The problem with trying to go the "realistic" route is that the graphics look dated very fast. With MMOs this matters more than other game types because your supposed to be playing them for years, not months / weeks.
This is the actual reason why Bioware choose this, they want their game to have longevity, and while it might not per take to your taste its for the betterment of the whole to make the game have a more cartoonish look.
Dewee, why you keep repeating over and over that art style doesn't fit with lore? It has been said several times that his isn't George Lucas Star Wars, this is OLD REPUBLIC. Hell fashion in here, earth, changes every 10 years, you don't think that it would change in SW galaxy after 3,500 years?!? Perhaps back then people were much more individual than George Lucas clone universe where choice of color seems to be grey or grey.
The problem with trying to go the "realistic" route is that the graphics look dated very fast. With MMOs this matters more than other game types because your supposed to be playing them for years, not months / weeks.
This is the actual reason why Bioware choose this, they want their game to have longevity, and while it might not per take to your taste its for the betterment of the whole to make the game have a more cartoonish look.
Look fashion magazines and read fashion history, it's full of crazy looking things. The fact that most people dress plantly and boring has more to do with social culture, we don't pay so much attention on detailed dressing. And current fashion is much more about simplicity than lets say back in 80's. Last thing I would want to play is game designed by people who all think black is only suitable color for clothes.
Dewee, why you keep repeating over and over that art style doesn't fit with lore? It has been said several times that his isn't George Lucas Star Wars, this is OLD REPUBLIC. Hell fashion in here, earth, changes every 10 years, you don't think that it would change in SW galaxy after 3,500 years?!? Perhaps back then people were much more individual than George Lucas clone universe where choice of color seems to be grey or grey.
A very valid point.
While I'm aware of the pointed ears Sith Purebloods and some SW characters that have spiked armors, in the canonical lore, some of us weren't expecting a SW game putting such an emphasis on these features.
By extend would they make a SW game based on the stone age time, I guess very few SW fans would be interested by it. However one could say the same thing as you and it would make sense.
Once again it's a matter of taste, some will love the graphics and some won't.
The graphics are fine regardless of taste. This is a topic that has been flogged to death for some reason, not sure if a type of clutching at the last straw as some say.
The time and effort that Bioware have put into the detail is starting to make the vocal minority look a tad foolish.
ROLL on RELEASE,
________________________________________________________ Sorcery must persist, the future is the Citadel
not sure if a type of clutching at the last straw as some say.
Certainly not, you are right. I don't get why some are saying this. For some other companies, it can be logic but BioWare?
The time and effort that Bioware have put into the detail is starting to make the vocal minority look a tad foolish.
TOR started in dec 2005 and most analysts agree on the budget is around $100 millions. Now for comparison TabulaRasa development lasted 6 years with a budget of $105 millions.
I prefer a million times a fluid frame rate in any situation with SWTOR graphics than stuttering with more realistic graphics.
Rift has more realistic graphics then most MMO's out and with 450+ players and 100+ mobs raoming in the same area of the zone and there was no lag or stuttering with 20-30 fps.
40-50fps when not crowded with a 250gts...
"It would be awesome if you could duel your companion. Then you could solo pvp".--Thanes
I prefer a million times a fluid frame rate in any situation with SWTOR graphics than stuttering with more realistic graphics.
Rift has more realistic graphics then most MMO's out and with 450+ players and 100+ mobs raoming in the same area of the zone and there was no lag or stuttering with 20-30 fps.
40-50fps when not crowded with a 250gts...
Wait... i read in Rift forums that the games was having a lot of problems with frame rate. That decided me to not try it...
I prefer a million times a fluid frame rate in any situation with SWTOR graphics than stuttering with more realistic graphics.
Rift has more realistic graphics then most MMO's out and with 450+ players and 100+ mobs raoming in the same area of the zone and there was no lag or stuttering with 20-30 fps.
40-50fps when not crowded with a 250gts...
Wait... i read in Rift forums that the games was having a lot of problems with frame rate. That decided me to not try it...
