Garkan, you've heard that the game will have two factions and have automatically condemned it to be the story-clone of world of warcraft's horde and alliance. The truth is that we know next to nothing about how it actually works and what backstory is involved.
The only things we truly know for sure are thus:
Imperium of Man, Chaos, Orkz, Tyranids, and maybe Eldar are involved while it's unknown who besides the first will be playable.
Two sides will be fighting over the Sargos sector, Order and Destruction.
Ancient devices known as the Sentinels exist across the sector that prevent the ENTIRE SECTOR from being swallowed into the warp to create a second Eye of Terror.
Order is trying to preserve the sector, destruction is trying to do worse than destroy it - they're trying to open another massive gate between reality and the warp.
Other than that, the rest is still speculation. It could be very possible that between allies only communication is possible. No grouping, healing, trading etc. They are there as a second force to attack your mutual enemies. The Imperium of Man has tollerated the presence of helpful Xenos when something greater is at stake and they know they will lose on their own.
You also say that such truces are temporary, and would never last extended periods of time like what is represented in an MMO. Did you also know that when games workshop describes the truces during their campaigns as "short lived", they have been known to last over twenty years? In the grand scale of things with a war that has been fought for more than 10 millennia, twenty years is the passing of a season.
These campaigns are not quick skirmishes, and they're much grander a scale than any war that has been fought in our own history. They span multiple planets with forces gathered from all over the galaxy. Death tolls can number in the billions on each side. People born at the beginning of the conflict can live to be old enough to fight in the same battle that has been going on for their entire life. This isn't world war 2 where the Americans can show up, fight for a few years, make friends with the British to save the French and beat the Germans and they all go home happy. The Imperium can stand by the Eldar for a decades long battle and still hate them at the end of it.
Now go grow an imagination and stop throwing a tantrum.
How can you connect an opinion on a forum to someones ability to play a TT game? That's a barely credible leap tbqfh but I will admit I was more into the modelling aspect and collected armies and made the best terrain I could for set piece battles it usually took me months making terrain and painting units for a specific scenario based on Codex's and novels, I hated unpainted armies and would avoid playing people who could not be bothered to paint them. The part about what someone believes is thought provoking though because what you are missing is the fact that your opinion on what the fluff means is purely a belief.
I see a world where the races are purely fulfilling self interest and ideological dogma and only cooperate with the aliens that are least offensive to their beliefs when it was absolutely necessary or unavoidable, loyal Imperial forces would never work with Chaos but Elder could be tolerated under extreme circumstances and so on.
You see a world where they work together constantly.
Your opinion is based on TT rules and one off special promotional events held by GW and a few stories that have been published where aliens cooperated.
My opinion is based on the wider fluff and the depiction of the various factions over the millenia and that aliens only cooperated for mutual benefit on very few occasions and are more likely to try and stitch each other up and manipulate events so that they take greater benefit from the encounter, I can only recall a few novels where factions cooperated for mutual benefit, most times both sides where preparing for the inevitable double cross and trying to hide their secret agenda.
Here's the killer though neither opinion is really wrong or right and ultimately come down to perception, but that's the beautiful thing about the 40k universe because its so huge and so open to interpretation that people can take away what they want from it.
I see your points about the various codex's but there is a difference between rules and fluff, codex's contain both but rules are very different as they where designed to make a good game via the mechanics and the dice roll for a heavy bolter jam chance isn't anything to do with fluff, all it means in fluff is that a heavy bolter could suddenly turn unreliable. GW also knew that many people would meet for a battle and might not have an army of a certain type so they allowed for allies, a guy might have a nice IG army but his friend only has Elder and they are meeting some people who have Chaos or Orks and so on.
Game mechanics are not fluff.
Here's the killer though neither opinion is really wrong or right and ultimately come down to perception, but that's the beautiful thing about the 40k universe because its so huge and so open to interpretation that people can take away what they want from it.
This is what I have been trying to say. The game lore by definition allows for alliances between specific races. This is the route GW is taking with DMO. This is not a wrong interpretation, this is not a "money grab" unless by money grab you mean 'a hope to make a profitable game.'
BTW the promotional event of the eye of terror and the lore attatched to it was taken much more seriously than that by GW.
They were quoted as saying that the events of the black crusade would act as a cornerstone for the future of 40k lore.
As far as the semantics between what rules and fluff are, we both know what they are so I wont point it out any further than to say the books and codexes and alliances they suggest have lore attached, its not mechanics.
What the fluff means to me is irrelavent to my arguement that the 40k world allows for alliances.
What StMichael brings up is a very good point, I did not iterate on and should have. The fact that I dont see this game making an allaince WoW style where 'your black templar space marine mans the cannon of a wave serpent.' There is no room for that kind of thing in the lore and no precedent for it at all. I believe that they will not do this and it will be closer to what StMichael is describing. This was discussed much further down this thread and in others but its burried pretty deep by now.
Do you deny that GW has ever sidelined the fluff during game development? Lets start with Firewarror as you brought that up earlier, somehow a young inexperienced Tau could handle and fire space marine weapons, lets move on to Dawn of war and examine how they completely rearranged unit deployments like infinite supply Dreadnoughts and other things and chopped out and added pieces to the fluff and at times completely raped it, A Space marine chapter on their own initiative disrupted an officially sanctioned IG campaign on two occasions and massacred the troops and killed the commander and on one occasion massacred a group of Soritas.
The list could go on but these are the most obvious and recent ones but you could go all the way back to Chaos gate, my point is basically that GW don't really let cannon get in the way when attempting to sell video games.
My opinion is being dismissed as a tantrum but if any bitterness is showing its because I am disappointed because I really would like to play a good 40k MMO but as we saw with Warhammer online they will ape WoW, you will see "epic" infeasible quests and earning loot rewards, "Hey marine kill 40 Chaos marines then come back to me to receive your antique power sword" and character classes living daily lives that is nothing like fluff, will they depict an Astarte spending hours a day in prayer and any time hes not in prayer training? most likely not because it wouldn't make for exciting game play.
I could never take a game like that seriously and I doubt many 40k fans will but maybe that's the idea as they don't care if hardcore 40k fans like it or not as they will try to markets it towards gamers in general like they did with the RTS series and other games, which is probably the way they have to do it in order to make money from it as doing it the other way around would be stupid as the game has to profitable, GW and Vigil are a business after all but it still leaves me disappointed.
