Rift probably isn't the best example, since Trion is both developer and publisher. That affords them more control over their IP and the direction of the game. When you have an outside publisher (or, with some titles, two or three publishers), they have a certain amount of stake in the product and sometimes a cartain amount of influence in the design or marketing of the game.
To my knowledge, Publishers have no control over the IP. Only a licensing agreement allowing them to publish in an area, but they have no control nor the ability to bring changes to the game, only the Developers does. I could be wrong though, so if someone can bring more hindsight on Publishers, would be great.
Although I'm not really a fan of Wikipedia as a source for anything, this seems reasonably accurate:
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Rift probably isn't the best example, since Trion is both developer and publisher. That affords them more control over their IP and the direction of the game. When you have an outside publisher (or, with some titles, two or three publishers), they have a certain amount of stake in the product and sometimes a cartain amount of influence in the design or marketing of the game.
To my knowledge, Publishers have no control over the IP. Only a licensing agreement allowing them to publish in an area, but they have no control nor the ability to bring changes to the game, only the Developers does. I could be wrong though, so if someone can bring more hindsight on Publishers, would be great.
Although I'm not really a fan of Wikipedia as a source for anything, this seems reasonably accurate:
Based on the Wiki, it's mostly the larger Publisher companies that tries to push the developers around too much. Would seem accurate if you look at Mythic/EA (Warhammer), Cryptic/Atari (Champion Online, Star Trek Online), SOE and non-MMO published by EA or Activision (Call Of Duty, Guitar Hero, etc).
I dont' knwo what Xsyon is. But does Xsyon even make that much money?
Because if it's not, maybe developer deamed those featuer not that important, or not worth the investment.
There has been a slight increase in discussions regarding Xsyon since release date was announced (or perhaps it's already released? not sure), but it's a very small niche MMORPG.
Rift probably isn't the best example, since Trion is both developer and publisher. That affords them more control over their IP and the direction of the game. When you have an outside publisher (or, with some titles, two or three publishers), they have a certain amount of stake in the product and sometimes a cartain amount of influence in the design or marketing of the game.
To my knowledge, Publishers have no control over the IP. Only a licensing agreement allowing them to publish in an area, but they have no control nor the ability to bring changes to the game, only the Developers does. I could be wrong though, so if someone can bring more hindsight on Publishers, would be great.
Unless my mind is failing me...
Isn't SOE a publisher?
SOE is more than a publisher, and owns the IP rights over many of their MMOs (Vanguard, EQ, EQ2, etc), or some of their MMOs are developed by divisions of Sony Online Entertainment LLC.
But for exemple, EQ was a product of Verant Interactive launched in 1999 and published by SOE. SOE bought Verant Interactive in 2000 and became Sony Online Entertainment LLC.
So it was SOE the developer, not SOE the publisher, which "Destroyed" SWG Pre-CU?
SWG Pre-CU sucked donkey A$$. Get over it. The Combat Upgrade should have never been removed, it was the best sytem that the game ever had. All it needed was the content that the game has now, a heavy bug bash, and CH re-added. If that had happened, you would never have heard of a full-on WoW clone named SW:TOR. Pre-CU is exactly where it should be, dead and buried for the last 6 years.
Now, as to the question: Why can't AAA MMO's do what indie developers do? Simple. THEY CAN'T DO ANYTHING NOWADAYS UNTIL BLIZZARD DOES IT FIRST.
Now, as to the question: Why can't AAA MMO's do what indie developers do? Simple. THEY CAN'T DO ANYTHING NOWADAYS UNTIL BLIZZARD DOES IT FIRST.
Not true at all. The thing is that it is a lo easier for a small independant studio to do what they want. Large companies have investors, publishers and many other people who prefer playing safe instead of betting their company on some new ideas.
Indie companies have less to loose and more to gain by taking a chance compared to a company like Blizzard or Bioware.
And some AAA companies do make different things. Arenanet have always gone their own way and I don't think you can call CCP a indie company anymore either, particularly since it merged with White wolf and now also is the second largest publisher of P&P RPGs out there under WOC.
Most companies, like SOE, Cryptic and Turbine play safe because their stockholders and CEOs prefer it that way. But it is far from truth about all companies just like what you say makes it sound like Blizzard is taking any chances, Blizzard done very few things first.
Indie companies have less to loose and more to gain by taking a chance compared to a company like Blizzard or Bioware.
Indie companies may have less money to lose compared to larger game developer studios, but they are also the one with the highest chance of going bankrupt if something goes wrong. Spellborn Inc. comes to mind.