Beta1 yes beta4 no... Trion is just running debug software.. I've played all 4 betas and the beta1 had issues was only getting 15-20 fps in crowds.. By beta4 i get 35-40 fps during Raid events and 45-50 out questing solo..
Trion just needed to tweek a few this during beta events but the fps is a non issue unless you try to run ultra settings with a 8800gt..
Only complaints you will see about fps now is people trying to get way to much out of there low end vid cards, if they just except running the game at medium to high settings they would be fine..
Or just upgrade to a newer vid card and run ultra settings with shadows and get 50-60 fps np..
I run a 250gts on high settings and get 40-50fps and the graphics look beautiful....
"It would be awesome if you could duel your companion. Then you could solo pvp".--Thanes
I prefer a million times a fluid frame rate in any situation with SWTOR graphics than stuttering with more realistic graphics.
Rift has more realistic graphics then most MMO's out and with 450+ players and 100+ mobs raoming in the same area of the zone and there was no lag or stuttering with 20-30 fps.
40-50fps when not crowded with a 250gts...
Wait... i read in Rift forums that the games was having a lot of problems with frame rate. That decided me to not try it...
TBH your going to get that with any MMO.
People with older computers or unoptimized systems blame the games they play instead of the real problem.
I prefer a million times a fluid frame rate in any situation with SWTOR graphics than stuttering with more realistic graphics.
Rift has more realistic graphics then most MMO's out and with 450+ players and 100+ mobs raoming in the same area of the zone and there was no lag or stuttering with 20-30 fps.
40-50fps when not crowded with a 250gts...
Wait... i read in Rift forums that the games was having a lot of problems with frame rate. That decided me to not try it...
TBH your going to get that with any MMO.
People with older computers or unoptimized systems blame the games they play instead of the real problem.
Guys this is all so subjective. I have a VIP pass with Rift and I was disappointed with the graphics. Yes, the FPS improved a little, but they were not at all impressive to me where I felt like I wanted to explore. It really is more of a matter of taste more than anything and just how much they address the fine details and the technical nature of the graphics choice (e.g. Antiliasing, shadows, bloom, etc). Lord of the Rings Online was one of the few games that I was like wow, that is really pretty in some spots, like when I saw the House of Elron for the first time and how perfect they did the reflections on the marble.
I prefer a million times a fluid frame rate in any situation with SWTOR graphics than stuttering with more realistic graphics.
Rift has more realistic graphics then most MMO's out and with 450+ players and 100+ mobs raoming in the same area of the zone and there was no lag or stuttering with 20-30 fps.
40-50fps when not crowded with a 250gts...
Wait... i read in Rift forums that the games was having a lot of problems with frame rate. That decided me to not try it...
TBH your going to get that with any MMO.
People with older computers or unoptimized systems blame the games they play instead of the real problem.
Guys this is all so subjective. I have a VIP pass with Rift and I was disappointed with the graphics. Yes, the FPS improved a little, but they were not at all impressive to me where I felt like I wanted to explore. It really is more of a matter of taste more than anything and just how much they address the fine details and the technical nature of the graphics choice (e.g. Antiliasing, shadows, bloom, etc). Lord of the Rings Online was one of the few games that I was like wow, that is really pretty in some spots, like when I saw the House of Elron for the first time and how perfect they did the reflections on the marble.
True.
I haven't had an mmo blow me away with graphics since AoC. That didn't do much to help the game either. You had half the people that bought it be unable to play it.
So I think MMO's have to forget about graphics in order to remain accessable to the largest possible audience. It sucks for people that can afford better systems, but it would hurt a companies bottom line too much.
I'm kinda funny this way. I actually like that the graphics aren't super realistic. That way it doesn't feel like every other game i've played. I get tired of dreary dark realistic worlds that always look like the world is coming to an end (looking at you rift). Theres nothing wrong with realistic worlds but when 95% of the games go with a realistic look (rift, FE, Lotro, EQ1 and 2, final fantasy 14 just for example) and you get one that looks different, its a breath of fresh air.