Currently playing:
EVE online (Ruining low sec one hotdrop at a time)
Gravity Rush, Dishonoured: The Knife of Dunwall.
(Waiting for) Metro: Last Light, Company of Heroes II.
Literally, those of you in the know, the Vice President of THQ literally said in an interview when they first announced Warhammer 40k that the transition from WoW to Warhammer 40k will be seemless and no stopgaps will be had. They're literally aiming for 1million of WoW's subscriber base. If this isn't closer to a WoW copy than Alods, i don't know what is.
So, why do you still go "ZOMG i can't wait for this game!" when they release more and more horrible gameplay videos for this game?
[edit]: Just to point out, you are NOT a Warhammer 40k fan, or Warhammer in general, if you're waiting on this game because it's "Warhammer 40k". Warhammer fans are FAR more intelligent than to give money to a company that is trying to COMPLETELY destroy the IP as a whole.
Welcome to the fast food industry of mmorpgs. I agree with you - hands down you are correct in your statement as was visibly portrayed by the designer's personal interview.
I am hopeful that someday, a developer team will get funding from someone who truly has a heart and eye in the traditional RPG genre. When that day comes, I am equally hopeful that the bar will again be raised from the depths where Blizzard took gaming communities and the genre in general and raise it into the sky where titles such as Dark Age of Camelot once soared.
Welcome to the fast food industry of mmorpgs. I agree with you - hands down you are correct in your statement as was visibly portrayed by the designer's personal interview.
I am hopeful that someday, a developer team will get funding from someone who truly has a heart and eye in the traditional RPG genre. When that day comes, I am equally hopeful that the bar will again be raised from the depths where Blizzard took gaming communities and the genre in general and raise it into the sky where titles such as Dark Age of Camelot once soared.
/my 2 cents.
White wolf is together with CCP making "World of darkness online", that is what you ask for.
When the lead devs talks about pleasing Wow player I on the other hand wont even try it out for free, why can't anyone actually be true to the warhammer world and mechanics?
I think most other GW fans will agree with me in saying that levels and Warhammer just don't work together.
Welcome to the fast food industry of mmorpgs. I agree with you - hands down you are correct in your statement as was visibly portrayed by the designer's personal interview.
I am hopeful that someday, a developer team will get funding from someone who truly has a heart and eye in the traditional RPG genre. When that day comes, I am equally hopeful that the bar will again be raised from the depths where Blizzard took gaming communities and the genre in general and raise it into the sky where titles such as Dark Age of Camelot once soared.
/my 2 cents.
White wolf is together with CCP making "World of darkness online", that is what you ask for.
When the lead devs talks about pleasing Wow player I on the other hand wont even try it out for free, why can't anyone actually be true to the warhammer world and mechanics?
I think most other GW fans will agree with me in saying that levels and Warhammer just don't work together.
More importantly 2 factions and wh40k do not go together no matter what bs fluff they come up with. Imperium of man would be just as likely to shoot eldar allies than the enemy, and unless they provide us that mechanic to attack our allies whilst in battle. They can go EFF themselves for destroying another awesome IP. Im starting to think GW doesnt have the balls to stand up for their IP's that are being destroyed. Or they are just money grubbing.
More importantly 2 factions and wh40k do not go together no matter what bs fluff they come up with. Imperium of man would be just as likely to shoot eldar allies than the enemy, and unless they provide us that mechanic to attack our allies whilst in battle. They can go EFF themselves for destroying another awesome IP. Im starting to think GW doesnt have the balls to stand up for their IP's that are being destroyed. Or they are just money grubbing.
I would say it is just a little less important but sure, it is also totally screwing over the lore.
GW in the old days were somewhat odd but they at least wouldn't sell their souls like this. Maybe it is time to start playing flames of war instead, no one will sell that license to make a Wow copy at least.
Then go. Get the fuck out. I have stopped caring about trying to convince those of you whining, bitching and moaning about lore rape. Get off these boards, forget everything ever mentioned about this game and continue to read the 5th edition rulebook while fondling yourself. Sit lonely by yourself pining over your own nerd fantasy of a game tailor made to your will without a single damn given about any other factor that goes into designing, developing, coding, marketing or selling a game that requires a minimum investment in the tens of millions of dollars.
I and many others here have been playing Warhammer since the 80s. Would you be happy if they screwed over your favorite ip?
If they want a Sci fi game that is similar to Wow just make it, don't take a IP with lots of fans and totally mess it up. You might get some extra box sales from the start but it will just kick you in the teeth later.
It didn't work for WAR and it wont work this time either.
Then go. Get the fuck out. I have stopped caring about trying to convince those of you whining, bitching and moaning about lore rape. Get off these boards, forget everything ever mentioned about this game and continue to read the 5th edition rulebook while fondling yourself. Sit lonely by yourself pining over your own nerd fantasy of a game tailor made to your will without a single damn given about any other factor that goes into designing, developing, coding, marketing or selling a game that requires a minimum investment in the tens of millions of dollars.
I and many others here have been playing Warhammer since the 80s. Would you be happy if they screwed over your favorite ip?
If they want a Sci fi game that is similar to Wow just make it, don't take a IP with lots of fans and totally mess it up. You might get some extra box sales from the start but it will just kick you in the teeth later.
It didn't work for WAR and it wont work this time either.
That, and having 3 factions is just better all around from a game design aspect. It's all pros and almost no cons.
It is interesting to see people still talking about this as if it were going to be a WH40K Sandbox. It is a particular scenario - a themepark.
It would be awesome to have a Rogue Trader MMORPG - original RT that is - but it is not going to happen.
They will need a pretty quick turnaround time to keep pushing out content/scenarios for the game they are planning, but I just do not think they can get it done.
I cannot get over the sour taste I still have from DoW2 after enjoying DoW so much.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
There is no convincing those who refuse to see reality. Thankfully, its not my problem.
I and many others here have been playing Warhammer since the 80s. Would you be happy if they screwed over your favorite ip?
If they want a Sci fi game that is similar to Wow just make it, don't take a IP with lots of fans and totally mess it up. You might get some extra box sales from the start but it will just kick you in the teeth later.
It didn't work for WAR and it wont work this time either.
