I think the reason people are getting so mad is that they dont have the OPTION to grind the hell outta this game and reach max fast. The fact that it could take forever isnt the main issue. People like choices, and dont want to be restricted or told what to do. I would like being able to do that, although real life stuff can and usually does get in the way.
Another reason is just that the kids that play wow are mad this game doesnt hand you epic loot with little to no effort. What's that? You wanna log in and get purples within 30min? Ok, complain long enough and we'll give it to you so we dont lose your precious sub. Oh, that's not enough? Sorry, we'll nerf the boss so its even easier for you cuz you wiped twice, with a fail group. The wow kids just want everything handed to them. It's generation Y, that's just how they are, gamers or not.
I will be happy to earn my own gear/loot in this game, and if I dont have it, its my own fault. I'm not gonna cry on forums and say the game is terrible and broken until they change it and give me free epics.
I honestly think its brilliant. It has nothing to do with giving bonuses or stopping people from playing.
You can still farm, and most people will see little effect. If you are within the curve...most won't really care. What it does.. what makes it great...it SLOWS the curve down so you don't have max level people in the first week griping about how there is no content. It forces you to actually see the content and get there a little slower without having to FORCE a GRIND.
Also, if people aren't on non-stop...lag is improved and server stability is better..which are complaints in EVERY MMO release. I play a ton, and regardless of exp...I will be on. What does it matter if I play at LEVEL CAP with NO EXP vs on my WAY UP? Most games if you pvp along the way, you get little to no exp, and yet I always do. My friends consider me a fast leveler, and I spend time crafting.
People just hate control. Well, sorry. You pay ONE subscription (some a few more...adicts), but you do not own the company, and they want to maximize profit. If enough people sign up to it and play...thats all they need. Personally, as long as I have someone to play with, and some sense of accomplishment, I don't care what level I am.
Lastly, the author made a great point. Its the same as rested xp, just psychologically people treat it like a punishment. In wow for instance, most do not play at full rested to maximize returns, and noone complains that they are getting 50% possible exp. Also, most of the play time is played at max level, where you gain ZERO xp. But we don't complain about that either. People gripe too much, instead of looking at the positives.
People gripe too much, instead of looking at the positives.
I think people gripe too much about this issue which in turn takes attention away from 20 other issues that i think are more important. Fatigue is the least of my concerns.
Okay for the person who was complaining about paying monthly and not getting a months worth of gameplay. Guess what your paying every month to play! Your not paying for 30 days worth of gameplay my friend. Also I think this system is great, I like to enjoy everthing it has to offer if you are the type that doesnt like to craft or lvl alts and just like to reach cap and get end game gear go play WoW or something. This game is taking a risky and big step for mmorpgs and i like it. Good work Square Enix!!!
I wish we knew the age of the people who are "up in arms" over the fatigue system. It really isn't that big of a deal. Just play the game as it is designed and enjoy the ride kids...
I really like this system actually, it sounds really interesting. It certainly will promote me to play multiple classes, which I always had trouble doing in FFXI. I think this is actually a step in a positive direction, thanks for clarifying this for everyone.
That is exactly what they want. They are going to have 18 classes at launch which include crafting classes and they do not want you just playing 1 class making their hard work on the other classes all for nothing. Also making you take longer to level obviously bring in more monthly fees. They aren't dumb despite what some think.
Its not healthy to play 4-5 hours per day. So why should MMO games promote such gamestyle? Its about time I would say.
Not saying playing that much is healthy, but lets put it into perspective. A lot of people go to work, come home, and veg out in some fashion. Why single out MMO games?
Bravo, finally a game that recognizes that some people have a life outside of gaming.
If you are gaming 5+ hours a day and are not getting paid, you may want to rethink your life and I'm not saying that to be a jerk or create controversy. It's simply that, unless you have tons of time to waste for whatever reason, chances are something in your life is taking a backseat when you are spending that much time gaming and it can't be healthy. Finally a game that recognizes that and is moving in the opposite direction of encouraging people to play for countless hours.
Bravo, finally a game that recognizes that some people have a life outside of gaming.
If you are gaming 5+ hours a day and are not getting paid, you may want to rethink your life and I'm not saying that to be a jerk or create controversy. It's simply that, unless you have tons of time to waste for whatever reason, chances are something in your life is taking a backseat when you are spending that much time gaming and it can't be healthy. Finally a game that recognizes that and is moving in the opposite direction of encouraging people to play for countless hours.
Again, this feature/system will not promote less play time. All you have to do is switch to a different job and level again! There will still be alt characters to level too.
Why do people care so much how many hours other people spend on a game? Are you really that bored with your own life that you time how much you think others should play for a service they paid for. This system is simply to hide the fact that the game lacks content and some people are stupid enough to defend it.
Previous post was an error and don't know how to edit.
I already posted this on FFXIV Core but I figure I'll just put my thoughts on it here just to see reactions to it. >.> Cause I'm a glutton for punishment like that I suppose....
--- And so began the long explanation and rant --
The way I look at it the previous 'hard-core' is FFXIV's casual, just achieved in a shorter amount of time.
Is it bad that I REALLY like the idea of this system?
If anything it makes hardcore players even more hardcore, and casual players able to play the content they want within a reasonable time frame without feeling like they are stuck in a never ending grindfest. If you don't follow my line of thinking let me explain myself.
