ok, seriously, did you fall when your mum was giving you a birth or something like that? subs in Guild Wars? ROFL. make your own game with subs and take a look how many players will be playing it. I´ll be in GW 2.....
played and deleted or sold accounts: AoC, Lotro, champions, eve, star trek, Aion, city of heroes, etc.
still playing: Guild Wars 1
ya, what he said.
played and deleted/sold: SWG / Planetside / AoC / EQ / EQ2 / WoW / STO / AC
Something cheap like 7$ or whatever. Even if they made 1$ a month "profit" per subscriber they would still make a killing without worring about charging for extra content like dungeons and stuff like that.
Then could still make their cash on fluff items and expansions on top of that.
I would prefer this option over possibly paying for periodic content thats NOT an expantion.
They should not :
ArenaNet’s Global Brand Director, Chris Lye, sent us a note to clarify a couple of things about their plans for Guild Wars 2 post-release content:
“We haven’t decided on what exactly we are or aren’t going to offer for money post-release. We’re open to whatever our players seem most interested in. If, after release, you guys would like more story content, more dungeons, more events, more maps or whatever, it’s something that we have to consider because ultimately making you happy is what makes us successful. Whether we release that in DLC (like the bonus mission packs in GW1) or whether we do it through expansions (Like Eye of the North) is yet to be determined. As to whether or not there are going to be items like XP boosts available in the in game store, I can only reiterate what we’ve said before (and will continue to say,) that we’ll release details on it when they are available, and that our core philosophy of not requiring you to spend additional money to play the game and not making the game difficult or painful to play in order to encourage you to buy things from the store still stands.”
I really like the idea of paying for additional content, its much fairer then subscriptions.... and widely accepted in all game genres accept MMO's
I do not like Chris Lye's spin on it all. They are tiptoeing around the concept of not providing things in your cash shop that provide in-game advantages (xp boosters for example) and then they try to turn it around and imply that they would only charge for things because the FANS want it, and because their #1 goal is what the FANS want... not because they want to find ways to make money post-release.
I would much rather he just be honest and admit that GW2 as an MMO will not be able to sustain itself without heavy micro-transaction business.
I agree that it's annoying when a businessman, who is obviously concerned with maximizing his company's profit, tries to disguise that aspect of business by redirecting thoughts to providing what fans want. I too would prefer them to honestly say, "Hey look, we're a business and we need your money to survive. Now let's look at the pros and cons of various business models for both us, the game developing company (Ie. how large a profit we can turn), and you, the gamers (Ie. how much content you will receive)."
That is essentially what they're doing, explaining the pros of their business model, except that they are focusing only on the pros for us, the gamers, thereby ignoring and downplaying their interest in financial gain. This itself is, of course, a business tactic. Personally, I'm fine with any business model as long as a quality game is produced.
“The thing I would say [about not having a subscription fee] is that we actually have the continued support development model that encourages us to make cooler things than anyone else… If we have to sell you additional content like microtransaction content or anything like that, we have to give you something that you’re going to want to buy. We have to earn your money.”
“We don’t get to say, ‘Oh well, you know, we don’t have to release this content this month, since they’re all going to give us their subscription fee anyways. Let’s just wait until next month and release this cool thing.’ We’re actually kind of bound because if we need income, if we need this game to make some money, we better provide things that people want to buy."
As a fan and a gamer, this is a tremendous philosophy. It means more quality content at a faster rate than subscription fee MMOs. But from a business viewpoint, which is again conveniently downplayed, it sounds awful. They will have to work significantly harder to produce more content at a faster rate just so they can earn as much income as good subscription MMOs earn without making that extra effort. As a business, you would LOVE to be able to be lazy and turn a huge profit. So what gives? Are Anet and NCsoft truly benevolent companies governed solely by their passion for making quality games for the pleasure of their wonderful fans even if it is to their own financial disadvantage? Or is there something about their microtransaction model that they believe will actually allow them to turn a larger profit than a sub model?
Really, it has the potential to be a win-win situation. If Anet can pump out legitimately good content every 2 months or so (good enough that virtually every GW2 player would be interested in it), and charge something like $10 for it, they'd make up nearly 1/3 of a sub-fee right there. Although, again, they'd be working harder than the standard sub-fee MMO company. But combine that with other small bonuses from the in game store, and you could be talking big bucks, especially concerning the seemingly trivial cosmetic content.
I look to Riot's LEAGUE OF LEGENDS, a multiplayer action strategy game which follows a similar business model. It's a completely free-to-play game. Personally, I have yet to pay a dime on it and have been enjoying it for months. However, I believe I am the only one out of my friend group (12 people or so) who has yet to cave in and buy something from Riot's in-game store. At one time or another, and usually on multiple occasions, my friends have purchased new champion skins or new champoins (to get them significanly faster than they could with the in-game point system). Out of curiosity, I decided to calculate how much it would cost to purchase every champion and champion skin from the Riot store. The amount I cacluated back in 8/03/10 was $615.00. And I knew several people who, by that point, had spent over $100 on the "completely free" game. Moreover, LoL keeps earning the big bucks by releasing new champions and skins every 2 weeks. This rapid release of content, and the slow rate of earning in game Influence Points (used as an in game substitute for buying champions) ensures that many players will spend real life money to get the newest stuff. Players are constantly getting something new, and the company keeps generating income. It's a win-win.
The point? Don't underestimate how much people are willing to pay for even the "silly" stuff. Concerning cosmetics, while I think the LoL champion skins are very cool, I'm generally unwilling to pay $5-10 for a visual change to a character that I'd play occasionally in a game like that. Now in an MMO, where I'd devote much more time and be much more personally invested in my character, even I would consider paying to maximize my character's appearance through GW2's high-potential dye and armor set system.
Conclusion? I think Anet is choosing this business model knowing there's a high potential for serious income, and they're completely downplaying that aspect, focusing instead on players' gains within the system. The system could potentially leave both sides satisfied. The company can earn high income to keep producing content, while the players can receive quality content more rapidly. However, I become concerned when the content I wish to purchase begins to cost significantly more money than a sub-fee game would cost...
