain. Cash Shop should stay in F2P games or Hybrid games such as DDO (and soon-to-be LOTRO). Being that you play entirely for free on those games, having a Cash Shop may still deny content in certain games, but at least these players haven't paid a buck in the first place to keep the server going. Not to say that all F2P denies content though, most games do not actually, but to take DDO and LOTRO as an exemple, you will need to buy content pack to advance further in the game, which I think is completly fine. On the other hand you may choose to simply pay a monthly sub and not worry about having to buy content packs as it gives you full access to the game, and even gives you Turbine Points per month that you can use in the cash shop.
This is a common misconception usually brought forth by younger consumers. They feel like their 15 bucks (because they don't have much to begin with) entitles them to the world. I for one would like to see where it says your subscription entitles you to everything the game has to offer. If this were the case, they would give all merchandise and such to you for free as well.
Do you expect to get free WoW T-Shirts, mugs, action figures, trading cards, WoW-Headset, WoW-mouse etc etc, all for monthly $15? Absolutely not, but because it's an in-game item you feel like you're entitled to it?
Again, a horrible misconception.
This kind of attitude is the single biggest threat that our beloved genre is currently facing. When people simply comply without using any logic, what possible good can we honestly expect. Many modern day studios are hoping that people with this line of thought are not as rare people like me would like them to be.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
I have never had an issue with P2P mmorpg charging extra for vanity item but people here seem to go crazy when it happens.
I always hear the argument if I pay $15 a month I want 100% of the game...which I think is a little silly...what is wrong if someone is willing to pay a little extra for a few pixels that will not affect your game play in any way at all.
I don't think it's a silly argument. I think it's a very valid point, players paid the 15$ a month to have access to all the game and it's content, (and also buy expansions). Come the cash shop which introduces items that they cannot get unless they pay, and those items are about half the price of an expansion, which is ridiculous (WoW mount at 20-25$ anyone?).
The players have been supporting the company by buying each of their expansions, paying monthly subs, etc and then they are faced with items that they cannot acquire in-game.
It's really a legitimate complain. Cash Shop should stay in F2P games or Hybrid games such as DDO (and soon-to-be LOTRO). Being that you play entirely for free on those games, having a Cash Shop may still deny content in certain games, but at least these players haven't paid a buck in the first place to keep the server going. Not to say that all F2P denies content though, most games do not actually, but to take DDO and LOTRO as an exemple, you will need to buy content pack to advance further in the game, which I think is completly fine. On the other hand you may choose to simply pay a monthly sub and not worry about having to buy content packs as it gives you full access to the game, and even gives you Turbine Points per month that you can use in the cash shop.
This is a common misconception usually brought forth by younger consumers. They feel like their 15 bucks (because they don't have much to begin with) entitles them to the world. I for one would like to see where it says your subscription entitles you to everything the game has to offer. If this were the case, they would give all merchandise and such to you for free as well.
Do you expect to get free WoW T-Shirts, mugs, action figures, trading cards, WoW-Headset, WoW-mouse etc etc, all for monthly $15? Absolutely not, but because it's an in-game item you feel like you're entitled to it?
Again, a horrible misconception.
That is a horrible misconception trying to argue against said misconception.
This is about vanity items 'in-game' not merch. I guess by your logic we should let companies walk all over us and our wallets on top of a monthly fee...
Want to have access to a quest... that'll be $1 a quest.
You can have this gear...oh you want to use it? There is a fee for that
You need a potion huh? That will be $2 a stack.
What those aren't vanity you say? ask yourself that as well when you threw merch into the mix.
"We only develop the best looking mounts and armor for purchase, but it's just vanity, the stick figure mounts and armor do exactly the same thing"
Seems more like shady business rather than business
I guess this is another misconception, people assume that vanity items ((yes I still count a pretty mount as a vanity item)) will automatically lead to a micro transaction game which it most likely won’t.
In this day and age where we pay for everything. I recall they used to give year end calenders at the end of the year .It was a great tradition the places we would go to the grocery shops all would give their loyal customers these calenders as a token of appreciation for our loyalty. The the supermarkets came in and loyalty got out fashioned and discount shopping was in but still some big supermarkets still used to hand out those calenders. I use this example because I grew up seeing changes come in our world being over 50 years old I can actually mark things in my mental timeline as pivotal points where things have changed.