For hardcore players... Me. It gives me a chance to directly compete with other hardcore players while still being able to play with casuals when I want. If I hit the threshold by gaining exp that quickly on my main and say get my Physical level up to 10 (for the sake of example) on the first day. I still have loads of time to expand myself horizontally. If you look at physical level as a vertical axis and skill/class level as a horizontal axis this system is absolutely amazing. If I game for say 12 hours a day I STILL won't be able to catch every single class up to my main. Maybe 5 of them... But by doing this it makes you have to look at your skill/class level as an RTS where you have a set amount of time before something becomes available to you. So you are building up your one man army. Using this system being hardcore actually means something because the more hardcore you are the easier it will be for you to get a party. You will be able to constantly replace the players that leave (ie. casuals). So say I'm playing my lancer and I've already hit the physical level I can keep playing it for the skill/class level. If our pugilist leaves I can switch and take their place being a hardcore player because chances are I still have a ways to go on reaching my max for my pugilist AND by switching I get benefits by now getting skill/class level increases that will better my lancer when I decide to go back and play it. Only hardcore players will be able to effectively solo the higher they get because they have the means to. So hardcore players once they reach the vertical limit they still get to expand horizontally. So instead of this game being a race to max level it's more of a race to max skill level which is impossible to do without proper planning and playing close to 20+ hours a day. And it will become even harder as they add more classes and skills. Hardcore players will be making more gil because they will have more crafting options and not have to pay as much to get the other materials required because they will be high enough to gather it themselves. On top of that because of the way the game is set up if you are a hardcore player you can catch up to other hardcore players especially if they are only focusing on hitting max vertical. So you will be richer, stronger, and a better party choice if you are hardcore vertically and horizontally. Hardcore players will know the best areas for everything, will have the best equipment first, will be able to run instances faster, and be able to enjoy the fluff of the game more because they will be able to level up their classes faster with each class they max out.
And by my personal accounts of hardcore I will be playing the game for 6-8 hours M-R and maybe as much as 12 hours on F. For weekends I could probably get in a good 24-30 all together as long as nothing serious comes up. Which would put me in the ideal range of having the best kind of character one who is vertically and horizontally maxed at all times with the most money. The only problem I see with this is that I might not have enough things to spend gil on. I mean I guess I could buy lots of dye and make tons of pretty outfits >.>
For casuals, like my sister who HATE grinding and just killing things for no point. (animal lover) this system is ideal. I could re-run content with her and anyone she's with and just fill in whatever role they didn't have. (because being hard-core my character would be amazing and have an amazing color scheme going on) She can make enough vertical progress and horizontal progress because she would only be playing 1 class and dabbling in the others. She would never hit the max except maybe on weekends on rare occasions. Since the first day of the week is Sunday she could hit the max vertical and max class/skill level on Sunday (if she wanted to be hardcore for the weekend) and then finish feeling satisfied. Then comes the week with school, work, socializing, or even in-game socializing, shopping, etc. She will have rolled back enough of her penalty to keep playing at her max. Since casual players probably won't be playing more than 4-5 hours in a day she'd always be able to make enough progress vertically with her class and physical level to still always have people to play with. Then the end of the week would come, Saturday, and she gets to max out again. The game's physical level limit would reset for Sunday and she could start all over again.
As they stated they miscalculated and gave away too much exp which is the only reason this would hurt people. Because it would make the game too easy for Casuals, and make horizontal development not worth it for hard-core players.
Moreover in my opinion you aren't very hardcore if you only do well at the stuff you like. Anyone can reach the max level in any mmo if they are playing the class easiest to them however it takes real dedication and a 'hard-core' attitude to be amazing in everything. If anything this game just proves how not hard-core the old hardcore was. I.E. most mmo's where you are only one class. In FFXIV the hardcore people are now trying to reach the end expending as much effort as it would take a normal hardcore player on a normal mmo to reach max level on 8 characters.
Most importantly, since SE determined the thresholds from grinding an hour you really should have a hard time hitting that for 8 hours straight. Especially with the travel system, people are going to want to save their anima points for IMPORTANT things which means you will be traveling, selling, grouping up, basically spending your time doing all these things for about as much time as you would grinding if not more. So in theory you really shouldn't hit that threshold unless you were farming, botting, etc. Because you'd want to empty your inventory, change your gear, and/or move to a new area. So, as I stated previously... you really should hit the threshold in a way that would hold you back from any sort of hardcore gameplay mechanics if the exp given is adjusted appropriately.
Basically all you guys (who are complaining) are just saying. "STUPID SE YOU GAVE ME TOO MUCH EXP! TAKE IT BACK SO I CAN EARN IT APPROPRIATELY!" That's all you are basically saying. They heard you, and are adjusting it accordingly. So stop QQing. And on a last note, not to be snarky, but.... I hate whiners, drama queens, and basically people who think their opinions matter. So if you are not playing the game it's kind of a good thing for those of us who are patient and want to wait things out and see the changes first hand and take part of developing the FFXIV community. A lot of things are going to be established within the first couple months of gameplay and they are well worth the glitches, problems, and drama that come with an initial game release. I personally, wouldn't pass that up for anything in the world because I know this game will be around for a long time, just like FFXI.
Yes, I did get into a bit of a rage by the end. But seriously the issue isn't that serious... All SE has to do is lower the EXP returns for work and you wouldn't notice the difference. So enjoy the break they give you to do other things, like enjoy the cutscenes for starters... or actually take part in the community.
And no this is not me just bending over and taking whatever SE sends my way, as I've heard people say repeatedly. (some people actually LIKE it that way) My views and opinions about it are based on the fact that I am playing FFXIV. FFXIV is what the developers say it is, not what I tell them it should be. If I wanted to play a game where I can grind one character all I want there are hundreds of games I can go to find that. It doesn't HAVE to be FFXIV that provides that for me. It's like me going to the Apple store and being pissed they don't sell Apple's that I can eat. The Apple Store sells Apple products and a grocery store sells apples that I can eat. I'm going to play FFXIV because I want to play what they are providing. When I decide that I don't want anymore I'll stop and play something else that has what I want.
It's not something I need to yell or get upset about. That's the way it is. You don't go to law school to be a doctor. If your mother no longer cooks your mac and cheese the way you want it, and your wife does... why would you still go to your Mom's house to eat mac and cheese?
--- and then it died ---
So basically... that's how I feel about it. Most of you don't care, but I figure if you guys can waste internet space QQ, I can waste internet space Wh00t Wh00t'ing.
Cheers.
P.S. for those of you who feel this is to long, and didn't read it... that's probably why you will have problems with this game anyway. Because you can't read instructions. Someone will come along that is nice enough to translate this for you....