Yep that's my beef with it all, I don't care how any mmo dev tries to turn a profit, because I have yet to encounter a good mmo that hit my wallet harshly. I do however dislike how deceptive anet is with their interviews at times.
I also don't agree that subscription fees are a free ride and allow companies to be lazy, the best sub-based mmos never died out because they did not get lazy, they felt obligated to provide more content because their customers were paying, and why not, it gives them continued subscribers. A happy subscriber is a paying subscriber.
Anyway yea it would be nicer if anet was a bit more honest with their decisions, instead of going "you know what kiddo? we are doing this awesome concept all for you!!!!"
Originally posted by hulik23
ok, seriously, did you fall when your mum was giving you a birth or something like that? subs in Guild Wars? ROFL. make your own game with subs and take a look how many players will be playing it. I´ll be in GW 2.....
played and deleted or sold accounts: AoC, Lotro, champions, eve, star trek, Aion, city of heroes, etc.
still playing: Guild Wars 1
Luckily subscription mmos still completely dominate the mmo market.
Subscriptions almost make you have to play the game in order to get your money's worth. With one time purchases you don't get that feeling of obligation because of the monthly fee.
What ever happend to playing a game because you like it...not because you are forced to play it.
Subscriptions almost make you have to play the game in order to get your money's worth. With one time purchases you don't get that feeling of obligation because of the monthly fee.
What ever happend to playing a game because you like it...not because you are forced to play it.
Yep. When I don't like the game anymore, I stop paying for it. Hence I stopped playing wow. What's your point?
Subscriptions almost make you have to play the game in order to get your money's worth. With one time purchases you don't get that feeling of obligation because of the monthly fee.
What ever happend to playing a game because you like it...not because you are forced to play it.
Yep. When I don't like the game anymore, I stop paying for it. Hence I stopped playing wow. What's your point?
From what you said in the original quote it sounded like the only reason people play an mmorpg is because paying the sub makes them play.
I dont understand why everyone is operating under this assumption that the arenanet dev's are somehow decieving everyone about there business model. They didnt say anything that couldnt be used to describe the model used currently for GW1. All they said is that they could look at other things to add for payment if players want them to and people are trying to make it seem like its some "gotcha" moment.
Its the same with everyone making claims that they need mountains of money to keep a mmo operational and therefore the b2p business model could not possibly work without extensive cash shop. Meanwhile there are guys out there who are by no means rich who are running there own private mmo emulator servers, hosting hundreds of other players for nothing except there own out of pocket expenses to do so. Am i the only one who see's the logical contradiction with this belief vs. the reality of private servers?
Why are we treating Arenanet like they have some credibility issue? Is there some big lie they told that im not aware of? How about instead of looking for flimsy reasons to call them liar's, we wait until they expose themselves as such. Are we such an unreasonable lot that we cant give them the benefit of the doubt? There not even asking for our money yet. Besides if these guys were just a bunch of greedy money grubbing bastards only in it to get our cash, why would they have left blizzard?
I dont understand why everyone is operating under this assumption that the arenanet dev's are somehow decieving everyone about there business model. They didnt say anything that couldnt be used to describe the model used currently for GW1. All they said is that they could look at other things to add for payment if players want them to and people are trying to make it seem like its some "gotcha" moment.
Its the same with everyone making claims that they need mountains of money to keep a mmo operational and therefore the b2p business model could not possibly work without extensive cash shop. Meanwhile there are guys out there who are by no means rich who are running there own private mmo emulator servers, hosting hundreds of other players for nothing except there own out of pocket expenses to do so. Am i the only one who see's the logical contradiction with this belief vs. the reality of private servers?
Why are we treating Arenanet like they have some credibility issue? Is there some big lie they told that im not aware of? How about instead of looking for flimsy reasons to call them liar's, we wait until they expose themselves as such. Are we such an unreasonable lot that we cant give them the benefit of the doubt? There not even asking for our money yet. Besides if these guys were just a bunch of greedy money grubbing bastards only in it to get our cash, why would they have left blizzard?
In point of fact I believe that the reason they left blizzard was because they didn't believe that games were just a tool to make a profit. I think it had something to do with Blizzard being owned by Vivendi Games.
I used to TL;DR, but then I took a bullet point to the footnote.
I dont understand why everyone is operating under this assumption that the arenanet dev's are somehow decieving everyone about there business model. They didnt say anything that couldnt be used to describe the model used currently for GW1. All they said is that they could look at other things to add for payment if players want them to and people are trying to make it seem like its some "gotcha" moment.
Its the same with everyone making claims that they need mountains of money to keep a mmo operational and therefore the b2p business model could not possibly work without extensive cash shop. Meanwhile there are guys out there who are by no means rich who are running there own private mmo emulator servers, hosting hundreds of other players for nothing except there own out of pocket expenses to do so. Am i the only one who see's the logical contradiction with this belief vs. the reality of private servers?
Why are we treating Arenanet like they have some credibility issue? Is there some big lie they told that im not aware of? How about instead of looking for flimsy reasons to call them liar's, we wait until they expose themselves as such. Are we such an unreasonable lot that we cant give them the benefit of the doubt? There not even asking for our money yet. Besides if these guys were just a bunch of greedy money grubbing bastards only in it to get our cash, why would they have left blizzard?
In point of fact I believe that the reason they left blizzard was because they didn't believe that games were just a tool to make a profit. I think it had something to do with Blizzard being owned by Vivendi Games.
Yep they left blizzard when WoW went into development and blizzard started selling out for a more profit-turning mentality instead of a "let's build innovative games" mentality they originally had.
Which is why it sucks to see anet slowly turn from their philosophy in early gw1 to what they are now where they will provide tons of micro transactions, for what they would like you to believe is strictly for our sake.
A lot of people won't have any problem with this, sort of like 12million people don't have major problems with wow. But from an objective point of view it is the metamorphisis of anet into so many other gaming companies that got a little bit of success.
