Originally posted by Spiritof55 This will only serve to confuse and frustrate players. I see this "feature" being removed due to the amount of vile hate SONY will receive.
I laughed. I smashed my face into my desk too. But mainly I laughed.
The reasoning behind this is to balance the hardcore and the casual players? But that is still not the case.. A hardcore player with a static group of other hardcore players are going to take in alot more xp per hour then a casual player looking for a pick up group would.
And when does the xp timer start? When you first login, or when you get your first kill? Or is there some amount of predetermined xp per hour you can get? That means everyone is going to want to rush through any content to make sure you dont miss a minute of xping time.. And pay less attention to any of the story.
And it will also alienate anyone that doesnt have 'the best gear' since it will slow down a group's xp gain per hour, leaving some of the casual folks in the dust.
And if someone has to use the bathroom or make a phonecall while in a group? Can you imagine the emo-rage about losing xping time for the few minutes they are gone?
Overall I think this will cause an even bigger rift between casual and hardcore players instead of evening out the playing field.. and Alot more hostility inside of groups to anyone that is not uber elite for slowing them down.
If the surplus remains the way it was in beta the 8 hours "normal" EXP rate to hit the first rank of surplus is a very poor estimate. I was able to hit rank 1 surplus on a class in less than 30 minutes doing guild leves, and could regularly hit rank 1 surplus grinding for about an hour-hour an a half. I don't know how slow they think people are leveling up.
In beta, playing roughly 8 hours a day I managed to hit 20% surplus on 3 characters and 10% on another. I didn't have all classes I was playing to 14 at the time though, so I may very well have gotten some surplus on those too (surplus doesn't seem to start till level 14). Overall the surplus isn't too bad (certainly not worth cancelling your preorder over), but it's a very restrictive mechanic.
In phase 3 there was a bug where they had fixed guildleves to give more xp, but had not properly reduced the xp gain from kills. Because of this people were getting more experience than intended, which is why instead of 8 hours it was much less.
Originally posted by mmoguy43
SE = SOE clone
obvious
No I still don't see the connection at all having played games from both studios. SOE and its management do not care about their games as has been been proven repeatedly, SE obviously does (which is why you all whine about them). They just don't care about your opinion.
Final Fantasy XIV isn't really a game for me (as beautiful as it looks, I can't identify with any of the races as a roleplayer) but I do hope to see features like this gain some momentum in games that use an experience point-based advancement model, like most MMOs apart from EVE.
Favorites: EQ, EVE | Playing: None. Mostly VR and strategy | Anticipating: CU, Pantheon
Final Fantasy XIV isn't really a game for me (as beautiful as it looks, I can't identify with any of the races as a roleplayer) but I do hope to see features like this gain some momentum in games that use an experience point-based advancement model, like most MMOs apart from EVE.
I felt the same way as you before, but changed my mind after looking at some trailers and screenshots. There are 2 races that appeal to me now which are the Hyur (the mountain type / the Midlanders) and maybe the bigger Roegadyn.
Play: - Played: FFXIV, WAR, Allods, Aion, AoC, DDO, EQ2, GW, Lotro, Tabula Rasa, Vanguard, WoW
Because its a game marketed so that it never end and takes you a long time to do so that you will play for mouths and mouths so they can charge you money they cant support such a good game with no income
I don't mind the system but I am not a hardcore gamer. I can see how a hardcore gamer would hate the system as it sounds because it sounds like they are getting the short end of the stick.
Currently Playing: FFXIV:ARR Looking Forward to: Wildstar
Because its a game marketed so that it never end and takes you a long time to do so that you will play for mouths and mouths so they can charge you money they cant support such a good game with no income
Hmm yup, exactly. But isnt that the point of every MMO out there, to get players to keep playing and paying? This one just wants you to enjoy the Journey and not the end of it. So your finally in agreement there is no difference, just one wants you to play the game at all levels and not just at the cap like others.
Does that make it worse? In my opion no, that makes it better. Any fool can run from point A to point Z, but not all of them can appreciate point B through Y along the way. And to be honest, some games out there dont even have a B through Y to enjoy anymore, and that itself is a shame.
