I think the idea is large game company dont' try to make games, they try to make money. Like Macdonald isn't in the fast food businiss, they are in the real estate business.
While small company makes games, they start with the blue print first then try to get funding after.
It's not really that AAA developers can't make it. They just deemed it not worth the time to make it.
Simplest answer is because those don't make the big bucks....games like that aim for 1 server capped out and thats it....because thats profit for them....big companies aim for multiple servers
Yeah that's the most straightforward way of putting it. This featureset appeals to the niche minority but doesn't strongly interest most people.
I really think they need new words to separate MMORPG's (million population games) to MMORPG's (thousand population games) and everywhere inbetween.
There are some things which "niche" doesn't actually apply to. Permadeath is not a "niche" feature, although people here would claim it to be. RTS and FPS games have permadeath, and rightfully so (although newer FPS games are beginning to add in RPG-like progress, which IMO is a bad move for the genre if done wrong (Call of Duty), but really fun if done right (BF2142)). It's different to have "Progress to Win" and "Progress to be Different".
A "niche" feature doesn't mean a niche game. A crappy copy of WoW doesn't necessarily mean millions of subs and money. A "niche" MMO doesn't necessarily mean it's not worth the investment.
EA, Sony, or Blizzard could do a "niche" game and still make a profit. All that would be required is to not spend hundreds of millions invested in that "niche" game. The less you invest, the less you need a large audience.
These companies would actually be wise to invest little to expect little, because that little adds up, and the "niche" market is far from saturated.
Actually RTS units dying is more like your mana pool "dying" when you cast a spell. It's just a consumed resource, it doesn't really die.
The crux of permadeath's unpopularity is letting players accumulate permanent power, then stealing it away again. This doesn't mean in the context of a 15 min FPS match or 60 min RTS match, but in the much grander scale of hundreds of hours invested into a single character.
But I agree, a single niche feature doesn't make a niche game. And I also agree that those companies could spend niche budgets making niche games and still turn a profit. But not just those big companies.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Since the AAA games tend to be themepark with a heavy emphasis on the game aspect vs. the sim aspect, I'm not sure which heavily sim-sandbox AAA game you are disappointed with for not having those features.
No, it's just features that the developers feel they *need* to focus on.
When a publisher is involved, I.E, the AAA-MMO, they will tell you what you *need* to focus on. The guy holding the briefcase doesn't care about artistic expression, or aesthetics, he only cares about meeting enough of a common standard to where they can meet the bottom line.
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4 Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
This is about the topic. Large corporations have MORE to lose.
I really have to disagree. Again, as Loktofeit and I mentionned, Indie developers must put a pool a lot of money for their MMOs, often using personal loans, mortgage, etc to get enough money to launch their MMO. It's a hit or miss. If they miss, I wish them good luck to repay those mortgages and loans, because that's going to take a while to pay back if they don't want to declare bankruptcy. Spellborn Inc. (The Chronicles Of Spellborn) has gone bankrupt, and it's not pretty.
Large MMO Companies will of course put a lot of money on the table, but they already have multiple source of revenues, it allows them to lesser the impact of the loss, should their MMO "fail" to reach it's audience. The company itself would take a hit as far as their credibility goes, but trust can be rebuilt.
Indie Developers don't have that luxury. Bankruptcy....that follows you forever.
So the possible loss of thousands of employees who depend on their jobs trumps the loss of one who took out a loan??
Did you even read my post? This is the THIRD time I mentioned that large MMO companies have THOUSANDS of employees who depend on a game's success. If the game is a total failure and they lose hundreds of millions (or a similar amount compared to an indie dev's loss) they would have massive layoffs and pay cuts.
Imagine the impact to the economy if Blizzard went backrupt because the next 5 MMORPG's it invests hundreds of millions in flop to not even give them half of that back.