You wanted my time, so I played you. You wanted my money, I forked it over. You wanted my soul, I gave it willingly. Not to complain... but when do I get my end of the deal? And no, I don't want your flippin' carrot. If you can't do that give me back my youth and keep the change. Why don't you try chasing your own damn carrot for a change? I'll gladly hold the stick.
There has been a lot of people trying to make positive arguments for this type of system. I would like to address a few of them.
One argument states that Square Enix is trying to equalize the casual and hardcore players, and so that hardcore players do not have an unfair advantage by leveling way faster than casual players.
To those people I ask you this: What will you tell the PS3 players when they finally be able to play FFXIV next year as oppose to this year when only PC owners will be able to play FFXIV? They will see the pc players and see they have max level characters or so, while they themselves are just starting out. Will you say " Tough, should have gotten a PC"? This practice totally contradicts this supposed principle that Square Enix is doing and makes them look like hypocrites, not to mention idiots.
Another argument that was put forth was that it is not healthy for players to play for more than 2 hours a day or whatever. Well let me address this one. I read a few posts of people who have medical conditions and they need to stay home because of said medical conditions, and they use video games to keep their mind sharp. These same people have lots of time on their hands and their doctors recommend them to play games. This is not including the Attention Deficit Disorder (ADD) field for which studies have shown that ADD patients have easier time focusing on video games and they are used as treatment for these patients. To those who said that players who play more than 2 hours a day to get a life: will you tell these people to "get a life" also? If you are cruel and inconsiderate I guess you would.
There was another part to this type of argument. They were stating that Square Enix is trying to control "video game addiction" by controlling how many hours a person can play. Isn't making a video game counter-productive to this goal? If they wanted to control video game addiction, they would achieve better results doing all of the following: A) Not releasing FFXIV Taking FFIX offline and C) Disbanding their company that only makes video games, which in their case is the main component that causes this "video game addiction".
Yet another argument that I found hilarious was the argument stating that this will limit gold farmers. This has been explained already earlier in this thread, but I will reiterate quickly: Gold farmers dont care about XP, yes they will level slower, but this system does not prevent them from unlimited farming and therefore they can keep getting gold and items from monsters their own level.
Im sure there are many more arguments that have no basis but I am tired of typing now and I think what has been stated is enough to show that this system is not a good productive idea to implement into a game.
There has been a lot of people trying to make positive arguments for this type of system. I would like to address a few of them.
One argument states that Square Enix is trying to equalize the casual and hardcore players, and so that hardcore players do not have an unfair advantage by leveling way faster than casual players.
To those people I ask you this: What will you tell the PS3 players when they finally be able to play FFXIV next year as oppose to this year when only PC owners will be able to play FFXIV? They will see the pc players and see they have max level characters or so, while they themselves are just starting out. Will you say " Tough, should have gotten a PC"? These practice totally contradicts this supposed principle that Square Enix is doing and makes them look like hypocrites, not to mention idiots.
Another argument that was put forth was that it is not healthy for players to play for more than 2 hours a day or whatever. Well let me address this one. I read a few posts of people who have medical conditions and they need to stay home because of said medical conditions, and they use video games to keep their mind sharp. These same people have lots of time on their hands and their doctors recommend them to play games. This is not including the Attention Deficit Disorder (ADD) field for which studies have shown that ADD patients have easier time focusing on video games and they are used as treatment for these patients. To those who said that players who play more than 2 hours a day to get a life: will you tell these people to "get a life" also? If you are cruel and inconsiderate I guess you would.
There was another part to this type of argument. They were stating that Square Enix is trying to control "video game addiction" by controlling how many hours a person can play. Isn't making a video game counter-productive to this goal? If they wanted to control video game addiction, they would achieve better results doing all of the following: A) Not releasing FFXIV Taking FFIX offline and C) Disbanding their company that only makes game, which in their case is the main component that causes this "video game addiction".
Yet another argument that I found hilarious was the argument stating that this will limit gold farmers. This has been explained already earlier in this post, but I will reiterate quickly: Gold farmers dont care about XP, yes they will level slower, but this system does not prevent them from unlimited farming and therefore they can keep getting gold and items from monsters their own level.
Im sure there are many more arguments that have no basis but I am tired of typing now and I think what has been stated is enough to show that this system is not a good productive idea to implement into a game.
If you are hardcore enough and get your numbers right and balance your schedule around your gaming I'm sure they could catch up. Would they want to? Probably not. But there are people who will just like how some people start playing a new character a year after the game releases and catch up. You can't forget that there IS a max level until FFXIV starts rolling in expansions. You'll eventually get to the point where you either...
1) don't have enough content to make it worth continuing
2) the exp returns are soooo low that it's around .001 per kill. (not with fatigue) Because your level has exceeded the level of the max level monsters by so much.
3) a normal level cap.
Everyone will be able to catch up at some point if they invest the time and knowledge. It just means that starting early and making good use of your time now means more. Which means if you give SE your money for a longer period of time you will be ahead of people who give money for a less amount of time, unless you don't take advantage of the gaming mechanics.
You wanted my time, so I played you. You wanted my money, I forked it over. You wanted my soul, I gave it willingly. Not to complain... but when do I get my end of the deal? And no, I don't want your flippin' carrot. If you can't do that give me back my youth and keep the change. Why don't you try chasing your own damn carrot for a change? I'll gladly hold the stick.
I think its hilarious that people are applauding this decision because it doesnt allow people to play for long hours and forces them to do something else with their time. When did MMORPGs become like alcohol companies. I can see the slogans now, "Enjoy FFIX, but enjoy our products responsibly." Next there will be a surgeon general's warning on the box, "Indulgence in this product can cause near-sightedness, carpel tunnel syndrome, loss of signifigant other, dementia, and uncontrollable diahrea (of the mouth)"
If you think this is a good idea, why not implement it in real life? Worked eighty hours this week? Sorry, you only get full pay for 40 and then partial pay to 60. But thanks for donating those last 20 hours. We appreciate it. Enjoy your job responsibly.
Me personally, I've already decided what to do in my forced free time from FFIV. I'll just spend it playing WoW.