(DISCLAIMER - The use of the word YOU in the above post is not directed at any one person in particular, but towards those who fall into the category itself - there is no personal attack here, neither intentional nor implied.)
You linked the the article from the 24th, but did you bother to read the two articles posted the next day? The second one in particular is interesting, as it has the original Japanese text of the message posted to the ffivcore messageboards. Admittedly the English translation below the article should say "8 hours worth" instead of "8 hours", or in other words "the predetermined amount of XP Square thinks a person would be able to get in eight hours", but in the comments this is clarified and discussed.
Did Sankaku troll? Or did they post the information available to them at the time, subsequently clarifying and posting more relevant information as it came out? Funny that the entire first part of your article is based on three-day-old information that was rebuked and clarified the very next day. And also funny that you mention evaluating your sources, but your only source seems to be a translated version of information posted to Sankaku 48 hours ago.
I linked to about 4 or 5 of my 12+ sources in the article, some of which had been posted on Thursday (when I wrote the column).
My point about Sankaku is that they posted information without fully researching the issue, made a very wide-spread claim (one hour per day), and got the community into a panic over it. It's just as much the community's fault for buying into Sankaku's initial post as it is Sankaku, as well as Square Enix for not having explained the system to begin with.
The first part of the article was detailing and chronicling the panic caused by the initial article and misinformation spreading around the internet (Sankaku wasn't the one who said it was account-wide, for instance). Not everyone pays attention to these dramas as they unfold; I merely gave background as to where it started. Square Enix wouldn't have likely detailed the system this week if it hadn't been for the hysteria.
Great to finally get some more clarification on the whole Fatigue System.
But it still sounds ridiculous. I'm far from being a hardcore player; school and work do a bang-up fob of eating my time - but why should it matter if hardcore and casual players aren't the same lvl? If someone wants to start the game and make a mad rush to lvl cap in under a month? Bully for them, I'll take my sweet time. I don't fancy the idea that because I put less time into a game, that people who have more time ought to be held back for my benefit. I'm a big girl, I don't need a bunch of Fairness Police telling others to wait up for my slow self. Let them play their way, and I'll play it my way.
It's as was mentioned in the article: the perception of "reward vs punishment"
Also, I'd like to point out that no, I didn't get into the Surplus system either. The best explanation from the system comes from Square Enix themselves. To be honest, it still isn't a great explanation, it still leaves a lot of confusion, but they also have the "it's beta" card working for them - they can change it as much as they want right now, and leave a final explanation for release. And yes, it should have been explained early on, but it's also something that wasn't even possible to encounter until this current beta phase.
As some picked up on, the system really works out the same way an experience curve or rested bonus system does, but in reverse. The psychology of how people interpret the system, however, is clear: people are feeling punished for playing as much as they want, rather than seeing a) the benefits of the system and b) seeing that it would be the same numbers wise in a reversed system. Same thing WoW went through in beta.
Ultimately, I think it's numbers - and here I mean figures in dollars and subscribers - that's going to tell Squeenix which way it should go with this system.
I find it impossible to judge one way or another without having played the game in a normal state (no bugs or bonuses with experience as is the case in Beta 3) to see if the system is actually terrible or 'punishing' in any way; after all, as a gamer myself, I can go anywhere from a half hour a day to five-six hours a day depending on my mood and what I have to do.
However, there's plenty of fans who will tug with their emotional strings even though they haven't seen more of the game than a couple of trailers and word of mouth from beta players. Misinformation, fear their money or time will be wasted, fear they'll be "told what to do" by the system, are all driving fans into a frenzy right now. Square certainly has a bit of an issue on their hands as they try to work the system out.
I've been in the beta since the start and I've actually found the game to be rather enjoyable pre-phase 3. I also understand the "reasoning" behind the limitations... However, with that said, I simply won't be buying the game.
Much like everyone else, it's just not worth my time or money to play a game where I'm limited by other's lack of free time. I'm a college student, I tend to end up with an abundance of free time in between studies and having a limitation on my fun isn't something I'd enjoy. The thing I love about MMOs is the freedom to log on at any time and progress my character and have fun till I want to stop. I don't need to be penalized for some child's inability to separate a video game from real life. If I have a weekday off and want to play a video game for 20 hours straight, that's what I'll do. We don't need someone to hold our hands.