Making an MMO cost a lot of money, often far more than Indie companies can handle. It's a very big gamble. You have developers cost (because they won't work for free right?), Server cost, Publisher takes a cut if there's one, then you have the taxes and all for the company.....it's a big gamble for Indie developers to work on an MMO, and can definitively threaten their company if something goes wrong.
Large game developer studios on the other hand, have quite a bit of money to spare and would be able to invest and take a risk, they simply choose not to.
Indie companies have less to loose and more to gain by taking a chance compared to a company like Blizzard or Bioware.
Indie companies often have more to lose - much much more to lose. Many times they are funded by personal loans, second mortgages and team cash. It takes a lot of balls to do what Flying Lab, CCP and Three Rings and several other companies did. They put everything they had on the line to make their games.
When you have a pile of cash backing you and no personal investment you end up with developers that spend all their money on drugs and parties, create half-assed crap based on ill-conceived pipe dreams, get their entire studio closed down... and then just go work somewhere else in the industry. It cost them nothing. An actual indie developer - not the clown that scribbles a 'great idea' on a piece of paper and calls himself a game designer, but real indie developers - do not have the luxury of saying "Meh, it's crap but we met the release date." If it's crap, they could lose their job, their house, their entire life savings... or worse.
That's why I admire indie devs, and why it almost infuriates me when people arrogantly claim that title just to be cool. Indie devs take incredible risks and often make huge sacrifices in pursuit of their dreams. Failure means not only personal loss, but can very well affect the team that followed them on their dream as well.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Indie developers are more willing to take risks to get noticed than AAA developers. It has a lot to do with where their respective funding comes from. A large developer is more likely to go with whatever the current trend is(Themepark) than go out on a limb to try new things. This is a lot easier to pitch to their investors than something that has never been proven successful in a AAA MMORPG. What we need to change this genre is for one of these Indie developers to make an actual hit game to make the AAA developers to take notice. The closest so far is EVE Online but even that is no challenge to some of the AAA fantasy based themepark MMOs out there. Until we see a sandbox MMO hit sub numbers in the millions we will be stuck in this themepark MMO rut we seem to be in.
those indi dev's come up with some off the wall and sometimes innovative features allright. But first off, how many of them actually work? Let alone work in a MMO? Is the trouble of developing those features worth what they add to the game?
Letting players physicall affect terrain in a game seems like quite possibly the dumbest idea i've seen for the simple fact that players are stupid, disruptive and almost never follow the spirit of the world and will end up making something stupid like a big penis effigy mound, or as i saw in a screenshot here a swastika out of campfires.
All that aside, how many indie developers have actually made a GAME that's good, not just a list of interesting features? I can tell the OP is talking about that goofy xyson game. From what i can tell it has absolutely no content, barely works and is nothing more than a dirt moving sim. I get that some people might find that compelling, but i don't.
I enjoy reading about what Indie developers are planing and putting out but personally I am rather ashamed to admit this have not invested in any. I always think it is a good idea someone else can support. It is like recycling unless I am forced to by law like here in Europe to do it have not bothered with before because someone else is doing it .I rationalise this and work it out that there are people supporting Indie developers so I don't have to. It is perhaps exactly why they do not succeed because too many people think like me.
They have fantastic ideas then I just read about them and watch them launch and see the issues and in my head I tell myself ahh well good thing I did not buy it but what happened to me preaching that not enough people support Indie develoeprs oh yes that is for the other guy not me. I end up playing big budget games well it helps also that I am not open PvP orientated then I can pop in and show my support while using open PvP as the reason to abstain from buying or subbling. Ahh the price of trying to be cool while keeping my perfectly bland choices to myself.
On the other hand games like Xsyon offer a gameplay that is horrific and crippled, and it just shows that this sort of development unless you have a big budget is like a leaking barrel, you can address gameplay and add more depth to it but it will leak somewhere else, you just wont have enough hands to stop it all, and that to me is a big no no, you can be of the opinion that gameplay is greater than gfx and we can be here all day but I am looking for the complete pack im afraid, I just wont take less than a good gfx, polished and fluid gameplay MMO with those features.
Indie development is really fun and all, and I commend them for trying but without a decent budget most of these games turn out to be crippled, good ideas but lack of a good and solid development, bugs and glitches, lag and jittering.
On the other hand games like Xsyon offer a gameplay that is horrific and crippled, and it just shows that this sort of development unless you have a big budget is like a leaking barrel, you can address gameplay and add more depth to it but it will leak somewhere else, you just wont have enough hands to stop it all, and that to me is a big no no, you can be of the opinion that gameplay is greater than gfx and we can be here all day but I am looking for the complete pack im afraid, I just wont take less than a good gfx, polished and fluid gameplay MMO with those features.
