It might be me who is mistaken, but I think OP just wanted to play a Jedi Ithorian and BioWare won't let him. Personally I like stylised realism very much. It is an ART, not just graphics, and how good it is depends only on devs imagination where BioWare+LucasArts are not lacking imho.
I've been hanging around the official forums for quite some time, and most of the reasons for the posts like the OP one are:
-no black lightsabers
-no lightwhips
-no playable wookies
-no playable jawas
-no appearance tab
-space combat not allowing for free roam
etc. etc. all completly meaningless if you ask me
From all vids I've seen up to now, I think SWTOR has amazing graphics, very good gameplay, fast combat, great music, immersive storyline and huge content. I guess some people just want a StarWars-SIMS online so they can live the life of Han Solo. I'm looking only for a good MMO and that's why I like the direction BioWare took on TOR.
Maybe he wanted to play Ithorian Jedi, but what you say sounds a hell lot like "thank goodness my wish is in" and you care not about other people's wishes. Quite selfish.
I at least enjoy MMORPGs with a broad selection of things, even if my wish is in, it irritates me to have such a big budget and then have such a few and limited choices. Don't know what's so hard to see about that. I mean yes, maybe we all get to see many new things, which they haven't shown us. But with Daniel Erickson's quote, that does not seem very likely. We all value different things. But why have no ear for the wishes of others? Why only look for what you want and then to hell with the rest? A strange mentality for someone who wants to play alongside other people. Do you in real life work the same: as long you as you get what you want it doesn't matter what anyone else wants?
It might be me who is mistaken, but I think OP just wanted to play a Jedi Ithorian and BioWare won't let him. Personally I like stylised realism very much. It is an ART, not just graphics, and how good it is depends only on devs imagination where BioWare+LucasArts are not lacking imho.
I've been hanging around the official forums for quite some time, and most of the reasons for the posts like the OP one are:
-no black lightsabers
-no lightwhips
-no playable wookies
-no playable jawas
-no appearance tab
-space combat not allowing for free roam
etc. etc. all completly meaningless if you ask me
From all vids I've seen up to now, I think SWTOR has amazing graphics, very good gameplay, fast combat, great music, immersive storyline and huge content. I guess some people just want a StarWars-SIMS online so they can live the life of Han Solo. I'm looking only for a good MMO and that's why I like the direction BioWare took on TOR.
'Space combat not allowing for free roam' is actually pretty important in many people's opinion.
It might be me who is mistaken, but I think OP just wanted to play a Jedi Ithorian and BioWare won't let him. Personally I like stylised realism very much. It is an ART, not just graphics, and how good it is depends only on devs imagination where BioWare+LucasArts are not lacking imho.
I've been hanging around the official forums for quite some time, and most of the reasons for the posts like the OP one are:
-no black lightsabers
-no lightwhips
-no playable wookies
-no playable jawas
-no appearance tab
-space combat not allowing for free roam
etc. etc. all completly meaningless if you ask me
From all vids I've seen up to now, I think SWTOR has amazing graphics, very good gameplay, fast combat, great music, immersive storyline and huge content. I guess some people just want a StarWars-SIMS online so they can live the life of Han Solo. I'm looking only for a good MMO and that's why I like the direction BioWare took on TOR.
'Space combat not allowing for free roam' is actually pretty important in many people's opinion.
Don't get me wrong, I like space combat implementation, but I don't really need a flight-simulator to be happy in MMO. I think that BioWare will add much more to space combat in the expansions anyway. But I don't get it, how can people make such a problem of no free-roam at the release? Few months ago we didn't expect any space combat at all. It is just a nice mini-game, not a main-game-content, at least this is how BioWare intend it to be. But as I said, I think they will add free roam in the first expansion anyway.
Originally posted by KyBoLet's face it, TOR's graphics look a lot like WoW. I'm also not impressed with what I've seen of the combat visuals and gameplay mechanics, which also seem to be similar to WoW.
NO, they both seem very similar with the ones in KOTOR, which was released well before WOW.
if anyone here is annoying or undeducated-it's you.
Wow, a troll post. Thank you for making my point about annoying fanbois attacking everything they disagree with. Stunning.
The graphics in KoTOR were much more realistic than the WoW/Clone Wars style used in TOR. I'd recommend an eye exam, but I realize that it's hard for you to see the difference in visual styles with your head that far up BW's a$$.
One need only look at the graphics and mechanics of the Heroengine, which was used to build TOR, to understand why the graphics are similar to WoW. See here where Neil Harris of Simutronics, who created the Heroengine, lays it out quite clearly in an interview about the Heroengine and TOR. "- It's got everything you would need to build World of Warcraft if you wanted to. We have a complete graphics front end -." It's clear that, at least in terms of graphics and mechanics, TOR was designed to appeal to the WoW crowd.
The reason for using stylized graphics is because it 's less resource consuming, allowing the game to run on lower-end systems. This is the same reason WoW uses similar graphics. Again, TOR looks like WoW, deal with it.
You see, an educated person uses factual resources to form their opinions, and also to defend that opinion, rather than simply biased personal conjecture and childish whining.
Here's some free advice: have a clue of what you're talking about before you nerdrage. It will keep you from looking so ignorant. I understand how I may be annoying to someone like you, going around and pointing out facts that ruin your TOR wet-dream. The game is what it is, for better or worse.
See this is the type of post that have people who are truly excited for TOR so frustrated.
Let's get this straight shall we. We know what the game is and is not. It seems that the majority of people who is interested in this game understands that even though on a personal level, will not get everything they would like, the game in itself looks very detailed and fun.
It's you the detractors that keep attacking and highjacking threads on various sites that seem to not be able to either comprehend or get past other games that were played, be it a old SW game or some other MMO.
What i see and read is that, most people that is following this game are not anymore of a fanboi or whatever than those that are following GW2 or RIFT. They are excited SW fans and or MMO gamers that are looking for something deeper and more fun than what they see out or coming up in the futrue.
It might be me who is mistaken, but I think OP just wanted to play a Jedi Ithorian and BioWare won't let him. Personally I like stylised realism very much. It is an ART, not just graphics, and how good it is depends only on devs imagination where BioWare+LucasArts are not lacking imho.
I've been hanging around the official forums for quite some time, and most of the reasons for the posts like the OP one are:
-no black lightsabers
-no lightwhips
-no playable wookies
-no playable jawas
-no appearance tab
-space combat not allowing for free roam
etc. etc. all completly meaningless if you ask me
From all vids I've seen up to now, I think SWTOR has amazing graphics, very good gameplay, fast combat, great music, immersive storyline and huge content. I guess some people just want a StarWars-SIMS online so they can live the life of Han Solo. I'm looking only for a good MMO and that's why I like the direction BioWare took on TOR.
Maybe he wanted to play Ithorian Jedi, but what you say sounds a hell lot like "thank goodness my wish is in" and you care not about other people's wishes. Quite selfish.
I at least enjoy MMORPGs with a broad selection of things, even if my wish is in, it irritates me to have such a big budget and then have such a few and limited choices. Don't know what's so hard to see about that. I mean yes, maybe we all get to see many new things, which they haven't shown us. But with Daniel Erickson's quote, that does not seem very likely. We all value different things. But why have no ear for the wishes of others? Why only look for what you want and then to hell with the rest? A strange mentality for someone who wants to play alongside other people. Do you in real life work the same: as long you as you get what you want it doesn't matter what anyone else wants?
