Build a game around player interaction, and then make player interaction the most tedious, hard to accomplish thing in the game is the real irony here.
Heso o kamedomo oyobanu -- Don't cut off your nose to spite your face.
I think the crafting system makes things more realistic. For example, take a simple cart in real life, you have pretty much a box on an axle. Now it's a known fact that people had carts without wheels years and years before the wheel was invented, they just dragged them on the ground. After the wheel and axle were invented people put thier old carts onto the wheel. The wheel is a part of a cart today, but it used to not be that way.
Originally posted by Gravarg I think the crafting system makes things more realistic. For example, take a simple cart in real life, you have pretty much a box on an axle. Now it's a known fact that people had carts without wheels years and years before the wheel was invented, they just dragged them on the ground. After the wheel and axle were invented people put thier old carts onto the wheel. The wheel is a part of a cart today, but it used to not be that way.
Lets not use real life analogies here please ok? for example
There is NO excuse for requiring IRON NAILS and IRON SPIKES for rank 5 synths. In the real world, someone desperate for a saw would use any nails available to hammer the saw handle together. They wouldn't just not have a saw because they had no iron nails.
Heso o kamedomo oyobanu -- Don't cut off your nose to spite your face.
I imagine what they were thinking is, "now, that is one hardcore Ash Fishing Rod."
Once it's created, it pretty much stays in the game forever. The harder it was to put together, the more genuinely valuable it is.
That might be true if it wasn't the very first upgrade from the weathered fishing rod. It's rank 7 with a replacement at rank 12. By the time you're on grade 3 pools you won't catch shit with it. There's a difference between challenging and tedious mind&$*#. Most of the crafting recipes fall into the second category. SE really needs to step out of their retard bubble. Things like this are not fun for anyone. A rank 7 weapon that is craftable by a rank 11 carpenter, yet it requires materials from a rank 21 armourer. Seriously... how does that make sense?
All I have to say is reamber SE is not making the game SQUARE ENIX CO., LTD is the maker...
The picture below is for a rank 7 ash fishing rod. It is a level 11 craft for carpenters. Random or carefully though out process?
I was called out before for bringing this point up (apparently i was making it up) and when i posted some links to show how ridiculous and random the crafting process is in game. The person calling me out never replied back.
So i would like to get feedback from you guys. This is just one of the many examples like lvling Weaver to lvl 21 to make one part for lvl 7 black smith hammer which needs only 1 lvl Blacksmith to put together or killing a lvl 50 raptor to make a lvl 15 belt, list is endless. Everything is so random and it looks as if devs hardly paid any attention while linking various recepies. If you are going to make something for rank 1 or 7 shouldn't the rest of the crafting skills in same level range? even if not exactly the same how about keeping them 2 or 3 lvl above max?
Diagram is not made by me however this is for those who enjoy crafting. I would like to know what you guys think about it.
Probably pretty accurate to what t really does take to make a fishing rod.
The Stranger: It's what people know about themselves inside that makes 'em afraid.
If it was lvl 42 yew fishing rod i would agree but not with lvl 7 fishing rod which is a starter tool. Considering that you upgrade to lvl 12 Willow fishing road in few levels. Fishing is ridiculously fast to level. So doesn't make sense why to spend weeks in making something you out level in a day or two?
Things like this should be gradually build up to ease the beginner crafters and not just 'BAM!! in your face from the very beginning. Moreover, my main point is not the process itself but the imbalance in levels of various crafting skills for making this item.
This is even more major pain in ass for those who plan to level everything on one character.
I think that's precisely their intention.
Since there are no profession barriers of the usual kind(like being restricted to 2-3 professions), they're using this system, instead.
Some folks will praise it for its "depth". Others will pretty much consider it an overly complicated ball of goo which offers little to no payoff.
Months from now, all the recipes will be on a website somewhere, and some guide will come along telling you what skills to do in what order to maximize resource and time proficiency. People will get their skills in about 1/10 of the time that people do now.
At which point, current player's heads will turn purple and possibly burst...
I think the problem here is that a majority of the people have no clue what in the world they are doing; they underestimate the learning curve of the game. There is a tremendous learning curve to this game and it extends to crafting. If you don't understand the effect gear has on crafting, you'll never craft anything successfully; If you don't understand the orb system, you will never craft anything successfully; if you don't understand that crafting with a buff from said crafting guild helps, well you can still craft successfully but that helps tremendously. Crafting takes skill and understanding, and once you are able to achieve that you should have no problems crafting anything, I certainly haven't.
This is a joke right? Learning curve of crafting is hard? Yellow, Red, Blinking=lower chance of success. Solid white=best chance. Red usually raised the quality, and you have your 3options+options for ranking in crafting.
Crafting with a buff, wow so hard. Go to area(be it camp or guild house) pay money. Craft.
