I think the problem here is that a majority of the people have no clue what in the world they are doing; they underestimate the learning curve of the game. There is a tremendous learning curve to this game and it extends to crafting. If you don't understand the effect gear has on crafting, you'll never craft anything successfully; If you don't understand the orb system, you will never craft anything successfully; if you don't understand that crafting with a buff from said crafting guild helps, well you can still craft successfully but that helps tremendously. Crafting takes skill and understanding, and once you are able to achieve that you should have no problems crafting anything, I certainly haven't.
This is a joke right? Learning curve of crafting is hard? Yellow, Red, Blinking=lower chance of success. Solid white=best chance. Red usually raised the quality, and you have your 3options+options for ranking in crafting.
Crafting with a buff, wow so hard. Go to area(be it camp or guild house) pay money. Craft.
There is no understanding. Its a system meant to counter automation. No one has a problem making and item successfully be it normal or HQ if they ranked to 10+ in multiple crafting professions.
This issue has been purely stated on the borked levels of the system that require level 21 items to craft a level 7 item. That doesn't make sense for anyone. If it does for you, please explain it to the rest of us how it makes sense as we would love to hear some insight.
I'll take a shot at it.
I think SE expects you to "trade" for that level 21 item, not go out and craft or farm it yourself. They are trying to build an economic engine that's full of player interdependency hence they make it difficult for a player to do it all themselves.
They also want to "integrate" the player base, meaning there might be less stratification between veteran players vs new ones, as both groups will benefit from trading with each other, regardless of level since few people will have the time to be totally self-sufficent.
From everything I've observed (from the outside) it seems that SE is trying very hard to force people to interact with each other at several layers, crafting, combat, questing, and most players today aren't really up for that.
Like i said if they expect us to trade for those items why not give us sufficient tools to do that?no AH, no mail system, no transportation system between three cities even if you have intention to trade with someone the current system discourages you. Even in your own link shell its hard to find someone willing to waste their anima to teleport to your location.
Also i highly doubt that a lvl 7 or lvl 8 crafter would have enough gils to pay for lvl 21 items. Its not just this item, there are many examples where to make lvl 1 stuff you need lvl 21 materials from other crafters. if they had implemented this idea way down the road say lvl 30 or 40 above i would understand but its ridiculous in its current state.
Actually, I'm going to assume that a level 7 crafter can create some things, just not everything such as more challenging objects like the object in question. So one assumes they'd make their money from selling low level items, accumulate enough wealth to make the better one and then sell it.
I remember in Vanguard, (another game with intricate crafting) some low level crafters in my guild had a staggering amount of gold for their level because they were actually quite "pro" at crafting. To compare , at like level 20, I had maybe 2 or 3 gold, while a guild crafter of the same level had 55 gold, and this was in the first few weeks. So he certainly could have afforded more expensive crafting materials beyond what his level allowed.
I'm not saying that's how FFXIV works by the way, haven't played it, just offering ideas on what SE was thinking when designing this system.
As for the lack of the trade tools you mentioned, I agree, these need improved and it looks like they just didn't have the time to put them in at the time of launch. But also it seems like they again were trying to force people to interact one on one to accomodate trading, much like a medival barter system)
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I wonder if there is a technical reason why there is not an in-game recipe book. Much nicer than spending 15 minutes drawing a flowchart in order to craft somehting.
I wonder if there is a technical reason why there is not an in-game recipe book. Much nicer than spending 15 minutes drawing a flowchart in order to craft somehting.
I think SE expects you to "trade" for that level 21 item, not go out and craft or farm it yourself. They are trying to build an economic engine that's full of player interdependency hence they make it difficult for a player to do it all themselves.
They also want to "integrate" the player base, meaning there might be less stratification between veteran players vs new ones, as both groups will benefit from trading with each other, regardless of level since few people will have the time to be totally self-sufficent.
From everything I've observed (from the outside) it seems that SE is trying very hard to force people to interact with each other at several layers, crafting, combat, questing, and most players today aren't really up for that.
And if the server pop drops, then what happens to this economic system and the overall game itself if one player cannot craft things by themselves.
Velika: City of Wheels: Among the mortal races, the humans were the only one that never built cities or great empires; a curse laid upon them by their creator, Gidd, forced them to wander as nomads for twenty centuries...
I think SE expects you to "trade" for that level 21 item, not go out and craft or farm it yourself. They are trying to build an economic engine that's full of player interdependency hence they make it difficult for a player to do it all themselves.
They also want to "integrate" the player base, meaning there might be less stratification between veteran players vs new ones, as both groups will benefit from trading with each other, regardless of level since few people will have the time to be totally self-sufficent.
From everything I've observed (from the outside) it seems that SE is trying very hard to force people to interact with each other at several layers, crafting, combat, questing, and most players today aren't really up for that.
And if the server pop drops, then what happens to this economic system and the overall game itself if one player cannot craft things by themselves.
As pop drops, so does the number of people that need something, so it doesn't really matter.
I'd like to just review a few points because it seems that a lot of posters on this thread are simply skipping over some important information.
1. In order to create the first upgrade to armor, weapons, crafting items (level 7-9 items) in FFXIV, materials are required from multiple crafting professions in varying levels of skill from Rank 7-21. As the item level increases (say level 24) so do the requirements and overall skill level needed. The ash fishing pole is just one of many examples that can be given to show the wide range of levels required to craft (even low level) finished products.