Indie development is really fun and all, and I commend them for trying but without a decent budget most of these games turn out to be crippled, good ideas but lack of a good and solid development, bugs and glitches, lag and jittering.
ArchAge's developers made a pretty big deal with a popular Chinese Publisher, so that ought to have helped them a lot. Definitively a game that sets itself apart, as they apparently based themselves a lot on UO. Should be interesting to see how this game goes once it hits NA (and I believe it will).
those indi dev's come up with some off the wall and sometimes innovative features allright. But first off, how many of them actually work? Let alone work in a MMO? Is the trouble of developing those features worth what they add to the game?
Letting players physicall affect terrain in a game seems like quite possibly the dumbest idea i've seen for the simple fact that players are stupid, disruptive and almost never follow the spirit of the world and will end up making something stupid like a big penis effigy mound, or as i saw in a screenshot here a swastika out of campfires.
All that aside, how many indie developers have actually made a GAME that's good, not just a list of interesting features? I can tell the OP is talking about that goofy xyson game. From what i can tell it has absolutely no content, barely works and is nothing more than a dirt moving sim. I get that some people might find that compelling, but i don't.
Open PvP, No NPCs, create your own content, full price with sub game that isn't the greatest in the graphics department. I like some of the features listed, but the game itself doesn't seem appealing at all. Triple As could and probably should look at throwing in some of the more innovative ideas, but the money lost for them on something like this would be huge because they put a lot of money into their games and only a small amount of people would want something like this. I like the idea of a living eco system, but I just see someone in a rage a drunkin spree (not age or gender specific) wiping out areas one night just to laugh about it later.
parrotpholk-Because we all know the miracle patch fairy shows up the night before release and sprinkles magic dust on the server to make it allllll better.
But a lot of those features are very atmosphere oriented. They pull you into the world. Why wouldn't a AAA company want that?
Because they're prioritizing game-building over world-building?
I'm ashamed that this post was the first to acknowledge that AAA titles tend to focus on making a good game before adding barely noticable fluff. They wasted potentially hundreds or thousands of manhours on something that the player may or may not notice at all. First objective of the developers should be making a polished, strong core gameplay and only then worry about fluff features.
Why don't the big companies do such things? Because they are not "game making" features. In other words no one is going to seriously make up their mind about buying the game because his/her character shows visible aging. Additionally having chance to gain or shed weight of your character doesn't necessarily make it a good game. You could have all the realism you want in it but if the core gameplay sucks, the whole game sucks.
For example Fable was made with big money, and it had all sorts of useless features in it. Was it a good game? -First one, maybe. Second and third? -Not so much. And both of the latest versions had more and more fluff in them. Great majority of gamers skipped most, if not all, that fluff. Core gameplay stayed the same or in some cases got worse. Personally, I gave up on the series upon discovering where they had wasted their manhours.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
But a lot of those features are very atmosphere oriented. They pull you into the world. Why wouldn't a AAA company want that?
Because they're prioritizing game-building over world-building?
I'm ashamed that this post was the first to acknowledge that AAA titles tend to focus on making a good game before adding barely noticable fluff. They wasted potentially hundreds or thousands of manhours on something that the player may or may not notice at all. First objective of the developers should be making a polished, strong core gameplay and only then worry about fluff features.
Why don't the big companies do such things? Because they are not "game making" features. In other words no one is going to seriously make up their mind about buying the game because his/her character shows visible aging. Additionally having chance to gain or shed weight of your character doesn't necessarily make it a good game. You could have all the realism you want in it but if the core gameplay sucks, the whole game sucks.
For example Fable was made with big money, and it had all sorts of useless features in it. Was it a good game? -First one, maybe. Second and third? -Not so much. And both of the latest versions had more and more fluff in them. Great majority of gamers skipped most, if not all, that fluff. Core gameplay stayed the same or in some cases got worse. Personally, I gave up on the series upon discovering where they had wasted their manhours.
I agree with you. It's not that AAA developers cannot do these things. They choose to focus on other features.
Are the things listed in the OP's post cool ideas? They sure are. But are they the kind of things that keep people playing every day and paying a monthly subscription for? That I wouldn't be so sure about.
But a lot of those features are very atmosphere oriented. They pull you into the world. Why wouldn't a AAA company want that?
Because they're prioritizing game-building over world-building?
I'm ashamed that this post was the first to acknowledge that AAA titles tend to focus on making a good game before adding barely noticable fluff. They wasted potentially hundreds or thousands of manhours on something that the player may or may not notice at all. First objective of the developers should be making a polished, strong core gameplay and only then worry about fluff features.