THIIS GAME IS ACTION BASED........ IT DOESNT HAVE TANK HEALER DPS TRINITY..... IT HAS VEHICLES. IT IS NOT A TRADITIONAL MMO.
that to me, a rational human being, sounds nothing like WoW in the remotest possible sense.
I have been playing 40k since the 80s and can tell you denotively that they arent screwing over anything. Sorry, but in the interest of not reiterating, I suggest you read the thread before posting. It has already been covered that Order v Disorder is a 7 year old GW construct (based upon the potential alliances that have always existed.) some here obviously came in the game after 2nd edition or they would know that. It has also been established that the game has allowed for these specific alliances since the beginning of its existence. I know you just cant see it, and that it ruins game for you. Thats fine, keep your blinders on, but realize that its not GW that is the problem or the lores problem, its your problem and yours alone. If you think that these lore sanctioned alliances destroy the fluff; Sorry, its just your problem alone.
I will post this list again, since some folks simply dont read posts before they attempt to contribute.
Official 2nd ed allies, taken directly from the support section of each codex's army lists:
Ultramarines/generic Codex Chapter: any Space Marine lists, Imperial Guard, Imperial Agents, Squats, Eldar (may not choose an Avatar)
Blood Angels: any Space Marine lists, Imperial Guard, Imperial Agents, Squats, Eldar
Dark Angels: any Space Marine lists, Imperial Guard, Imperial Agents
Space Wolves: any Space Marine lists, Imperial Guard, Imperial Agents, Squats, Eldar
Imperial Guard: any Space Marine lists, Imperial Agents, Squats, Eldar
Eldar: any Space Marine lists, Imperial Guard, Squats
Harlequins: no allies
Chaos Marines: Orks; also, if agreed by opponent, Chaos Cult and/or Imperial Guard (ignore IG command structure)
Sisters of Battle: Imperial Guard, Space Marines, Imperial Agents
I can't find my copy of Codex: Orks, but the "Codex Army Lists" from the 2nd ed box set lists their allies as Chaos, and, if they include at least one Blood Axe Mob, Imperial Guard.
"Codex Army Lists" also allows Genestealer Cults to ally with Tyranids, and has the allies list for…
Ok Unincornus the allied faction thing is going around and around but how do you justify the publisher of the damn game saying it will be like WoW?
Disagreements about the fluff are completely secondary to that at the end of the day.
EDIT
I Will also add that you are in the minority about this because just about every fan site is filled with people who don't like the idea of it any of it either, there are of course one or two out of several hundred people who share an opinion about it who would agree with you but most don't.
Currently playing:
EVE online (Ruining low sec one hotdrop at a time)
Gravity Rush, Dishonoured: The Knife of Dunwall.
(Waiting for) Metro: Last Light, Company of Heroes II.
THEY NEVER EVER SAID it would be like wow... you need to read the quote yourself... my gosh.
here hold on.
The person who posted this and the people who are propgating this BS are the same alarmists who call every damn MMO in the universe wowclones simply to be inflamatory.
What he did say is he wanted the game to be familiar enough for wow useres to be able to understand the game AKA friendly to wow players. what MMO designer in thier right mind wouldnt????? i mean seriously. he never said he wanted it to be "like wow" thats a simple lie straight up. and people eat it up every day on this forum. Nothing I can do about that. The difference is, I actually read things for myself though.
here, please watch this link and you will see what they think about about this WoW issue. plus its a decent interview all the way around.
pay special attention to how he states this game will be similar to wow.
It will have guilds... wow has guilds.. it has dungeons, loot... wow has loot. it will have all the features triple A title MMO is expected to have... THAT is how it will be like wow.
now... for how it WONT be like wow.
1. this game is closer to FPS than it is to wow.... it is action based.
2. They have stated that they are eliminating the MMO style HUD to give the game a more video game style feel. NO 70 button MMO HUD
3. This game has vehicles and they play a huge part in the pvp AND pve of the game. They have physics and interact with the environment. THIS GAME HAS VEHICLES.
5. This is a big one... there is no TANK HEALER DPS TRINITY IN DMO
6. and I quote, "THIS IS NOT A TRADITIONAL MMO."
The bottom line here is that the internet is filled with alarmist who take one small quote out of context and use it to rile up as many people as possible who wont be bothered to find this kind of information for themselsves. I do daily google searches for new DMO info for one reason. THERE ISNT ENOUGH OF IT TO KNOW WHAT THE GAME WILL BE LIKE.
as far as being in the minority on the internet; it means next to nothing to me. If you were to read these forums, you would think that WOW was a horrible game and that everyone hated it. The predominant voice on MMORPG.com tends to be a voice that complains. but this forum and the internet doesnt dictate reality when it comes to MMOS, the haters rule the web. they always have they always will. When I have discussions with my real life friends, 40kers and associates about DMO, those who know the lore and have played as long as I have have a wildly different reaction than the internet nerd ragers. It is a reaction of, hmm cool sounds like the "Eye of Terror Online."
However, It is extremely alarming to me that the majority of posters here dont understand the nature of the lore very well and are willing to lambast a product that hasnt even come out yet based on thier own misperceptions regarding the lore. I must restate I totally respect people having thier own interpretations of the lore, but the 2 factions system is part of this lore and allainces are part of this lore as well, GW made it flexible that way for a reason.
again, in matters such as this it has never bothered me to be in th minority on the internet. I present my arguement, I present facts to back it up. This internet rage is no different than it was on the VN boards when DAoC was goign strong. I found myself in the minority there too.. Defending what I thought was a fantastic game to an endless swarm of haters who would have you believe that Mythic may as well have shot Kennedy when they released DAoC cuase it was the most terrible game ever made. I mean have you ever been to the world of warcraft forums... I have literally seen the developers get death threats there. Over a game.
EDIT: I really did try not to make a wall of text.
"RPS: So, you haven’t released a great deal of information on the game yet. Is this going to be a traditional MMORPG?
Tim Campbell: We look at it like, there’s two layers to an MMO. There’s the upper layer, which is progression, merchants, getting abilities and all that kind of stuff, and we have some twists and turns in there but for the most part it’ll be quite similar to the other MMOs out there.
Where we want to innovate is in the basic, moment-to-moment gameplay. The first thing we realised is that if you try to do traditional MM]O combat with guns, it doesn’t work. You have like, a tank with a gun? It doesn’t make sense. And because the IP is really visceral and powerful, we wanted to amp the action up. So, it’s much more action-based. But we don’t want to talk about that just yet.