Here's another low level example: Bronze Hoplon which is a level 9 shield. It requires a level 10 Armorer to create using 4 different materials created by 4 different professions ranging from level 1-19 and 8 different base items (about 25 total) to complete.
And here's a ridiculous high level item: Iron Labrys which is a level 30 axe requiring a level 21 Blacksmith to create using 5 materials created by 5 different professions requiring a staggering number of base items to make and level 30 in some crafting professions to even attempt some of the base items.
The point of these examples is not in the complexity of the crafting, but in the level range to create some items. A level 10 item requiring level 19 components to make and a level 21 item requiring level 30 items to create is fine if there is a player economy to be able to get the higher level/other profession ingredients needed to make the finished item. The problem is #2.
2. There is no player economy in FFXIV. There is no trade channel, there is no auction house, there is no mail, shouting doesn't work because of the horrible chat filters (your shout of "Looking to buy level 30 crafting component for my level 21 craft" gets burried within seconds by "Harry Pothead gains rank 12 Carpenter!")
I would love... L O V E to be able to buy the crafting items I need to make/repair my weapons/armor but unfortunately after spending the last 3 days exhausting every single (horrible) trade option available in the game I currently cannot play because my shield/sword are broken and I can not find any one to repair them.
It really seems that the crafting/adventuring teams at SE never talked to the economy/trade teams and they just put the finished products from both sides into the game and called it good.
There is a huge disconnect between the need for other players to adventure and craft and the ability to actually find those players.
TL:DR version: The need for high level materials to make low level items would not be such a big deal if there was an easy way to find people offering those items.
"There is as yet insufficient data for a meaningful answer."
Well i have no problem what so ever having to make pieces,that is realistic,that is what EVERYONE should want in their game.Once again i remind people ,it is NOT a race,doesn't matter you have 5 minutes to play or 500,it still is not a race.
Now where they messed up is how they did the NEED for other players.That is unrealistic,i have no problem with someone buying something from another player IF they so desire.However there should be no restriction for a player to go out and get his own crafting ingredients,that is realistic and goes hand in hand with making items.
The problem i see here is that since the two ideas are counterproductive to each other,there is ONLY one reason Square did this.......TIME SINK.People wanted faster leveling,so Square gave it you but you must have realized their is going to be a time sink no matter what .Sqaure Enix draws out a multi year plan,they hope to create enough time sink to buy them time until their next xpac is ready to sell to you.
One very big problem with this system and it was also very evident in FFXI,was it really is inviting RMT into the economy,players are lazy,instead of the huge time sink being effective,they are just going to use rmt and buy it quickly...i guarantee it.So after RMT runs wild the economy is broken,the game will be useless to PS3 players and the whole game design will not be played as intended.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Simple answer here is wait a lil and just send a shout to trade for the part they arent hard to get and if you mine or gather botany half the trouble is cleared up I will say this though no LS and this will be harder much harder the fact is get in a big ls and the game gets easier alot easier.
On its own, I like FFXIV's crafting system more than that of any other game around. Crafting either requires players to invest tons of time into leveling up their skills, or to actually trade with other users. It's not easy, but crafting shouldn't be. If crafting is easy then everyone will want to do it, and there won't be much of an advantage to being a crafter. It's just too bad that the rest of the game does nothing but ruin the crafting/gathering aspects.
I dont understand that diagram but i know where you are going. It seems the parts needed to make an item require a higher craft level then the finish item, this dont make any sense. For example why would a level 5 fishing rod require parts that need a level 11 blackmith ?
I can answer that.....
to make a piece is less skill than being able to assemble the pieces to make a finished product.If you buy into the well planned out crafting system,then you are to believe that you are only as smart as your individual craft,when comes to being able to assemble them,you are less knowledgeable,it all makes sense.
However the reality,is imo just a total time sink,Square didn't plan this out to be realistic,they wanted a good long time sink.
If you think this is too hard of a system to make the pieces,i can tell you that players in FFXI due to using RMT were maxing out crafts in like 2-3 days,that is a VERY unrealistic crafting system,nobody should be a total master of their trade in 2-3 days.So if one is to assume that RMT will rule this economy as it did FFXI,then this kind of time sink is needed to keep it in line with reality.Just the fact that many of you are already level 25 crafts,i find that alone to be a little too fast and unrealsitic.I imagine there is already some around level 50 maybe even higher in crafting,so yes it will soon become a joke even with a huge time sink.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Heh , just give me a mob that drops shit once and a while to gear my rear end with some nice flashy skills and I'm a happy camper. I hope crafting ain't the "Main" goal of advancement in this MMO , not like I'll be playing by any means , but what the hell? Seriously how can people actually defend such a MMO with a crafting system so darn complicated and long? Life is already full of crap and I doubt anyone has the time to waste on crafting. Getting myself a 3rd job would be more worth while so I can get to retirement quicker.
FF11 was dull and FF14 is heading down the same path as it's predecessor. Too bad people can't see further then freaking graphics. Damn shame! Call me a troll , but if this were SquareSoft and not SquareEnix , we'd be having a whole different conversation , since SOFT knew how to make FF's and I'm pretty sure they would of made one hell of a MMO.
Enix should of stayed Enix with Ogre battle which kicked ass even today on the SNES and SquareSoft should of stayed SOFT. But that's pretty much history. One thing they should do though is look back at how SOFT was famous back in the 90's and maybe , I don't know , recreate what made SquareSoft so famous in the first place?
