In the real world, in books, in films, there is no aggro table, there are no instant healers, it's a much more dynamic style, you look after yourself and your team, with good positioning, crowd control, debuffs/buffs.
In reality would you rather take a non-lethal but still damaging attack, or dodge out of the way, would you rather take that sword to the chest, or throw sand in their eyes to disorient them and gain an advantage? Would you attempt to get everyone to attack you by running into the open, or would you run back into a killzone your comrades had set up with archers/guns?
Avoidance, Crowd control, Positioning - this is what guild wars was always about, and it's being improved upon in the sequel.
Other games of note include the amazing afformentioned Phantasy Star Online, heals were available but it was down to skill to avoid attacks most of the time the enemy would 1shot you.
Age of Conan, terrible launch, but some good ideas, the healing in that was very much the groups responsibility, the hots were not strong enough to tank any serious amount of damage, so the team had to stun and control mobs, run out of aoe, the healers had to help nuke adds (nukes even buffed your heals if specced).
It's very much in the book adventurer style, the trinity is a really dumb concept as soon as you take it out of gaming. I admit it can be very fun, but it comes at the price of dynamism.
People saying there will be bad supporters, yes there will be bad PLAYERS, but this always happens, you'll just have to up your game to compensate. They will most likely get bad participation scores until they improve.
To the people complaining about how easy the demo looked, it was artificially nerfed due to players only getting 45 mins with the game.
I'd wager the real shatterer fight could easily wipe a group that wasn't careful. In the videos the player often ended up on 5% life. and many died.
In the first fight with the earth elemental at level 1-2, without dodging the player would most likely have died.
Is it really so bad to have a quality combat system such as those present in action-rpgs, in an mmo?
I'm sick of mmos being so easy nobody even bothers to learn their class at all, because they don't need to.
wow.... just... wow ^^
"real world" as a refference for fantasy combat,
assumptions about difficulty stated as truth,
so much fail I don't even know where to begin.... meh you know what? not even gonna bother... complete waste of time
Age of Conan is indeed a nice example of how you can make the healers more interesting... even though you can spec for pretty powerful healing with at least BS and PoM it needs some good coordination to get high dmg fights done without losing the tank...
i have to ask though - what do you mean by "action RPG combat" ? something like, say, AoC? or more along the lines of Devil may Cry? or maybe Diablo?
AoC style I can agree with... that is in fact very fun and challenging, but the other 2.... ugh....
and about MMOs being too easy.... that's what I have been preaching all over this thread.... GW2 looks too easy!
<S.T.E.A.L.T.H> An Agency that kicks so much ass it has to be written in all capital letters... divided by dots! www.stealth-industries.de
No "dedicated healer class" does NOT mean you can't have a dedicated healing templeted character.
It does NOT mean everyone needs to heal others. It just means there is more freedom to stray away from the tired lame format that plagues most MMO's today.
Exactly. Besides, they put a mechanic in place so you can dodge and AVOID damage. If people are too stupid to dodge a giant fireball, they deserve to die, LOL.
This will also mea that you can't just spam your DPS skills but allways need to keep an eye on your friends or the even the random players near you participating in the event.
Or
That it turns into every man, woman, and child for themself. My bet is that most encounters will be a zerg-fest where everyone only looks out for number one and tries not to step in number two.
“It's unwise to pay too much, but it's worse to pay too little. When you pay too much, you lose a little money - that's all. When you pay too little, you sometimes lose everything, because the thing you bought was incapable of doing the thing it was bought to do. The common law of business balance prohibits paying a little and getting a lot - it can't be done. If you deal with the lowest bidder, it is well to add something for the risk you run, and if you do that you will have enough to pay for something better.”
This will also mea that you can't just spam your DPS skills but allways need to keep an eye on your friends or the even the random players near you participating in the event.
Or
That it turns into every man, woman, and child for themself. My bet is that most encounters will be a zerg-fest where everyone only looks out for number one and tries not to step in number two.
Then those groups will fail miserably.
You can do instances without healers or tanks, it takes more coordination, CC and skill then doing it with one...and it's the least zergy you can do it.
You can team pvp with dps vs dps and the team that works the best together will ALWAYS win.
This will also mea that you can't just spam your DPS skills but allways need to keep an eye on your friends or the even the random players near you participating in the event.
Or
That it turns into every man, woman, and child for themself. My bet is that most encounters will be a zerg-fest where everyone only looks out for number one and tries not to step in number two.
Then those groups will fail miserably.
You can do instances without healers or tanks, it takes more coordination, CC and skill then doing it with one...and it's the least zergy you can do it.
You can team pvp with dps vs dps and the team that works the best together will ALWAYS win.
Remove the trinity goggles for once.
I watched the videos amd even asked current players if GW was kind of a zerg-fest, i was told it was and the video looked like it was.
If it walks like a zer-fest and talks like a zerg-fest it probably is. We will all know in time but the videos that are out there make it look like it is everyone for themself.
Additionally, I never stated anything about the trinity. Try commenting on what people write and not your own ideas of what they have written.
“It's unwise to pay too much, but it's worse to pay too little. When you pay too much, you lose a little money - that's all. When you pay too little, you sometimes lose everything, because the thing you bought was incapable of doing the thing it was bought to do. The common law of business balance prohibits paying a little and getting a lot - it can't be done. If you deal with the lowest bidder, it is well to add something for the risk you run, and if you do that you will have enough to pay for something better.”