It is the same with games .Vanity items are being sold for real money because it is a business and it is something they know you will pay extra for. As long as they remain as vanity items I have no problem with it. I object when it is something like perfume is it that thing that was in Allods that severely affected gameplay. Vanity items are for looks and honestly no sweat off my back or my $15 sub considering the number of hours we play these games $15 is nothing. They used to charge you by the time played. Now that was a problem but selling vanity items is nothing compared to charging you for time played instead of a flat out sub.
I have never had an issue with P2P mmorpg charging extra for vanity item but people here seem to go crazy when it happens.
I always hear the argument if I pay $15 a month I want 100% of the game...which I think is a little silly...what is wrong if someone is willing to pay a little extra for a few pixels that will not affect your game play in any way at all.
I don't think it's a silly argument. I think it's a very valid point, players paid the 15$ a month to have access to all the game and it's content, (and also buy expansions). Come the cash shop which introduces items that they cannot get unless they pay, and those items are about half the price of an expansion, which is ridiculous (WoW mount at 20-25$ anyone?).
The players have been supporting the company by buying each of their expansions, paying monthly subs, etc and then they are faced with items that they cannot acquire in-game.
It's really a legitimate complain. Cash Shop should stay in F2P games or Hybrid games such as DDO (and soon-to-be LOTRO). Being that you play entirely for free on those games, having a Cash Shop may still deny content in certain games, but at least these players haven't paid a buck in the first place to keep the server going. Not to say that all F2P denies content though, most games do not actually, but to take DDO and LOTRO as an exemple, you will need to buy content pack to advance further in the game, which I think is completly fine. On the other hand you may choose to simply pay a monthly sub and not worry about having to buy content packs as it gives you full access to the game, and even gives you Turbine Points per month that you can use in the cash shop.
This is a common misconception usually brought forth by younger consumers. They feel like their 15 bucks (because they don't have much to begin with) entitles them to the world. I for one would like to see where it says your subscription entitles you to everything the game has to offer. If this were the case, they would give all merchandise and such to you for free as well.
Do you expect to get free WoW T-Shirts, mugs, action figures, trading cards, WoW-Headset, WoW-mouse etc etc, all for monthly $15? Absolutely not, but because it's an in-game item you feel like you're entitled to it?
Again, a horrible misconception.
That is a horrible misconception trying to argue against said misconception.
This is about vanity items 'in-game' not merch. I guess by your logic we should let companies walk all over us and our wallets on top of a monthly fee...
Want to have access to a quest... that'll be $1 a quest.
You can have this gear...oh you want to use it? There is a fee for that
You need a potion huh? That will be $2 a stack.
What those aren't vanity you say? ask yourself that as well when you threw merch into the mix.
"We only develop the best looking mounts and armor for purchase, but it's just vanity, the stick figure mounts and armor do exactly the same thing"
Seems more like shady business rather than business
I guess this is another misconception, people assume that vanity items ((yes I still count a pretty mount as a vanity item)) will automatically lead to a micro transaction game which it most likely won’t.
It is vanity, I agree. I also said it was very shady business on the companies end. "Lets make everything we develop look like crap in comparison to our purchased items"
After all.. it is just looks... your character will look like a skittle clown with horribly designed gear, but hey it's just looks. Nobody wants their characters to look bad in comparison to others, that is part of the reason that high end gear looks cool in MMOs compared to low end.
I really don't have a problem with P2P and CS as long as that was the system when I bought the game and they just didn't spring it on me years later when I have invested so much time into it. I'm either forced to pay more in order to make my character look half way decent, or look completely horrid and start to unenjoy the game. Meh this is just my opinion of course, I like my characters look cool lol.
Because the point of a p2p game is that everyone competes on an even playing fields. Add cash shop into that and the field is no longer even. Even for fluff items. A lot of people are collectors. Now they need to spend cash out of their pocket to keep up with other collectors. Are you trying to collect every mount in WoW? I know some people who are. They can't do it on an even field now. They have to use the cash shop.
I guess this is another misconception, people assume that vanity items ((yes I still count a pretty mount as a vanity item)) will automatically lead to a micro transaction game which it most likely won’t.
Once you can buy vanity items from a cash shop it is already a micro transactions game. I don't really see the difference in buying a vanity item or anything else typically sold in a cash shop. You are spending out of game assets (money earned outside the game) instead of in game assets (time, knowledge of game mechanics, and social connections) to get something you want in game. Whatever you buy has no real value, so it's irrelevant if your reason for getting it is vanity, convenience or virtual power.