What I will say is that walking through these halls, you can spot an MMO from forty feet away. There’s something about ‘em. They’ve got a million buttons, and you target enemies and attack them, and the whole thing is so easily identifiable. But because of our presentation and interface, if you walked by our game on the show floor, you wouldn’t think it was an MMO. At that level, it doesn’t play like an MMO.
"
Quote number 2.
RPS: How do you feel about Warhammer Online: Age of Reckoning?
TC: I played it, I enjoyed it. I don’t really like to talk about other people’s projects, but I think that did fall into the category of a more traditional MMO, and we don’t. You go on missions and you gain levels; we have all the trappings that make you feel attached to the game and the community, but what you’re doing- the thing with an MMO is that you never talk about what you did in the game. You might say that you got cool loot, or you killed this boss, but you never say- like, if you’d played Left 4 Dead, you’d be like “We were in the carnival, and a guy shot the car, and it was crazy, and one of the Smokers got one of our guys who got dragged off on his own!”
The physical acts you did. That’s what you’re talking about. And in an MMO, you say- “I pulled a mob and killed it”? Everybody does that in every MMO in every hallway. You just never talk about it.
A game that is familiar to WoW players wont take features from WoW? It might have a few extra toys but I bet the familiar bits are the character progression and quest structure and loot emphasised game play.
Currently playing:
EVE online (Ruining low sec one hotdrop at a time)
Gravity Rush, Dishonoured: The Knife of Dunwall.
(Waiting for) Metro: Last Light, Company of Heroes II.
A game that is familiar to WoW players wont take features from WoW? It might have a few extra toys but I bet the familiar bits are the character progression and quest structure and loot emphasised game play.
Did you watch the interviews I posted? did you read the interviews I posted? I also tried to highlight the ways they said it would be familiar to wow players and more importantly how it would not be like wow
"but I bet the familiar bits are the character progression and quest structure and loot emphasised game play."
Yes you bet... well how about waiting for more information before you state how "disgusted" you are with the game and how you will never play it.
As far as character progression and quests, yes they have said those types of things are in the game but maybe not like you are used to thinking.
As for loot based gameplay, YES, i agree it sucks, thats a major sticking point for me too and it is what I really hated about WOW. I hope they follow suit with GW2 and make the better loot prettier and only very slightly more powerful, so at least I still ahve a chance with SKILL. But again, Ill have to wait and see, there is no information available on that yet.
Very disappointing to hear, but can you honestly saying it's a suprise. Look on the bright side, if it follows trend they'll be thinking of making f2p within a year or two, so it may not cost you anything to muck about with.
I think you are grasping at straws now because you seem unable to see what most people see, are you that desperate for a 40k MMO that you will accept anything offered?
Most fans hate the idea of two factions yet you defend it, most fans see how GW have let THQ rape fluff before yet you defend it, most fans see from interviews and previous games how they will make it ape WoW yet you defend it.
No one can help you to see if you are blinded by, something, I cannot understand what though.
Currently playing:
EVE online (Ruining low sec one hotdrop at a time)
Gravity Rush, Dishonoured: The Knife of Dunwall.
(Waiting for) Metro: Last Light, Company of Heroes II.
I think you are grasping at straws now because you seem unable to see what most people see, are you that desperate for a 40k MMO that you will accept anything offered?
Most fans hate the idea of two factions yet you defend it, most fans see how GW have let THQ rape fluff before yet you defend it, most fans see from interviews and previous games how they will make it ape WoW yet you defend it.
No one can help you to see if you are blinded by, something, I cannot understand what though.
I think you are barking up the wrong tree man... i presented the facts.. I dont agree with the ineternet hate squad... I dont agree with the rampant "wowclone" swarm, I present facts, I actually read the peviews I actually follow the interviews... did you read the links I posted? did you watch the interview?
I dont succumb to rampant internet mania. I am not grasping at straws for anythign. I simply choose to wait till when I have actual facts before I make descicions about a game... something that most peopel here have failed to do. I see the facts... I may hate this game, I may enjoy this game, but right now... based on the information, there is nothing to suggest that its bad or lore breaking...NOTHING.
I think you are grasping at straws becuase you dont have a logical position for your disgust in a game that is 2 years from being released and has broken NO lore rules at all. The "majority rules" stance is for people who cant present thier own arguements. Many non gamers I have met throughout my life have looked down upon gamers and think of them as inferior geeks. They must be right becuase the majority thinks so. Bullshit. Like I said, the internet is full of haters.... go ahead, ride the hater wave, its your choice. I choose to remain cuatiously optimistic and hope for a fun and engaging product that does the 40k franchise justice, and there has been nothing released to tell me it wont, NOTHING. I wanted to like WAR, but I was extremely critical of it becuase it fell sooo short of what it could have been. DMO could turn out horribly, it could turn out fantastic, I dont have enough evidence to make that assesment.
I must state however, that I am certainly understanding of people being dissapointed that it isnt multiple factions... thats fine, I totally understand that. Its when those people claim 2 factions breaks the lore or it is somehow inately inferior design wise that I laugh my ass off.
seriously, if you are as old as you state you are you would realize that majority on any given subject doesnt mean shit. read the peviews/interviews I presented, they will prove that they are not designing a wow clone. read the lore, and follow the 40k game, it will prove that 2 factions isnt a lore screw... bottom line; sorry man. internet haters... hate on, every MMO has its irrational haters and this one is no different.
As a side note, its painfully obvious who read the first post and spewed in the thread rather than becomming part of the conversation.
EDIT: Garkan this does not refer to you becuase at least you are involved in the conversation.
Yes, how dare anyone respond to the op rather than to you?????????
Because this thread has since proven the original post definitively wrong. Anyone still ranting and raving about lore rape or WoW cloning is either mentally retarded and incapable of changing a preconcieved notion, or outright trolling to see how far a rational person will go in proving them wrong before they snap.
Since the interview you chicken littles have been quoting, there have been two follow up interviews that have asked about this VERY THING. First, they asked in the video interview done at gamescom what the producer (who hasn't actually done a goddamn thing in terms of developing, designing or creating the game) meant when the game would be friendly to the world of warcraft players. Their response was that the game would still have social interactions and an open seamless world, and in that spirit it was a "MMORPG." They then went on to say that in the moment to moment gameplay, the very buiding blocks on which the WHOLE GAME would be built, are COMPLETELY DIFFERENT. There is no tab targeting, no HUD large enough to confuse an airforce pilot, no dozens of buttons for every minorly different attack and so on.
