Would you object if the entire game (including the 'ground' or 'avatar' portions) was a rail shooter? Yes or no?
Nope, it would be hilarious on a cap of good acid.
Note to children, this post does not condone illegal substances, drugs are bad m'kay.
That's a 'tab' of acid actually, kid.
Actually the post sprang to mind after reading a quote:
"A cap of good acid costs five dollars and for that you can hear the Universal Symphony with God singing solo and Holy Ghost on drums." Hunter S. Thompson.
Thanks for the tip though, kid.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
About KOTOR: devs have said literally on questions about a KOTOR 3 that SW:TOR will be a 'KOTOR 3,4,5,6,7,8,9, 10, 11 and 12', next to the statements they made of SW:TOR being huge with massive worlds to explore and it being far larger than of all their former games together.
Take it for what it's worth - I know it's the trend to be sceptical about anything devs say - but that's what they said.
Understood...And I believe they meant exactly that...But I think they also know beyond a shadow of a doubt an MMO has to offer WAY more than a console game...It just does...I think they were referring to the actual size and scope of the game, the stories, etc...But they understand that's just the beginning with an MMO...Especially an MMO with the SW license...They HAVE to know it...
This game is designed like KOTOR. There was no space combat in KOTOR other than a silly turret mini-game. As a result, it was foolish for anyone to expect anything but a minigame for the space combat in SWTOR... at least at launch.
Sometimes I wonder if I was playing a different game than a lot of you back in JTL. I thought the space portion of SWG was quite boring. It consisted of fighting NPCs in easy to win missions that felt distinctly like boring grinding after a few hours. I never once encountered any epic space battle awesomeness with other players... maybe because there were so few on the server.
I would MUCH rather Bioware stick to what they are good at than have them waste time and resources trying to appease the whiney SWG vets... That tends to be a foolish endeavor in the development of any game.
Would you object if the entire game (including the 'ground' or 'avatar' portions) was a rail shooter? Yes or no?
Yes, I would... but that is completely beside the point. People should be expecting a game like Knights of the Old Republic because obviously that is the game SWTOR is being developed like. Space combat was never part of KOTOR and so I personally never expected it to be part of SWTOR... at least not to any large degree.
You guys demanding that a full space sim be added on top of what Bioware is already doing is like demanding that they throw an entirely different game on top of the one they are already making. A classic Bioware RPG is about as different from a space sim as you can get. It's like demanding that they throw a racing game in Call of Duty because you want to be able to drive between each FPS mission... its ridiculous. And just because it was previously done IN A FAILED GAME does not mean it should be done again. In fact, I would bet most developers tend to use SWG as an example of what NOT to do in future projects... for good reason.
How is it beside the point?
People should be expecting a game like Knights of the Old Republic? A turn-based, single-player RPG without a monthly fee?
Don't get me wrong; I adored KotOR. I just don't think it's unreasonable (seven years later) to expect more from a subscription-based MMO with over a $150 million budget.
Asking for the same freedom of movement you expect from the ground game (aka: the capacity to stop and/or turn around) is hardly the same as demanding a full-fledged space simulation or Raph Koster-esque, re-skinned UO grindfest.
The comparison to Call of Duty is particularly apropos given that (unless I'm mistaken) it does include (non-rail shooter) vehicular gameplay. For that matter, I don't know if you follow the Halo series, but it's my understanding that FPS title as well will add dogfighting and non-linear space combat in its next iteration:
From my point of view, they gone and made a KOTOR like single player game with some multiplayer coop play thrown in, and with the space tossed in as an afterthought, with barely any effort to do anything mmo-ish with the space.
The space in swg, although still rather basic, was still like an mmo in space - and of course the pvp in the arena zones was quite fun and intense, when one managed to find fights.
Chances are I'll give TOR a shot, simply because it's not more stupid elves and goblins (and kotor was an amusing game), so in that respect I'd show some support by playing. We need more sci-fi mmos eh?
Yes, I would... but that is completely beside the point. People should be expecting a game like Knights of the Old Republic because obviously that is the game SWTOR is being developed like. Space combat was never part of KOTOR and so I personally never expected it to be part of SWTOR... at least not to any large degree.