There is no understanding. Its a system meant to counter automation. No one has a problem making and item successfully be it normal or HQ if they ranked to 10+ in multiple crafting professions.
This issue has been purely stated on the borked levels of the system that require level 21 items to craft a level 7 item. That doesn't make sense for anyone. If it does for you, please explain it to the rest of us how it makes sense as we would love to hear some insight.
I'll take a shot at it.
I think SE expects you to "trade" for that level 21 item, not go out and craft or farm it yourself. They are trying to build an economic engine that's full of player interdependency hence they make it difficult for a player to do it all themselves.
They also want to "integrate" the player base, meaning there might be less stratification between veteran players vs new ones, as both groups will benefit from trading with each other, regardless of level since few people will have the time to be totally self-sufficent.
From everything I've observed (from the outside) it seems that SE is trying very hard to force people to interact with each other at several layers, crafting, combat, questing, and most players today aren't really up for that.
Thank you! I was reading through the thread hoping someone else would say it. Just because they let you be every class doesn't mean they expect you to be everyone. Pick about 2 or 3 that go well together (miner and blacksmith for example) and trade with others for what you need. Or, even just go miner and sell all your ore to buy the finished product what ever works for you.
The picture below is for a rank 7 ash fishing rod. It is a level 11 craft for carpenters. Random or carefully though out process?
I was called out before for bringing this point up (apparently i was making it up) and when i posted some links to show how ridiculous and random the crafting process is in game. The person calling me out never replied back.
So i would like to get feedback from you guys. This is just one of the many examples like lvling Weaver to lvl 21 to make one part for lvl 7 black smith hammer which needs only 1 lvl Blacksmith to put together or killing a lvl 50 raptor to make a lvl 15 belt, list is endless. Everything is so random and it looks as if devs hardly paid any attention while linking various recepies. If you are going to make something for rank 1 or 7 shouldn't the rest of the crafting skills in same level range? even if not exactly the same how about keeping them 2 or 3 lvl above max?
Diagram is not made by me however this is for those who enjoy crafting. I would like to know what you guys think about it.
LOL first off the ash fishing rod requires the most items to make out of any carpenter item that has been made by most so far. There are a few others that also require six components to make. This is ONE example ha there are tons of very easy things to make with one or two items.
Also, just because some of the item in the recipe need to be created themselves beforehand means nothing. I am a botanist and carpenter and the crafting is really very easy and even easier with the help of Eorzeapedia.com. With the carpenters NPC that sells some bacis carpenter goods, my gatherings from botany, and my carpenter skills it makes crafting very useful and easy to do. Not to mention you can trade with other players that have those crafts?! Duh! You do not need to do everything yourself, but can if you wish.
So I am sorry you think that is too many materials and the game is too difficult for you. Also for the fact that you use an example that does not portray the majority instead it shows the minority. That makes a lot of sense ha.
Never said the game was perfect, mechanically sound, or any of that jazz so lets not go there.
Originally posted by Waldoe Originally posted by Hachiro The picture below is for a rank 7 ash fishing rod. It is a level 11 craft for carpenters. Random or carefully though out process? I was called out before for bringing this point up (apparently i was making it up) and when i posted some links to show how ridiculous and random the crafting process is in game. The person calling me out never replied back. So i would like to get feedback from you guys. This is just one of the many examples like lvling Weaver to lvl 21 to make one part for lvl 7 black smith hammer which needs only 1 lvl Blacksmith to put together or killing a lvl 50 raptor to make a lvl 15 belt, list is endless. Everything is so random and it looks as if devs hardly paid any attention while linking various recepies. If you are going to make something for rank 1 or 7 shouldn't the rest of the crafting skills in same level range? even if not exactly the same how about keeping them 2 or 3 lvl above max?
Diagram is not made by me however this is for those who enjoy crafting. I would like to know what you guys think about it.
LOL first off the ash fishing rod requires the most items to make out of any carpenter item that has been made by most so far. There are a few others that also require six components to make. This is ONE example ha there are tons of very easy things to make with one or two items.
Also, just because some of the item in the recipe need to be created themselves beforehand means nothing. I am a botanist and carpenter and the crafting is really very easy and even easier with the help of Eorzeapedia.com. With the carpenters NPC that sells some bacis carpenter goods, my gatherings from botany, and my carpenter skills it makes crafting very useful and easy to do. Not to mention you can trade with other players that have those crafts?! Duh! You do not need to do everything yourself, but can if you wish.
So I am sorry you think that is too many materials and the game is too difficult for you. Also for the fact that you use an example that does not portray the majority instead it shows the minority. That makes a lot of sense ha.
Never said the game was perfect, mechanically sound, or any of that jazz so lets not go there.