It's just funny seeing the hypocrisy in some of the more die-hard gw2 fans. If WoW charges you for something they are "money grubbers" but if anet does it's "they are just doing it because we want it"
I dont understand why everyone is operating under this assumption that the arenanet dev's are somehow decieving everyone about there business model. They didnt say anything that couldnt be used to describe the model used currently for GW1. All they said is that they could look at other things to add for payment if players want them to and people are trying to make it seem like its some "gotcha" moment. Its the same with everyone making claims that they need mountains of money to keep a mmo operational and therefore the b2p business model could not possibly work without extensive cash shop. Meanwhile there are guys out there who are by no means rich who are running there own private mmo emulator servers, hosting hundreds of other players for nothing except there own out of pocket expenses to do so. Am i the only one who see's the logical contradiction with this belief vs. the reality of private servers? Why are we treating Arenanet like they have some credibility issue? Is there some big lie they told that im not aware of? How about instead of looking for flimsy reasons to call them liar's, we wait until they expose themselves as such. Are we such an unreasonable lot that we cant give them the benefit of the doubt? There not even asking for our money yet. Besides if these guys were just a bunch of greedy money grubbing bastards only in it to get our cash, why would they have left blizzard?
In point of fact I believe that the reason they left blizzard was because they didn't believe that games were just a tool to make a profit. I think it had something to do with Blizzard being owned by Vivendi Games.
Yep they left blizzard when WoW went into development and blizzard started selling out for a more profit-turning mentality instead of a "let's build innovative games" mentality they originally had. Which is why it sucks to see anet slowly turn from their philosophy in early gw1 to what they are now where they will provide tons of micro transactions, for what they would like you to believe is strictly for our sake. A lot of people won't have any problem with this, sort of like 12million people don't have major problems with wow. But from an objective point of view it is the metamorphisis of anet into so many other gaming companies that got a little bit of success. It's just funny seeing the hypocrisy in some of the more die-hard gw2 fans. If WoW charges you for something they are "money grubbers" but if anet does it's "they are just doing it because we want it"
Any comparison to a sub based game with a cash shop is moot, while WoW and such games charge you for the box, a monthly sub and then add an item shop on top GW2 is only charging for the box and adding an item/content shop that won't require you to spend money to enjoy the game unless you like pretty things and/or cant be bothered to unlock items in the game.
How do you know it's going to be tonnes of micro transactions on what info do you base that on? Until we get definite info from Anet the only thing we know for sure is going in to the shop is transmutation stones, anything above and beyond that is speculation, put your negative spin on it as much as you want but until I see something worth moaning about I'll keep looking forward to GW2.
I appreciate your campaign to get players not to blindly fall in to the hype but lets be realistic and call them out as dirty capitalist scum only when they prove they are.
I dont understand why everyone is operating under this assumption that the arenanet dev's are somehow decieving everyone about there business model. They didnt say anything that couldnt be used to describe the model used currently for GW1. All they said is that they could look at other things to add for payment if players want them to and people are trying to make it seem like its some "gotcha" moment.
Its the same with everyone making claims that they need mountains of money to keep a mmo operational and therefore the b2p business model could not possibly work without extensive cash shop. Meanwhile there are guys out there who are by no means rich who are running there own private mmo emulator servers, hosting hundreds of other players for nothing except there own out of pocket expenses to do so. Am i the only one who see's the logical contradiction with this belief vs. the reality of private servers?
Why are we treating Arenanet like they have some credibility issue? Is there some big lie they told that im not aware of? How about instead of looking for flimsy reasons to call them liar's, we wait until they expose themselves as such. Are we such an unreasonable lot that we cant give them the benefit of the doubt? There not even asking for our money yet. Besides if these guys were just a bunch of greedy money grubbing bastards only in it to get our cash, why would they have left blizzard?
In point of fact I believe that the reason they left blizzard was because they didn't believe that games were just a tool to make a profit. I think it had something to do with Blizzard being owned by Vivendi Games.
Yep they left blizzard when WoW went into development and blizzard started selling out for a more profit-turning mentality instead of a "let's build innovative games" mentality they originally had.
Which is why it sucks to see anet slowly turn from their philosophy in early gw1 to what they are now where they will provide tons of micro transactions, for what they would like you to believe is strictly for our sake.
A lot of people won't have any problem with this, sort of like 12million people don't have major problems with wow. But from an objective point of view it is the metamorphisis of anet into so many other gaming companies that got a little bit of success.
It's just funny seeing the hypocrisy in some of the more die-hard gw2 fans. If WoW charges you for something they are "money grubbers" but if anet does it's "they are just doing it because we want it"
Any comparison to a sub based game with a cash shop is moot, while WoW and such games charge you for the box, a monthly sub and then add an item shop on top GW2 is only charging for the box and adding an item/content shop that won't require you to spend money to enjoy the game unless you like pretty things and/or cant be bothered to unlock items in the game.
How do you know it's going to be tonnes of micro transactions on what info do you base that on? Until we get definite info from Anet the only thing we know for sure is going in to the shop is transmutation stones, anything above and beyond that is speculation, put your negative spin on it as much as you want but until I see something worth moaning about I'll keep looking forward to GW2.
I appreciate your campaign to get players not to blindly fall in to the hype but lets be realistic and call them out as dirty capitalist scum only when they prove they are.
It's called reading between the lines... By the tone and wording of anet's interviews + their actions, you can understand the direction they are headed. This ties into being experienced and wise with the gaming industry.
I dont understand why everyone is operating under this assumption that the arenanet dev's are somehow decieving everyone about there business model. They didnt say anything that couldnt be used to describe the model used currently for GW1. All they said is that they could look at other things to add for payment if players want them to and people are trying to make it seem like its some "gotcha" moment.
Its the same with everyone making claims that they need mountains of money to keep a mmo operational and therefore the b2p business model could not possibly work without extensive cash shop. Meanwhile there are guys out there who are by no means rich who are running there own private mmo emulator servers, hosting hundreds of other players for nothing except there own out of pocket expenses to do so. Am i the only one who see's the logical contradiction with this belief vs. the reality of private servers?
Why are we treating Arenanet like they have some credibility issue? Is there some big lie they told that im not aware of? How about instead of looking for flimsy reasons to call them liar's, we wait until they expose themselves as such. Are we such an unreasonable lot that we cant give them the benefit of the doubt? There not even asking for our money yet. Besides if these guys were just a bunch of greedy money grubbing bastards only in it to get our cash, why would they have left blizzard?