Many people would like to try and change what the product is to what they want and force a company to make the game they want instead of what the devs want, if you look at it that way thats pretty selfish too. Sure freedom is nice but not if forcing that freedom drops the fun value of the game to abysmal levels. First and foremost this is intended to be story driven therefore some freedoms such as free roam might have to be sacrificed because of it.
As for the RL quote about everyone thinking of themselves. Try a job next time, when you and one other person are up for a promotion, who are you really thinking should get it? and if you say even for a second it's the other guy, your full of it plain and simple. in real life it's either you or them, thats how real life works. it's not nice, it's not fair and it's sure as heck not friendly. Sure it appears that way on the surface but deep down it's not. Mess up and the comapny you work for doesn't care. You should have made sure you didn't. So yes, in RL i'm very selfish, i try to be more friendly in game then in RL because i'm there for fun.
As for games, yes your not gonna get everything you want. but we gotta make suggestions to the devs not try and force changes onto them. We are not the sculptor so we shouldn't be taking chisels to their sculptors.
OKay thats all. sorry if this seems rushed, i'm really low on time.
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.
Originally posted by KyBoLet's face it, TOR's graphics look a lot like WoW. I'm also not impressed with what I've seen of the combat visuals and gameplay mechanics, which also seem to be similar to WoW.
NO, they both seem very similar with the ones in KOTOR, which was released well before WOW.
if anyone here is annoying or undeducated-it's you.
Wow, a troll post. Thank you for making my point about annoying fanbois attacking everything they disagree with. Stunning.
The graphics in KoTOR were much more realistic than the WoW/Clone Wars style used in TOR. I'd recommend an eye exam, but I realize that it's hard for you to see the difference in visual styles with your head that far up BW's a$$.
One need only look at the graphics and mechanics of the Heroengine, which was used to build TOR, to understand why the graphics are similar to WoW. See here where Neil Harris of Simutronics, who created the Heroengine, lays it out quite clearly in an interview about the Heroengine and TOR. "- It's got everything you would need to build World of Warcraft if you wanted to. We have a complete graphics front end -." It's clear that, at least in terms of graphics and mechanics, TOR was designed to appeal to the WoW crowd.
The reason for using stylized graphics is because it 's less resource consuming, allowing the game to run on lower-end systems. This is the same reason WoW uses similar graphics. Again, TOR looks like WoW, deal with it.
You see, an educated person uses factual resources to form their opinions, and also to defend that opinion, rather than simply biased personal conjecture and childish whining.
Here's some free advice: have a clue of what you're talking about before you nerdrage. It will keep you from looking so ignorant. I understand how I may be annoying to someone like you, going around and pointing out facts that ruin your TOR wet-dream. The game is what it is, for better or worse.
I kind of like the graphics , I don't know what the big deal is.
The scenary looks good. Maybe the PC's and NPC's could look better, but I think it looks ok.
I've come to the realization a long time ago with regards to IPs, game companies just don't and won't ever "get it". They have MILLIONS and MILLIONS of fans the world over, yet they chase that fan base away. I just don't understand it.
Remember Daron Stinnet, the second executive produce for Star Trek Online from P.E. before they sold out to Cryptic, and the line the rang loud and clear around the STO community? "We are not making a game for Trekkies" I mean seriously... WTH, why would you not make a game for a built in fanbase? You have millions of fans around the globe. Chances of your MMORPG ever getting over 200,000 concurrent monthly paid subscribers are slim to none anyway, so why not make it for a life long dedicated fanbase?
It's sad to see a developer chasing away what would have been a permanent subscriber to SW:TOR.
Fear not fanbois, we are not trolls, let's take off your tin foil hat and learn what VAPORWARE is:
"Vaporware is a term used to describe a software or hardware product that is announced by a developer well in advance of release, but which then fails to emerge after having well exceeded the period of development time that was initially claimed or would normally be expected for the development cycle of a similar product."
I've come to the realization a long time ago with regards to IPs, game companies just don't and won't ever "get it". They have MILLIONS and MILLIONS of fans the world over, yet they chase that fan base away. I just don't understand it.
Remember Daron Stinnet, the second executive produce for Star Trek Online from P.E. before they sold out to Cryptic, and the line the rang loud and clear around the STO community? "We are not making a game for Trekkies" I mean seriously... WTH, why would you not make a game for a built in fanbase? You have millions of fans around the globe. Chances of your MMORPG ever getting over 200,000 concurrent monthly paid subscribers are slim to none anyway, so why not make it for a life long dedicated fanbase?
It's sad to see a developer chasing away what would have been a permanent subscriber to SW:TOR.
Actually Bioware is catering to their fanbase. They just aren't catering to the sandbox whiners or the people with wildly unrealistic expectations. If you have played Bioware's RPGs in the past, you should have known exactly what to expect. If you liked those games, you should also like TOR. If not, I don't know why any of you even bother on these forums... You should leave so the actual fans of the game can have meaningful discussions.
Let me repeat it for you all just one more time: This is NOT a sandbox game. This is NOT a flight simulator. This is NOT SWG 2. Thank God!
I've come to the realization a long time ago with regards to IPs, game companies just don't and won't ever "get it". They have MILLIONS and MILLIONS of fans the world over, yet they chase that fan base away. I just don't understand it.
Remember Daron Stinnet, the second executive produce for Star Trek Online from P.E. before they sold out to Cryptic, and the line the rang loud and clear around the STO community? "We are not making a game for Trekkies" I mean seriously... WTH, why would you not make a game for a built in fanbase? You have millions of fans around the globe. Chances of your MMORPG ever getting over 200,000 concurrent monthly paid subscribers are slim to none anyway, so why not make it for a life long dedicated fanbase?
It's sad to see a developer chasing away what would have been a permanent subscriber to SW:TOR.
Actually Bioware is catering to their fanbase. They just aren't catering to the sandbox whiners or the people with wildly unrealistic expectations. If you have played Bioware's RPGs in the past, you should have known exactly what to expect. If you liked those games, you should also like TOR. If not, I don't know why any of you even bother on these forums... You should leave so the actual fans of the game can have meaningful discussions.
Let me repeat it for you all just one more time: This is NOT a sandbox game. This is NOT a flight simulator. This is NOT SWG 2. Thank God!
That's the problem. They are catering to THEIR fanbase. They are not catering to the 10s of millions of Star Wars fans. The reason why Blizzard is so wildly successful is that they understood the "WARCRAFT", "Diablo", and "Star Craft"markets. BioWare had their own IPs where they could have gone after a truly great MMORPG on their own right. Instead, they decided to opt for Star Wars instead. As such, it puzzles me with the direction they are headed. Why the stream lined focused story line for IP with a wide open set of potential? I believe they are missing the boat on what could have been a truly special MMORPG. Am I saying I won't buy this game or not play this game? HELL NO! I'll be there. Like I said in my orignal post, I don't see why BioWare is so bent on chasing the Star Wars fan base away.
Fear not fanbois, we are not trolls, let's take off your tin foil hat and learn what VAPORWARE is:
"Vaporware is a term used to describe a software or hardware product that is announced by a developer well in advance of release, but which then fails to emerge after having well exceeded the period of development time that was initially claimed or would normally be expected for the development cycle of a similar product."
