Originally posted by Xondar123 Looks like to you innovation = sandbox. Which is, of course, completely untrue.
Not really (the innovation = sandbox part.) There has been a ton of innovation across the genre in years past, most of it is just grinding to a halt now. Shrug. Changing the story up isn't innovating... that's just a different skin. A few examples-- WOW innovated when it came to interface customization, everquest innovated an entire style of game play that we're all still playing largely (which wow used, which everyone else in turn used more or a less), asheron's call, eve, and ultima online all innovated in using unique systems for advancement that weren't exp = level = advancement. It goes on and on, but really think about it... if you get rid of the items that make up the visuals and audio how much has any modern game innovated? aion? conan? war? please. It's pretty pathetic really (I enjoyed pvp in war, but there wasn't a drop of innovation in the game ~anywhere~)
If I had to make any comment about sandbox vs linear games it would be, linear advancement games have been more throughly explored and someone either needs to get some balls and do something interesting or they need to more throughly explore other options (sandbox, player content, reworking genre, etc... something)
Looks like to you innovation = sandbox. Which is, of course, completely untrue.
Not really (the innovation = sandbox part.) There has been a ton of innovation across the genre in years past, most of it is just grinding to a halt now. Shrug. Changing the story up isn't innovating... that's just a different skin
They are doing something that has NEVER been done in an MMO before. It is something that players interact with and make decisions that have consequences. If such a thing doesn't count as innovation, then nothing does.
So I am taking my leave from this game. I won't but it. You, Bioware, have cut down the great dream of Star Wars and narrowed it to the one strength you undeniably have: storytelling. And for me, that is just not good enough. You never should have decided to make a MMO in the first place, because in my very personal opinion, you have no clue what makes a MMO. What you are doing is the same Cryptic did with Champions and STO. You know the IP hype alone with pay via the box sales, give or take a few lifetimers and some months keeping people with promises, and then you have your share. Star Wars doesn't mean heck to you, and I am sorry to say, you never ever should have gotten that IP into your hands.
When I played Star Wars Galaxies, I almost threw up on myself, because I was that embarrassed to play it, it was poorly developed and it stained my heart with hopes of a great MMO, which it certainly was not. ( sorry for all the fans of SWG)
Bioware which made KOTOR, blew the roof when they released this game, I mean I was beyond myself when I first got a crack at the game and still love it to this day, I know Obsidian Entertainment developed the 2nd installment, but it was still a Bioware title which they failed to make excel on the same level as the first title.
Now when I look at Star Wars TOR, I see something big, from what the KOTOR series was just a piece of the experience, now you will really feel the world of Star Wars like it was meant to be. ( blocking out SWG)
You saying Bioware shouldn't do an MMO, why not, they want to challange themself, they may have a few hiccups down the road or maybe at launch, but at least there trying. I was getting tired of Bioware games stuck in the single player world, I wanted something more and here is that more. Then after that I want to see maybe Mass Effect, Baulders Gate, Dragon Age or even a new IP, get the MMO treatment, Bioware makes great single player games, but the people want more.
Cryptic has tried and tried MMO's and yes Cryptic has failed in the MMO world ( In my opinion), but that doesn't mean Bioware will have the same fate.
Wildstar (2013) & Elder Scroll Online (2013)
Playing: Diablo 3, WOW, Far Cry 3 & X-Com.
Enjoyed: WOW 5 1/2 yrs, LOTRO 3yrs, GW 1/2yr, DFO 1yr, EVE Online 3yrs, and Huxley (Beta).
Failed to impress: GW2 3months, Tera Online 6 months (best combat system in any MMO I've played) STO 1/4yr, Aion 1/2yr, AoC 1yr, CO, Fallen Earth, DDO, EQ2 1/2yr, WAR 1/2yr, Lineage 2 and FF XI 1/2yr, FF XIV.
I agree Stamps79, we don't know what bioware is capable of in the MMO genre, i'd like to let a company do something wrong at least once before i put them in the bad apples pile. However some people like to hear from others what the apple is like and throw it in the bad pile before they look at it themselves.
We don't know what Bioware is gonna accomplish with their game, the only people who can talk from experience are those that have played the demos the others can pull sources from the many screenshots and such but to just say the game will be bad before it is even released seems kinda foolish to me. I could do the same thing with countless other games and say it will suck for x or y reason. I'm probably going to be wrong but i could do it. The mere fact that i'm not sure is the reason i don't try to pass my opinion off as facts based on information that either is going to change before release or are not there at all.
Most complaints people have are design choices:
On the rails space: A lot of people said they wanted to fly around. This isn't a bad thing as people like to say, it's a design choice. If done well, is it not possible to have the same amount of fun as flying to that one rock off in the distance? I'd say easily yeah you can. Everyone so caught up with freedom they forgot that you can have fun in other forms as well.
The graphics: While the graphics may not be on par with other games, this is again a design choice. Bioware did this to get the people which equals money. They did this to have a unique feel to the other two games that are coming out that are super realistic or CGI looking. Is this a good or bad thing? Well only release will really tell that picture.
Combat: This one i haven't heard as much about but i think with the active combat this is really the only design choice they could have improved on, they have enemies dodging, i would have liked to be able to do that as well. But again this is a design choice on BW end not a flaw.
To sum up, i hate when people just say a game is going to be bad unless they actually state with proven reason why it's going to be bad or at least state in their opinion it will be bad. Also many people are squabbling saying BW doesn't know how to make an mmo based off of some information they have and not the full spectrum, let BW make an actual mistake before you burn them at the stake and the reasons listed are just design choices not actual things they have done wrong.
