No one thinks FFXIV requires a higher IQ or more thought because of the UI. Well, at least I hope they dont! I think what most people are trying to get to is that some people are used to a specific interface. Because lets face it, AoC, SWTOR, STO and the rest of MMO's trying to make there bid on the Game Community, all utilize the same UI. People have come accustomed to the idea of UI's staying the same. The moment they see or sense anything particularly similar to a previous game it automatically becomes a WoW remake. I understand it is a hard mantra to remove, but again everyone has been accustomed to that same idea.
Now when something else comes out that is different. It pretty easy to dislike. One reason mainly because it has completely gone against the grain that we know to be an MMO. For instance, my younger brother dislikes FFXIV. Its not because he is stupid, its because he has played WoW for several years now and finds it familiar. When he installed FFXIV I was pretty happy and thought I would be able to share it with my little bro. I simply asked him why he doesnt like FFXIV, he said its just not what Im used to. It looks really good and he doesnt doubt that it is. The moment the controls became so unfamiliar he was done. That doesnt make him lazy. That doesnt make him stupid. That doesnt make FFXIV a crappy game. Just something he is not willing to try. He specifically told me maybe later but right now he is happy with WoW.
In ff14, crafting is absolutely essential to the economy and most gear will come from crafting.
in eve, crafting is absolutely essential and most gear comes from crafting.
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in ff14, there is a story to guide your character, and repeatable pve missions to accomplish if you so wish, but you are essentially free to explore the world as you wish.
in eve, there is a story to guide your character, and repeatable pve missions to accomplish if you so wish, but you are essentially free to explore the world as you wish.
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in ff4 your character can take on multiple roles and since you use one character, your reputation is important which helps cut down on asshats.
in eve, your character can take on multiple roles and since you use one character, your reputation is important which would cut down on asshats, if it weren't for the fact that in certain situations in eve asshattery is a huge plus.
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in ffxi the controls and such are a barrier for entry, this causes some people to go OMG CANNOT UNDERSTAND and the rest of the community goes, ok bye.
in eve the controls are only the beginning of the barrier for entry and this causes some people to go OMG CANNOT UNDERSTAND and the rest of the community goes ok, bye.
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just noticed it now, but it really does have quite a few similarities with eve. ofc it has a lot of differences as well (it has levels and eve does not, there's a biggy) but overall------ i am surprised.
no wonder i like both /grin
see you in new eden, in eorzea and (probably!) defending this on the boards here.
Itch
edit for great spellingz
I wish i liked spaceships and PvP because EVE is a great game from what i have read. Well Actually I could play a spaceship mmo, but I just cant get into mmo PvP, I am glad eve is there tho it serves a vitial role in the mmorpg genre. Just like I am glad ffxi and now ffxiv are inthe mmo genre. Its something completly different than WoW clone # 453.
Waiting for:EQ-Next, ArcheAge (not so much anymore) Now Playing: N/A Worst MMO: FFXIV Favorite MMO: FFXI
Odd, while I basically can agree with the OPs general comments and while I like and enjoyed EVE very much so far I have no so such feelings with FF XIV. I can recall when I first started with Eve and I really didn't have much frustration with its user interface since much of it made sense in context and while there were and are still areas that could use major improvement a lot of this is simply because there is so much going on that it is hard to display it and management it without giving over the entire screen for that. In FF XIV there seems to be no real justification in their choices other than this is what they wanted to do. There appears to be no ergonomic or game related reasons for their UI choices but as stated it isn't impossible to learn. Using a gamepad really hasn't been that hard and in fact I would argue that it is actually easier for the less mentally able to use a single controller with around a dozen buttons versus using two devices with with over 60 keys and a mouse with another 6 or more buttons depending on design.
The UI design is what it is because the designers choose to focus on building it around a controller not because it is harder or requires more effort. But, it is a bit like eating a steak with chopsticks after seeing a knife and fork it doesn't mean that chopsticks are bad and it certainly doesn't mean they are harder to use after a bit of practice but unless the steak has been already cut for you it by the cook they may be more hassle than they should be.
I will keep playing FF XIV for a bit more but so far I'm not really impressed with it and I don't see playing it for years like I have with Eve.
Basically you like games that are so frustrating to the average person because it gives you something to look down your nose about?
"LAWL you're upset that the crappy control scheme/insanely confusing system is hard to understand? GO BACK TO WOW NOOB!"
no brain, no gain.
I'd just like to point out that there's a massive difference between intellectual challenge and tedium via bad game design. If you're willing to put up with the later, that may make you more patient than the next person (or you're just hooked on the rush of endorphins you get when you think you can prove yourself superior to others somehow), but it is not a sign of greater intellect by any stretch of the imagination.
The Manual. A small to medium sized booklet that explains how things work. Read it. Learn it. Apply it.
That's not what I was talking about. It's quite possible to put unnecessary grind or other tedious tasks in a game, or ways to make it less accessible even to those who've read the manual and understand the system.
Unnecessary grind. i rofld.. tedious? i rofld again! Every mmo has its own grind, some more than others. And all mmorpgs are tedious at one point or another. and if its just soooooooo tedious. Then you obviously shouldn't play it. Don't really care what you call bad game design. some people hate chocolate.
i said no brain, no gain basicly because i agreed with the OP. Both games have a learning curve that if you don't get and don't bother learning. You don't really have any business being in the game anyway.