You completely missed the point if you think i am complaining about this game being too hard. Also again, point here is not the amount of materials required but the imbalance in crafting skills to make something as low lvl as rank 7.
How about you read everything properly next time? there is also a topic about 'reading comprehension' on this website. You might want to check that one out too.
Heso o kamedomo oyobanu -- Don't cut off your nose to spite your face.
I think the crafting system makes things more realistic. For example, take a simple cart in real life, you have pretty much a box on an axle. Now it's a known fact that people had carts without wheels years and years before the wheel was invented, they just dragged them on the ground. After the wheel and axle were invented people put thier old carts onto the wheel. The wheel is a part of a cart today, but it used to not be that way.
Lets not use real life analogies here please ok? for example
There is NO excuse for requiring IRON NAILS and IRON SPIKES for rank 5 synths. In the real world, someone desperate for a saw would use any nails available to hammer the saw handle together. They wouldn't just not have a saw because they had no iron nails.
agree.
Requiring an exact ingredient is a copout in this system. If you REALLY want a robust crafting system, you should be able to craft using, in your example, ANY kind of nail, but the quality of that nail should effect the end quality of the product.
SWG did this, where you could have the same ore, it had different properties and qualities based on where it was harvested. So a crafter that knew his stuff knew what the perfect combination of ore properties would create the perfect blaster barrel for a particular attack bonus, for example.
There are ways to create a complex, engaging crafting system. This isn't one of them. It's like they were intentionally trying to inject tedium into their game, and rewarding it with... an item with the same properties as anyone elses.
Crafting in XIV can best be described in the review:
The interface, normally sluggish anyway, is particularly poky when crafting and gathering, and the animations are excruciatingly long. And be sure to have a pad of paper close by or a Web browser window at the ready because the game does not store the recipes you learn.
You're not supposed to be self-sufficient, that is why you are wasting 30 minutes to craft a simple thing - you want to do it solo.
Oh GOD, I love this point. 30 minutes means, lets say three people put together one item, each one takes ten minute to do it. Who gets the profits of a crapy ash fishing pole.... ohhh there is no profit... so what do the other two people get for helping you besides.... thanks for the both of you taking ten minute of your life and your mats, on me for absoulutly nothing for every single ash pole I have to craft to get skills, and here, take this in return... ALL MY MONEY, OR A THANKS if your lucky.
I think the problem here is that a majority of the people have no clue what in the world they are doing; they underestimate the learning curve of the game. There is a tremendous learning curve to this game and it extends to crafting. If you don't understand the effect gear has on crafting, you'll never craft anything successfully; If you don't understand the orb system, you will never craft anything successfully; if you don't understand that crafting with a buff from said crafting guild helps, well you can still craft successfully but that helps tremendously. Crafting takes skill and understanding, and once you are able to achieve that you should have no problems crafting anything, I certainly haven't.
This is a joke right? Learning curve of crafting is hard? Yellow, Red, Blinking=lower chance of success. Solid white=best chance. Red usually raised the quality, and you have your 3options+options for ranking in crafting.
Crafting with a buff, wow so hard. Go to area(be it camp or guild house) pay money. Craft.
There is no understanding. Its a system meant to counter automation. No one has a problem making and item successfully be it normal or HQ if they ranked to 10+ in multiple crafting professions.
This issue has been purely stated on the borked levels of the system that require level 21 items to craft a level 7 item. That doesn't make sense for anyone. If it does for you, please explain it to the rest of us how it makes sense as we would love to hear some insight.
I'll take a shot at it.
I think SE expects you to "trade" for that level 21 item, not go out and craft or farm it yourself. They are trying to build an economic engine that's full of player interdependency hence they make it difficult for a player to do it all themselves.
They also want to "integrate" the player base, meaning there might be less stratification between veteran players vs new ones, as both groups will benefit from trading with each other, regardless of level since few people will have the time to be totally self-sufficent.
From everything I've observed (from the outside) it seems that SE is trying very hard to force people to interact with each other at several layers, crafting, combat, questing, and most players today aren't really up for that.
Thank you! I was reading through the thread hoping someone else would say it. Just because they let you be every class doesn't mean they expect you to be everyone. Pick about 2 or 3 that go well together (miner and blacksmith for example) and trade with others for what you need. Or, even just go miner and sell all your ore to buy the finished product what ever works for you.
Then what's the point in making a system "unrestricted"? So you can go back and finish the other skill later, I suppose?
Also, I would think that if they really wanted interdependancy, they'd have focused much harder on means to get products from player to player. As in an AH with player vendor inventories. Something SWG did 7 years ago.
Not saying you're wrong. Just sayin' that they missed the mark by a good spread if that was their intent.
Another really important point I haven't seen made yet is this:
The armoury system - the idea that players will be leveling up multiple jobs by switching their gear.