Of course you can feel free to jump me as a fanboy, good lord i know i've talked it up enough to warrant that title, I just want people to be realistic and not listen to all the false information flying around. Gotta have someone bring the hype up to where it's suppose to be :P (yes i did that on purpose)
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.
I agree with the OP in every word but maybe one... I might break and give this game a try... and i know i will burn.. but a shard of hope always remains in my naive head... Maybe Bioware can pull it off? Maybe they won't fail at this game as they did recently with some "dowloadable content".
But who am i kidding... *sigh*
I've been uplinked and downloaded, I've been inputted and outsourced. I know the upside of downsizing, I know the downside of upgrading.
I'm a high-tech low-life. A cutting-edge, state-of-the-art, bi-coastal multi-tasker, and I can give you a gigabyte in a nanosecond.
I'm new-wave, but I'm old-school; and my inner child is outward-bound.
I'm a hot-wired, heat-seeking, warm-hearted cool customer; voice-activated and bio-degradable.
What you are doing is the same Cryptic did with Champions and STO. You know the IP hype alone with pay via the box sales, give or take a few lifetimers and some months keeping people with promises, and then you have your share.
SWToR actually looks like something Cryptic could cobble together in their sleep tbh, and I am not just talking about visually, but then they can get away with it with their fanbase I guess. If Cryptic had put in a on rails space shooter mini game into CO the SW fans would have ripped it up and laughed at it, but Bioware do it and it's golden...
The dream that was once Bioware has been fading ever since they became another EA cash cow I am afraid
SWTOR is not being advertised as a space game. If it was, I could understand ripping it apart.
hmm hello?
its a star wars game?
space being a key component in that world?
The best selling STAR Wars game was KotOR.....
Ironic isn't it.
Psst ... the best selling Star Wars game is The Forced Unleashed. Better luck next time, noob.
well isnt the point still being made? Most star wars games dont involve space. Jedi knight series, Kotor, force unleashed, republic commando, much more im missing im sure.
No, actually the point I was making was that the SW kids accept, rationalise, and justify a piss poor implementation of space combat as a on rails mini game in this game when they would attack it in other games a laughable (which it truly is).
Honestly, Cryptic could have made this game better, in 2 years not 6, and that isnt a compliement.
Looks like to you innovation = sandbox. Which is, of course, completely untrue.
Not really (the innovation = sandbox part.) There has been a ton of innovation across the genre in years past, most of it is just grinding to a halt now. Shrug. Changing the story up isn't innovating... that's just a different skin
They are doing something that has NEVER been done in an MMO before. It is something that players interact with and make decisions that have consequences. If such a thing doesn't count as innovation, then nothing does.
That's BS actually. Story has been in MMO's for awhile, it was actually something Blizzard really wanted to accomplish with WoW. Choices have been in other MMO's, I know one I can remember off the top of my head is whether the doctor was guilty or innocent in The Chronicles of Spellborn, on top of that you choose your house(faction) that have their own specific quest lines. I know house shroud had a ton of assasination missions . Then you look at Guildwars which did story and that very same team came back with GW2 which is doing both story and choices on top of a completely innovative world dynamic events. I believe I even remember AION having some choice in how some quests were completed. Voice was done by a few EQ2, AoC, and even to a lesser extent WoW(By fire be purged!).
Also SWTOR choices having actual important gameplay consequences remains to be seen. If the choices are just story then it well and truly doesn't matter because after the story ends it won't matter. If it is abilities that unlock, Armor unlocks,etc then maybe I'll be impressed but the overall MMO community will complain so much that it won't stay.
There really isn't much different in SWTOR from your standard MMO. Quest text= dilogue, choice= accept/decline quest, etc. The only major difference is that the story is stuffed down your throat instead of being there to discover. IMO it isn't very innovation since in the end the gameplay is what you're left with and SWTORs is a straight copy & paste job.
First off, for so many people that think that the OP is just mentally unstable, I'd point out the fact that there are, at the time of this post, 24 pages of replies, many attacking the OP. Who is more mentally unstable, the guy posting all over the place about his hatred of a game not yet released, or all of the fanbois attacking him in order to defend a game that, again, has yet to be released?
I've played SWG for a number of years off and on. There are PLENTY of problems with the game. It is mainly because I'm a huge SW fan, and I'm not interested in the fantasy genre, that I continue to play. SWG is playable, and even enjoyable to me, but there is a lot left to be desired, so clearly TOR would appeal to me. As I've stated before, while I'm a SW fan, I have also not been knocked out of my chair with excitement. I'm not looking for SWG2, but I'm not looking for "WoW2: WoW in Space" either.
The story looks like it will be amazing, and I actually like the idea at least of the "tunnel shooter" space system. What I don't care for is the overall look of the game, both the graphics and the look of the costumes and characters. Let's face it, TOR's graphics look a lot like WoW. I'm also not impressed with what I've seen of the combat visuals and gameplay mechanics, which also seem to be similar to WoW. I agree with the OP that BW has also grown somewhat arrogant about the game, as you can see a couple of times from the speaker in the PAX panel video.
As I've stated before, when they release a free trial, I'll likely give it a shot. If TOR's gameplay turns out to be even close to the impression I've gotten thus far, I guarantee that I will not finish out the free trial time. Does this make the game bad? Of cxourse not, it just means it's not for me. No big deal.