I think its hilarious that people are applauding this decision because it doesnt allow people to play for long hours and forces them to do something else with their time. When did MMORPGs become like alcohol companies. I can see the slogans now, "Enjoy FFIX, but enjoy our products responsibly." Next there will be a surgeon general's warning on the box, "Indulgence in this product can cause near-sightedness, carpel tunnel syndrome, loss of signifigant other, dementia, and uncontrollable diahrea (of the mouth)"
If you think this is a good idea, why not implement it in real life? Worked eighty hours this week? Sorry, you only get full pay for 40 and then partial pay to 60. But thanks for donating those last 20 hours. We appreciate it. Enjoy your job responsibly.
Me personally, I've already decided what to do in my forced free time from FFIV. I'll just spend it playing WoW.
I think its hilarious that people are applauding this decision because it doesnt allow people to play for long hours and forces them to do something else with their time. When did MMORPGs become like alcohol companies. I can see the slogans now, "Enjoy FFIX, but enjoy our products responsibly." Next there will be a surgeon general's warning on the box, "Indulgence in this product can cause near-sightedness, carpel tunnel syndrome, loss of signifigant other, dementia, and uncontrollable diahrea (of the mouth)"
If you think this is a good idea, why not implement it in real life? Worked eighty hours this week? Sorry, you only get full pay for 40 and then partial pay to 60. But thanks for donating those last 20 hours. We appreciate it. Enjoy your job responsibly.
Me personally, I've already decided what to do in my forced free time from FFIV. I'll just spend it playing WoW.
Exactly and Square Enix has never started you can't play for 8+ hours if you want. All they are saying is that you won't be able to max your character levels within this decade because of this fatigue system but they thank you for giving them your money every month. I think that is the best scam, I mean best system ever.
Are you stupid I usualy agree with all of your post's but this is so retarded sounding? World Of Warcraft in Beta never made me stop leveling yes I slowly got less EXP but never Zero EXP? In this system I have to STOP playing my class or level another one? Also you forgot to mention Physical Level? How could You not mention that its kinda Important because Physical Level is basicly were any real Toon Progression takes place? This Punishes the Hardcore while continueing to support casual. why it does put them on equal playing ground the casual gets to enjoy the game more because he never gets punched in the face and told no.... This is the most stupid post I think I have ever read.
They could have the system on some server shards and have it shut off on others.
That way everyone gets their cake WOOOOHOOO
"We got rid of the trinity." How'd you do that? "Now everyone can heal." Sounds like you just took the mechanic and spread it thin. "Well no, there's one class that can do it better than others." I see, so they're healers. "No. They're.." -mind asplode-
I am for this kind of effort from developers as it will keep more of the player base together. As for having a friend catch-up, just wait for them. No point in rushing them thru content to catch-up to were you are. Let them experience the game fully as you did. Presumably thats why you recommended it the first place.
I agree this is a great approach and much needed. This will help promote community and ward of end game in a week syndrome. This is a step in the right direction and is healthy.
________________________________________________________ Sorcery must persist, the future is the Citadel
I am for this kind of effort from developers as it will keep more of the player base together. As for having a friend catch-up, just wait for them. No point in rushing them thru content to catch-up to were you are. Let them experience the game fully as you did. Presumably thats why you recommended it the first place.
I agree this is a great approach and much needed. This will help promote community and ward of end game in a week syndrome. This is a step in the right direction and is healthy.
True. Except for them to "catch up" would require you to stop playing. One can do that entirely on his own and doesn't need a fatigue system to tell him to do so. Thus because one wouldn't need the fatigue system to achieve this, it would defeat the purpose of even implementing it into the game. So again in case of confusion, there really isn't any good arguments to support this new system.
This reply also applies to the person who quoted my earlier post with pretty much the exact same argument.
Are you stupid I usualy agree with all of your post's but this is so retarded sounding? World Of Warcraft in Beta never made me stop leveling yes I slowly got less EXP but never Zero EXP? In this system I have to STOP playing my class or level another one? Also you forgot to mention Physical Level? How could You not mention that its kinda Important because Physical Level is basicly were any real Toon Progression takes place? This Punishes the Hardcore while continueing to support casual. why it does put them on equal playing ground the casual gets to enjoy the game more because he never gets punched in the face and told no.... This is the most stupid post I think I have ever read.
I think I'd rather be stupid than overly emotional, but maybe that's just me?
Everyone that disagrees with this that I have read so far has absolutely no grasp on any basic economic principles. They are doing this to benefit the users, people are just generally too short sighted or close minded to realize it.
A poor idea for a system that clearly wasn't thought out very well.
Let's say you buy the game and play for a few weeks and like it. You decide to recommend it to a friend who ends up buying it. Your friend would like to level up to where you are in order to be able to group up with you. With this new system, it becomes impossible for your friend to really ever catch up since his progress will have articifical restraints.
This system also will create bottlenecks in leveling areas as the initial pack of people who buy the game level up together at the same speed. This sounds to me like the devs know the end game is severely lacking and they are using this system to stall the players long enough to add some content.
Paragus +10 they want to slow down things for sure.
Something doesnt look right.Is the game 2 short :P
Nice article. I hadn't previously seen the explanation, as it was rather buried in a lot of misinformation elsewhere on the Internet.
It sounds like it could be a cool system. A lot of people are looking at it all wrong, though. People seem to mostly be looking at the system in terms of, "How does this affect me?" That's reasonable for a customer to ask. But let's consider why Square-Enix did this.
Square-Enix didn't want people reaching the level cap in two weeks, and then going around the Internet saying that the game is too short and there's nothing in the end-game and so forth. This is one way to make it take quite a while to reach max level. Another would be to greatly increase the number of experience points required. But that would make it take unreasonably long for people with less time to play to get anywhere, and you'd lose most casual players.
There aren't that many hard-core players who can play for several hours per day on average. If your game is only playable by them, then you lose most of your potential market. There are more casual players than one might guess, as if one player is online 40 hours per week and another 4 hours per week, you're ten times as likely to meet the former. Square-Enix needs a lot of casual players in order for the game to be a commercial success.