So there's no distinction between some grind and excessive grind in your eyes? And yeah, actually I was arguing that you shouldn't play such a game, because it's poor design (a term I gave my definition for everyone in the thread to see - not some whim). That chocolate analogy is weak in the context of the definition I set forth (which you're welcome to challenge with your own, but I have a feeling you aren't planning on having a coherent argument with me).
And again, I don't get where the "brain" comes in, because you're talking about effort, not intellectual ability. You could be a genius, but if you don't see proper incentive to do something, you may judge it not worth doing.
Of course, if a developer has the goal of making their game what most people would consider grindy, and they are fine with that - I have no reason to tell any player not to play, if that's what they enjoy.
you are reading too deep into something that isnt there. im not saying people are to stupid to play. im saying not learning how to play is your own fault. just because you think the system is to complicated doesn't mean it is. Im not saying the methods the game uses are better or worse than any other. But it is the system it has chosen none the less. so if you arent going to put forth the "effort to learn" how to play. the person obviously isnt using their brain. im not talking about solving E=mc2 here.
you are reading too deep into something that isnt there. im not saying people are to stupid to play. im saying not learning how to play is your own fault. just because you think the system is to complicated doesn't mean it is. Im not saying the methods the game uses are better or worse than any other. But it is the system it has chosen none the less. so if you arent going to put forth the "effort to learn" how to play. the person obviously isnt using their brain. im not talking about solving E=mc2 here.
Heh, I like that you accuse people of not wanting to learn to play a game as not using their brains. I could easily, and in fact am doing so, make the argument that people who play bad games are idiots. This is multi-fold because first its a bad game, and there are plenty of good games out there. Second, and this especially, when it encourages them to develope a superiority complex because they learned something unnecessarily complicated and chose to rub it in people's faces who actively chose not too.
I can sympathize with the unbelievable arrogance and asshattery of the people who support FFXIV because obviously people railed on the game for the amount of suck it currently has. I'd be pissed too if a game I loved was raked over the coals. The problem is, nobody can tell whether you actually love the game, are dramatically over compensating, sticking up for a lost cause, or just plain trolling.
Now as to the OP, EVE is a complex game, it has a really steep learning curve, and this is with pretty good tutorials, huge amounts of in game guides, built in and actually useful help channels, etc. FXIV is not. It is a game with zero help in the form of tutorials, currently, and needlessly complex and archaic interfaces. When tutorials are implemented in FFXIV then the games learning curve is going to be reduced to little more than WoW is because the game is simplistic in the extreme, there is just less information given in game which will reduce people to looking outside the game more, ie helpsites, which I will argue is BAD GAME DESIGN.
So I'm sorry, people don't play FFXIV because its hard and requires brain use, they are using their brains and making a choice of not playing a game that they don't like because its flawed, live with it.
So I'm sorry, people don't play FFXIV because its hard and requires brain use, they are using their brains and making a choice of not playing a game that they don't like because its flawed, live with it.
So I'm sorry, people don't play FFXIV because its hard and requires brain use, they are using their brains and making a choice of not playing a game that they don't like because its flawed, live with it.
I agree with this point.
If only they'd use their brains and make the choice to stop coming to the forums of the games they claim they don't like. To do otherwise seems... insincere.
But, nah, you folk who are clearly-more-on-the-fence-than-you're-letting-on can have this forum for the next four or five days. We FFXIV enthusiasts are mostly just trying not to burn out from the game before release, so we're not going to be here contesting your complaints much. (Unless, like me, they've a powerful pre-existing forum occupation habit.)
you are reading too deep into something that isnt there. im not saying people are to stupid to play. im saying not learning how to play is your own fault. just because you think the system is to complicated doesn't mean it is. Im not saying the methods the game uses are better or worse than any other. But it is the system it has chosen none the less. so if you arent going to put forth the "effort to learn" how to play. the person obviously isnt using their brain. im not talking about solving E=mc2 here.
Heh, I like that you accuse people of not wanting to learn to play a game as not using their brains. I could easily, and in fact am doing so, make the argument that people who play bad games are idiots. This is multi-fold because first its a bad game, and there are plenty of good games out there. Second, and this especially, when it encourages them to develope a superiority complex because they learned something unnecessarily complicated and chose to rub it in people's faces who actively chose not too.
I can sympathize with the unbelievable arrogance and asshattery of the people who support FFXIV because obviously people railed on the game for the amount of suck it currently has. I'd be pissed too if a game I loved was raked over the coals. The problem is, nobody can tell whether you actually love the game, are dramatically over compensating, sticking up for a lost cause, or just plain trolling.
Now as to the OP, EVE is a complex game, it has a really steep learning curve, and this is with pretty good tutorials, huge amounts of in game guides, built in and actually useful help channels, etc. FXIV is not. It is a game with zero help in the form of tutorials, currently, and needlessly complex and archaic interfaces. When tutorials are implemented in FFXIV then the games learning curve is going to be reduced to little more than WoW is because the game is simplistic in the extreme, there is just less information given in game which will reduce people to looking outside the game more, ie helpsites, which I will argue is BAD GAME DESIGN.
So I'm sorry, people don't play FFXIV because its hard and requires brain use, they are using their brains and making a choice of not laying a game that they don't like because its flawed, live with it.
wow how clueless can people be? Not every gamer is the same. Telling me I shouldnt like this game is just the same as me telling you, that you shouldnt like beef, I mean seriously beef has been around forever, its so archaic, you should eat Tofu instead, its revolutionary, its new, its healthy.
