I used the auto-translate in Chrome, and with that I was able to pick apart pieces of the translated garble. Things like...
"this work in late September 2010 is now in alpha"
"Do not buy this game"
"The user interface is bad and frustrating to respond to anything. "
"Sure the graphics are beautiful."
"Currently, the corrections needed to play the game without stress "
"Why Square Enix Fallen so far"
"Tester's opinion largely ignored"
Any fanboys want to defend Japanese hatred at this game now? I can continue translating some if you'd like.
Whats the need to defend? people who dislike this game would try to pull as much negative reviews as they can. They need to validate their hate and feel right.
I would rather wait for professional reviews from IGN, Gamespot etc. Even if half of the players who are enjoying the game find time to post a line or two on website. positive reviews will outnumbers negative considerably. But people who are enjoying the game they are busy playing.
Sooo you would rather listen to people that are paid to write reviews? (not to mention maybe paid by certain gaming companies to write reviews on a positive/negative basis)
The more honest reviews are the ones by people that are experiencing the game the way an average gamer would experience it.
Are u serous?? Honest reviews by average gamers??
Must be nice in your lil world but the last week and all the threats we saw here prove u wrong.
I do however agree that Paid testers opinions shouldn't matter more than the one from Gamers.
After all reading all the threats on this side would make me believe the game is absolutely unplayable yet i have more fun than i had with all other mmos that came out in the past few years its all about personal preferences and not about some Ratings by players or paid testers.
How are the reviews not honest? (I have yet to have someone answer this question) If someone likes it then they will say they like it.... if they don't then they will say they don't. Opinions can't be taken as fact from either side.
I used the auto-translate in Chrome, and with that I was able to pick apart pieces of the translated garble. Things like...
"this work in late September 2010 is now in alpha"
"Do not buy this game"
"The user interface is bad and frustrating to respond to anything. "
"Sure the graphics are beautiful."
"Currently, the corrections needed to play the game without stress "
"Why Square Enix Fallen so far"
"Tester's opinion largely ignored"
Any fanboys want to defend Japanese hatred at this game now? I can continue translating some if you'd like.
Whats the need to defend? people who dislike this game would try to pull as much negative reviews as they can. They need to validate their hate and feel right.
I would rather wait for professional reviews from IGN, Gamespot etc. Even if half of the players who are enjoying the game find time to post a line or two on website. positive reviews will outnumbers negative considerably. But people who are enjoying the game they are busy playing.
Sooo you would rather listen to people that are paid to write reviews? (not to mention maybe paid by certain gaming companies to write reviews on a positive/negative basis)
The more honest reviews are the ones by people that are experiencing the game the way an average gamer would experience it.
This excuse is getting old. Unless you have proof that all these gaming websites are paid to write reviews? and an average player is free from all ulterior motives is that what you are telling me? an average gamer is not biased or prejudiced? i don't think so.
The average gamer isn't lying regardless of their motives, if they don't like the game they are going to say it, if they like it then they are going to say it. It is an honest opinion...
You can take your chances with a handful of so called 'professional' reviewers that may or may not be getting paid, or you can go for the 100% reviewers... pick your logic.
The point is whether or not their opinion matters in the long run. Paid reviewers for the most part have to follow a code of conduct set forth by their editor. They are journalist, and in theory this means they are to stay as objective and neutral as possible. Forum users on the other hand tend to let their emotions get the better of them.
So they censor themselves and don't give you a completely honest review?
So they censor themselves and don't give you a completely honest review?
They don't let their emotions run rampant in a hissy fit as much as non-professional reviewers, who do reviews for their job day in and day out.
Anyway, the discussion is futile, both have their merits, professional and common gamer reviews, as long as you can see them clearly for what they are.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I used the auto-translate in Chrome, and with that I was able to pick apart pieces of the translated garble. Things like...
"this work in late September 2010 is now in alpha"
"Do not buy this game"
"The user interface is bad and frustrating to respond to anything. "
"Sure the graphics are beautiful."
"Currently, the corrections needed to play the game without stress "
"Why Square Enix Fallen so far"
"Tester's opinion largely ignored"
Any fanboys want to defend Japanese hatred at this game now? I can continue translating some if you'd like.
Whats the need to defend? people who dislike this game would try to pull as much negative reviews as they can. They need to validate their hate and feel right.
I would rather wait for professional reviews from IGN, Gamespot etc. Even if half of the players who are enjoying the game find time to post a line or two on website. positive reviews will outnumbers negative considerably. But people who are enjoying the game they are busy playing.
Sooo you would rather listen to people that are paid to write reviews? (not to mention maybe paid by certain gaming companies to write reviews on a positive/negative basis)
The more honest reviews are the ones by people that are experiencing the game the way an average gamer would experience it.
This excuse is getting old. Unless you have proof that all these gaming websites are paid to write reviews? and an average player is free from all ulterior motives is that what you are telling me? an average gamer is not biased or prejudiced? i don't think so.
The average gamer isn't lying regardless of their motives, if they don't like the game they are going to say it, if they like it then they are going to say it. It is an honest opinion...
You can take your chances with a handful of so called 'professional' reviewers that may or may not be getting paid, or you can go for the 100% reviewers... pick your logic.
My logic states that an average gamer would give negative review to a particular game for variety of reasons which is not always based on in game experince. I have seen it happening many times before. Players giving bad reviews to other games just to make their favorite look good.
Not saying every gamer does that but to say an average gamer is more honest than professional reviewer is not entirely true.