These graphics feel far enough away from anything i've played that they actually look more interesting to look at. Plus i look at other little things that make me giggle. Granted in super realistic games the graphics look nice but the combat gets boring and looks unrealistic in the fact that you aren't really blocking attacks. Not true here.
Which ever the case may be. The graphics look darn good to me, well enough to play it and be just fine, and that is probably ToRs only weak point, if it's a weak point at all. Everything else looks great (story, quests, worlds, crafting, companions)
To finally bring my point home. I think over the last few years we have easily step from the graphics actually being bad (which was the point of this topic) to being good enough that it's now just peoples tastes if they don't like it. But i feel i can be bold enough to say. The graphics do not sux.
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.
not sure if a type of clutching at the last straw as some say.
Certainly not, you are right. I don't get why some are saying this. For some other companies, it can be logic but BioWare?
The time and effort that Bioware have put into the detail is starting to make the vocal minority look a tad foolish.
TOR started in dec 2005 and most analysts agree on the budget is around $100 millions. Now for comparison TabulaRasa development lasted 6 years with a budget of $105 millions.
ROLL on RELEASE,
The dev costs will be easily recovered, if this is a value for money discussion then fine but it isn't.
I care little for what they spend , but what I do know is my Bioware experiences have always been great value and professionally done. So I am struggling to accept they will fail to deliver on Graphics especially baed on what I am seeing.
________________________________________________________ Sorcery must persist, the future is the Citadel
not sure if a type of clutching at the last straw as some say.
Certainly not, you are right. I don't get why some are saying this. For some other companies, it can be logic but BioWare?
The time and effort that Bioware have put into the detail is starting to make the vocal minority look a tad foolish.
TOR started in dec 2005 and most analysts agree on the budget is around $100 millions. Now for comparison TabulaRasa development lasted 6 years with a budget of $105 millions.
ROLL on RELEASE,
The dev costs will be easily recovered, if this is a value for money discussion then fine but it isn't.
I care little for what they spend , but what I do know is my Bioware experiences have always been great value and professionally done. So I am struggling to accept they will fail to deliver on Graphics especially baed on what I am seeing.
First you are saying the vocal minority will look a tad foolish considering how much effort was put into TOR then you don't care how much they spend. There's something that does't work in your logic. In our economy system employees effort = $$$.
I'm kinda funny this way. I actually like that the graphics aren't super realistic. That way it doesn't feel like every other game i've played. I get tired of dreary dark realistic worlds that always look like the world is coming to an end (looking at you rift). Theres nothing wrong with realistic worlds but when 95% of the games go with a realistic look (rift, FE, Lotro, EQ1 and 2, final fantasy 14 just for example) and you get one that looks different, its a breath of fresh air.
These graphics feel far enough away from anything i've played that they actually look more interesting to look at. Plus i look at other little things that make me giggle. Granted in super realistic games the graphics look nice but the combat gets boring and looks unrealistic in the fact that you aren't really blocking attacks. Not true here.
Which ever the case may be. The graphics look darn good to me, well enough to play it and be just fine, and that is probably ToRs only weak point, if it's a weak point at all. Everything else looks great (story, quests, worlds, crafting, companions)
To finally bring my point home. I think over the last few years we have easily step from the graphics actually being bad (which was the point of this topic) to being good enough that it's now just peoples tastes if they don't like it. But i feel i can be bold enough to say. The graphics do not sux.
I would of prefered more realistic high-tech graphics, but I understand Biowares logic.
BIOWARE SAID:
The stylised look is certainly intentional. Genndy is a huge talent. Our Jedi knight outfits are directly inspired by Obi Wan from the animated Clone Wars series. We're huge fans. Very early we decided we needed to go stylised for two big reasons: one, it's always important that when you see a screenshot, you can tell what the game is. You make some sort of statement. Two: there's nothing worse than going super high-res and high tech on a game that's supposed to be played for years. Because nothing ages faster and looks dumber than something that was cool and high-tech two years ago. When you're going for a market share this big, the technology has to scale all the way up and down, and do it well, so that it looks like the same game on any PC. It's not OK for you to run it on a different machine and for it to look like a different graphics engine.