This will also mea that you can't just spam your DPS skills but allways need to keep an eye on your friends or the even the random players near you participating in the event.
Or
That it turns into every man, woman, and child for themself. My bet is that most encounters will be a zerg-fest where everyone only looks out for number one and tries not to step in number two.
Then those groups will fail miserably.
You can do instances without healers or tanks, it takes more coordination, CC and skill then doing it with one...and it's the least zergy you can do it.
You can team pvp with dps vs dps and the team that works the best together will ALWAYS win.
Remove the trinity goggles for once.
I watched the videos amd even asked current players if GW was kind of a zerg-fest, i was told it was and the video looked like it was.
If it walks like a zer-fest and talks like a zerg-fest it probably is. We will all know in time but the videos that are out there make it look like it is everyone for themself.
Additionally, I never stated anything about the trinity. Try commenting on what people write and not your own ideas of what they have written.
How was gw1 a zerg fest? Only people who didn't know what the hell they were doing treated it as zerg fest and they woulld all wipe in HM or the more difficult sections of NM. It was an 8 man game against teams of enemies. Tell me exactly how that is a zerg?
This will also mea that you can't just spam your DPS skills but allways need to keep an eye on your friends or the even the random players near you participating in the event.
Or
That it turns into every man, woman, and child for themself. My bet is that most encounters will be a zerg-fest where everyone only looks out for number one and tries not to step in number two.
Then those groups will fail miserably.
You can do instances without healers or tanks, it takes more coordination, CC and skill then doing it with one...and it's the least zergy you can do it.
You can team pvp with dps vs dps and the team that works the best together will ALWAYS win.
Remove the trinity goggles for once.
I watched the videos amd even asked current players if GW was kind of a zerg-fest, i was told it was and the video looked like it was.
If it walks like a zer-fest and talks like a zerg-fest it probably is. We will all know in time but the videos that are out there make it look like it is everyone for themself.
Additionally, I never stated anything about the trinity. Try commenting on what people write and not your own ideas of what they have written.
So basically you're stating that a game is a zergfest based on hearsay and random videos from a ALPHA demo.
From that point of view ALL games are zergfests and there's nothing we can discuss here.
I really don't get why people are so reluctant to try anything that might be innovation.
This will also mea that you can't just spam your DPS skills but allways need to keep an eye on your friends or the even the random players near you participating in the event.
Or
That it turns into every man, woman, and child for themself. My bet is that most encounters will be a zerg-fest where everyone only looks out for number one and tries not to step in number two.
Then those groups will fail miserably.
You can do instances without healers or tanks, it takes more coordination, CC and skill then doing it with one...and it's the least zergy you can do it.
You can team pvp with dps vs dps and the team that works the best together will ALWAYS win.
Remove the trinity goggles for once.
I watched the videos amd even asked current players if GW was kind of a zerg-fest, i was told it was and the video looked like it was.
If it walks like a zer-fest and talks like a zerg-fest it probably is. We will all know in time but the videos that are out there make it look like it is everyone for themself.
Additionally, I never stated anything about the trinity. Try commenting on what people write and not your own ideas of what they have written.
If the enemy out numbers you (which in GW it often does), is it still a "zerg-fest"?
Try doing something like Slavers Exile without some tactics and coordination, you'll never even reach one boss there.
As other people have already mentioned, there's different things to focus or specialise in in GW2, sure in the beginning it'll be zerg but when people slowly get to know their own class and those of others all kinds of roles will emerge.
People forget, there may not be dedicated healers but there will be classes specialised in Support roles, and there will be skill lines that are heavy in the proactive damage reduction and deflection instead of merely the reactive damage recovery that healing is.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Everyone that is saying the game looks too easy remember it is a DEMO. They made it easy on purpose. The only people complaining is the people that never played GW1 waiting for a Monk for over 3 hours. FYI there was no real tank class in guild wars one there was crippling, bleeding, and etc. All those move helped keep the enemies away from the paper classes. In Nightfall they introduced the dervish and paragon class that had skill which did damage and healed the player at the same time. So some of their ideas are not new they are just expanding on it.
i mean come on people this is not the only game to do it. EVE online doesn't have a healing class. Everybody looks out for their own health as well as their teammates and if anyone is running low on health they would use support skill to help them (repair drones, scrambling enemy, weapon jamming and etc).
There are gonna be support mainly classes but they are getting rid of the dedicated healer because of all the problems it caused it GW1. GW2 is all about playing in parties, knowing your friends/party mate's skill and incorporating it into in your skills to come up with amazing tactics like in EVE
Oh and GW1 was never a "zergfest". Lmao i just found out what mean today and i have never experienced that in guild wars(in Aion yes). I remember waiting 20 minutes with a full party trying to figure out with hordes (emphasis on hordes) of enemies we would attack first in order not to get totally destroyed and we would always have to revive at least 1 or 2 people each small battle
also, I never said WoW is the endallbeall Mr. Assumption...
and just a little hint.... this whole "thinking outside of the box" argument is the stupidest thing ever to say about someone else during a discussion.... "outside of the box thinking" applies to coming up with ideas, brainstorming and the likes.... this is a discussion about a certain topic. My opinion is trinity = good, GW2 system = stupid. That's both my opinion and my viewpoint in this discussion. It's people with different viewpoints who are supposed to give counter arguments and maybe in the end convince me that I'm wrong... and here you are accusing me of not thinking outside the box
that doesn't make any sense.... go get some real arguments, maybe brush up on a bit of school stuff you missed and then try again.