Grow up kid if you dont like something move on, theres no need worry about what other people are enjoying, or why they are enjoying it. Just go back to what you enjoy. (Which I assunme is nothing because your here trolling, thats normally what the trolls consist of here, people who have no game to play so they come to other game forums to piss on others parade)
Waiting for:EQ-Next, ArcheAge (not so much anymore) Now Playing: N/A Worst MMO: FFXIV Favorite MMO: FFXI
So I'm sorry, people don't play FFXIV because its hard and requires brain use, they are using their brains and making a choice of not playing a game that they don't like because its flawed, live with it.
I agree with this point.
At only they'd use their brains and make the choice to get off the forum of the game they decided they don't like. To do otherwise seems... insincere.
But, nah, you folk who are clearly-more-on-the-fence-than-you're-letting-on can have this forum for the next four or five days. We FFXIV enthusiasts are mostly just trying not to burn out from the game in the meanwhile, so we're not going to be here contesting your complaints much. (Unless, like me, they've a powerful pre-existing forum occupation habit.)
I understand where you're coming from. I just think that dismissing people that chose not to play this game by saying they are lazy or stupid is ridiculous. When people chose to stop playing this game, it is more likely they weighed their options and chose not to play it.
I understand where you're coming from. I just think that dismissing people that chose not to play this game by saying they are lazy or stupid is ridiculous. When people chose to stop playing this game, it is more likely they weighed their options and chose not to play it.
You know thats a great reason to stop playing, but it for some of these people on this site, it doesnt stop at that. They feel its their crusade to come and bash the game on the forums. and I ask why? If you dont like it put your effort into something more constructive.
Waiting for:EQ-Next, ArcheAge (not so much anymore) Now Playing: N/A Worst MMO: FFXIV Favorite MMO: FFXI
I understand where you're coming from. I just think that dismissing people that chose not to play this game by saying they are lazy or stupid is ridiculous. When people chose to stop playing this game, it is more likely they weighed their options and chose not to play it.
There's a grain of truth to it, and as far as grains go, it's a mighty hard one to swallow, but it basically goes like this:
World of Warcraft was most people's first MMORPG. We know this because, when looking at the subscription numbers, even if you combined the players from all the other MMORPGs before it, you can tell from head count alone that the overwhelming majority of players were not those previous players.
World of Warcraft was so overwhelming successful than MMORPGs made since have tried to cop it. This ultimately failed, they did no better in subscription numbers than any game that copped EverQuest (the game everybody was trying to cop before World of Warcraft). However, it built up an expectation in MMORPG players that all MMORPGs must play like World of Warcraft.
Final Fantasy XIV was not based on World of Warcraft/EverQuest, it was based on Final Fantasy XI and, to a lesser extent, the entire Final Fantasy series. It would not make sense for Square-Enix to develop the game to look like anything but a Final Fantasy game.
Further, they don't particularly care if they get World of Warcraft millions because everyone who has tried to get World of Warcraft numbers by copying them has failed anyway. They'll be quite content with a few hundred thousand players which, all indications suggest, is easily doable.
So, in the end, we're left with seeing this happen over and over again on this forum:
Random MMORPG player comes into the Final Fantasy XIV forums. Chances are the overwhelming majority of MMORPGs s/he played looks like World of Warcraft.
Same Random MMORPG player slams the game, wants everybody to know it's evil and s/he hates it, because it does things so differently than they expected after being exposed to nothing but a procession of clones.
Those of us who happen to know the whole story (as outlined in the bullets above) inform them that they are ignorant.
Same random MMORPG player has now encountered resistance. Sophomorism instantly kicks in. S/he decides to have an argument about how arrogant we are.
Of course, there's plenty of support f or random MMORPG player, since anyone who has other than a World of Warcraft upbringing is in the minority. They start linking whatever agreeing sentiment they can find from their fellow relative newbs off the net in order to verify their case.
Those who happen to know the whole story have seen it fall before. We're sick of it. You hate the game? There's the door.
And this has been the reality for the history of this forum.
I understand where you're coming from. I just think that dismissing people that chose not to play this game by saying they are lazy or stupid is ridiculous. When people chose to stop playing this game, it is more likely they weighed their options and chose not to play it.
There's a grain of truth to it, and as far as grains go, it's a mighty hard one to swallow, but it basically goes like this:
World of Warcraft was most people's first MMORPG. We know this because, when looking at the subscription numbers, even if you combined the players from all the other MMORPGs before it, you can tell from head count alone that the overwhelming majority of players were not those previous players.
World of Warcraft was so overwhelming successful than MMORPGs made since have tried to cop it. This ultimately failed, they did no better in subscription numbers than any game that copped EverQuest (the game everybody was trying to cop before World of Warcraft). However, it built up an expectation in MMORPG players that all MMORPGs must play like World of Warcraft.
Final Fantasy XIV was not based on World of Warcraft/EverQuest, it was based on Final Fantasy XI and, to a lesser extent, the entire Final Fantasy series. It would not make sense for Square-Enix to develop the game to look like anything but a Final Fantasy game.
Further, they don't particularly care if they get World of Warcraft millions because everyone who has tried to get World of Warcraft numbers by copying them has failed anyway.
So, in the end, we're left with seeing this happen over and over again on this forum:
Random MMORPG player comes into the Final Fantasy XIV forums. Chances are the overwhelming majority of MMORPGs he played looks like World of Warcraft.
Same Random MMORPG player slams the game, wants everybody to know it's evil and he hates it, because it does tihngs so differently.
Those of us who happen to know the whole story (as outlined in the bullets above) inform them that they are ignorant.