I dont like the clone wars graphics and I think it will kill immersion if your having a romantic conversation with a cartoon.
However, I think Bioware has been improving these graphics, and have added detail. They also are trying to go for a "painters detailed art" type look that is unique. I have a feeling they will improve the graphics even further.
Regardless, theres too much to like about the game, for me, to simply shun it because of the graphics direction.
Its improving.
BIOWARE says....
All the major systems are in place now, which means art is going up by amazing milestones every time we hit a new build. All the art's coming in – this is a huge content game. It takes a tonne of time. We have more outfits, more species, more stuff than any other game would ever attempt. We're also starting to get the loot in, the gear and the equipment. We've got eight classes with all their different class stories, so it's not OK if by level 20 your trooper doesn't look like a trooper or your bounty hunter doesn't look like a bounty hunter, and instead it looks like everybody got drunk and went to the thrift store. That means we had to do more class specific art just for one class than many games would attempt in their entirety.
Lets look at the Background of these pictures for a second. Ignore the models for now.
CHeck out the rain, its varried and at a slight angle. Examine carefully the various fawna, and plants. They are so different! Check out the pattern of the tree bark. No, and most impressive to me, look at the rock face. You may not realise this at first glance, but the pattern is all DIFFERENT. most wall patterns in MMOs repeat the texture. TOR hand places and hand crafts everything!
Look at the red rock face. The height and markings and angles of the rock wall are all different. Not one repeated rock! THIS is whats AMAZING!
Above look at the light source behind the thinly scattered clouds.
Below, look at the slightly uneven ground, look at he markings on the walls. All unique.
Again, the dirt. The dips and cracks look different. The clouds......how do they draw that stuff? Its thin in some spots like in real life.
Notice the different curvature of the trees, and the various plant life.
I completely agree with your comments on the background Calibanvov. Very good looking all around and not 2 dimensional branches on the trees either like WoW has. That alone really impressed me. I am also having a hard time understanding how people can say the character models look like Clone Wars. The problem with that statement is that the character models in Clone Wars is all about hard lines and angles, while the character models in TOR is about curves. Completely different styles.
"If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"
I think the graphics look great. But then again, graphics don't make a game. I am currently enjoying The Quest on the ipod touch, and those graphics look like their from 92. But then again it's probably one of the most engaging games I have played. If it plays good, has nice systems in the game, and enough content to last a while, I'm sure it will be a very good game. Even if it doesn't have graphics from the newest engines, or even graphics from last years titles. Who cares. If you prefer graphics over gameplay, then you shouldn't be playing games, you should be watching movies, CG movies.
Comments
The problem with trying to go the "realistic" route is that the graphics look dated very fast. With MMOs this matters more than other game types because your supposed to be playing them for years, not months / weeks.
This is the actual reason why Bioware choose this, they want their game to have longevity, and while it might not per take to your taste its for the betterment of the whole to make the game have a more cartoonish look.
Dewee, why you keep repeating over and over that art style doesn't fit with lore? It has been said several times that his isn't George Lucas Star Wars, this is OLD REPUBLIC. Hell fashion in here, earth, changes every 10 years, you don't think that it would change in SW galaxy after 3,500 years?!? Perhaps back then people were much more individual than George Lucas clone universe where choice of color seems to be grey or grey.
Yes, if you try to make the game for the iPad audience, you need to hide the crappy graphics behind "stylized" art style that either works or doesn't.
Look fashion magazines and read fashion history, it's full of crazy looking things. The fact that most people dress plantly and boring has more to do with social culture, we don't pay so much attention on detailed dressing. And current fashion is much more about simplicity than lets say back in 80's. Last thing I would want to play is game designed by people who all think black is only suitable color for clothes.
this is 100% subjective and to be honest stupid to argue, only posint in case some one reads look at pics and vids and judge for your self.