Large Companies are more than just a faceless corporation. They employee entire families who survive on these people's jobs, which they will lose if the company begins to suffer.
and in addition to the above you wrote (in red):
I'm talking about relative amount. A major publisher can throw a pile of cash at a project and if it sinks, they took a big loss but they move on.
Along with thousands of laid off employees who have to "move on" straight to the poor house.
For a lot of indie devs, they have everything riding on the line for their project.
Just like the careers and jobs of thousands of employees in big corporations.
You keep bringing up these thousands of jobs lost when an MMO gets the axe. I'm simply not familiar with a single instance, let aloneyour presentation as it being a normal scenario for any software publisher.
In the past 15 years of MMOs, when did the closing of an MMO - before, during or after release - result in thousands of jobs lost?
This was an example if a hundred million dollar MMORPG failed very, very hard. If you really think a 300 million MMORPG which over a few years makes only 30 million back wouldn't result in layoffs or paycuts, it boggles my mind.
However, MMORPG's haven't failed that badly (just like how indie developers also haven't failed that badly).
You entire argument was about how indie developers have more to lose, but that's simply not true. You also ignore the fact that if a MMO closes, a team does lose their jobs. It may not be thousands (because the MMO doesn't fail THAT badly) but it does mean a full team, or at the least 1 person who may have a very hard time finding a new job if they are the leper that caused the MMO to fail.
I just don't see how one indie dev who "puts it all on the line" is any different from one AAA dev who loses his job in the same way and may not be able to get another if the game's failure is his fault and he is seen as a leper. In fact, it seems as though a lot of big devs after their failures become indie devs in one way or another.
How is the bankruptcy of 1 indie dev worse than the loss of 5-20 people's jobs, who will have a hard time finding a new one in the US economy?
You ignore the fact that big business employees thousands of people whose jobs rely on a game's success. It is irrelevant if the layoffs are a few as a result of a small failure or many as a result of a massive failure. It is still more than just one person losing their job, the same as if an indie dev loses their job, if that AAA dev is unable to find a new one to pay his bills.
And in the end... just because AAA MMORPG's rarely (or never) fail to end up with thousands of lost jobs doesn't mean they don't risk that. It's most likely that AAA MMORPG's don't fail very badly when they fail, because the people who make it fail are still talented individuals (else they wouldnt be in an AAA company) so the rarity of massive revenue loss isn't as common, but that doesn't mean its' impossible or any less of a risk.
Programmers, QA jobs, artists, secretaries, tech support--- all of these are real people with real jobs which will disappear if a AAA title flops bad enough to harm the AAA business.
If being a developer means being quiet, mature, well-spoken, and disconnected from the community, then by all means do me a favor and believe I'm not one.
You ignore the fact that big business employees thousands of people whose jobs rely on a game's success. It is irrelevant if the layoffs are a few as a result of a small failure or many as a result of a massive failure. It is still more than just one person losing their job, the same as if an indie dev loses their job, if that AAA dev is unable to find a new one to pay his bills.
I dont think he was ignoring the fact that big business employs lots of people, and that thier jobs are important. It sounds to me like he is trying to point out that one man, one mans job and livelihood is just as important to lose as those that work for that big company. And yes, as hard as the job market is today, those that work for the big company would simply lose thier jobs but really, thats it. What he is trying to say is an Indy who oges under on the gamble doesnt just lose his job, most times he loses his job, his house, his car, his shirt, his everything. Thats bit more than just having to hit the unemployment lines for your 99 weeks of unemployment paycheck while you find a new job.
But yeah sure, if 1000 people lose thier job it sucks true, but just because its only 5 and not 1000 doesnt make it any less important or tragic.
You ignore the fact that big business employees thousands of people whose jobs rely on a game's success. It is irrelevant if the layoffs are a few as a result of a small failure or many as a result of a massive failure. It is still more than just one person losing their job, the same as if an indie dev loses their job, if that AAA dev is unable to find a new one to pay his bills.
