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oh. i think i figured out why i like ff14 as much as i do.
itchmon
Member RarePosts: 1,999
In ff14, crafting is absolutely essential to the economy and most gear will come from crafting.
in eve, crafting is absolutely essential and most gear comes from crafting.
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in ff14, there is a story to guide your character, and repeatable pve missions to accomplish if you so wish, but you are essentially free to explore the world as you wish.
in eve, there is a story to guide your character, and repeatable pve missions to accomplish if you so wish, but you are essentially free to explore the world as you wish.
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in ff4 your character can take on multiple roles and since you use one character, your reputation is important which helps cut down on asshats.
in eve, your character can take on multiple roles and since you use one character, your reputation is important which would cut down on asshats, if it weren't for the fact that in certain situations in eve asshattery is a huge plus.
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in ffxi the controls and such are a barrier for entry, this causes some people to go OMG CANNOT UNDERSTAND and the rest of the community goes, ok bye.
in eve the controls are only the beginning of the barrier for entry and this causes some people to go OMG CANNOT UNDERSTAND and the rest of the community goes ok, bye.
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just noticed it now, but it really does have quite a few similarities with eve. ofc it has a lot of differences as well (it has levels and eve does not, there's a biggy) but overall------ i am surprised.
no wonder i like both /grin
see you in new eden, in eorzea and (probably!) defending this on the boards here.
Itch
edit for great spellingz
RIP Ribbitribbitt you are missed, kid.
Currently Playing EVE, ESO
Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and not clothed.
Dwight D Eisenhower
My optimism wears heavy boots and is loud.
Henry Rollins
Comments
Basically you like games that are so frustrating to the average person because it gives you something to look down your nose about?
"LAWL you're upset that the crappy control scheme/insanely confusing system is hard to understand? GO BACK TO WOW NOOB!"
The sleeper awakes...and rides his dirtbike to the mall.
Nice EVE analogies lol
The game will be mean and unforgiving! XD
One term to describe every individual thing on that list: Unapologetically Epic.
You can either handle a game that runs that way or you can't, and indeed EVE Online has that in common with FFXIV.
Truth be told, I think EVE Online is a bit more ruthless than Final Fantasy XIV. For example:
At least Square-Enix is trying to meet the casuals halfway by adding a hotbar, guildleves restricted to RL time, and a fatigue system that slows leveling progress restricted to RL time.
You can probably start a character in Final Fantasy XIV after it's been running for a few years into it and still feel like you can be reletively competitive in the end game. There's no max level in EVE Online, you'll never catch up to the fat cats because your advancement is completely based on RL time, and the economy is built in such a way that the rich just get richer off of the players below them. You say you want to drive a capital ship? You better know people in high places, or that'll be forever beyond your reach.
In EVE Online, you will get ganked, for fun, by the players above you, and perhaps lose everything you have in the process. There's no PvP in Final Fantasy XIV, yet, and when it does get added you're not going to lose nearly as much in participating.
no brain, no gain.
I'd just like to point out that there's a massive difference between intellectual challenge and tedium via bad game design. If you're willing to put up with the later, that may make you more patient than the next person (or you're just hooked on the rush of endorphins you get when you think you can prove yourself superior to others somehow), but it is not a sign of greater intellect by any stretch of the imagination.
And I'd like to point out that pulling the bad game design and tedium bogeymen out thin air and shoving them in the direction of FFXIV in order to defend your unwillingness to adapt does little to vindicate your claims of understanding intelligence.
And I'd like to point out that use of ad hominems is a poor way to get others take your arguments seriously. I never even mentioned FFXIV, nor my own gameplay habits.
I agree, FFXIV is a good game but it dose not require a superior from of intellectual capacity to comprehend just the patients to lean the system.
It is very frustrating to see that people take whatever chance they can to undercut different subsets of the same community to either enhance their ego or just be complete dillholes. As gamers we seek the same thing enjoyment in a game that sets us outside our own reality, weather that game is story guided and quest driven or story guided and a find out for yourself type game. Both can be viable forms of entertainment if done properly and one is not superior to the other it just reaches a different subset of players. I do a lot of thinking on my own time and prefer for a game to take me adrift in its story so i can get lost in something thats not real, and yes in case your wondering WoW has lost its flair.
We go trough life with many yet there is a time we must walk our path alone.
