I think the fanbois are gonna ruin this game for me. There's no subjectivity coming from you lot. You sound like those retarded f-tards in Horizons when that came out.
There isn't any objectivity coming from the other direction either. Besides you should really judge a game based on your own feelings and not what others do or say. Because honestly that's silly.
I personally love MMORPG because if I need to I can always find something to get pissed off about. Though I always root for the side getting bashed. IE the game.
You wanted my time, so I played you. You wanted my money, I forked it over. You wanted my soul, I gave it willingly. Not to complain... but when do I get my end of the deal? And no, I don't want your flippin' carrot. If you can't do that give me back my youth and keep the change. Why don't you try chasing your own damn carrot for a change? I'll gladly hold the stick.
I think the fanbois are gonna ruin this game for me. There's no subjectivity coming from you lot. You sound like those retarded f-tards in Horizons when that came out.
There isn't any objectivity coming from the other direction either. Besides you should really judge a game based on your own feelings and not what others do or say. Because honestly that's silly.
I personally love MMORPG because if I need to I can always find something to get pissed off about. Though I always root for the side getting bashed. IE the game.
The reason that most professional reviews tend to be positively biased is because you generally want the person reviewing the game to be a representation of the target audience. That way they can list off, and explain all of the things which they find enjoyable about the game in addition to pointing out areas where they had criticism.
If you aren't reading a review to hear about what that person thought made product/game/etc. worth buying then I guess you just read it because you think the reviewer is a good representation of your taste. I don't know about you, but the average poster on mmorpg.com might not be that for me.
I'd rather read a positive review, see what is fun about a game and then if it doesn't sell me I know I probably won't be interested in that game.
if you read an entirely negative review all you see is one person's nerdrage. Like the person with the review on this forum with 0/10 for controls, 2/10 for game play and then like 4/10 for a total score for this game. I mean talk about not having any perspective on MMO's in general (that guy either has no imagination, hasn't played many MMO's, or both). Yet that is what you get on these forums.
There isn't any objectivity coming from the other direction either. Besides you should really judge a game based on your own feelings and not what others do or say. Because honestly that's silly.
I personally love MMORPG because if I need to I can always find something to get pissed off about. Though I always root for the side getting bashed. IE the game.
The reason that most professional reviews tend to be positively biased is because you generally want the person reviewing the game to be a representation of the target audience. That way they can list off, and explain all of the things which they find enjoyable about the game in addition to pointing out areas where they had criticism.
If you aren't reading a review to hear about what that person thought made product/game/etc. worth buying then I guess you just read it because you think the reviewer is a good representation of your taste. I don't know about you, but the average poster on mmorpg.com might not be that for me.
I'd rather read a positive review, see what is fun about a game and then if it doesn't sell me I know I probably won't be interested in that game.
if you read an entirely negative review all you see is one person's nerdrage. Like the person with the review on this forum with 0/10 for controls, 2/10 for game play and then like 4/10 for a total score for this game. I mean talk about not having any perspective on MMO's in general (that guy either has no imagination, hasn't played many MMO's, or both). Yet that is what you get on these forums.
I think you missed my sarcasm. I was always bad at it. Anyway as it were, I agree with you.
You wanted my time, so I played you. You wanted my money, I forked it over. You wanted my soul, I gave it willingly. Not to complain... but when do I get my end of the deal? And no, I don't want your flippin' carrot. If you can't do that give me back my youth and keep the change. Why don't you try chasing your own damn carrot for a change? I'll gladly hold the stick.
To the people that seem upset about the UI design choice criticisms and keep wanting to tell people to go away if they don't like the game you seem to be missing the point of these comments. The people WANT to like the game they WANT to play it but they find that this or some other particular issue is for them a problem and they would like to see it addressed.
My house has running water and is a very nice house but if some one thought a better design would be to go out the back door and get water out of the river I might consider it if there were good sound environmental reasons for it. But, I doubt I would agree to the need to build a bucket from scratch every time I did need to get some water.
I want companies and developers to have vision and to not be easily swayed by public opinion and to stick with their beliefs. But, they need to have an open mind and consider that sometimes a good idea was just a good idea and the actual idea in real life is a dud and needs to be rethought. For FF XIV right now it appears that much of the UI gets in the way of the game which is a shame.
To the people that seem upset about the UI design choice criticisms and keep wanting to tell people to go away if they don't like the game you seem to be missing the point of these comments. The people WANT to like the game they WANT to play it but they find that this or some other particular issue is for them a problem and they would like to see it addressed.
My house has running water and is a very nice house but if some one thought a better design would be to go out the back door and get water out of the river I might consider it if there were good sound environmental reasons for it. But, I doubt I would agree to the need to build a bucket from scratch every time I did need to get some water.
I want companies and developers to have vision and to not be easily swayed by public opinion and to stick with their beliefs. But, they need to have an open mind and consider that sometimes a good idea was just a good idea and the actual idea in real life is a dud and needs to be rethought. For FF XIV right now it appears that much of the UI gets in the way of the game which is a shame.
If they WANT to like and WANT to play it then they will. There is no point complaining about it. If they really wanted to play so badly that's all they had to say. I'm mean really? Is it THAT hard?
So I kind of doubt that that is their motivation. I have NEVER complained about a game. I post on the forums while I think about joining, check things out gain information. Please not INFORMATION not opinions, and decide whether the game is for me. When a chance to test the game comes out then I will try it.
Also you seem to forget the mass exodus this game had with people saying they were leaving because of the Fatigue System and they hadn't even played yet. There will always be reasons to leave a game. Therefore they will leave. No if ands or buts. The people who can deal with the game as it is will play. The game will change slowly and surely as all games do with time. More people will come and more people will go. There is no reason to complain about these things.