So it's actually entirely possible that somebody might be a level 7 fisherman who has a level 11 carpenter, lvl 11 blacksmith, and a level 21 armorer on the side. There's nothing unusual about that at all, because your fisherman rank has absolutely nothing to do with your other job ranks.
Granted, far more likely than that is you'll buy the part of even finished fishing pole off somebody else. That's the only way you can make a player economy really work: by introducing a genuine necessity to deal with other players.
Another really important point I haven't seen made yet is this:
The armoury system - the idea that players will be leveling up multiple jobs by switching their gear.
So it's actually entirely possible that somebody might be a level 7 fisherman who has a level 11 carpenter, lvl 11 backsmith, and a level 21 armorer on the side. This isn't mere a vertical progression system, there's both physical level and skill rank.
Granted, far more likely than that is you'll buy the part of even finished fishing pole off somebody else. That's the only way you can make a player economy really work: by introducing a genuine necessity to deal with other players.
Another reason why this game is too frustrating to play. It's just not any fun. Where is the fun? What makes this total convolution any fun to play or craft.
I guess I considered crafting a strong point, but I didn't realize how messed up it really is. I spent a great deal of time crafting in the game without any results. The payoff is just not there.
I don't even have a problem with grinding for a fishing pole. I did that in wow with the Kal'uak fishing pole. The quests were tolerable, sometimes they were even fun. I actually spent a lot of zen time fishing in WOW. I don't play wow anymore, but it's still a good game.
This game is work diguised as a game. It's bizzare.
Another really important point I haven't seen made yet is this:
The armoury system - the idea that players will be leveling up multiple jobs by switching their gear.
So it's actually entirely possible that somebody might be a level 7 fisherman who has a level 11 carpenter, lvl 11 backsmith, and a level 21 armorer on the side. This isn't mere a vertical progression system, there's both physical level and skill rank.
Granted, far more likely than that is you'll buy the part of even finished fishing pole off somebody else. That's the only way you can make a player economy really work: by introducing a genuine necessity to deal with other players.
Another reason why this game is too frustrating to play. It's just not any fun. Where is the fun? What makes this total convolution any fun to play or craft.
I guess I considered crafting a strong point, but I didn't realize how messed up it really is. I spent a great deal of time crafting in the game without any results. The payoff is just not there.
I don't even have a problem with grinding for a fishing pole. I did that in wow with the Kal'uak fishing pole. The quests were tolerable, sometimes they were even fun. I actually spent a lot of zen time fishing in WOW. I don't play wow anymore, but it's still a good game.
This game is work diguised as a game. It's bizzare.
Sort of rude to quote my message when what you had to write had absolutely no connection to it. Is the implication that, if I supported a game, it must be no fun at all?
The greater bulk of what you wrote here evoked a chuckle. Not at you, but rather at the state of MMORPGs in general. "This game is work disguised as a game" would seem to be a critique leveled at all MMORPGs from time immortal.
I've sort of missed it, really. These more casual offerings these days may have been okay games, but they were rather poor MMORPGs. The sense of scale was lacking. The reduced effort made most pursuits seem significantly less worthwhile.
'owe no something complex in a game and takes time to level up, ahhhhhhhhh, run and moan on a forum quick!!!!
Please read the thread before you say we are nothing but moaning and groaning because the system is about as complex as building something from Legos which I did since I was three(Not saying a three year old can do this because they can't, but it isn't complex to say the least) Then
@all the people who mentioned we aren't supposed to do it all ourselves.
I'm perfectly fine with that. But as been stated, we don't have to tools to allow it to be utilized currently in any efficient or desirable fashion. For those that haven't, go into 5-6market wards and spend two hours to find nothing. Get back to me. Then start shouting LF item, I did that about 100 times and zero response. Hell I even contacted someone who I knew made them and they weren't interested because they didn't have all the mats made and was a waste of time to them since they were ranked up.
This current system is like going to a Flea Market. But imagine that flea Market is lined with rows of cars with the trunk towards you. Now if you want to see what that person has, you have to go up and ask him, at that point he opens his trunk and shows you. If you don't like what you see, well unto the next one.
Now these are long rows of cars, and once your done with another, you can move to the next row(another ward) and you might just find something you were looking for, but chances are if each person had a table out and you could scan as you walked, you would not be wasting your time going up to everyone and asking what they got and you'd find what you want pretty quickly.
Now obviously, the majority of players aren't in a dedicated superhardcore guild. Because if we were, we wouldn't be on the forums, as we would all be working together(Reason why I imagine there are level 25+crafters out there as of Sunday, I saw a 25goldsmith sunday morning, so he probably is 30 by now at least) So for this game being tailored to the "casual" person, the functionality isn't their even for some people that are near the hardcore spectrum but aren't in a 100% structured setting to participate.