Of course you can easily make the connection that time = money whether it's spent in game, or at work, but you are (hopefully) playing the game to have fun, and have already paid for the time. Why would you pay more to advance your character without actually playing the game. (I consider gaining so called vanity items character advancement, since it's obviously a goal for many players, or they wouldn't exist at all).
This is a common misconception usually brought forth by younger consumers. They feel like their 15 bucks (because they don't have much to begin with) entitles them to the world. I for one would like to see where it says your subscription entitles you to everything the game has to offer. If this were the case, they would give all merchandise and such to you for free as well.
Do you expect to get free WoW T-Shirts, mugs, action figures, trading cards, WoW-Headset, WoW-mouse etc etc, all for monthly $15? Absolutely not, but because it's an in-game item you feel like you're entitled to it?
Again, a horrible misconception.
What the..? Are you for real? Look at it this way: Let's say you want to buy one of those merchandise WoW t-shirts. They send one out and it's just a blank t-shirt, so you contact them and they say, "You want WoW on the front, you need to pay an extra $5.". Or a mug that you are sent that doesn't have a bottom so the drinks go straight through. To have a bottom costs an extra $5.
We're talking about buying the 'whole' rather than a pieced together item. When you buy a game you expect to have the full experience, when you buy a t-shirt you expect to get what you paid for, when you buy a headset you expect to have a connecting lead with it. To take out parts and then charge extra for them is frankly criminal.
How would you feel if you went out and bought a game like Modern Warfare 2, but you could only use a pistol? If you wanted extra guns you would have to pay $5 each type. It's a stupid idea, so why are we allowing it to happen in MMO's?
I have never had an issue with P2P mmorpg charging extra for vanity item but people here seem to go crazy when it happens.
I always hear the argument if I pay $15 a month I want 100% of the game...which I think is a little silly...what is wrong if someone is willing to pay a little extra for a few pixels that will not affect your game play in any way at all.
I don't think it's a silly argument. I think it's a very valid point, players paid the 15$ a month to have access to all the game and it's content, (and also buy expansions). Come the cash shop which introduces items that they cannot get unless they pay, and those items are about half the price of an expansion, which is ridiculous (WoW mount at 20-25$ anyone?).
The players have been supporting the company by buying each of their expansions, paying monthly subs, etc and then they are faced with items that they cannot acquire in-game.
It's really a legitimate complain. Cash Shop should stay in F2P games or Hybrid games such as DDO (and soon-to-be LOTRO). Being that you play entirely for free on those games, having a Cash Shop may still deny content in certain games, but at least these players haven't paid a buck in the first place to keep the server going. Not to say that all F2P denies content though, most games do not actually, but to take DDO and LOTRO as an exemple, you will need to buy content pack to advance further in the game, which I think is completly fine. On the other hand you may choose to simply pay a monthly sub and not worry about having to buy content packs as it gives you full access to the game, and even gives you Turbine Points per month that you can use in the cash shop.
This is a common misconception usually brought forth by younger consumers. They feel like their 15 bucks (because they don't have much to begin with) entitles them to the world. I for one would like to see where it says your subscription entitles you to everything the game has to offer. If this were the case, they would give all merchandise and such to you for free as well.
Do you expect to get free WoW T-Shirts, mugs, action figures, trading cards, WoW-Headset, WoW-mouse etc etc, all for monthly $15? Absolutely not, but because it's an in-game item you feel like you're entitled to it?
Again, a horrible misconception.
That is a horrible misconception trying to argue against said misconception.
This is about vanity items 'in-game' not merch. I guess by your logic we should let companies walk all over us and our wallets on top of a monthly fee...
Want to have access to a quest... that'll be $1 a quest.
You can have this gear...oh you want to use it? There is a fee for that
You need a potion huh? That will be $2 a stack.
What those aren't vanity you say? ask yourself that as well when you threw merch into the mix.
"We only develop the best looking mounts and armor for purchase, but it's just vanity, the stick figure mounts and armor do exactly the same thing"
Seems more like shady business rather than business
Ok because quests and potions are vanity items? Learn how to argue, you just make yourself look silly when you use things that don't even relate in your argument. Vanity items have ZERO impact on actual gameplay. I'm talking about vanity pets or a funny pancho.