Random MMORPG player's sophomorism instantly kicks in, he decides to have an argument about how arrogant we are to think this.
Supporting MMORPG players start linking whatever agreeing sentiment they can find from newbs on the net just as clueless as they are in order to mullify their case.
Those who happen to know the whole story have seen it fall before. We're sick of it. You hate the game? There's the door.
And this has been the reality for the history of this forum.
I think the other end of the spectrum does the same thing.
People go on crusades to defend games in the face of reasonable arguments. They resort to ad hominem attacks (like stupid or lazy). They look at the game and see the second coming of Christ. If anyone comes to "their" forum area to complain about some aspect of the game they love, they proceed to dismiss and insult and defend.
I think this was one of those cases. Trolls are equal opportunity in the case of MMO releases.
I think the other end of the spectrum does the same thing.
People go on crusades to defend games in the face of reasonable arguments. They resort to ad hominem attacks (like stupid or lazy). They look at the game and see the second coming of Christ. If anyone comes to "their" forum area to complain about some aspect of the game they love, they proceed to dismiss and insult and defend.
I think this was one of those cases. Trolls are equal opportunity in the case of MMO releases.
Let me put it all on the line: I've been playing games for 26 years. I'm as jaded as they get. I played Final Fantasy XIV for over 100 hours in the open beta before coming to my decision. I preordered it because there's adequate value there for it to be an excellent MMORPG, different interface, flaws and all. I'm putting some faith in Square-Enix that they can do the rest, sure, but why not? These guys are professionals.
Linking up a review of some guy who started ranting about MMORPGs in 2005? Does not impress me. That some people may not like the game? Completely expected, I'm telling them this for their own good: they can complain all they like, it won't change a thing, certainly not my mind, and the developers aren't coming here anyway. They might as well move on. If anyone, on site or off, wants to try to tell me that I shouldn't be enjoying the game, sorry, they're underqualified.
I'm not kicking you out. If you want to like this game, you're welcome to. However, there's a catch: you're going to have to try harder. "The interface is haaaard, I'm not used to it, and should not have to adapt" is about as much a lazy, ignorant casual player's complaint as I ever heard. "The game crashes sometimes and is buggy!" Hell, boyo, that's how we can tell it's innovatin'! It's not so complicated: if you can't play a core gamer's game, stop trying: it's not for you.
Whatever happen to the good old days where someone would just play a game to just simply.... play it. The only real questions as a gamer we should ask of our games are; Is it fun? Am i engaged? Do i like how this games plays? and other similar questions. If you can say yes to this questions what else matters. People find their own challenge in games and what maybe be challenging to one isn't to another and some don't want a a challenge but all players want the games they play to be fun and engaging, so stop bickering there is no real point, people will hate this game and others will love it, just enjoy it for what it is if you do and if you don't go enjoy something else. Also who gives a rats ass if the game is "flawed" since its in the eye of the beholder, if you find fun in the game of your choosing then have at it.
Please no more calling those who don't like the UI, or gameplay system of lesser intelligence as it has nothing to do with it, they simply might not like the feel of the game and that is fine by me; also just because someone enjoys it and takes the time to learn it doesn't make them smarter or an elitist, its just what they like deal with it. God these arguments make me want to punch a baby.
We go trough life with many yet there is a time we must walk our path alone.
I think the other end of the spectrum does the same thing.
People go on crusades to defend games in the face of reasonable arguments. They resort to ad hominem attacks (like stupid or lazy). They look at the game and see the second coming of Christ. If anyone comes to "their" forum area to complain about some aspect of the game they love, they proceed to dismiss and insult and defend.
I think this was one of those cases. Trolls are equal opportunity in the case of MMO releases.
Let me put it all on the line: I've been playing games for 26 years. I'm as jaded as they get. I played Final Fantasy XIV for over 100 hours in the open beta before coming to my decision. I preordered it because there's adequate value there for it to be an excellent MMORPG, different interface, flaws and all. I'm putting some faith in Square-Enix that they can do the rest, sure, but why not? These guys are professionals. If anyone wants to try to tell me that I shouldn't be enjoying the game, sorry, they're just not qualified to tell me that.
Linking up a review of some guy who started ranting about MMORPGs in 2005? Does not impress me. That some people may not like the game? Completely expected, they need to move on.
If my PC could run it well enough for me to be happy playing it, I'd be right there playing the game with you.
I still think calling people stupid and lazy for their decision not to play the game is ridiculous.
I still think calling people stupid and lazy for their decision not to play the game is ridiculous.
Well, along those lines, I have some simple advice for those people: if they don't want to be called stupid or lazy, they should stop imitating a stupid, lazy person. "I just can't handle this interface," sounds a whole lot like that when a lot of us here can handle this interface, and have. We know the solution: try harder. If trying harder doesn't work, perhaps you just lack the mental faculty. This isn't an insult: it's physics.
And they'll retort with stuff like, "well, they should make it for casual smucks like me so they can make more money, that's just basic usability!"
And I'm like "sure, yeah, they could do that, if they don't mind kicking us core gamers out into the cold like everybody else does. Don't you smucks have enough games to play already?"
"But I want to play this game! It's pretty!"
"Yes, thanks, that's great. *sigh* God, I'm glad Square-Enix knows a starving niche when they see one."
I still think calling people stupid and lazy for their decision not to play the game is ridiculous.