I've come to the realization a long time ago with regards to IPs, game companies just don't and won't ever "get it". They have MILLIONS and MILLIONS of fans the world over, yet they chase that fan base away. I just don't understand it.
Remember Daron Stinnet, the second executive produce for Star Trek Online from P.E. before they sold out to Cryptic, and the line the rang loud and clear around the STO community? "We are not making a game for Trekkies" I mean seriously... WTH, why would you not make a game for a built in fanbase? You have millions of fans around the globe. Chances of your MMORPG ever getting over 200,000 concurrent monthly paid subscribers are slim to none anyway, so why not make it for a life long dedicated fanbase?
It's sad to see a developer chasing away what would have been a permanent subscriber to SW:TOR.
Actually Bioware is catering to their fanbase. They just aren't catering to the sandbox whiners or the people with wildly unrealistic expectations. If you have played Bioware's RPGs in the past, you should have known exactly what to expect. If you liked those games, you should also like TOR. If not, I don't know why any of you even bother on these forums... You should leave so the actual fans of the game can have meaningful discussions.
Let me repeat it for you all just one more time: This is NOT a sandbox game. This is NOT a flight simulator. This is NOT SWG 2. Thank God!
That's the problem. They are catering to THEIR fanbase. They are not catering to the 10s of millions of Star Wars fans. The reason why Blizzard is so wildly successful is that they understood the "WARCRAFT", "Diablo", and "Star Craft"markets. BioWare had their own IPs where they could have gone after a truly great MMORPG on their own right. Instead, they decided to opt for Star Wars instead. As such, it puzzles me with the direction they are headed. Why the stream lined focused story line for IP with a wide open set of potential? I believe they are missing the boat on what could have been a truly special MMORPG. Am I saying I won't buy this game or not play this game? HELL NO! I'll be there. Like I said in my orignal post, I don't see why BioWare is so bent on chasing the Star Wars fan base away.
They are catering to star wars fans... SWG catered to sand box fans. Simple as that.
This game is not a sandbox and this site is a huge sandbox advocate. Of course you will see people complaining about it here.
I am a star wars fan , NOT a bioware fan, and I am excited about this game and like most of what I have seen thus far.
Only thing I didn't like was the singleplayer space. Why? i want pvp in space, I don't mind the rail shooter, but why not make it multiplayer and why not have an option for Open world space with PVP?
That is my only gripe, but since I am not playing this game for a space sim. I couldn't care less, and I am sure they will find a way to work those things in later on.
I wouldn't care if the game had space or not.
And if what you say is true , than how comes the 10's of millions of people are not playing swg? Could it be because they don't like sandbox? Maybe it is an aquired taste for some people? At the most swg ever had was 200k subs and once the game went live those numbers dropped rather abruptly.
I've come to the realization a long time ago with regards to IPs, game companies just don't and won't ever "get it". They have MILLIONS and MILLIONS of fans the world over, yet they chase that fan base away. I just don't understand it.
Remember Daron Stinnet, the second executive produce for Star Trek Online from P.E. before they sold out to Cryptic, and the line the rang loud and clear around the STO community? "We are not making a game for Trekkies" I mean seriously... WTH, why would you not make a game for a built in fanbase? You have millions of fans around the globe. Chances of your MMORPG ever getting over 200,000 concurrent monthly paid subscribers are slim to none anyway, so why not make it for a life long dedicated fanbase?
It's sad to see a developer chasing away what would have been a permanent subscriber to SW:TOR.
Actually Bioware is catering to their fanbase. They just aren't catering to the sandbox whiners or the people with wildly unrealistic expectations. If you have played Bioware's RPGs in the past, you should have known exactly what to expect. If you liked those games, you should also like TOR. If not, I don't know why any of you even bother on these forums... You should leave so the actual fans of the game can have meaningful discussions.
Let me repeat it for you all just one more time: This is NOT a sandbox game. This is NOT a flight simulator. This is NOT SWG 2. Thank God!
That's the problem. They are catering to THEIR fanbase. They are not catering to the 10s of millions of Star Wars fans. The reason why Blizzard is so wildly successful is that they understood the "WARCRAFT", "Diablo", and "Star Craft"markets. BioWare had their own IPs where they could have gone after a truly great MMORPG on their own right. Instead, they decided to opt for Star Wars instead. As such, it puzzles me with the direction they are headed. Why the stream lined focused story line for IP with a wide open set of potential? I believe they are missing the boat on what could have been a truly special MMORPG. Am I saying I won't buy this game or not play this game? HELL NO! I'll be there. Like I said in my orignal post, I don't see why BioWare is so bent on chasing the Star Wars fan base away.
They are catering to star wars fans... SWG catered to sand box fans. Simple as that.
This game is not a sandbox and this site is a huge sandbox advocate. Of course you will see people complaining about it here.
I am a star wars fan , NOT a bioware fan, and I am excited about this game and like most of what I have seen thus far.
Only thing I didn't like was the singleplayer space. Why? i want pvp in space, I don't mind the rail shooter, but why not make it multiplayer and why not have an option for Open world space with PVP?
That is my only gripe, but since I am not playing this game for a space sim. I couldn't care less, and I am sure they will find a way to work those things in later on.
I wouldn't care if the game had space or not.
And if what you say is true , than how comes the 10's of millions of people are not playing swg? Could it be because they don't like sandbox? Maybe it is an aquired taste for some people? At the most swg ever had was 200k subs and once the game went live those numbers dropped rather abruptly.
With all due respect, you are 100% wrong. At it's peak, after release, SWG was the 2nd most successful MMORPG next to EQ, ever. Then, the CU and NGEs happened. Why are people not playing. Read the article. Read the old SWG threads. I don't have to rehash everything. It's well documented. SWGs is a prime example that when customers have worked their asses off for years for achievements, you don't completely revamp a game and make those achievements meaningless. The Devs and Lucas Arts royally screwed up and killed their own success.
Fear not fanbois, we are not trolls, let's take off your tin foil hat and learn what VAPORWARE is:
"Vaporware is a term used to describe a software or hardware product that is announced by a developer well in advance of release, but which then fails to emerge after having well exceeded the period of development time that was initially claimed or would normally be expected for the development cycle of a similar product."
With all due respect, you are 100% wrong. At it's peak, after release, SWG was the 2nd most successful MMORPG next to EQ, ever. Then, the CU and NGEs happened. Why are people not playing. Read the article. Read the old SWG threads. I don't have to rehash everything. It's well documented. SWGs is a prime example that when customers have worked their asses off for years for achievements, you don't completely revamp a game and make those achievements meaningless. The Devs and Lucas Arts royally screwed up and killed their own success.
SWG was relatively popular at release. Then WoW came along and showed what a popular IP and good game design could really do as far as a customer base. I'm not saying totally changing a game after it is released is a good idea, but SWG was NOT a good Star Wars game from a business perspective. Many, many fans of the IP found it to not be fun, which is why it never gained a lot more customers and then started bleeding customers away.
I've come to the realization a long time ago with regards to IPs, game companies just don't and won't ever "get it". They have MILLIONS and MILLIONS of fans the world over, yet they chase that fan base away. I just don't understand it.