You guys demanding that a full space sim be added on top of what Bioware is already doing is like demanding that they throw an entirely different game on top of the one they are already making. A classic Bioware RPG is about as different from a space sim as you can get. It's like demanding that they throw a racing game in Call of Duty because you want to be able to drive between each FPS mission... its ridiculous. And just because it was previously done IN A FAILED GAME does not mean it should be done again. In fact, I would bet most developers tend to use SWG as an example of what NOT to do in future projects... for good reason.
How is it beside the point?
People should be expecting a game like Knights of the Old Republic? A turn-based, single-player RPG without a monthly fee?
Don't get me wrong; I adored KotOR. I just don't think it's unreasonable (seven years later) to expect more from a subscription-based MMO with over a $150 million budget.
Asking for the same freedom of movement you expect from the ground game (aka: the capacity to stop and/or turn around) is hardly the same as demanding a full-fledged space simulation or Raph Koster-esque, re-skinned UO grindfest.
The comparison to Call of Duty is particularly apropos given that (unless I'm mistaken) it does include (non-rail shooter) vehicular gameplay. For that matter, I don't know if you follow the Halo series, but it's my understanding that FPS title as well will add dogfighting and non-linear space combat in its next iteration:
Yes, people should be expecting something VERY MUCH like KOTOR. Not exactly the same obviously, but it is to be expected that the game will feel very much the same. Bioware's entire reason for making this game was the popularity of the KOTOR games and they are focusing on bringing their tried and true single-player RPG elements to this game. That pretty much guarantees that the game will be very much like single-player Bioware RPGs in many respects...
If you adored KOTOR, I would think you would be happy with the overall direction they are taking with this game. And everything they have announced has indicated that Bioware IS delivering something much more than what they gave us in the single-player KOTOR games...
As for freedom of movement in space... I still don't see why that is necessary at all. It has never been a part of any Bioware space RPGs, so I for one never expected them to go off in that direction. As a longtime Bioware fan, I actually expected there to be nothing but a ship with a starmap - as has been the case in every Bioware space RPG thus far. Just because this game is an MMO doesn't mean Bioware is planning to divert from their core strengths as a gaming company... nor would I want them to.
In my Call of Duty comparison, I was stating that it would be like adding a RACING game on top of the FPS because they are fundamentally different types of games. Combat vehicles in COD and Halo Reach are not the same thing. In my opinion, I find Bioware's story focus and dialogue-centric RPG style to be entirely different from a space flight simulator. Bioware has never done anything even remotely close to what people are suggesting they do with adding a full space flight sim on top of their existing game. The type of gameplay you are demanding is something that Bioware as a company has never shown ANY interest in whatsoever.
Well then all I can say is you are wasting your time here. This game has a whole lot of 'farting around with ewoks' as you describe it and none of your X-Wing/Tie-Fighter gameplay. It will obviously never be what you want it to be.
But the good news is you can always go play SWG if its really that important to you. We all know how well everything worked out in that game after all...
Way to miss the point there genius!
First off, this is a discussion forum...everyone here is wasting their time, that's kind of the point.
I'm not leading some sort of Bioware boycott or hate fest; in fact I have stated multiple times that I think SWTOR will be a good game, just not one that I want to play. I was responding to the OPs question and explaining that while I don't agree with it, I can understand the "demand" for a better space system.
Personally, I feel the game is what it is (and at least it is being reasonably honest about what it is); potential players should assess it on that basis and if it lacks what they want then they should stay away from it. However, I DO understand why it has pissed many people and I think the reasons are pretty clear and obvious. Also, understanding that it "isn't the game for me" doesn't make me any less disappointed with the current state and likely future of the SW IP franchise.
Yes, people should be expecting something VERY MUCH like KOTOR. Not exactly the same obviously, but it is to be expected that the game will feel very much the same. Bioware's entire reason for making this game was the popularity of the KOTOR games and they are focusing on bringing their tried and true single-player RPG elements to this game. That pretty much guarantees that the game will be very much like single-player Bioware RPGs in many respects...