And I'm pretty sure a Ogre Battle MMO would be even more kick ass then a FF MMO , we're at 14 final fantasies? MMO or not,I often get the feeling of "Deja Vu".
The picture below is for a rank 7 ash fishing rod. It is a level 11 craft for carpenters. Random or carefully though out process?
I was called out before for bringing this point up (apparently i was making it up) and when i posted some links to show how ridiculous and random the crafting process is in game. The person calling me out never replied back.
So i would like to get feedback from you guys. This is just one of the many examples like lvling Weaver to lvl 21 to make one part for lvl 7 black smith hammer which needs only 1 lvl Blacksmith to put together or killing a lvl 50 raptor to make a lvl 15 belt, list is endless. Everything is so random and it looks as if devs hardly paid any attention while linking various recepies. If you are going to make something for rank 1 or 7 shouldn't the rest of the crafting skills in same level range? even if not exactly the same how about keeping them 2 or 3 lvl above max?
Diagram is not made by me however this is for those who enjoy crafting. I would like to know what you guys think about it.
Was just going to check your facts real quick and, guess what, the very first thing i checked was incorrect on this chart. Bronze Nugget is lvl 4 BS. http://ffxiv.yg.com/recipe/bronze-nugget?id=122 In fact, everyone of the crafting levels cited in this are 1-2 levels, at least, over the actual requirement. Makes me think you are just trying to put down the game for some ulterior motive. SE steal your girlfriend, slap your dog? Some other company slipping you a little dough to do this?
Makes perfect sense to me honestly. I can put a tire on my car, but I dont have the skills to create my own wheels or tire. I can load my bullets into my gun, even load my own bullets, can tear my gun apart and put it back together when I clean it, but I can't make my own gun barrel.
If I want a fishing rod in real life, I can probably make my own rod and attach the eyelets to it, but I can't make the eyelets myself. Sure maybe I can shape them from the wire but I can't make the wire itself, I'ld have to go buy that from someone far more skilled in metalworking than I am. When it comes to the reel its the same deal, I can attach it to my rod sure, but can I make all the parts that make up that reel myself? The ball bearings, the rivets, the handle, the mount, of course not.
So does this make it a terrible system, nope its realistic. Sure it sucks in a game to have to find Iron Spikes to craft your level 9 sandals, but you know what, it really does take iron spikes to make them. So your just going to have to find someone that can make iron spikes, or learn how to make them yourself.
Why does it have to be linear in level for it to work? Why not just accept its based on realistic crafting and not off what freaking level you are in the game?
And yes it is a longevity thing, that lvl 7 fishing rod you spent a week making, well your not going to vendor it when your done using it are you? No, your going to repair it and hand it down to someone else. Why? Because it takes a lot of effort to build one of those things doesn't it? If it was quick and easy and everyone could make them, well then they would just vednor trash it when they upgraded, just like you do in every other game out there.
Personally I'ld prefer to have a nice old fishing rod that got passed down to me from my father, who got it from his father, who got it from his brother who made it when he was a teenager way back when. Just seems a lot less shallow to me this way, but I guess if thats what you all want, a shallow empty world full of easy and fast and meaningless 'things' that everyone has.
(DISCLAIMER - The use of the word YOU in the above post is not directed at any one person in particular, but towards those who fall into the category itself - there is no personal attack here, neither intentional nor implied.)
So your just going to have to find someone that can make iron spikes, or learn how to make them yourself.
And there is the problem with the system. Actually finding someone that will make those iron spikes. The only real way to get anything in the game is to join the max number of linkshells and then spam the LS channels that you're looking for a certain item.
That's great, if anyone in the Linkshells that I'm a member of could actually make the item I need. Linkshells have another problem with the way they're set up, that is, you can be in multiple Linkshells at the same time. This leads to cliques forming within the Linkshells (I'm a part of a few, and have been ignored by even more) and even if you're in the same one as a crafter that can make the items you need, there's no guarantee that they'll make it, or not gouge you with the price. Guilds do not exist in the game and joining LS guarantees nothing but a global chat channel with some other people.
I do not remember this mentality being in FFXI. The LS I was in was a close knit group of about 30-40 players. Some people were members of other Linkshells as well, but as a whole we were all part of 1 Guild. That feeling is not in FFXIV, at least not for me.
Sure, it's a new game and people will get there eventually, but it wouldn't even be a problem if there was some type of public trade system that worked.
You can literally (and I have) search through retainers for an entire day's gaming session and not find what you need.
In real life you don't have that problem. There are tons of methods to get materials you need to make items so comparing the game to how constructing things in real life is done is not a valid point. Also in real life, most materials don't cost more at the store than the finished product is worth.
"There is as yet insufficient data for a meaningful answer."
I will reiterate my last statement, I've had no problems crafting. Now I will admit I've botched some crafts for no reason at all (highly frustrating) but I've had nothing as bad to the extent as the people above. And like I also said above, going to your crafting guild is not completely necessary, crafting can be perfectly done anywhere. I've crafted Cotton Cowls under the recommended level to make them, and had no problems. My problem with crafting system is not the success rate but the time it takes to make something, 25 minutes to make 1 cotton cowl? And then the gathering of mats from the marketplace is just unfair, I despise the bazaar system with the deepest hatred possible. If I could burn one thing in the entire world, it would be the bazaar system. Like someone said earlier, "Good intentions are the root of all evil."