I dont think he was ignoring the fact that big business employs lots of people, and that thier jobs are important. It sounds to me like he is trying to point out that one man, one mans job and livelihood is just as important to lose as those that work for that big company. And yes, as hard as the job market is today, those that work for the big company would simply lose thier jobs but really, thats it. What he is trying to say is an Indy who oges under on the gamble doesnt just lose his job, most times he loses his job, his house, his car, his shirt, his everything. Thats bit more than just having to hit the unemployment lines for your 99 weeks of unemployment paycheck while you find a new job.
But yeah sure, if 1000 people lose thier job it sucks true, but just because its only 5 and not 1000 doesnt make it any less important or tragic.
If those 5 who lose their jobs can't pay for their house, their car, their bills, or food, they'll experience bankruptcy in the same way as that indie dev.
I'm not arguing that an indie dev won't "lose it all" but I am arguing that it is certainly possible for employees who trust in their paycheck to also "lose it all" because of the success or failure of the business they work for.
You never know... while one indie developer has to file for bankruptcy because his MMO failed to profit enough to repay his debt, another pro developer has to file for bankruptcy because he lost his job and couldn't land a new one in time, or did, but because of his job loss many other social factors came into consideration which harmed his life. Perhaps his wife left him, seeing him as a failure, or he becomes a drunk. Sure that's fickle or radical, but who is to say what happens when a pro employee loses their job?
And who is to say that AAA companies don't have cutbacks all the time? "We don't need you anymore. We have plenty of tech support."
I really doubt anyone here knows how many jobs are lost or created based on the failure or success of a MMORPG.
Do you think many jobs were lost among members not apart of the development team when a AAA MMO closes down? Do you really think that Tabula Rasa closing didn't result in jobs lost for those in things like Support, GMing, artwork, programming, etc.?
And do you really think that of those unemployeed and unable to find a job, 0% are in the gaming industry?
If being a developer means being quiet, mature, well-spoken, and disconnected from the community, then by all means do me a favor and believe I'm not one.
Ok yup, forget I even got involved in this argument, you two can go back at each other again I'm not getting in the middle here. Arguing for the sake of arguing is not what I do.
Oh and hey Emergence, I have been one of the many on here following your work over the past 6 months or so with great interest. This new role your taking on, the righteous defender of the 'pro' and all, dont let it get in the way of what you do best man, all I am saying. I know where your coming from, but trust me on this one, dont let your passion get in the way of your passion if you know what I mean.
Ok yup, forget I even got involved in this argument, you two can go back at each other again I'm not getting in the middle here. Arguing for the sake of arguing is not what I do.
Funny, hehehe... I was thinking "What did he post as a reply? Ugh, I'm not going to argue for the sake of arguing. I just won't reply or something."
I understood his point, but he seems to be ignoring mine.
I will agree that they share equal risk, as the employees of a AAA MMO are just as important as a lead dev of an Indie MMO. (Although I don't actually believe that, I think the higher number of people in the former make up for the superiority of the latter).
I'll also share evidence of the thousands of lost jobs from failed MMORPG's if he shares evidence of a single Indie Dev going bankrupt personally losing both his house because he took out a second mortgage, and proof he took out a large personal loan.
If being a developer means being quiet, mature, well-spoken, and disconnected from the community, then by all means do me a favor and believe I'm not one.
In other words, most people don't really care all that much about all those things you just listed.
Who are "most people"???
If being a developer means being quiet, mature, well-spoken, and disconnected from the community, then by all means do me a favor and believe I'm not one.
In other words, most people don't really care all that much about all those things you just listed.
Who are "most people"???
Most people means the majority of mmo gamers, simple as that. If you are on this or any forum you are already outside the majority and heading towards the vocal minority. The majority likes accesible games, easy to get into, easy to progress, easy to grasp the basics.
You forgot to add the "I." As in, "can do things I like." Being small always lends to inventive in business. Large companies hire CEOs and talk about projections and mention investors a lot. Which translates into spreadsheets, powerpoints, meetings and people who know who to rob your 401k while ordering new office furniture and polishing their resume make key developing choices.