I'd almost buy this argument except for the fact that the majority of people will only have one character. I don't need the low level items to play, which is obvious since no one has the level 6 Axe or the level 7 fishing pole @level 6 or 7, and usually not before level 12. So in that regards the market for these items will be so absurdly small since currently: they are not needed, and many people will just pass them up and save for a higher level item.
You're not supposed to be self-sufficient, that is why you are wasting 30 minutes to craft a simple thing - you want to do it solo.
Oh GOD, I love this point. 30 minutes means, lets say three people put together one item, each one takes ten minute to do it. Who gets the profits of a crapy ash fishing pole.... ohhh there is no profit... so what do the other two people get for helping you besides.... thanks for the both of you taking ten minute of your life and your mats, on me for absoulutly nothing for every single ash pole I have to craft to get skills, and here, take this in return... ALL MY MONEY, OR A THANKS if your lucky.
Can someone please translate this gibberish for me?
I can't believe I'm going to defend something about this game, but what's wrong with buying materials off other players that you can't make yourself? I don't get it. If there's no profit in making something, don't make it. If you need it for yourself, then be prepared to pay for it if you need mats. I just don't understand the problem here.
Sure, it's ridiculous to expect any one person to put together all those mats by themselves, but beyond that what's the problem? I know there are other problems with crafting, but let's stick to this specific issue as that is the point of the OP.
edit: if the complaint is that it's hard to find mats on other players because of the trade system, that's again, another issue, and your complaint should be that there's no AH or proper trade system to quickly find specific items and buy them.
Another really important point I haven't seen made yet is this:
The armoury system - the idea that players will be leveling up multiple jobs by switching their gear.
So it's actually entirely possible that somebody might be a level 7 fisherman who has a level 11 carpenter, lvl 11 backsmith, and a level 21 armorer on the side. This isn't mere a vertical progression system, there's both physical level and skill rank.
Granted, far more likely than that is you'll buy the part of even finished fishing pole off somebody else. That's the only way you can make a player economy really work: by introducing a genuine necessity to deal with other players.
Another reason why this game is too frustrating to play. It's just not any fun. Where is the fun? What makes this total convolution any fun to play or craft.
I guess I considered crafting a strong point, but I didn't realize how messed up it really is. I spent a great deal of time crafting in the game without any results. The payoff is just not there.
I don't even have a problem with grinding for a fishing pole. I did that in wow with the Kal'uak fishing pole. The quests were tolerable, sometimes they were even fun. I actually spent a lot of zen time fishing in WOW. I don't play wow anymore, but it's still a good game.
This game is work diguised as a game. It's bizzare.
Sort of rude to quote my message when what you had to write had absolutely no connection to it. Is the implication that, if I supported a game, it must be no fun at all?
The greater bulk of what you wrote here evoked a chuckle. Not at you, but rather at the state of MMORPGs in general. "This game is work disguised as a game" would seem to be a critique leveled at all MMORPGs from time immortal.
I've sort of missed it, really. These more casual offerings these days may have been okay games, but they were rather poor MMORPGs. The sense of scale was lacking. The reduced effort made most pursuits seem significantly less worthwhile.
Didn't mean to offend you, but my post was directly related to your comments. Please don't take it personally, I respect your ardor for the game and your individuality.
On the other hand, I do love MMOs. I'm passionate about them, as you are yourself. That's why I'm on this forum.
Granted, far more likely than that is you'll buy the part of even finished fishing pole off somebody else. That's the only way you can make a player economy really work: by introducing a genuine necessity to deal with other players.
I'm going to use this part. You can have a player economy work without interdependency. SWG accomplished this greatly before the CU. People hard to buy their equipment and goods from crafters. Then it broke, and you had to go buy more. Those who did not craft sold raw materials, plot placements or whatnot to crafters. It was a solid system that worked quite well. Heck they have a bazaar setup so you don't have to be present(like vendors) so its technically half-way to a working system if they just fix it properly.
Didn't mean to offend you, but my post was directly related to your comments. Please don't take it personally, I respect your ardor for the game and your individuality.
On the other hand, I do love MMOs. I'm passionate about them, as you are yourself. That's why I'm on this forum.
I did edit in (and subsequently removed) something that said:
You may have played games that claimed to be MMORPGs before but, to look at the bulk of this message, it's like Final Fantasy XIV was your first authentic MMORPG experience.
But in retrospect,. "authentic" isn't the right word to use. "Old school," that may be more appropriate.
Final Fantasy XIV is an MMORPG of old school sensibilities, even as it attempts to accomidate the casuals with stuff like limiting guildleve access and the fatigue system. It may, comparatively, feel like work for you. But that's a large reason why old school players enjoy it so much: there's a sense of substance here that you can't find in games that require less effort.