Was just going to check your facts real quick and, guess what, the very first thing i checked was incorrect on this chart. Bronze Nugget is lvl 4 BS. http://ffxiv.yg.com/recipe/bronze-nugget?id=122 In fact, everyone of the crafting levels cited in this are 1-2 levels, at least, over the actual requirement. Makes me think you are just trying to put down the game for some ulterior motive. SE steal your girlfriend, slap your dog? Some other company slipping you a little dough to do this?
Yes the numbers are off a little bit. Hempen Bowstring, for example, requres level 3 Weaver not 1. But it's really a moot point, as seeing that Iron Wire does in fact require level 21 Armorer to craft, the rest of the items could be level 1 and it wouldn't invalidate the original point.
Seems like you're just grasping at straws really.
"There is as yet insufficient data for a meaningful answer."
Was just going to check your facts real quick and, guess what, the very first thing i checked was incorrect on this chart. Bronze Nugget is lvl 4 BS. http://ffxiv.yg.com/recipe/bronze-nugget?id=122 In fact, everyone of the crafting levels cited in this are 1-2 levels, at least, over the actual requirement. Makes me think you are just trying to put down the game for some ulterior motive. SE steal your girlfriend, slap your dog? Some other company slipping you a little dough to do this?
Yes the numbers are off a little bit. Hempen Bowstring, for example, requres level 3 Weaver not 1. But it's really a moot point, as seeing that Iron Wire does in fact require level 21 Armorer to craft, the rest of the items could be level 1 and it wouldn't invalidate the original point.
Seems like you're just grasping at straws really.
However, even this point becomes moot after the game has time to develop doesn't it. That near impossible to get iron wire becomes a common place part that thousands can make in a month or two. Sure, for the pioneers of the game it will be more of a struggle - uphill both ways, in the snow kind of thing sure, but it wont last forever. You dont want to be able to tell all those young whipper-snappers how easy they got it now-a-days in 6 months?
"Back in my day we had to spend weeks, thats right weeks looking for a single piece of iron wire, you kids these days have no idea just how easy you have it!"
Come on, where is your sense of adventure! I'ld rather have the hard times now than comprimise the realism in the recipes. There are tons of easy mode crafting games out there that were 'simplified' and are now just basic crap because of it. Dont ask to destroy yet another one because it isn't easy enough for you right now.
(DISCLAIMER - The use of the word YOU in the above post is not directed at any one person in particular, but towards those who fall into the category itself - there is no personal attack here, neither intentional nor implied.)
Was just going to check your facts real quick and, guess what, the very first thing i checked was incorrect on this chart. Bronze Nugget is lvl 4 BS. http://ffxiv.yg.com/recipe/bronze-nugget?id=122 In fact, everyone of the crafting levels cited in this are 1-2 levels, at least, over the actual requirement. Makes me think you are just trying to put down the game for some ulterior motive. SE steal your girlfriend, slap your dog? Some other company slipping you a little dough to do this?
Yes the numbers are off a little bit. Hempen Bowstring, for example, requres level 3 Weaver not 1. But it's really a moot point, as seeing that Iron Wire does in fact require level 21 Armorer to craft, the rest of the items could be level 1 and it wouldn't invalidate the original point.
Seems like you're just grasping at straws really.
Bronze nuggets is cited as being 11 BS on the chart when in fact they are 4 BS. That's not a small mistake it is an outright lie in order to prove a preconceived notion by the OP. The fact that you didn't highlight that part of my original post does not make it go away. Add that to the fact that every single one of the other levels are incorrect and It seems to me that the OP is the one "grasping at straws".
Was just going to check your facts real quick and, guess what, the very first thing i checked was incorrect on this chart. Bronze Nugget is lvl 4 BS. http://ffxiv.yg.com/recipe/bronze-nugget?id=122 In fact, everyone of the crafting levels cited in this are 1-2 levels, at least, over the actual requirement. Makes me think you are just trying to put down the game for some ulterior motive. SE steal your girlfriend, slap your dog? Some other company slipping you a little dough to do this?
Yes the numbers are off a little bit. Hempen Bowstring, for example, requres level 3 Weaver not 1. But it's really a moot point, as seeing that Iron Wire does in fact require level 21 Armorer to craft, the rest of the items could be level 1 and it wouldn't invalidate the original point.
Seems like you're just grasping at straws really.
Bronze nuggets is cited as being 11 BS on the chart when in fact they are 4 BS. That's not a small mistake it is an outright lie in order to prove a preconceived notion by the OP. The fact that you didn't highlight that part of my original post does not make it go away. Add that to the fact that every single one of the other levels are incorrect and It seems to me that the OP is the one "grasping at straws".
Every single one? how about you prove it to us? doesn't change the fact that you still need a lvl 21 armorer to make something so ridiculosly low level. How about you check recepies for Black smith hammer which requires lvl 21 weaver? and numerous such examples i can link it if you like?
Sorry but you are too focused on nit picking that you missed the bigger picture. So it is you who is grasping at straws here.
Was just going to check your facts real quick and, guess what, the very first thing i checked was incorrect on this chart. Bronze Nugget is lvl 4 BS. http://ffxiv.yg.com/recipe/bronze-nugget?id=122 In fact, everyone of the crafting levels cited in this are 1-2 levels, at least, over the actual requirement. Makes me think you are just trying to put down the game for some ulterior motive. SE steal your girlfriend, slap your dog? Some other company slipping you a little dough to do this?
Yes the numbers are off a little bit. Hempen Bowstring, for example, requres level 3 Weaver not 1. But it's really a moot point, as seeing that Iron Wire does in fact require level 21 Armorer to craft, the rest of the items could be level 1 and it wouldn't invalidate the original point.