Very true. Most investors aren't going to trust millions and millions of their money to Dev's. That means the suits are making most of the major decisions. Suits by nature tend to be risk adverse. Thus they also tend to stick with what has worked in the past. Unfortunately, they also tend to have little grasp of what makes a game enjoyable. Given the complex nature of development, if the suits have too much control of the creative side, things may not go well. On the other hand, if the Dev's have too much control, things tend to go over budget, and development drags on and on. Change any of many varibles and the game may miss its target.
In other words, most people don't really care all that much about all those things you just listed.
Who are "most people"???
Most people means the majority of mmo gamers, simple as that. If you are on this or any forum you are already outside the majority and heading towards the vocal minority. The majority likes accesible games, easy to get into, easy to progress, easy to grasp the basics.
This.
There's a huge difference between the mainstream mass of MMO gamers and the visitors/posters on this site, as the high position of Xsyon on the hype list shows. As quite a number of comments of various posters has shown, you don't come here to this site unless you're dissatisfied with the current crop of MMORPG's and are looking for something else that can give you the MMO fun you're looking for. At least this applies to a very large group of visitors and posters here.
But don't make the mistake to think that the opinions and tastes of the mmorpg.com community here are an accurate representation of the whole of the MMORPG playerbase. I think WoW is the best example of that
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I know that some AAA have some of these things but come on. Do the AAA titles think that these are unwanted features?
No they think they are features that won't make them money back on their investment.
I don't think anyone can look back on the recent history of AAA MMOs and actually think any of them know how to make a return on an investment.
That's why there all 80% marketing, 20% content these days. They have no confidence to spend money on innovative product designs, and just forfeit what could be further R&D with shallow marketing schemes.
Eventually they will catch up with the innovation and creativity of the single player game market.
Its amazing how big MMOs can get soo many subscribers, when all the subs are doing is grinding the same hc's and raids every week for gear, gear for alts, pvp for gear.
And then new content comes in the form of new hcs and raids which you will do every week which will make your time spend in getting that previous gear irrelevant lol.
oh and pvpers get a higehr teir of gear too.
Amazing how 12 mills subs (minus mine) can just play a game for gear gear gear gear gear lol.
I prefer xsyon, i play for the tribe, we're gonna build a camp, get more members, make a town, craft our pants off, have pvpers to keep nasty tribes outta our hair, and form allaiances with other tribes for trading and pvping. Maybe even build a city if the game goes as well in development as promised.
Its amazing how big MMOs can get soo many subscribers, when all the subs are doing is grinding the same hc's and raids every week for gear, gear for alts, pvp for gear.
And then new content comes in the form of new hcs and raids which you will do every week which will make your time spend in getting that previous gear irrelevant lol.
oh and pvpers get a higehr teir of gear too.
Amazing how 12 mills subs (minus mine) can just play a game for gear gear gear gear gear lol.
I prefer xsyon, i play for the tribe, we're gonna build a camp, get more members, make a town, craft our pants off, have pvpers to keep nasty tribes outta our hair, and form allaiances with other tribes for trading and pvping. Maybe even build a city if the game goes as well in development as promised.
I dont play for gear :P
So, you don't want better armor or weapons? Best of luck competing with those who do want those then. Especially in a gank fest game. Everyone has their different tastes, if you are happy with your current game, more power to you.
Its amazing how big MMOs can get soo many subscribers, when all the subs are doing is grinding the same hc's and raids every week for gear, gear for alts, pvp for gear.
And then new content comes in the form of new hcs and raids which you will do every week which will make your time spend in getting that previous gear irrelevant lol.
oh and pvpers get a higehr teir of gear too.
Amazing how 12 mills subs (minus mine) can just play a game for gear gear gear gear gear lol.