The game is fun, but it's not good enough to be worth it with such a limitation. Other's may enjoy the system, and that's fine, but I personally don't like the system.
well at this time i am not sure how i feel about this system, but se would not want to kill the game before it even launched so , i have my two ce ordered and will hope for the best
It's not going to affect my preorder, but the S-E's explanation really does come across as a grossly convoluted way to probably accomplish very little of what they claim it will. As already pointed out, this may keep the truly hardcore from spending too much time in FFIV, but they've likely got plenty of other games to play once they log off. If they're trying to encourage multi-classing, people will figure it out soon enough anyway, and a combination of practicality and peer-pressure will do the rest.
If they really wanted to narrow the gap between casuals and hardcores a little, just give everyone a token that doubles efforts for an hour - 1 issued/day, maximum 1 in possession at a time, soulbound. Or something along those lines. Minimal complexity, and it feels a lot more like a carrot than a stick.
A Modest Proposal for MMORPGs: That the means of progression would not be mutually exclusive from the means of enjoyment.
Turn it round. Reduce the amount of normal xp you get, so whatever you get now -10%. Then add 10% to the xp of players who play a second class after a period of time. Carrot not stick gives the illusion a good system.
The problem is that we are not certain of why SE are doing this, so its hard to know what alternative would be better.
Well I don't see FF14 lasting more than a few months with the new system. $15 a month with limited game play is just going to ruin everything for a lot of people. They either need to knock down the month fee quite a bit or just get rid of the fatigue system all together. Kinda glad now that I didn't pre-order.
As the contributer indicated (and I noted in a recent post on the topic), the system is not new and exists in (somewhat) comparable forms across many modern MMOs in the form of "rest" experience. However, this is a perception and presentation issue. The way it was presented was in the negative ("loss", "fatigue", etc) as opposed to the positive ("bonus", "rest", etc).
Players who think they will achieve a bonus by not playing are happy. Hardcore players rarely accumulate much if any, and almost always sit at the "baseline" amount of XP gain, so they aren't impacted either way.
Players who will be impacted by playing too much and be hit by a "loss" - even a casual player who has extra time one week - will of course not like the idea. That really opens up the entire playerbase to feeling they "may" be impacted at some point. Bad show here.
What I really don't understand is why they woudl go so far as to zero returns. Diminishing returns to a certain point makes sense, as it can be the clear reverse of the "rest" system, but I think the current implementation - even if the hour threshholds are so rediculous (such as having to play 80 hours a week to obtain enough xp to hit the "zero" gains point) - is a form of negative control and should be modified immediately.
If they do end up dropping this fatigue system, then they'll just lower overall EXP by 20% or something.
There are far too many people getting upset with this system.
_____________________ Played: Aion, All Points Bulletin, ArchLord, Champions Online, City of Heroes, Dark Age of Camelot, EVE Online, EverQuest II, Fallen Earth, Fantasy Earth Zero, Guild Wars, Guild Wars Factions, Guild Wars Nightfall, Lineage 2, Lord of the Rings Online, Metin 2, MU Online, RF Online, Ryzom, Silkroad Online, Star Trek Online, Star Wars Galaxies, The Chronicles of Spellborn and Vanguard: Saga of Heroes
If they do end up dropping this fatigue system, then they'll just lower overall EXP by 20% or something.
There are far too many people getting upset with this system.
It's simply the way of the world, if you don't like a game there are others. However, for players such as myself the thoughtful systems underpinning FF XIV are alright and will make a great gaming experience long-term.
Well I don't see FF14 lasting more than a few months with the new system. $15 a month with limited game play is just going to ruin everything for a lot of people. They either need to knock down the month fee quite a bit or just get rid of the fatigue system all together. Kinda glad now that I didn't pre-order.
Well look at it like this whther you like the system or not there will be one. Its all about how you look at it in the long run. But all the complaining will get SE to rethink the decision a lil I think but for all you know now they may just kill the exp gain low level and put in place a rested system just making it a game with a very hard grind to end game but no restriants. Either way i do not see them letting you get to end game as fast as you can because likely there isnt much if anything there yet and that worse than anything in an mmo not content endgame. With all the remarks from veteran mmo players I thought they would figure that out by now rushing to endgame = Bad.