If you adored KOTOR, I would think you would be happy with the overall direction they are taking with this game. And everything they have announced has indicated that Bioware IS delivering something much more than what they gave us in the single-player KOTOR games...
As for freedom of movement in space... I still don't see why that is necessary at all. It has never been a part of any Bioware space RPGs, so I for one never expected them to go off in that direction. As a longtime Bioware fan, I actually expected there to be nothing but a ship with a starmap - as has been the case in every Bioware space RPG thus far. Just because this game is an MMO doesn't mean Bioware is planning to divert from their core strengths as a gaming company... nor would I want them to.
In my Call of Duty comparison, I was stating that it would be like adding a RACING game on top of the FPS because they are fundamentally different types of games. Combat vehicles in COD and Halo Reach are not the same thing. In my opinion, I find Bioware's story focus and dialogue-centric RPG style to be entirely different from a space flight simulator. Bioware has never done anything even remotely close to what people are suggesting they do with adding a full space flight sim on top of their existing game. The type of gameplay you are demanding is something that Bioware as a company has never shown ANY interest in whatsoever.
For whatever it's worth, in my opinion, the greatest strength of KotOR (arguably, Bioware themselves) was storytelling. For me, it wasn't the game's UI, character progression model, or d20-based ruleset. It most certainly wasn't the console-inspired, space-turret or speeder-bike mini-games. To be quite frank, the latter did more to detract from the game (for me) than add to it.
Now if you're arguing their focus once again will be (should be) storytelling, and that's what I should expect and hold to high standards, then I couldn't agree with you more.
That said, I can't help but find your criticism disingenuous.
You conceded you would object if the game in its entirety was a rail shooter. Again, how is that beside the point?
Why is freedom of movement irrelevant (unnecessary) in space, but unacceptable anywhere else? Do you fail to see the contradiction here?
As for Bioware bucking former trends, need I point out this isn't as uncommon as you'd suggest? Take a look at Jade Empire, which rather than conventional RPG, turn-based combat (aka: Neverwinter Nights) adopted a more action-based, button-mashing formula. Better still, how 'bout Mass Effect… which essentially evolved into a cover-based, "twitchy" 3rd person shooter?
Where is it said incorporating a few aspects from a "space flight simulator" (again, all I'm personally asking for is basic freedom of movement here—not Eve Online with a Star Wars skin) has to be mutually exclusive to storytelling?
To the best of my knowledge, no one here is asking for a RACING game on top of an FPS (though it's ironic considering the original KotOR did include a racing game). We're simply asking for COMBAT VEHICLES that afford us the same freedom of movement in space you expect on the ground… most likely, for all the same reasons.
Comments
Actually the post sprang to mind after reading a quote:
"A cap of good acid costs five dollars and for that you can hear the Universal Symphony with God singing solo and Holy Ghost on drums." Hunter S. Thompson.
Thanks for the tip though, kid.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
Understood...And I believe they meant exactly that...But I think they also know beyond a shadow of a doubt an MMO has to offer WAY more than a console game...It just does...I think they were referring to the actual size and scope of the game, the stories, etc...But they understand that's just the beginning with an MMO...Especially an MMO with the SW license...They HAVE to know it...
How is it beside the point?
People should be expecting a game like Knights of the Old Republic? A turn-based, single-player RPG without a monthly fee?
Don't get me wrong; I adored KotOR. I just don't think it's unreasonable (seven years later) to expect more from a subscription-based MMO with over a $150 million budget.
Asking for the same freedom of movement you expect from the ground game (aka: the capacity to stop and/or turn around) is hardly the same as demanding a full-fledged space simulation or Raph Koster-esque, re-skinned UO grindfest.
The comparison to Call of Duty is particularly apropos given that (unless I'm mistaken) it does include (non-rail shooter) vehicular gameplay. For that matter, I don't know if you follow the Halo series, but it's my understanding that FPS title as well will add dogfighting and non-linear space combat in its next iteration:
http://www.gametrailers.com/video/exclusive-space-halo-reach/701420
From my point of view, they gone and made a KOTOR like single player game with some multiplayer coop play thrown in, and with the space tossed in as an afterthought, with barely any effort to do anything mmo-ish with the space.