I prefer xsyon, i play for the tribe, we're gonna build a camp, get more members, make a town, craft our pants off, have pvpers to keep nasty tribes outta our hair, and form allaiances with other tribes for trading and pvping. Maybe even build a city if the game goes as well in development as promised.
I dont play for gear :P
So, you don't want better armor or weapons? Best of luck competing with those who do want those then. Especially in a gank fest game. Everyone has their different tastes, if you are happy with your current game, more power to you.
LOL best weapons and armor, dude in WoW you can repair your armor its infinate, in Xsyon people can steal it off you just like that! or when the game goes live it can break perminately. Me im a crafter, me tribes is full of crafters, but we are looking for pvps to help with defences too, sure we'll be making gear thats superior in quality eventually for the pvpers to do there headhunting .
The only looting of armor and weps is off other players, players make em (the best ones too) so pvpers need crafters as much as crafters need pvpers, its really about your tribe, and not saying "check it out i got all Tier 11 gear, my gearscore rocks!"
This has probably been said 1000 times already, but the more money involved in a project the less risks it can afford to take.
Kind of a silly practise from our point of view, but that is how big budget companies view things, and it has been working just as well as creating totally new mmo structures/concepts, actually it seems to be doing better, look at Rift for example.. (I hate it but there are 100's more to take my place).
Its amazing how big MMOs can get soo many subscribers, when all the subs are doing is grinding the same hc's and raids every week for gear, gear for alts, pvp for gear.
And then new content comes in the form of new hcs and raids which you will do every week which will make your time spend in getting that previous gear irrelevant lol.
oh and pvpers get a higehr teir of gear too.
Amazing how 12 mills subs (minus mine) can just play a game for gear gear gear gear gear lol.
I prefer xsyon, i play for the tribe, we're gonna build a camp, get more members, make a town, craft our pants off, have pvpers to keep nasty tribes outta our hair, and form allaiances with other tribes for trading and pvping. Maybe even build a city if the game goes as well in development as promised.
I dont play for gear :P
So, you don't want better armor or weapons? Best of luck competing with those who do want those then. Especially in a gank fest game. Everyone has their different tastes, if you are happy with your current game, more power to you.
LOL best weapons and armor, dude in WoW you can repair your armor its infinate, in Xsyon people can steal it off you just like that! or when the game goes live it can break perminately. Me im a crafter, me tribes is full of crafters, but we are looking for pvps to help with defences too, sure we'll be making gear thats superior in quality eventually for the pvpers to do there headhunting .
The only looting of armor and weps is off other players, players make em (the best ones too) so pvpers need crafters as much as crafters need pvpers, its really about your tribe, and not saying "check it out i got all Tier 11 gear, my gearscore rocks!"
Well, I wish you the very best of luck then. I really do not care for gank fest games any more. Especially not the full loot types. They almost always break down into who has the most gankers on line at any given time. With roaming packs stalking anyone whose gang isn't on at the moment. It gets to the point that one can't log in without other members of ones gang on. Never seen the point of that type of game, but to each their own.
This has probably been said 1000 times already, but the more money involved in a project the less risks it can afford to take.
Kind of a silly practise from our point of view, but that is how big budget companies view things, and it has been working just as well as creating totally new mmo structures/concepts, actually it seems to be doing better, look at Rift for example.. (I hate it but there are 100's more to take my place).
Exactly so. The more of other peoples money is involved, the more control the business suits have over the project. Those suits tend to be VERY risk adverse, and get even more so as the amount of money at risk increases. Investors do not care about anything but ROI. Hell, most of them wouldn't know a good game if it stomped on their foot. But intone the mystic phrase; "Its just like World of Warcraft!" and watch their eyes light up with dollar signs, as they throw truck loads of money at you.
Not everyone wants to brush their teeth and work out while sitting at their computer some people actually like to get away from "real" life and actually just play a game not try to up their muscle build...
Players can build roads, clear, level, raise and lower terrain.
Constantly changing resources can be renewed or depleted.
Availability dependent on season and weather conditions.