To the people slobbering all over their keyboard every time they release new info about this game, and attacking every person that posts something negative about it, you are giving the people that are "hating" on the game another argument to use. Who would want to play a game with people this annoyingly immature?
Originally posted by KyBoLet's face it, TOR's graphics look a lot like WoW. I'm also not impressed with what I've seen of the combat visuals and gameplay mechanics, which also seem to be similar to WoW.
NO, they both seem very similar with the ones in KOTOR, which was released well before WOW.
if anyone here is annoying or undeducated-it's you.
Do you really, REALLY make two threads a day about how much you hate this game? Really?
Good lord, Most of us know you hate the game. Cool! I just don't understand why you must post so much about how bad this game is, about how much you hate it, and about how stupid people are for liking it.
You say the same arguement over and over and over. Again, that's fine you don't like said game. But why make such a campaign against the game every day? You posted the same drivel months ago, before more and more info became known about the game.
Fighting for a better TOR how? By screaming to as many people as you could about how bad the game is? By telling us anywhere you could post that your ideas are much better then the people who are investing their money into the games ideas?
You don't post threads on this forum or the TOR forums on what the COMMUNITY (IE what lots of people think, and not just you), to improve the game. You post threads detailing your opinions of why other people shouldn't play. Over and over.
I am very excited for TOR, and very excited for GW2. I will play both for sure! It's cool if people want to talk about the game, or even say "It sucks for (insert reason here)". Everyone should here on these forums. But I think most people here don't go out of their way to post like this.
Now, I tried out the FF beta. I didn't really enjoy the game, nor did I think I would from the start, but I gave it a shot. I made a few comments on posts by other people about my feelings on the game. But I didn't start a crusade on the FF forums, or these forums, for people not to play. By all means, try it out. Just, I like certain games, and this wasn't one of them.
I'm definitely not a troll but I know when I see a failing MMO as I have bought every single failure in the past 5 years and I dreadfully regret it. I have been playing MMOs since late 1997 UO and in the past 5 years more failures have come out than in my entire 13 year MMO experience (SWTOR will not be the exception, only something that is trying to go a different route will, and the only game that seems to be trying to do that is GW2, atm.).
Actually, if you know when you see a failing MMO and you've bought every failure in the past 5 years, I'd say you either make bad choices, or you aren't so good at picking the failures from the good ones.....
SWTOR will do very well, simply because there is a reason to play this game where all others have failed. What "everyone" believes is their biggest gamble (story) is actually their biggest reason to continue subscribing, and most people don't have the sense to look past the basic MMO model they've been seeing for all these years to see how the story and simple changes they've made changes the entire flow of the game.
As Yoda would say "Story does not an MMO, make.", sorry but all of you that use that argument on why this game is innovative don't have anything to fall back on, story does not make an MMO. People skip the story of an MMO usually, full VO will not change that. Bioware should have just made KOTOR 3 at this point and not an MMO.
This game isn't a "usually" type of game. Story isn't making this game an MMO, story is what is making this MMO great. Do you even understand what the story has to do with in this MMO and how it differs from others? Do you have any idea what the use of story means for this game in comparison to other games?
Its clear some people just can't understand how the system works, they can't wrap their head around it, and thats why some people think this game is still a single player game. You still think this game is about VO and a "story" but you don't understand the underlying drive that completely changes the way people will play this MMO both alone and with many, many players.
Then again, learning nothing about how the mechanics of the game works if your whole purpose for following this game is to talk down to those that are interested in it. For some with lesser knowledge on the game, it may work, but you'll have to do better than "story doesn't make MMO, Space Combat, SWG, Wookies." for me to take these criticisms seriously.
Actually, it isn't great. It isn't a fail either.
We don't know what it will be until it's launched.
ToR was never even meant to be an actual game, follow the money.
The reason for the extra years delay is so Lucasarts can save some face with this fiasco.
Johnny boy made out like a bandit(Bono as well).
This game was a scam from the get go.
I'm having trouble deciphering whether this is a joke or not..... so I'll just take it as a joke.
Elevation Partners, start your search from there.
.... sometimes this community is just... unbelievable. Ridiculous... and unbelievable...
i have to agree with you maskedweasel, kb056 has absolutely no clue what hes talking about. no one is going to throw away $40 million on a design idea that never will happen especially when you have a company like Electronic Arts backing up the idea. to Kb056 I dont know what your on to think the way you do so can i have some of it, it must be nice to live in a world of false conspiracy theroies and delusions.
Of course Electronic Arts is also the company that screwed up the unscrew-uppable Spore, the Sims Online etc etc.
To all the people who claim SWTOR has WoW Style Graphics. GET YOUR EYES CHECKED.
I play WoW and have been sence the launch of Wrath of the Lich King so I know what the style of graphics Blizzard uses for World of Warcraft. What BioWare uses for Star Wars the Old Republic is NOT the same Grpahics engine. To get a second opinion I asked a friend of mine to judge for himself(he hates WoW calls it Disney Style) he said in his opinion it looked like a cross between LOTRO and SWG style.
For those that dont believe here is a comparison
WoW
SWTOR
no way are these two similar
"Possibly we humans can exist without actually having to fight. But many of us have chosen to fight. For what reason? To protect something? Protect what? Ourselves? The future? If we kill people to protect ourselves and this future, then what sort of future is it, and what will we have become? There is no future for those who have died. And what of those who did the killing? Is happiness to be found in a future that is grasped with blood stained hands? Is that the truth?"