Why don't the big companies do such things? Because they are not "game making" features. In other words no one is going to seriously make up their mind about buying the game because his/her character shows visible aging. Additionally having chance to gain or shed weight of your character doesn't necessarily make it a good game. You could have all the realism you want in it but if the core gameplay sucks, the whole game sucks.
For example Fable was made with big money, and it had all sorts of useless features in it. Was it a good game? -First one, maybe. Second and third? -Not so much. And both of the latest versions had more and more fluff in them. Great majority of gamers skipped most, if not all, that fluff. Core gameplay stayed the same or in some cases got worse. Personally, I gave up on the series upon discovering where they had wasted their manhours.
I agree with you. It's not that AAA developers cannot do these things. They choose to focus on other features.
Are the things listed in the OP's post cool ideas? They sure are. But are they the kind of things that keep people playing every day and paying a monthly subscription for? That I wouldn't be so sure about.
I think that these type of features make a person play longer because it improves immersion.
Indie companies have less to loose and more to gain by taking a chance compared to a company like Blizzard or Bioware.
Indie companies often have more to lose - much much more to lose.
Perhaps when it comes to possibly investing their own lives and money, yea. But the AMOUNT of money? No. Companies like Blizzard/Bioware have ACTUAL more to lose. In fact... I completely disagree.
If Blizzard or Bioware makes a very bad move, costing them all or most of what they invested, that might mean job loss for THOUSANDS of people, not just a handful (indie devs).
AAA companies have more to lose, because they employ more people who rely on this. And if you think it's really "that" easy to get a job after a massive layoff from a company like Blizzard or Bioware...you've got to be kidding.
Many times they are funded by personal loans, second mortgages and team cash. It takes a lot of balls to do what Flying Lab, CCP and Three Rings and several other companies did. They put everything they had on the line to make their games.
Just like how big corporations put the lives of thousands AND those thousand's families as well. Do you think that when Enron went down, everyone ended up employed and happy 3 days later??? ...Really???
When you have a pile of cash backing you and no personal investment you end up with developers that spend all their money on drugs and parties
Um...whoa. If it's the company's money, I doubt they are spending it on drugs and parties (perhaps a pizza party for someone's birthday maybe) but certainly not drugs and prostitutes. If it is their own money...it doesn't matter what they do with it, although those things would end up costing the company efficiency in those employees, but still.
, create half-assed crap based on ill-conceived pipe dreams, get their entire studio closed down...
It's amazing that you claim to be a part of the "industry" yet accuse most developers as not caring about their job or the game they make. Arguably I'd be with you on this one...but human nature does seem to indicate that many would put a lot of effort into seeing it become a success solely because those developers want to further their career. There's at least some like that, even if it's a selfish full-assed motivation.
and then just go work somewhere else in the industry.
Really? Someone who barely shows up to work (who is presumed to be on drugs and hung over) and singlehandedly causes a studio to fail...can just pop right into the next major company with the same...nay..a BETTER job?
"Oooo...YOU'RE the guy who singlehandedly bankrupted Blizzard the mega-corp gaming giant? Wow! We want you to bet he new CEO of Electronic Arts!"
It cost them nothing.
Besides their careers and livelihood...
An actual indie developer - not the clown that scribbles a 'great idea' on a piece of paper and calls himself a game designer, but real indie developers - do not have the luxury of saying "Meh, it's crap but we met the release date." If it's crap, they could lose their job, their house, their entire life savings... or worse.
According to this poster, although I am an indie dev who has invested thousands in his own MMORPG, which means I have "more to lose" than a AAA company, yet in past discussions this same poster claims that since I am an indie developer I am not a "real" developer, my artwork does not exist and my paycheck for the MMORPG company I work for is fake.
So everyone who is indie, except people who are indie, sacrifice it all, unless they invest it all, in which they are not actually real. In fact...I'm not even a real human be......*fades out like Back to the Future* ....Nooooooo....
That's why I admire indie devs,
Except you don't.
and why it almost infuriates me when people arrogantly claim that title just to be cool.
Oh, I see. So evidence to prove we have the skills (http://2dsprites.webs.com/fantasypack.htm) to make a game somehow exempts us from being indie devs, even though we invest our own money into our games.
Indie devs take incredible risks and often make huge sacrifices in pursuit of their dreams. Failure means not only personal loss, but can very well affect the team that followed them on their dream as well.
The same with companies, which can have massive layoffs which not only affect every employee, but their families, and inevitably the hurting economy as a whole.
I am glad I decided to peak in through my ignore list and see this post, because it's full of contradictions. Large major companies have more to lose than indie developers, and most people in the industry don't spend Blizzard's, EA's, or Bioware's millions on drugs and parties.