The space in swg, although still rather basic, was still like an mmo in space - and of course the pvp in the arena zones was quite fun and intense, when one managed to find fights.
Chances are I'll give TOR a shot, simply because it's not more stupid elves and goblins (and kotor was an amusing game), so in that respect I'd show some support by playing. We need more sci-fi mmos eh?
Yes, people should be expecting something VERY MUCH like KOTOR. Not exactly the same obviously, but it is to be expected that the game will feel very much the same. Bioware's entire reason for making this game was the popularity of the KOTOR games and they are focusing on bringing their tried and true single-player RPG elements to this game. That pretty much guarantees that the game will be very much like single-player Bioware RPGs in many respects...
If you adored KOTOR, I would think you would be happy with the overall direction they are taking with this game. And everything they have announced has indicated that Bioware IS delivering something much more than what they gave us in the single-player KOTOR games...
As for freedom of movement in space... I still don't see why that is necessary at all. It has never been a part of any Bioware space RPGs, so I for one never expected them to go off in that direction. As a longtime Bioware fan, I actually expected there to be nothing but a ship with a starmap - as has been the case in every Bioware space RPG thus far. Just because this game is an MMO doesn't mean Bioware is planning to divert from their core strengths as a gaming company... nor would I want them to.
In my Call of Duty comparison, I was stating that it would be like adding a RACING game on top of the FPS because they are fundamentally different types of games. Combat vehicles in COD and Halo Reach are not the same thing. In my opinion, I find Bioware's story focus and dialogue-centric RPG style to be entirely different from a space flight simulator. Bioware has never done anything even remotely close to what people are suggesting they do with adding a full space flight sim on top of their existing game. The type of gameplay you are demanding is something that Bioware as a company has never shown ANY interest in whatsoever.
Way to miss the point there genius!
First off, this is a discussion forum...everyone here is wasting their time, that's kind of the point.
I'm not leading some sort of Bioware boycott or hate fest; in fact I have stated multiple times that I think SWTOR will be a good game, just not one that I want to play. I was responding to the OPs question and explaining that while I don't agree with it, I can understand the "demand" for a better space system.
Personally, I feel the game is what it is (and at least it is being reasonably honest about what it is); potential players should assess it on that basis and if it lacks what they want then they should stay away from it. However, I DO understand why it has pissed many people and I think the reasons are pretty clear and obvious. Also, understanding that it "isn't the game for me" doesn't make me any less disappointed with the current state and likely future of the SW IP franchise.
For whatever it's worth, in my opinion, the greatest strength of KotOR (arguably, Bioware themselves) was storytelling. For me, it wasn't the game's UI, character progression model, or d20-based ruleset. It most certainly wasn't the console-inspired, space-turret or speeder-bike mini-games. To be quite frank, the latter did more to detract from the game (for me) than add to it.
Now if you're arguing their focus once again will be (should be) storytelling, and that's what I should expect and hold to high standards, then I couldn't agree with you more.
That said, I can't help but find your criticism disingenuous.
You conceded you would object if the game in its entirety was a rail shooter. Again, how is that beside the point?
Why is freedom of movement irrelevant (unnecessary) in space, but unacceptable anywhere else? Do you fail to see the contradiction here?
As for Bioware bucking former trends, need I point out this isn't as uncommon as you'd suggest? Take a look at Jade Empire, which rather than conventional RPG, turn-based combat (aka: Neverwinter Nights) adopted a more action-based, button-mashing formula. Better still, how 'bout Mass Effect… which essentially evolved into a cover-based, "twitchy" 3rd person shooter?
Where is it said incorporating a few aspects from a "space flight simulator" (again, all I'm personally asking for is basic freedom of movement here—not Eve Online with a Star Wars skin) has to be mutually exclusive to storytelling?
To the best of my knowledge, no one here is asking for a RACING game on top of an FPS (though it's ironic considering the original KotOR did include a racing game). We're simply asking for COMBAT VEHICLES that afford us the same freedom of movement in space you expect on the ground… most likely, for all the same reasons.