First off, for so many people that think that the OP is just mentally unstable, I'd point out the fact that there are, at the time of this post, 24 pages of replies, many attacking the OP. Who is more mentally unstable, the guy posting all over the place about his hatred of a game not yet released, or all of the fanbois attacking him in order to defend a game that, again, has yet to be released?
I think both sides can get rather nutty at times. Though I stopped taking the OP too seriously when he made a thread nerd raging over his toon named Queercop having a forced name change. I figured then he was just someone who liked to stir up drama, for the sake of drama. Judging by these threads he's been starting I wasn't to far off.That may be seen as an attack on him, I assure you it's not, I'm just offering a little perspective on how I am viewing these threads.
I've played SWG for a number of years off and on. There are PLENTY of problems with the game. It is mainly because I'm a huge SW fan, and I'm not interested in the fantasy genre, that I continue to play. SWG is playable, and even enjoyable to me, but there is a lot left to be desired, so clearly TOR would appeal to me. As I've stated before, while I'm a SW fan, I have also not been knocked out of my chair with excitement. I'm not looking for SWG2, but I'm not looking for "WoW2: WoW in Space" either.
Agree
The story looks like it will be amazing, and I actually like the idea at least of the "tunnel shooter" space system. What I don't care for is the overall look of the game, both the graphics and the look of the costumes and characters. Let's face it, TOR's graphics look a lot like WoW. I'm also not impressed with what I've seen of the combat visuals and gameplay mechanics, which also seem to be similar to WoW. I agree with the OP that BW has also grown somewhat arrogant about the game, as you can see a couple of times from the speaker in the PAX panel video.
I don't really find it arrogant to be thrilled about your product as well as having pride in creating it. That's how I view Bioware's recent demeanor.
As I've stated before, when they release a free trial, I'll likely give it a shot. If TOR's gameplay turns out to be even close to the impression I've gotten thus far, I guarantee that I will not finish out the free trial time. Does this make the game bad? Of cxourse not, it just means it's not for me. No big deal.
I'll pick it up a few months after launch, at least to play through once, if I like what I see I'll stick around, if not I am almost positive I'll at least get my money's worth from the box purchase (Story content).
To the people slobbering all over their keyboard every time they release new info about this game, and attacking every person that posts something negative about it, you are giving the people that are "hating" on the game another argument to use. Who would want to play a game with people this annoyingly immature?
I agree here, both sides need to tone it down a bit.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
SWTOR is not being advertised as a space game. If it was, I could understand ripping it apart.
This is exactly what I mean...
If Cryptic had used the same system you SWToR guys wouldnt be saying that at all, but Bioware put it in and you rationalise it.
In other words your argument is a catch 22? Basically, you're a rabid fanboi if you give a differing opinion, gotcha!
IF Cryptic had used A: the same system or B: a different system, I really couldn't care less. I had no interest in a single game they've made.
What he's saying is, SWTOR is being designed in the same manner KOTRO was, more about story and character building, less about space exploration. Thats' not rationilizing it, that's telling it like it is.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I felt it important to get involved in a 14 page thread of flame, unfortunately I have no opinion on the matter at all, which is a shame to say the least. Unrelated however I will say SW sukz nutz ST rulez for life!!!!
----- The person who is certain, and who claims divine warrant for his certainty, belongs now to the infancy of our species.
The fanbois of this game are more disgusting than any of the past failed MMO fanbois that I have seen in the last 5 years. I hope this game burns terribly and the fanbois are left with terrible burn scars from the money that they wasted once everyone quits after the first month (Probably by going back to wow, as this game pretty much looks like wow in space anyways and if people wanted to play wow, they would play wow.).
You know, the saddest thing is, we are have repeated this experience in a fashion like "Groundhog Day" the last 5 years over and over. It is always the same. When a MMO is in beta, the warnings are on the table. Every single time. Be it Vanguard or Warhammer, Age of Conan, Champions Online, Star Trek or Aion. There were always those who saw the flaws when there was still time to remedy it. and what did they get?
Mockery, flaming, harrassment from the fanbois. And then, fast forward one year, everyone realized the worst critique had come true. And then, ZIP, the clock is set back to 7 AM with the next MMO in beta and the entire thing starts anew, and the audience is puzzled why Phil Conners knows it all.
It is the same here, with one difference. It isn't funny.
This is funny, since all i read from those that have actually played the game at the events are very impressed and love it, and many have said it could be released today and be more polished than the majority of MMO's that are out already.
There is of course a few that didn't find a particular class to their satisfaction and some of the AI had glitches but other than that it's been positive.
Vocal minority is just that - a minority. Shouting loudest does not equal being correct. However, repeat a lie often enough and some people start believing it.
"The person who experiences greatness must have a feeling for the myth he is in."
The fanbois of this game are more disgusting than any of the past failed MMO fanbois that I have seen in the last 5 years. I hope this game burns terribly and the fanbois are left with terrible burn scars from the money that they wasted once everyone quits after the first month (Probably by going back to wow, as this game pretty much looks like wow in space anyways and if people wanted to play wow, they would play wow.).
You know, the saddest thing is, we are have repeated this experience in a fashion like "Groundhog Day" the last 5 years over and over. It is always the same. When a MMO is in beta, the warnings are on the table. Every single time. Be it Vanguard or Warhammer, Age of Conan, Champions Online, Star Trek or Aion. There were always those who saw the flaws when there was still time to remedy it. and what did they get?