Second, there was the interview done by PC gamer. In it, they actually admitted to making a 40k WoW clone and COMPLETELY SCRAPPING THE PROJECT. It was, and I quote, "lousy. It didn’t fit with the game played on tabletops across the world, it didn’t fit the team’s imagined experience, and most importantly, it didn’t fit with 40K’s endless, rapid-fire carnage." They have since dedicated the game to a style of gameplay much more fitting of the IP. (http://www.pcgamer.com/2010/12/04/warhammer-40k-dark-millennium-online-a-grim-dark-future/)
And as for the Lore aspect, Uni and I have shown repeatedly how the 40k universe lends itself to temporary truces in the face of a larger objective. Those of you whining and moaning about how it's destroying the IP have your own little version of it you like better and are just choosing not to accept the IP as a whole. So go on, hide in your little hole and deny that this game not only exists, but is more faithful to the IP on the grand scale than your narrow "RAWR GRIMDARK!" version of it.
I reckon reading general chat and seeing Space Marines make chuck norris jokes is gonna be a downer.
If this had 3 RACES (screw factions - too limited for this IP) to start with and played like Planetside..that woulda been amazing.
Hopefully one year some skilfull company with $$$ will make a 40K 'sandbox' game...although 40K IP is super difficult to pull off in a MMorpg (in a way the universe is TOO huge and varied).
I reckon reading general chat and seeing Space Marines make chuck norris jokes is gonna be a downer.
If this had 3 RACES (screw factions - too limited for this IP) to start with and played like Planetside..that woulda been amazing.
Hopefully one year some skilfull company with $$$ will make a 40K 'sandbox' game...although 40K IP is super difficult to pull off in a MMorpg (in a way the universe is TOO huge and varied).
HAHA, yeah, theres nothign you can do about the CNJ. other than maybe play on an RP server... this may be the first game where I attempt to do so. I usually cant be bothered with it.
I reckon reading general chat and seeing Space Marines make chuck norris jokes is gonna be a downer.
If this had 3 RACES (screw factions - too limited for this IP) to start with and played like Planetside..that woulda been amazing.
Hopefully one year some skilfull company with $$$ will make a 40K 'sandbox' game...although 40K IP is super difficult to pull off in a MMorpg (in a way the universe is TOO huge and varied).
This brings up much more truth than most other posts. People are arguing about destruction of lore in a game that will inevitably have space marines with 7 different spellings of every primarch's name (and at least double that for all the traitor primarchs) on every server. Then there will be the inevitable naked Eldar running around abusing every naughty emote they can find, orks doing the same thing for exactly the opposite effect, and the return of just about every /tg/ joke ever created.
Any immersion that would be gained by a free-for-all game would immediately be lost when people get involved. This is the internet for God sake.
Comments
Garkan, you've heard that the game will have two factions and have automatically condemned it to be the story-clone of world of warcraft's horde and alliance. The truth is that we know next to nothing about how it actually works and what backstory is involved.
The only things we truly know for sure are thus:
Imperium of Man, Chaos, Orkz, Tyranids, and maybe Eldar are involved while it's unknown who besides the first will be playable.
Two sides will be fighting over the Sargos sector, Order and Destruction.
Ancient devices known as the Sentinels exist across the sector that prevent the ENTIRE SECTOR from being swallowed into the warp to create a second Eye of Terror.
Order is trying to preserve the sector, destruction is trying to do worse than destroy it - they're trying to open another massive gate between reality and the warp.
Other than that, the rest is still speculation. It could be very possible that between allies only communication is possible. No grouping, healing, trading etc. They are there as a second force to attack your mutual enemies. The Imperium of Man has tollerated the presence of helpful Xenos when something greater is at stake and they know they will lose on their own.
You also say that such truces are temporary, and would never last extended periods of time like what is represented in an MMO. Did you also know that when games workshop describes the truces during their campaigns as "short lived", they have been known to last over twenty years? In the grand scale of things with a war that has been fought for more than 10 millennia, twenty years is the passing of a season.
These campaigns are not quick skirmishes, and they're much grander a scale than any war that has been fought in our own history. They span multiple planets with forces gathered from all over the galaxy. Death tolls can number in the billions on each side. People born at the beginning of the conflict can live to be old enough to fight in the same battle that has been going on for their entire life. This isn't world war 2 where the Americans can show up, fight for a few years, make friends with the British to save the French and beat the Germans and they all go home happy. The Imperium can stand by the Eldar for a decades long battle and still hate them at the end of it.
Now go grow an imagination and stop throwing a tantrum.
Here's the killer though neither opinion is really wrong or right and ultimately come down to perception, but that's the beautiful thing about the 40k universe because its so huge and so open to interpretation that people can take away what they want from it.
This is what I have been trying to say. The game lore by definition allows for alliances between specific races. This is the route GW is taking with DMO. This is not a wrong interpretation, this is not a "money grab" unless by money grab you mean 'a hope to make a profitable game.'
BTW the promotional event of the eye of terror and the lore attatched to it was taken much more seriously than that by GW.
They were quoted as saying that the events of the black crusade would act as a cornerstone for the future of 40k lore.
As far as the semantics between what rules and fluff are, we both know what they are so I wont point it out any further than to say the books and codexes and alliances they suggest have lore attached, its not mechanics.
What the fluff means to me is irrelavent to my arguement that the 40k world allows for alliances.
What StMichael brings up is a very good point, I did not iterate on and should have. The fact that I dont see this game making an allaince WoW style where 'your black templar space marine mans the cannon of a wave serpent.' There is no room for that kind of thing in the lore and no precedent for it at all. I believe that they will not do this and it will be closer to what StMichael is describing. This was discussed much further down this thread and in others but its burried pretty deep by now.
Do you deny that GW has ever sidelined the fluff during game development? Lets start with Firewarror as you brought that up earlier, somehow a young inexperienced Tau could handle and fire space marine weapons, lets move on to Dawn of war and examine how they completely rearranged unit deployments like infinite supply Dreadnoughts and other things and chopped out and added pieces to the fluff and at times completely raped it, A Space marine chapter on their own initiative disrupted an officially sanctioned IG campaign on two occasions and massacred the troops and killed the commander and on one occasion massacred a group of Soritas.