Remember Daron Stinnet, the second executive produce for Star Trek Online from P.E. before they sold out to Cryptic, and the line the rang loud and clear around the STO community? "We are not making a game for Trekkies" I mean seriously... WTH, why would you not make a game for a built in fanbase? You have millions of fans around the globe. Chances of your MMORPG ever getting over 200,000 concurrent monthly paid subscribers are slim to none anyway, so why not make it for a life long dedicated fanbase?
It's sad to see a developer chasing away what would have been a permanent subscriber to SW:TOR.
Actually Bioware is catering to their fanbase. They just aren't catering to the sandbox whiners or the people with wildly unrealistic expectations. If you have played Bioware's RPGs in the past, you should have known exactly what to expect. If you liked those games, you should also like TOR. If not, I don't know why any of you even bother on these forums... You should leave so the actual fans of the game can have meaningful discussions.
Let me repeat it for you all just one more time: This is NOT a sandbox game. This is NOT a flight simulator. This is NOT SWG 2. Thank God!
Why are you so sure you are the majority of the target audience?
With all due respect, you are 100% wrong. At it's peak, after release, SWG was the 2nd most successful MMORPG next to EQ, ever. Then, the CU and NGEs happened. Why are people not playing. Read the article. Read the old SWG threads. I don't have to rehash everything. It's well documented. SWGs is a prime example that when customers have worked their asses off for years for achievements, you don't completely revamp a game and make those achievements meaningless. The Devs and Lucas Arts royally screwed up and killed their own success.
SWG was relatively popular at release. Then WoW came along and showed what a popular IP and good game design could really do as far as a customer base. I'm not saying totally changing a game after it is released is a good idea, but SWG was NOT a good Star Wars game from a business perspective. Many, many fans of the IP found it to not be fun, which is why it never gained a lot more customers and then started bleeding customers away.
Why compare everything with WoW? You can't compare anything to WoW. It's in a league all by itself. Please realize that WoW has more paid monthly concurrent subscribers in North America than all other paid monthly games combined. It's a BILLION dollar a year business by itself. Realize this.. if WoW lost 3/4 of it's subscribers today... it would still have 5x the paid concurrent subscriber base than it's closest competitor, LOTRO with 500,000 subscribers. No other paid subscription MMORPG in North America has been able to sustain 1 million concurrent paid subscribers. So back in the day with SWG maintaining 300,000 subscribers, they were doing exceptionally well. Nothing on the market in North America today can touch LOTRO in concurrent subscribers, much less WoW.
SWGs crafting and harvesting was the absolute best that has been in any MMORPG and I seriously doubt we'll ever see one like they had before the CU/NGE again. It set the standard that no one can touch.
Fear not fanbois, we are not trolls, let's take off your tin foil hat and learn what VAPORWARE is:
"Vaporware is a term used to describe a software or hardware product that is announced by a developer well in advance of release, but which then fails to emerge after having well exceeded the period of development time that was initially claimed or would normally be expected for the development cycle of a similar product."
I've come to the realization a long time ago with regards to IPs, game companies just don't and won't ever "get it". They have MILLIONS and MILLIONS of fans the world over, yet they chase that fan base away. I just don't understand it.
Remember Daron Stinnet, the second executive produce for Star Trek Online from P.E. before they sold out to Cryptic, and the line the rang loud and clear around the STO community? "We are not making a game for Trekkies" I mean seriously... WTH, why would you not make a game for a built in fanbase? You have millions of fans around the globe. Chances of your MMORPG ever getting over 200,000 concurrent monthly paid subscribers are slim to none anyway, so why not make it for a life long dedicated fanbase?
It's sad to see a developer chasing away what would have been a permanent subscriber to SW:TOR.
Actually Bioware is catering to their fanbase. They just aren't catering to the sandbox whiners or the people with wildly unrealistic expectations. If you have played Bioware's RPGs in the past, you should have known exactly what to expect. If you liked those games, you should also like TOR. If not, I don't know why any of you even bother on these forums... You should leave so the actual fans of the game can have meaningful discussions.
Let me repeat it for you all just one more time: This is NOT a sandbox game. This is NOT a flight simulator. This is NOT SWG 2. Thank God!
Why are you so sure you are the majority of the target audience?
Well, let's see. The SWG vets who want SWG2 are definitely NOT the target audience, I think we can agree on that, yes? The game was never intended to be SWG-like.
Now, they have said that they are making a game fans of KOTOR and their other games will like. They have said they are making a game they feel most Star Wars fans will like and that many MMO players should like. Again, this naturally excludes the people who only want SWG2 since the game was never designed for them. I think it largely excludes the people with unreasonable expectations to, as no game is designed for such people.
Beyond that, it seems like most of the people following the game like what they see a lot. There is a very vocal minority, but again those people want SWG2, have unreasonable expectations (and like many fans, bad game design sense), or are just plain ignorant. One cannot reasonably expect to keep those groups happy before launch, though it is possible they'll like the game if they try it. It is certainly not reasonable to try to appease them that much, since their demands are rather silly when placed in context.
With all due respect, you are 100% wrong. At it's peak, after release, SWG was the 2nd most successful MMORPG next to EQ, ever. Then, the CU and NGEs happened. Why are people not playing. Read the article. Read the old SWG threads. I don't have to rehash everything. It's well documented. SWGs is a prime example that when customers have worked their asses off for years for achievements, you don't completely revamp a game and make those achievements meaningless. The Devs and Lucas Arts royally screwed up and killed their own success.
SWG was relatively popular at release. Then WoW came along and showed what a popular IP and good game design could really do as far as a customer base. I'm not saying totally changing a game after it is released is a good idea, but SWG was NOT a good Star Wars game from a business perspective. Many, many fans of the IP found it to not be fun, which is why it never gained a lot more customers and then started bleeding customers away.
Why compare everything with WoW? You can't compare anything to WoW. It's in a league all by itself. Please realize that WoW has more paid monthly concurrent subscribers in North America than all other paid monthly games combined. It's a BILLION dollar a year business by itself. Realize this.. if WoW lost 3/4 of it's subscribers today... it would still have 5x the paid concurrent subscriber base than it's closest competitor, LOTRO with 500,000 subscribers. No other paid subscription MMORPG in North America has been able to sustain 1 million concurrent paid subscribers. So back in the day with SWG maintaining 300,000 subscribers, they were doing exceptionally well. Nothing on the market in North America today can touch LOTRO in concurrent subscribers, much less WoW.
SWGs crafting and harvesting was the absolute best that has been in any MMORPG and I seriously doubt we'll ever see one like they had before the CU/NGE again. It set the standard that no one can touch.
I compare it with WoW because Star Wars is an IP that blows Warcraft out of the water. Star Wars is one of the most insanely popular IPs on the planet. It's a fact that SWG completely failed to capitalize on that. The game as a whole was really not that good when you get right down to it. I'm not saying every part of it was bad, merely that the aggregate was. If it had been a really good game, then it would be more popular than WoW to this day, because the power of the IP would have propelled it forward.
With all due respect, you are 100% wrong. At it's peak, after release, SWG was the 2nd most successful MMORPG next to EQ, ever. Then, the CU and NGEs happened. Why are people not playing. Read the article. Read the old SWG threads. I don't have to rehash everything. It's well documented. SWGs is a prime example that when customers have worked their asses off for years for achievements, you don't completely revamp a game and make those achievements meaningless. The Devs and Lucas Arts royally screwed up and killed their own success.