If you don't like it now, come back in 6 months. Don't like it then come back in 2 years. If you think the game is going to flop in 6 months, don't waste your money. People are making this mega complicated.
You wanted my time, so I played you. You wanted my money, I forked it over. You wanted my soul, I gave it willingly. Not to complain... but when do I get my end of the deal? And no, I don't want your flippin' carrot. If you can't do that give me back my youth and keep the change. Why don't you try chasing your own damn carrot for a change? I'll gladly hold the stick.
To the people that seem upset about the UI design choice criticisms and keep wanting to tell people to go away if they don't like the game you seem to be missing the point of these comments. The people WANT to like the game they WANT to play it but they find that this or some other particular issue is for them a problem and they would like to see it addressed.
My house has running water and is a very nice house but if some one thought a better design would be to go out the back door and get water out of the river I might consider it if there were good sound environmental reasons for it. But, I doubt I would agree to the need to build a bucket from scratch every time I did need to get some water.
I want companies and developers to have vision and to not be easily swayed by public opinion and to stick with their beliefs. But, they need to have an open mind and consider that sometimes a good idea was just a good idea and the actual idea in real life is a dud and needs to be rethought. For FF XIV right now it appears that much of the UI gets in the way of the game which is a shame.
If they WANT to like and WANT to play it then they will. There is no point complaining about it. If they really wanted to play so badly that's all they had to say. I'm mean really? Is it THAT hard?
So I kind of doubt that that is their motivation. I have NEVER complained about a game. I post on the forums while I think about joining, check things out gain information. Please not INFORMATION not opinions, and decide whether the game is for me. When a chance to test the game comes out then I will try it.
Also you seem to forget the mass exodus this game had with people saying they were leaving because of the Fatigue System and they hadn't even played yet. There will always be reasons to leave a game. Therefore they will leave. No if ands or buts. The people who can deal with the game as it is will play. The game will change slowly and surely as all games do with time. More people will come and more people will go. There is no reason to complain about these things.
If you don't like it now, come back in 6 months. Don't like it then come back in 2 years. If you think the game is going to flop in 6 months, don't waste your money. People are making this mega complicated.
I certainly understand your point but I think you have over simplified it. I certainly want to like my wife even though she makes it impossible at times and complaining about it certainly is pointless.
Some people will see criticism as simple complaints and to others they feel that they are more along the lines of constructive suggestions or comments. With something that is optional like paying for and playing a game I think feed back to the community and the developers has some value but it does need to be based on something and not simply a whine about not liking something.
First, to Geldonyetich, let me say that I really appreciate your ability to articulate what I find myself thinking a LOT with regard to how people approach gaming, yet seldom am able to form the words out of my own frustration.
What I think is fundamental here is the question: At what point does a game just not suit a gamer? All too often, I see people complaining about this or that feature-- or the lack thereof-- and I wonder "Just what sort of game are you looking for?" While there's been a lot of genre mixing over the last decade or so, I believe that there are still discrete genres. I mean, if a person wants an FPS, play an FPS, for example.
The same goes for interfaces. An interface is a feature, therefore, it should be considered when weighing a decision to play or not play the game. Even if the interface is a superficial matter in the grand scheme of things, at some point, one needs to decide whether it's going to keep them away and then be done with it. I prefer a char-broiled hamburger over pan-fried. Do I stand at the counter at McDonald's and declare that I'm not going to budge until they grill me a Big Mac while insulting the other patrons for their preference? Of course not. I simply go where I know my preferences will be catered to, like Burger King or Dairy Queen.
"You'll never win an argument with an idiot because he is too stupid to recognize his own defeat." ~Anonymous
I certainly understand your point but I think you have over simplified it. I certainly want to like my wife even though she makes it impossible at times and complaining about it certainly is pointless.
Some people will see criticism as simple complaints and to others they feel that they are more along the lines of constructive suggestions or comments. With something that is optional like paying for and playing a game I think feed back to the community and the developers has some value but it does need to be based on something and not simply a whine about not liking something.
I haven't seen many reviews of the game that weren't whining however. If a review doesn't enlighten me then it is in fact useless.
If your wife is complaining about the broken sink you have been informed that you either a) the sink is broken or b) didn't fix it like you were supposed to.
Plus your wife is different, she is complaining straight to you. If they were saying this stuff to the SE Development team it would be more similar. But it's more like your wife complaining about how your feet smell to some random person on the internet. That's not going to help your feet stench.
You wanted my time, so I played you. You wanted my money, I forked it over. You wanted my soul, I gave it willingly. Not to complain... but when do I get my end of the deal? And no, I don't want your flippin' carrot. If you can't do that give me back my youth and keep the change. Why don't you try chasing your own damn carrot for a change? I'll gladly hold the stick.
First, to Geldonyetich, let me say that I really appreciate your ability to articulate what I find myself thinking a LOT with regard to how people approach gaming, yet seldom am able to form the words out of my own frustration.
What I think is fundamental here is the question: At what point does a game just not suit a gamer? All too often, I see people complaining about this or that feature-- or the lack thereof-- and I wonder "Just what sort of game are you looking for?" While there's been a lot of genre mixing over the last decade or so, I believe that there are still discrete genres. I mean, if a person wants an FPS, play an FPS, for example.
The same goes for interfaces. An interface is a feature, therefore, it should be considered when weighing a decision to play or not play the game. Even if the interface is a superficial matter in the grand scheme of things, at some point, one needs to decide whether it's going to keep them away and then be done with it. I prefer a char-broiled hamburger over pan-fried. Do I stand at the counter at McDonald's and declare that I'm not going to budge until they grill me a Big Mac while insulting the other patrons for their preference? Of course not. I simply go where I know my preferences will be catered to, like Burger King or Dairy Queen.
On the flip side of that analogy, do people ever walk up to you while you are at McDonald's and tell you how magnificent the Big Mac is and tell you that you are stupid and lazy for not liking it?
while i do admit to being somewhat of an eve prick (tm) i didnt mean in the OP to insinuate that people who dont like the difficult controls (or other difficult or unintuitive systems) in either of these games are not intelligent. I was commenting on patience and the ability to stick with something even if the first 5 minutes of it are confusing.
or to put it another way the "i want it all now" crowd are kept out of these games. I can't speak for SqE but i would bet money that it's intentional on ccp's part.
I am also happy to have made epic threadz; only wish the first huge chunk would have happened while i was awake
ttys
itch
RIP Ribbitribbitt you are missed, kid.
Currently Playing EVE, ESO
Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and not clothed.
There's a grain of truth to it, and as far as grains go, it's a mighty hard one to swallow, but it basically goes like this:
World of Warcraft was most people's first MMORPG. We know this because, when looking at the subscription numbers, even if you combined the players from all the other MMORPGs before it, you can tell from head count alone that the overwhelming majority of players were not those previous players.
World of Warcraft was so overwhelming successful than MMORPGs made since have tried to cop it. This ultimately failed, they did no better in subscription numbers than any game that copped EverQuest (the game everybody was trying to cop before World of Warcraft). However, it built up an expectation in MMORPG players that all MMORPGs must play like World of Warcraft.
Final Fantasy XIV was not based on World of Warcraft/EverQuest, it was based on Final Fantasy XI and, to a lesser extent, the entire Final Fantasy series. It would not make sense for Square-Enix to develop the game to look like anything but a Final Fantasy game.
Further, they don't particularly care if they get World of Warcraft millions because everyone who has tried to get World of Warcraft numbers by copying them has failed anyway. They'll be quite content with a few hundred thousand players which, all indications suggest, is easily doable.
So, in the end, we're left with seeing this happen over and over again on this forum:
Random MMORPG player comes into the Final Fantasy XIV forums. Chances are the overwhelming majority of MMORPGs s/he played looks like World of Warcraft.
Same Random MMORPG player slams the game, wants everybody to know it's evil and s/he hates it, because it does things so differently than they expected after being exposed to nothing but a procession of clones.
Those of us who happen to know the whole story (as outlined in the bullets above) inform them that they are ignorant.
Same random MMORPG player has now encountered resistance. Sophomorism instantly kicks in. S/he decides to have an argument about how arrogant we are.
Of course, there's plenty of support f or random MMORPG player, since anyone who has other than a World of Warcraft upbringing is in the minority. They start linking whatever agreeing sentiment they can find from their fellow relative newbs off the net in order to verify their case.
Those who happen to know the whole story have seen it fall before. We're sick of it. You hate the game? There's the door.
And this has been the reality for the history of this forum.
i really couldnt have said this any better.
in fact i wish it was part of my O.P.
i didnt think of it at the time but it really is just as significant that both of these games are unlike WoW as it is significant that they are a lot like each other.
and no, i'm not a typical wow basher, i played and enjoyed it from the retail launch up til cataclysm infos got leaked that i didnt particularly like and started to play 14 beta. in fact my mmorpg.com's avatar is named after my wow toon's nickname.
RIP Ribbitribbitt you are missed, kid.
Currently Playing EVE, ESO
Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and not clothed.
Basically you like games that are so frustrating to the average person because it gives you something to look down your nose about?
"LAWL you're upset that the crappy control scheme/insanely confusing system is hard to understand? GO BACK TO WOW NOOB!"
no brain, no gain.
I'd just like to point out that there's a massive difference between intellectual challenge and tedium via bad game design.
And I'd like to point out that pulling the bad game design bogeyman out thin air and shoving it in the durection of FFXIV in order to defend your unwillingness to adapt does little to vindicate your claims of understanding intelligence.
And I'd like to point out that use of ad hominems is a poor way to get others take your arguments seriously. I never even mentioned FFXIV, nor my own gameplay habits.
Play the game and enjoy or just go elsewhere. No one really care about you negative vibe just like you probably care little for people who think this game is a breath of fresh air.
A game to be played... Without the whack a mole concept most games have now , tediuos grindy or not you have to play.
BYE BYE
________________________________________________________ Sorcery must persist, the future is the Citadel
i didnt think of it at the time but it really is just as significant that both of these games are unlike WoW as it is significant that they are a lot like each other.
and no, i'm not a typical wow basher, i played and enjoyed it from the retail launch up til cataclysm infos got leaked that i didnt particularly like and started to play 14 beta. in fact my mmorpg.com's avatar is named after my wow toon's nickname.
You could always add it and quote? I personally feel sad sometimes because I'm in an even smaller gamer minority because I've never even played WoW. It never appealed to me. So when people throw WoW terms at me in comparison I just have to look at them like...
... o.O wut?
You wanted my time, so I played you. You wanted my money, I forked it over. You wanted my soul, I gave it willingly. Not to complain... but when do I get my end of the deal? And no, I don't want your flippin' carrot. If you can't do that give me back my youth and keep the change. Why don't you try chasing your own damn carrot for a change? I'll gladly hold the stick.
I really don't know how anyone could compare a well explained and thoughtfully crafted game like EVE to FF XIV at all. Just looking at sheer functionality FF XIV is not even on the same planet. Just look at the Market of EVE with it's analytical tools or the intricate crafting-system where everything is complex and makes perfect sense.
Actually it's a good comparison to all those who think that explaining the mechanics to players is "handholding" and "for the retarded". In EVE every aspect of the game is explained in great detail ingame as well as via wikis, which you can even access via an ingame browser today. And EVE is a hundred times more complex than FF XIV.
You could always add it and quote? I personally feel sad sometimes because I'm in an even smaller gamer minority because I've never even played WoW. It never appealed to me. So when people throw WoW terms at me in comparison I just have to look at them like...
... o.O wut?
i didnt even think of that, it's interesting but i'd feel wierd because it's really not my own idea, someone else said it first and i just thought it was spot on.
but ya, you do probably look through a very different lens than most mmo gamers if you have never played the 500 pound gorilla (wow)
now i am hoping you go and try it just so i can read an account of someone who has never ever played wow's review of wow
RIP Ribbitribbitt you are missed, kid.
Currently Playing EVE, ESO
Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and not clothed.
I really don't know how anyone could compare a well explained and thoughtfully crafted game like EVE to FF XIV at all. Just looking at sheer functionality FF XIV is not even on the same planet. Just look at the Market of EVE with it's analytical tools or the intricate crafting-system where everything is complex and makes perfect sense.
Actually it's a good comparison to all those who think that explaining the mechanics to players is "handholding" and "for the retarded". In EVE every aspect of the game is explained in great detail ingame as well as via wikis, which you can even access via an ingame browser today. And EVE is a hundred times more complex than FF XIV.
EVE has also been out for 6-7 years. To be factual, a lot of gamers have talked about the threshold and difficulty curve to get into EVE Online, so when it comes to accessibility the OP doesn't make a strange comparison.
That you don't like FFXIV at all, doesn't mean everyone does; the fact that you don't agree with his viewpoints, doesn't make the arguments why he makes the comparison between the two games any less valid. After all, he was talking about why he liked FFXIV and felt it had similarities with EVE in gameplay.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I really don't know how anyone could compare a well explained and thoughtfully crafted game like EVE to FF XIV at all. Just looking at sheer functionality FF XIV is not even on the same planet. Just look at the Market of EVE with it's analytical tools or the intricate crafting-system where everything is complex and makes perfect sense.
Actually it's a good comparison to all those who think that explaining the mechanics to players is "handholding" and "for the retarded". In EVE every aspect of the game is explained in great detail ingame as well as via wikis, which you can even access via an ingame browser today. And EVE is a hundred times more complex than FF XIV.
EVE took me infinitely more time to understand the game well. Even after playing for a long time, I still felt like a noob compared to some of the people I was rolling around with.
There really is no comparison between these two games when it comes to complexity and depth. I pretty much understood everything about Final Fantasy 14 after a day or so. And if there was something I missed, I'm sure it was nothing major.
EVE has also been out for 6-7 years. To be factual, a lot of gamers have talked about the threshold and difficulty curve to get into EVE Online, so when it comes to accessibility the OP doesn't make a strange comparison.
That you don't like FFXIV at all, doesn't mean everyone does; the fact that you don't agree with his viewpoints, doesn't make the arguments why he makes the comparison between the two games any less valid. After all, he was talking about why he liked FFXIV and felt it had similarities with EVE in gameplay.
You know that's the thing. EVEs learning curve is steep but it's not like that because its not explained enough, it's because the mechanics are actually complex. In FF XIV the mechnics are no where near as complex, they are just badly explained.
I really don't know how anyone could compare a well explained and thoughtfully crafted game like EVE to FF XIV at all. Just looking at sheer functionality FF XIV is not even on the same planet. Just look at the Market of EVE with it's analytical tools or the intricate crafting-system where everything is complex and makes perfect sense.
Actually it's a good comparison to all those who think that explaining the mechanics to players is "handholding" and "for the retarded". In EVE every aspect of the game is explained in great detail ingame as well as via wikis, which you can even access via an ingame browser today. And EVE is a hundred times more complex than FF XIV.
dont forget ffxiv is still in the womb so to speak while eve has been adding stuff since what, 2004? I'm a 2006 player and i know the game then was a lot smaller than it is today, and some of the things that might go into your definition of "thoughtfully crafted" might not have been there at launch... even i remember the time when there was no "warp-to-zero" and everyone complained including me that it was unabashedly dumb to have to make bookmarks 15km off a location to be able to jump there on target. i mean the races of eve had mastered FTL travel but can't figure out how to land on top of something
there were a lot fewer systems back then and they were added bit by bit over the years just as i am sure ffxiv will add more and more stuff over the years.
dont get me wrong i dont think we'll be seeing line graphs of bone chip +1 prices anytime soon but even such things as more jobs would add complexity to ff14, since characters in 14 can apply skills from another class to their current one to customise their current role.
but don't compare whether something is "thoughtfully crafted" between a game that's 6 years old (which again i admit is an awesome gamea and one that i play religiously) and a game that releases in half a week.
RIP Ribbitribbitt you are missed, kid.
Currently Playing EVE, ESO
Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and not clothed.
You could always add it and quote? I personally feel sad sometimes because I'm in an even smaller gamer minority because I've never even played WoW. It never appealed to me. So when people throw WoW terms at me in comparison I just have to look at them like...
... o.O wut?
i didnt even think of that, it's interesting but i'd feel wierd because it's really not my own idea, someone else said it first and i just thought it was spot on.
but ya, you do probably look through a very different lens than most mmo gamers if you have never played the 500 pound gorilla (wow)
now i am hoping you go and try it just so i can read an account of someone who has never ever played wow's review of wow
Haha, Well if you quote it I'm sure he wouldn't mind. But yeah you are probably better off without it.
Hahaha I'd only do that if someone paid for it. = And I don't see that happening, even though I've been playing MMO's for about 8 years. I don't have enough years of experience for it to matter.
You wanted my time, so I played you. You wanted my money, I forked it over. You wanted my soul, I gave it willingly. Not to complain... but when do I get my end of the deal? And no, I don't want your flippin' carrot. If you can't do that give me back my youth and keep the change. Why don't you try chasing your own damn carrot for a change? I'll gladly hold the stick.
I really don't know how anyone could compare a well explained and thoughtfully crafted game like EVE to FF XIV at all. Just looking at sheer functionality FF XIV is not even on the same planet. Just look at the Market of EVE with it's analytical tools or the intricate crafting-system where everything is complex and makes perfect sense.
Actually it's a good comparison to all those who think that explaining the mechanics to players is "handholding" and "for the retarded". In EVE every aspect of the game is explained in great detail ingame as well as via wikis, which you can even access via an ingame browser today. And EVE is a hundred times more complex than FF XIV.
dont forget ffxiv is still in the womb so to speak while eve has been adding stuff since what, 2004? I'm a 2006 player and i know the game then was a lot smaller than it is today, and some of the things that might go into your definition of "thoughtfully crafted" might not have been there at launch... even i remember the time when there was no "warp-to-zero" and everyone complained including me that it was unabashedly dumb to have to make bookmarks 15km off a location to be able to jump there on target. i mean the races of eve had mastered FTL travel but can't figure out how to land on top of something
there were a lot fewer systems back then and they were added bit by bit over the years just as i am sure ffxiv will add more and more stuff over the years.
dont get me wrong i dont think we'll be seeing line graphs of bone chip +1 prices anytime soon but even such things as more jobs would add complexity to ff14, since characters in 14 can apply skills from another class to their current one to customise their current role.
but don't compare whether something is "thoughtfully crafted" between a game that's 6 years old (which again i admit is an awesome gamea and one that i play religiously) and a game that releases in half a week.
Are you saying that you think FFIV is going to rival EVE in complexity and depth?
Because it won't. Ever. Certainly FFXI wasn't in the same ballpark. I don't see any reason why this would be. Do you?
I really don't know how anyone could compare a well explained and thoughtfully crafted game like EVE to FF XIV at all. Just looking at sheer functionality FF XIV is not even on the same planet. Just look at the Market of EVE with it's analytical tools or the intricate crafting-system where everything is complex and makes perfect sense.
Actually it's a good comparison to all those who think that explaining the mechanics to players is "handholding" and "for the retarded". In EVE every aspect of the game is explained in great detail ingame as well as via wikis, which you can even access via an ingame browser today. And EVE is a hundred times more complex than FF XIV.
dont forget ffxiv is still in the womb so to speak while eve has been adding stuff since what, 2004? I'm a 2006 player and i know the game then was a lot smaller than it is today, and some of the things that might go into your definition of "thoughtfully crafted" might not have been there at launch... even i remember the time when there was no "warp-to-zero" and everyone complained including me that it was unabashedly dumb to have to make bookmarks 15km off a location to be able to jump there on target. i mean the races of eve had mastered FTL travel but can't figure out how to land on top of something
there were a lot fewer systems back then and they were added bit by bit over the years just as i am sure ffxiv will add more and more stuff over the years.
dont get me wrong i dont think we'll be seeing line graphs of bone chip +1 prices anytime soon but even such things as more jobs would add complexity to ff14, since characters in 14 can apply skills from another class to their current one to customise their current role.
but don't compare whether something is "thoughtfully crafted" between a game that's 6 years old (which again i admit is an awesome gamea and one that i play religiously) and a game that releases in half a week.
Are you saying that you think FFIV is going to rival EVE in complexity and depth?
Because it won't. Ever. Certainly FFXI wasn't in the same ballpark. I don't see any reason why this would be. Do you?
What complexity and depth does EvE have that isn't a matter of player interaction? Take away player corporations and PVP and what are you left with; Gathering Materials, Crafting, some Questing, and Grinding Mobs for loot and xp. All of the depth is player made. If at some point Player Kingdoms were introduced to FFXIV it would be just as deep as EvE.
Well, along those lines, I have some simple advice for those people: if they don't want to be called stupid or lazy, they should stop imitating a stupid, lazy person. "I just can't handle this interface," sounds a whole lot like that when a lot of us here can handle this interface, and have. We know the solution: try harder. If trying harder doesn't work, perhaps you just lack the mental faculty. This isn't an insult: it's physics.
And they'll retort with stuff like, "well, they should make it for casual smucks like me so they can make more money, that's just basic usability!"
And I'm like "sure, yeah, they could do that, if they don't mind kicking us core gamers out into the cold like everybody else does. Don't you smucks have enough games to play already?"
"But I want to play this game! It's pretty!"
"Yes, thanks, that's great. *sigh* God, I'm glad Square-Enix knows a starving niche when they see one."
Exactly! There are soo many other games out there made for people who WANT instant gratification or who DON'T like any grind, or WANT to be able to get the game right off the bat.
Some of us LIKE not knowing and going in feet first. New games are like visiting a new country and in a lot of ways it is, some of us LIKE getting acquainted with the culture and adapting to what is there. And others only want to go visit countries where they understand the language and know they can find a McDonalds.
The UI FFXIV has is part of the experience learn it's language instead of insisting everyone speak the way you want them to.
A Short and Sweet Message to you Complainers
TO ALL OF YOU THAT DON'T LIKE THIS GAME, THE UI, ETC. GO THE HELL BACK TO WHERE YOU ARE COMFORTABLE THEN IF YOU HATE IT SO MUCH! Go and play the games you like with the Ui's you are comfortable with and LEAVE OUR GAME ALONE!
We will take this game and watch it refine itself and you guys can go and play the games you like. Does it make this game better? No. Does it make your game better no. It just means get the heck out of our country and we'll stay the heck out of yours.
Shit. This stuff makes me sooooo pissed off. I hope Tanaka comes up with a virus to destroy peoples video cards that go and waste their time complaining about games they aren't going to play.
If you aren't gonna play it. GTFO and STAY OUT.
AND HAVE A NICE DAY
Take a chill pill, pal. But I have to agree with you. There's no perfect game out there that fit everyone's shoes. You don't like some features of this game, to the extent that you decide not to play it and go to its board to start a flame about it. That's understandable. But why keep doing it so consistently like your whole family was murdered because of that game?
I joined WoW with my WC3 lore exp so I expected some intense PVP events between the Horde and Alliance. But what was there for me was little to nothing. Wintergrasp was a joke. An end-game siege warfare that happens every 2 hours with no prepraration reqired. Shocked? I was. Anger? I was. Then I decided to do Arena and BGs but it didn't hold my attention for too long because it's instanced. A 2 factions PVP game with no open world PVP event is a BIG fail imo so I quit, in peace. Leave that game for the other 11 millions to enjoy themselves.
I like FFXIV. You like other games. Why not enjoy our game instead of going to other game's boards you dont like/hate and troll every threads there. Is it that hard to do it?
Are you saying that you think FFIV is going to rival EVE in complexity and depth?
Because it won't. Ever. Certainly FFXI wasn't in the same ballpark. I don't see any reason why this would be. Do you?
i'm saying that they are both more complex than the typical based-on-wow mmo. i'm comparing the 2 of them to traditional hotbar and mouse games not to one another.
RIP Ribbitribbitt you are missed, kid.
Currently Playing EVE, ESO
Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and not clothed.
I think the fanbois are gonna ruin this game for me. There's no subjectivity coming from you lot. You sound like those retarded f-tards in Horizons when that came out.
Lol do not take mmorpg.coms forums as a good judge of the community in FF14.
Check out an ff14 forum and you will see what we are like when we are not constantly being attacked. Just like FF11 our community will be tightly knit and cooperative. Of course since WoW, asshats abound, so there will be more in ff14 then in ff11, but theres no Barrans chat and reputation will be important in this game and take into consideration the barriers to entry of the game... and you are looking at a lot of lasting friendships.
But feel free not to play. You won't be missed by us either
I love snails. I love every kinda snail. I just want to hug them all, but I cant. Cant hug every snail.
Comments
There isn't any objectivity coming from the other direction either. Besides you should really judge a game based on your own feelings and not what others do or say. Because honestly that's silly.
I personally love MMORPG because if I need to I can always find something to get pissed off about. Though I always root for the side getting bashed. IE the game.
You wanted my time, so I played you. You wanted my money, I forked it over. You wanted my soul, I gave it willingly. Not to complain... but when do I get my end of the deal? And no, I don't want your flippin' carrot. If you can't do that give me back my youth and keep the change. Why don't you try chasing your own damn carrot for a change? I'll gladly hold the stick.
The reason that most professional reviews tend to be positively biased is because you generally want the person reviewing the game to be a representation of the target audience. That way they can list off, and explain all of the things which they find enjoyable about the game in addition to pointing out areas where they had criticism.
If you aren't reading a review to hear about what that person thought made product/game/etc. worth buying then I guess you just read it because you think the reviewer is a good representation of your taste. I don't know about you, but the average poster on mmorpg.com might not be that for me.
I'd rather read a positive review, see what is fun about a game and then if it doesn't sell me I know I probably won't be interested in that game.
if you read an entirely negative review all you see is one person's nerdrage. Like the person with the review on this forum with 0/10 for controls, 2/10 for game play and then like 4/10 for a total score for this game. I mean talk about not having any perspective on MMO's in general (that guy either has no imagination, hasn't played many MMO's, or both). Yet that is what you get on these forums.
http://xivpads.com/?1595680
http://guildwork.com/users/murugan
I think you missed my sarcasm.
I was always bad at it. Anyway as it were, I agree with you.
You wanted my time, so I played you. You wanted my money, I forked it over. You wanted my soul, I gave it willingly. Not to complain... but when do I get my end of the deal? And no, I don't want your flippin' carrot. If you can't do that give me back my youth and keep the change. Why don't you try chasing your own damn carrot for a change? I'll gladly hold the stick.
To the people that seem upset about the UI design choice criticisms and keep wanting to tell people to go away if they don't like the game you seem to be missing the point of these comments. The people WANT to like the game they WANT to play it but they find that this or some other particular issue is for them a problem and they would like to see it addressed.
My house has running water and is a very nice house but if some one thought a better design would be to go out the back door and get water out of the river I might consider it if there were good sound environmental reasons for it. But, I doubt I would agree to the need to build a bucket from scratch every time I did need to get some water.
I want companies and developers to have vision and to not be easily swayed by public opinion and to stick with their beliefs. But, they need to have an open mind and consider that sometimes a good idea was just a good idea and the actual idea in real life is a dud and needs to be rethought. For FF XIV right now it appears that much of the UI gets in the way of the game which is a shame.
If they WANT to like and WANT to play it then they will. There is no point complaining about it. If they really wanted to play so badly that's all they had to say. I'm mean really? Is it THAT hard?
So I kind of doubt that that is their motivation. I have NEVER complained about a game. I post on the forums while I think about joining, check things out gain information. Please not INFORMATION not opinions, and decide whether the game is for me. When a chance to test the game comes out then I will try it.
Also you seem to forget the mass exodus this game had with people saying they were leaving because of the Fatigue System and they hadn't even played yet. There will always be reasons to leave a game. Therefore they will leave. No if ands or buts. The people who can deal with the game as it is will play. The game will change slowly and surely as all games do with time. More people will come and more people will go. There is no reason to complain about these things.
If you don't like it now, come back in 6 months. Don't like it then come back in 2 years. If you think the game is going to flop in 6 months, don't waste your money. People are making this mega complicated.
You wanted my time, so I played you. You wanted my money, I forked it over. You wanted my soul, I gave it willingly. Not to complain... but when do I get my end of the deal? And no, I don't want your flippin' carrot. If you can't do that give me back my youth and keep the change. Why don't you try chasing your own damn carrot for a change? I'll gladly hold the stick.
I certainly understand your point but I think you have over simplified it. I certainly want to like my wife even though she makes it impossible at times and complaining about it certainly is pointless.
Some people will see criticism as simple complaints and to others they feel that they are more along the lines of constructive suggestions or comments. With something that is optional like paying for and playing a game I think feed back to the community and the developers has some value but it does need to be based on something and not simply a whine about not liking something.
First, to Geldonyetich, let me say that I really appreciate your ability to articulate what I find myself thinking a LOT with regard to how people approach gaming, yet seldom am able to form the words out of my own frustration.
What I think is fundamental here is the question: At what point does a game just not suit a gamer? All too often, I see people complaining about this or that feature-- or the lack thereof-- and I wonder "Just what sort of game are you looking for?" While there's been a lot of genre mixing over the last decade or so, I believe that there are still discrete genres. I mean, if a person wants an FPS, play an FPS, for example.
The same goes for interfaces. An interface is a feature, therefore, it should be considered when weighing a decision to play or not play the game. Even if the interface is a superficial matter in the grand scheme of things, at some point, one needs to decide whether it's going to keep them away and then be done with it. I prefer a char-broiled hamburger over pan-fried. Do I stand at the counter at McDonald's and declare that I'm not going to budge until they grill me a Big Mac while insulting the other patrons for their preference? Of course not. I simply go where I know my preferences will be catered to, like Burger King or Dairy Queen.
"You'll never win an argument with an idiot because he is too stupid to recognize his own defeat." ~Anonymous
I haven't seen many reviews of the game that weren't whining however. If a review doesn't enlighten me then it is in fact useless.
If your wife is complaining about the broken sink you have been informed that you either a) the sink is broken or b) didn't fix it like you were supposed to.
Plus your wife is different, she is complaining straight to you. If they were saying this stuff to the SE Development team it would be more similar. But it's more like your wife complaining about how your feet smell to some random person on the internet. That's not going to help your feet stench.
You wanted my time, so I played you. You wanted my money, I forked it over. You wanted my soul, I gave it willingly. Not to complain... but when do I get my end of the deal? And no, I don't want your flippin' carrot. If you can't do that give me back my youth and keep the change. Why don't you try chasing your own damn carrot for a change? I'll gladly hold the stick.
On the flip side of that analogy, do people ever walk up to you while you are at McDonald's and tell you how magnificent the Big Mac is and tell you that you are stupid and lazy for not liking it?
while i do admit to being somewhat of an eve prick (tm) i didnt mean in the OP to insinuate that people who dont like the difficult controls (or other difficult or unintuitive systems) in either of these games are not intelligent. I was commenting on patience and the ability to stick with something even if the first 5 minutes of it are confusing.
or to put it another way the "i want it all now" crowd are kept out of these games. I can't speak for SqE but i would bet money that it's intentional on ccp's part.
I am also happy to have made epic threadz; only wish the first huge chunk would have happened while i was awake
ttys
itch
RIP Ribbitribbitt you are missed, kid.
Currently Playing EVE, ESO
Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and not clothed.
Dwight D Eisenhower
My optimism wears heavy boots and is loud.
Henry Rollins
i really couldnt have said this any better.
in fact i wish it was part of my O.P.
i didnt think of it at the time but it really is just as significant that both of these games are unlike WoW as it is significant that they are a lot like each other.
and no, i'm not a typical wow basher, i played and enjoyed it from the retail launch up til cataclysm infos got leaked that i didnt particularly like and started to play 14 beta. in fact my mmorpg.com's avatar is named after my wow toon's nickname.
RIP Ribbitribbitt you are missed, kid.
Currently Playing EVE, ESO
Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and not clothed.
Dwight D Eisenhower
My optimism wears heavy boots and is loud.
Henry Rollins
Play the game and enjoy or just go elsewhere. No one really care about you negative vibe just like you probably care little for people who think this game is a breath of fresh air.
A game to be played... Without the whack a mole concept most games have now , tediuos grindy or not you have to play.
BYE BYE
________________________________________________________
Sorcery must persist, the future is the Citadel
You could always add it and quote? I personally feel sad sometimes because I'm in an even smaller gamer minority because I've never even played WoW. It never appealed to me. So when people throw WoW terms at me in comparison I just have to look at them like...
... o.O wut?
You wanted my time, so I played you. You wanted my money, I forked it over. You wanted my soul, I gave it willingly. Not to complain... but when do I get my end of the deal? And no, I don't want your flippin' carrot. If you can't do that give me back my youth and keep the change. Why don't you try chasing your own damn carrot for a change? I'll gladly hold the stick.
I really don't know how anyone could compare a well explained and thoughtfully crafted game like EVE to FF XIV at all. Just looking at sheer functionality FF XIV is not even on the same planet. Just look at the Market of EVE with it's analytical tools or the intricate crafting-system where everything is complex and makes perfect sense.