Seems like you're just grasping at straws really.
Bronze nuggets is cited as being 11 BS on the chart when in fact they are 4 BS. That's not a small mistake it is an outright lie in order to prove a preconceived notion by the OP. The fact that you didn't highlight that part of my original post does not make it go away. Add that to the fact that every single one of the other levels are incorrect and It seems to me that the OP is the one "grasping at straws".
Every single one? how about you prove it to us? doesn't change the fact that you still need a lvl 21 armorer to make something so ridiculosly low level. How about you check recepies for Black smith hammer which requires lvl 21 weaver? and numerous such examples i can link it if you like?
Sorry but you are too focused on nit picking that you missed the bigger picture. So it is you who is grasping at straws here.
So now we can just critique a game by pulling bullshit facts and lies out of the sky that have no basis in truth? His argument was based on the facts that he presented and they are all screwed up. Based on your standards, here's an argument for you then. WoW is owned by space aliens and they are using the revenue to enslave the human race. Discuss.
Was just going to check your facts real quick and, guess what, the very first thing i checked was incorrect on this chart. Bronze Nugget is lvl 4 BS. http://ffxiv.yg.com/recipe/bronze-nugget?id=122 In fact, everyone of the crafting levels cited in this are 1-2 levels, at least, over the actual requirement. Makes me think you are just trying to put down the game for some ulterior motive. SE steal your girlfriend, slap your dog? Some other company slipping you a little dough to do this?
Yes the numbers are off a little bit. Hempen Bowstring, for example, requres level 3 Weaver not 1. But it's really a moot point, as seeing that Iron Wire does in fact require level 21 Armorer to craft, the rest of the items could be level 1 and it wouldn't invalidate the original point.
Seems like you're just grasping at straws really.
Bronze nuggets is cited as being 11 BS on the chart when in fact they are 4 BS. That's not a small mistake it is an outright lie in order to prove a preconceived notion by the OP. The fact that you didn't highlight that part of my original post does not make it go away. Add that to the fact that every single one of the other levels are incorrect and It seems to me that the OP is the one "grasping at straws".
Every single one? how about you prove it to us? doesn't change the fact that you still need a lvl 21 armorer to make something so ridiculosly low level. How about you check recepies for Black smith hammer which requires lvl 21 weaver? and numerous such examples i can link it if you like?
Sorry but you are too focused on nit picking that you missed the bigger picture. So it is you who is grasping at straws here.
So now we can just critique a game by pulling bullshit facts and lies out of the sky that have no basis in truth? His argument was based on the facts that he presented and they are all screwed up. Based on your standards, here's an argument for you then. WoW is owned by space aliens and they are using the revenue to enslave the human race. Discuss.
it's not as if you are epitome of truth yourself. yes it requires BS 4 to make nuggets but what about the rest? you said EVERY SINGLE LEVEL is incorrect and that is bull***. i am still waiting for you to prove it. Bronze fish hook still need BS 11 and Armorer 21 is needed for making wires and BS 15 is neede for making bronze reel; Bronze rivets need Armorer 11. Everything is spot on.
Was just going to check your facts real quick and, guess what, the very first thing i checked was incorrect on this chart. Bronze Nugget is lvl 4 BS. http://ffxiv.yg.com/recipe/bronze-nugget?id=122 In fact, everyone of the crafting levels cited in this are 1-2 levels, at least, over the actual requirement. Makes me think you are just trying to put down the game for some ulterior motive. SE steal your girlfriend, slap your dog? Some other company slipping you a little dough to do this?
Yes the numbers are off a little bit. Hempen Bowstring, for example, requres level 3 Weaver not 1. But it's really a moot point, as seeing that Iron Wire does in fact require level 21 Armorer to craft, the rest of the items could be level 1 and it wouldn't invalidate the original point.
Seems like you're just grasping at straws really.
Bronze nuggets is cited as being 11 BS on the chart when in fact they are 4 BS. That's not a small mistake it is an outright lie in order to prove a preconceived notion by the OP. The fact that you didn't highlight that part of my original post does not make it go away. Add that to the fact that every single one of the other levels are incorrect and It seems to me that the OP is the one "grasping at straws".
Every single one? how about you prove it to us? doesn't change the fact that you still need a lvl 21 armorer to make something so ridiculosly low level. How about you check recepies for Black smith hammer which requires lvl 21 weaver? and numerous such examples i can link it if you like?
Sorry but you are too focused on nit picking that you missed the bigger picture. So it is you who is grasping at straws here.
So now we can just critique a game by pulling bullshit facts and lies out of the sky that have no basis in truth? His argument was based on the facts that he presented and they are all screwed up. Based on your standards, here's an argument for you then. WoW is owned by space aliens and they are using the revenue to enslave the human race. Discuss.
Hrm... The chart in the OP has Bronze Nuggets at 4 BS.... Iron nugget is listed as 11 BS.
I think you misread it. /shrug
There are 3 types of people in the world. 1.) Those who make things happen 2.) Those who watch things happen 3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
So at the end of the day, it seems the crafting system might actually work if they could resolve the trade and communication issues. An auction house perhaps, better chat channels or something to help facilitate trading might go a long way to relieve the frustration that is going on in the general crafting community.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
the game is just not fun at all. You dont feel good after u have crafted something, u dont feel good when you do quest. You just dont feel fun at all playing the game. Feels more like a chore because you know if you dont do it then others are ahead of you. Think after the 30 days free im gona quit and wait for a bit but at the same if i wait i bet ya ill be soo behind from others and crafting things would be even worse than now.