I've been looking for a fishing pole upgrade since the early release, and only ever found 1 ash rod with a ton of time spent in the wards. It was so ridiculously priced i couldnt touch it
Please read the thread before you say we are nothing but moaning and groaning because the system is about as complex as building something from Legos which I did since I was three(Not saying a three year old can do this because they can't, but it isn't complex to say the least) Then
@all the people who mentioned we aren't supposed to do it all ourselves.
I'm perfectly fine with that. But as been stated, we don't have to tools to allow it to be utilized currently in any efficient or desirable fashion. For those that haven't, go into 5-6market wards and spend two hours to find nothing. Get back to me. Then start shouting LF item, I did that about 100 times and zero response. Hell I even contacted someone who I knew made them and they weren't interested because they didn't have all the mats made and was a waste of time to them since they were ranked up.
This current system is like going to a Flea Market. But imagine that flea Market is lined with rows of cars with the trunk towards you. Now if you want to see what that person has, you have to go up and ask him, at that point he opens his trunk and shows you. If you don't like what you see, well unto the next one.
Now these are long rows of cars, and once your done with another, you can move to the next row(another ward) and you might just find something you were looking for, but chances are if each person had a table out and you could scan as you walked, you would not be wasting your time going up to everyone and asking what they got and you'd find what you want pretty quickly.
Now obviously, the majority of players aren't in a dedicated superhardcore guild. Because if we were, we wouldn't be on the forums, as we would all be working together(Reason why I imagine there are level 25+crafters out there as of Sunday, I saw a 25goldsmith sunday morning, so he probably is 30 by now at least) So for this game being tailored to the "casual" person, the functionality isn't their even for some people that are near the hardcore spectrum but aren't in a 100% structured setting to participate.
I'd almost buy this argument except for the fact that the majority of people will only have one character. I don't need the low level items to play, which is obvious since no one has the level 6 Axe or the level 7 fishing pole @level 6 or 7, and usually not before level 12. So in that regards the market for these items will be so absurdly small since currently: they are not needed, and many people will just pass them up and save for a higher level item.
Methinx SE completely missed the point on complex crafting systems. It's not about the system itself, it's about the end product. People like to dabble for days and days, trying to create the absolute best item they can make. It's interesting, experimenting with different combinations of ingredients and seeing what the results are. It's even better where you can have different outcomes that are great in their own way.
Spending days and days trying to get the exact and only components it takes to create an item that is exactly the same as everyone elses? That's just the worst of both worlds.
Comments
Like someone mentioned earlier.....
Build a game around player interaction, and then make player interaction the most tedious, hard to accomplish thing in the game is the real irony here.
Heso o kamedomo oyobanu -- Don't cut off your nose to spite your face.
I think the crafting system makes things more realistic. For example, take a simple cart in real life, you have pretty much a box on an axle. Now it's a known fact that people had carts without wheels years and years before the wheel was invented, they just dragged them on the ground. After the wheel and axle were invented people put thier old carts onto the wheel. The wheel is a part of a cart today, but it used to not be that way.
Lets not use real life analogies here please ok? for example
There is NO excuse for requiring IRON NAILS and IRON SPIKES for rank 5 synths. In the real world, someone desperate for a saw would use any nails available to hammer the saw handle together. They wouldn't just not have a saw because they had no iron nails.
Heso o kamedomo oyobanu -- Don't cut off your nose to spite your face.
All I have to say is reamber SE is not making the game SQUARE ENIX CO., LTD is the maker...
Probably pretty accurate to what t really does take to make a fishing rod.
The Stranger: It's what people know about themselves inside that makes 'em afraid.
You're not supposed to be self-sufficient, that is why you are wasting 30 minutes to craft a simple thing - you want to do it solo.
I think that's precisely their intention.
Since there are no profession barriers of the usual kind(like being restricted to 2-3 professions), they're using this system, instead.
Some folks will praise it for its "depth". Others will pretty much consider it an overly complicated ball of goo which offers little to no payoff.
Months from now, all the recipes will be on a website somewhere, and some guide will come along telling you what skills to do in what order to maximize resource and time proficiency. People will get their skills in about 1/10 of the time that people do now.
At which point, current player's heads will turn purple and possibly burst...
Thank you! I was reading through the thread hoping someone else would say it. Just because they let you be every class doesn't mean they expect you to be everyone. Pick about 2 or 3 that go well together (miner and blacksmith for example) and trade with others for what you need. Or, even just go miner and sell all your ore to buy the finished product what ever works for you.
LOL first off the ash fishing rod requires the most items to make out of any carpenter item that has been made by most so far. There are a few others that also require six components to make. This is ONE example ha there are tons of very easy things to make with one or two items.