Let's wake up to reality please. And if you still don't believe I am work for a MMORPG game company making 2D graphics, I challenge you...TO A DUEL!
EN GUARDE!
If being a developer means being quiet, mature, well-spoken, and disconnected from the community, then by all means do me a favor and believe I'm not one.
1) You're talking about dollar amounts. I'm talking about relative amount. A major publisher can throw a pile of cash at a project and if it sinks, they took a big loss but they move on. For a lot of indie devs, they have everything riding on the line for their project.
2) the party and drugs thing was referring specifcally to Sigil.
3) If you are a developer and you have produced games, then obviously that part of my post wasn't referring to you, right?
I don't know how you reached some of your conclusions from what I wrote or why you want to get into a pissing match, but please keep it off the boards and stick to the topic.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
No I'm not. If you actually read what I wrote, I was talking about THOUSANDS of employees, families, and lives which entirely depend on a AAA title's success. A big failure can destroy not only thousands of people's lives, but also the economy itself.
I'm talking about relative amount. A major publisher can throw a pile of cash at a project and if it sinks, they took a big loss but they move on.
Along with thousands of laid off employees who have to "move on" straight to the poor house.
For a lot of indie devs, they have everything riding on the line for their project.
Just like the careers and jobs of thousands of employees in big corporations.
2) the party and drugs thing was a referring specifcally to Sigil.
Sigil had drug parties? Link please.
3) If you are a developer and you have produced games, then obviously my post wasn't referring to you, right?
Your private messages were. What you say in your post directly conflicts with what you say in PM's.
I don't know how you reached some of your conclusions from what I wrote or why you want to get into a pissing match, but please keep it off the boards and stick to the topic.
This is about the topic. Large corporations have MORE to lose.
If being a developer means being quiet, mature, well-spoken, and disconnected from the community, then by all means do me a favor and believe I'm not one.
This is about the topic. Large corporations have MORE to lose.
I really have to disagree. Again, as Loktofeit and I mentionned, Indie developers must put a pool a lot of money for their MMOs, often using personal loans, mortgage, etc to get enough money to launch their MMO. It's a hit or miss. If they miss, I wish them good luck to repay those mortgages and loans, because that's going to take a while to pay back if they don't want to declare bankruptcy. Spellborn Inc. (The Chronicles Of Spellborn) has gone bankrupt, and it's not pretty.
Large MMO Companies will of course put a lot of money on the table, but they already have multiple source of revenues, it allows them to lesser the impact of the loss, should their MMO "fail" to reach it's audience. The company itself would take a hit as far as their credibility goes, but trust can be rebuilt.
Indie Developers don't have that luxury. Bankruptcy....that follows you forever.
This is about the topic. Large corporations have MORE to lose.
I really have to disagree. Again, as Loktofeit and I mentionned, Indie developers must put a pool a lot of money for their MMOs, often using personal loans, mortgage, etc to get enough money to launch their MMO. It's a hit or miss. If they miss, I wish them good luck to repay those mortgages and loans, because that's going to take a while to pay back if they don't want to declare bankruptcy. Spellborn Inc. (The Chronicles Of Spellborn) has gone bankrupt, and it's not pretty.
Large MMO Companies will of course put a lot of money on the table, but they already have multiple source of revenues, it allows them to lesser the impact of the loss, should their MMO "fail" to reach it's audience. The company itself would take a hit as far as their credibility goes, but trust can be rebuilt.
Indie Developers don't have that luxury. Bankruptcy....that follows you forever.
So the possible loss of thousands of employees who depend on their jobs trumps the loss of one who took out a loan??
Did you even read my post? This is the THIRD time I mentioned that large MMO companies have THOUSANDS of employees who depend on a game's success. If the game is a total failure and they lose hundreds of millions (or a similar amount compared to an indie dev's loss) they would have massive layoffs and pay cuts.
Imagine the impact to the economy if Blizzard went backrupt because the next 5 MMORPG's it invests hundreds of millions in flop to not even give them half of that back.
Large Companies are more than just a faceless corporation. They employee entire families who survive on these people's jobs, which they will lose if the company begins to suffer.
If being a developer means being quiet, mature, well-spoken, and disconnected from the community, then by all means do me a favor and believe I'm not one.
This is about the topic. Large corporations have MORE to lose.
I really have to disagree. Again, as Loktofeit and I mentionned, Indie developers must put a pool a lot of money for their MMOs, often using personal loans, mortgage, etc to get enough money to launch their MMO. It's a hit or miss. If they miss, I wish them good luck to repay those mortgages and loans, because that's going to take a while to pay back if they don't want to declare bankruptcy. Spellborn Inc. (The Chronicles Of Spellborn) has gone bankrupt, and it's not pretty.