Not sure where SE is going with the game? maybe they thought this is a good idea and make players take forever to progress the game, but at least make it a bit more fun. Not everyone wants to craft as well, your just force to do it.
About the guildlevl, u 8 then cooldown in 36 hours alright fair enough. but WTF am i suppose to during those times? i can finsh those quests in an hour, max in 2 hours. Then wat?? craft quests 8 of them again takes about 30 min to 1 hour. whats next?? nothing but grind mobs.
Maybe if we changed class we go do another set of 8 quests would be good? at least theres something to do. And i know people will say u can do party quests and repeat them. But FFS who wants to do repeat quests??? i just cant wait for GW2 least they have something different with quests.
Comments
Actually, I'm going to assume that a level 7 crafter can create some things, just not everything such as more challenging objects like the object in question. So one assumes they'd make their money from selling low level items, accumulate enough wealth to make the better one and then sell it.
I remember in Vanguard, (another game with intricate crafting) some low level crafters in my guild had a staggering amount of gold for their level because they were actually quite "pro" at crafting. To compare , at like level 20, I had maybe 2 or 3 gold, while a guild crafter of the same level had 55 gold, and this was in the first few weeks. So he certainly could have afforded more expensive crafting materials beyond what his level allowed.
I'm not saying that's how FFXIV works by the way, haven't played it, just offering ideas on what SE was thinking when designing this system.
As for the lack of the trade tools you mentioned, I agree, these need improved and it looks like they just didn't have the time to put them in at the time of launch. But also it seems like they again were trying to force people to interact one on one to accomodate trading, much like a medival barter system)
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I wonder if there is a technical reason why there is not an in-game recipe book. Much nicer than spending 15 minutes drawing a flowchart in order to craft somehting.
That would be too simple!
SE like to take the fun out of everything.
And if the server pop drops, then what happens to this economic system and the overall game itself if one player cannot craft things by themselves.
Velika: City of Wheels: Among the mortal races, the humans were the only one that never built cities or great empires; a curse laid upon them by their creator, Gidd, forced them to wander as nomads for twenty centuries...
As pop drops, so does the number of people that need something, so it doesn't really matter.
I'd like to just review a few points because it seems that a lot of posters on this thread are simply skipping over some important information.
1. In order to create the first upgrade to armor, weapons, crafting items (level 7-9 items) in FFXIV, materials are required from multiple crafting professions in varying levels of skill from Rank 7-21. As the item level increases (say level 24) so do the requirements and overall skill level needed. The ash fishing pole is just one of many examples that can be given to show the wide range of levels required to craft (even low level) finished products.
Here's another low level example: Bronze Hoplon which is a level 9 shield. It requires a level 10 Armorer to create using 4 different materials created by 4 different professions ranging from level 1-19 and 8 different base items (about 25 total) to complete.
And here's a ridiculous high level item: Iron Labrys which is a level 30 axe requiring a level 21 Blacksmith to create using 5 materials created by 5 different professions requiring a staggering number of base items to make and level 30 in some crafting professions to even attempt some of the base items.
The point of these examples is not in the complexity of the crafting, but in the level range to create some items. A level 10 item requiring level 19 components to make and a level 21 item requiring level 30 items to create is fine if there is a player economy to be able to get the higher level/other profession ingredients needed to make the finished item. The problem is #2.
2. There is no player economy in FFXIV. There is no trade channel, there is no auction house, there is no mail, shouting doesn't work because of the horrible chat filters (your shout of "Looking to buy level 30 crafting component for my level 21 craft" gets burried within seconds by "Harry Pothead gains rank 12 Carpenter!")
I would love... L O V E to be able to buy the crafting items I need to make/repair my weapons/armor but unfortunately after spending the last 3 days exhausting every single (horrible) trade option available in the game I currently cannot play because my shield/sword are broken and I can not find any one to repair them.
It really seems that the crafting/adventuring teams at SE never talked to the economy/trade teams and they just put the finished products from both sides into the game and called it good.
There is a huge disconnect between the need for other players to adventure and craft and the ability to actually find those players.
TL:DR version: The need for high level materials to make low level items would not be such a big deal if there was an easy way to find people offering those items.
"There is as yet insufficient data for a meaningful answer."
Well i have no problem what so ever having to make pieces,that is realistic,that is what EVERYONE should want in their game.Once again i remind people ,it is NOT a race,doesn't matter you have 5 minutes to play or 500,it still is not a race.
Now where they messed up is how they did the NEED for other players.That is unrealistic,i have no problem with someone buying something from another player IF they so desire.However there should be no restriction for a player to go out and get his own crafting ingredients,that is realistic and goes hand in hand with making items.
The problem i see here is that since the two ideas are counterproductive to each other,there is ONLY one reason Square did this.......TIME SINK.People wanted faster leveling,so Square gave it you but you must have realized their is going to be a time sink no matter what .Sqaure Enix draws out a multi year plan,they hope to create enough time sink to buy them time until their next xpac is ready to sell to you.
One very big problem with this system and it was also very evident in FFXI,was it really is inviting RMT into the economy,players are lazy,instead of the huge time sink being effective,they are just going to use rmt and buy it quickly...i guarantee it.So after RMT runs wild the economy is broken,the game will be useless to PS3 players and the whole game design will not be played as intended.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Simple answer here is wait a lil and just send a shout to trade for the part they arent hard to get and if you mine or gather botany half the trouble is cleared up I will say this though no LS and this will be harder much harder the fact is get in a big ls and the game gets easier alot easier.