Mockery, flaming, harrassment from the fanbois. And then, fast forward one year, everyone realized the worst critique had come true. And then, ZIP, the clock is set back to 7 AM with the next MMO in beta and the entire thing starts anew, and the audience is puzzled why Phil Conners knows it all.
It is the same here, with one difference. It isn't funny.
This is funny, since all i read from those that have actually played the game at the events are very impressed and love it, and many have said it could be released today and be more polished than the majority of MMO's that are out already.
There is of course a few that didn't find a particular class to their satisfaction and some of the AI had glitches but other than that it's been positive.
Protoype demo versions for games are typically over-polished and most often not representative of how the final released version will play out. Particularly because they're designed to only show that a finite view of a miniscule portion of the game, and do it extremely well. It's marketing, plain and simple.
The true face of the game won't start to show until Beta, and even then it won't be final until release.
The exact same thing happened for War, AoC, and Aion. Rave reviews, protoype demo players loved it, all prior to release. Then the game released, and it took a month or two before the reality of the true nature of the games to be realized by players.
The same will happen for this game, because no matter how good it does turn out to be, it will never live up to the hype that is currently being spewed by the rabid fanboyism this game has.
The fanbois of this game are more disgusting than any of the past failed MMO fanbois that I have seen in the last 5 years. I hope this game burns terribly and the fanbois are left with terrible burn scars from the money that they wasted once everyone quits after the first month (Probably by going back to wow, as this game pretty much looks like wow in space anyways and if people wanted to play wow, they would play wow.).
You know, the saddest thing is, we are have repeated this experience in a fashion like "Groundhog Day" the last 5 years over and over. It is always the same. When a MMO is in beta, the warnings are on the table. Every single time. Be it Vanguard or Warhammer, Age of Conan, Champions Online, Star Trek or Aion. There were always those who saw the flaws when there was still time to remedy it. and what did they get?
Mockery, flaming, harrassment from the fanbois. And then, fast forward one year, everyone realized the worst critique had come true. And then, ZIP, the clock is set back to 7 AM with the next MMO in beta and the entire thing starts anew, and the audience is puzzled why Phil Conners knows it all.
It is the same here, with one difference. It isn't funny.
This is funny, since all i read from those that have actually played the game at the events are very impressed and love it, and many have said it could be released today and be more polished than the majority of MMO's that are out already.
There is of course a few that didn't find a particular class to their satisfaction and some of the AI had glitches but other than that it's been positive.
Protoype demo versions for games are typically over-polished and most often not representative of how the final released version will play out. Particularly because they're designed to only show that a finite view of a miniscule portion of the game, and do it extremely well. It's marketing, plain and simple.
The true face of the game won't start to show until Beta, and even then it won't be final until release.
The exact same thing happened for War, AoC, and Aion. Rave reviews, protoype demo players loved it, all prior to release. Then the game released, and it took a month or two before the reality of the true nature of the games to be realized by players.
The same will happen for this game, because no matter how good it does turn out to be, it will never live up to the hype that is currently being spewed by the rabid fanboyism this game has.
What you call fanboyism i call just being a excited SW fan. For me personally i love SW and anything new is a plus. You can cry that TOR is gonna be like WAR and AOC at launch and all i can say is, i guess we will see. Nothing that Bioware has done has made me not believe that the whole game will not be as polished and complete as what we have seen so far.
I'm just hoping that people like yourself, are posting this not only in this game forum but also in thee GW2 and Rift ones as well, cause right now on this site, it seems that those two games are very over hyped and have a much more chance of being unfinished and not as polished as TOR on their release.
Protoype demo versions for games are typically over-polished and most often not representative of how the final released version will play out. Particularly because they're designed to only show that a finite view of a miniscule portion of the game, and do it extremely well. It's marketing, plain and simple.
The true face of the game won't start to show until Beta, and even then it won't be final until release.
The exact same thing happened for War, AoC, and Aion. Rave reviews, protoype demo players loved it, all prior to release. Then the game released, and it took a month or two before the reality of the true nature of the games to be realized by players.
The same will happen for this game, because no matter how good it does turn out to be, it will never live up to the hype that is currently being spewed by the rabid fanboyism this game has.
I somewhat agree with this statement but tihnk it's wasted jsut being in this thread and needs to be imported word for word into a Guild Wars 2 thread post haste!
The fanbois of this game are more disgusting than any of the past failed MMO fanbois that I have seen in the last 5 years. I hope this game burns terribly and the fanbois are left with terrible burn scars from the money that they wasted once everyone quits after the first month (Probably by going back to wow, as this game pretty much looks like wow in space anyways and if people wanted to play wow, they would play wow.).
You know, the saddest thing is, we are have repeated this experience in a fashion like "Groundhog Day" the last 5 years over and over. It is always the same. When a MMO is in beta, the warnings are on the table. Every single time. Be it Vanguard or Warhammer, Age of Conan, Champions Online, Star Trek or Aion. There were always those who saw the flaws when there was still time to remedy it. and what did they get?
Mockery, flaming, harrassment from the fanbois. And then, fast forward one year, everyone realized the worst critique had come true. And then, ZIP, the clock is set back to 7 AM with the next MMO in beta and the entire thing starts anew, and the audience is puzzled why Phil Conners knows it all.
It is the same here, with one difference. It isn't funny.