SWG was relatively popular at release. Then WoW came along and showed what a popular IP and good game design could really do as far as a customer base. I'm not saying totally changing a game after it is released is a good idea, but SWG was NOT a good Star Wars game from a business perspective. Many, many fans of the IP found it to not be fun, which is why it never gained a lot more customers and then started bleeding customers away.
Why compare everything with WoW? You can't compare anything to WoW. It's in a league all by itself. Please realize that WoW has more paid monthly concurrent subscribers in North America than all other paid monthly games combined. It's a BILLION dollar a year business by itself. Realize this.. if WoW lost 3/4 of it's subscribers today... it would still have 5x the paid concurrent subscriber base than it's closest competitor, LOTRO with 500,000 subscribers. No other paid subscription MMORPG in North America has been able to sustain 1 million concurrent paid subscribers. So back in the day with SWG maintaining 300,000 subscribers, they were doing exceptionally well. Nothing on the market in North America today can touch LOTRO in concurrent subscribers, much less WoW.
SWGs crafting and harvesting was the absolute best that has been in any MMORPG and I seriously doubt we'll ever see one like they had before the CU/NGE again. It set the standard that no one can touch.
I compare it with WoW because Star Wars is an IP that blows Warcraft out of the water. Star Wars is one of the most insanely popular IPs on the planet. It's a fact that SWG completely failed to capitalize on that. The game as a whole was really not that good when you get right down to it. I'm not saying every part of it was bad, merely that the aggregate was. If it had been a really good game, then it would be more popular than WoW to this day, because the power of the IP would have propelled it forward.
Ok let me get this straight that I understand you correct. You say:
a) WOW was/is good, because it has 12 million subscriber, therefore making things like WOW is good.
b) SWG was bad, because it had less susbcribers. Some 150-300k.
Personally, as a customer, I could not care less how many people "my" MMO are playing. I only care for what it does. It's the same as if I buy a car or a pair of shoes or a type of chocolate. Does it matter how many others buy car X or shoes Y or chocolate Z? Well, at least not for me. So why should it matter heck how many subscribers WOW has, as a customer? Quality isn't measured by sales, because sales are influenced by a ton of things. So the failure of SWG capitalizes nothing, save that pure sandbox games and buggy games don't sell well.
I have seen very, very few people here who really want SWG 2 or a total sandbox. People have played SWG and like SOME of it's features. So as customers, they naturally want them in their new product. What's not to understand?
Ok let me get this straight that I understand you correct. You say:
a) WOW was/is good, because it has 12 million subscriber, therefore making things like WOW is good.
b) SWG was bad, because it had less susbcribers. Some 150-300k.
Personally, as a customer, I could not care less how many people "my" MMO are playing. I only care for what it does. It's the same as if I buy a car or a pair of shoes or a type of chocolate. Does it matter how many others buy car X or shoes Y or chocolate Z? Well, at least not for me. So why should it matter heck how many subscribers WOW has, as a customer? Quality isn't measured by sales, because sales are influenced by a ton of things. So the failure of SWG capitalizes nothing, save that pure sandbox games and buggy games don't sell well.
I have seen very, very few people here who really want SWG 2 or a total sandbox. People have played SWG and like SOME of it's features. So as customers, they naturally want them in their new product. What's not to understand?
First off...
A) WoW has done a great deal right, as indicated by its 12 million subscriber base. That doesn't mean every game has to be just like WoW to be good, but rather WoW successfully capitalized on its potential customer base as anyone can clearly see.
SWG most definitely did not capitalized on its potential subscriber base, which if anything should be bigger than WoW's. A lot of this had to do with the game design. And yes, it WAS A BAD GAME.
Obviously I'm speaking from a business perspective and/or a perspective of making something that pleases the fanbase as much as possible, where how many people buy the game matters a great deal. Certainly Bioware is concerned about that and are trying to make a game that will appeal to a LOT of people. They care a great deal about the Star Wars fan base and are trying to make a game that will satisfy as many of them as possible (unlike SWG, for example, which either went about that in a very poor way or just wasn't trying to do that at all). Yes, sales are influenced by a lot of things, but with an IP like Star Wars, half of the work is done for you, if not more. That just makes SWG's failure to capitalize on that more pathetic.
Anyhow, yeah, some people just want some of the features of SWG, and like some kind of Frankenstein's Monster, they want to bolt those features onto a game where they don't fit very well. This fits into how most customers have horrible, horrible game design sense. TOR has a pretty focused design philosophy, which is a good thing, and you can't just toss anything in there willy-nilly or the design loses focus and the game suffers. Arenanet had a pretty interested video where they went over this idea regarding Guild Wars 2, actually. Anyhow, beyond that such fans of SWG are relatively small in number and such desires are not where TOR is aimed at.
Actually Bioware is catering to their fanbase. They just aren't catering to the sandbox whiners or the people with wildly unrealistic expectations. If you have played Bioware's RPGs in the past, you should have known exactly what to expect. If you liked those games, you should also like TOR. If not, I don't know why any of you even bother on these forums... You should leave so the actual fans of the game can have meaningful discussions.
Let me repeat it for you all just one more time: This is NOT a sandbox game. This is NOT a flight simulator. This is NOT SWG 2. Thank God!
Huh? How can you speak for all of BioWare's fans? I question whether you've played any of BioWare's games. They aren't mainstream games, but they are popular for that very reason. A lot of BioWare's games have a lot of sandbox features. Most of their games, if not all, allow a lot of character customization.
Mass Effect 2 and Dragon Age, two of the most recent BioWare games, are nothing like WoW gameplay. TOR is clearly headed into the WoW(simple quest focused gameplay later to be replaced by an endless gear grind) direction. Name one BioWare game that is like that? None.
So far I don't think this resembles any BioWare games except for the "promise" of a storyline.
You're only arguement is that you hope this game will be fun. Heck, it seems to me you hope this game is nothing like previous BioWare games, as most of those have some elements of sandbox.
How exactly is this game being catered to previous BioWare fans? I think its being catered to WoW players.
Actually Bioware is catering to their fanbase. They just aren't catering to the sandbox whiners or the people with wildly unrealistic expectations. If you have played Bioware's RPGs in the past, you should have known exactly what to expect. If you liked those games, you should also like TOR. If not, I don't know why any of you even bother on these forums... You should leave so the actual fans of the game can have meaningful discussions.
Let me repeat it for you all just one more time: This is NOT a sandbox game. This is NOT a flight simulator. This is NOT SWG 2. Thank God!
Huh? How can you speak for all of BioWare's fans? I question whether you've played any of BioWare's games. They aren't mainstream games, but they are popular for that very reason. A lot of BioWare's games have a lot of sandbox features. Most of their games, if not all, allow a lot of character customization.
Mass Effect 2 and Dragon Age, two of the most recent BioWare games, are nothing like WoW gameplay. TOR is clearly headed into the WoW(simple quest focused gameplay later to be replaced by an endless gear grind) direction. Name one BioWare game that is like that? None.
So far I don't think this resembles any BioWare games except for the "promise" of a storyline.