"That comparison makes no sense whatsoever. I agree that $15 isn't some magic amount that should be the standard consumers should pay for an MMO subscription. I don't care if it's $10, $15, $20, $30 or $50 per month. The point isn't the price, but what is, and isn't included in the service you pay for. I want to pay a fee, and get access to a game world where time is the only investment I make.
If I meet someone in game who wears a cool costume, getting one for myself becomes a goal for me. I'll ask them how they got it, and start working on whatever quest, mob drop provides the outfit. If the answer is "I bought it for $5 in the cash shop", I'll likely just quit. I'd rather spend 10 hours playing the game to achieve something, than transfer the money for 10 minutes of real work from my bank account. It makes no sense from an economists point of view, but I really don't think you can put a price on virtual achievements, and a cash shop removes those from the game.
So, anyway, if an MMO is good enough to justify a higher monthly fee, fine, increase the fee, but removing the personal value of virtual achievements and killing immersion by introducing a cash shop is a game killer for me. It doesn't matter if I can afford the items in the cash shop or not. Just having it, deflates the value of the rest of the game for me to the point where I'm no longer willing to play it."
Thank you for proving my point. You'll spend 10 hours doing something that costs you 5 dollars in real life. Anyone with a job will easily make 5 dollars in 30 minutes. However, you don't value your time at $5. If you are willing to spend 10 hours doing something that would take 5 dollars then you value your hour at $0.50.
I don't know about you, but I would MUCH rather spend $5 on something that has ABSOLUTELY NO EFFECT on gameplay, than spend 10 hours of my real life "working" on it. Either you don't have a job, or you're a real tight arse, and nobody likes a tight ---. Is the entire game being offered for real life money? I doubt it, usually just vanity 'fun' items.
You're going to try to cite this economist bs when you don't even factor in opportunity costs? It's virtual merchandise, not virtual achievements. Virtual merchandise will be treated the exact same way as real merchandise. Again, back to my example.
"This kind of attitude is the single biggest threat that our beloved genre is currently facing. When people simply comply without using any logic, what possible good can we honestly expect. Many modern day studios are hoping that people with this line of thought are not as rare people like me would like them to be."
The kind of attitude that understands this a business industry? The kind that understands the concept of virtual merchandise? I'm not supporting paying for items that affect gameplay. I'm not even supporting vanity items being for sale, I couldn't care less. I simply understand it. Love when people with a flimsy grasp of the English language try to take the 'higher' road.
"What the..? Are you for real? Look at it this way: Let's say you want to buy one of those merchandise WoW t-shirts. They send one out and it's just a blank t-shirt, so you contact them and they say, "You want WoW on the front, you need to pay an extra $5.". Or a mug that you are sent that doesn't have a bottom so the drinks go straight through. To have a bottom costs an extra $5.
We're talking about buying the 'whole' rather than a pieced together item. When you buy a game you expect to have the full experience, when you buy a t-shirt you expect to get what you paid for, when you buy a headset you expect to have a connecting lead with it. To take out parts and then charge extra for them is frankly criminal.
How would you feel if you went out and bought a game like Modern Warfare 2, but you could only use a pistol? If you wanted extra guns you would have to pay $5 each type. It's a stupid idea, so why are we allowing it to happen in MMO's?"
Are you that dense? Have you ever bought a sports jersey? They charge you by the letter in the back. They charge less if you just want the logo in the front with no numbers or names in the back. Wow you can't really be this dense. Your comparison is wrong on so many levels. When you pay for your vanity item, are you only getting a portion of it? No.
The MW2 comparison doesn't even work. We're talking about VANITY ITEMS. JUST FOR LOOKS. Guns affect gameplay. Man some of you people just simply can't argue objectively. Microsoft sells LOTS of vanity items to suit up your silly little virtual guy. They sell these using microsoft points. They also regularly provide costume packs, sound packs and such for their games. Do you want portugese annoucement for your Fifa 10? That's going to cost you. They don't offer these for free because you payed for the original game. You guys just make yourselves look so bad.
Let me rephrase since some people clearly lack reading comprehension. Vanity items and the like are all considered virtual merchandise. They are not virtual achievements (although they can be). Just like you're not entitled to clothing, toys, and other merchandise with your monthly subscription, you won't be entitled to in-game virtual merchandise. Thank you for your time.
Just playing devil's advocate here but we all pay $15 to access the game but Roland plays 10 hours a week while Chester plays 10 hours a day. Should we restrict Chester's access to even things out .Give everyone an even playfield so to speak ? This way Chester will not gain an unfair advantage over Roland by playing so much more and thereby enabling him to get more money and items and thereby making him more overpowered than Roland.