Four seasons: Winter, Spring, Summer, Fall.
Realistic sun path and shadows.
Realistic moon cycle and moonlight.
Volumetric and dynamic layered cloud system.
Accumulating snow.
Weather effects: Rain, Snow, Hail, Sleet.
Terrain surface affects movement.
Creatures react to adverse and favorable weather.
Weather conditions affect player actions and item durability.
Characters visibly gain or lose weight and muscle.
Characters age visibly. Ageing affects character statistics.
Different swim strokes are available based on skill.
Characters achieving the Supreme Master level of craftsmanship work with the Xsyon team to introduce a crafted item of their own design
No set creature spawns or re-spawns. Animals multiply based on the current creature population. Undead never truly die, or do they?
Creatures gain experience and power, potentially evolving into legendary beings.
Creatures can overrun areas or be depleted.
Creatures gravitate towards different areas based on mood and weather.
Creatures driven to the outer reaches of the world mutate.
Creatures possess realistic loot. If you see armor or a weapon on a creature you can take it. Animals can be carved up for raw materials.
Creatures are a primary resource for crafters.
Quests are assigned from one player to another using the quest system. Tribal chiefs and leaders will have the ability to assign specific quests.
Quests are posted at town totems so that players can obtain and complete quests without requiring the quest giver to be online. Types of quests include:
Delivery of goods.
Hunting.
Gathering resources.
Crafting.
Exploration.
I know that some AAA have some of these things but come on. Do the AAA titles think that these are unwanted features?
A AAA developer could do all those things.
They don't do them because it's not part of the "winning formula" Publishers and Investors have decided is the safest and most economical way to make a MMO that can earn them money.
Guaranteed if Blizzard added any number of those items to WoW, you'd see a sudden wave of other MMO devs adding them to their existing games, or to new games being made. I have no doubt SOE would be the first out the gate to do that with EQ2.
MMOs are big business for AAA companies. A lot of money is spent on their development and so they want the safest and most "guaranteed" route taken to make money back on it. Thus, they won't dare do something until someone else does it, and proves it viable... then they're all over it trying to find ways to do it faster, easier and cheaper, while making more money from it.
Indie developers are, in large part, the only area where we're going to see that kind of attention to detail. Because Indie developers - from the designers and programmers on up to the head positions (which sometimes overlap) - are all in agreement that the game matters most. In larger companies, you have the developers/designers caring about making a great game, while the people "higher up the ladder" - the ones spending the money and calling the shots - are more concerned about how it fits into their spread-sheets and market analyses. Finally, of course, truly indie developers don't have numbers-hungry Publishers lurking over their shoulder, telling them what they have to do in their game.
True innovation and new, daring ideas will almost always come from the indie scene. Think of Id Software... a bunch of guys who met at a company called Softdisk, started up their own company on a (then revolutionary for the PC) game called Commander Keen, all working out of a single house in Louisiana. They went on to basically invent the FPS genre... with countless developers trying to cop what they do. The first Myst game was created by a group of guys in their garage... and so forth.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
It's not that AAA MMOs can't, it's because they chose not to.
Even if the developers wanted to, they can't.
Publishers might not let them.
I do not believe it's an issue with Publishers. Perhaps you meant Investors?
Same difference. Investors want returns on their investment, Publishers need to make sure the "product" is created in a way that gets them that return. The way they do that is by taking the safest, cheapest and least original route possible.
200,000 gamers could physically line up outside the offices of some major MMO development house with a list resembling Xsyon's saying "This is what we want as gamers!". They could be carrying the signatures of 500,000 more who didn't show in person. The higher-ups would look at the list, look at all the people, then look at their spread-sheets and charts and say... 'Nope, nope... See? None of that list is important. Shows right here that what players really want is super-linear, theme-park games with fast solo leveling to end-game where they can raid for better equipment. Numbers speak louder than words, and that's where the money is. So, that's obviously what people want. Those people outside our building don't really know what they want. We do. Placate them by telling them we'll consider their feedback and appreciate it, blah blah blah... Try to sound sincere. Wait for them to go away, then shred the lists and signatures".