You're only arguement is that you hope this game will be fun. Heck, it seems to me you hope this game is nothing like previous BioWare games, as most of those have some elements of sandbox.
How exactly is this game being catered to previous BioWare fans? I think its being catered to WoW players.
If you are going to say TOR has "simple quest-focused gameplay" then I will counter that in that case all RPGs Bioware has ever made have the same thing. Also, I wouldn't make assumptions about an end-game they haven't revealed yet, especially since they've said it will be different. Let's not jump to conclusions, eh?
With all due respect, you are 100% wrong. At it's peak, after release, SWG was the 2nd most successful MMORPG next to EQ, ever. Then, the CU and NGEs happened. Why are people not playing. Read the article. Read the old SWG threads. I don't have to rehash everything. It's well documented. SWGs is a prime example that when customers have worked their asses off for years for achievements, you don't completely revamp a game and make those achievements meaningless. The Devs and Lucas Arts royally screwed up and killed their own success.
SWG was relatively popular at release. Then WoW came along and showed what a popular IP and good game design could really do as far as a customer base.
Classical music was popular once upon a time, and then Justin Bieber came along and showed the world what real music was.
What about this Bioware.
SWTOR has several main selling points: a popular IP, a popular company, and a packed storyline.
Normally I would consider this a shortterm success MMO because of its potential to grab so much of its single player RPG base. However, with the innovative action combat based Tera coming out before TOR, as I believe, and the dynamic and potentially game changing GW probably early summer, the selling points of TOR really look unimpressive in comparison.
Bioware is targeting the single player and console based crowd, but Tera offers action based gameplay that is signature in many console games, and GW2 is sticking with a cheap pay model and a low grind/easy access MMO concept. Furthermore, I think Tera and GW2 will be more successful internationally, than SWTOR.
Its gonna be really tough for TOR to be competitive. I suspect they will capitalize further on their IP, but the problem is their game is so storybased, they will need large profits to inject content at an acceptable rate. And that is a slippery slope.
With all due respect, you are 100% wrong. At it's peak, after release, SWG was the 2nd most successful MMORPG next to EQ, ever. Then, the CU and NGEs happened. Why are people not playing. Read the article. Read the old SWG threads. I don't have to rehash everything. It's well documented. SWGs is a prime example that when customers have worked their asses off for years for achievements, you don't completely revamp a game and make those achievements meaningless. The Devs and Lucas Arts royally screwed up and killed their own success.
SWG was relatively popular at release. Then WoW came along and showed what a popular IP and good game design could really do as far as a customer base.
Classical music was popular once upon a time, and then Justin Bieber came along and showed the world what real music was.
What about this Bioware.
SWTOR has several main selling points: a popular IP, a popular company, and a packed storyline.
Normally I would consider this a shortterm success MMO because of its potential to grab so much of its single player RPG base. However, with the innovative action combat based Tera coming out before TOR, as I believe, and the dynamic and potentially game changing GW probably early summer, the selling points of TOR really look unimpressive in comparison.
Bioware is targeting the single player and console based crowd, but Tera offers action based gameplay that is signature in many console games, and GW2 is sticking with a cheap pay model and a low grind/easy access MMO concept. Furthermore, I think Tera and GW2 will be more successful internationally, than SWTOR.
Its gonna be really tough for TOR to be competitive. I suspect they will capitalize further on their IP, but the problem is their game is so storybased, they will need large profits to inject content at an acceptable rate. And that is a slippery slope.
GW2=F2P game, Meaning people can just play both if they like it.
With all due respect, you are 100% wrong. At it's peak, after release, SWG was the 2nd most successful MMORPG next to EQ, ever. Then, the CU and NGEs happened. Why are people not playing. Read the article. Read the old SWG threads. I don't have to rehash everything. It's well documented. SWGs is a prime example that when customers have worked their asses off for years for achievements, you don't completely revamp a game and make those achievements meaningless. The Devs and Lucas Arts royally screwed up and killed their own success.
SWG was relatively popular at release. Then WoW came along and showed what a popular IP and good game design could really do as far as a customer base.
Classical music was popular once upon a time, and then Justin Bieber came along and showed the world what real music was.
What about this Bioware.
SWTOR has several main selling points: a popular IP, a popular company, and a packed storyline.
Normally I would consider this a shortterm success MMO because of its potential to grab so much of its single player RPG base. However, with the innovative action combat based Tera coming out before TOR, as I believe, and the dynamic and potentially game changing GW probably early summer, the selling points of TOR really look unimpressive in comparison.
Bioware is targeting the single player and console based crowd, but Tera offers action based gameplay that is signature in many console games, and GW2 is sticking with a cheap pay model and a low grind/easy access MMO concept. Furthermore, I think Tera and GW2 will be more successful internationally, than SWTOR.
Its gonna be really tough for TOR to be competitive. I suspect they will capitalize further on their IP, but the problem is their game is so storybased, they will need large profits to inject content at an acceptable rate. And that is a slippery slope.
Here is the bottom line on this entire subject. SWG was a very successful game. In it's day, it was the #2 game on the market. Even in the post WoW release market, not many games can claim 300,000 sustained concurrent subscriber base for a year or longer. Do NOT say SWG was a failure. Saying so, is a lie. It's lasted a lot longer than most games hope to. Does SW:TOR have the opportunity to do well? Yes. Do I think it will do better than WoW. HELL NO! The reason is pre-WoW, gaming wasn't main stream. The MMORPGs were for the pure gamers at heart. WoW came along and greatly affected the playing field and brought in an entire new type of gamer to the MMORPG market, THE CASUAL PLAYER! You no longer needed the "latest computer and components" to play. The difference between WoW and all the other games on the market, if you ask a none gamer "What is an MMORPG?", the answer is likely to be "Isn't that World of Warcraft?" My mother is in 71 years old and even she knows what World of Warcraft is.
Fear not fanbois, we are not trolls, let's take off your tin foil hat and learn what VAPORWARE is:
"Vaporware is a term used to describe a software or hardware product that is announced by a developer well in advance of release, but which then fails to emerge after having well exceeded the period of development time that was initially claimed or would normally be expected for the development cycle of a similar product."
Comments
Maybe he wanted to play Ithorian Jedi, but what you say sounds a hell lot like "thank goodness my wish is in" and you care not about other people's wishes. Quite selfish.
I at least enjoy MMORPGs with a broad selection of things, even if my wish is in, it irritates me to have such a big budget and then have such a few and limited choices. Don't know what's so hard to see about that. I mean yes, maybe we all get to see many new things, which they haven't shown us. But with Daniel Erickson's quote, that does not seem very likely. We all value different things. But why have no ear for the wishes of others? Why only look for what you want and then to hell with the rest? A strange mentality for someone who wants to play alongside other people. Do you in real life work the same: as long you as you get what you want it doesn't matter what anyone else wants?
'Space combat not allowing for free roam' is actually pretty important in many people's opinion.
Don't get me wrong, I like space combat implementation, but I don't really need a flight-simulator to be happy in MMO. I think that BioWare will add much more to space combat in the expansions anyway. But I don't get it, how can people make such a problem of no free-roam at the release? Few months ago we didn't expect any space combat at all. It is just a nice mini-game, not a main-game-content, at least this is how BioWare intend it to be. But as I said, I think they will add free roam in the first expansion anyway.