The list could go on but these are the most obvious and recent ones but you could go all the way back to Chaos gate, my point is basically that GW don't really let cannon get in the way when attempting to sell video games.
My opinion is being dismissed as a tantrum but if any bitterness is showing its because I am disappointed because I really would like to play a good 40k MMO but as we saw with Warhammer online they will ape WoW, you will see "epic" infeasible quests and earning loot rewards, "Hey marine kill 40 Chaos marines then come back to me to receive your antique power sword" and character classes living daily lives that is nothing like fluff, will they depict an Astarte spending hours a day in prayer and any time hes not in prayer training? most likely not because it wouldn't make for exciting game play.
I could never take a game like that seriously and I doubt many 40k fans will but maybe that's the idea as they don't care if hardcore 40k fans like it or not as they will try to markets it towards gamers in general like they did with the RTS series and other games, which is probably the way they have to do it in order to make money from it as doing it the other way around would be stupid as the game has to profitable, GW and Vigil are a business after all but it still leaves me disappointed.
Currently playing:
EVE online (Ruining low sec one hotdrop at a time)
Gravity Rush,
Dishonoured: The Knife of Dunwall.
(Waiting for) Metro: Last Light,
Company of Heroes II.
Welcome to the fast food industry of mmorpgs. I agree with you - hands down you are correct in your statement as was visibly portrayed by the designer's personal interview.
I am hopeful that someday, a developer team will get funding from someone who truly has a heart and eye in the traditional RPG genre. When that day comes, I am equally hopeful that the bar will again be raised from the depths where Blizzard took gaming communities and the genre in general and raise it into the sky where titles such as Dark Age of Camelot once soared.
/my 2 cents.
White wolf is together with CCP making "World of darkness online", that is what you ask for.
When the lead devs talks about pleasing Wow player I on the other hand wont even try it out for free, why can't anyone actually be true to the warhammer world and mechanics?
I think most other GW fans will agree with me in saying that levels and Warhammer just don't work together.
More importantly 2 factions and wh40k do not go together no matter what bs fluff they come up with. Imperium of man would be just as likely to shoot eldar allies than the enemy, and unless they provide us that mechanic to attack our allies whilst in battle. They can go EFF themselves for destroying another awesome IP. Im starting to think GW doesnt have the balls to stand up for their IP's that are being destroyed. Or they are just money grubbing.
I would say it is just a little less important but sure, it is also totally screwing over the lore.
GW in the old days were somewhat odd but they at least wouldn't sell their souls like this. Maybe it is time to start playing flames of war instead, no one will sell that license to make a Wow copy at least.
I and many others here have been playing Warhammer since the 80s. Would you be happy if they screwed over your favorite ip?
If they want a Sci fi game that is similar to Wow just make it, don't take a IP with lots of fans and totally mess it up. You might get some extra box sales from the start but it will just kick you in the teeth later.
It didn't work for WAR and it wont work this time either.
That, and having 3 factions is just better all around from a game design aspect. It's all pros and almost no cons.
It is interesting to see people still talking about this as if it were going to be a WH40K Sandbox. It is a particular scenario - a themepark.
It would be awesome to have a Rogue Trader MMORPG - original RT that is - but it is not going to happen.
They will need a pretty quick turnaround time to keep pushing out content/scenarios for the game they are planning, but I just do not think they can get it done.
I cannot get over the sour taste I still have from DoW2 after enjoying DoW so much.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
There is no convincing those who refuse to see reality. Thankfully, its not my problem.
I and many others here have been playing Warhammer since the 80s. Would you be happy if they screwed over your favorite ip?
If they want a Sci fi game that is similar to Wow just make it, don't take a IP with lots of fans and totally mess it up. You might get some extra box sales from the start but it will just kick you in the teeth later.
It didn't work for WAR and it wont work this time either.
THIIS GAME IS ACTION BASED........ IT DOESNT HAVE TANK HEALER DPS TRINITY..... IT HAS VEHICLES. IT IS NOT A TRADITIONAL MMO.
that to me, a rational human being, sounds nothing like WoW in the remotest possible sense.
I have been playing 40k since the 80s and can tell you denotively that they arent screwing over anything. Sorry, but in the interest of not reiterating, I suggest you read the thread before posting. It has already been covered that Order v Disorder is a 7 year old GW construct (based upon the potential alliances that have always existed.) some here obviously came in the game after 2nd edition or they would know that. It has also been established that the game has allowed for these specific alliances since the beginning of its existence. I know you just cant see it, and that it ruins game for you. Thats fine, keep your blinders on, but realize that its not GW that is the problem or the lores problem, its your problem and yours alone. If you think that these lore sanctioned alliances destroy the fluff; Sorry, its just your problem alone.
I will post this list again, since some folks simply dont read posts before they attempt to contribute.
Official 2nd ed allies, taken directly from the support section of each codex's army lists:
Ultramarines/generic Codex Chapter: any Space Marine lists, Imperial Guard, Imperial Agents, Squats, Eldar (may not choose an Avatar)
Blood Angels: any Space Marine lists, Imperial Guard, Imperial Agents, Squats, Eldar
Dark Angels: any Space Marine lists, Imperial Guard, Imperial Agents
Space Wolves: any Space Marine lists, Imperial Guard, Imperial Agents, Squats, Eldar
Imperial Guard: any Space Marine lists, Imperial Agents, Squats, Eldar
Eldar: any Space Marine lists, Imperial Guard, Squats
Harlequins: no allies
Chaos Marines: Orks; also, if agreed by opponent, Chaos Cult and/or Imperial Guard (ignore IG command structure)
Chaos Cult: Imperial Guard (ignore IG command structure), Orks, Genestealer Cults and Chaos Marines
Tyranids: no allies
Genestealer Chaos
Sisters of Battle: Imperial Guard, Space Marines, Imperial Agents
I can't find my copy of Codex: Orks, but the "Codex Army Lists" from the 2nd ed box set lists their allies as Chaos, and, if they include at least one Blood Axe Mob, Imperial Guard.