Large MMO Companies will of course put a lot of money on the table, but they already have multiple source of revenues, it allows them to lesser the impact of the loss, should their MMO "fail" to reach it's audience. The company itself would take a hit as far as their credibility goes, but trust can be rebuilt.
Indie Developers don't have that luxury. Bankruptcy....that follows you forever.
So the possible loss of thousands of employees who depend on their jobs trumps the loss of one who took out a loan??
Did you even read my post? This is the THIRD time I mentioned that large MMO companies have THOUSANDS of employees who depend on a game's success. If the game is a total failure and they lose hundreds of millions (or a similar amount compared to an indie dev's loss) they would have massive layoffs and pay cuts.
Imagine the impact to the economy if Blizzard went backrupt because the next 5 MMORPG's it invests hundreds of millions in flop to not even give them half of that back.
Large Companies are more than just a faceless corporation. They employee entire families who survive on these people's jobs, which they will lose if the company begins to suffer.
and in addition to the above you wrote (in red):
I'm talking about relative amount. A major publisher can throw a pile of cash at a project and if it sinks, they took a big loss but they move on.
Along with thousands of laid off employees who have to "move on" straight to the poor house.
For a lot of indie devs, they have everything riding on the line for their project.
Just like the careers and jobs of thousands of employees in big corporations.
You keep bringing up these thousands of jobs lost when an MMO gets the axe. I'm simply not familiar with a single instance, let aloneyour presentation as it being a normal scenario for any software publisher.
In the past 15 years of MMOs, when did the closing of an MMO - before, during or after release - result in thousands of jobs lost?
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Comments
Although I'm not really a fan of Wikipedia as a source for anything, this seems reasonably accurate:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_game_publisher
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Based on the Wiki, it's mostly the larger Publisher companies that tries to push the developers around too much. Would seem accurate if you look at Mythic/EA (Warhammer), Cryptic/Atari (Champion Online, Star Trek Online), SOE and non-MMO published by EA or Activision (Call Of Duty, Guitar Hero, etc).
Good read. I was half-right it seems .
I dont' knwo what Xsyon is. But does Xsyon even make that much money?
Because if it's not, maybe developer deamed those featuer not that important, or not worth the investment.
There has been a slight increase in discussions regarding Xsyon since release date was announced (or perhaps it's already released? not sure), but it's a very small niche MMORPG.
SWG Pre-CU sucked donkey A$$. Get over it. The Combat Upgrade should have never been removed, it was the best sytem that the game ever had. All it needed was the content that the game has now, a heavy bug bash, and CH re-added. If that had happened, you would never have heard of a full-on WoW clone named SW:TOR. Pre-CU is exactly where it should be, dead and buried for the last 6 years.
Now, as to the question: Why can't AAA MMO's do what indie developers do? Simple. THEY CAN'T DO ANYTHING NOWADAYS UNTIL BLIZZARD DOES IT FIRST.
Not true at all. The thing is that it is a lo easier for a small independant studio to do what they want. Large companies have investors, publishers and many other people who prefer playing safe instead of betting their company on some new ideas.
Indie companies have less to loose and more to gain by taking a chance compared to a company like Blizzard or Bioware.
And some AAA companies do make different things. Arenanet have always gone their own way and I don't think you can call CCP a indie company anymore either, particularly since it merged with White wolf and now also is the second largest publisher of P&P RPGs out there under WOC.
Most companies, like SOE, Cryptic and Turbine play safe because their stockholders and CEOs prefer it that way. But it is far from truth about all companies just like what you say makes it sound like Blizzard is taking any chances, Blizzard done very few things first.
Indie companies may have less money to lose compared to larger game developer studios, but they are also the one with the highest chance of going bankrupt if something goes wrong. Spellborn Inc. comes to mind.
Making an MMO cost a lot of money, often far more than Indie companies can handle. It's a very big gamble. You have developers cost (because they won't work for free right?), Server cost, Publisher takes a cut if there's one, then you have the taxes and all for the company.....it's a big gamble for Indie developers to work on an MMO, and can definitively threaten their company if something goes wrong.
Large game developer studios on the other hand, have quite a bit of money to spare and would be able to invest and take a risk, they simply choose not to.
Indie companies often have more to lose - much much more to lose. Many times they are funded by personal loans, second mortgages and team cash. It takes a lot of balls to do what Flying Lab, CCP and Three Rings and several other companies did. They put everything they had on the line to make their games.