See this is the type of post that have people who are truly excited for TOR so frustrated.
Let's get this straight shall we. We know what the game is and is not. It seems that the majority of people who is interested in this game understands that even though on a personal level, will not get everything they would like, the game in itself looks very detailed and fun.
It's you the detractors that keep attacking and highjacking threads on various sites that seem to not be able to either comprehend or get past other games that were played, be it a old SW game or some other MMO.
What i see and read is that, most people that is following this game are not anymore of a fanboi or whatever than those that are following GW2 or RIFT. They are excited SW fans and or MMO gamers that are looking for something deeper and more fun than what they see out or coming up in the futrue.
Many people would like to try and change what the product is to what they want and force a company to make the game they want instead of what the devs want, if you look at it that way thats pretty selfish too. Sure freedom is nice but not if forcing that freedom drops the fun value of the game to abysmal levels. First and foremost this is intended to be story driven therefore some freedoms such as free roam might have to be sacrificed because of it.
As for the RL quote about everyone thinking of themselves. Try a job next time, when you and one other person are up for a promotion, who are you really thinking should get it? and if you say even for a second it's the other guy, your full of it plain and simple. in real life it's either you or them, thats how real life works. it's not nice, it's not fair and it's sure as heck not friendly. Sure it appears that way on the surface but deep down it's not. Mess up and the comapny you work for doesn't care. You should have made sure you didn't. So yes, in RL i'm very selfish, i try to be more friendly in game then in RL because i'm there for fun.
As for games, yes your not gonna get everything you want. but we gotta make suggestions to the devs not try and force changes onto them. We are not the sculptor so we shouldn't be taking chisels to their sculptors.
OKay thats all. sorry if this seems rushed, i'm really low on time.
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.
I kind of like the graphics , I don't know what the big deal is.
The scenary looks good. Maybe the PC's and NPC's could look better, but I think it looks ok.
"When it comes to GW2 any game is fair game"
I've come to the realization a long time ago with regards to IPs, game companies just don't and won't ever "get it". They have MILLIONS and MILLIONS of fans the world over, yet they chase that fan base away. I just don't understand it.
Remember Daron Stinnet, the second executive produce for Star Trek Online from P.E. before they sold out to Cryptic, and the line the rang loud and clear around the STO community? "We are not making a game for Trekkies" I mean seriously... WTH, why would you not make a game for a built in fanbase? You have millions of fans around the globe. Chances of your MMORPG ever getting over 200,000 concurrent monthly paid subscribers are slim to none anyway, so why not make it for a life long dedicated fanbase?
It's sad to see a developer chasing away what would have been a permanent subscriber to SW:TOR.
Fear not fanbois, we are not trolls, let's take off your tin foil hat and learn what VAPORWARE is:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaporware
"Vaporware is a term used to describe a software or hardware product that is announced by a developer well in advance of release, but which then fails to emerge after having well exceeded the period of development time that was initially claimed or would normally be expected for the development cycle of a similar product."
Actually Bioware is catering to their fanbase. They just aren't catering to the sandbox whiners or the people with wildly unrealistic expectations. If you have played Bioware's RPGs in the past, you should have known exactly what to expect. If you liked those games, you should also like TOR. If not, I don't know why any of you even bother on these forums... You should leave so the actual fans of the game can have meaningful discussions.
Let me repeat it for you all just one more time: This is NOT a sandbox game. This is NOT a flight simulator. This is NOT SWG 2. Thank God!
That's the problem. They are catering to THEIR fanbase. They are not catering to the 10s of millions of Star Wars fans. The reason why Blizzard is so wildly successful is that they understood the "WARCRAFT", "Diablo", and "Star Craft"markets. BioWare had their own IPs where they could have gone after a truly great MMORPG on their own right. Instead, they decided to opt for Star Wars instead. As such, it puzzles me with the direction they are headed. Why the stream lined focused story line for IP with a wide open set of potential? I believe they are missing the boat on what could have been a truly special MMORPG. Am I saying I won't buy this game or not play this game? HELL NO! I'll be there. Like I said in my orignal post, I don't see why BioWare is so bent on chasing the Star Wars fan base away.
Fear not fanbois, we are not trolls, let's take off your tin foil hat and learn what VAPORWARE is:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaporware
"Vaporware is a term used to describe a software or hardware product that is announced by a developer well in advance of release, but which then fails to emerge after having well exceeded the period of development time that was initially claimed or would normally be expected for the development cycle of a similar product."
They are catering to star wars fans... SWG catered to sand box fans. Simple as that.
This game is not a sandbox and this site is a huge sandbox advocate. Of course you will see people complaining about it here.
I am a star wars fan , NOT a bioware fan, and I am excited about this game and like most of what I have seen thus far.
Only thing I didn't like was the singleplayer space. Why? i want pvp in space, I don't mind the rail shooter, but why not make it multiplayer and why not have an option for Open world space with PVP?
That is my only gripe, but since I am not playing this game for a space sim. I couldn't care less, and I am sure they will find a way to work those things in later on.
I wouldn't care if the game had space or not.
And if what you say is true , than how comes the 10's of millions of people are not playing swg? Could it be because they don't like sandbox? Maybe it is an aquired taste for some people? At the most swg ever had was 200k subs and once the game went live those numbers dropped rather abruptly.
"When it comes to GW2 any game is fair game"
Then why do you keep coming back?
http://www.massively.com/2010/06/01/the-game-archaeologist-and-the-star-of-the-galaxies-the-history/
With all due respect, you are 100% wrong. At it's peak, after release, SWG was the 2nd most successful MMORPG next to EQ, ever. Then, the CU and NGEs happened. Why are people not playing. Read the article. Read the old SWG threads. I don't have to rehash everything. It's well documented. SWGs is a prime example that when customers have worked their asses off for years for achievements, you don't completely revamp a game and make those achievements meaningless. The Devs and Lucas Arts royally screwed up and killed their own success.
Fear not fanbois, we are not trolls, let's take off your tin foil hat and learn what VAPORWARE is:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaporware
"Vaporware is a term used to describe a software or hardware product that is announced by a developer well in advance of release, but which then fails to emerge after having well exceeded the period of development time that was initially claimed or would normally be expected for the development cycle of a similar product."
SWG was relatively popular at release. Then WoW came along and showed what a popular IP and good game design could really do as far as a customer base. I'm not saying totally changing a game after it is released is a good idea, but SWG was NOT a good Star Wars game from a business perspective. Many, many fans of the IP found it to not be fun, which is why it never gained a lot more customers and then started bleeding customers away.
Why are you so sure you are the majority of the target audience?
Why compare everything with WoW? You can't compare anything to WoW. It's in a league all by itself. Please realize that WoW has more paid monthly concurrent subscribers in North America than all other paid monthly games combined. It's a BILLION dollar a year business by itself. Realize this.. if WoW lost 3/4 of it's subscribers today... it would still have 5x the paid concurrent subscriber base than it's closest competitor, LOTRO with 500,000 subscribers. No other paid subscription MMORPG in North America has been able to sustain 1 million concurrent paid subscribers. So back in the day with SWG maintaining 300,000 subscribers, they were doing exceptionally well. Nothing on the market in North America today can touch LOTRO in concurrent subscribers, much less WoW.