"Codex Army Lists" also allows Genestealer Cults to ally with Tyranids, and has the allies list for…
Squats: Space Marines, Imperial Guard, Eldar
Ok Unincornus the allied faction thing is going around and around but how do you justify the publisher of the damn game saying it will be like WoW?
Disagreements about the fluff are completely secondary to that at the end of the day.
EDIT
I Will also add that you are in the minority about this because just about every fan site is filled with people who don't like the idea of it any of it either, there are of course one or two out of several hundred people who share an opinion about it who would agree with you but most don't.
Currently playing:
EVE online (Ruining low sec one hotdrop at a time)
Gravity Rush,
Dishonoured: The Knife of Dunwall.
(Waiting for) Metro: Last Light,
Company of Heroes II.
THEY NEVER EVER SAID it would be like wow... you need to read the quote yourself... my gosh.
here hold on.
The person who posted this and the people who are propgating this BS are the same alarmists who call every damn MMO in the universe wowclones simply to be inflamatory.
What he did say is he wanted the game to be familiar enough for wow useres to be able to understand the game AKA friendly to wow players. what MMO designer in thier right mind wouldnt????? i mean seriously. he never said he wanted it to be "like wow" thats a simple lie straight up. and people eat it up every day on this forum. Nothing I can do about that. The difference is, I actually read things for myself though.
here, please watch this link and you will see what they think about about this WoW issue. plus its a decent interview all the way around.
http://www.gamereactor.eu/grtv/?id=8555 <-------- watch this.
pay special attention to how he states this game will be similar to wow.
It will have guilds... wow has guilds.. it has dungeons, loot... wow has loot. it will have all the features triple A title MMO is expected to have... THAT is how it will be like wow.
now... for how it WONT be like wow.
1. this game is closer to FPS than it is to wow.... it is action based.
2. They have stated that they are eliminating the MMO style HUD to give the game a more video game style feel. NO 70 button MMO HUD
3. This game has vehicles and they play a huge part in the pvp AND pve of the game. They have physics and interact with the environment. THIS GAME HAS VEHICLES.
5. This is a big one... there is no TANK HEALER DPS TRINITY IN DMO
6. and I quote, "THIS IS NOT A TRADITIONAL MMO."
The bottom line here is that the internet is filled with alarmist who take one small quote out of context and use it to rile up as many people as possible who wont be bothered to find this kind of information for themselsves. I do daily google searches for new DMO info for one reason. THERE ISNT ENOUGH OF IT TO KNOW WHAT THE GAME WILL BE LIKE.
as far as being in the minority on the internet; it means next to nothing to me. If you were to read these forums, you would think that WOW was a horrible game and that everyone hated it. The predominant voice on MMORPG.com tends to be a voice that complains. but this forum and the internet doesnt dictate reality when it comes to MMOS, the haters rule the web. they always have they always will. When I have discussions with my real life friends, 40kers and associates about DMO, those who know the lore and have played as long as I have have a wildly different reaction than the internet nerd ragers. It is a reaction of, hmm cool sounds like the "Eye of Terror Online."
However, It is extremely alarming to me that the majority of posters here dont understand the nature of the lore very well and are willing to lambast a product that hasnt even come out yet based on thier own misperceptions regarding the lore. I must restate I totally respect people having thier own interpretations of the lore, but the 2 factions system is part of this lore and allainces are part of this lore as well, GW made it flexible that way for a reason.
again, in matters such as this it has never bothered me to be in th minority on the internet. I present my arguement, I present facts to back it up. This internet rage is no different than it was on the VN boards when DAoC was goign strong. I found myself in the minority there too.. Defending what I thought was a fantastic game to an endless swarm of haters who would have you believe that Mythic may as well have shot Kennedy when they released DAoC cuase it was the most terrible game ever made. I mean have you ever been to the world of warcraft forums... I have literally seen the developers get death threats there. Over a game.
EDIT: I really did try not to make a wall of text.
Please read this interview:
http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2010/08/23/inquisition-dark-millenium-online-interview/
Here are 2 quotes from that interview:
"RPS: So, you haven’t released a great deal of information on the game yet. Is this going to be a traditional MMORPG?
Tim Campbell: We look at it like, there’s two layers to an MMO. There’s the upper layer, which is progression, merchants, getting abilities and all that kind of stuff, and we have some twists and turns in there but for the most part it’ll be quite similar to the other MMOs out there.
Where we want to innovate is in the basic, moment-to-moment gameplay. The first thing we realised is that if you try to do traditional MM]O combat with guns, it doesn’t work. You have like, a tank with a gun? It doesn’t make sense. And because the IP is really visceral and powerful, we wanted to amp the action up. So, it’s much more action-based. But we don’t want to talk about that just yet.
What I will say is that walking through these halls, you can spot an MMO from forty feet away. There’s something about ‘em. They’ve got a million buttons, and you target enemies and attack them, and the whole thing is so easily identifiable. But because of our presentation and interface, if you walked by our game on the show floor, you wouldn’t think it was an MMO. At that level, it doesn’t play like an MMO.
"
Quote number 2.
RPS: How do you feel about Warhammer Online: Age of Reckoning?
TC: I played it, I enjoyed it. I don’t really like to talk about other people’s projects, but I think that did fall into the category of a more traditional MMO, and we don’t. You go on missions and you gain levels; we have all the trappings that make you feel attached to the game and the community, but what you’re doing- the thing with an MMO is that you never talk about what you did in the game. You might say that you got cool loot, or you killed this boss, but you never say- like, if you’d played Left 4 Dead, you’d be like “We were in the carnival, and a guy shot the car, and it was crazy, and one of the Smokers got one of our guys who got dragged off on his own!”
The physical acts you did. That’s what you’re talking about. And in an MMO, you say- “I pulled a mob and killed it”? Everybody does that in every MMO in every hallway. You just never talk about it.
that sure doesnt sound like wow to me.
A game that is familiar to WoW players wont take features from WoW? It might have a few extra toys but I bet the familiar bits are the character progression and quest structure and loot emphasised game play.
Currently playing:
EVE online (Ruining low sec one hotdrop at a time)
Gravity Rush,
Dishonoured: The Knife of Dunwall.
(Waiting for) Metro: Last Light,
Company of Heroes II.
Did you watch the interviews I posted? did you read the interviews I posted? I also tried to highlight the ways they said it would be familiar to wow players and more importantly how it would not be like wow
"but I bet the familiar bits are the character progression and quest structure and loot emphasised game play."