A very valid point.
While I'm aware of the pointed ears Sith Purebloods and some SW characters that have spiked armors, in the canonical lore, some of us weren't expecting a SW game putting such an emphasis on these features.
By extend would they make a SW game based on the stone age time, I guess very few SW fans would be interested by it. However one could say the same thing as you and it would make sense.
Once again it's a matter of taste, some will love the graphics and some won't.
The graphics are fine regardless of taste. This is a topic that has been flogged to death for some reason, not sure if a type of clutching at the last straw as some say.
The time and effort that Bioware have put into the detail is starting to make the vocal minority look a tad foolish.
ROLL on RELEASE,
________________________________________________________
Sorcery must persist, the future is the Citadel
I prefer a million times a fluid frame rate in any situation with SWTOR graphics than stuttering with more realistic graphics.
An honest review of SW:TOR 6/10 (Danny Wojcicki)
Rift has more realistic graphics then most MMO's out and with 450+ players and 100+ mobs raoming in the same area of the zone and there was no lag or stuttering with 20-30 fps.
40-50fps when not crowded with a 250gts...
"It would be awesome if you could duel your companion. Then you could solo pvp".--Thanes
Wait... i read in Rift forums that the games was having a lot of problems with frame rate. That decided me to not try it...
An honest review of SW:TOR 6/10 (Danny Wojcicki)
Beta1 yes beta4 no... Trion is just running debug software.. I've played all 4 betas and the beta1 had issues was only getting 15-20 fps in crowds.. By beta4 i get 35-40 fps during Raid events and 45-50 out questing solo..
Trion just needed to tweek a few this during beta events but the fps is a non issue unless you try to run ultra settings with a 8800gt..
Only complaints you will see about fps now is people trying to get way to much out of there low end vid cards, if they just except running the game at medium to high settings they would be fine..
Or just upgrade to a newer vid card and run ultra settings with shadows and get 50-60 fps np..
I run a 250gts on high settings and get 40-50fps and the graphics look beautiful....
"It would be awesome if you could duel your companion. Then you could solo pvp".--Thanes
TBH your going to get that with any MMO.
People with older computers or unoptimized systems blame the games they play instead of the real problem.
Guys this is all so subjective. I have a VIP pass with Rift and I was disappointed with the graphics. Yes, the FPS improved a little, but they were not at all impressive to me where I felt like I wanted to explore. It really is more of a matter of taste more than anything and just how much they address the fine details and the technical nature of the graphics choice (e.g. Antiliasing, shadows, bloom, etc). Lord of the Rings Online was one of the few games that I was like wow, that is really pretty in some spots, like when I saw the House of Elron for the first time and how perfect they did the reflections on the marble.
There Is Always Hope!
True.
I haven't had an mmo blow me away with graphics since AoC. That didn't do much to help the game either. You had half the people that bought it be unable to play it.
So I think MMO's have to forget about graphics in order to remain accessable to the largest possible audience. It sucks for people that can afford better systems, but it would hurt a companies bottom line too much.
I'm kinda funny this way. I actually like that the graphics aren't super realistic. That way it doesn't feel like every other game i've played. I get tired of dreary dark realistic worlds that always look like the world is coming to an end (looking at you rift). Theres nothing wrong with realistic worlds but when 95% of the games go with a realistic look (rift, FE, Lotro, EQ1 and 2, final fantasy 14 just for example) and you get one that looks different, its a breath of fresh air.
These graphics feel far enough away from anything i've played that they actually look more interesting to look at. Plus i look at other little things that make me giggle. Granted in super realistic games the graphics look nice but the combat gets boring and looks unrealistic in the fact that you aren't really blocking attacks. Not true here.
Which ever the case may be. The graphics look darn good to me, well enough to play it and be just fine, and that is probably ToRs only weak point, if it's a weak point at all. Everything else looks great (story, quests, worlds, crafting, companions)
To finally bring my point home. I think over the last few years we have easily step from the graphics actually being bad (which was the point of this topic) to being good enough that it's now just peoples tastes if they don't like it. But i feel i can be bold enough to say. The graphics do not sux.