The fact that Chester is using the access way more than Roland should not Chester pay more ? All things being equal and all or is this an Orwellian theme of equality ?
I have never had an issue with P2P mmorpg charging extra for vanity item but people here seem to go crazy when it happens.
I always hear the argument if I pay $15 a month I want 100% of the game...which I think is a little silly...what is wrong if someone is willing to pay a little extra for a few pixels that will not affect your game play in any way at all.
I don't think it's a silly argument. I think it's a very valid point, players paid the 15$ a month to have access to all the game and it's content, (and also buy expansions). Come the cash shop which introduces items that they cannot get unless they pay, and those items are about half the price of an expansion, which is ridiculous (WoW mount at 20-25$ anyone?).
The players have been supporting the company by buying each of their expansions, paying monthly subs, etc and then they are faced with items that they cannot acquire in-game.
It's really a legitimate complain. Cash Shop should stay in F2P games or Hybrid games such as DDO (and soon-to-be LOTRO). Being that you play entirely for free on those games, having a Cash Shop may still deny content in certain games, but at least these players haven't paid a buck in the first place to keep the server going. Not to say that all F2P denies content though, most games do not actually, but to take DDO and LOTRO as an exemple, you will need to buy content pack to advance further in the game, which I think is completly fine. On the other hand you may choose to simply pay a monthly sub and not worry about having to buy content packs as it gives you full access to the game, and even gives you Turbine Points per month that you can use in the cash shop.
This is a common misconception usually brought forth by younger consumers. They feel like their 15 bucks (because they don't have much to begin with) entitles them to the world. I for one would like to see where it says your subscription entitles you to everything the game has to offer. If this were the case, they would give all merchandise and such to you for free as well.
Do you expect to get free WoW T-Shirts, mugs, action figures, trading cards, WoW-Headset, WoW-mouse etc etc, all for monthly $15? Absolutely not, but because it's an in-game item you feel like you're entitled to it?
Again, a horrible misconception.
Talk about the young people being rediculous.
WOW isnt great because it has 12 million players. WOW has 12 million players because its great.
Comments
What?
Is my $15 a month not enough?
PLAYING: NOTHING!!!
PLAYED:FFXI, LotRO, AoC, WAR, DDO, Megaten, Wurm, Rohan, Mabinogi, RoM
WAITING FOR: Dust 514
Problem is, it's become an industry standard. So players who don't like it are stuck with it anyways or have to forget about MMOs all together. Or play one that they don't have any interest in at all, I guess.
Once upon a time....
This is because it is NEVER just about vanity items,there is always more to it.YES you SHOULD receive the whole game,because that cash shop WILL affect YOUR game play.This is one of the sneakiest ploys a dev can pull off,even if it starts out vanity,once you have invested a lot of time,they will sneak in other items,they like to hook you in first.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Like many have said, if I am paying a monthly fee to play a game I expect to have access to 100% of the content of said game. I don't care if it's just cometic, if I've already paid good money to play the game I want full access to everything including items that are just fluff.
It's a matter of principle to me, It would be like if I pimped out my girlfriend charging money per "session" but then came out and told you when you were just getting into it foreplay costs extra because in the end foreplay doesn't need to happen for sex to take place. It may add to the experience but all you really need is the hole to fuck.
Full Sail University - Game Design
very nice sum up hehe. also Id want to know why in the world would ppl defend it?
does your girlfriend charge you money for ..... ? (Sorry, I couldn't resist to ask)
Now being serious, imho is a matter of perspective. The main issue is what the $15 is paying for. Are really CS items a separate set from the game development? Are CS items promote the non-CS content to be worse that it should be? I think the answer to that lays actually on the business people at the companies, for us is mainly our perception. I am not going to say to any of the sides that they are right or not, in the end it is matter of preference and the actual quality of the game played. I am pretty sure that if the game is awesome most people would not be too worried about fluffy items of extra cash, but if the game is not so good, they will feel cheated and partially blame their disconfort to the CS(rightly in some occasions).
Yeah, I know. But I didn't want to go there because, obviously, reasons vary and I couldn't lump all the "for" people into that category.
Once upon a time....
I just want to say that I'm against vanity items.
Everything should be obtainable by paying the monthly fee and playing the game.
I'm also against these so called adventure packs that EQ2 used to have but that now is free.