Also, just because some of the item in the recipe need to be created themselves beforehand means nothing. I am a botanist and carpenter and the crafting is really very easy and even easier with the help of Eorzeapedia.com. With the carpenters NPC that sells some bacis carpenter goods, my gatherings from botany, and my carpenter skills it makes crafting very useful and easy to do. Not to mention you can trade with other players that have those crafts?! Duh! You do not need to do everything yourself, but can if you wish.
So I am sorry you think that is too many materials and the game is too difficult for you. Also for the fact that you use an example that does not portray the majority instead it shows the minority. That makes a lot of sense ha.
Never said the game was perfect, mechanically sound, or any of that jazz so lets not go there.
Also, just because some of the item in the recipe need to be created themselves beforehand means nothing. I am a botanist and carpenter and the crafting is really very easy and even easier with the help of Eorzeapedia.com. With the carpenters NPC that sells some bacis carpenter goods, my gatherings from botany, and my carpenter skills it makes crafting very useful and easy to do. Not to mention you can trade with other players that have those crafts?! Duh! You do not need to do everything yourself, but can if you wish.
So I am sorry you think that is too many materials and the game is too difficult for you. Also for the fact that you use an example that does not portray the majority instead it shows the minority. That makes a lot of sense ha.
Never said the game was perfect, mechanically sound, or any of that jazz so lets not go there.
You completely missed the point if you think i am complaining about this game being too hard. Also again, point here is not the amount of materials required but the imbalance in crafting skills to make something as low lvl as rank 7.
How about you read everything properly next time? there is also a topic about 'reading comprehension' on this website. You might want to check that one out too.
Heso o kamedomo oyobanu -- Don't cut off your nose to spite your face.
agree.
Requiring an exact ingredient is a copout in this system. If you REALLY want a robust crafting system, you should be able to craft using, in your example, ANY kind of nail, but the quality of that nail should effect the end quality of the product.
SWG did this, where you could have the same ore, it had different properties and qualities based on where it was harvested. So a crafter that knew his stuff knew what the perfect combination of ore properties would create the perfect blaster barrel for a particular attack bonus, for example.
There are ways to create a complex, engaging crafting system. This isn't one of them. It's like they were intentionally trying to inject tedium into their game, and rewarding it with... an item with the same properties as anyone elses.
Crafting in XIV can best be described in the review:
The interface, normally sluggish anyway, is particularly poky when crafting and gathering, and the animations are excruciatingly long. And be sure to have a pad of paper close by or a Web browser window at the ready because the game does not store the recipes you learn.
http://www.gamespot.com/pc/rpg/finalfantasy14/review.html?page=2
The End
Oh GOD, I love this point. 30 minutes means, lets say three people put together one item, each one takes ten minute to do it. Who gets the profits of a crapy ash fishing pole.... ohhh there is no profit... so what do the other two people get for helping you besides.... thanks for the both of you taking ten minute of your life and your mats, on me for absoulutly nothing for every single ash pole I have to craft to get skills, and here, take this in return... ALL MY MONEY, OR A THANKS if your lucky.
'owe no something complex in a game and takes time to level up, ahhhhhhhhh, run and moan on a forum quick!!!!
Then what's the point in making a system "unrestricted"? So you can go back and finish the other skill later, I suppose?
Also, I would think that if they really wanted interdependancy, they'd have focused much harder on means to get products from player to player. As in an AH with player vendor inventories. Something SWG did 7 years ago.
Not saying you're wrong. Just sayin' that they missed the mark by a good spread if that was their intent.
Another really important point I haven't seen made yet is this:
The armoury system - the idea that players will be leveling up multiple jobs by switching their gear.
So it's actually entirely possible that somebody might be a level 7 fisherman who has a level 11 carpenter, lvl 11 blacksmith, and a level 21 armorer on the side. There's nothing unusual about that at all, because your fisherman rank has absolutely nothing to do with your other job ranks.
Granted, far more likely than that is you'll buy the part of even finished fishing pole off somebody else. That's the only way you can make a player economy really work: by introducing a genuine necessity to deal with other players.
Another reason why this game is too frustrating to play. It's just not any fun. Where is the fun? What makes this total convolution any fun to play or craft.
I guess I considered crafting a strong point, but I didn't realize how messed up it really is. I spent a great deal of time crafting in the game without any results. The payoff is just not there.
I don't even have a problem with grinding for a fishing pole. I did that in wow with the Kal'uak fishing pole. The quests were tolerable, sometimes they were even fun. I actually spent a lot of zen time fishing in WOW. I don't play wow anymore, but it's still a good game.
This game is work diguised as a game. It's bizzare.
Sort of rude to quote my message when what you had to write had absolutely no connection to it. Is the implication that, if I supported a game, it must be no fun at all?