Turn it round. Reduce the amount of normal xp you get, so whatever you get now -10%. Then add 10% to the xp of players who play a second class after a period of time. Carrot not stick gives the illusion a good system.
The problem is that we are not certain of why SE are doing this, so its hard to know what alternative would be better.
I was under the impressoin they pretty much stated there is no end game to be had. That would be reason enough, and we've seen it over and over and over again. These companies push out games that have no end game and naively think that somehow they will be the first company not go get those few lines that move through the internet like a firestorm. I am max level in xyz game and there is nothing to do. I really don't care where gamers fall on this rush debate, the fact is it very bad to have people reach your end game content and not have any end game content, and I am not all supportive of them trying to fix the lack of end game content by trying to ensure no one reaches end game.
parrotpholk-Because we all know the miracle patch fairy shows up the night before release and sprinkles magic dust on the server to make it allllll better.
Comments
I laughed. I smashed my face into my desk too. But mainly I laughed.
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The reasoning behind this is to balance the hardcore and the casual players? But that is still not the case.. A hardcore player with a static group of other hardcore players are going to take in alot more xp per hour then a casual player looking for a pick up group would.
And when does the xp timer start? When you first login, or when you get your first kill? Or is there some amount of predetermined xp per hour you can get? That means everyone is going to want to rush through any content to make sure you dont miss a minute of xping time.. And pay less attention to any of the story.
And it will also alienate anyone that doesnt have 'the best gear' since it will slow down a group's xp gain per hour, leaving some of the casual folks in the dust.
And if someone has to use the bathroom or make a phonecall while in a group? Can you imagine the emo-rage about losing xping time for the few minutes they are gone?
Overall I think this will cause an even bigger rift between casual and hardcore players instead of evening out the playing field.. and Alot more hostility inside of groups to anyone that is not uber elite for slowing them down.
In phase 3 there was a bug where they had fixed guildleves to give more xp, but had not properly reduced the xp gain from kills. Because of this people were getting more experience than intended, which is why instead of 8 hours it was much less.
No I still don't see the connection at all having played games from both studios. SOE and its management do not care about their games as has been been proven repeatedly, SE obviously does (which is why you all whine about them). They just don't care about your opinion.
http://xivpads.com/?1595680
http://guildwork.com/users/murugan
^ it's this one
If the post on the Beta board is right it's about 9000 per threshold.
So that's 72000 xp before you see the surplus/fatigue thing kick in.
So your next 9000xp you'd only get about 8100xp from it... and it just goes down from there.
Final Fantasy XIV isn't really a game for me (as beautiful as it looks, I can't identify with any of the races as a roleplayer) but I do hope to see features like this gain some momentum in games that use an experience point-based advancement model, like most MMOs apart from EVE.
I felt the same way as you before, but changed my mind after looking at some trailers and screenshots. There are 2 races that appeal to me now which are the Hyur (the mountain type / the Midlanders) and maybe the bigger Roegadyn.
Play: -
Played: FFXIV, WAR, Allods, Aion, AoC, DDO, EQ2, GW, Lotro, Tabula Rasa, Vanguard, WoW
Because its a game marketed so that it never end and takes you a long time to do so that you will play for mouths and mouths so they can charge you money they cant support such a good game with no income
ben iz real
Thank you for the well thought out article Jaime!
I don't mind the system but I am not a hardcore gamer. I can see how a hardcore gamer would hate the system as it sounds because it sounds like they are getting the short end of the stick.
Currently Playing: FFXIV:ARR
Looking Forward to: Wildstar
Hmm yup, exactly. But isnt that the point of every MMO out there, to get players to keep playing and paying? This one just wants you to enjoy the Journey and not the end of it. So your finally in agreement there is no difference, just one wants you to play the game at all levels and not just at the cap like others.
Does that make it worse? In my opion no, that makes it better. Any fool can run from point A to point Z, but not all of them can appreciate point B through Y along the way. And to be honest, some games out there dont even have a B through Y to enjoy anymore, and that itself is a shame.