Either make it a full blown expansion pack or make it free with the patch.
Edit: spelling
All those memories will be lost in time, like tears in the rain.
DA:Origins annoyed the hell out of me, you buy a game it should be complete, instead they left bits out of it and then tried to sell them to you later on, its a single player game, great graphics though, but how many times exactly do you have to pay for it before its complete ? hopefully it won't be repeated in TOR, but not holding my breath on that one, seems like the reasons not to buy it are kind of stacking up.
And if that playerbase you speak of is any significant amount there will always be someone making a product/service for them. If their numbers are too small to be worth the time or effort, then you are correct, they will have to forget about MMOs altogether.
"Or play one that they don't have any interest in at all, I guess."
That would be the flagellates from EQ who ran out of self-abusive tasks and now are just left with spending their leisure time doing things they don't like as a substitute form of masochism. There was no help for that crowd any, so no sense in trying to save them from themselves now.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I don't like giving money to a game and then the developers develop something in the game with that money that I will never have access too.
It doesn't bother me much though, it really points out who is an RMT player and who isn't.
I don't think it's a silly argument. I think it's a very valid point, players paid the 15$ a month to have access to all the game and it's content, (and also buy expansions). Come the cash shop which introduces items that they cannot get unless they pay, and those items are about half the price of an expansion, which is ridiculous (WoW mount at 20-25$ anyone?).
The players have been supporting the company by buying each of their expansions, paying monthly subs, etc and then they are faced with items that they cannot acquire in-game.
It's really a legitimate complain. Cash Shop should stay in F2P games or Hybrid games such as DDO (and soon-to-be LOTRO). Being that you play entirely for free on those games, having a Cash Shop may still deny content in certain games, but at least these players haven't paid a buck in the first place to keep the server going. Not to say that all F2P denies content though, most games do not actually, but to take DDO and LOTRO as an exemple, you will need to buy content pack to advance further in the game, which I think is completly fine. On the other hand you may choose to simply pay a monthly sub and not worry about having to buy content packs as it gives you full access to the game, and even gives you Turbine Points per month that you can use in the cash shop.
This is a common misconception usually brought forth by younger consumers. They feel like their 15 bucks (because they don't have much to begin with) entitles them to the world. I for one would like to see where it says your subscription entitles you to everything the game has to offer. If this were the case, they would give all merchandise and such to you for free as well.
Do you expect to get free WoW T-Shirts, mugs, action figures, trading cards, WoW-Headset, WoW-mouse etc etc, all for monthly $15? Absolutely not, but because it's an in-game item you feel like you're entitled to it?
Again, a horrible misconception.
That is a horrible misconception trying to argue against said misconception.
This is about vanity items 'in-game' not merch. I guess by your logic we should let companies walk all over us and our wallets on top of a monthly fee...
Want to have access to a quest... that'll be $1 a quest.
You can have this gear...oh you want to use it? There is a fee for that
You need a potion huh? That will be $2 a stack.
What those aren't vanity you say? ask yourself that as well when you threw merch into the mix.
"We only develop the best looking mounts and armor for purchase, but it's just vanity, the stick figure mounts and armor do exactly the same thing"
Seems more like shady business rather than business
That comparison makes no sense whatsoever. I agree that $15 isn't some magic amount that should be the standard consumers should pay for an MMO subscription. I don't care if it's $10, $15, $20, $30 or $50 per month. The point isn't the price, but what is, and isn't included in the service you pay for. I want to pay a fee, and get access to a game world where time is the only investment I make.
If I meet someone in game who wears a cool costume, getting one for myself becomes a goal for me. I'll ask them how they got it, and start working on whatever quest, mob drop provides the outfit. If the answer is "I bought it for $5 in the cash shop", I'll likely just quit. I'd rather spend 10 hours playing the game to achieve something, than transfer the money for 10 minutes of real work from my bank account. It makes no sense from an economists point of view, but I really don't think you can put a price on virtual achievements, and a cash shop removes those from the game.
So, anyway, if an MMO is good enough to justify a higher monthly fee, fine, increase the fee, but removing the personal value of virtual achievements and killing immersion by introducing a cash shop is a game killer for me. It doesn't matter if I can afford the items in the cash shop or not. Just having it, deflates the value of the rest of the game for me to the point where I'm no longer willing to play it.