Yes you bet... well how about waiting for more information before you state how "disgusted" you are with the game and how you will never play it.
As far as character progression and quests, yes they have said those types of things are in the game but maybe not like you are used to thinking.
As for loot based gameplay, YES, i agree it sucks, thats a major sticking point for me too and it is what I really hated about WOW. I hope they follow suit with GW2 and make the better loot prettier and only very slightly more powerful, so at least I still ahve a chance with SKILL. But again, Ill have to wait and see, there is no information available on that yet.
Very disappointing to hear, but can you honestly saying it's a suprise. Look on the bright side, if it follows trend they'll be thinking of making f2p within a year or two, so it may not cost you anything to muck about with.
As a side note, its painfully obvious who read the first post and spewed in the thread rather than becomming part of the conversation.
EDIT: Garkan this does not refer to you becuase at least you are involved in the conversation.
I think you are grasping at straws now because you seem unable to see what most people see, are you that desperate for a 40k MMO that you will accept anything offered?
Most fans hate the idea of two factions yet you defend it, most fans see how GW have let THQ rape fluff before yet you defend it, most fans see from interviews and previous games how they will make it ape WoW yet you defend it.
No one can help you to see if you are blinded by, something, I cannot understand what though.
Currently playing:
EVE online (Ruining low sec one hotdrop at a time)
Gravity Rush,
Dishonoured: The Knife of Dunwall.
(Waiting for) Metro: Last Light,
Company of Heroes II.
I think you are barking up the wrong tree man... i presented the facts.. I dont agree with the ineternet hate squad... I dont agree with the rampant "wowclone" swarm, I present facts, I actually read the peviews I actually follow the interviews... did you read the links I posted? did you watch the interview?
I dont succumb to rampant internet mania. I am not grasping at straws for anythign. I simply choose to wait till when I have actual facts before I make descicions about a game... something that most peopel here have failed to do. I see the facts... I may hate this game, I may enjoy this game, but right now... based on the information, there is nothing to suggest that its bad or lore breaking...NOTHING.
I think you are grasping at straws becuase you dont have a logical position for your disgust in a game that is 2 years from being released and has broken NO lore rules at all. The "majority rules" stance is for people who cant present thier own arguements. Many non gamers I have met throughout my life have looked down upon gamers and think of them as inferior geeks. They must be right becuase the majority thinks so. Bullshit. Like I said, the internet is full of haters.... go ahead, ride the hater wave, its your choice. I choose to remain cuatiously optimistic and hope for a fun and engaging product that does the 40k franchise justice, and there has been nothing released to tell me it wont, NOTHING. I wanted to like WAR, but I was extremely critical of it becuase it fell sooo short of what it could have been. DMO could turn out horribly, it could turn out fantastic, I dont have enough evidence to make that assesment.
I must state however, that I am certainly understanding of people being dissapointed that it isnt multiple factions... thats fine, I totally understand that. Its when those people claim 2 factions breaks the lore or it is somehow inately inferior design wise that I laugh my ass off.
seriously, if you are as old as you state you are you would realize that majority on any given subject doesnt mean shit. read the peviews/interviews I presented, they will prove that they are not designing a wow clone. read the lore, and follow the 40k game, it will prove that 2 factions isnt a lore screw... bottom line; sorry man. internet haters... hate on, every MMO has its irrational haters and this one is no different.
Yes, how dare anyone respond to the op rather than to you?????????
Because this thread has since proven the original post definitively wrong. Anyone still ranting and raving about lore rape or WoW cloning is either mentally retarded and incapable of changing a preconcieved notion, or outright trolling to see how far a rational person will go in proving them wrong before they snap.
Since the interview you chicken littles have been quoting, there have been two follow up interviews that have asked about this VERY THING. First, they asked in the video interview done at gamescom what the producer (who hasn't actually done a goddamn thing in terms of developing, designing or creating the game) meant when the game would be friendly to the world of warcraft players. Their response was that the game would still have social interactions and an open seamless world, and in that spirit it was a "MMORPG." They then went on to say that in the moment to moment gameplay, the very buiding blocks on which the WHOLE GAME would be built, are COMPLETELY DIFFERENT. There is no tab targeting, no HUD large enough to confuse an airforce pilot, no dozens of buttons for every minorly different attack and so on.
Second, there was the interview done by PC gamer. In it, they actually admitted to making a 40k WoW clone and COMPLETELY SCRAPPING THE PROJECT. It was, and I quote, "lousy. It didn’t fit with the game played on tabletops across the world, it didn’t fit the team’s imagined experience, and most importantly, it didn’t fit with 40K’s endless, rapid-fire carnage." They have since dedicated the game to a style of gameplay much more fitting of the IP. (http://www.pcgamer.com/2010/12/04/warhammer-40k-dark-millennium-online-a-grim-dark-future/)
And as for the Lore aspect, Uni and I have shown repeatedly how the 40k universe lends itself to temporary truces in the face of a larger objective. Those of you whining and moaning about how it's destroying the IP have your own little version of it you like better and are just choosing not to accept the IP as a whole. So go on, hide in your little hole and deny that this game not only exists, but is more faithful to the IP on the grand scale than your narrow "RAWR GRIMDARK!" version of it.
I reckon reading general chat and seeing Space Marines make chuck norris jokes is gonna be a downer.
If this had 3 RACES (screw factions - too limited for this IP) to start with and played like Planetside..that woulda been amazing.
Hopefully one year some skilfull company with $$$ will make a 40K 'sandbox' game...although 40K IP is super difficult to pull off in a MMorpg (in a way the universe is TOO huge and varied).
I meant you should read a little deeper before you post.
HAHA, yeah, theres nothign you can do about the CNJ. other than maybe play on an RP server... this may be the first game where I attempt to do so. I usually cant be bothered with it.
This brings up much more truth than most other posts. People are arguing about destruction of lore in a game that will inevitably have space marines with 7 different spellings of every primarch's name (and at least double that for all the traitor primarchs) on every server. Then there will be the inevitable naked Eldar running around abusing every naughty emote they can find, orks doing the same thing for exactly the opposite effect, and the return of just about every /tg/ joke ever created.
Any immersion that would be gained by a free-for-all game would immediately be lost when people get involved. This is the internet for God sake.