In point of fact I believe that the reason they left blizzard was because they didn't believe that games were just a tool to make a profit. I think it had something to do with Blizzard being owned by Vivendi Games.
Yep they left blizzard when WoW went into development and blizzard started selling out for a more profit-turning mentality instead of a "let's build innovative games" mentality they originally had.
Which is why it sucks to see anet slowly turn from their philosophy in early gw1 to what they are now where they will provide tons of micro transactions, for what they would like you to believe is strictly for our sake.
A lot of people won't have any problem with this, sort of like 12million people don't have major problems with wow. But from an objective point of view it is the metamorphisis of anet into so many other gaming companies that got a little bit of success.
It's just funny seeing the hypocrisy in some of the more die-hard gw2 fans. If WoW charges you for something they are "money grubbers" but if anet does it's "they are just doing it because we want it"
Ok, this part in red. WTF are you talking about? Where is there tons of micro transactions? This is the exact kind of crap i was reffering to in my post. I have seen no evidence of this anywhere. Instead its more based on people pulling this notion out of there rear that there being less than up front and twisting the dev's words from an interview out of context rather than actually taking a look at what they have all ready done to handle there cash shop in there existing game.
I dont understand why everyone is operating under this assumption that the arenanet dev's are somehow decieving everyone about there business model. They didnt say anything that couldnt be used to describe the model used currently for GW1. All they said is that they could look at other things to add for payment if players want them to and people are trying to make it seem like its some "gotcha" moment.
Its the same with everyone making claims that they need mountains of money to keep a mmo operational and therefore the b2p business model could not possibly work without extensive cash shop. Meanwhile there are guys out there who are by no means rich who are running there own private mmo emulator servers, hosting hundreds of other players for nothing except there own out of pocket expenses to do so. Am i the only one who see's the logical contradiction with this belief vs. the reality of private servers?
Why are we treating Arenanet like they have some credibility issue? Is there some big lie they told that im not aware of? How about instead of looking for flimsy reasons to call them liar's, we wait until they expose themselves as such. Are we such an unreasonable lot that we cant give them the benefit of the doubt? There not even asking for our money yet. Besides if these guys were just a bunch of greedy money grubbing bastards only in it to get our cash, why would they have left blizzard?
In point of fact I believe that the reason they left blizzard was because they didn't believe that games were just a tool to make a profit. I think it had something to do with Blizzard being owned by Vivendi Games.
Yep they left blizzard when WoW went into development and blizzard started selling out for a more profit-turning mentality instead of a "let's build innovative games" mentality they originally had.
Which is why it sucks to see anet slowly turn from their philosophy in early gw1 to what they are now where they will provide tons of micro transactions, for what they would like you to believe is strictly for our sake.
A lot of people won't have any problem with this, sort of like 12million people don't have major problems with wow. But from an objective point of view it is the metamorphisis of anet into so many other gaming companies that got a little bit of success.
It's just funny seeing the hypocrisy in some of the more die-hard gw2 fans. If WoW charges you for something they are "money grubbers" but if anet does it's "they are just doing it because we want it"
Ok, this part in red. WTF are you talking about? Where is there tons of micro transactions? This is the exact kind of crap i was reffering to in my post. I have seen no evidence of this anywhere. Instead its more based on people pulling this notion out of there rear that there being less than up front and twisting the dev's words from an interview out of context rather than actually taking a look at what they have all ready done to handle there cash shop in there existing game.
You can buy character slots, but that's it I think...
Please do not hype any gam.. oh wait, nevermind... forgot what forum I was on.
The micro-transactions are a fact of life in MMOs today, and become more so all the time. You have to drop extra money in WoW, City of Heroes, etc. just to get some of the new good stuff (that used to be free in updates). The fact that subscription based games are charging premiums for add-ons is what is really appalling, because they are getting you from both ends. There are certain levels of greed that have been increasingly leeching into the management of some of the MMOs, and sadly we just take it and fork over the money and keep on playing. The beauty of GW was that you paid up front, for a nicely polished game, and then you played free. The game had to be good to get the initial nod, hook the players, gain the endorsements and word-of-mouth momentum. If they didn't sell enough, they lost their investment in the development of the game. They didn't throw a monthly fee at you to recoup the costs (and rake in massive profits if people kept playing). The shear testicular fortitude it showed to gamble on GW being good enough to earn a profit was always something that impressed me. I can't see them moving that far away from their roots, and the things that made GW successful in the first place.
Face it, even if GW2 has lots of micro-transaction possibilities, who cares? They are running a business, and if they can add little things here and there to optionally enhance the game, more power to them. Now, the key word there is "optionally." If they start adding things that you have to keep forking out money to buy so you can stay effective, or "elite" crap that give unfair advantages to the ones dropping the dough on the game, that's when I'm out. I'm sure many people would make the exodus at that point too. But little cosmetic things, stuff like additional storage or silly pets, that's fine with me. Let them make a little extra money, it will benefit the player base in the long run by keeping a focus on a profitable venture, rather than the developers getting the "well at least we broke even" feeling and concentrating more on other projects. If the game is still profitable, then they'll keep working on major expansions (like they did in GW) to keep adding relevance and content, while never REQUIRING you to keep expanding, if you choose not to.
I dont understand why everyone is operating under this assumption that the arenanet dev's are somehow decieving everyone about there business model. They didnt say anything that couldnt be used to describe the model used currently for GW1. All they said is that they could look at other things to add for payment if players want them to and people are trying to make it seem like its some "gotcha" moment.
Its the same with everyone making claims that they need mountains of money to keep a mmo operational and therefore the b2p business model could not possibly work without extensive cash shop. Meanwhile there are guys out there who are by no means rich who are running there own private mmo emulator servers, hosting hundreds of other players for nothing except there own out of pocket expenses to do so. Am i the only one who see's the logical contradiction with this belief vs. the reality of private servers?
Why are we treating Arenanet like they have some credibility issue? Is there some big lie they told that im not aware of? How about instead of looking for flimsy reasons to call them liar's, we wait until they expose themselves as such. Are we such an unreasonable lot that we cant give them the benefit of the doubt? There not even asking for our money yet. Besides if these guys were just a bunch of greedy money grubbing bastards only in it to get our cash, why would they have left blizzard?