This kind of attitude is the single biggest threat that our beloved genre is currently facing. When people simply comply without using any logic, what possible good can we honestly expect. Many modern day studios are hoping that people with this line of thought are not as rare people like me would like them to be.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
I guess this is another misconception, people assume that vanity items ((yes I still count a pretty mount as a vanity item)) will automatically lead to a micro transaction game which it most likely won’t.
March on! - Lets Invade Pekopon
In this day and age where we pay for everything. I recall they used to give year end calenders at the end of the year .It was a great tradition the places we would go to the grocery shops all would give their loyal customers these calenders as a token of appreciation for our loyalty. The the supermarkets came in and loyalty got out fashioned and discount shopping was in but still some big supermarkets still used to hand out those calenders. I use this example because I grew up seeing changes come in our world being over 50 years old I can actually mark things in my mental timeline as pivotal points where things have changed.
It is the same with games .Vanity items are being sold for real money because it is a business and it is something they know you will pay extra for. As long as they remain as vanity items I have no problem with it. I object when it is something like perfume is it that thing that was in Allods that severely affected gameplay. Vanity items are for looks and honestly no sweat off my back or my $15 sub considering the number of hours we play these games $15 is nothing. They used to charge you by the time played. Now that was a problem but selling vanity items is nothing compared to charging you for time played instead of a flat out sub.
It is vanity, I agree. I also said it was very shady business on the companies end. "Lets make everything we develop look like crap in comparison to our purchased items"
After all.. it is just looks... your character will look like a skittle clown with horribly designed gear, but hey it's just looks. Nobody wants their characters to look bad in comparison to others, that is part of the reason that high end gear looks cool in MMOs compared to low end.
I really don't have a problem with P2P and CS as long as that was the system when I bought the game and they just didn't spring it on me years later when I have invested so much time into it. I'm either forced to pay more in order to make my character look half way decent, or look completely horrid and start to unenjoy the game. Meh this is just my opinion of course, I like my characters look cool lol.
Because the point of a p2p game is that everyone competes on an even playing fields. Add cash shop into that and the field is no longer even. Even for fluff items. A lot of people are collectors. Now they need to spend cash out of their pocket to keep up with other collectors. Are you trying to collect every mount in WoW? I know some people who are. They can't do it on an even field now. They have to use the cash shop.
Once you can buy vanity items from a cash shop it is already a micro transactions game. I don't really see the difference in buying a vanity item or anything else typically sold in a cash shop. You are spending out of game assets (money earned outside the game) instead of in game assets (time, knowledge of game mechanics, and social connections) to get something you want in game. Whatever you buy has no real value, so it's irrelevant if your reason for getting it is vanity, convenience or virtual power.
Of course you can easily make the connection that time = money whether it's spent in game, or at work, but you are (hopefully) playing the game to have fun, and have already paid for the time. Why would you pay more to advance your character without actually playing the game. (I consider gaining so called vanity items character advancement, since it's obviously a goal for many players, or they wouldn't exist at all).
What the..? Are you for real? Look at it this way: Let's say you want to buy one of those merchandise WoW t-shirts. They send one out and it's just a blank t-shirt, so you contact them and they say, "You want WoW on the front, you need to pay an extra $5.". Or a mug that you are sent that doesn't have a bottom so the drinks go straight through. To have a bottom costs an extra $5.
We're talking about buying the 'whole' rather than a pieced together item. When you buy a game you expect to have the full experience, when you buy a t-shirt you expect to get what you paid for, when you buy a headset you expect to have a connecting lead with it. To take out parts and then charge extra for them is frankly criminal.
How would you feel if you went out and bought a game like Modern Warfare 2, but you could only use a pistol? If you wanted extra guns you would have to pay $5 each type. It's a stupid idea, so why are we allowing it to happen in MMO's?
Ok because quests and potions are vanity items? Learn how to argue, you just make yourself look silly when you use things that don't even relate in your argument. Vanity items have ZERO impact on actual gameplay. I'm talking about vanity pets or a funny pancho.
"That comparison makes no sense whatsoever. I agree that $15 isn't some magic amount that should be the standard consumers should pay for an MMO subscription. I don't care if it's $10, $15, $20, $30 or $50 per month. The point isn't the price, but what is, and isn't included in the service you pay for. I want to pay a fee, and get access to a game world where time is the only investment I make.