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.
One would think that the success of MINECRAFT (in this day and age) will finally put an end to this argument that 'Graphics' somehow matter.
I think it is a personal choice whether you like a certain style or not.
I will give you that if you go for the 'real' (like the holodeck in Star Trek) thing, no one will complain though. :P
Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
The dev costs will be easily recovered, if this is a value for money discussion then fine but it isn't.
I care little for what they spend , but what I do know is my Bioware experiences have always been great value and professionally done. So I am struggling to accept they will fail to deliver on Graphics especially baed on what I am seeing.
________________________________________________________
Sorcery must persist, the future is the Citadel
First you are saying the vocal minority will look a tad foolish considering how much effort was put into TOR then you don't care how much they spend. There's something that does't work in your logic. In our economy system employees effort = $$$.
How so, do you even know what TOR is? Since when in wow do your choices make a difference in WoW? Was this a secret saturday update I wasn't aware of?
Played - M59, EQOA, EQ, EQ2, PS, SWG[Favorite], DAoC, UO, RS, MXO, CoH/CoV, TR, FFXI, FoM, WoW, Eve, Rift, SWTOR, TSW.
Playing - PS2, AoW, GW2
Also, this. Realism with mediocre style gets old.
Groovy.
I would of prefered more realistic high-tech graphics, but I understand Biowares logic.
BIOWARE SAID:
The stylised look is certainly intentional. Genndy is a huge talent. Our Jedi knight outfits are directly inspired by Obi Wan from the animated Clone Wars series. We're huge fans. Very early we decided we needed to go stylised for two big reasons: one, it's always important that when you see a screenshot, you can tell what the game is. You make some sort of statement. Two: there's nothing worse than going super high-res and high tech on a game that's supposed to be played for years. Because nothing ages faster and looks dumber than something that was cool and high-tech two years ago. When you're going for a market share this big, the technology has to scale all the way up and down, and do it well, so that it looks like the same game on any PC. It's not OK for you to run it on a different machine and for it to look like a different graphics engine.
I dont like the clone wars graphics and I think it will kill immersion if your having a romantic conversation with a cartoon.
However, I think Bioware has been improving these graphics, and have added detail. They also are trying to go for a "painters detailed art" type look that is unique. I have a feeling they will improve the graphics even further.
Regardless, theres too much to like about the game, for me, to simply shun it because of the graphics direction.
Its improving.
BIOWARE says....
All the major systems are in place now, which means art is going up by amazing milestones every time we hit a new build. All the art's coming in – this is a huge content game. It takes a tonne of time. We have more outfits, more species, more stuff than any other game would ever attempt. We're also starting to get the loot in, the gear and the equipment. We've got eight classes with all their different class stories, so it's not OK if by level 20 your trooper doesn't look like a trooper or your bounty hunter doesn't look like a bounty hunter, and instead it looks like everybody got drunk and went to the thrift store. That means we had to do more class specific art just for one class than many games would attempt in their entirety.
Notice the different curvature of the trees, and the various plant life.
I completely agree with your comments on the background Calibanvov. Very good looking all around and not 2 dimensional branches on the trees either like WoW has. That alone really impressed me. I am also having a hard time understanding how people can say the character models look like Clone Wars. The problem with that statement is that the character models in Clone Wars is all about hard lines and angles, while the character models in TOR is about curves. Completely different styles.
"If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"
I think the graphics look great. But then again, graphics don't make a game. I am currently enjoying The Quest on the ipod touch, and those graphics look like their from 92. But then again it's probably one of the most engaging games I have played. If it plays good, has nice systems in the game, and enough content to last a while, I'm sure it will be a very good game. Even if it doesn't have graphics from the newest engines, or even graphics from last years titles. Who cares. If you prefer graphics over gameplay, then you shouldn't be playing games, you should be watching movies, CG movies.