In point of fact I believe that the reason they left blizzard was because they didn't believe that games were just a tool to make a profit. I think it had something to do with Blizzard being owned by Vivendi Games.
Just a tool to make profit? You do realize that one of the main reasons to make these expensive games is to make a ROI for their investors/companies? Of course if thats the ONLY focus, then the game tends to lack many of the aspects that make a game fun (which results in less potential profit...).
But never lose sight of what motivates *investors*. Most of them know little or nothing about games, and are only interested in superior ROI for their money. Games for the sake of games, is in the same area as art for the sake of art... Nice work if you can get it, but most of the time one has to moderate that with focus on the best ROI for a given period.
I dont understand why everyone is operating under this assumption that the arenanet dev's are somehow decieving everyone about there business model. They didnt say anything that couldnt be used to describe the model used currently for GW1. All they said is that they could look at other things to add for payment if players want them to and people are trying to make it seem like its some "gotcha" moment.
Its the same with everyone making claims that they need mountains of money to keep a mmo operational and therefore the b2p business model could not possibly work without extensive cash shop. Meanwhile there are guys out there who are by no means rich who are running there own private mmo emulator servers, hosting hundreds of other players for nothing except there own out of pocket expenses to do so. Am i the only one who see's the logical contradiction with this belief vs. the reality of private servers?
Why are we treating Arenanet like they have some credibility issue? Is there some big lie they told that im not aware of? How about instead of looking for flimsy reasons to call them liar's, we wait until they expose themselves as such. Are we such an unreasonable lot that we cant give them the benefit of the doubt? There not even asking for our money yet. Besides if these guys were just a bunch of greedy money grubbing bastards only in it to get our cash, why would they have left blizzard?
In point of fact I believe that the reason they left blizzard was because they didn't believe that games were just a tool to make a profit. I think it had something to do with Blizzard being owned by Vivendi Games.
Yep they left blizzard when WoW went into development and blizzard started selling out for a more profit-turning mentality instead of a "let's build innovative games" mentality they originally had.
Which is why it sucks to see anet slowly turn from their philosophy in early gw1 to what they are now where they will provide tons of micro transactions, for what they would like you to believe is strictly for our sake.
A lot of people won't have any problem with this, sort of like 12million people don't have major problems with wow. But from an objective point of view it is the metamorphisis of anet into so many other gaming companies that got a little bit of success.
It's just funny seeing the hypocrisy in some of the more die-hard gw2 fans. If WoW charges you for something they are "money grubbers" but if anet does it's "they are just doing it because we want it"
Ok, this part in red. WTF are you talking about? Where is there tons of micro transactions? This is the exact kind of crap i was reffering to in my post. I have seen no evidence of this anywhere. Instead its more based on people pulling this notion out of there rear that there being less than up front and twisting the dev's words from an interview out of context rather than actually taking a look at what they have all ready done to handle there cash shop in there existing game.
Are you saying they aren't going to have a lot of micro transactions in GW2? Cause all evidence points to them having lots of things available in cash shops, for example transmutation stones.
Ok, this part in red. WTF are you talking about? Where is there tons of micro transactions? This is the exact kind of crap i was reffering to in my post. I have seen no evidence of this anywhere. Instead its more based on people pulling this notion out of there rear that there being less than up front and twisting the dev's words from an interview out of context rather than actually taking a look at what they have all ready done to handle there cash shop in there existing game.
Are you saying they aren't going to have a lot of micro transactions in GW2? Cause all evidence points to them having lots of things available in cash shops, for example transmutation stones.
I'm sure they'll have plenty of stuff... they already do in GW1. Extra storage slots, possibly extra character slots, things like that that don't affect gameplay. T-stones, cosmetic items. Possible DLC dungeon packs... jury is out on that one at the moment, but if they do they'll have one shot to do it right (good content for what the majority sees as a fair price) or it'll never sell again. You can already buy the expansions in the online store, I expect that to stay the same. Costumes, maybe holiday items and toys, things of this nature.
I agree that it's a bit different from way back in early Prophecies where there was no store. But... it hasn't (so far) proven to be a bad thing. What was the first thing they put in the store... iirc it was the character slots, was it not?
They're putting so much effort into not being 'just another MMO' that I suspect anything that goes in the store is being well thought through with regards to them keeping their word regarding how the store will (not) affect gameplay.
Ok, this part in red. WTF are you talking about? Where is there tons of micro transactions? This is the exact kind of crap i was reffering to in my post. I have seen no evidence of this anywhere. Instead its more based on people pulling this notion out of there rear that there being less than up front and twisting the dev's words from an interview out of context rather than actually taking a look at what they have all ready done to handle there cash shop in there existing game.
Are you saying they aren't going to have a lot of micro transactions in GW2? Cause all evidence points to them having lots of things available in cash shops, for example transmutation stones.
I'm sure they'll have plenty of stuff... they already do in GW1. Extra storage slots, possibly extra character slots, things like that that don't affect gameplay. T-stones, cosmetic items. Possible DLC dungeon packs... jury is out on that one at the moment, but if they do they'll have one shot to do it right (good content for what the majority sees as a fair price) or it'll never sell again. You can already buy the expansions in the online store, I expect that to stay the same. Costumes, maybe holiday items and toys, things of this nature.
I agree that it's a bit different from way back in early Prophecies where there was no store. But... it hasn't (so far) proven to be a bad thing. What was the first thing they put in the store... iirc it was the character slots, was it not?
They're putting so much effort into not being 'just another MMO' that I suspect anything that goes in the store is being well thought through with regards to them keeping their word regarding how the store will (not) affect gameplay.
According to that last interview they are no longer directly saying they will only have stuff that will not affect gameplay or give players an in-game advantage, they have now adopted the idea that "we won't make the game so difficult that you are forced to buy the stuff in the store" which is a completely different mentality, and is evasive.
I believe ArenaNet will make good on their mmo with B2P. They know how to sell stuff in the cash shop without breaking the game and still have loads of fun. Besides they do have surveys in which the community provides ample feedback for them to find out what sells and won't sell.