<S.T.E.A.L.T.H> An Agency that kicks so much ass it has to be written in all capital letters... divided by dots! www.stealth-industries.de
and just a little hint.... this whole "thinking outside of the box" argument is the stupidest thing ever to say about someone else during a discussion.... "outside of the box thinking" applies to coming up with ideas, brainstorming and the likes.... this is a discussion about a certain topic. My opinion is trinity = good, GW2 system = stupid. That's both my opinion and my viewpoint in this discussion. It's people with different viewpoints who are supposed to give counter arguments and maybe in the end convince me that I'm wrong... and here you are accusing me of not thinking outside the box
that doesn't make any sense.... go get some real arguments, maybe brush up on a bit of school stuff you missed and then try again.
Actually, you also needs to argument for your cause.
Anyways:
Holy triad:
+
Easy to program
Only one thing for the player to focus on
Easy to opt your character for the game
Proven to work
-
Predictable combat
You need 1 or 2 of certain classes and they might be hard to get
Has been the same since Meridian 59, the first MMO ever
the most unrealistic thing possible
GW2
+
less predictable
Forces the dev to make a better AI
Easier to get groups
Forces the players to pay more attention to what is happening
-
Never been proven to actually work
Makes combat harder (this can be a plus too depending on who you asks)
Makes it harder to make a good build since you need to be able to do everything yourself
It is harder to see which player that didn't do his work well.
I for one liked GW1s combat with no tanks and think getting rid of the healer is a good idea but if you don't there always are TOR and many other MMOs in the making.
The trinity has advantages but it has been done for a long time now, that some devs tries something new is good news, just doing exactly the same thing over and over will eventually either kill the genre or make it really small (and that goes for all aspects of the genre, not just the holy triad).
also, I never said WoW is the endallbeall Mr. Assumption...
and just a little hint.... this whole "thinking outside of the box" argument is the stupidest thing ever to say about someone else during a discussion.... "outside of the box thinking" applies to coming up with ideas, brainstorming and the likes.... this is a discussion about a certain topic. My opinion is trinity = good, GW2 system = stupid. That's both my opinion and my viewpoint in this discussion. It's people with different viewpoints who are supposed to give counter arguments and maybe in the end convince me that I'm wrong... and here you are accusing me of not thinking outside the box
that doesn't make any sense.... go get some real arguments, maybe brush up on a bit of school stuff you missed and then try again.
"Thinking out of the box" also means to think about other ways of doing things.(Which is not neccessarily Brainstorming)
Right now you are only thinking inside a box. Where you need a tank/dps/healer to play. You never tried to group with out that combo? There are other ways to play and GW2 is showing you that there is other ways.
Right now in EQ2 I run with a regular group consisting of a necro(Tank) Wizard, Warlock and an Illusionist. We run most dungeons just fine, maybe a little slower than the Trinity but we do just fine. We are all looking at this game with great anticipation, knowing that we will be able to play what class we want and still do the content.
Even with the 4 classes they have shown us so far, we have come up with our group make up. (subject to change depending on the other 4 classes) We will run with an elemental,2 necro's and a ranger. The ranger can set traps to hold the mob while the elemental places a damage ring around the mob, then switches to water based spells for group healing and damage.Necro's can fear adds and add dps with minions and soul taps (If that is what they are called.) while we might lose some battles early on, while we learn our class abilities. I'm sure we will end up being a great group. And probably have more fun than running the tank/dps/healer setup.
So while I respect your opinion, I disagree with it. My opinion is Trinity = good, GW2 system = Great.
also, I never said WoW is the endallbeall Mr. Assumption...
and just a little hint.... this whole "thinking outside of the box" argument is the stupidest thing ever to say about someone else during a discussion.... "outside of the box thinking" applies to coming up with ideas, brainstorming and the likes.... this is a discussion about a certain topic. My opinion is trinity = good, GW2 system = stupid. That's both my opinion and my viewpoint in this discussion. It's people with different viewpoints who are supposed to give counter arguments and maybe in the end convince me that I'm wrong... and here you are accusing me of not thinking outside the box
that doesn't make any sense.... go get some real arguments, maybe brush up on a bit of school stuff you missed and then try again.
Anyone that says C'Thun pre-nerf was the epitome of PVE is clearly biased.
I'm not gonna respond to your insults though, trolls will be trolls and you clearly have some kind of complex goin'on...good luck with that, honestly!
Thinking outside the box applies to thinking outside of your confort zone, so you don't believe on different systems
...people also were scared to think the Earth was actually round, doesn't mean that idea didn't sink in eventually.
Also, i'd love to hear any arguments to why can't ANY system not have a tank, is the trinity the only game you're willing to play?
It'll just be memorising the attack patterns of bosses which means pressing the right buttons at the right time.
Lol... the hilarious thing is that's exactly whats wrong with the trinity and what this game is trying to break. The trinity limits variation how do you not get that?
It'll just be memorising the attack patterns of bosses which means pressing the right buttons at the right time.
Lol... the hilarious thing is that's exactly whats wrong with the trinity and what this game is trying to break. The trinity limits variation how do you not get that?
The trinity was born from the old PnP game D&D, where almost every good D&D group had a Cleric, a Fighter and any other class. While I like a bit of innovation, I think there's only so much you can do without keeping that trinity. You need a way to make encounters hard, but without the healers and fighters there to act as a buffer, you're going to need some weird gimmick to be able to do it. I mean, you can't have a boss mob smack a character for 1500 of his 2000 hitpoints every round if you have no dedicated healing coming in, so you need to think up some other way of doing it.
And I reckon this is the way they'll do it. Dance Dance Revolution might be a bit tongue in cheek, but I can see it being quite similar, in that each specific attack a boss does will require some movement, defense or attack to be able to avoid it. While it won't be as regimented as DDR I think that's how they're going to do it.
It'll just be memorising the attack patterns of bosses which means pressing the right buttons at the right time.
Lol... the hilarious thing is that's exactly whats wrong with the trinity and what this game is trying to break. The trinity limits variation how do you not get that?
The trinity was born from the old PnP game D&D, where almost every good D&D group had a Cleric, a Fighter and any other class. While I like a bit of innovation, I think there's only so much you can do without keeping that trinity. You need a way to make encounters hard, but without the healers and fighters there to act as a buffer, you're going to need some weird gimmick to be able to do it. I mean, you can't have a boss mob smack a character for 1500 of his 2000 hitpoints every round if you have no dedicated healing coming in, so you need to think up some other way of doing it.
And I reckon this is the way they'll do it. Dance Dance Revolution might be a bit tongue in cheek, but I can see it being quite similar, in that each specific attack a boss does will require some movement, defense or attack to be able to avoid it. While it won't be as regimented as DDR I think that's how they're going to do it.
Let me take your example and explain it to you. What GW2 is trying to do is prevent you from taking that 2000 points of damage in the first place, its like when they say "prevention is better than cure" and it most certainly is. Gw2 never said anything about totally removing the trinity, they are just replacing it with their own trinity; CONTROL, SUPPORT, DAMAGE.
Another example; If I knew a boss was going to hit youu for 1500 -2000 points of damage, I would put protective spirit on you reducing the damage to only 10% of your current health, therefore if your health is 600 you only take 60 damage or if your health is 3000 you only take 300 damage. HOW THE HECK is that not better than waiting for you to take damage? And that is what Anet is going for. If that doesn't make sense to people then I don't know how else to explain it.
The trinity was born from the old PnP game D&D, where almost every good D&D group had a Cleric, a Fighter and any other class. While I like a bit of innovation, I think there's only so much you can do without keeping that trinity. You need a way to make encounters hard, but without the healers and fighters there to act as a buffer, you're going to need some weird gimmick to be able to do it. I mean, you can't have a boss mob smack a character for 1500 of his 2000 hitpoints every round if you have no dedicated healing coming in, so you need to think up some other way of doing it.
I (as a GM) had no "aggro system" in my PnP games and monster behavior was always in line with the intelligence of the monster. If I saw an opening with a smart monster, I took that mage out in a heartbeat - tank or no tank. Mages had to use their defensive spells to stay alive. Fighters had to be tough enough in order to survive up close to the monster and at the same time do enough damage to be of any use to the party. D&D cleric isn't even as powerful healer as healers are in a traditional MMORPGs.
"The tank" was born of stupid AI in games where the monster attacked the first thing it could see and never change target. -Stupid AI.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
I actually really like the healing,most people would disagree but I actually like the fact that if I am a healer,the team cannot survive without me thous making them try and protect me.
In GW2 I'm pretty much going to open a "dedicated" healer,that is probably going to be an Elementalist with Water Attunement.
It seems a lot of people are still missing the point behind GW2's combat system. The trinity is basically a mechanic designed to organize / structure how mobs attack players. Nothing more, nothing less. GW2's combat focus' on a different type of gameplay:
For example: If you were to play an FPS with your friends, you don't have a trinity system. Some players may have more armor, some players may have stronger weapons, but if anyone gets hit by that 2000 dmg canon they're dead. There is no tank & spank. Now imagine a similar system in an MMO. Instead of a tank, you have other ways to mitigate damage. As in FPS you have cover / support fire / explosives, in GW2 you have support spells, disables (crowd control) and AoE. You also have different types of damage. Attacking a heavily armored boss? Well you aren't going to wannt to just spam attacks at him. You will want to wear him down, using debuffs / crippling attacks / armor ignoring attacks to take him out. Maybe you have cannons for supporting fire, or a wall that you need to maintain to give your teamm8s cover.
If you fully grasp what I'm getting at, you should start to see a trend here. Instead of a combat system based around which mob should be stuck to which character, it's based around what skills are being used on whom, and how to best counter it. It's a system based on skills, not tank and spank.
Here's another example. You have a monster you're fighting he has 2000hp. You could either try and DPS race him with a bunch of elementalists / rangers, and just spam attacks for say 90 damage each. With 5 players, you would be doing 450 damage per attack, and in roughly 5 rounds of attacks the monster would be dead. However, if you swapped one of those players out for a warrior. You could say, add some attacks that inflict deep wound / weakness / cripple / etc. So instead of trying to beat on a monster 5 times per party member and hope you're alive after that, you could add conditions to the equation and inlict deep wound (health gets reduced by 10%) so now you only have to deal 1800 dmg. Weakness (damage gets reduced by 70?%) so now you are taking MUCH less damage. Cripple (target moves 50% slower). So now, while you are lacking a 90dmg per hit player. You make up for that with A LOT of offensive / defensive support. You will be able to kill the monster faster (the warrior is still doing damage), and you will have a much better chance of surviving, because the monster will take longer to reach your party members & do less damage when he does.
I know the above example may be confusing, but that's generally how the combat works. Yes, you could try to just powerhouse DPS (and some people do), but you're going to have a lot of problems. What good is having a group that does 2000 dps, when you're facing a group that's protected by prot spirit (target can only recieve dmg = to 10% of max hp, or less). Or maybe they have a skill that negates certain types of attacks, and disables skills of a similar type by the caster (mesmer). You are going to have a much tougher time dealing w/ enemies like that, then if you brought along someone who could break protection spells, or drain energy, etc.
This is how the GW combat system works, and this is why it doesn't need a trinity. There is much more going on that just damage, mitigation, and healing. The success of a team will rely on it's ability to plan ahead, and use the right skills to deal with the situation, rather than having the best armor, a dedicated healer, and enough dps to kill the monster before the healer runs out of mana.
I actually really like the healing,most people would disagree but I actually like the fact that if I am a healer,the team cannot survive without me thous making them try and protect me.
In GW2 I'm pretty much going to open a "dedicated" healer,that is probably going to be an Elementalist with Water Attunement.
Just a suggestion. I'd strongly recommend looking up some of the skills from GW1. This will give you a good sense of how things will fit together in GW2 (though it looks like GW2 will be a bit simpler on their skills). We don't have a detailed skill list available yet, but I'd strongly suggest that if you really like that 'dedicated healer' role, that you look into playing a 'dedicated support' rather than just healing.
What I mean by this, is u can still get that feeling of being 'vital' to the team, and need to stay on your toes to make sure your team stays alive. However you don't do that by focusing on healing, as much as you do by focusing on preventing damage, or negating it altogether. IE. If you see a monster about to use a big attack, cast reversal of fortune on it's target (negates a certain amount of damage, and turns it into health instead). Or if you are facing enemies that will dispell your buffs, interrupt them / recast your buffs if they fall. I played a supportive monk in GW1 (prot monk) and for much of the game they were way more beneficial than having a dedicated healer. My team was nearly impossible to kill, and I had just enough healing that if they lost life I could give them a little back. Focus too much on healing and it can put your entire team at a disadvantage. You're teamm8s can get spiked (recieve a ton of damage in an instant) and there's no way to heal that if it kills them. Also, a good warrior can constantly knock you on your ass, making it hard to cast much of anything.
If you bring support skills, and a couple heals for those 'oh crap' moments, it's ultimately much better for the group. You can bring buffs to protect against knockdown, mitigate damage (make it harder for your party to be hit, or reduce the damage by a large margin) and combine that w/ maybe a regen spell, or a small / quick heal to repair any damage that does get through.
Not trying to tell you how to play, but just keep in mind that this is how GW2's combat is designed to play out.
What arena-net is doing is to analize the mechanic behind the trinity. Identify them as support, control and damage. Working with that allows them to adress some problems that comes with the tank, healer, dps. Adressing them at a more fundemental level. Or we could say they are taking the trinity to a new level.
You might not agree with the problems, maybe being so used to the old trinity that you don't even see that it could be different. We have seen quite a few eksamples on that in this and other threads lately. I do think that the eksample in the artikle about random arena play eksplain very good whats some of the problems is , but if you havent played GW1 how should you know?
I think the big question is do you agree with thesse 2 statements in the healing artikle?
" Tanking is the most rudimentary form of the most important combat fundamental, CONTROL"
"Healing is the least dynamic kind of support there is."
If you do , then it should make perfect sense to go the direction that they do in GW2. If you dont agre then lets us discuss! because the statements are the core of whats this discussion is about.
Let me take your example and explain it to you. What GW2 is trying to do is prevent you from taking that 2000 points of damage in the first place, its like when they say "prevention is better than cure" and it most certainly is. Gw2 never said anything about totally removing the trinity, they are just replacing it with their own trinity; CONTROL, SUPPORT, DAMAGE.
Another example; If I knew a boss was going to hit youu for 1500 -2000 points of damage, I would put protective spirit on you reducing the damage to only 10% of your current health, therefore if your health is 600 you only take 60 damage or if your health is 3000 you only take 300 damage. HOW THE HECK is that not better than waiting for you to take damage? And that is what Anet is going for. If that doesn't make sense to people then I don't know how else to explain it.
That's exactly what I'm saying, that instead of dealing with damage and aggro, it'll be a case of memorizing attack patterns instead. For example a boss might do the following: AoE Melee, AoE Fire Blast, Magic Dispel. The players would then perform a Melee Protection, Fire Protection, then have those Protections dispelled and circle back around for the next round of attacks.
I doubt we're going to see Bosses picking attacks at random, they're going to have a set pre-programmed pattern that the players will be able to follow and eventually counter so they can win the battle. Sort of like Simon Says or.. Dance Dance Revolution.
Comments
wow.... just... wow ^^
"real world" as a refference for fantasy combat,
assumptions about difficulty stated as truth,
so much fail I don't even know where to begin.... meh you know what? not even gonna bother... complete waste of time
Age of Conan is indeed a nice example of how you can make the healers more interesting... even though you can spec for pretty powerful healing with at least BS and PoM it needs some good coordination to get high dmg fights done without losing the tank...
i have to ask though - what do you mean by "action RPG combat" ? something like, say, AoC? or more along the lines of Devil may Cry? or maybe Diablo?
AoC style I can agree with... that is in fact very fun and challenging, but the other 2.... ugh....
and about MMOs being too easy.... that's what I have been preaching all over this thread.... GW2 looks too easy!
<S.T.E.A.L.T.H>
An Agency that kicks so much ass it has to be written in all capital letters... divided by dots!
www.stealth-industries.de
Exactly. Besides, they put a mechanic in place so you can dodge and AVOID damage. If people are too stupid to dodge a giant fireball, they deserve to die, LOL.
Or
That it turns into every man, woman, and child for themself. My bet is that most encounters will be a zerg-fest where everyone only looks out for number one and tries not to step in number two.
--John Ruskin
It means...
1. Having more fun instead of being a healbot.
2. No more one person to blame when the whiners complain about no heals.
3. No more Leeroy Jenkins moves in dungeon crawls.
4. Lastly it means playing smarter and becoming more of a team member than an individual.
Then those groups will fail miserably.
You can do instances without healers or tanks, it takes more coordination, CC and skill then doing it with one...and it's the least zergy you can do it.
You can team pvp with dps vs dps and the team that works the best together will ALWAYS win.
Remove the trinity goggles for once.
I watched the videos amd even asked current players if GW was kind of a zerg-fest, i was told it was and the video looked like it was.
If it walks like a zer-fest and talks like a zerg-fest it probably is. We will all know in time but the videos that are out there make it look like it is everyone for themself.
Additionally, I never stated anything about the trinity. Try commenting on what people write and not your own ideas of what they have written.
--John Ruskin
How was gw1 a zerg fest? Only people who didn't know what the hell they were doing treated it as zerg fest and they woulld all wipe in HM or the more difficult sections of NM. It was an 8 man game against teams of enemies. Tell me exactly how that is a zerg?
So basically you're stating that a game is a zergfest based on hearsay and random videos from a ALPHA demo.
From that point of view ALL games are zergfests and there's nothing we can discuss here.
I really don't get why people are so reluctant to try anything that might be innovation.
If the enemy out numbers you (which in GW it often does), is it still a "zerg-fest"?
Try doing something like Slavers Exile without some tactics and coordination, you'll never even reach one boss there.
As other people have already mentioned, there's different things to focus or specialise in in GW2, sure in the beginning it'll be zerg but when people slowly get to know their own class and those of others all kinds of roles will emerge.
People forget, there may not be dedicated healers but there will be classes specialised in Support roles, and there will be skill lines that are heavy in the proactive damage reduction and deflection instead of merely the reactive damage recovery that healing is.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Easy hack&slay? The Anet developer answers that for the demo a lot of things have been made easier than they will be in the final game.
it is in this thread http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/473/view/forums/thread/288215/Gamescom-footage-and-reviews-compilation.html
Everyone that is saying the game looks too easy remember it is a DEMO. They made it easy on purpose. The only people complaining is the people that never played GW1 waiting for a Monk for over 3 hours. FYI there was no real tank class in guild wars one there was crippling, bleeding, and etc. All those move helped keep the enemies away from the paper classes. In Nightfall they introduced the dervish and paragon class that had skill which did damage and healed the player at the same time. So some of their ideas are not new they are just expanding on it.
i mean come on people this is not the only game to do it. EVE online doesn't have a healing class. Everybody looks out for their own health as well as their teammates and if anyone is running low on health they would use support skill to help them (repair drones, scrambling enemy, weapon jamming and etc).
There are gonna be support mainly classes but they are getting rid of the dedicated healer because of all the problems it caused it GW1. GW2 is all about playing in parties, knowing your friends/party mate's skill and incorporating it into in your skills to come up with amazing tactics like in EVE
Oh and GW1 was never a "zergfest". Lmao i just found out what mean today and i have never experienced that in guild wars(in Aion yes). I remember waiting 20 minutes with a full party trying to figure out with hordes (emphasis on hordes) of enemies we would attack first in order not to get totally destroyed and we would always have to revive at least 1 or 2 people each small battle
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarcasm
also, I never said WoW is the endallbeall Mr. Assumption...
and just a little hint.... this whole "thinking outside of the box" argument is the stupidest thing ever to say about someone else during a discussion.... "outside of the box thinking" applies to coming up with ideas, brainstorming and the likes.... this is a discussion about a certain topic. My opinion is trinity = good, GW2 system = stupid. That's both my opinion and my viewpoint in this discussion. It's people with different viewpoints who are supposed to give counter arguments and maybe in the end convince me that I'm wrong... and here you are accusing me of not thinking outside the box
that doesn't make any sense.... go get some real arguments, maybe brush up on a bit of school stuff you missed and then try again.
<S.T.E.A.L.T.H>
An Agency that kicks so much ass it has to be written in all capital letters... divided by dots!
www.stealth-industries.de
Actually, you also needs to argument for your cause.
Anyways:
Holy triad:
+
Easy to program
Only one thing for the player to focus on
Easy to opt your character for the game
Proven to work
-
Predictable combat
You need 1 or 2 of certain classes and they might be hard to get
Has been the same since Meridian 59, the first MMO ever
the most unrealistic thing possible
GW2
+
less predictable
Forces the dev to make a better AI
Easier to get groups
Forces the players to pay more attention to what is happening
-
Never been proven to actually work
Makes combat harder (this can be a plus too depending on who you asks)
Makes it harder to make a good build since you need to be able to do everything yourself
It is harder to see which player that didn't do his work well.
I for one liked GW1s combat with no tanks and think getting rid of the healer is a good idea but if you don't there always are TOR and many other MMOs in the making.
The trinity has advantages but it has been done for a long time now, that some devs tries something new is good news, just doing exactly the same thing over and over will eventually either kill the genre or make it really small (and that goes for all aspects of the genre, not just the holy triad).
"Thinking out of the box" also means to think about other ways of doing things.(Which is not neccessarily Brainstorming)
Right now you are only thinking inside a box. Where you need a tank/dps/healer to play. You never tried to group with out that combo? There are other ways to play and GW2 is showing you that there is other ways.
Right now in EQ2 I run with a regular group consisting of a necro(Tank) Wizard, Warlock and an Illusionist. We run most dungeons just fine, maybe a little slower than the Trinity but we do just fine. We are all looking at this game with great anticipation, knowing that we will be able to play what class we want and still do the content.
Even with the 4 classes they have shown us so far, we have come up with our group make up. (subject to change depending on the other 4 classes) We will run with an elemental,2 necro's and a ranger. The ranger can set traps to hold the mob while the elemental places a damage ring around the mob, then switches to water based spells for group healing and damage.Necro's can fear adds and add dps with minions and soul taps (If that is what they are called.) while we might lose some battles early on, while we learn our class abilities. I'm sure we will end up being a great group. And probably have more fun than running the tank/dps/healer setup.
So while I respect your opinion, I disagree with it. My opinion is Trinity = good, GW2 system = Great.
Freedom of choice is always the best way.
Anyone that says C'Thun pre-nerf was the epitome of PVE is clearly biased.
I'm not gonna respond to your insults though, trolls will be trolls and you clearly have some kind of complex goin'on...good luck with that, honestly!
Thinking outside the box applies to thinking outside of your confort zone, so you don't believe on different systems
...people also were scared to think the Earth was actually round, doesn't mean that idea didn't sink in eventually.
Also, i'd love to hear any arguments to why can't ANY system not have a tank, is the trinity the only game you're willing to play?
Tic-Tac-Toe gets old really fast.
The way I see it, if there's no trinity then it's going to be the MMORPG equivalent of Dance Dance Revolution:
Jump, Roll, Jump, Jump, Step Back, Step Back, Step Forward, Jump.. and again.. Jump, Roll, Jump, Jump...
It'll just be memorising the attack patterns of bosses which means pressing the right buttons at the right time.
Lol... the hilarious thing is that's exactly whats wrong with the trinity and what this game is trying to break. The trinity limits variation how do you not get that?
The trinity was born from the old PnP game D&D, where almost every good D&D group had a Cleric, a Fighter and any other class. While I like a bit of innovation, I think there's only so much you can do without keeping that trinity. You need a way to make encounters hard, but without the healers and fighters there to act as a buffer, you're going to need some weird gimmick to be able to do it. I mean, you can't have a boss mob smack a character for 1500 of his 2000 hitpoints every round if you have no dedicated healing coming in, so you need to think up some other way of doing it.
And I reckon this is the way they'll do it. Dance Dance Revolution might be a bit tongue in cheek, but I can see it being quite similar, in that each specific attack a boss does will require some movement, defense or attack to be able to avoid it. While it won't be as regimented as DDR I think that's how they're going to do it.
Let me take your example and explain it to you. What GW2 is trying to do is prevent you from taking that 2000 points of damage in the first place, its like when they say "prevention is better than cure" and it most certainly is. Gw2 never said anything about totally removing the trinity, they are just replacing it with their own trinity; CONTROL, SUPPORT, DAMAGE.
Another example; If I knew a boss was going to hit youu for 1500 -2000 points of damage, I would put protective spirit on you reducing the damage to only 10% of your current health, therefore if your health is 600 you only take 60 damage or if your health is 3000 you only take 300 damage. HOW THE HECK is that not better than waiting for you to take damage? And that is what Anet is going for. If that doesn't make sense to people then I don't know how else to explain it.
This is not a game.
I (as a GM) had no "aggro system" in my PnP games and monster behavior was always in line with the intelligence of the monster. If I saw an opening with a smart monster, I took that mage out in a heartbeat - tank or no tank. Mages had to use their defensive spells to stay alive. Fighters had to be tough enough in order to survive up close to the monster and at the same time do enough damage to be of any use to the party. D&D cleric isn't even as powerful healer as healers are in a traditional MMORPGs.
"The tank" was born of stupid AI in games where the monster attacked the first thing it could see and never change target. -Stupid AI.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
I actually really like the healing,most people would disagree but I actually like the fact that if I am a healer,the team cannot survive without me thous making them try and protect me.
In GW2 I'm pretty much going to open a "dedicated" healer,that is probably going to be an Elementalist with Water Attunement.
It seems a lot of people are still missing the point behind GW2's combat system. The trinity is basically a mechanic designed to organize / structure how mobs attack players. Nothing more, nothing less. GW2's combat focus' on a different type of gameplay:
For example: If you were to play an FPS with your friends, you don't have a trinity system. Some players may have more armor, some players may have stronger weapons, but if anyone gets hit by that 2000 dmg canon they're dead. There is no tank & spank. Now imagine a similar system in an MMO. Instead of a tank, you have other ways to mitigate damage. As in FPS you have cover / support fire / explosives, in GW2 you have support spells, disables (crowd control) and AoE. You also have different types of damage. Attacking a heavily armored boss? Well you aren't going to wannt to just spam attacks at him. You will want to wear him down, using debuffs / crippling attacks / armor ignoring attacks to take him out. Maybe you have cannons for supporting fire, or a wall that you need to maintain to give your teamm8s cover.
If you fully grasp what I'm getting at, you should start to see a trend here. Instead of a combat system based around which mob should be stuck to which character, it's based around what skills are being used on whom, and how to best counter it. It's a system based on skills, not tank and spank.
Here's another example. You have a monster you're fighting he has 2000hp. You could either try and DPS race him with a bunch of elementalists / rangers, and just spam attacks for say 90 damage each. With 5 players, you would be doing 450 damage per attack, and in roughly 5 rounds of attacks the monster would be dead. However, if you swapped one of those players out for a warrior. You could say, add some attacks that inflict deep wound / weakness / cripple / etc. So instead of trying to beat on a monster 5 times per party member and hope you're alive after that, you could add conditions to the equation and inlict deep wound (health gets reduced by 10%) so now you only have to deal 1800 dmg. Weakness (damage gets reduced by 70?%) so now you are taking MUCH less damage. Cripple (target moves 50% slower). So now, while you are lacking a 90dmg per hit player. You make up for that with A LOT of offensive / defensive support. You will be able to kill the monster faster (the warrior is still doing damage), and you will have a much better chance of surviving, because the monster will take longer to reach your party members & do less damage when he does.
I know the above example may be confusing, but that's generally how the combat works. Yes, you could try to just powerhouse DPS (and some people do), but you're going to have a lot of problems. What good is having a group that does 2000 dps, when you're facing a group that's protected by prot spirit (target can only recieve dmg = to 10% of max hp, or less). Or maybe they have a skill that negates certain types of attacks, and disables skills of a similar type by the caster (mesmer). You are going to have a much tougher time dealing w/ enemies like that, then if you brought along someone who could break protection spells, or drain energy, etc.
This is how the GW combat system works, and this is why it doesn't need a trinity. There is much more going on that just damage, mitigation, and healing. The success of a team will rely on it's ability to plan ahead, and use the right skills to deal with the situation, rather than having the best armor, a dedicated healer, and enough dps to kill the monster before the healer runs out of mana.
Just a suggestion. I'd strongly recommend looking up some of the skills from GW1. This will give you a good sense of how things will fit together in GW2 (though it looks like GW2 will be a bit simpler on their skills). We don't have a detailed skill list available yet, but I'd strongly suggest that if you really like that 'dedicated healer' role, that you look into playing a 'dedicated support' rather than just healing.
What I mean by this, is u can still get that feeling of being 'vital' to the team, and need to stay on your toes to make sure your team stays alive. However you don't do that by focusing on healing, as much as you do by focusing on preventing damage, or negating it altogether. IE. If you see a monster about to use a big attack, cast reversal of fortune on it's target (negates a certain amount of damage, and turns it into health instead). Or if you are facing enemies that will dispell your buffs, interrupt them / recast your buffs if they fall. I played a supportive monk in GW1 (prot monk) and for much of the game they were way more beneficial than having a dedicated healer. My team was nearly impossible to kill, and I had just enough healing that if they lost life I could give them a little back. Focus too much on healing and it can put your entire team at a disadvantage. You're teamm8s can get spiked (recieve a ton of damage in an instant) and there's no way to heal that if it kills them. Also, a good warrior can constantly knock you on your ass, making it hard to cast much of anything.
If you bring support skills, and a couple heals for those 'oh crap' moments, it's ultimately much better for the group. You can bring buffs to protect against knockdown, mitigate damage (make it harder for your party to be hit, or reduce the damage by a large margin) and combine that w/ maybe a regen spell, or a small / quick heal to repair any damage that does get through.
Not trying to tell you how to play, but just keep in mind that this is how GW2's combat is designed to play out.
I think we go slightly down a wrong track when trying to argue about a no trinity game or a whole new trinity game in GW2
As i read the healing artikle (http://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/combat/healing-death/) thats not the case
What arena-net is doing is to analize the mechanic behind the trinity. Identify them as support, control and damage. Working with that allows them to adress some problems that comes with the tank, healer, dps. Adressing them at a more fundemental level. Or we could say they are taking the trinity to a new level.
You might not agree with the problems, maybe being so used to the old trinity that you don't even see that it could be different. We have seen quite a few eksamples on that in this and other threads lately. I do think that the eksample in the artikle about random arena play eksplain very good whats some of the problems is , but if you havent played GW1 how should you know?
I think the big question is do you agree with thesse 2 statements in the healing artikle?
" Tanking is the most rudimentary form of the most important combat fundamental, CONTROL"
"Healing is the least dynamic kind of support there is."
If you do , then it should make perfect sense to go the direction that they do in GW2. If you dont agre then lets us discuss! because the statements are the core of whats this discussion is about.
That's exactly what I'm saying, that instead of dealing with damage and aggro, it'll be a case of memorizing attack patterns instead. For example a boss might do the following: AoE Melee, AoE Fire Blast, Magic Dispel. The players would then perform a Melee Protection, Fire Protection, then have those Protections dispelled and circle back around for the next round of attacks.
I doubt we're going to see Bosses picking attacks at random, they're going to have a set pre-programmed pattern that the players will be able to follow and eventually counter so they can win the battle. Sort of like Simon Says or.. Dance Dance Revolution.