When you have a pile of cash backing you and no personal investment you end up with developers that spend all their money on drugs and parties, create half-assed crap based on ill-conceived pipe dreams, get their entire studio closed down... and then just go work somewhere else in the industry. It cost them nothing. An actual indie developer - not the clown that scribbles a 'great idea' on a piece of paper and calls himself a game designer, but real indie developers - do not have the luxury of saying "Meh, it's crap but we met the release date." If it's crap, they could lose their job, their house, their entire life savings... or worse.
That's why I admire indie devs, and why it almost infuriates me when people arrogantly claim that title just to be cool. Indie devs take incredible risks and often make huge sacrifices in pursuit of their dreams. Failure means not only personal loss, but can very well affect the team that followed them on their dream as well.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Indie developers are more willing to take risks to get noticed than AAA developers. It has a lot to do with where their respective funding comes from. A large developer is more likely to go with whatever the current trend is(Themepark) than go out on a limb to try new things. This is a lot easier to pitch to their investors than something that has never been proven successful in a AAA MMORPG. What we need to change this genre is for one of these Indie developers to make an actual hit game to make the AAA developers to take notice. The closest so far is EVE Online but even that is no challenge to some of the AAA fantasy based themepark MMOs out there. Until we see a sandbox MMO hit sub numbers in the millions we will be stuck in this themepark MMO rut we seem to be in.
Bren
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those indi dev's come up with some off the wall and sometimes innovative features allright. But first off, how many of them actually work? Let alone work in a MMO? Is the trouble of developing those features worth what they add to the game?
Letting players physicall affect terrain in a game seems like quite possibly the dumbest idea i've seen for the simple fact that players are stupid, disruptive and almost never follow the spirit of the world and will end up making something stupid like a big penis effigy mound, or as i saw in a screenshot here a swastika out of campfires.
All that aside, how many indie developers have actually made a GAME that's good, not just a list of interesting features? I can tell the OP is talking about that goofy xyson game. From what i can tell it has absolutely no content, barely works and is nothing more than a dirt moving sim. I get that some people might find that compelling, but i don't.
I enjoy reading about what Indie developers are planing and putting out but personally I am rather ashamed to admit this have not invested in any. I always think it is a good idea someone else can support. It is like recycling unless I am forced to by law like here in Europe to do it have not bothered with before because someone else is doing it .I rationalise this and work it out that there are people supporting Indie developers so I don't have to. It is perhaps exactly why they do not succeed because too many people think like me.
They have fantastic ideas then I just read about them and watch them launch and see the issues and in my head I tell myself ahh well good thing I did not buy it but what happened to me preaching that not enough people support Indie develoeprs oh yes that is for the other guy not me. I end up playing big budget games well it helps also that I am not open PvP orientated then I can pop in and show my support while using open PvP as the reason to abstain from buying or subbling. Ahh the price of trying to be cool while keeping my perfectly bland choices to myself.
On the other hand games like Xsyon offer a gameplay that is horrific and crippled, and it just shows that this sort of development unless you have a big budget is like a leaking barrel, you can address gameplay and add more depth to it but it will leak somewhere else, you just wont have enough hands to stop it all, and that to me is a big no no, you can be of the opinion that gameplay is greater than gfx and we can be here all day but I am looking for the complete pack im afraid, I just wont take less than a good gfx, polished and fluid gameplay MMO with those features.
Indie development is really fun and all, and I commend them for trying but without a decent budget most of these games turn out to be crippled, good ideas but lack of a good and solid development, bugs and glitches, lag and jittering.
With a bigger budget tho, this may be possible:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzxGcY-y0J0&feature=related
ArchAge's developers made a pretty big deal with a popular Chinese Publisher, so that ought to have helped them a lot. Definitively a game that sets itself apart, as they apparently based themselves a lot on UO. Should be interesting to see how this game goes once it hits NA (and I believe it will).
Open PvP, No NPCs, create your own content, full price with sub game that isn't the greatest in the graphics department. I like some of the features listed, but the game itself doesn't seem appealing at all. Triple As could and probably should look at throwing in some of the more innovative ideas, but the money lost for them on something like this would be huge because they put a lot of money into their games and only a small amount of people would want something like this. I like the idea of a living eco system, but I just see someone in a rage a drunkin spree (not age or gender specific) wiping out areas one night just to laugh about it later.
parrotpholk-Because we all know the miracle patch fairy shows up the night before release and sprinkles magic dust on the server to make it allllll better.
I'm ashamed that this post was the first to acknowledge that AAA titles tend to focus on making a good game before adding barely noticable fluff. They wasted potentially hundreds or thousands of manhours on something that the player may or may not notice at all. First objective of the developers should be making a polished, strong core gameplay and only then worry about fluff features.