I believe ArenaNet will make good on their mmo with B2P. They know how to sell stuff in the cash shop without breaking the game and still have loads of fun. Besides they do have surveys in which the community provides ample feedback for them to find out what sells and won't sell.
Do you mean B&MT2P? (Buy & Micro-Transaction to Play)
Ok, this part in red. WTF are you talking about? Where is there tons of micro transactions? This is the exact kind of crap i was reffering to in my post. I have seen no evidence of this anywhere. Instead its more based on people pulling this notion out of there rear that there being less than up front and twisting the dev's words from an interview out of context rather than actually taking a look at what they have all ready done to handle there cash shop in there existing game.
Are you saying they aren't going to have a lot of micro transactions in GW2? Cause all evidence points to them having lots of things available in cash shops, for example transmutation stones.
I'm sure they'll have plenty of stuff... they already do in GW1. Extra storage slots, possibly extra character slots, things like that that don't affect gameplay. T-stones, cosmetic items. Possible DLC dungeon packs... jury is out on that one at the moment, but if they do they'll have one shot to do it right (good content for what the majority sees as a fair price) or it'll never sell again. You can already buy the expansions in the online store, I expect that to stay the same. Costumes, maybe holiday items and toys, things of this nature.
I agree that it's a bit different from way back in early Prophecies where there was no store. But... it hasn't (so far) proven to be a bad thing. What was the first thing they put in the store... iirc it was the character slots, was it not?
They're putting so much effort into not being 'just another MMO' that I suspect anything that goes in the store is being well thought through with regards to them keeping their word regarding how the store will (not) affect gameplay.
Lets just clear up what Guild Wars has in it's store so there are no more questions about it.
I believe ArenaNet will make good on their mmo with B2P. They know how to sell stuff in the cash shop without breaking the game and still have loads of fun. Besides they do have surveys in which the community provides ample feedback for them to find out what sells and won't sell.
Do you mean B&MT2P? (Buy & Micro-Transaction to Play)
Wow... over the course of all these GW2 payment threads you (Robert) have gone from a man with a strong opinion to nothing more than an Internet troll; randomly appearing to stir-up a sh*t storm. And the sad thing is... you will buy this game. You keep debasing the game that's yet to release and the developers that are hard at work trying to make a game we would buy. So feel free to continue throwing your dung in the forums and here's hoping that I'll never meet you in the game.
I haven't read anything but I think the poster haven't played GW1... GW1 got just Expensions! Adding more classes + Content everytime... You can buy some minor things now but at the beggining it was only about releasing full-featured expensions, without P2P.
Halloween Costume Pack - An assortment of single costumes. This shows that they will likely have seasonal things in GW2 cash shop.
Extra Storage
Extra Character slots
Makeover Pack
Extreme Makeover
Character Name Change
Pet Unlock Pack
PvP item unlock pack
Various skill unlock packs
When I started (4 years ago in a few weeks) they only had the PvP skill unlock pack.
But I don't see any of this as a problem. I don't actually see XP pots as a problem either, you can as well get help to powerlevel by your max level friends, that will speed up things a lot more than a pot. And if someone levels fast it does not affect game balance, the same guy getting really good gear without working for it however does just that.
Fluff is fluff. Name changes are not something that should be taken lightly but it is not a gamebreaker. Extra storages and more character slots are nice to have but it is ok that you have to pay for it.
And adventure packs is just like a payed mini expansions, EQ2 did the same a few years ago.
I don't have any problem with this. Selling items with stats or lose dungeons however is not good. And a single dungeon is no mini expansion BTW.
Halloween Costume Pack - An assortment of single costumes. This shows that they will likely have seasonal things in GW2 cash shop.
Extra Storage
Extra Character slots
Makeover Pack
Extreme Makeover
Character Name Change
Pet Unlock Pack
PvP item unlock pack
Various skill unlock packs
When I started (4 years ago in a few weeks) they only had the PvP skill unlock pack.
But I don't see any of this as a problem. I don't actually see XP pots as a problem either, you can as well get help to powerlevel by your max level friends, that will speed up things a lot more than a pot. And if someone levels fast it does not affect game balance, the same guy getting really good gear without working for it however does just that.
But remember, leveling in GW2 actually looks like it will be FUN. That in itself is a major part of the game that most players will want to experience. I anticipate hitting max level with one character, then immediately going back to level another class.
Also, the systems in GW2 look like they will reduce your level if you attempt to participate in a lower level event or dungeon. I don't believe it will require you to equip lower level gear (a la FFXI for example), but it will reduce your stats (and those of your gear) and possibly remove your higher level abilities. So "power leveling" won't exist as strongly in GW2 as most MMOs.
I dont understand why everyone is operating under this assumption that the arenanet dev's are somehow decieving everyone about there business model. They didnt say anything that couldnt be used to describe the model used currently for GW1. All they said is that they could look at other things to add for payment if players want them to and people are trying to make it seem like its some "gotcha" moment.
Its the same with everyone making claims that they need mountains of money to keep a mmo operational and therefore the b2p business model could not possibly work without extensive cash shop. Meanwhile there are guys out there who are by no means rich who are running there own private mmo emulator servers, hosting hundreds of other players for nothing except there own out of pocket expenses to do so. Am i the only one who see's the logical contradiction with this belief vs. the reality of private servers?
Why are we treating Arenanet like they have some credibility issue? Is there some big lie they told that im not aware of? How about instead of looking for flimsy reasons to call them liar's, we wait until they expose themselves as such. Are we such an unreasonable lot that we cant give them the benefit of the doubt? There not even asking for our money yet. Besides if these guys were just a bunch of greedy money grubbing bastards only in it to get our cash, why would they have left blizzard?
In point of fact I believe that the reason they left blizzard was because they didn't believe that games were just a tool to make a profit. I think it had something to do with Blizzard being owned by Vivendi Games.
Yep they left blizzard when WoW went into development and blizzard started selling out for a more profit-turning mentality instead of a "let's build innovative games" mentality they originally had.
Which is why it sucks to see anet slowly turn from their philosophy in early gw1 to what they are now where they will provide tons of micro transactions, for what they would like you to believe is strictly for our sake.
A lot of people won't have any problem with this, sort of like 12million people don't have major problems with wow. But from an objective point of view it is the metamorphisis of anet into so many other gaming companies that got a little bit of success.
It's just funny seeing the hypocrisy in some of the more die-hard gw2 fans. If WoW charges you for something they are "money grubbers" but if anet does it's "they are just doing it because we want it"
Ok, this part in red. WTF are you talking about? Where is there tons of micro transactions? This is the exact kind of crap i was reffering to in my post. I have seen no evidence of this anywhere. Instead its more based on people pulling this notion out of there rear that there being less than up front and twisting the dev's words from an interview out of context rather than actually taking a look at what they have all ready done to handle there cash shop in there existing game.
Just off the top of my head, so far developers have mentioned additional character slots, transmutation stones (to be purchased each time you wish to combine pieces of gear), and account-bound dye colors for their awesome dye system. They have also toyed with the idea of XP boosts, and future access to new zones, new events, new dungeons and new story content. They basically confirmed that they intend to charge players for "whatever they want the most" as far as adding post-release content goes (as downloadable content). And, of course, expansion packs (aka giant content patches) must be purchased.
That's just off the top of my head based on reading some of the info released by GW2 devs. I'm sure there's more I haven't read or have missed.
Comments
ya, what he said.
played and deleted/sold: SWG / Planetside / AoC / EQ / EQ2 / WoW / STO / AC
still playing : Guild Wars 1
Yep that's my beef with it all, I don't care how any mmo dev tries to turn a profit, because I have yet to encounter a good mmo that hit my wallet harshly. I do however dislike how deceptive anet is with their interviews at times.
I also don't agree that subscription fees are a free ride and allow companies to be lazy, the best sub-based mmos never died out because they did not get lazy, they felt obligated to provide more content because their customers were paying, and why not, it gives them continued subscribers. A happy subscriber is a paying subscriber.
Anyway yea it would be nicer if anet was a bit more honest with their decisions, instead of going "you know what kiddo? we are doing this awesome concept all for you!!!!"
Luckily subscription mmos still completely dominate the mmo market.
What ever happend to playing a game because you like it...not because you are forced to play it.
March on! - Lets Invade Pekopon
Yep. When I don't like the game anymore, I stop paying for it. Hence I stopped playing wow. What's your point?
From what you said in the original quote it sounded like the only reason people play an mmorpg is because paying the sub makes them play.
March on! - Lets Invade Pekopon
I dont understand why everyone is operating under this assumption that the arenanet dev's are somehow decieving everyone about there business model. They didnt say anything that couldnt be used to describe the model used currently for GW1. All they said is that they could look at other things to add for payment if players want them to and people are trying to make it seem like its some "gotcha" moment.
Its the same with everyone making claims that they need mountains of money to keep a mmo operational and therefore the b2p business model could not possibly work without extensive cash shop. Meanwhile there are guys out there who are by no means rich who are running there own private mmo emulator servers, hosting hundreds of other players for nothing except there own out of pocket expenses to do so. Am i the only one who see's the logical contradiction with this belief vs. the reality of private servers?
Why are we treating Arenanet like they have some credibility issue? Is there some big lie they told that im not aware of? How about instead of looking for flimsy reasons to call them liar's, we wait until they expose themselves as such. Are we such an unreasonable lot that we cant give them the benefit of the doubt? There not even asking for our money yet. Besides if these guys were just a bunch of greedy money grubbing bastards only in it to get our cash, why would they have left blizzard?
In point of fact I believe that the reason they left blizzard was because they didn't believe that games were just a tool to make a profit. I think it had something to do with Blizzard being owned by Vivendi Games.
I used to TL;DR, but then I took a bullet point to the footnote.
Yep they left blizzard when WoW went into development and blizzard started selling out for a more profit-turning mentality instead of a "let's build innovative games" mentality they originally had.
Which is why it sucks to see anet slowly turn from their philosophy in early gw1 to what they are now where they will provide tons of micro transactions, for what they would like you to believe is strictly for our sake.
A lot of people won't have any problem with this, sort of like 12million people don't have major problems with wow. But from an objective point of view it is the metamorphisis of anet into so many other gaming companies that got a little bit of success.
It's just funny seeing the hypocrisy in some of the more die-hard gw2 fans. If WoW charges you for something they are "money grubbers" but if anet does it's "they are just doing it because we want it"
Any comparison to a sub based game with a cash shop is moot, while WoW and such games charge you for the box, a monthly sub and then add an item shop on top GW2 is only charging for the box and adding an item/content shop that won't require you to spend money to enjoy the game unless you like pretty things and/or cant be bothered to unlock items in the game.
How do you know it's going to be tonnes of micro transactions on what info do you base that on? Until we get definite info from Anet the only thing we know for sure is going in to the shop is transmutation stones, anything above and beyond that is speculation, put your negative spin on it as much as you want but until I see something worth moaning about I'll keep looking forward to GW2.
I appreciate your campaign to get players not to blindly fall in to the hype but lets be realistic and call them out as dirty capitalist scum only when they prove they are.
It's called reading between the lines... By the tone and wording of anet's interviews + their actions, you can understand the direction they are headed. This ties into being experienced and wise with the gaming industry.
Ok, this part in red. WTF are you talking about? Where is there tons of micro transactions? This is the exact kind of crap i was reffering to in my post. I have seen no evidence of this anywhere. Instead its more based on people pulling this notion out of there rear that there being less than up front and twisting the dev's words from an interview out of context rather than actually taking a look at what they have all ready done to handle there cash shop in there existing game.
You can buy character slots, but that's it I think...
Please do not hype any gam.. oh wait, nevermind... forgot what forum I was on.
The micro-transactions are a fact of life in MMOs today, and become more so all the time. You have to drop extra money in WoW, City of Heroes, etc. just to get some of the new good stuff (that used to be free in updates). The fact that subscription based games are charging premiums for add-ons is what is really appalling, because they are getting you from both ends. There are certain levels of greed that have been increasingly leeching into the management of some of the MMOs, and sadly we just take it and fork over the money and keep on playing. The beauty of GW was that you paid up front, for a nicely polished game, and then you played free. The game had to be good to get the initial nod, hook the players, gain the endorsements and word-of-mouth momentum. If they didn't sell enough, they lost their investment in the development of the game. They didn't throw a monthly fee at you to recoup the costs (and rake in massive profits if people kept playing). The shear testicular fortitude it showed to gamble on GW being good enough to earn a profit was always something that impressed me. I can't see them moving that far away from their roots, and the things that made GW successful in the first place.
Face it, even if GW2 has lots of micro-transaction possibilities, who cares? They are running a business, and if they can add little things here and there to optionally enhance the game, more power to them. Now, the key word there is "optionally." If they start adding things that you have to keep forking out money to buy so you can stay effective, or "elite" crap that give unfair advantages to the ones dropping the dough on the game, that's when I'm out. I'm sure many people would make the exodus at that point too. But little cosmetic things, stuff like additional storage or silly pets, that's fine with me. Let them make a little extra money, it will benefit the player base in the long run by keeping a focus on a profitable venture, rather than the developers getting the "well at least we broke even" feeling and concentrating more on other projects. If the game is still profitable, then they'll keep working on major expansions (like they did in GW) to keep adding relevance and content, while never REQUIRING you to keep expanding, if you choose not to.
Sig? I don't need no stinking sig!
Just a tool to make profit? You do realize that one of the main reasons to make these expensive games is to make a ROI for their investors/companies? Of course if thats the ONLY focus, then the game tends to lack many of the aspects that make a game fun (which results in less potential profit...).
But never lose sight of what motivates *investors*. Most of them know little or nothing about games, and are only interested in superior ROI for their money. Games for the sake of games, is in the same area as art for the sake of art... Nice work if you can get it, but most of the time one has to moderate that with focus on the best ROI for a given period.
Are you saying they aren't going to have a lot of micro transactions in GW2? Cause all evidence points to them having lots of things available in cash shops, for example transmutation stones.
I'm sure they'll have plenty of stuff... they already do in GW1. Extra storage slots, possibly extra character slots, things like that that don't affect gameplay. T-stones, cosmetic items. Possible DLC dungeon packs... jury is out on that one at the moment, but if they do they'll have one shot to do it right (good content for what the majority sees as a fair price) or it'll never sell again. You can already buy the expansions in the online store, I expect that to stay the same. Costumes, maybe holiday items and toys, things of this nature.
I agree that it's a bit different from way back in early Prophecies where there was no store. But... it hasn't (so far) proven to be a bad thing. What was the first thing they put in the store... iirc it was the character slots, was it not?
They're putting so much effort into not being 'just another MMO' that I suspect anything that goes in the store is being well thought through with regards to them keeping their word regarding how the store will (not) affect gameplay.
Oderint, dum metuant.
According to that last interview they are no longer directly saying they will only have stuff that will not affect gameplay or give players an in-game advantage, they have now adopted the idea that "we won't make the game so difficult that you are forced to buy the stuff in the store" which is a completely different mentality, and is evasive.
I believe ArenaNet will make good on their mmo with B2P. They know how to sell stuff in the cash shop without breaking the game and still have loads of fun. Besides they do have surveys in which the community provides ample feedback for them to find out what sells and won't sell.
Do you mean B&MT2P? (Buy & Micro-Transaction to Play)
Lets just clear up what Guild Wars has in it's store so there are no more questions about it.
https://secure.ncsoft.com/cgi-bin/Store.pl?dnv=1772372908&action=toggleCategory&category=4
Bonus Mission Pack
PvP Access Kit
Game of the Year Upgrade
2008 Upgrade
Halloween Costume Pack - An assortment of single costumes. This shows that they will likely have seasonal things in GW2 cash shop.
Extra Storage
Extra Character slots
Makeover Pack
Extreme Makeover
Character Name Change
Pet Unlock Pack
PvP item unlock pack
Various skill unlock packs
Wow... over the course of all these GW2 payment threads you (Robert) have gone from a man with a strong opinion to nothing more than an Internet troll; randomly appearing to stir-up a sh*t storm. And the sad thing is... you will buy this game. You keep debasing the game that's yet to release and the developers that are hard at work trying to make a game we would buy. So feel free to continue throwing your dung in the forums and here's hoping that I'll never meet you in the game.
I haven't read anything but I think the poster haven't played GW1... GW1 got just Expensions! Adding more classes + Content everytime... You can buy some minor things now but at the beggining it was only about releasing full-featured expensions, without P2P.
When I started (4 years ago in a few weeks) they only had the PvP skill unlock pack.
But I don't see any of this as a problem. I don't actually see XP pots as a problem either, you can as well get help to powerlevel by your max level friends, that will speed up things a lot more than a pot. And if someone levels fast it does not affect game balance, the same guy getting really good gear without working for it however does just that.
Fluff is fluff. Name changes are not something that should be taken lightly but it is not a gamebreaker. Extra storages and more character slots are nice to have but it is ok that you have to pay for it.
And adventure packs is just like a payed mini expansions, EQ2 did the same a few years ago.
I don't have any problem with this. Selling items with stats or lose dungeons however is not good. And a single dungeon is no mini expansion BTW.
But remember, leveling in GW2 actually looks like it will be FUN. That in itself is a major part of the game that most players will want to experience. I anticipate hitting max level with one character, then immediately going back to level another class.
Also, the systems in GW2 look like they will reduce your level if you attempt to participate in a lower level event or dungeon. I don't believe it will require you to equip lower level gear (a la FFXI for example), but it will reduce your stats (and those of your gear) and possibly remove your higher level abilities. So "power leveling" won't exist as strongly in GW2 as most MMOs.
Just off the top of my head, so far developers have mentioned additional character slots, transmutation stones (to be purchased each time you wish to combine pieces of gear), and account-bound dye colors for their awesome dye system. They have also toyed with the idea of XP boosts, and future access to new zones, new events, new dungeons and new story content. They basically confirmed that they intend to charge players for "whatever they want the most" as far as adding post-release content goes (as downloadable content). And, of course, expansion packs (aka giant content patches) must be purchased.
That's just off the top of my head based on reading some of the info released by GW2 devs. I'm sure there's more I haven't read or have missed.
Guild Wars 2 post-release content plans.