Well, along those lines, I have some simple advice for those people: if they don't want to be called stupid or lazy, they should stop imitating a stupid, lazy person. "I just can't handle this interface!" sounds a whole lot like that when a lot of us here can and have.
And they'll retort with stuff like, "well, they should make it for casual smucks like me so they can make more money" and I'm like "sure, yeah, they could do that, if they don't mind kicking us core gamers out into the cold like everybody else does. Don't you smucks have enough games to play already?"
Pah!
I see less of the highlighted red and more of this:
"This interface is obnoxious!"
And I can see their point. I just don't have a problem with getting used to it.
Well, along those lines, I have some simple advice for those people: if they don't want to be called stupid or lazy, they should stop imitating a stupid, lazy person. "I just can't handle this interface!" sounds a whole lot like that when a lot of us here can and have.
I see less of the highlighted red and more of this:
"This interface is obnoxious!"
And I can see their point. I just don't have a problem with getting used to it.
I can see their point too, and I don't have a problem with getting used to it, and this is where calling them lazy and stupid comes in: they, like me, like you, can get used to it if they apply themselves. If they don't want to apply themselves, what word would you use to describe that behavior? No, you can't answer "typical" unless you describe what "typical" behavior means in this context.
Well, along those lines, I have some simple advice for those people: if they don't want to be called stupid or lazy, they should stop imitating a stupid, lazy person. "I just can't handle this interface!" sounds a whole lot like that when a lot of us here can and have.
I see less of the highlighted red and more of this:
"This interface is obnoxious!"
And I can see their point. I just don't have a problem with getting used to it.
I can see their point too, and I don't have a problem with getting used to it, and this is where calling them lazy and stupid comes in: they, like me, can get used to it if they apply themselves. If they don't want to apply themselves, what word would you use to describe that behavior?
I think that the people choosing not to play have more complaints than that.
Even if that was their singular reason for not playing, it's just as valid as any other reason not to play a game. It doesn't make them stupid or lazy. It makes them picky.
I think that the people choosing not to play have more complaints than that.
Yes, but in my experience on these forums, the overwhleming majority of it is, "it doesn't play like the games I'm used to."
Originally posted by colddog04
Even if that was their singular reason for not playing, it's just as valid as any other reason not to play a game. It doesn't make them stupid or lazy. It makes them picky.
Yeah, that's a bit like saying, "he wouldn't choose to play the game because he's choosy."
Listen, I know it's not nice to tell somebody that they're being ignorant or lazy. And personally I don't get off on doing so. (Though I do admit a certain smug satisfaction to having a game with a minimum barrier of entry.)
However, when someone backs me into the corner and demands, "why can't I enjoy this game, why do you claim to enjoy this game I cannot enjoy? I'm putting a review on your forums to prove that you should hate this game!" Then they don't leave me much choice, now do they?
Well, along those lines, I have some simple advice for those people: if they don't want to be called stupid or lazy, they should stop imitating a stupid, lazy person. "I just can't handle this interface," sounds a whole lot like that when a lot of us here can handle this interface, and have. We know the solution: try harder. If trying harder doesn't work, perhaps you just lack the mental faculty. This isn't an insult: it's physics.
And they'll retort with stuff like, "well, they should make it for casual smucks like me so they can make more money, that's just basic usability!"
And I'm like "sure, yeah, they could do that, if they don't mind kicking us core gamers out into the cold like everybody else does. Don't you smucks have enough games to play already?"
"But I want to play this game! It's pretty!"
"Yes, thanks, that's great. *sigh* God, I'm glad Square-Enix knows a starving niche when they see one."
Exactly! There are soo many other games out there made for people who WANT instant gratification or who DON'T like any grind, or WANT to be able to get the game right off the bat.
Some of us LIKE not knowing and going in feet first. New games are like visiting a new country and in a lot of ways it is, some of us LIKE getting acquainted with the culture and adapting to what is there. And others only want to go visit countries where they understand the language and know they can find a McDonalds.
The UI FFXIV has is part of the experience learn it's language instead of insisting everyone speak the way you want them to.
A Short and Sweet Message to you Complainers
TO ALL OF YOU THAT DON'T LIKE THIS GAME, THE UI, ETC. GO THE HELL BACK TO WHERE YOU ARE COMFORTABLE THEN IF YOU HATE IT SO MUCH! Go and play the games you like with the Ui's you are comfortable with and LEAVE OUR GAME ALONE!
We will take this game and watch it refine itself and you guys can go and play the games you like. Does it make this game better? No. Does it make your game better no. It just means get the heck out of our country and we'll stay the heck out of yours.
Shit. This stuff makes me sooooo pissed off. I hope Tanaka comes up with a virus to destroy peoples video cards that go and waste their time complaining about games they aren't going to play.
If you aren't gonna play it. GTFO and STAY OUT.
AND HAVE A NICE DAY
You wanted my time, so I played you. You wanted my money, I forked it over. You wanted my soul, I gave it willingly. Not to complain... but when do I get my end of the deal? And no, I don't want your flippin' carrot. If you can't do that give me back my youth and keep the change. Why don't you try chasing your own damn carrot for a change? I'll gladly hold the stick.
The UI design is what it is because the designers choose to focus on building it around a controller not because it is harder or requires more effort. But, it is a bit like eating a steak with chopsticks after seeing a knife and fork it doesn't mean that chopsticks are bad and it certainly doesn't mean they are harder to use after a bit of practice but unless the steak has been already cut for you it by the cook they may be more hassle than they should be.