(obviously a somewhat facetious take on it, but you get the idea...)
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
But a lot of those features are very atmosphere oriented. They pull you into the world. Why wouldn't a AAA company want that?
Because they're prioritizing game-building over world-building?
I'm ashamed that this post was the first to acknowledge that AAA titles tend to focus on making a good game before adding barely noticable fluff. They wasted potentially hundreds or thousands of manhours on something that the player may or may not notice at all. First objective of the developers should be making a polished, strong core gameplay and only then worry about fluff features.
Why don't the big companies do such things? Because they are not "game making" features. In other words no one is going to seriously make up their mind about buying the game because his/her character shows visible aging. Additionally having chance to gain or shed weight of your character doesn't necessarily make it a good game. You could have all the realism you want in it but if the core gameplay sucks, the whole game sucks.
For example Fable was made with big money, and it had all sorts of useless features in it. Was it a good game? -First one, maybe. Second and third? -Not so much. And both of the latest versions had more and more fluff in them. Great majority of gamers skipped most, if not all, that fluff. Core gameplay stayed the same or in some cases got worse. Personally, I gave up on the series upon discovering where they had wasted their manhours.
You (and a couple others) seem to be arguing it as though it's an "either/or" situation. If that's not the case, then I'd stand corrected.
However, "solid gameplay" and "unique, interesting features" (fluff according to you, interesting and engaging content to others) are not mutually exclusive.
I absolutely agree, a MMO should have established, solid core gameplay first, then everything else adds on to that. However, I would not agree that either has to be done at the expense of the other.
If the goal, however, is to make a world sim with game-like elements included, then it seems they're right on track with Xsyon. If their goal is to make a game first with sim-like elements included... then they may not be.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Comments
I think the idea is large game company dont' try to make games, they try to make money. Like Macdonald isn't in the fast food businiss, they are in the real estate business.
While small company makes games, they start with the blue print first then try to get funding after.
It's not really that AAA developers can't make it. They just deemed it not worth the time to make it.
Actually RTS units dying is more like your mana pool "dying" when you cast a spell. It's just a consumed resource, it doesn't really die.
The crux of permadeath's unpopularity is letting players accumulate permanent power, then stealing it away again. This doesn't mean in the context of a 15 min FPS match or 60 min RTS match, but in the much grander scale of hundreds of hours invested into a single character.
But I agree, a single niche feature doesn't make a niche game. And I also agree that those companies could spend niche budgets making niche games and still turn a profit. But not just those big companies.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
No, it's just features that the developers feel they *need* to focus on.
When a publisher is involved, I.E, the AAA-MMO, they will tell you what you *need* to focus on. The guy holding the briefcase doesn't care about artistic expression, or aesthetics, he only cares about meeting enough of a common standard to where they can meet the bottom line.
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
This was an example if a hundred million dollar MMORPG failed very, very hard. If you really think a 300 million MMORPG which over a few years makes only 30 million back wouldn't result in layoffs or paycuts, it boggles my mind.
However, MMORPG's haven't failed that badly (just like how indie developers also haven't failed that badly).
You entire argument was about how indie developers have more to lose, but that's simply not true. You also ignore the fact that if a MMO closes, a team does lose their jobs. It may not be thousands (because the MMO doesn't fail THAT badly) but it does mean a full team, or at the least 1 person who may have a very hard time finding a new job if they are the leper that caused the MMO to fail.
I just don't see how one indie dev who "puts it all on the line" is any different from one AAA dev who loses his job in the same way and may not be able to get another if the game's failure is his fault and he is seen as a leper. In fact, it seems as though a lot of big devs after their failures become indie devs in one way or another.
How is the bankruptcy of 1 indie dev worse than the loss of 5-20 people's jobs, who will have a hard time finding a new one in the US economy?