(DISCLAIMER - The use of the word YOU in the above post is not directed at any one person in particular, but towards those who fall into the category itself - there is no personal attack here, neither intentional nor implied.)
I linked to about 4 or 5 of my 12+ sources in the article, some of which had been posted on Thursday (when I wrote the column).
My point about Sankaku is that they posted information without fully researching the issue, made a very wide-spread claim (one hour per day), and got the community into a panic over it. It's just as much the community's fault for buying into Sankaku's initial post as it is Sankaku, as well as Square Enix for not having explained the system to begin with.
The first part of the article was detailing and chronicling the panic caused by the initial article and misinformation spreading around the internet (Sankaku wasn't the one who said it was account-wide, for instance). Not everyone pays attention to these dramas as they unfold; I merely gave background as to where it started. Square Enix wouldn't have likely detailed the system this week if it hadn't been for the hysteria.
Great to finally get some more clarification on the whole Fatigue System.
But it still sounds ridiculous. I'm far from being a hardcore player; school and work do a bang-up fob of eating my time - but why should it matter if hardcore and casual players aren't the same lvl? If someone wants to start the game and make a mad rush to lvl cap in under a month? Bully for them, I'll take my sweet time. I don't fancy the idea that because I put less time into a game, that people who have more time ought to be held back for my benefit. I'm a big girl, I don't need a bunch of Fairness Police telling others to wait up for my slow self. Let them play their way, and I'll play it my way.
It's as was mentioned in the article: the perception of "reward vs punishment"
Also, I'd like to point out that no, I didn't get into the Surplus system either. The best explanation from the system comes from Square Enix themselves. To be honest, it still isn't a great explanation, it still leaves a lot of confusion, but they also have the "it's beta" card working for them - they can change it as much as they want right now, and leave a final explanation for release. And yes, it should have been explained early on, but it's also something that wasn't even possible to encounter until this current beta phase.
As some picked up on, the system really works out the same way an experience curve or rested bonus system does, but in reverse. The psychology of how people interpret the system, however, is clear: people are feeling punished for playing as much as they want, rather than seeing a) the benefits of the system and b) seeing that it would be the same numbers wise in a reversed system. Same thing WoW went through in beta.
Ultimately, I think it's numbers - and here I mean figures in dollars and subscribers - that's going to tell Squeenix which way it should go with this system.
I find it impossible to judge one way or another without having played the game in a normal state (no bugs or bonuses with experience as is the case in Beta 3) to see if the system is actually terrible or 'punishing' in any way; after all, as a gamer myself, I can go anywhere from a half hour a day to five-six hours a day depending on my mood and what I have to do.
However, there's plenty of fans who will tug with their emotional strings even though they haven't seen more of the game than a couple of trailers and word of mouth from beta players. Misinformation, fear their money or time will be wasted, fear they'll be "told what to do" by the system, are all driving fans into a frenzy right now. Square certainly has a bit of an issue on their hands as they try to work the system out.
I've been in the beta since the start and I've actually found the game to be rather enjoyable pre-phase 3. I also understand the "reasoning" behind the limitations... However, with that said, I simply won't be buying the game.
Much like everyone else, it's just not worth my time or money to play a game where I'm limited by other's lack of free time. I'm a college student, I tend to end up with an abundance of free time in between studies and having a limitation on my fun isn't something I'd enjoy. The thing I love about MMOs is the freedom to log on at any time and progress my character and have fun till I want to stop. I don't need to be penalized for some child's inability to separate a video game from real life. If I have a weekday off and want to play a video game for 20 hours straight, that's what I'll do. We don't need someone to hold our hands.
The game is fun, but it's not good enough to be worth it with such a limitation. Other's may enjoy the system, and that's fine, but I personally don't like the system.
well at this time i am not sure how i feel about this system, but se would not want to kill the game before it even launched so , i have my two ce ordered and will hope for the best
It's not going to affect my preorder, but the S-E's explanation really does come across as a grossly convoluted way to probably accomplish very little of what they claim it will. As already pointed out, this may keep the truly hardcore from spending too much time in FFIV, but they've likely got plenty of other games to play once they log off. If they're trying to encourage multi-classing, people will figure it out soon enough anyway, and a combination of practicality and peer-pressure will do the rest.
If they really wanted to narrow the gap between casuals and hardcores a little, just give everyone a token that doubles efforts for an hour - 1 issued/day, maximum 1 in possession at a time, soulbound. Or something along those lines. Minimal complexity, and it feels a lot more like a carrot than a stick.
A Modest Proposal for MMORPGs:
That the means of progression would not be mutually exclusive from the means of enjoyment.
Enforcing a certain playstyle upon a customer, and thus giving him the feeling he is being punished, is a bad idea.
Currently playing browser games. Waiting for Albion Online, Citadel of Sorcery and Camelot Unchained.
Played: almost all MMO pre 2007
Turn it round. Reduce the amount of normal xp you get, so whatever you get now -10%. Then add 10% to the xp of players who play a second class after a period of time. Carrot not stick gives the illusion a good system.
The problem is that we are not certain of why SE are doing this, so its hard to know what alternative would be better.
Well I don't see FF14 lasting more than a few months with the new system. $15 a month with limited game play is just going to ruin everything for a lot of people. They either need to knock down the month fee quite a bit or just get rid of the fatigue system all together. Kinda glad now that I didn't pre-order.
As the contributer indicated (and I noted in a recent post on the topic), the system is not new and exists in (somewhat) comparable forms across many modern MMOs in the form of "rest" experience. However, this is a perception and presentation issue. The way it was presented was in the negative ("loss", "fatigue", etc) as opposed to the positive ("bonus", "rest", etc).
Players who think they will achieve a bonus by not playing are happy. Hardcore players rarely accumulate much if any, and almost always sit at the "baseline" amount of XP gain, so they aren't impacted either way.
Players who will be impacted by playing too much and be hit by a "loss" - even a casual player who has extra time one week - will of course not like the idea. That really opens up the entire playerbase to feeling they "may" be impacted at some point. Bad show here.
What I really don't understand is why they woudl go so far as to zero returns. Diminishing returns to a certain point makes sense, as it can be the clear reverse of the "rest" system, but I think the current implementation - even if the hour threshholds are so rediculous (such as having to play 80 hours a week to obtain enough xp to hit the "zero" gains point) - is a form of negative control and should be modified immediately.
If they do end up dropping this fatigue system, then they'll just lower overall EXP by 20% or something.
There are far too many people getting upset with this system.
_____________________
Played:
Aion, All Points Bulletin, ArchLord, Champions Online, City of Heroes, Dark Age of Camelot, EVE Online, EverQuest II, Fallen Earth, Fantasy Earth Zero, Guild Wars, Guild Wars Factions, Guild Wars Nightfall, Lineage 2, Lord of the Rings Online, Metin 2, MU Online, RF Online, Ryzom, Silkroad Online, Star Trek Online, Star Wars Galaxies, The Chronicles of Spellborn and Vanguard: Saga of Heroes
Awaiting: FFXIV and SW:TOR
It's simply the way of the world, if you don't like a game there are others. However, for players such as myself the thoughtful systems underpinning FF XIV are alright and will make a great gaming experience long-term.It's 12.99
Well look at it like this whther you like the system or not there will be one. Its all about how you look at it in the long run. But all the complaining will get SE to rethink the decision a lil I think but for all you know now they may just kill the exp gain low level and put in place a rested system just making it a game with a very hard grind to end game but no restriants. Either way i do not see them letting you get to end game as fast as you can because likely there isnt much if anything there yet and that worse than anything in an mmo not content endgame. With all the remarks from veteran mmo players I thought they would figure that out by now rushing to endgame = Bad.
I was under the impressoin they pretty much stated there is no end game to be had. That would be reason enough, and we've seen it over and over and over again. These companies push out games that have no end game and naively think that somehow they will be the first company not go get those few lines that move through the internet like a firestorm. I am max level in xyz game and there is nothing to do. I really don't care where gamers fall on this rush debate, the fact is it very bad to have people reach your end game content and not have any end game content, and I am not all supportive of them trying to fix the lack of end game content by trying to ensure no one reaches end game.
parrotpholk-Because we all know the miracle patch fairy shows up the night before release and sprinkles magic dust on the server to make it allllll better.