This is funny, since all i read from those that have actually played the game at the events are very impressed and love it, and many have said it could be released today and be more polished than the majority of MMO's that are out already.
There is of course a few that didn't find a particular class to their satisfaction and some of the AI had glitches but other than that it's been positive.
Protoype demo versions for games are typically over-polished and most often not representative of how the final released version will play out. Particularly because they're designed to only show that a finite view of a miniscule portion of the game, and do it extremely well. It's marketing, plain and simple.
The true face of the game won't start to show until Beta, and even then it won't be final until release.
The exact same thing happened for War, AoC, and Aion. Rave reviews, protoype demo players loved it, all prior to release. Then the game released, and it took a month or two before the reality of the true nature of the games to be realized by players.
The same will happen for this game, because no matter how good it does turn out to be, it will never live up to the hype that is currently being spewed by the rabid fanboyism this game has.
Yes a trend that you can point to made by three of the most recent mmo's does stand but I'm going to let Bioware stand on their own merits and not judge them by the actions of three companies I personally feel are inferior to them in just about every way. As a matter of fact BW has swallowed one of them up already.
for those three games you point to you can also point to a ton of games that didn't use that tactic so again let's let companies stand on what they do not what you have allowed others to do to you possibly.
Maybe the same will happen maybe it won't but really if one wants to call himself a Star Wars fan for life and an avid mmo player then I can only assume something else is amiss if they can make the determination that the game won't be worth it long before it even launches.
At the end of the day it's the internet and anyone who brands a game a failure post launch is just as equally a failure because most likely that same person isn't going to leave an equal amount of posts about how wrong he was he's just going to melt away into the background noise that is the internet.
After this reply I doubt I'll even waste my time responding to any posts that say something like this, it's one thing to complain about the direction but to say you already know it will suck so you won't play it is pointless to even voice, if you feel that way simply move on to something more your flavor.
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....
Comments
Not really (the innovation = sandbox part.) There has been a ton of innovation across the genre in years past, most of it is just grinding to a halt now. Shrug. Changing the story up isn't innovating... that's just a different skin. A few examples-- WOW innovated when it came to interface customization, everquest innovated an entire style of game play that we're all still playing largely (which wow used, which everyone else in turn used more or a less), asheron's call, eve, and ultima online all innovated in using unique systems for advancement that weren't exp = level = advancement. It goes on and on, but really think about it... if you get rid of the items that make up the visuals and audio how much has any modern game innovated? aion? conan? war? please. It's pretty pathetic really (I enjoyed pvp in war, but there wasn't a drop of innovation in the game ~anywhere~)
If I had to make any comment about sandbox vs linear games it would be, linear advancement games have been more throughly explored and someone either needs to get some balls and do something interesting or they need to more throughly explore other options (sandbox, player content, reworking genre, etc... something)
Shadus
Can I have your sense of entitlement?
love it!!
ragequit before the game is even out. awesome
They are doing something that has NEVER been done in an MMO before. It is something that players interact with and make decisions that have consequences. If such a thing doesn't count as innovation, then nothing does.
When I played Star Wars Galaxies, I almost threw up on myself, because I was that embarrassed to play it, it was poorly developed and it stained my heart with hopes of a great MMO, which it certainly was not. ( sorry for all the fans of SWG)
Bioware which made KOTOR, blew the roof when they released this game, I mean I was beyond myself when I first got a crack at the game and still love it to this day, I know Obsidian Entertainment developed the 2nd installment, but it was still a Bioware title which they failed to make excel on the same level as the first title.
Now when I look at Star Wars TOR, I see something big, from what the KOTOR series was just a piece of the experience, now you will really feel the world of Star Wars like it was meant to be. ( blocking out SWG)
You saying Bioware shouldn't do an MMO, why not, they want to challange themself, they may have a few hiccups down the road or maybe at launch, but at least there trying. I was getting tired of Bioware games stuck in the single player world, I wanted something more and here is that more. Then after that I want to see maybe Mass Effect, Baulders Gate, Dragon Age or even a new IP, get the MMO treatment, Bioware makes great single player games, but the people want more.
Cryptic has tried and tried MMO's and yes Cryptic has failed in the MMO world ( In my opinion), but that doesn't mean Bioware will have the same fate.
Wildstar (2013) & Elder Scroll Online (2013)
Playing: Diablo 3, WOW, Far Cry 3 & X-Com.
Enjoyed: WOW 5 1/2 yrs, LOTRO 3yrs, GW 1/2yr, DFO 1yr, EVE Online 3yrs, and Huxley (Beta).
Failed to impress: GW2 3months, Tera Online 6 months (best combat system in any MMO I've played) STO 1/4yr, Aion 1/2yr, AoC 1yr, CO, Fallen Earth, DDO, EQ2 1/2yr, WAR 1/2yr, Lineage 2 and FF XI 1/2yr, FF XIV.
I agree Stamps79, we don't know what bioware is capable of in the MMO genre, i'd like to let a company do something wrong at least once before i put them in the bad apples pile. However some people like to hear from others what the apple is like and throw it in the bad pile before they look at it themselves.
We don't know what Bioware is gonna accomplish with their game, the only people who can talk from experience are those that have played the demos the others can pull sources from the many screenshots and such but to just say the game will be bad before it is even released seems kinda foolish to me. I could do the same thing with countless other games and say it will suck for x or y reason. I'm probably going to be wrong but i could do it. The mere fact that i'm not sure is the reason i don't try to pass my opinion off as facts based on information that either is going to change before release or are not there at all.