What this does is to allow Square-Enix to make hard-core players take a while to reach the level cap, while also letting casuals level at a decent pace. The alternative is to make hard-core players still take a while to level, but make casuals take nearly forever to get anywhere. Who benefits from that? Surely the casuals would be hurt. The hard-core players aren't really helped, as they don't level any faster that way. The only real groups that are hurt by this system are the very top hard-core players who have more free time than most hard-core players, and the ones who want both for themselves to be high level and for most other players not to be. Neither of those are a very big target market.
But there are other benefits, too. One thing that annoys me about a lot of games is that they very often implicitly tell people, you shouldn't be doing what you're doing, even though it's fun, because something else would level you up faster. This allows a game to tell people, yeah, you've played enough that you level up about as fast as you possibly can. You might as well look into whether what you're doing is fun or not. If play style A only gets half as much experience per hour as play style B, someone with enough time can freely choose play style A and level nearly as fast as with play style B.
In particular, many games try to put a lot of content in there, only to see players skip most of the content to focus on the small portion that levels them the fastest. People thus skip 90% of the content on the way to the level cap, think they've seen everything there is to see, and quit. This system will say, it's okay to try different content rather than grinding a few narrow areas. If you want to play a different class, go to a different zone, wander around exploring, or pick up a crafting profession or three, have at it--and without making your "main" fall behind in levels. Surely making it fun to play the game is good for player retention--and purely grinding isn't fun to most people. And it will say it through game mechanics, which is where it matters, not merely some nice sounding blather from the marketing department.
Others have already commented that an experience penalty for people who play a lot would be equivalent to bonus experience for people who play less. But the latter wasn't necessarily an option for Square-Enix, as their intention was that at the very minimal amount, it would be little enough experience that few people would find it worthwhile. It would be kind of silly to make leveling take insanely long at "normal" experience, but let players have 1000% of normal experience to start. Make "normal" just a randomly chosen point between the initial bonus and the ending penalty and it seems arbitrary and stupid. Starting at "normal" experience and having a fatigue penalty is a much cleaner way to do it.
It's important to note that outrage about the system will tend to be overstated in fan feedback. People who don't have much time to play games might rather like the system. But most of them aren't going to spend hours reading and posting on online forums like this one, precisely because they don't have that kind of time. The people who post on forums like this (or FFXIV Core or Eorzeapedia) are the people who have huge amounts of free time. That's the demographic least likely to approve of a system like this. Square-Enix surely knows this, and it's why I don't think they're going to back down, though they may make some tweaks.
One final aside: people wanted PvP in the game? Well, here it is. The game is PvE and the forums are PvP. But what good is forum PvP if you don't have anything to argue about?
I think its hilarious that people are applauding this decision because it doesnt allow people to play for long hours and forces them to do something else with their time. When did MMORPGs become like alcohol companies. I can see the slogans now, "Enjoy FFIX, but enjoy our products responsibly." Next there will be a surgeon general's warning on the box, "Indulgence in this product can cause near-sightedness, carpel tunnel syndrome, loss of signifigant other, dementia, and uncontrollable diahrea (of the mouth)"
If you think this is a good idea, why not implement it in real life? Worked eighty hours this week? Sorry, you only get full pay for 40 and then partial pay to 60. But thanks for donating those last 20 hours. We appreciate it. Enjoy your job responsibly.
Me personally, I've already decided what to do in my forced free time from FFIV. I'll just spend it playing WoW.
Exactly and Square Enix has never started you can't play for 8+ hours if you want. All they are saying is that you won't be able to max your character levels within this decade because of this fatigue system but they thank you for giving them your money every month. I think that is the best scam, I mean best system ever.
Comments
I think the reason people are getting so mad is that they dont have the OPTION to grind the hell outta this game and reach max fast. The fact that it could take forever isnt the main issue. People like choices, and dont want to be restricted or told what to do. I would like being able to do that, although real life stuff can and usually does get in the way.
Another reason is just that the kids that play wow are mad this game doesnt hand you epic loot with little to no effort. What's that? You wanna log in and get purples within 30min? Ok, complain long enough and we'll give it to you so we dont lose your precious sub. Oh, that's not enough? Sorry, we'll nerf the boss so its even easier for you cuz you wiped twice, with a fail group. The wow kids just want everything handed to them. It's generation Y, that's just how they are, gamers or not.
I will be happy to earn my own gear/loot in this game, and if I dont have it, its my own fault. I'm not gonna cry on forums and say the game is terrible and broken until they change it and give me free epics.
I honestly think its brilliant. It has nothing to do with giving bonuses or stopping people from playing.
You can still farm, and most people will see little effect. If you are within the curve...most won't really care. What it does.. what makes it great...it SLOWS the curve down so you don't have max level people in the first week griping about how there is no content. It forces you to actually see the content and get there a little slower without having to FORCE a GRIND.
Also, if people aren't on non-stop...lag is improved and server stability is better..which are complaints in EVERY MMO release. I play a ton, and regardless of exp...I will be on. What does it matter if I play at LEVEL CAP with NO EXP vs on my WAY UP? Most games if you pvp along the way, you get little to no exp, and yet I always do. My friends consider me a fast leveler, and I spend time crafting.
People just hate control. Well, sorry. You pay ONE subscription (some a few more...adicts), but you do not own the company, and they want to maximize profit. If enough people sign up to it and play...thats all they need. Personally, as long as I have someone to play with, and some sense of accomplishment, I don't care what level I am.
Lastly, the author made a great point. Its the same as rested xp, just psychologically people treat it like a punishment. In wow for instance, most do not play at full rested to maximize returns, and noone complains that they are getting 50% possible exp. Also, most of the play time is played at max level, where you gain ZERO xp. But we don't complain about that either. People gripe too much, instead of looking at the positives.
I think people gripe too much about this issue which in turn takes attention away from 20 other issues that i think are more important. Fatigue is the least of my concerns.