On its own, I like FFXIV's crafting system more than that of any other game around. Crafting either requires players to invest tons of time into leveling up their skills, or to actually trade with other users. It's not easy, but crafting shouldn't be. If crafting is easy then everyone will want to do it, and there won't be much of an advantage to being a crafter. It's just too bad that the rest of the game does nothing but ruin the crafting/gathering aspects.
I can answer that.....
to make a piece is less skill than being able to assemble the pieces to make a finished product.If you buy into the well planned out crafting system,then you are to believe that you are only as smart as your individual craft,when comes to being able to assemble them,you are less knowledgeable,it all makes sense.
However the reality,is imo just a total time sink,Square didn't plan this out to be realistic,they wanted a good long time sink.
If you think this is too hard of a system to make the pieces,i can tell you that players in FFXI due to using RMT were maxing out crafts in like 2-3 days,that is a VERY unrealistic crafting system,nobody should be a total master of their trade in 2-3 days.So if one is to assume that RMT will rule this economy as it did FFXI,then this kind of time sink is needed to keep it in line with reality.Just the fact that many of you are already level 25 crafts,i find that alone to be a little too fast and unrealsitic.I imagine there is already some around level 50 maybe even higher in crafting,so yes it will soon become a joke even with a huge time sink.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Heh , just give me a mob that drops shit once and a while to gear my rear end with some nice flashy skills and I'm a happy camper. I hope crafting ain't the "Main" goal of advancement in this MMO , not like I'll be playing by any means , but what the hell? Seriously how can people actually defend such a MMO with a crafting system so darn complicated and long? Life is already full of crap and I doubt anyone has the time to waste on crafting. Getting myself a 3rd job would be more worth while so I can get to retirement quicker.
FF11 was dull and FF14 is heading down the same path as it's predecessor. Too bad people can't see further then freaking graphics. Damn shame! Call me a troll , but if this were SquareSoft and not SquareEnix , we'd be having a whole different conversation , since SOFT knew how to make FF's and I'm pretty sure they would of made one hell of a MMO.
Enix should of stayed Enix with Ogre battle which kicked ass even today on the SNES and SquareSoft should of stayed SOFT. But that's pretty much history. One thing they should do though is look back at how SOFT was famous back in the 90's and maybe , I don't know , recreate what made SquareSoft so famous in the first place?
And I'm pretty sure a Ogre Battle MMO would be even more kick ass then a FF MMO , we're at 14 final fantasies? MMO or not,I often get the feeling of "Deja Vu".
Was just going to check your facts real quick and, guess what, the very first thing i checked was incorrect on this chart. Bronze Nugget is lvl 4 BS. http://ffxiv.yg.com/recipe/bronze-nugget?id=122 In fact, everyone of the crafting levels cited in this are 1-2 levels, at least, over the actual requirement. Makes me think you are just trying to put down the game for some ulterior motive. SE steal your girlfriend, slap your dog? Some other company slipping you a little dough to do this?
Makes perfect sense to me honestly. I can put a tire on my car, but I dont have the skills to create my own wheels or tire. I can load my bullets into my gun, even load my own bullets, can tear my gun apart and put it back together when I clean it, but I can't make my own gun barrel.
If I want a fishing rod in real life, I can probably make my own rod and attach the eyelets to it, but I can't make the eyelets myself. Sure maybe I can shape them from the wire but I can't make the wire itself, I'ld have to go buy that from someone far more skilled in metalworking than I am. When it comes to the reel its the same deal, I can attach it to my rod sure, but can I make all the parts that make up that reel myself? The ball bearings, the rivets, the handle, the mount, of course not.
So does this make it a terrible system, nope its realistic. Sure it sucks in a game to have to find Iron Spikes to craft your level 9 sandals, but you know what, it really does take iron spikes to make them. So your just going to have to find someone that can make iron spikes, or learn how to make them yourself.
Why does it have to be linear in level for it to work? Why not just accept its based on realistic crafting and not off what freaking level you are in the game?
And yes it is a longevity thing, that lvl 7 fishing rod you spent a week making, well your not going to vendor it when your done using it are you? No, your going to repair it and hand it down to someone else. Why? Because it takes a lot of effort to build one of those things doesn't it? If it was quick and easy and everyone could make them, well then they would just vednor trash it when they upgraded, just like you do in every other game out there.
Personally I'ld prefer to have a nice old fishing rod that got passed down to me from my father, who got it from his father, who got it from his brother who made it when he was a teenager way back when. Just seems a lot less shallow to me this way, but I guess if thats what you all want, a shallow empty world full of easy and fast and meaningless 'things' that everyone has.
(DISCLAIMER - The use of the word YOU in the above post is not directed at any one person in particular, but towards those who fall into the category itself - there is no personal attack here, neither intentional nor implied.)
And there is the problem with the system. Actually finding someone that will make those iron spikes. The only real way to get anything in the game is to join the max number of linkshells and then spam the LS channels that you're looking for a certain item.
That's great, if anyone in the Linkshells that I'm a member of could actually make the item I need. Linkshells have another problem with the way they're set up, that is, you can be in multiple Linkshells at the same time. This leads to cliques forming within the Linkshells (I'm a part of a few, and have been ignored by even more) and even if you're in the same one as a crafter that can make the items you need, there's no guarantee that they'll make it, or not gouge you with the price. Guilds do not exist in the game and joining LS guarantees nothing but a global chat channel with some other people.