Most complaints people have are design choices:
On the rails space: A lot of people said they wanted to fly around. This isn't a bad thing as people like to say, it's a design choice. If done well, is it not possible to have the same amount of fun as flying to that one rock off in the distance? I'd say easily yeah you can. Everyone so caught up with freedom they forgot that you can have fun in other forms as well.
The graphics: While the graphics may not be on par with other games, this is again a design choice. Bioware did this to get the people which equals money. They did this to have a unique feel to the other two games that are coming out that are super realistic or CGI looking. Is this a good or bad thing? Well only release will really tell that picture.
Combat: This one i haven't heard as much about but i think with the active combat this is really the only design choice they could have improved on, they have enemies dodging, i would have liked to be able to do that as well. But again this is a design choice on BW end not a flaw.
To sum up, i hate when people just say a game is going to be bad unless they actually state with proven reason why it's going to be bad or at least state in their opinion it will be bad. Also many people are squabbling saying BW doesn't know how to make an mmo based off of some information they have and not the full spectrum, let BW make an actual mistake before you burn them at the stake and the reasons listed are just design choices not actual things they have done wrong.
Of course you can feel free to jump me as a fanboy, good lord i know i've talked it up enough to warrant that title, I just want people to be realistic and not listen to all the false information flying around. Gotta have someone bring the hype up to where it's suppose to be :P (yes i did that on purpose)
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.
I agree with the OP in every word but maybe one... I might break and give this game a try... and i know i will burn.. but a shard of hope always remains in my naive head... Maybe Bioware can pull it off? Maybe they won't fail at this game as they did recently with some "dowloadable content".
But who am i kidding... *sigh*
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RIP George Carlin.
No, actually the point I was making was that the SW kids accept, rationalise, and justify a piss poor implementation of space combat as a on rails mini game in this game when they would attack it in other games a laughable (which it truly is).
Honestly, Cryptic could have made this game better, in 2 years not 6, and that isnt a compliement.
That's BS actually. Story has been in MMO's for awhile, it was actually something Blizzard really wanted to accomplish with WoW. Choices have been in other MMO's, I know one I can remember off the top of my head is whether the doctor was guilty or innocent in The Chronicles of Spellborn, on top of that you choose your house(faction) that have their own specific quest lines. I know house shroud had a ton of assasination missions
. Then you look at Guildwars which did story and that very same team came back with GW2 which is doing both story and choices on top of a completely innovative world dynamic events. I believe I even remember AION having some choice in how some quests were completed. Voice was done by a few EQ2, AoC, and even to a lesser extent WoW(By fire be purged!).
Also SWTOR choices having actual important gameplay consequences remains to be seen. If the choices are just story then it well and truly doesn't matter because after the story ends it won't matter. If it is abilities that unlock, Armor unlocks,etc then maybe I'll be impressed but the overall MMO community will complain so much that it won't stay.
There really isn't much different in SWTOR from your standard MMO. Quest text= dilogue, choice= accept/decline quest, etc. The only major difference is that the story is stuffed down your throat instead of being there to discover. IMO it isn't very innovation since in the end the gameplay is what you're left with and SWTORs is a straight copy & paste job.
First off, for so many people that think that the OP is just mentally unstable, I'd point out the fact that there are, at the time of this post, 24 pages of replies, many attacking the OP. Who is more mentally unstable, the guy posting all over the place about his hatred of a game not yet released, or all of the fanbois attacking him in order to defend a game that, again, has yet to be released?
I've played SWG for a number of years off and on. There are PLENTY of problems with the game. It is mainly because I'm a huge SW fan, and I'm not interested in the fantasy genre, that I continue to play. SWG is playable, and even enjoyable to me, but there is a lot left to be desired, so clearly TOR would appeal to me. As I've stated before, while I'm a SW fan, I have also not been knocked out of my chair with excitement. I'm not looking for SWG2, but I'm not looking for "WoW2: WoW in Space" either.
The story looks like it will be amazing, and I actually like the idea at least of the "tunnel shooter" space system. What I don't care for is the overall look of the game, both the graphics and the look of the costumes and characters. Let's face it, TOR's graphics look a lot like WoW. I'm also not impressed with what I've seen of the combat visuals and gameplay mechanics, which also seem to be similar to WoW. I agree with the OP that BW has also grown somewhat arrogant about the game, as you can see a couple of times from the speaker in the PAX panel video.
As I've stated before, when they release a free trial, I'll likely give it a shot. If TOR's gameplay turns out to be even close to the impression I've gotten thus far, I guarantee that I will not finish out the free trial time. Does this make the game bad? Of cxourse not, it just means it's not for me. No big deal.
To the people slobbering all over their keyboard every time they release new info about this game, and attacking every person that posts something negative about it, you are giving the people that are "hating" on the game another argument to use. Who would want to play a game with people this annoyingly immature?
NO, they both seem very similar with the ones in KOTOR, which was released well before WOW.
if anyone here is annoying or undeducated-it's you.
Do you really, REALLY make two threads a day about how much you hate this game? Really?
Good lord, Most of us know you hate the game. Cool! I just don't understand why you must post so much about how bad this game is, about how much you hate it, and about how stupid people are for liking it.
You say the same arguement over and over and over. Again, that's fine you don't like said game. But why make such a campaign against the game every day? You posted the same drivel months ago, before more and more info became known about the game.