And I'd like to point out that just because you don't like an observation of a thing you did doesn't make it ad hominem. Ad hominem is attempting to settle an argument by undermining the individual. What I did here was point out that you were performing an ad hominem attack on FFXIV by attempting to undermine it with "bad design" (what makes it bad? because you said it was) and "tedious" (what makes it tedious? because you said it was). That you made these claims established an unwillingness to adapt solely by the nature of the conviction that would be required to hold these views, "I'm don't feel I need to adapt because this design is 'bad' and 'tedious' in my view."
Ad hominem translates to "to the man" - in other words an attack against an individual you are arguing with, so making one against a game is impossible by definition. I can't argue with a game.
I think you were trying to point out that I was "begging the question" which is simply not true because I made no mention of FFXIV in my original post on this thread. I was making a point about games in general. Because I wasn't talking about a specific game or mechanic, I did nothing to justify your personal attacks at me (not that anything could have).
So, you weren't directing that to Final Fantasy XIV even though you're here on a Final Fantasy XIV forum participating in a Final Fantasy XIV discussion? Very well, overlooking that you appear to have tossed the context out the window to save your own skin, two can play at that game.
I was pointing pointing out that calling a game a "bad design" and "tedious" was a poor excuse for not wanting to adapt, and the "you" was being used academically. Your original point was defeated without specifically directing criticism to you, and now you're attempting to sidetrack us by insisting that was a personal attack.
Incidentally, while you may argue that "ad hominems is a poor way to get others to take your argument seriously," they are not, strictly speaking, fallacies if they do apply to the matter at hand. As wikipedia puts it, "the ad hominem is not always fallacious, for in some instances questions of personal conduct, character, motives, etc., are legitimate and relevant to the issue." That an individual is not wiling to learn therefore rejects Final Fantasy XIV's interface as "tedious" and "bad design" is core to the issue here. The very second such an individual would have dove behind "ad hominem" as an excuse, they were not conducting themselves logically.
Ad hominem abuse
Ad hominem abuse (also called personal abuse or personal attacks) usually involves insulting or belittling one's opponent in order to invalidate his or her argument, but can also involve pointing out factual but ostensible character flaws or actions which are irrelevant to the opponent's argument. This tactic is logically fallacious because insults and even true negative facts about the opponent's personal character have nothing to do with the logical merits of the opponent's arguments or assertions.
You guys are running elite grammar nazi on another cylinder.
Lol, I'm afraid you've got it all wrong. I was responding to a post (which also didn't mention FFXIV) claiming "no brain no gain" which was itself responding to a post pointing out how people sometimes like to cling to games that are tedious to reinforce their elitism. I just wanted to make the point that more tedious =/= more intellectually challenging. This could be on any forum thread and I would have attacked the same post in the same way, so that's irrelevant.
Some games have simply poor design choices that make gameplay more tedious in a way that may not have even been intended by the developers. If a game has pointless tedium that do not work toward the overall goals the game developers set for it, then that is pretty much by definition, bad design.
Your response to me which basically boiled down to "well, you're just lazy" is a personal attack - my points have nothing to do with me as a person. If you'd said "well people who think so may just be unwilling to adapt" - well, I'd have asked why should anyone have to adapt to poor game design - this is an entertainment medium after all - but atleast that wouldn't have been a personal attack. I didn't report you or anything though - you just thought I was putting down the game and got excited - no harm done.
Please understand that, on these forums, we hear, "THIS GUI SUCKS BECAUSE IT'S NOT LIKE WORLD OF WARCRAFT, THE GAME I ALREADY KNOW" a lot. It seems to be the bane of the Final Fantasy series' existance, as Final Fantasy XI had a similar reception. It works just fine for the rest of us who enjoy the game, so we can only scratch our heads and say, "it seems you're not willing to exert the mental effort needed to learn it as we have- are you unintelligent?" It's a fair accusation.
Consequentally, when you come along and say what you did, well, there was really no other way to reply to you than what we normally say. Maybe it offended you, but the thing is, getting offended is easy. A person can get offended over anything they want, they just declare, "I don't like that!" It doesn't make it logical or fair. It doesn't make it grounds for claiming ad hominem does not fairly apply to the logic of the issue.
The Manual. A small to medium sized booklet that explains how things work. Read it. Learn it. Apply it.