The greater bulk of what you wrote here evoked a chuckle. Not at you, but rather at the state of MMORPGs in general. "This game is work disguised as a game" would seem to be a critique leveled at all MMORPGs from time immortal.
I've sort of missed it, really. These more casual offerings these days may have been okay games, but they were rather poor MMORPGs. The sense of scale was lacking. The reduced effort made most pursuits seem significantly less worthwhile.
Please read the thread before you say we are nothing but moaning and groaning because the system is about as complex as building something from Legos which I did since I was three(Not saying a three year old can do this because they can't, but it isn't complex to say the least) Then
@all the people who mentioned we aren't supposed to do it all ourselves.
I'm perfectly fine with that. But as been stated, we don't have to tools to allow it to be utilized currently in any efficient or desirable fashion. For those that haven't, go into 5-6market wards and spend two hours to find nothing. Get back to me. Then start shouting LF item, I did that about 100 times and zero response. Hell I even contacted someone who I knew made them and they weren't interested because they didn't have all the mats made and was a waste of time to them since they were ranked up.
This current system is like going to a Flea Market. But imagine that flea Market is lined with rows of cars with the trunk towards you. Now if you want to see what that person has, you have to go up and ask him, at that point he opens his trunk and shows you. If you don't like what you see, well unto the next one.
Now these are long rows of cars, and once your done with another, you can move to the next row(another ward) and you might just find something you were looking for, but chances are if each person had a table out and you could scan as you walked, you would not be wasting your time going up to everyone and asking what they got and you'd find what you want pretty quickly.
Now obviously, the majority of players aren't in a dedicated superhardcore guild. Because if we were, we wouldn't be on the forums, as we would all be working together(Reason why I imagine there are level 25+crafters out there as of Sunday, I saw a 25goldsmith sunday morning, so he probably is 30 by now at least) So for this game being tailored to the "casual" person, the functionality isn't their even for some people that are near the hardcore spectrum but aren't in a 100% structured setting to participate.
@the lower being helped by higher.
I'd almost buy this argument except for the fact that the majority of people will only have one character. I don't need the low level items to play, which is obvious since no one has the level 6 Axe or the level 7 fishing pole @level 6 or 7, and usually not before level 12. So in that regards the market for these items will be so absurdly small since currently: they are not needed, and many people will just pass them up and save for a higher level item.
Can someone please translate this gibberish for me?
I can't believe I'm going to defend something about this game, but what's wrong with buying materials off other players that you can't make yourself? I don't get it. If there's no profit in making something, don't make it. If you need it for yourself, then be prepared to pay for it if you need mats. I just don't understand the problem here.
Sure, it's ridiculous to expect any one person to put together all those mats by themselves, but beyond that what's the problem? I know there are other problems with crafting, but let's stick to this specific issue as that is the point of the OP.
edit: if the complaint is that it's hard to find mats on other players because of the trade system, that's again, another issue, and your complaint should be that there's no AH or proper trade system to quickly find specific items and buy them.
Didn't mean to offend you, but my post was directly related to your comments. Please don't take it personally, I respect your ardor for the game and your individuality.
On the other hand, I do love MMOs. I'm passionate about them, as you are yourself. That's why I'm on this forum.
I'm going to use this part. You can have a player economy work without interdependency. SWG accomplished this greatly before the CU. People hard to buy their equipment and goods from crafters. Then it broke, and you had to go buy more. Those who did not craft sold raw materials, plot placements or whatnot to crafters. It was a solid system that worked quite well. Heck they have a bazaar setup so you don't have to be present(like vendors) so its technically half-way to a working system if they just fix it properly.
I did edit in (and subsequently removed) something that said:
You may have played games that claimed to be MMORPGs before but, to look at the bulk of this message, it's like Final Fantasy XIV was your first authentic MMORPG experience.
But in retrospect,. "authentic" isn't the right word to use. "Old school," that may be more appropriate.
Final Fantasy XIV is an MMORPG of old school sensibilities, even as it attempts to accomidate the casuals with stuff like limiting guildleve access and the fatigue system. It may, comparatively, feel like work for you. But that's a large reason why old school players enjoy it so much: there's a sense of substance here that you can't find in games that require less effort.
I've been looking for a fishing pole upgrade since the early release, and only ever found 1 ash rod with a ton of time spent in the wards. It was so ridiculously priced i couldnt touch it
Methinx SE completely missed the point on complex crafting systems. It's not about the system itself, it's about the end product. People like to dabble for days and days, trying to create the absolute best item they can make. It's interesting, experimenting with different combinations of ingredients and seeing what the results are. It's even better where you can have different outcomes that are great in their own way.
Spending days and days trying to get the exact and only components it takes to create an item that is exactly the same as everyone elses? That's just the worst of both worlds.