Fighting for a better TOR how? By screaming to as many people as you could about how bad the game is? By telling us anywhere you could post that your ideas are much better then the people who are investing their money into the games ideas?
You don't post threads on this forum or the TOR forums on what the COMMUNITY (IE what lots of people think, and not just you), to improve the game. You post threads detailing your opinions of why other people shouldn't play. Over and over.
I am very excited for TOR, and very excited for GW2. I will play both for sure! It's cool if people want to talk about the game, or even say "It sucks for (insert reason here)". Everyone should here on these forums. But I think most people here don't go out of their way to post like this.
Now, I tried out the FF beta. I didn't really enjoy the game, nor did I think I would from the start, but I gave it a shot. I made a few comments on posts by other people about my feelings on the game. But I didn't start a crusade on the FF forums, or these forums, for people not to play. By all means, try it out. Just, I like certain games, and this wasn't one of them.
Actually, it isn't great. It isn't a fail either.
We don't know what it will be until it's launched.
Of course Electronic Arts is also the company that screwed up the unscrew-uppable Spore, the Sims Online etc etc.
To all the people who claim SWTOR has WoW Style Graphics. GET YOUR EYES CHECKED.
I play WoW and have been sence the launch of Wrath of the Lich King so I know what the style of graphics Blizzard uses for World of Warcraft. What BioWare uses for Star Wars the Old Republic is NOT the same Grpahics engine. To get a second opinion I asked a friend of mine to judge for himself(he hates WoW calls it Disney Style) he said in his opinion it looked like a cross between LOTRO and SWG style.
For those that dont believe here is a comparison
WoW
SWTOR
no way are these two similar
"Possibly we humans can exist without actually having to fight. But many of us have chosen to fight. For what reason? To protect something? Protect what? Ourselves? The future? If we kill people to protect ourselves and this future, then what sort of future is it, and what will we have become? There is no future for those who have died. And what of those who did the killing? Is happiness to be found in a future that is grasped with blood stained hands? Is that the truth?"
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I think they mean they are both cartoonesque.
I agree with you in general though, i think SW looks more like CO then WoW visually.
In other words your argument is a catch 22? Basically, you're a rabid fanboi if you give a differing opinion, gotcha!
IF Cryptic had used A: the same system or B: a different system, I really couldn't care less. I had no interest in a single game they've made.
What he's saying is, SWTOR is being designed in the same manner KOTRO was, more about story and character building, less about space exploration. Thats' not rationilizing it, that's telling it like it is.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I felt it important to get involved in a 14 page thread of flame, unfortunately I have no opinion on the matter at all, which is a shame to say the least. Unrelated however I will say SW sukz nutz ST rulez for life!!!!
-----
The person who is certain, and who claims divine warrant for his certainty, belongs now to the infancy of our species.
This is funny, since all i read from those that have actually played the game at the events are very impressed and love it, and many have said it could be released today and be more polished than the majority of MMO's that are out already.
There is of course a few that didn't find a particular class to their satisfaction and some of the AI had glitches but other than that it's been positive.
Vocal minority is just that - a minority. Shouting loudest does not equal being correct. However, repeat a lie often enough and some people start believing it.
"The person who experiences greatness must have a feeling for the myth he is in."
Protoype demo versions for games are typically over-polished and most often not representative of how the final released version will play out. Particularly because they're designed to only show that a finite view of a miniscule portion of the game, and do it extremely well. It's marketing, plain and simple.
The true face of the game won't start to show until Beta, and even then it won't be final until release.
The exact same thing happened for War, AoC, and Aion. Rave reviews, protoype demo players loved it, all prior to release. Then the game released, and it took a month or two before the reality of the true nature of the games to be realized by players.
The same will happen for this game, because no matter how good it does turn out to be, it will never live up to the hype that is currently being spewed by the rabid fanboyism this game has.
What you call fanboyism i call just being a excited SW fan. For me personally i love SW and anything new is a plus. You can cry that TOR is gonna be like WAR and AOC at launch and all i can say is, i guess we will see. Nothing that Bioware has done has made me not believe that the whole game will not be as polished and complete as what we have seen so far.
I'm just hoping that people like yourself, are posting this not only in this game forum but also in thee GW2 and Rift ones as well, cause right now on this site, it seems that those two games are very over hyped and have a much more chance of being unfinished and not as polished as TOR on their release.
I somewhat agree with this statement but tihnk it's wasted jsut being in this thread and needs to be imported word for word into a Guild Wars 2 thread post haste!
Yes a trend that you can point to made by three of the most recent mmo's does stand but I'm going to let Bioware stand on their own merits and not judge them by the actions of three companies I personally feel are inferior to them in just about every way. As a matter of fact BW has swallowed one of them up already.
for those three games you point to you can also point to a ton of games that didn't use that tactic so again let's let companies stand on what they do not what you have allowed others to do to you possibly.
Maybe the same will happen maybe it won't but really if one wants to call himself a Star Wars fan for life and an avid mmo player then I can only assume something else is amiss if they can make the determination that the game won't be worth it long before it even launches.
At the end of the day it's the internet and anyone who brands a game a failure post launch is just as equally a failure because most likely that same person isn't going to leave an equal amount of posts about how wrong he was he's just going to melt away into the background noise that is the internet.
After this reply I doubt I'll even waste my time responding to any posts that say something like this, it's one thing to complain about the direction but to say you already know it will suck so you won't play it is pointless to even voice, if you feel that way simply move on to something more your flavor.
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....