Enough of this. How about someone post some links telling me who S-E was targetting, otherwise this is simply a "He said. she said.". If we can't have anyone prove who S-E was targetting or what if the people you are complaining about are indeed part of this niche, but feel like S-E missed the ball, then why are we even having this argument? Can you prove that they aren't?
Honestly, that's what I don't understand. Seriously, can we stop with the "It's a niche game"? It's not a good argument. It never will be, and covering it in fancy long sentences doesn't make it any better.
Exactly how much more casual will FF XIV be than FF XI? Is FF XIV designed to try to appeal to a new casual crowd and leave the hardcore group players in FF XI? Is FF XIV trying to attract both at the same time and try to become the first historical game that successfully combines hardcore and casual aspects?
The first question about the casual aspect. We will have a casual aspect, but we're not going to only target the casual players. Its really a users choice. We will be able to provide a variety of aspects to the game that casual players will enjoy but the hardcore players will enjoy it as well. And also for FFXI and FFXIV we aim to support both players, although FFXIV is using a new graphics engine, so we're providing current FFXI players with an option if they want to play FFXI of course that is fine, but they're also very welcome to play FFXIV.
Hiromichi Tanaka also says that it would be very nice if the players of other Final Fantasy games who never played FFXI would play FFXIV. So that is one of the goals.
So basically they're aiming at the Final Fantasy fans who haven't played MMO's due to having a casual aspect of FFXIV, but also at the same time giving the hardcore MMO players something to enjoy as well.
There you have it. A lot of thought went into the specific niche they wanted to target. Not just casual. Not just hardcore. But Final Fantasy fans who couldn't get into MMOs before, with enough there that a hardcore player could enjoy the game.
We do not try to compete with World of Warcraft. We really want to convince the fans of Final Fantasy who have never played an MMORPG. But also show to casual gamers that MMORPGs are very exciting to play. We really hope that Final Fantasy XIV will be a good first experience for those new players.
The lack of resemblance to World of Warcraft in FFXIV? Highly deliberate.
Can you stop proclaiming it as some kind of feature then and focus more on actual features? This game is a niche game. So are the worst games made ever. So are the best games made ever. So the word niche should never be used again to defend the actual features and elements of this game.
I would, if it wasn't the central point of what's going on here with the overwhelmingly negative player-written reviews on this Japanese site. They're there because these are mostly players who found out, rudely, that they were not the type of player intended to play this game. You'll find similar reviews for any game ever made. Consequently, you can't draw much from it.
You can't take player reviews seriously because most of the players who enjoy the game will probably never go to a site and write up a review. They don't have a reason to do so. However, players who disliked the game will, because they want to vent their frustations somewhere.
Enough of this. How about someone post some links telling me who S-E was targetting, otherwise this is simply a "He said. she said.". If we can't have anyone prove who S-E was targetting or what if the people you are complaining about are indeed part of this niche, but feel like S-E missed the ball, then why are we even having this argument? Can you prove that they aren't?
Honestly, that's what I don't understand. Seriously, can we stop with the "It's a niche game"? It's not a good argument. It never will be, and covering it in fancy long sentences doesn't make it any better.
~Miles "Tails" Prower out! Catch me if you can!
^ I myself would love to see all the links of the target audience. as far as i know there is alot out there on how they want their bite in the casual market. thus wanting the game more casual freindly.
I used the auto-translate in Chrome, and with that I was able to pick apart pieces of the translated garble. Things like...
"this work in late September 2010 is now in alpha"
"Do not buy this game"
"The user interface is bad and frustrating to respond to anything. "
"Sure the graphics are beautiful."
"Currently, the corrections needed to play the game without stress "
"Why Square Enix Fallen so far"
"Tester's opinion largely ignored"
Any fanboys want to defend Japanese hatred at this game now? I can continue translating some if you'd like.
Whats the need to defend? people who dislike this game would try to pull as much negative reviews as they can. They need to validate their hate and feel right.
I would rather wait for professional reviews from IGN, Gamespot etc. Even if half of the players who are enjoying the game find time to post a line or two on website. positive reviews will outnumbers negative considerably. But people who are enjoying the game they are busy playing.
Sooo you would rather listen to people that are paid to write reviews? (not to mention maybe paid by certain gaming companies to write reviews on a positive/negative basis)
The more honest reviews are the ones by people that are experiencing the game the way an average gamer would experience it.
There are far to many trolls and fanboys to take a user review as a good source of reliable information.
Not to mention these user reviews are often influenced heavily through personal bias, hardware/software issues on their end, and general lack of gameplay talent and overview.
Professional reviews have their flaws, but are still much more reliable.
So you would take the opinions of say 5 people over the opinions of 1000?
Irrelevant question,1000 people can and do say World of Warcraft is bad , but 5 professional reviewing teams can tell me it's a solid good game. And they would be correct, despite my dislike for the game.
I would also say 1000 players who barely touched the game and have no reviewing or gaming talent what so ever, are hardly credible compared to 5 trained professional reviewers.
I used the auto-translate in Chrome, and with that I was able to pick apart pieces of the translated garble. Things like...
"this work in late September 2010 is now in alpha"
"Do not buy this game"
"The user interface is bad and frustrating to respond to anything. "
"Sure the graphics are beautiful."
"Currently, the corrections needed to play the game without stress "
"Why Square Enix Fallen so far"
"Tester's opinion largely ignored"
Any fanboys want to defend Japanese hatred at this game now? I can continue translating some if you'd like.
Whats the need to defend? people who dislike this game would try to pull as much negative reviews as they can. They need to validate their hate and feel right.
I would rather wait for professional reviews from IGN, Gamespot etc. Even if half of the players who are enjoying the game find time to post a line or two on website. positive reviews will outnumbers negative considerably. But people who are enjoying the game they are busy playing.
Sooo you would rather listen to people that are paid to write reviews? (not to mention maybe paid by certain gaming companies to write reviews on a positive/negative basis)
The more honest reviews are the ones by people that are experiencing the game the way an average gamer would experience it.
Are u serous?? Honest reviews by average gamers??
Must be nice in your lil world but the last week and all the threats we saw here prove u wrong.
I do however agree that Paid testers opinions shouldn't matter more than the one from Gamers.
After all reading all the threats on this side would make me believe the game is absolutely unplayable yet i have more fun than i had with all other mmos that came out in the past few years its all about personal preferences and not about some Ratings by players or paid testers.
How are the reviews not honest? (I have yet to have someone answer this question) If someone likes it then they will say they like it.... if they don't then they will say they don't. Opinions can't be taken as fact from either side.
A very valid point. However the question should not be the honesty of the reviewer but should be is the reviewer being objective. My point has been that people let their emotions and popular opinion determine way to much of how they think. I believe this is a product of our current mindset in this "Post-Modern" society; that believes that popular opinion is truth no matter how off base it is. Truth is not subjective to the whims of popular opinion, but instead is the object of the facts.
That being said I just want to reiterate that this game has not been out long enough for us to have decent reviews. In the end time is the only reviewer that matters. If this game is great than a good number of people will still be playing it two years from now; however if this game proves to be terrible then we will see a sharp decline in its player-base over time. The only real way of measuring anything is time, because only time has the ability to judge without prejudice.
"Never pay more than 20 bucks for a computer game."-Guybrush Threepwood "I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me."-Hunter S. Thompson
I'm sorry I don't have time to translate each post on that original link, but man, as I read them, some are unbelievably harsh >_<
You can find one english post among all of them and even that one seems fair lol.
I'll quote a few more:
"The game is full of BOTS always spamming"
"Even as a FF fan, I was correct in my choice to stay away from this game"
Talking about the gift you get with the CE - "The item I got was garbage made in China"
"I just got the game 2 days ago, and I have no idea what I should be doing. Even if I try to go out and level all the mobs are taken by other people. I don't want to level a class that I have no interest in leveling because of the XP fatigue. Although I am a CE customer, I doubt I will continue to subscribe to this game. I can't see this game being fun"
"I've spent over 10000yen (100$) on this game, but basically even a free game is better, the UI is bad, the quests aren't fun”
There are so many like this, it is crazy! Also, don't get mad at me for just translating hehe - I was as surprised as you will be when I read these...
I used the auto-translate in Chrome, and with that I was able to pick apart pieces of the translated garble. Things like...
"this work in late September 2010 is now in alpha"
"Do not buy this game"
"The user interface is bad and frustrating to respond to anything. "
"Sure the graphics are beautiful."
"Currently, the corrections needed to play the game without stress "
"Why Square Enix Fallen so far"
"Tester's opinion largely ignored"
Any fanboys want to defend Japanese hatred at this game now? I can continue translating some if you'd like.
Whats the need to defend? people who dislike this game would try to pull as much negative reviews as they can. They need to validate their hate and feel right.
I would rather wait for professional reviews from IGN, Gamespot etc. Even if half of the players who are enjoying the game find time to post a line or two on website. positive reviews will outnumbers negative considerably. But people who are enjoying the game they are busy playing.
Sooo you would rather listen to people that are paid to write reviews? (not to mention maybe paid by certain gaming companies to write reviews on a positive/negative basis)
The more honest reviews are the ones by people that are experiencing the game the way an average gamer would experience it.
This excuse is getting old. Unless you have proof that all these gaming websites are paid to write reviews? and an average player is free from all ulterior motives is that what you are telling me? an average gamer is not biased or prejudiced? i don't think so.
The average gamer isn't lying regardless of their motives, if they don't like the game they are going to say it, if they like it then they are going to say it. It is an honest opinion...
You can take your chances with a handful of so called 'professional' reviewers that may or may not be getting paid, or you can go for the 100% reviewers... pick your logic.
My logic states that an average gamer would give negative review to a particular game for variety of reasons which is not always based on in game experince. I have seen it happening many times before. Players giving bad reviews to other games just to make their favorite look good.
Not saying every gamer does that but to say an average gamer is more honest than professional reviewer is not entirely true.
If the game didn't draw them in and they dislike it no matter what the motive, then a negative review is an honest review. It wasn't good enough 'for them' and the review is their opinion.
What is not honest is a professional censoring themselves in order to stay 'professional' you don't get 100% of their opinion and experience.
Enough of this. How about someone post some links telling me who S-E was targetting, otherwise this is simply a "He said. she said.". If we can't have anyone prove who S-E was targetting or what if the people you are complaining about are indeed part of this niche, but feel like S-E missed the ball, then why are we even having this argument? Can you prove that they aren't?
Honestly, that's what I don't understand. Seriously, can we stop with the "It's a niche game"? It's not a good argument. It never will be, and covering it in fancy long sentences doesn't make it any better.
Exactly how much more casual will FF XIV be than FF XI? Is FF XIV designed to try to appeal to a new casual crowd and leave the hardcore group players in FF XI? Is FF XIV trying to attract both at the same time and try to become the first historical game that successfully combines hardcore and casual aspects?
The first question about the casual aspect. We will have a casual aspect, but we're not going to only target the casual players. Its really a users choice. We will be able to provide a variety of aspects to the game that casual players will enjoy but the hardcore players will enjoy it as well. And also for FFXI and FFXIV we aim to support both players, although FFXIV is using a new graphics engine, so we're providing current FFXI players with an option if they want to play FFXI of course that is fine, but they're also very welcome to play FFXIV.
Hiromichi Tanaka also says that it would be very nice if the players of other Final Fantasy games who never played FFXI would play FFXIV. So that is one of the goals.
So basically they're aiming at the Final Fantasy fans who haven't played MMO's due to having a casual aspect of FFXIV, but also at the same time giving the hardcore MMO players something to enjoy as well.
There you have it. They're targeting "Final Fantasy plans who haven't played MMO's due to having a casual aspect of FFXIV, but also at the same time giving the hardcore MMO players something to nejoy as well."
So its set in stone.
"The first question about the casual aspect. We will have a casual aspect, but we're not going to only target the casual players."
they are clearly wanting a pie in the casual market .
"Its really a users choice. We will be able to provide a variety of aspects to the game that casual players will enjoy but the hardcore players will enjoy it as well."
They want to have the game open to both causal players and hardcore players.
"And also for FFXI and FFXIV we aim to support both players, although FFXIV is using a new graphics engine, so we're providing current FFXI players with an option if they want to play FFXI of course that is fine, but they're also very welcome to play FFXIV."
They are also targeting players of their other mmopg ff11 and people who have played final fantasy games.
so they want to target the casual players, the hardcore and the fans of final fantasy.
Really, that's just deflecting the truth with fancy words. We could subject any game with that very same sentence and in truth it would be a "valid" argument.
Allow me to explain:
Basically, World of Warcraft is a niche game. We knew this from the start. Just because there's a bunch of knuckleheads bashing their heads into it and saying, "OW! I'M NOT PART OF THE INTENDED NICHE! THIS GAME SUCKS!" doesn't mean that the game isn't excellent at the niche it was intended for.
Basically, Darkfall is a niche game. We knew this from the start. Just because there's a bunch of knuckleheads bashing their heads into it and saying, "OW! I'M NOT PART OF THE INTENDED NICHE! THIS GAME SUCKS!" doesn't mean that the game isn't excellent at the niche it was intended for.
Basically, Aion is a niche game. We knew this from the start. Just because there's a bunch of knuckleheads bashing their heads into it and saying, "OW! I'M NOT PART OF THE INTENDED NICHE! THIS GAME SUCKS!" doesn't mean that the game isn't excellent at the niche it was intended for.
Have I proved my point yet?
~Miles "Tails" Prower out! Catch me if you can!
I hate to break it to you, Tails, but declaring something invalid and trying to prove it by repeating it three times with tile substitutions doesn't prove anything. Though it might summon Betelgeuse if you're not careful.
If anything, you've proved my point. That each one of these games did have a niche. That each one of these games would have people who said it was a terrible game because they're not part of the intended niche. That each one of these games, last I checked, was still alive and well. (Although Darkfall is probably limping, given that hardcore PvP never was a particularly popular niche and they rolled the game vulnerable to exploits.)
So then every game has a niche.
Can you stop proclaiming it as some kind of feature then and focus more on actual features? This game is a niche game. So are the worst games made ever. So are the best games made ever. So the word niche should never be used again to defend the actual features and elements of this game.
Its because buzz/weasel words make everything better. Advertising/Marketing/PR people know that by labeling things in such a way, a negative can suddenly appear to be a positive. 'Niche' is used in MMIO's as a qualifier for 'very small amounts of people' by fans/PR to make the fact that a game isn't widely liked by players sound better by making it instead sound like it was 'aimed' at a specific type of player.
FFXIV was a game that was designed to be enjoyed by casuals and hardcores alike, according to the various dev interviews, and wasn't designed for any specific 'niche' as a lot of the die hards will try to convince you of. They also stated that the game was to be more westernized than FFXI was, to appeal more to US/EU players. So basically we are being told by fans of the game that it's a game aimed at a niche while the devs themselves talk about how the game is being made to appeal to a bigger audience and get more people involved in the game (the whole design of the game was to make it supposedly more friendly to a larger audience than FFXI appealed to).
So which is it?
Who are we supposed to listen to? The fans or the devs themselves?
A niche is discovered over time and not something that is intentionally aimed for. When something aims toward a specific niche, it usually always ends up being a disaster.
There are 3 types of people in the world. 1.) Those who make things happen 2.) Those who watch things happen 3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
If they do their job right, then you'll get a more honest, more indepth and objective review that exposes the goods and the bads of a game than you are able to get from most of the common gamers. It's their job. They've been doing it for years and years.
What you're basically saying is that their job is meaningless of all the movie reviewers, game reviewers, professional reporters, journalists, since everyone can do it and even better than they can.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I used the auto-translate in Chrome, and with that I was able to pick apart pieces of the translated garble. Things like...
"this work in late September 2010 is now in alpha"
"Do not buy this game"
"The user interface is bad and frustrating to respond to anything. "
"Sure the graphics are beautiful."
"Currently, the corrections needed to play the game without stress "
"Why Square Enix Fallen so far"
"Tester's opinion largely ignored"
Any fanboys want to defend Japanese hatred at this game now? I can continue translating some if you'd like.
Whats the need to defend? people who dislike this game would try to pull as much negative reviews as they can. They need to validate their hate and feel right.
I would rather wait for professional reviews from IGN, Gamespot etc. Even if half of the players who are enjoying the game find time to post a line or two on website. positive reviews will outnumbers negative considerably. But people who are enjoying the game they are busy playing.
Sooo you would rather listen to people that are paid to write reviews? (not to mention maybe paid by certain gaming companies to write reviews on a positive/negative basis)
The more honest reviews are the ones by people that are experiencing the game the way an average gamer would experience it.
This excuse is getting old. Unless you have proof that all these gaming websites are paid to write reviews? and an average player is free from all ulterior motives is that what you are telling me? an average gamer is not biased or prejudiced? i don't think so.
The average gamer isn't lying regardless of their motives, if they don't like the game they are going to say it, if they like it then they are going to say it. It is an honest opinion...
You can take your chances with a handful of so called 'professional' reviewers that may or may not be getting paid, or you can go for the 100% reviewers... pick your logic.
My logic states that an average gamer would give negative review to a particular game for variety of reasons which is not always based on in game experince. I have seen it happening many times before. Players giving bad reviews to other games just to make their favorite look good.
Not saying every gamer does that but to say an average gamer is more honest than professional reviewer is not entirely true.
If the game didn't draw them in and they dislike it no matter what the motive, then a negative review is an honest review. It wasn't good enough 'for them' and the review is their opinion.
What is not honest is a professional censoring themselves in order to stay 'professional' you don't get 100% of their opinion and experience.
You really need to understand what being 'honest means'. You are contradicting yourself. Honest review is something which is not effected by motives like bias and prejudice. If a professional reviewer is being paid he is being dishonest but an average gamer giving negative reviews is honest even if he suffers from bias? seriously you are not making any sense.
Enough of this. How about someone post some links telling me who S-E was targetting, otherwise this is simply a "He said. she said.". If we can't have anyone prove who S-E was targetting or what if the people you are complaining about are indeed part of this niche, but feel like S-E missed the ball, then why are we even having this argument? Can you prove that they aren't?
Honestly, that's what I don't understand. Seriously, can we stop with the "It's a niche game"? It's not a good argument. It never will be, and covering it in fancy long sentences doesn't make it any better.
Exactly how much more casual will FF XIV be than FF XI? Is FF XIV designed to try to appeal to a new casual crowd and leave the hardcore group players in FF XI? Is FF XIV trying to attract both at the same time and try to become the first historical game that successfully combines hardcore and casual aspects?
The first question about the casual aspect. We will have a casual aspect, but we're not going to only target the casual players. Its really a users choice. We will be able to provide a variety of aspects to the game that casual players will enjoy but the hardcore players will enjoy it as well. And also for FFXI and FFXIV we aim to support both players, although FFXIV is using a new graphics engine, so we're providing current FFXI players with an option if they want to play FFXI of course that is fine, but they're also very welcome to play FFXIV.
Hiromichi Tanaka also says that it would be very nice if the players of other Final Fantasy games who never played FFXI would play FFXIV. So that is one of the goals.
So basically they're aiming at the Final Fantasy fans who haven't played MMO's due to having a casual aspect of FFXIV, but also at the same time giving the hardcore MMO players something to enjoy as well.
There you have it. They're targeting "Final Fantasy plans who haven't played MMO's due to having a casual aspect of FFXIV, but also at the same time giving the hardcore MMO players something to nejoy as well."
I fall into all of their stated niches and am finding the game to be riddled with, what in my view, are flaws that will cause me to not purchase the game. I also think that there are a lot of other people that fall into their stated niche that feel the same way.
Enough of this. How about someone post some links telling me who S-E was targetting, otherwise this is simply a "He said. she said.". If we can't have anyone prove who S-E was targetting or what if the people you are complaining about are indeed part of this niche, but feel like S-E missed the ball, then why are we even having this argument? Can you prove that they aren't?
Honestly, that's what I don't understand. Seriously, can we stop with the "It's a niche game"? It's not a good argument. It never will be, and covering it in fancy long sentences doesn't make it any better.
Exactly how much more casual will FF XIV be than FF XI? Is FF XIV designed to try to appeal to a new casual crowd and leave the hardcore group players in FF XI? Is FF XIV trying to attract both at the same time and try to become the first historical game that successfully combines hardcore and casual aspects?
The first question about the casual aspect. We will have a casual aspect, but we're not going to only target the casual players. Its really a users choice. We will be able to provide a variety of aspects to the game that casual players will enjoy but the hardcore players will enjoy it as well. And also for FFXI and FFXIV we aim to support both players, although FFXIV is using a new graphics engine, so we're providing current FFXI players with an option if they want to play FFXI of course that is fine, but they're also very welcome to play FFXIV.
Hiromichi Tanaka also says that it would be very nice if the players of other Final Fantasy games who never played FFXI would play FFXIV. So that is one of the goals.
So basically they're aiming at the Final Fantasy fans who haven't played MMO's due to having a casual aspect of FFXIV, but also at the same time giving the hardcore MMO players something to enjoy as well.
There you have it. A lot of thought went into the specific niche they wanted to target. Not just casual. Not just hardcore. But Final Fantasy fans who couldn't get into MMOs before, with enough there that a hardcore player could enjoy the game.
We do not try to compete with World of Warcraft. We really want to convince the fans of Final Fantasy who have never played an MMORPG. But also show to casual gamers that MMORPGs are very exciting to play. We really hope that Final Fantasy XIV will be a good first experience for those new players.
The lack of resemblance to World of Warcraft in FFXIV? Highly deliberate.
What that little bit of info says is they made a game to appeal to players new to the genre as well as established players of the genre. So basically 'Anyone who wants to play'. That doesn't sound like a niche to me.
There are 3 types of people in the world. 1.) Those who make things happen 2.) Those who watch things happen 3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
You really need to understand what being 'honest means'. You are contradicting yourself. Honest review is something which is not effected by motives like bias and prejudice. If a professional reviewer is being paid he is being dishonest but an average gamer giving negative reviews is honest even if he suffers from bias? seriously you are not making any sense.
Where am I contradicting myself?
Bias and prejudice is a factor when it comes to an individuals opinion of something, it determines how they experience whatever it is they are doing.
" If a professional reviewer is being paid he is being dishonest" Correct!
"Seriously you are not making any sense" and "You are contradicting yourself." from your earlier statements.
Its because buzz/weasel words make everything better. Advertising/Marketing/PR people know that by labeling things in such a way, a negative can suddenly appear to be a positive. 'Niche' is used in MMIO's as a qualifier for 'very small amounts of people' by fans/PR to make the fact that a game isn't widely liked by players sound better by making it instead sound like it was 'aimed' at a specific type of player.
"Niche" means much more than that, actually. It's a word that you use when you understand that it's very difficult to entice players away from an existing MMORPG, because that's where all their friends at, where they have invested hundreds of hours leveling up a character, ect. Consequently, what you do is try to entice players who haven't tried or are alienated from the existing MMORPGs, in other word, you try to indentify unclaimed niches.
Final Fantasy XIV is coming at the game post-Warhammer Online, post-Age of Conan, post Lord of the Rings Online. Many games which have tried to copy World of Warcraft, and didn't manage to wrest way more than the average EverQuest clone. Consequently, any developer worth their salt knows that copying World of Warcraft just doesn't work.
Originally posted by fyerwall
FFXIV was a game that was designed to be enjoyed by casuals and hardcores alike, according to the various dev interviews, and wasn't designed for any specific 'niche' as a lot of the die hards will try to convince you of. They also stated that the game was to be more westernized than FFXI was, to appeal more to US/EU players. So basically we are being told by fans of the game that it's a game aimed at a niche while the devs themselves talk about how the game is being made to appeal to a bigger audience and get more people involved in the game (the whole design of the game was to make it supposedly more friendly to a larger audience than FFXI appealed to).
Who are we supposed to listen to? The fans or the devs themselves?
Nothing to do with the rest of your message... but if I had to choose between the two, I tihnk I'd choose the guys who are making the game as opposed to some random players' opinions, at least if the topic is, "when you were creating this game, who did you intend to have play it?"
Originally posted by fyerwall
A niche is discovered over time and not something that is intentionally aimed for. When something aims toward a specific niche, it usually always ends up being a disaster.
Shoot, even when I provide evidence that they have, in fact, deliberately aimed for a niche, you don't believe they deliberately aim for a niche? Granted, you're right that what they end up with may be different than what they aimed for. MMORPG communities tend to grow organically in expected directions. However, they're still trying to capture a specific audience.
Originally posted by fyerwall
What that little bit of info says is they made a game to appeal to players new to the genre as well as established players of the genre. So basically 'Anyone who wants to play'. That doesn't sound like a niche to me.
"Anyone who wants to play" is very much a niche... once you start to break down the factors of why they'd want to play. If you're a game developer, these factors are something you are paid to consider and try to understand, constantly, on every level of the game.
Bias and prejudice is a factor when it comes to an individuals opinion of something, it determines how they experience whatever it is they are doing.
" If a professional reviewer is being paid he is being dishonest" Correct!
"Seriously you are not making any sense" and "You are contradicting yourself." from your earlier statements.
So what you're basically saying is 'screw all the professional reviewers, reporters, journalists because everyone else can do it better'.
Hmm, interesting viewpoint. I guess in that viewpoint everyone who gives their opinion or reports on something and is being paid for it because it's his/her job can't be trusted.
Well, i think we should just scrap all the journalism studies or the whole profession of journalism or writing columns or reviews in magazines, tv, sites, wherever, since it's all worthless anyway. Good plan
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
You really need to understand what being 'honest means'. You are contradicting yourself. Honest review is something which is not effected by motives like bias and prejudice. If a professional reviewer is being paid he is being dishonest but an average gamer giving negative reviews is honest even if he suffers from bias? seriously you are not making any sense.
Where am I contradicting myself?
Bias and prejudice is a factor when it comes to an individuals opinion of something, it determines how they experience whatever it is they are doing.
" If a professional reviewer is being paid he is being dishonest" Correct!
"Seriously you are not making any sense" and "You are contradicting yourself." from your earlier statements.
If a professional reviewer is being paid his ulterior motive is money so he is dis honest. If any average player is giving negative review to a game out of bias than his ulterior motive is prejudice and he is also dishonest. How hard is it to understand? motive is a motive doesn't matter what it is. When your review is effected by such factors you are not being honest. Simples.
So no way an average gamer is more honest than a professional reviewer.
90% of haters are begging for love. 10% just want a little attention -- Paulo Coelho
Does anyone have more links to some Japanese sites that have customer reviews?
Probably not since the OP was being selective and found the one that fit their view of the game the most. I would take a look myself, but I must admit I don't have the patience to wade through poorly translated Japanese by Google.
"Never pay more than 20 bucks for a computer game."-Guybrush Threepwood "I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me."-Hunter S. Thompson
It's interesting to see that, yeah, the cultural differences that Japanese players and Western players might possess might not be as far apart as people think. When a game doesn't live up to expectations in many categories, all cultures seem to have an emotional, visceral reaction.
I suppose next week we'll start to get professional reviews from both sides which will be nice for those on the fence.
At which time the fans of the game will call all negative reviewers not part of the niche audience.
Comments
How are the reviews not honest? (I have yet to have someone answer this question) If someone likes it then they will say they like it.... if they don't then they will say they don't. Opinions can't be taken as fact from either side.
So they censor themselves and don't give you a completely honest review?
They don't let their emotions run rampant in a hissy fit as much as non-professional reviewers, who do reviews for their job day in and day out.
Anyway, the discussion is futile, both have their merits, professional and common gamer reviews, as long as you can see them clearly for what they are.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
My logic states that an average gamer would give negative review to a particular game for variety of reasons which is not always based on in game experince. I have seen it happening many times before. Players giving bad reviews to other games just to make their favorite look good.
Not saying every gamer does that but to say an average gamer is more honest than professional reviewer is not entirely true.
Sure, here you go: http://www.ffxivcore.com/topic/484-exclusive-interview-with-ffxiv-producer-hiromichi-tanaka/
Exactly how much more casual will FF XIV be than FF XI? Is FF XIV designed to try to appeal to a new casual crowd and leave the hardcore group players in FF XI? Is FF XIV trying to attract both at the same time and try to become the first historical game that successfully combines hardcore and casual aspects?
The first question about the casual aspect. We will have a casual aspect, but we're not going to only target the casual players. Its really a users choice. We will be able to provide a variety of aspects to the game that casual players will enjoy but the hardcore players will enjoy it as well. And also for FFXI and FFXIV we aim to support both players, although FFXIV is using a new graphics engine, so we're providing current FFXI players with an option if they want to play FFXI of course that is fine, but they're also very welcome to play FFXIV.
Hiromichi Tanaka also says that it would be very nice if the players of other Final Fantasy games who never played FFXI would play FFXIV. So that is one of the goals.
So basically they're aiming at the Final Fantasy fans who haven't played MMO's due to having a casual aspect of FFXIV, but also at the same time giving the hardcore MMO players something to enjoy as well.
There you have it. A lot of thought went into the specific niche they wanted to target. Not just casual. Not just hardcore. But Final Fantasy fans who couldn't get into MMOs before, with enough there that a hardcore player could enjoy the game.
Another interesting one here: http://www.ffxivcore.com/topic/8749-hiromichi-tanaka-french-video-interview-translated/
We do not try to compete with World of Warcraft. We really want to convince the fans of Final Fantasy who have never played an MMORPG. But also show to casual gamers that MMORPGs are very exciting to play. We really hope that Final Fantasy XIV will be a good first experience for those new players.
The lack of resemblance to World of Warcraft in FFXIV? Highly deliberate.
^ I myself would love to see all the links of the target audience. as far as i know there is alot out there on how they want their bite in the casual market. thus wanting the game more casual freindly.
You didn't answer the question...
Irrelevant question,1000 people can and do say World of Warcraft is bad , but 5 professional reviewing teams can tell me it's a solid good game. And they would be correct, despite my dislike for the game.
I would also say 1000 players who barely touched the game and have no reviewing or gaming talent what so ever, are hardly credible compared to 5 trained professional reviewers.
A very valid point. However the question should not be the honesty of the reviewer but should be is the reviewer being objective. My point has been that people let their emotions and popular opinion determine way to much of how they think. I believe this is a product of our current mindset in this "Post-Modern" society; that believes that popular opinion is truth no matter how off base it is. Truth is not subjective to the whims of popular opinion, but instead is the object of the facts.
That being said I just want to reiterate that this game has not been out long enough for us to have decent reviews. In the end time is the only reviewer that matters. If this game is great than a good number of people will still be playing it two years from now; however if this game proves to be terrible then we will see a sharp decline in its player-base over time. The only real way of measuring anything is time, because only time has the ability to judge without prejudice.
"Never pay more than 20 bucks for a computer game."-Guybrush Threepwood
"I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me."-Hunter S. Thompson
Just as an additional note:
I'm sorry I don't have time to translate each post on that original link, but man, as I read them, some are unbelievably harsh >_<
You can find one english post among all of them and even that one seems fair lol.
I'll quote a few more:
"The game is full of BOTS always spamming"
"Even as a FF fan, I was correct in my choice to stay away from this game"
Talking about the gift you get with the CE - "The item I got was garbage made in China"
"I just got the game 2 days ago, and I have no idea what I should be doing. Even if I try to go out and level all the mobs are taken by other people. I don't want to level a class that I have no interest in leveling because of the XP fatigue. Although I am a CE customer, I doubt I will continue to subscribe to this game. I can't see this game being fun"
"I've spent over 10000yen (100$) on this game, but basically even a free game is better, the UI is bad, the quests aren't fun”
There are so many like this, it is crazy! Also, don't get mad at me for just translating hehe - I was as surprised as you will be when I read these...
Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.
If the game didn't draw them in and they dislike it no matter what the motive, then a negative review is an honest review. It wasn't good enough 'for them' and the review is their opinion.
What is not honest is a professional censoring themselves in order to stay 'professional' you don't get 100% of their opinion and experience.
So its set in stone.
"The first question about the casual aspect. We will have a casual aspect, but we're not going to only target the casual players."
they are clearly wanting a pie in the casual market .
"Its really a users choice. We will be able to provide a variety of aspects to the game that casual players will enjoy but the hardcore players will enjoy it as well."
They want to have the game open to both causal players and hardcore players.
"And also for FFXI and FFXIV we aim to support both players, although FFXIV is using a new graphics engine, so we're providing current FFXI players with an option if they want to play FFXI of course that is fine, but they're also very welcome to play FFXIV."
They are also targeting players of their other mmopg ff11 and people who have played final fantasy games.
so they want to target the casual players, the hardcore and the fans of final fantasy.
wheres the niche here?
I agree with this... i'm an FFXI vet and I won't touch this game.
Its because buzz/weasel words make everything better. Advertising/Marketing/PR people know that by labeling things in such a way, a negative can suddenly appear to be a positive. 'Niche' is used in MMIO's as a qualifier for 'very small amounts of people' by fans/PR to make the fact that a game isn't widely liked by players sound better by making it instead sound like it was 'aimed' at a specific type of player.
FFXIV was a game that was designed to be enjoyed by casuals and hardcores alike, according to the various dev interviews, and wasn't designed for any specific 'niche' as a lot of the die hards will try to convince you of. They also stated that the game was to be more westernized than FFXI was, to appeal more to US/EU players. So basically we are being told by fans of the game that it's a game aimed at a niche while the devs themselves talk about how the game is being made to appeal to a bigger audience and get more people involved in the game (the whole design of the game was to make it supposedly more friendly to a larger audience than FFXI appealed to).
So which is it?
Who are we supposed to listen to? The fans or the devs themselves?
A niche is discovered over time and not something that is intentionally aimed for. When something aims toward a specific niche, it usually always ends up being a disaster.
There are 3 types of people in the world.
1.) Those who make things happen
2.) Those who watch things happen
3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
If they do their job right, then you'll get a more honest, more indepth and objective review that exposes the goods and the bads of a game than you are able to get from most of the common gamers. It's their job. They've been doing it for years and years.
What you're basically saying is that their job is meaningless of all the movie reviewers, game reviewers, professional reporters, journalists, since everyone can do it and even better than they can.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
You really need to understand what being 'honest means'. You are contradicting yourself. Honest review is something which is not effected by motives like bias and prejudice. If a professional reviewer is being paid he is being dishonest but an average gamer giving negative reviews is honest even if he suffers from bias? seriously you are not making any sense.
I fall into all of their stated niches and am finding the game to be riddled with, what in my view, are flaws that will cause me to not purchase the game. I also think that there are a lot of other people that fall into their stated niche that feel the same way.
What that little bit of info says is they made a game to appeal to players new to the genre as well as established players of the genre. So basically 'Anyone who wants to play'. That doesn't sound like a niche to me.
There are 3 types of people in the world.
1.) Those who make things happen
2.) Those who watch things happen
3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
Does anyone have more links to some Japanese sites that have customer reviews?
Where am I contradicting myself?
Bias and prejudice is a factor when it comes to an individuals opinion of something, it determines how they experience whatever it is they are doing.
" If a professional reviewer is being paid he is being dishonest" Correct!
"Seriously you are not making any sense" and "You are contradicting yourself." from your earlier statements.
"Niche" means much more than that, actually. It's a word that you use when you understand that it's very difficult to entice players away from an existing MMORPG, because that's where all their friends at, where they have invested hundreds of hours leveling up a character, ect. Consequently, what you do is try to entice players who haven't tried or are alienated from the existing MMORPGs, in other word, you try to indentify unclaimed niches.
Final Fantasy XIV is coming at the game post-Warhammer Online, post-Age of Conan, post Lord of the Rings Online. Many games which have tried to copy World of Warcraft, and didn't manage to wrest way more than the average EverQuest clone. Consequently, any developer worth their salt knows that copying World of Warcraft just doesn't work.
Good question, I wonder that myself sometimes.
Nothing to do with the rest of your message... but if I had to choose between the two, I tihnk I'd choose the guys who are making the game as opposed to some random players' opinions, at least if the topic is, "when you were creating this game, who did you intend to have play it?"
Shoot, even when I provide evidence that they have, in fact, deliberately aimed for a niche, you don't believe they deliberately aim for a niche? Granted, you're right that what they end up with may be different than what they aimed for. MMORPG communities tend to grow organically in expected directions. However, they're still trying to capture a specific audience.
"Anyone who wants to play" is very much a niche... once you start to break down the factors of why they'd want to play. If you're a game developer, these factors are something you are paid to consider and try to understand, constantly, on every level of the game.
So what you're basically saying is 'screw all the professional reviewers, reporters, journalists because everyone else can do it better'.
Hmm, interesting viewpoint. I guess in that viewpoint everyone who gives their opinion or reports on something and is being paid for it because it's his/her job can't be trusted.
Well, i think we should just scrap all the journalism studies or the whole profession of journalism or writing columns or reviews in magazines, tv, sites, wherever, since it's all worthless anyway. Good plan
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
If a professional reviewer is being paid his ulterior motive is money so he is dis honest. If any average player is giving negative review to a game out of bias than his ulterior motive is prejudice and he is also dishonest. How hard is it to understand? motive is a motive doesn't matter what it is. When your review is effected by such factors you are not being honest. Simples.
So no way an average gamer is more honest than a professional reviewer.
90% of haters are begging for love. 10% just want a little attention -- Paulo Coelho
Probably not since the OP was being selective and found the one that fit their view of the game the most. I would take a look myself, but I must admit I don't have the patience to wade through poorly translated Japanese by Google.
"Never pay more than 20 bucks for a computer game."-Guybrush Threepwood
"I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me."-Hunter S. Thompson
It's interesting to see that, yeah, the cultural differences that Japanese players and Western players might possess might not be as far apart as people think. When a game doesn't live up to expectations in many categories, all cultures seem to have an emotional, visceral reaction.
I suppose next week we'll start to get professional reviews from both sides which will be nice for those on the fence.
At which time the fans of the game will call all negative reviewers not part of the niche audience.