I think the fanbois are gonna ruin this game for me. There's no subjectivity coming from you lot. You sound like those retarded f-tards in Horizons when that came out.
I think the fanbois are gonna ruin this game for me. There's no objectivity coming from you lot. You sound like those retarded f-tards in Horizons when that came out.
I think the fanbois are gonna ruin this game for me. There's no subjectivity coming from you lot. You sound like those retarded f-tards in Horizons when that came out.
If you believe the game has any merit, then you should totally understand that there's a difference.
For what it's worth, Horizons didn't fool me for a second. The developer who promises everything and the kitchen sink will likely deliver nothing, and following Horizons through development, that developer just couldn't seem to say no to anything suggested to him. It's a fair miracle they managed to put together a game at all in. It doesn't even make any sense trying to compare that to Final Fantasy XIV, a game made by truly outstanding development house that has made everything under the sun, including an MMORPG, before.
And what's more, I'm pleanty subjective, I just don't get to do it very often because this forum is ripe for trolling right now, and the haters know it, so guess what topics I end up stuck in?
Comments
No one thinks FFXIV requires a higher IQ or more thought because of the UI. Well, at least I hope they dont! I think what most people are trying to get to is that some people are used to a specific interface. Because lets face it, AoC, SWTOR, STO and the rest of MMO's trying to make there bid on the Game Community, all utilize the same UI. People have come accustomed to the idea of UI's staying the same. The moment they see or sense anything particularly similar to a previous game it automatically becomes a WoW remake. I understand it is a hard mantra to remove, but again everyone has been accustomed to that same idea.
Now when something else comes out that is different. It pretty easy to dislike. One reason mainly because it has completely gone against the grain that we know to be an MMO. For instance, my younger brother dislikes FFXIV. Its not because he is stupid, its because he has played WoW for several years now and finds it familiar. When he installed FFXIV I was pretty happy and thought I would be able to share it with my little bro. I simply asked him why he doesnt like FFXIV, he said its just not what Im used to. It looks really good and he doesnt doubt that it is. The moment the controls became so unfamiliar he was done. That doesnt make him lazy. That doesnt make him stupid. That doesnt make FFXIV a crappy game. Just something he is not willing to try. He specifically told me maybe later but right now he is happy with WoW.
I think people are simply confusing the obvious.
I wish i liked spaceships and PvP because EVE is a great game from what i have read. Well Actually I could play a spaceship mmo, but I just cant get into mmo PvP, I am glad eve is there tho it serves a vitial role in the mmorpg genre. Just like I am glad ffxi and now ffxiv are inthe mmo genre. Its something completly different than WoW clone # 453.
Waiting for:EQ-Next, ArcheAge (not so much anymore)
Now Playing: N/A
Worst MMO: FFXIV
Favorite MMO: FFXI
Odd, while I basically can agree with the OPs general comments and while I like and enjoyed EVE very much so far I have no so such feelings with FF XIV. I can recall when I first started with Eve and I really didn't have much frustration with its user interface since much of it made sense in context and while there were and are still areas that could use major improvement a lot of this is simply because there is so much going on that it is hard to display it and management it without giving over the entire screen for that. In FF XIV there seems to be no real justification in their choices other than this is what they wanted to do. There appears to be no ergonomic or game related reasons for their UI choices but as stated it isn't impossible to learn. Using a gamepad really hasn't been that hard and in fact I would argue that it is actually easier for the less mentally able to use a single controller with around a dozen buttons versus using two devices with with over 60 keys and a mouse with another 6 or more buttons depending on design.
The UI design is what it is because the designers choose to focus on building it around a controller not because it is harder or requires more effort. But, it is a bit like eating a steak with chopsticks after seeing a knife and fork it doesn't mean that chopsticks are bad and it certainly doesn't mean they are harder to use after a bit of practice but unless the steak has been already cut for you it by the cook they may be more hassle than they should be.
I will keep playing FF XIV for a bit more but so far I'm not really impressed with it and I don't see playing it for years like I have with Eve.
you are reading too deep into something that isnt there. im not saying people are to stupid to play. im saying not learning how to play is your own fault. just because you think the system is to complicated doesn't mean it is. Im not saying the methods the game uses are better or worse than any other. But it is the system it has chosen none the less. so if you arent going to put forth the "effort to learn" how to play. the person obviously isnt using their brain. im not talking about solving E=mc2 here.
Heh, I like that you accuse people of not wanting to learn to play a game as not using their brains. I could easily, and in fact am doing so, make the argument that people who play bad games are idiots. This is multi-fold because first its a bad game, and there are plenty of good games out there. Second, and this especially, when it encourages them to develope a superiority complex because they learned something unnecessarily complicated and chose to rub it in people's faces who actively chose not too.
I can sympathize with the unbelievable arrogance and asshattery of the people who support FFXIV because obviously people railed on the game for the amount of suck it currently has. I'd be pissed too if a game I loved was raked over the coals. The problem is, nobody can tell whether you actually love the game, are dramatically over compensating, sticking up for a lost cause, or just plain trolling.
Now as to the OP, EVE is a complex game, it has a really steep learning curve, and this is with pretty good tutorials, huge amounts of in game guides, built in and actually useful help channels, etc. FXIV is not. It is a game with zero help in the form of tutorials, currently, and needlessly complex and archaic interfaces. When tutorials are implemented in FFXIV then the games learning curve is going to be reduced to little more than WoW is because the game is simplistic in the extreme, there is just less information given in game which will reduce people to looking outside the game more, ie helpsites, which I will argue is BAD GAME DESIGN.
So I'm sorry, people don't play FFXIV because its hard and requires brain use, they are using their brains and making a choice of not playing a game that they don't like because its flawed, live with it.
I agree with this point.
If only they'd use their brains and make the choice to stop coming to the forums of the games they claim they don't like. To do otherwise seems... insincere.
But, nah, you folk who are clearly-more-on-the-fence-than-you're-letting-on can have this forum for the next four or five days. We FFXIV enthusiasts are mostly just trying not to burn out from the game before release, so we're not going to be here contesting your complaints much. (Unless, like me, they've a powerful pre-existing forum occupation habit.)
wow how clueless can people be? Not every gamer is the same. Telling me I shouldnt like this game is just the same as me telling you, that you shouldnt like beef, I mean seriously beef has been around forever, its so archaic, you should eat Tofu instead, its revolutionary, its new, its healthy.
Grow up kid if you dont like something move on, theres no need worry about what other people are enjoying, or why they are enjoying it. Just go back to what you enjoy. (Which I assunme is nothing because your here trolling, thats normally what the trolls consist of here, people who have no game to play so they come to other game forums to piss on others parade)
Waiting for:EQ-Next, ArcheAge (not so much anymore)
Now Playing: N/A
Worst MMO: FFXIV
Favorite MMO: FFXI
I understand where you're coming from. I just think that dismissing people that chose not to play this game by saying they are lazy or stupid is ridiculous. When people chose to stop playing this game, it is more likely they weighed their options and chose not to play it.
You know thats a great reason to stop playing, but it for some of these people on this site, it doesnt stop at that. They feel its their crusade to come and bash the game on the forums. and I ask why? If you dont like it put your effort into something more constructive.
Waiting for:EQ-Next, ArcheAge (not so much anymore)
Now Playing: N/A
Worst MMO: FFXIV
Favorite MMO: FFXI
There's a grain of truth to it, and as far as grains go, it's a mighty hard one to swallow, but it basically goes like this:
World of Warcraft was most people's first MMORPG. We know this because, when looking at the subscription numbers, even if you combined the players from all the other MMORPGs before it, you can tell from head count alone that the overwhelming majority of players were not those previous players.
World of Warcraft was so overwhelming successful than MMORPGs made since have tried to cop it. This ultimately failed, they did no better in subscription numbers than any game that copped EverQuest (the game everybody was trying to cop before World of Warcraft). However, it built up an expectation in MMORPG players that all MMORPGs must play like World of Warcraft.
Final Fantasy XIV was not based on World of Warcraft/EverQuest, it was based on Final Fantasy XI and, to a lesser extent, the entire Final Fantasy series. It would not make sense for Square-Enix to develop the game to look like anything but a Final Fantasy game.
Further, they don't particularly care if they get World of Warcraft millions because everyone who has tried to get World of Warcraft numbers by copying them has failed anyway. They'll be quite content with a few hundred thousand players which, all indications suggest, is easily doable.
So, in the end, we're left with seeing this happen over and over again on this forum:
Random MMORPG player comes into the Final Fantasy XIV forums. Chances are the overwhelming majority of MMORPGs s/he played looks like World of Warcraft.
Same Random MMORPG player slams the game, wants everybody to know it's evil and s/he hates it, because it does things so differently than they expected after being exposed to nothing but a procession of clones.
Those of us who happen to know the whole story (as outlined in the bullets above) inform them that they are ignorant.
Same random MMORPG player has now encountered resistance. Sophomorism instantly kicks in. S/he decides to have an argument about how arrogant we are.
Of course, there's plenty of support f or random MMORPG player, since anyone who has other than a World of Warcraft upbringing is in the minority. They start linking whatever agreeing sentiment they can find from their fellow relative newbs off the net in order to verify their case.
Those who happen to know the whole story have seen it fall before. We're sick of it. You hate the game? There's the door.
And this has been the reality for the history of this forum.
I think the other end of the spectrum does the same thing.
People go on crusades to defend games in the face of reasonable arguments. They resort to ad hominem attacks (like stupid or lazy). They look at the game and see the second coming of Christ. If anyone comes to "their" forum area to complain about some aspect of the game they love, they proceed to dismiss and insult and defend.
I think this was one of those cases. Trolls are equal opportunity in the case of MMO releases.
Let me put it all on the line: I've been playing games for 26 years. I'm as jaded as they get. I played Final Fantasy XIV for over 100 hours in the open beta before coming to my decision. I preordered it because there's adequate value there for it to be an excellent MMORPG, different interface, flaws and all. I'm putting some faith in Square-Enix that they can do the rest, sure, but why not? These guys are professionals.
Linking up a review of some guy who started ranting about MMORPGs in 2005? Does not impress me. That some people may not like the game? Completely expected, I'm telling them this for their own good: they can complain all they like, it won't change a thing, certainly not my mind, and the developers aren't coming here anyway. They might as well move on. If anyone, on site or off, wants to try to tell me that I shouldn't be enjoying the game, sorry, they're underqualified.
I'm not kicking you out. If you want to like this game, you're welcome to. However, there's a catch: you're going to have to try harder. "The interface is haaaard, I'm not used to it, and should not have to adapt" is about as much a lazy, ignorant casual player's complaint as I ever heard. "The game crashes sometimes and is buggy!" Hell, boyo, that's how we can tell it's innovatin'! It's not so complicated: if you can't play a core gamer's game, stop trying: it's not for you.
Whatever happen to the good old days where someone would just play a game to just simply.... play it. The only real questions as a gamer we should ask of our games are; Is it fun? Am i engaged? Do i like how this games plays? and other similar questions. If you can say yes to this questions what else matters. People find their own challenge in games and what maybe be challenging to one isn't to another and some don't want a a challenge but all players want the games they play to be fun and engaging, so stop bickering there is no real point, people will hate this game and others will love it, just enjoy it for what it is if you do and if you don't go enjoy something else. Also who gives a rats ass if the game is "flawed" since its in the eye of the beholder, if you find fun in the game of your choosing then have at it.
Please no more calling those who don't like the UI, or gameplay system of lesser intelligence as it has nothing to do with it, they simply might not like the feel of the game and that is fine by me; also just because someone enjoys it and takes the time to learn it doesn't make them smarter or an elitist, its just what they like deal with it. God these arguments make me want to punch a baby.
We go trough life with many yet there is a time we must walk our path alone.
If my PC could run it well enough for me to be happy playing it, I'd be right there playing the game with you.
I still think calling people stupid and lazy for their decision not to play the game is ridiculous.
Well, along those lines, I have some simple advice for those people: if they don't want to be called stupid or lazy, they should stop imitating a stupid, lazy person. "I just can't handle this interface," sounds a whole lot like that when a lot of us here can handle this interface, and have. We know the solution: try harder. If trying harder doesn't work, perhaps you just lack the mental faculty. This isn't an insult: it's physics.
And they'll retort with stuff like, "well, they should make it for casual smucks like me so they can make more money, that's just basic usability!"
And I'm like "sure, yeah, they could do that, if they don't mind kicking us core gamers out into the cold like everybody else does. Don't you smucks have enough games to play already?"
"But I want to play this game! It's pretty!"
"Yes, thanks, that's great. *sigh* God, I'm glad Square-Enix knows a starving niche when they see one."
I see less of the highlighted red and more of this:
"This interface is obnoxious!"
And I can see their point. I just don't have a problem with getting used to it.
I can see their point too, and I don't have a problem with getting used to it, and this is where calling them lazy and stupid comes in: they, like me, like you, can get used to it if they apply themselves. If they don't want to apply themselves, what word would you use to describe that behavior? No, you can't answer "typical" unless you describe what "typical" behavior means in this context.
I think that the people choosing not to play have more complaints than that.
Even if that was their singular reason for not playing, it's just as valid as any other reason not to play a game. It doesn't make them stupid or lazy. It makes them picky.
Yes, but in my experience on these forums, the overwhleming majority of it is, "it doesn't play like the games I'm used to."
Yeah, that's a bit like saying, "he wouldn't choose to play the game because he's choosy."
Listen, I know it's not nice to tell somebody that they're being ignorant or lazy. And personally I don't get off on doing so. (Though I do admit a certain smug satisfaction to having a game with a minimum barrier of entry.)
However, when someone backs me into the corner and demands, "why can't I enjoy this game, why do you claim to enjoy this game I cannot enjoy? I'm putting a review on your forums to prove that you should hate this game!" Then they don't leave me much choice, now do they?
Exactly! There are soo many other games out there made for people who WANT instant gratification or who DON'T like any grind, or WANT to be able to get the game right off the bat.
Some of us LIKE not knowing and going in feet first. New games are like visiting a new country and in a lot of ways it is, some of us LIKE getting acquainted with the culture and adapting to what is there. And others only want to go visit countries where they understand the language and know they can find a McDonalds.
The UI FFXIV has is part of the experience learn it's language instead of insisting everyone speak the way you want them to.
A Short and Sweet Message to you Complainers
TO ALL OF YOU THAT DON'T LIKE THIS GAME, THE UI, ETC. GO THE HELL BACK TO WHERE YOU ARE COMFORTABLE THEN IF YOU HATE IT SO MUCH! Go and play the games you like with the Ui's you are comfortable with and LEAVE OUR GAME ALONE!
We will take this game and watch it refine itself and you guys can go and play the games you like. Does it make this game better? No. Does it make your game better no. It just means get the heck out of our country and we'll stay the heck out of yours.
Shit. This stuff makes me sooooo pissed off. I hope Tanaka comes up with a virus to destroy peoples video cards that go and waste their time complaining about games they aren't going to play.
If you aren't gonna play it. GTFO and STAY OUT.
AND HAVE A NICE DAY
You wanted my time, so I played you. You wanted my money, I forked it over. You wanted my soul, I gave it willingly. Not to complain... but when do I get my end of the deal? And no, I don't want your flippin' carrot. If you can't do that give me back my youth and keep the change. Why don't you try chasing your own damn carrot for a change? I'll gladly hold the stick.
This is a great analogy.
I think the fanbois are gonna ruin this game for me. There's no subjectivity coming from you lot. You sound like those retarded f-tards in Horizons when that came out.
uh, erm, fixed.
If you believe the game has any merit, then you should totally understand that there's a difference.
For what it's worth, Horizons didn't fool me for a second. The developer who promises everything and the kitchen sink will likely deliver nothing, and following Horizons through development, that developer just couldn't seem to say no to anything suggested to him. It's a fair miracle they managed to put together a game at all in. It doesn't even make any sense trying to compare that to Final Fantasy XIV, a game made by truly outstanding development house that has made everything under the sun, including an MMORPG, before.
And what's more, I'm pleanty subjective, I just don't get to do it very often because this forum is ripe for trolling right now, and the haters know it, so guess what topics I end up stuck in?