Okay for the person who was complaining about paying monthly and not getting a months worth of gameplay. Guess what your paying every month to play! Your not paying for 30 days worth of gameplay my friend. Also I think this system is great, I like to enjoy everthing it has to offer if you are the type that doesnt like to craft or lvl alts and just like to reach cap and get end game gear go play WoW or something. This game is taking a risky and big step for mmorpgs and i like it. Good work Square Enix!!!
I wish we knew the age of the people who are "up in arms" over the fatigue system. It really isn't that big of a deal. Just play the game as it is designed and enjoy the ride kids...
That is exactly what they want. They are going to have 18 classes at launch which include crafting classes and they do not want you just playing 1 class making their hard work on the other classes all for nothing. Also making you take longer to level obviously bring in more monthly fees. They aren't dumb despite what some think.
Not saying playing that much is healthy, but lets put it into perspective. A lot of people go to work, come home, and veg out in some fashion. Why single out MMO games?
Why do people care so much how many hours other people spend on a game? Are you really that bored with your own life that you time how much you think others should play for a service they paid for. This system is simply to hide the fact that the game lacks content and some people are stupid enough to defend it.
Previous post was an error and don't know how to edit.
I already posted this on FFXIV Core but I figure I'll just put my thoughts on it here just to see reactions to it. >.> Cause I'm a glutton for punishment like that I suppose....
--- And so began the long explanation and rant --
The way I look at it the previous 'hard-core' is FFXIV's casual, just achieved in a shorter amount of time.
Is it bad that I REALLY like the idea of this system?
If anything it makes hardcore players even more hardcore, and casual players able to play the content they want within a reasonable time frame without feeling like they are stuck in a never ending grindfest. If you don't follow my line of thinking let me explain myself.
For hardcore players... Me. It gives me a chance to directly compete with other hardcore players while still being able to play with casuals when I want. If I hit the threshold by gaining exp that quickly on my main and say get my Physical level up to 10 (for the sake of example) on the first day. I still have loads of time to expand myself horizontally. If you look at physical level as a vertical axis and skill/class level as a horizontal axis this system is absolutely amazing. If I game for say 12 hours a day I STILL won't be able to catch every single class up to my main. Maybe 5 of them... But by doing this it makes you have to look at your skill/class level as an RTS where you have a set amount of time before something becomes available to you. So you are building up your one man army. Using this system being hardcore actually means something because the more hardcore you are the easier it will be for you to get a party. You will be able to constantly replace the players that leave (ie. casuals). So say I'm playing my lancer and I've already hit the physical level I can keep playing it for the skill/class level. If our pugilist leaves I can switch and take their place being a hardcore player because chances are I still have a ways to go on reaching my max for my pugilist AND by switching I get benefits by now getting skill/class level increases that will better my lancer when I decide to go back and play it. Only hardcore players will be able to effectively solo the higher they get because they have the means to. So hardcore players once they reach the vertical limit they still get to expand horizontally. So instead of this game being a race to max level it's more of a race to max skill level which is impossible to do without proper planning and playing close to 20+ hours a day. And it will become even harder as they add more classes and skills. Hardcore players will be making more gil because they will have more crafting options and not have to pay as much to get the other materials required because they will be high enough to gather it themselves. On top of that because of the way the game is set up if you are a hardcore player you can catch up to other hardcore players especially if they are only focusing on hitting max vertical. So you will be richer, stronger, and a better party choice if you are hardcore vertically and horizontally. Hardcore players will know the best areas for everything, will have the best equipment first, will be able to run instances faster, and be able to enjoy the fluff of the game more because they will be able to level up their classes faster with each class they max out.
And by my personal accounts of hardcore I will be playing the game for 6-8 hours M-R and maybe as much as 12 hours on F. For weekends I could probably get in a good 24-30 all together as long as nothing serious comes up. Which would put me in the ideal range of having the best kind of character one who is vertically and horizontally maxed at all times with the most money. The only problem I see with this is that I might not have enough things to spend gil on. I mean I guess I could buy lots of dye and make tons of pretty outfits >.>
For casuals, like my sister who HATE grinding and just killing things for no point. (animal lover) this system is ideal. I could re-run content with her and anyone she's with and just fill in whatever role they didn't have. (because being hard-core my character would be amazing and have an amazing color scheme going on) She can make enough vertical progress and horizontal progress because she would only be playing 1 class and dabbling in the others. She would never hit the max except maybe on weekends on rare occasions. Since the first day of the week is Sunday she could hit the max vertical and max class/skill level on Sunday (if she wanted to be hardcore for the weekend) and then finish feeling satisfied. Then comes the week with school, work, socializing, or even in-game socializing, shopping, etc. She will have rolled back enough of her penalty to keep playing at her max. Since casual players probably won't be playing more than 4-5 hours in a day she'd always be able to make enough progress vertically with her class and physical level to still always have people to play with. Then the end of the week would come, Saturday, and she gets to max out again. The game's physical level limit would reset for Sunday and she could start all over again.
As they stated they miscalculated and gave away too much exp which is the only reason this would hurt people. Because it would make the game too easy for Casuals, and make horizontal development not worth it for hard-core players.
Moreover in my opinion you aren't very hardcore if you only do well at the stuff you like. Anyone can reach the max level in any mmo if they are playing the class easiest to them however it takes real dedication and a 'hard-core' attitude to be amazing in everything. If anything this game just proves how not hard-core the old hardcore was. I.E. most mmo's where you are only one class. In FFXIV the hardcore people are now trying to reach the end expending as much effort as it would take a normal hardcore player on a normal mmo to reach max level on 8 characters.
Most importantly, since SE determined the thresholds from grinding an hour you really should have a hard time hitting that for 8 hours straight. Especially with the travel system, people are going to want to save their anima points for IMPORTANT things which means you will be traveling, selling, grouping up, basically spending your time doing all these things for about as much time as you would grinding if not more. So in theory you really shouldn't hit that threshold unless you were farming, botting, etc. Because you'd want to empty your inventory, change your gear, and/or move to a new area. So, as I stated previously... you really should hit the threshold in a way that would hold you back from any sort of hardcore gameplay mechanics if the exp given is adjusted appropriately.