If I meet someone in game who wears a cool costume, getting one for myself becomes a goal for me. I'll ask them how they got it, and start working on whatever quest, mob drop provides the outfit. If the answer is "I bought it for $5 in the cash shop", I'll likely just quit. I'd rather spend 10 hours playing the game to achieve something, than transfer the money for 10 minutes of real work from my bank account. It makes no sense from an economists point of view, but I really don't think you can put a price on virtual achievements, and a cash shop removes those from the game.
So, anyway, if an MMO is good enough to justify a higher monthly fee, fine, increase the fee, but removing the personal value of virtual achievements and killing immersion by introducing a cash shop is a game killer for me. It doesn't matter if I can afford the items in the cash shop or not. Just having it, deflates the value of the rest of the game for me to the point where I'm no longer willing to play it."
Thank you for proving my point. You'll spend 10 hours doing something that costs you 5 dollars in real life. Anyone with a job will easily make 5 dollars in 30 minutes. However, you don't value your time at $5. If you are willing to spend 10 hours doing something that would take 5 dollars then you value your hour at $0.50.
I don't know about you, but I would MUCH rather spend $5 on something that has ABSOLUTELY NO EFFECT on gameplay, than spend 10 hours of my real life "working" on it. Either you don't have a job, or you're a real tight arse, and nobody likes a tight ---. Is the entire game being offered for real life money? I doubt it, usually just vanity 'fun' items.
You're going to try to cite this economist bs when you don't even factor in opportunity costs? It's virtual merchandise, not virtual achievements. Virtual merchandise will be treated the exact same way as real merchandise. Again, back to my example.
"This kind of attitude is the single biggest threat that our beloved genre is currently facing. When people simply comply without using any logic, what possible good can we honestly expect. Many modern day studios are hoping that people with this line of thought are not as rare people like me would like them to be."
The kind of attitude that understands this a business industry? The kind that understands the concept of virtual merchandise? I'm not supporting paying for items that affect gameplay. I'm not even supporting vanity items being for sale, I couldn't care less. I simply understand it. Love when people with a flimsy grasp of the English language try to take the 'higher' road.
"What the..? Are you for real? Look at it this way: Let's say you want to buy one of those merchandise WoW t-shirts. They send one out and it's just a blank t-shirt, so you contact them and they say, "You want WoW on the front, you need to pay an extra $5.". Or a mug that you are sent that doesn't have a bottom so the drinks go straight through. To have a bottom costs an extra $5.
We're talking about buying the 'whole' rather than a pieced together item. When you buy a game you expect to have the full experience, when you buy a t-shirt you expect to get what you paid for, when you buy a headset you expect to have a connecting lead with it. To take out parts and then charge extra for them is frankly criminal.
How would you feel if you went out and bought a game like Modern Warfare 2, but you could only use a pistol? If you wanted extra guns you would have to pay $5 each type. It's a stupid idea, so why are we allowing it to happen in MMO's?"
Are you that dense? Have you ever bought a sports jersey? They charge you by the letter in the back. They charge less if you just want the logo in the front with no numbers or names in the back. Wow you can't really be this dense. Your comparison is wrong on so many levels. When you pay for your vanity item, are you only getting a portion of it? No.
The MW2 comparison doesn't even work. We're talking about VANITY ITEMS. JUST FOR LOOKS. Guns affect gameplay. Man some of you people just simply can't argue objectively. Microsoft sells LOTS of vanity items to suit up your silly little virtual guy. They sell these using microsoft points. They also regularly provide costume packs, sound packs and such for their games. Do you want portugese annoucement for your Fifa 10? That's going to cost you. They don't offer these for free because you payed for the original game. You guys just make yourselves look so bad.
Let me rephrase since some people clearly lack reading comprehension. Vanity items and the like are all considered virtual merchandise. They are not virtual achievements (although they can be). Just like you're not entitled to clothing, toys, and other merchandise with your monthly subscription, you won't be entitled to in-game virtual merchandise. Thank you for your time.
Just playing devil's advocate here but we all pay $15 to access the game but Roland plays 10 hours a week while Chester plays 10 hours a day. Should we restrict Chester's access to even things out .Give everyone an even playfield so to speak ? This way Chester will not gain an unfair advantage over Roland by playing so much more and thereby enabling him to get more money and items and thereby making him more overpowered than Roland.
The fact that Chester is using the access way more than Roland should not Chester pay more ? All things being equal and all or is this an Orwellian theme of equality ?
Talk about the young people being rediculous.
WOW isnt great because it has 12 million players. WOW has 12 million players because its great.