SWGs crafting and harvesting was the absolute best that has been in any MMORPG and I seriously doubt we'll ever see one like they had before the CU/NGE again. It set the standard that no one can touch.
Fear not fanbois, we are not trolls, let's take off your tin foil hat and learn what VAPORWARE is:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaporware
"Vaporware is a term used to describe a software or hardware product that is announced by a developer well in advance of release, but which then fails to emerge after having well exceeded the period of development time that was initially claimed or would normally be expected for the development cycle of a similar product."
Well, let's see. The SWG vets who want SWG2 are definitely NOT the target audience, I think we can agree on that, yes? The game was never intended to be SWG-like.
Now, they have said that they are making a game fans of KOTOR and their other games will like. They have said they are making a game they feel most Star Wars fans will like and that many MMO players should like. Again, this naturally excludes the people who only want SWG2 since the game was never designed for them. I think it largely excludes the people with unreasonable expectations to, as no game is designed for such people.
Beyond that, it seems like most of the people following the game like what they see a lot. There is a very vocal minority, but again those people want SWG2, have unreasonable expectations (and like many fans, bad game design sense), or are just plain ignorant. One cannot reasonably expect to keep those groups happy before launch, though it is possible they'll like the game if they try it. It is certainly not reasonable to try to appease them that much, since their demands are rather silly when placed in context.
I compare it with WoW because Star Wars is an IP that blows Warcraft out of the water. Star Wars is one of the most insanely popular IPs on the planet. It's a fact that SWG completely failed to capitalize on that. The game as a whole was really not that good when you get right down to it. I'm not saying every part of it was bad, merely that the aggregate was. If it had been a really good game, then it would be more popular than WoW to this day, because the power of the IP would have propelled it forward.
Ok let me get this straight that I understand you correct. You say:
a) WOW was/is good, because it has 12 million subscriber, therefore making things like WOW is good.
b) SWG was bad, because it had less susbcribers. Some 150-300k.
Personally, as a customer, I could not care less how many people "my" MMO are playing. I only care for what it does. It's the same as if I buy a car or a pair of shoes or a type of chocolate. Does it matter how many others buy car X or shoes Y or chocolate Z? Well, at least not for me. So why should it matter heck how many subscribers WOW has, as a customer? Quality isn't measured by sales, because sales are influenced by a ton of things. So the failure of SWG capitalizes nothing, save that pure sandbox games and buggy games don't sell well.
I have seen very, very few people here who really want SWG 2 or a total sandbox. People have played SWG and like SOME of it's features. So as customers, they naturally want them in their new product. What's not to understand?
First off...
A) WoW has done a great deal right, as indicated by its 12 million subscriber base. That doesn't mean every game has to be just like WoW to be good, but rather WoW successfully capitalized on its potential customer base as anyone can clearly see.
Obviously I'm speaking from a business perspective and/or a perspective of making something that pleases the fanbase as much as possible, where how many people buy the game matters a great deal. Certainly Bioware is concerned about that and are trying to make a game that will appeal to a LOT of people. They care a great deal about the Star Wars fan base and are trying to make a game that will satisfy as many of them as possible (unlike SWG, for example, which either went about that in a very poor way or just wasn't trying to do that at all). Yes, sales are influenced by a lot of things, but with an IP like Star Wars, half of the work is done for you, if not more. That just makes SWG's failure to capitalize on that more pathetic.
Anyhow, yeah, some people just want some of the features of SWG, and like some kind of Frankenstein's Monster, they want to bolt those features onto a game where they don't fit very well. This fits into how most customers have horrible, horrible game design sense. TOR has a pretty focused design philosophy, which is a good thing, and you can't just toss anything in there willy-nilly or the design loses focus and the game suffers. Arenanet had a pretty interested video where they went over this idea regarding Guild Wars 2, actually. Anyhow, beyond that such fans of SWG are relatively small in number and such desires are not where TOR is aimed at.
Huh? How can you speak for all of BioWare's fans? I question whether you've played any of BioWare's games. They aren't mainstream games, but they are popular for that very reason. A lot of BioWare's games have a lot of sandbox features. Most of their games, if not all, allow a lot of character customization.
Mass Effect 2 and Dragon Age, two of the most recent BioWare games, are nothing like WoW gameplay. TOR is clearly headed into the WoW(simple quest focused gameplay later to be replaced by an endless gear grind) direction. Name one BioWare game that is like that? None.
So far I don't think this resembles any BioWare games except for the "promise" of a storyline.
You're only arguement is that you hope this game will be fun. Heck, it seems to me you hope this game is nothing like previous BioWare games, as most of those have some elements of sandbox.
How exactly is this game being catered to previous BioWare fans? I think its being catered to WoW players.
If you are going to say TOR has "simple quest-focused gameplay" then I will counter that in that case all RPGs Bioware has ever made have the same thing. Also, I wouldn't make assumptions about an end-game they haven't revealed yet, especially since they've said it will be different. Let's not jump to conclusions, eh?
Uhm, as one famous poste in this thread said... see you in game.
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Sorcery must persist, the future is the Citadel
Classical music was popular once upon a time, and then Justin Bieber came along and showed the world what real music was.
What about this Bioware.
SWTOR has several main selling points: a popular IP, a popular company, and a packed storyline.
Normally I would consider this a shortterm success MMO because of its potential to grab so much of its single player RPG base. However, with the innovative action combat based Tera coming out before TOR, as I believe, and the dynamic and potentially game changing GW probably early summer, the selling points of TOR really look unimpressive in comparison.
Bioware is targeting the single player and console based crowd, but Tera offers action based gameplay that is signature in many console games, and GW2 is sticking with a cheap pay model and a low grind/easy access MMO concept. Furthermore, I think Tera and GW2 will be more successful internationally, than SWTOR.
Its gonna be really tough for TOR to be competitive. I suspect they will capitalize further on their IP, but the problem is their game is so storybased, they will need large profits to inject content at an acceptable rate. And that is a slippery slope.
GW2=F2P game, Meaning people can just play both if they like it.
TERA=The second coming of AION.
I don't care about innovation I care about fun.
Here is the bottom line on this entire subject. SWG was a very successful game. In it's day, it was the #2 game on the market. Even in the post WoW release market, not many games can claim 300,000 sustained concurrent subscriber base for a year or longer. Do NOT say SWG was a failure. Saying so, is a lie. It's lasted a lot longer than most games hope to. Does SW:TOR have the opportunity to do well? Yes. Do I think it will do better than WoW. HELL NO! The reason is pre-WoW, gaming wasn't main stream. The MMORPGs were for the pure gamers at heart. WoW came along and greatly affected the playing field and brought in an entire new type of gamer to the MMORPG market, THE CASUAL PLAYER! You no longer needed the "latest computer and components" to play. The difference between WoW and all the other games on the market, if you ask a none gamer "What is an MMORPG?", the answer is likely to be "Isn't that World of Warcraft?" My mother is in 71 years old and even she knows what World of Warcraft is.
Fear not fanbois, we are not trolls, let's take off your tin foil hat and learn what VAPORWARE is:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaporware
"Vaporware is a term used to describe a software or hardware product that is announced by a developer well in advance of release, but which then fails to emerge after having well exceeded the period of development time that was initially claimed or would normally be expected for the development cycle of a similar product."