Basically all you guys (who are complaining) are just saying. "STUPID SE YOU GAVE ME TOO MUCH EXP! TAKE IT BACK SO I CAN EARN IT APPROPRIATELY!" That's all you are basically saying. They heard you, and are adjusting it accordingly. So stop QQing. And on a last note, not to be snarky, but.... I hate whiners, drama queens, and basically people who think their opinions matter. So if you are not playing the game it's kind of a good thing for those of us who are patient and want to wait things out and see the changes first hand and take part of developing the FFXIV community. A lot of things are going to be established within the first couple months of gameplay and they are well worth the glitches, problems, and drama that come with an initial game release. I personally, wouldn't pass that up for anything in the world because I know this game will be around for a long time, just like FFXI.
Yes, I did get into a bit of a rage by the end. But seriously the issue isn't that serious... All SE has to do is lower the EXP returns for work and you wouldn't notice the difference. So enjoy the break they give you to do other things, like enjoy the cutscenes for starters... or actually take part in the community.
And no this is not me just bending over and taking whatever SE sends my way, as I've heard people say repeatedly. (some people actually LIKE it that way) My views and opinions about it are based on the fact that I am playing FFXIV. FFXIV is what the developers say it is, not what I tell them it should be. If I wanted to play a game where I can grind one character all I want there are hundreds of games I can go to find that. It doesn't HAVE to be FFXIV that provides that for me. It's like me going to the Apple store and being pissed they don't sell Apple's that I can eat. The Apple Store sells Apple products and a grocery store sells apples that I can eat. I'm going to play FFXIV because I want to play what they are providing. When I decide that I don't want anymore I'll stop and play something else that has what I want.
It's not something I need to yell or get upset about. That's the way it is. You don't go to law school to be a doctor. If your mother no longer cooks your mac and cheese the way you want it, and your wife does... why would you still go to your Mom's house to eat mac and cheese?
--- and then it died ---
So basically... that's how I feel about it. Most of you don't care, but I figure if you guys can waste internet space QQ, I can waste internet space Wh00t Wh00t'ing.
Cheers.
P.S. for those of you who feel this is to long, and didn't read it... that's probably why you will have problems with this game anyway. Because you can't read instructions.
Someone will come along that is nice enough to translate this for you....
You wanted my time, so I played you. You wanted my money, I forked it over. You wanted my soul, I gave it willingly. Not to complain... but when do I get my end of the deal? And no, I don't want your flippin' carrot. If you can't do that give me back my youth and keep the change. Why don't you try chasing your own damn carrot for a change? I'll gladly hold the stick.
There has been a lot of people trying to make positive arguments for this type of system. I would like to address a few of them.
One argument states that Square Enix is trying to equalize the casual and hardcore players, and so that hardcore players do not have an unfair advantage by leveling way faster than casual players.
To those people I ask you this: What will you tell the PS3 players when they finally be able to play FFXIV next year as oppose to this year when only PC owners will be able to play FFXIV? They will see the pc players and see they have max level characters or so, while they themselves are just starting out. Will you say " Tough, should have gotten a PC"? This practice totally contradicts this supposed principle that Square Enix is doing and makes them look like hypocrites, not to mention idiots.
Another argument that was put forth was that it is not healthy for players to play for more than 2 hours a day or whatever. Well let me address this one. I read a few posts of people who have medical conditions and they need to stay home because of said medical conditions, and they use video games to keep their mind sharp. These same people have lots of time on their hands and their doctors recommend them to play games. This is not including the Attention Deficit Disorder (ADD) field for which studies have shown that ADD patients have easier time focusing on video games and they are used as treatment for these patients. To those who said that players who play more than 2 hours a day to get a life: will you tell these people to "get a life" also? If you are cruel and inconsiderate I guess you would.
There was another part to this type of argument. They were stating that Square Enix is trying to control "video game addiction" by controlling how many hours a person can play. Isn't making a video game counter-productive to this goal? If they wanted to control video game addiction, they would achieve better results doing all of the following: A) Not releasing FFXIV
Taking FFIX offline and C) Disbanding their company that only makes video games, which in their case is the main component that causes this "video game addiction".
Yet another argument that I found hilarious was the argument stating that this will limit gold farmers. This has been explained already earlier in this thread, but I will reiterate quickly: Gold farmers dont care about XP, yes they will level slower, but this system does not prevent them from unlimited farming and therefore they can keep getting gold and items from monsters their own level.
Im sure there are many more arguments that have no basis but I am tired of typing now and I think what has been stated is enough to show that this system is not a good productive idea to implement into a game.
If you are hardcore enough and get your numbers right and balance your schedule around your gaming I'm sure they could catch up. Would they want to? Probably not. But there are people who will just like how some people start playing a new character a year after the game releases and catch up. You can't forget that there IS a max level until FFXIV starts rolling in expansions. You'll eventually get to the point where you either...
1) don't have enough content to make it worth continuing
2) the exp returns are soooo low that it's around .001 per kill. (not with fatigue) Because your level has exceeded the level of the max level monsters by so much.
3) a normal level cap.
Everyone will be able to catch up at some point if they invest the time and knowledge. It just means that starting early and making good use of your time now means more. Which means if you give SE your money for a longer period of time you will be ahead of people who give money for a less amount of time, unless you don't take advantage of the gaming mechanics.
You wanted my time, so I played you. You wanted my money, I forked it over. You wanted my soul, I gave it willingly. Not to complain... but when do I get my end of the deal? And no, I don't want your flippin' carrot. If you can't do that give me back my youth and keep the change. Why don't you try chasing your own damn carrot for a change? I'll gladly hold the stick.
I think its hilarious that people are applauding this decision because it doesnt allow people to play for long hours and forces them to do something else with their time. When did MMORPGs become like alcohol companies. I can see the slogans now, "Enjoy FFIX, but enjoy our products responsibly." Next there will be a surgeon general's warning on the box, "Indulgence in this product can cause near-sightedness, carpel tunnel syndrome, loss of signifigant other, dementia, and uncontrollable diahrea (of the mouth)"
If you think this is a good idea, why not implement it in real life? Worked eighty hours this week? Sorry, you only get full pay for 40 and then partial pay to 60. But thanks for donating those last 20 hours. We appreciate it. Enjoy your job responsibly.
Me personally, I've already decided what to do in my forced free time from FFIV. I'll just spend it playing WoW.
I do. I'm salary...
Exactly and Square Enix has never started you can't play for 8+ hours if you want. All they are saying is that you won't be able to max your character levels within this decade because of this fatigue system but they thank you for giving them your money every month. I think that is the best scam, I mean best system ever.
Are you stupid I usualy agree with all of your post's but this is so retarded sounding? World Of Warcraft in Beta never made me stop leveling yes I slowly got less EXP but never Zero EXP? In this system I have to STOP playing my class or level another one? Also you forgot to mention Physical Level? How could You not mention that its kinda Important because Physical Level is basicly were any real Toon Progression takes place? This Punishes the Hardcore while continueing to support casual. why it does put them on equal playing ground the casual gets to enjoy the game more because he never gets punched in the face and told no.... This is the most stupid post I think I have ever read.
They could have the system on some server shards and have it shut off on others.
That way everyone gets their cake WOOOOHOOO
"We got rid of the trinity." How'd you do that? "Now everyone can heal." Sounds like you just took the mechanic and spread it thin. "Well no, there's one class that can do it better than others." I see, so they're healers. "No. They're.." -mind asplode-
I agree this is a great approach and much needed. This will help promote community and ward of end game in a week syndrome. This is a step in the right direction and is healthy.
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Sorcery must persist, the future is the Citadel
True. Except for them to "catch up" would require you to stop playing. One can do that entirely on his own and doesn't need a fatigue system to tell him to do so. Thus because one wouldn't need the fatigue system to achieve this, it would defeat the purpose of even implementing it into the game. So again in case of confusion, there really isn't any good arguments to support this new system.
This reply also applies to the person who quoted my earlier post with pretty much the exact same argument.
I think I'd rather be stupid than overly emotional, but maybe that's just me?
Then don't pay them.
Everyone that disagrees with this that I have read so far has absolutely no grasp on any basic economic principles. They are doing this to benefit the users, people are just generally too short sighted or close minded to realize it.
Nice article. I hadn't previously seen the explanation, as it was rather buried in a lot of misinformation elsewhere on the Internet.
It sounds like it could be a cool system. A lot of people are looking at it all wrong, though. People seem to mostly be looking at the system in terms of, "How does this affect me?" That's reasonable for a customer to ask. But let's consider why Square-Enix did this.
Square-Enix didn't want people reaching the level cap in two weeks, and then going around the Internet saying that the game is too short and there's nothing in the end-game and so forth. This is one way to make it take quite a while to reach max level. Another would be to greatly increase the number of experience points required. But that would make it take unreasonably long for people with less time to play to get anywhere, and you'd lose most casual players.
There aren't that many hard-core players who can play for several hours per day on average. If your game is only playable by them, then you lose most of your potential market. There are more casual players than one might guess, as if one player is online 40 hours per week and another 4 hours per week, you're ten times as likely to meet the former. Square-Enix needs a lot of casual players in order for the game to be a commercial success.
What this does is to allow Square-Enix to make hard-core players take a while to reach the level cap, while also letting casuals level at a decent pace. The alternative is to make hard-core players still take a while to level, but make casuals take nearly forever to get anywhere. Who benefits from that? Surely the casuals would be hurt. The hard-core players aren't really helped, as they don't level any faster that way. The only real groups that are hurt by this system are the very top hard-core players who have more free time than most hard-core players, and the ones who want both for themselves to be high level and for most other players not to be. Neither of those are a very big target market.
But there are other benefits, too. One thing that annoys me about a lot of games is that they very often implicitly tell people, you shouldn't be doing what you're doing, even though it's fun, because something else would level you up faster. This allows a game to tell people, yeah, you've played enough that you level up about as fast as you possibly can. You might as well look into whether what you're doing is fun or not. If play style A only gets half as much experience per hour as play style B, someone with enough time can freely choose play style A and level nearly as fast as with play style B.
In particular, many games try to put a lot of content in there, only to see players skip most of the content to focus on the small portion that levels them the fastest. People thus skip 90% of the content on the way to the level cap, think they've seen everything there is to see, and quit. This system will say, it's okay to try different content rather than grinding a few narrow areas. If you want to play a different class, go to a different zone, wander around exploring, or pick up a crafting profession or three, have at it--and without making your "main" fall behind in levels. Surely making it fun to play the game is good for player retention--and purely grinding isn't fun to most people. And it will say it through game mechanics, which is where it matters, not merely some nice sounding blather from the marketing department.
Others have already commented that an experience penalty for people who play a lot would be equivalent to bonus experience for people who play less. But the latter wasn't necessarily an option for Square-Enix, as their intention was that at the very minimal amount, it would be little enough experience that few people would find it worthwhile. It would be kind of silly to make leveling take insanely long at "normal" experience, but let players have 1000% of normal experience to start. Make "normal" just a randomly chosen point between the initial bonus and the ending penalty and it seems arbitrary and stupid. Starting at "normal" experience and having a fatigue penalty is a much cleaner way to do it.
It's important to note that outrage about the system will tend to be overstated in fan feedback. People who don't have much time to play games might rather like the system. But most of them aren't going to spend hours reading and posting on online forums like this one, precisely because they don't have that kind of time. The people who post on forums like this (or FFXIV Core or Eorzeapedia) are the people who have huge amounts of free time. That's the demographic least likely to approve of a system like this. Square-Enix surely knows this, and it's why I don't think they're going to back down, though they may make some tweaks.
One final aside: people wanted PvP in the game? Well, here it is. The game is PvE and the forums are PvP. But what good is forum PvP if you don't have anything to argue about?
Amazing how blind you really are.