Why don't the big companies do such things? Because they are not "game making" features. In other words no one is going to seriously make up their mind about buying the game because his/her character shows visible aging. Additionally having chance to gain or shed weight of your character doesn't necessarily make it a good game. You could have all the realism you want in it but if the core gameplay sucks, the whole game sucks.
For example Fable was made with big money, and it had all sorts of useless features in it. Was it a good game? -First one, maybe. Second and third? -Not so much. And both of the latest versions had more and more fluff in them. Great majority of gamers skipped most, if not all, that fluff. Core gameplay stayed the same or in some cases got worse. Personally, I gave up on the series upon discovering where they had wasted their manhours.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
I agree with you. It's not that AAA developers cannot do these things. They choose to focus on other features.
Are the things listed in the OP's post cool ideas? They sure are. But are they the kind of things that keep people playing every day and paying a monthly subscription for? That I wouldn't be so sure about.
I think that these type of features make a person play longer because it improves immersion.
Immersion is a vague term.
If there's some success MMORPG, people will copy that.
Eve was successful another company copies everyhting and made Perpetuum.
I'm sure if Xyslon is making so much money other company will copy it too. The thing is I dont' know if it's really making that much money.
The point was that you wont even consider buying the game if it sucks. Immersion is not likely to turn that decision.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
I am glad I decided to peak in through my ignore list and see this post, because it's full of contradictions. Large major companies have more to lose than indie developers, and most people in the industry don't spend Blizzard's, EA's, or Bioware's millions on drugs and parties.
Let's wake up to reality please. And if you still don't believe I am work for a MMORPG game company making 2D graphics, I challenge you...TO A DUEL!
EN GUARDE!
If being a developer means being quiet, mature, well-spoken, and disconnected from the community, then by all means do me a favor and believe I'm not one.
Emergence
1) You're talking about dollar amounts. I'm talking about relative amount. A major publisher can throw a pile of cash at a project and if it sinks, they took a big loss but they move on. For a lot of indie devs, they have everything riding on the line for their project.
2) the party and drugs thing was referring specifcally to Sigil.
3) If you are a developer and you have produced games, then obviously that part of my post wasn't referring to you, right?
I don't know how you reached some of your conclusions from what I wrote or why you want to get into a pissing match, but please keep it off the boards and stick to the topic.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
If being a developer means being quiet, mature, well-spoken, and disconnected from the community, then by all means do me a favor and believe I'm not one.
I really have to disagree. Again, as Loktofeit and I mentionned, Indie developers must put a pool a lot of money for their MMOs, often using personal loans, mortgage, etc to get enough money to launch their MMO. It's a hit or miss. If they miss, I wish them good luck to repay those mortgages and loans, because that's going to take a while to pay back if they don't want to declare bankruptcy. Spellborn Inc. (The Chronicles Of Spellborn) has gone bankrupt, and it's not pretty.
Large MMO Companies will of course put a lot of money on the table, but they already have multiple source of revenues, it allows them to lesser the impact of the loss, should their MMO "fail" to reach it's audience. The company itself would take a hit as far as their credibility goes, but trust can be rebuilt.
Indie Developers don't have that luxury. Bankruptcy....that follows you forever.
So the possible loss of thousands of employees who depend on their jobs trumps the loss of one who took out a loan??
Did you even read my post? This is the THIRD time I mentioned that large MMO companies have THOUSANDS of employees who depend on a game's success. If the game is a total failure and they lose hundreds of millions (or a similar amount compared to an indie dev's loss) they would have massive layoffs and pay cuts.
Imagine the impact to the economy if Blizzard went backrupt because the next 5 MMORPG's it invests hundreds of millions in flop to not even give them half of that back.
Large Companies are more than just a faceless corporation. They employee entire families who survive on these people's jobs, which they will lose if the company begins to suffer.
If being a developer means being quiet, mature, well-spoken, and disconnected from the community, then by all means do me a favor and believe I'm not one.
and in addition to the above you wrote (in red):
I'm talking about relative amount. A major publisher can throw a pile of cash at a project and if it sinks, they took a big loss but they move on.
Along with thousands of laid off employees who have to "move on" straight to the poor house.
For a lot of indie devs, they have everything riding on the line for their project.
Just like the careers and jobs of thousands of employees in big corporations.
You keep bringing up these thousands of jobs lost when an MMO gets the axe. I'm simply not familiar with a single instance, let aloneyour presentation as it being a normal scenario for any software publisher.
In the past 15 years of MMOs, when did the closing of an MMO - before, during or after release - result in thousands of jobs lost?
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre