Let me take your example and explain it to you. What GW2 is trying to do is prevent you from taking that 2000 points of damage in the first place, its like when they say "prevention is better than cure" and it most certainly is. Gw2 never said anything about totally removing the trinity, they are just replacing it with their own trinity; CONTROL, SUPPORT, DAMAGE.
Another example; If I knew a boss was going to hit youu for 1500 -2000 points of damage, I would put protective spirit on you reducing the damage to only 10% of your current health, therefore if your health is 600 you only take 60 damage or if your health is 3000 you only take 300 damage. HOW THE HECK is that not better than waiting for you to take damage? And that is what Anet is going for. If that doesn't make sense to people then I don't know how else to explain it.
That's exactly what I'm saying, that instead of dealing with damage and aggro, it'll be a case of memorizing attack patterns instead. For example a boss might do the following: AoE Melee, AoE Fire Blast, Magic Dispel. The players would then perform a Melee Protection, Fire Protection, then have those Protections dispelled and circle back around for the next round of attacks.
I doubt we're going to see Bosses picking attacks at random, they're going to have a set pre-programmed pattern that the players will be able to follow and eventually counter so they can win the battle. Sort of like Simon Says or.. Dance Dance Revolution.
So we are gonna have Zelda style bosses in an MMo with difrent phases and attacks wich you will have to forsee (or learn). I geuss i could like that. Im not too sure about evryone basicly doing whatever tho. people will mostly think about themselves and fail. Failure in gaming is high theses days, they cant make it too hard. just look at WoW ICC normal mode with 30% buff and the amount of people getting anywhere.... Pure failure.
Let me take your example and explain it to you. What GW2 is trying to do is prevent you from taking that 2000 points of damage in the first place, its like when they say "prevention is better than cure" and it most certainly is. Gw2 never said anything about totally removing the trinity, they are just replacing it with their own trinity; CONTROL, SUPPORT, DAMAGE.
Another example; If I knew a boss was going to hit youu for 1500 -2000 points of damage, I would put protective spirit on you reducing the damage to only 10% of your current health, therefore if your health is 600 you only take 60 damage or if your health is 3000 you only take 300 damage. HOW THE HECK is that not better than waiting for you to take damage? And that is what Anet is going for. If that doesn't make sense to people then I don't know how else to explain it.
That's exactly what I'm saying, that instead of dealing with damage and aggro, it'll be a case of memorizing attack patterns instead. For example a boss might do the following: AoE Melee, AoE Fire Blast, Magic Dispel. The players would then perform a Melee Protection, Fire Protection, then have those Protections dispelled and circle back around for the next round of attacks.
I doubt we're going to see Bosses picking attacks at random, they're going to have a set pre-programmed pattern that the players will be able to follow and eventually counter so they can win the battle. Sort of like Simon Says or.. Dance Dance Revolution.
I don't get your point how is that in anyway fundamentally different to the trinity your still doing dance dance revolution in the trinity your it just currently reolves around aggro. The difference is variation, I could doge that attack, have a prot spell put on me, take the attack and go into downed mode while some else tries to rez me. It's LESS of a pre set path than the trinity which is the point.....
Let me take your example and explain it to you. What GW2 is trying to do is prevent you from taking that 2000 points of damage in the first place, its like when they say "prevention is better than cure" and it most certainly is. Gw2 never said anything about totally removing the trinity, they are just replacing it with their own trinity; CONTROL, SUPPORT, DAMAGE.
Another example; If I knew a boss was going to hit youu for 1500 -2000 points of damage, I would put protective spirit on you reducing the damage to only 10% of your current health, therefore if your health is 600 you only take 60 damage or if your health is 3000 you only take 300 damage. HOW THE HECK is that not better than waiting for you to take damage? And that is what Anet is going for. If that doesn't make sense to people then I don't know how else to explain it.
That's exactly what I'm saying, that instead of dealing with damage and aggro, it'll be a case of memorizing attack patterns instead. For example a boss might do the following: AoE Melee, AoE Fire Blast, Magic Dispel. The players would then perform a Melee Protection, Fire Protection, then have those Protections dispelled and circle back around for the next round of attacks.
I doubt we're going to see Bosses picking attacks at random, they're going to have a set pre-programmed pattern that the players will be able to follow and eventually counter so they can win the battle. Sort of like Simon Says or.. Dance Dance Revolution.
From my experience with GW1, I think it would be a safe bet that no boss would ever use predictable patterns of attack, especially the smarter ones like the Grawl, centaurs, Hylek, Skritt, or dredge. These lesser races (according to teh lore) have the same level of intellegence and organization as tribal humans, and I would expect the AI to behave accordingly.
In the origianl, monsters would rarely use their skill in the same order everytime; sure they might become predicatable using their skill on recharge, but it never became patterned. So I would expect to see the AI advance from the first one to a point where some of the monsters could become scarry to fight against--I'm talking the elder dragons here... If Glint and Kuunavang in the first one were that intellegent and powerful (and they being only young dragons), we should see super AI for the elder dragons if we ever get to fight them.
So tieing this back to topic, the AI shouldn't be counted out and players will have to be proactive in their support and control to mitigate damage.
The fact that there is no healing class as such will hopefully mean that players will have to TALK to each other and plan ahead. Players will have to discuss tactics with each other and find out what each others strengths and weaknesses are, as they wont just automatically know simply because "he iz a priest".
Communicating with others....hmmm....a scary prospect indeed. I dunno. It almost makes Guildwars 2 seem a bit like a roleplaying game.
The fact that there is no healing class as such will hopefully mean that players will have to TALK to each other and plan ahead. Players will have to discuss tactics with each other and find out what each others strengths and weaknesses are, as they wont just automatically know simply because "he iz a priest".
Communicating with others....hmmm....a scary prospect indeed. I dunno. It almost makes Guildwars 2 seem a bit like a roleplaying game.
Wich seems really great but if you look at the monkey's todays MMO market brings, im scared of the failure wich will come with it.
The fact that there is no healing class as such will hopefully mean that players will have to TALK to each other and plan ahead. Players will have to discuss tactics with each other and find out what each others strengths and weaknesses are, as they wont just automatically know simply because "he iz a priest".
Communicating with others....hmmm....a scary prospect indeed. I dunno. It almost makes Guildwars 2 seem a bit like a roleplaying game.
I see this as exactly the opposite.
The removal of group roles leads typically to zerg style play, with less communication imo.
The fact that there is no healing class as such will hopefully mean that players will have to TALK to each other and plan ahead. Players will have to discuss tactics with each other and find out what each others strengths and weaknesses are, as they wont just automatically know simply because "he iz a priest".
Communicating with others....hmmm....a scary prospect indeed. I dunno. It almost makes Guildwars 2 seem a bit like a roleplaying game.
I see this as exactly the opposite.
The removal of group roles leads typically to zerg style play, with less communication imo.
"man, i died.."
"stfu n00b, you should have healed yourself"
A fair point. However if certain players take the time to get to know each other and actually treat each other like travelling companions (like in a film or a real roleplaying game) then these situations can be avoided or minimised. The people that dont talk and put their trust in complete strangers who they know nothing about DESERVE to have their arses handed to them.
If a bunch of random players who dont know each other just hop into a big battle together, then they are skipping the "roleplaying" aspect of the game and therefore deserve to get whooped. Meanwhile a group of adventurers who are friends will work together and reap the rewards. Such is life.
Having played City of Villiains when it launched I can say both sides of this argument are correct. Initially people started trying to take the Thermal Corrupter thinking that is the healing build. Of course the thermal heals were dreadful as it had to be supported with the thermal shields that many thermal corrupters refused to take since they cannot cast them on themselves or since it drained the blue bar heavily they would not cast it even when they had it. Plus those shields lagged like heck. So groups were suddenly in an unenviable position of forcing themselves to rethink their playing technique so dark masterminds/corrupters and radiation corrupters debuffs were then employed before the mobs were attacked. Also the traps powers were useful for debuffing and the poison mastermind with its powerful single target debuffs for bosses. They also used controlling as another means to mitigate with dominators who had these forms of crowd control but as a secondary power which meant the better controls came in later levels.
Eventually a combination of shielding from bubbles , sonic shields and thermal shields coupled with heavy debuffing,plus using controls a form of CC became the way to get through insane missions. So when groups were formed the leaders would specifically request those builds and task those members with shielding ,debuffing and controlling. Just a change of tactic but in effect another type of trinity was formed and set roles were once again devised. Human behaviour is predictable to some extent we adapt but we will go back to the same patterns.
I must say though it was amazing fun those first few months and the groups how innovative we got was a testament to human adaptability.
In the real world, in books, in films, there is no aggro table, there are no instant healers, it's a much more dynamic style, you look after yourself and your team, with good positioning, crowd control, debuffs/buffs.
In reality would you rather take a non-lethal but still damaging attack, or dodge out of the way, would you rather take that sword to the chest, or throw sand in their eyes to disorient them and gain an advantage? Would you attempt to get everyone to attack you by running into the open, or would you run back into a killzone your comrades had set up with archers/guns?
Avoidance, Crowd control, Positioning - this is what guild wars was always about, and it's being improved upon in the sequel.
Other games of note include the amazing afformentioned Phantasy Star Online, heals were available but it was down to skill to avoid attacks most of the time the enemy would 1shot you.
Age of Conan, terrible launch, but some good ideas, the healing in that was very much the groups responsibility, the hots were not strong enough to tank any serious amount of damage, so the team had to stun and control mobs, run out of aoe, the healers had to help nuke adds (nukes even buffed your heals if specced).
It's very much in the book adventurer style, the trinity is a really dumb concept as soon as you take it out of gaming. I admit it can be very fun, but it comes at the price of dynamism.
People saying there will be bad supporters, yes there will be bad PLAYERS, but this always happens, you'll just have to up your game to compensate. They will most likely get bad participation scores until they improve.
To the people complaining about how easy the demo looked, it was artificially nerfed due to players only getting 45 mins with the game.
I'd wager the real shatterer fight could easily wipe a group that wasn't careful. In the videos the player often ended up on 5% life. and many died.
In the first fight with the earth elemental at level 1-2, without dodging the player would most likely have died.
Is it really so bad to have a quality combat system such as those present in action-rpgs, in an mmo?
I'm sick of mmos being so easy nobody even bothers to learn their class at all, because they don't need to.
wow.... just... wow ^^
"real world" as a refference for fantasy combat,
assumptions about difficulty stated as truth,
so much fail I don't even know where to begin.... meh you know what? not even gonna bother... complete waste of time
Age of Conan is indeed a nice example of how you can make the healers more interesting... even though you can spec for pretty powerful healing with at least BS and PoM it needs some good coordination to get high dmg fights done without losing the tank...
i have to ask though - what do you mean by "action RPG combat" ? something like, say, AoC? or more along the lines of Devil may Cry? or maybe Diablo?
AoC style I can agree with... that is in fact very fun and challenging, but the other 2.... ugh....
and about MMOs being too easy.... that's what I have been preaching all over this thread.... GW2 looks too easyA
After reading through this thread I had to respond to the part in red. This is not a personal attack so do not take it that way, but I love how you make it sound that the previous poster is a complete fool for his assumption that the game will be difficult. While the whole time throughout this thread you are making the assumption that the game is going to be easy without proof. In fact the Devs have said countless times that the demo was made easier so people can get a chance to see the game. Here is a video that Lead Designer Eric Flannum at 26 minutes 30 seconds states that the Char Character in the demo is way higher level than the mobs he is fighting. Which if you think about is logical to do for a demo, since the people have not leveled the character they are not going to know the skills or what they are doing. So it would make since to make it so the fights they get into are not on fair terms, so the people playing the demo do not spend half of their play time dead. I got a marvelous idea, how about everyone here try to have some integrity and make all of our posts live up to what we expect others to follow in theirs. So if we are going to say other people’s assumptions are not valid arguments, then we should not include our assumptions in posts and think everyone should see them as facts to be disproved.
Comments
So we are gonna have Zelda style bosses in an MMo with difrent phases and attacks wich you will have to forsee (or learn). I geuss i could like that. Im not too sure about evryone basicly doing whatever tho. people will mostly think about themselves and fail. Failure in gaming is high theses days, they cant make it too hard. just look at WoW ICC normal mode with 30% buff and the amount of people getting anywhere.... Pure failure.
I don't get your point how is that in anyway fundamentally different to the trinity your still doing dance dance revolution in the trinity your it just currently reolves around aggro. The difference is variation, I could doge that attack, have a prot spell put on me, take the attack and go into downed mode while some else tries to rez me. It's LESS of a pre set path than the trinity which is the point.....
From my experience with GW1, I think it would be a safe bet that no boss would ever use predictable patterns of attack, especially the smarter ones like the Grawl, centaurs, Hylek, Skritt, or dredge. These lesser races (according to teh lore) have the same level of intellegence and organization as tribal humans, and I would expect the AI to behave accordingly.
In the origianl, monsters would rarely use their skill in the same order everytime; sure they might become predicatable using their skill on recharge, but it never became patterned. So I would expect to see the AI advance from the first one to a point where some of the monsters could become scarry to fight against--I'm talking the elder dragons here... If Glint and Kuunavang in the first one were that intellegent and powerful (and they being only young dragons), we should see super AI for the elder dragons if we ever get to fight them.
So tieing this back to topic, the AI shouldn't be counted out and players will have to be proactive in their support and control to mitigate damage.
The fact that there is no healing class as such will hopefully mean that players will have to TALK to each other and plan ahead. Players will have to discuss tactics with each other and find out what each others strengths and weaknesses are, as they wont just automatically know simply because "he iz a priest".
Communicating with others....hmmm....a scary prospect indeed. I dunno. It almost makes Guildwars 2 seem a bit like a roleplaying game.
Wich seems really great but if you look at the monkey's todays MMO market brings, im scared of the failure wich will come with it.
I see this as exactly the opposite.
The removal of group roles leads typically to zerg style play, with less communication imo.
"man, i died.."
"stfu n00b, you should have healed yourself"
A fair point. However if certain players take the time to get to know each other and actually treat each other like travelling companions (like in a film or a real roleplaying game) then these situations can be avoided or minimised. The people that dont talk and put their trust in complete strangers who they know nothing about DESERVE to have their arses handed to them.
If a bunch of random players who dont know each other just hop into a big battle together, then they are skipping the "roleplaying" aspect of the game and therefore deserve to get whooped. Meanwhile a group of adventurers who are friends will work together and reap the rewards. Such is life.
Having played City of Villiains when it launched I can say both sides of this argument are correct. Initially people started trying to take the Thermal Corrupter thinking that is the healing build. Of course the thermal heals were dreadful as it had to be supported with the thermal shields that many thermal corrupters refused to take since they cannot cast them on themselves or since it drained the blue bar heavily they would not cast it even when they had it. Plus those shields lagged like heck. So groups were suddenly in an unenviable position of forcing themselves to rethink their playing technique so dark masterminds/corrupters and radiation corrupters debuffs were then employed before the mobs were attacked. Also the traps powers were useful for debuffing and the poison mastermind with its powerful single target debuffs for bosses. They also used controlling as another means to mitigate with dominators who had these forms of crowd control but as a secondary power which meant the better controls came in later levels.
Eventually a combination of shielding from bubbles , sonic shields and thermal shields coupled with heavy debuffing,plus using controls a form of CC became the way to get through insane missions. So when groups were formed the leaders would specifically request those builds and task those members with shielding ,debuffing and controlling. Just a change of tactic but in effect another type of trinity was formed and set roles were once again devised. Human behaviour is predictable to some extent we adapt but we will go back to the same patterns.
I must say though it was amazing fun those first few months and the groups how innovative we got was a testament to human adaptability.
After reading through this thread I had to respond to the part in red. This is not a personal attack so do not take it that way, but I love how you make it sound that the previous poster is a complete fool for his assumption that the game will be difficult. While the whole time throughout this thread you are making the assumption that the game is going to be easy without proof. In fact the Devs have said countless times that the demo was made easier so people can get a chance to see the game. Here is a video that Lead Designer Eric Flannum at 26 minutes 30 seconds states that the Char Character in the demo is way higher level than the mobs he is fighting. Which if you think about is logical to do for a demo, since the people have not leveled the character they are not going to know the skills or what they are doing. So it would make since to make it so the fights they get into are not on fair terms, so the people playing the demo do not spend half of their play time dead. I got a marvelous idea, how about everyone here try to have some integrity and make all of our posts live up to what we expect others to follow in theirs. So if we are going to say other people’s assumptions are not valid arguments, then we should not include our assumptions in posts and think everyone should see them as facts to be disproved.