Actually it's a good comparison to all those who think that explaining the mechanics to players is "handholding" and "for the retarded". In EVE every aspect of the game is explained in great detail ingame as well as via wikis, which you can even access via an ingame browser today. And EVE is a hundred times more complex than FF XIV.
i didnt even think of that, it's interesting but i'd feel wierd because it's really not my own idea, someone else said it first and i just thought it was spot on.
but ya, you do probably look through a very different lens than most mmo gamers if you have never played the 500 pound gorilla (wow)
now i am hoping you go and try it just so i can read an account of someone who has never ever played wow's review of wow
RIP Ribbitribbitt you are missed, kid.
Currently Playing EVE, ESO
Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and not clothed.
Dwight D Eisenhower
My optimism wears heavy boots and is loud.
Henry Rollins
EVE has also been out for 6-7 years. To be factual, a lot of gamers have talked about the threshold and difficulty curve to get into EVE Online, so when it comes to accessibility the OP doesn't make a strange comparison.
That you don't like FFXIV at all, doesn't mean everyone does; the fact that you don't agree with his viewpoints, doesn't make the arguments why he makes the comparison between the two games any less valid. After all, he was talking about why he liked FFXIV and felt it had similarities with EVE in gameplay.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
EVE took me infinitely more time to understand the game well. Even after playing for a long time, I still felt like a noob compared to some of the people I was rolling around with.
There really is no comparison between these two games when it comes to complexity and depth. I pretty much understood everything about Final Fantasy 14 after a day or so. And if there was something I missed, I'm sure it was nothing major.
Complexity and Depth Meter
1----------2----------3----------4----------5----------6----------7-----------8-----------9----------10
Most MMOs------FFIV------------------------------------------------------------------------EVE
You know that's the thing. EVEs learning curve is steep but it's not like that because its not explained enough, it's because the mechanics are actually complex. In FF XIV the mechnics are no where near as complex, they are just badly explained.
But you are right, i didn't want to derail this.
dont forget ffxiv is still in the womb so to speak while eve has been adding stuff since what, 2004? I'm a 2006 player and i know the game then was a lot smaller than it is today, and some of the things that might go into your definition of "thoughtfully crafted" might not have been there at launch... even i remember the time when there was no "warp-to-zero" and everyone complained including me that it was unabashedly dumb to have to make bookmarks 15km off a location to be able to jump there on target. i mean the races of eve had mastered FTL travel but can't figure out how to land on top of something
there were a lot fewer systems back then and they were added bit by bit over the years just as i am sure ffxiv will add more and more stuff over the years.
dont get me wrong i dont think we'll be seeing line graphs of bone chip +1 prices anytime soon but even such things as more jobs would add complexity to ff14, since characters in 14 can apply skills from another class to their current one to customise their current role.
but don't compare whether something is "thoughtfully crafted" between a game that's 6 years old (which again i admit is an awesome gamea and one that i play religiously) and a game that releases in half a week.
RIP Ribbitribbitt you are missed, kid.
Currently Playing EVE, ESO
Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and not clothed.
Dwight D Eisenhower
My optimism wears heavy boots and is loud.
Henry Rollins
Haha, Well if you quote it I'm sure he wouldn't mind. But yeah you are probably better off without it.
Hahaha I'd only do that if someone paid for it. = And I don't see that happening, even though I've been playing MMO's for about 8 years. I don't have enough years of experience for it to matter.
You wanted my time, so I played you. You wanted my money, I forked it over. You wanted my soul, I gave it willingly. Not to complain... but when do I get my end of the deal? And no, I don't want your flippin' carrot. If you can't do that give me back my youth and keep the change. Why don't you try chasing your own damn carrot for a change? I'll gladly hold the stick.
Are you saying that you think FFIV is going to rival EVE in complexity and depth?
Because it won't. Ever. Certainly FFXI wasn't in the same ballpark. I don't see any reason why this would be. Do you?
What complexity and depth does EvE have that isn't a matter of player interaction? Take away player corporations and PVP and what are you left with; Gathering Materials, Crafting, some Questing, and Grinding Mobs for loot and xp. All of the depth is player made. If at some point Player Kingdoms were introduced to FFXIV it would be just as deep as EvE.
Take a chill pill, pal. But I have to agree with you. There's no perfect game out there that fit everyone's shoes. You don't like some features of this game, to the extent that you decide not to play it and go to its board to start a flame about it. That's understandable. But why keep doing it so consistently like your whole family was murdered because of that game?
I joined WoW with my WC3 lore exp so I expected some intense PVP events between the Horde and Alliance. But what was there for me was little to nothing. Wintergrasp was a joke. An end-game siege warfare that happens every 2 hours with no prepraration reqired. Shocked? I was. Anger? I was. Then I decided to do Arena and BGs but it didn't hold my attention for too long because it's instanced. A 2 factions PVP game with no open world PVP event is a BIG fail imo so I quit, in peace. Leave that game for the other 11 millions to enjoy themselves.
I like FFXIV. You like other games. Why not enjoy our game instead of going to other game's boards you dont like/hate and troll every threads there. Is it that hard to do it?
i'm saying that they are both more complex than the typical based-on-wow mmo. i'm comparing the 2 of them to traditional hotbar and mouse games not to one another.
RIP Ribbitribbitt you are missed, kid.
Currently Playing EVE, ESO
Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and not clothed.
Dwight D Eisenhower
My optimism wears heavy boots and is loud.
Henry Rollins
Lol do not take mmorpg.coms forums as a good judge of the community in FF14.
Check out an ff14 forum and you will see what we are like when we are not constantly being attacked. Just like FF11 our community will be tightly knit and cooperative. Of course since WoW, asshats abound, so there will be more in ff14 then in ff11, but theres no Barrans chat and reputation will be important in this game and take into consideration the barriers to entry of the game... and you are looking at a lot of lasting friendships.
But feel free not to play. You won't be missed by us either
I love snails.
I love every kinda snail.
I just want to hug them all, but I cant.
Cant hug every snail.