I'll give you that there are certain exceptions where discussion of a person's character individually might be acceptable. This was not one of them. The topic of my credibility was not the topic of discussion. The topic I was addressing was whether unnecessarily overdrawn elements of gameplay (which I can only describe as tedium). My argument had nothing to do with anyone's unwillingness to learn, least of all my own - and once again, not necessarily anything to do with FFXIV or it's UI (the later of which came out of left field).
That's not what I was talking about. It's quite possible to put unnecessary grind or other tedious tasks in a game, or ways to make it less accessible even to those who've read the manual and understand the system.
Not a fan of eve I don't think it required any real brains like so many eve players seem to think they have.I found it boring.-Plenty of other mmogs are and were way more hardcore than eve is,was,or would be.I really find it funny when ppl talk about how hard core eve is when your gainin skill offline lol.
Hard core to me would be no map,xp loss on death,and gear drop on death so basically alot of early Eq1
I understand that flame wars come easy, especially in forums like this, and there are always trolls about.
I disagree that it's okay to accuse someone of being unintelligent because they dislike some aspect of a game for what could be a myriad of reasons, many having nothing to do with intellectual ability or attention span, but I won't push it further.
I was not offended - if I got personally offended everytime someone tried to belittle me on this forum I'd spend my whole life sobbing in a corner lol. I only pointed out the use of ad hominem because I take logical form quite seriously, even if most people on forums like these don't. In this case, I believe a fallacy was committed on your part, and I won't withdraw that assertion, but it's a forgivable offense. Everyone does them from time to time even without realizing it. I probably have used plenty myself at times.
See, now I don't think it's ad hominem to make the argument that I did, when you take into context the greater Final Fantasy XIV trapping of this forum. I also don't like it when people dive behind ad hominem as a shield to avoid defending their position. However, we've sidetracked the thread enough with that, so lets call it a draw and move on.
I can explain my thinking to you in pm's if you like
-but you're right, I don't wish to derail the thread any further. My apologies.
Yeah I find it amusing that people think FFXIV is requires more thought and is all hardcore just because the UI sucks. LOL. As stated there is def a different between intended challenge and bad game design. FFXIV looks pretty though... still might play it just because of the utter lack of nothing else that interests me out there. And the recent information that there is a ton of updates coming is a bit reassuring. We will see though ^^
You make some questionable statements regarding the similarities between Eve and FFXIV. Perhaps most overt in your comparison is the fact that Eve is a game that is developed where FFXIV is still in developent and in need of much work. Oh, do not take my thoughts on this matter...or those here at MMORPG.Com. Check online and you will find similar concepts, for example,
"A lot of work needs to be done to improve the general user experience, and I hope that Square Enix will listen to their soon-to-be consumers as in its current state Final Fantasy XIV is not worth the buying price yet alone the monthly fee. Considering the game is less than a month away from shipping, that's not a good thing." This is the view of many previews and concerns of a lot of sites but feel free to find the one that suits you.
http://www.onrpg.com/MMO/Final-Fantasy-XIV/interview/Final-Fantasy-XIV-Beta-Preview-The-Game-So-Far
Nevertheless, it is good you found two games to your likeings and I can only hope that as FFXIV...develops more people may be able to afford to purchuse a PC that will run it and find the same things you have found.
Unnecessary grind. i rofld.. tedious? i rofld again! Every mmo has its own grind, some more than others. And all mmorpgs are tedious at one point or another. and if its just soooooooo tedious. Then you obviously shouldn't play it. Don't really care what you call bad game design. some people hate chocolate.
i said no brain, no gain basicly because i agreed with the OP. Both games have a learning curve that if you don't get and don't bother learning. You don't really have any business being in the game anyway.
So there's no distinction between some grind and excessive grind in your eyes? And yeah, actually I was arguing that you shouldn't play such a game, because it's poor design (a term I gave my definition for everyone in the thread to see - not some whim). That chocolate analogy is weak in the context of the definition I set forth (which you're welcome to challenge with your own, but I have a feeling you aren't planning on having a coherent argument with me).
And again, I don't get where the "brain" comes in, because you're talking about effort, not intellectual ability. You could be a genius, but if you don't see proper incentive to do something, you may judge it not worth doing.
Of course, if a developer has the goal of making their game what most people would consider grindy, and they are fine with that - I have no reason to tell any player not to play, if that's what they enjoy.