I do not remember this mentality being in FFXI. The LS I was in was a close knit group of about 30-40 players. Some people were members of other Linkshells as well, but as a whole we were all part of 1 Guild. That feeling is not in FFXIV, at least not for me.
Sure, it's a new game and people will get there eventually, but it wouldn't even be a problem if there was some type of public trade system that worked.
You can literally (and I have) search through retainers for an entire day's gaming session and not find what you need.
In real life you don't have that problem. There are tons of methods to get materials you need to make items so comparing the game to how constructing things in real life is done is not a valid point. Also in real life, most materials don't cost more at the store than the finished product is worth.
"There is as yet insufficient data for a meaningful answer."
Ahhh let me rephrase that, different problems. :P
Yes the numbers are off a little bit. Hempen Bowstring, for example, requres level 3 Weaver not 1. But it's really a moot point, as seeing that Iron Wire does in fact require level 21 Armorer to craft, the rest of the items could be level 1 and it wouldn't invalidate the original point.
Seems like you're just grasping at straws really.
"There is as yet insufficient data for a meaningful answer."
However, even this point becomes moot after the game has time to develop doesn't it. That near impossible to get iron wire becomes a common place part that thousands can make in a month or two. Sure, for the pioneers of the game it will be more of a struggle - uphill both ways, in the snow kind of thing sure, but it wont last forever. You dont want to be able to tell all those young whipper-snappers how easy they got it now-a-days in 6 months?
"Back in my day we had to spend weeks, thats right weeks looking for a single piece of iron wire, you kids these days have no idea just how easy you have it!"
Come on, where is your sense of adventure! I'ld rather have the hard times now than comprimise the realism in the recipes. There are tons of easy mode crafting games out there that were 'simplified' and are now just basic crap because of it. Dont ask to destroy yet another one because it isn't easy enough for you right now.
(DISCLAIMER - The use of the word YOU in the above post is not directed at any one person in particular, but towards those who fall into the category itself - there is no personal attack here, neither intentional nor implied.)
Bronze nuggets is cited as being 11 BS on the chart when in fact they are 4 BS. That's not a small mistake it is an outright lie in order to prove a preconceived notion by the OP. The fact that you didn't highlight that part of my original post does not make it go away. Add that to the fact that every single one of the other levels are incorrect and It seems to me that the OP is the one "grasping at straws".
BTW, hempen bowstring is level 1 not 3 http://ffxiv.yg.com/recipe/hempen-bowstring?id=478 .
Every single one? how about you prove it to us? doesn't change the fact that you still need a lvl 21 armorer to make something so ridiculosly low level. How about you check recepies for Black smith hammer which requires lvl 21 weaver? and numerous such examples i can link it if you like?
Sorry but you are too focused on nit picking that you missed the bigger picture. So it is you who is grasping at straws here.
I hope this is your job!.....or yes it is a waste of life to play a game for 12-16 hrs a day.
Even shit sometimes has corn in it. That's content.
Sometimes poo is soft and other times it's rock hard, that's variety.
Actually the only thing FFXIV even has in common with crap is that it stinks.
but the music's good For 5 minutes - "theartist"
So now we can just critique a game by pulling bullshit facts and lies out of the sky that have no basis in truth? His argument was based on the facts that he presented and they are all screwed up. Based on your standards, here's an argument for you then. WoW is owned by space aliens and they are using the revenue to enslave the human race. Discuss.
it's not as if you are epitome of truth yourself. yes it requires BS 4 to make nuggets but what about the rest? you said EVERY SINGLE LEVEL is incorrect and that is bull***. i am still waiting for you to prove it. Bronze fish hook still need BS 11 and Armorer 21 is needed for making wires and BS 15 is neede for making bronze reel; Bronze rivets need Armorer 11. Everything is spot on.
Hrm... The chart in the OP has Bronze Nuggets at 4 BS.... Iron nugget is listed as 11 BS.
I think you misread it. /shrug
There are 3 types of people in the world.
1.) Those who make things happen
2.) Those who watch things happen
3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
So at the end of the day, it seems the crafting system might actually work if they could resolve the trade and communication issues. An auction house perhaps, better chat channels or something to help facilitate trading might go a long way to relieve the frustration that is going on in the general crafting community.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
the game is just not fun at all. You dont feel good after u have crafted something, u dont feel good when you do quest. You just dont feel fun at all playing the game. Feels more like a chore because you know if you dont do it then others are ahead of you. Think after the 30 days free im gona quit and wait for a bit but at the same if i wait i bet ya ill be soo behind from others and crafting things would be even worse than now.
Not sure where SE is going with the game? maybe they thought this is a good idea and make players take forever to progress the game, but at least make it a bit more fun. Not everyone wants to craft as well, your just force to do it.
About the guildlevl, u 8 then cooldown in 36 hours alright fair enough. but WTF am i suppose to during those times? i can finsh those quests in an hour, max in 2 hours. Then wat?? craft quests 8 of them again takes about 30 min to 1 hour. whats next?? nothing but grind mobs.
Maybe if we changed class we go do another set of 8 quests would be good? at least theres something to do. And i know people will say u can do party quests and repeat them. But FFS who wants to do repeat quests??? i just cant wait for GW2 least they have something different with quests.