You ignore the fact that big business employees thousands of people whose jobs rely on a game's success. It is irrelevant if the layoffs are a few as a result of a small failure or many as a result of a massive failure. It is still more than just one person losing their job, the same as if an indie dev loses their job, if that AAA dev is unable to find a new one to pay his bills.
And in the end... just because AAA MMORPG's rarely (or never) fail to end up with thousands of lost jobs doesn't mean they don't risk that. It's most likely that AAA MMORPG's don't fail very badly when they fail, because the people who make it fail are still talented individuals (else they wouldnt be in an AAA company) so the rarity of massive revenue loss isn't as common, but that doesn't mean its' impossible or any less of a risk.
Programmers, QA jobs, artists, secretaries, tech support--- all of these are real people with real jobs which will disappear if a AAA title flops bad enough to harm the AAA business.
If being a developer means being quiet, mature, well-spoken, and disconnected from the community, then by all means do me a favor and believe I'm not one.
I dont think he was ignoring the fact that big business employs lots of people, and that thier jobs are important. It sounds to me like he is trying to point out that one man, one mans job and livelihood is just as important to lose as those that work for that big company. And yes, as hard as the job market is today, those that work for the big company would simply lose thier jobs but really, thats it. What he is trying to say is an Indy who oges under on the gamble doesnt just lose his job, most times he loses his job, his house, his car, his shirt, his everything. Thats bit more than just having to hit the unemployment lines for your 99 weeks of unemployment paycheck while you find a new job.
But yeah sure, if 1000 people lose thier job it sucks true, but just because its only 5 and not 1000 doesnt make it any less important or tragic.
If those 5 who lose their jobs can't pay for their house, their car, their bills, or food, they'll experience bankruptcy in the same way as that indie dev.
I'm not arguing that an indie dev won't "lose it all" but I am arguing that it is certainly possible for employees who trust in their paycheck to also "lose it all" because of the success or failure of the business they work for.
You never know... while one indie developer has to file for bankruptcy because his MMO failed to profit enough to repay his debt, another pro developer has to file for bankruptcy because he lost his job and couldn't land a new one in time, or did, but because of his job loss many other social factors came into consideration which harmed his life. Perhaps his wife left him, seeing him as a failure, or he becomes a drunk. Sure that's fickle or radical, but who is to say what happens when a pro employee loses their job?
And who is to say that AAA companies don't have cutbacks all the time? "We don't need you anymore. We have plenty of tech support."
I really doubt anyone here knows how many jobs are lost or created based on the failure or success of a MMORPG.
Do you think many jobs were lost among members not apart of the development team when a AAA MMO closes down? Do you really think that Tabula Rasa closing didn't result in jobs lost for those in things like Support, GMing, artwork, programming, etc.?
And do you really think that of those unemployeed and unable to find a job, 0% are in the gaming industry?
If being a developer means being quiet, mature, well-spoken, and disconnected from the community, then by all means do me a favor and believe I'm not one.
Ok yup, forget I even got involved in this argument, you two can go back at each other again I'm not getting in the middle here. Arguing for the sake of arguing is not what I do.
Oh and hey Emergence, I have been one of the many on here following your work over the past 6 months or so with great interest. This new role your taking on, the righteous defender of the 'pro' and all, dont let it get in the way of what you do best man, all I am saying. I know where your coming from, but trust me on this one, dont let your passion get in the way of your passion if you know what I mean.
Because simulation games like that are not popular.
They aren't popular because they usually simulate the boring and tedious aspects of RL as well, while games are very much about escaping tedium.
In other words, most people don't really care all that much about all those things you just listed.
Feel free to use my referral link for SW:TOR if you want to test out the game. You'll get some special unlocks!
Funny, hehehe... I was thinking "What did he post as a reply? Ugh, I'm not going to argue for the sake of arguing. I just won't reply or something."
I understood his point, but he seems to be ignoring mine.
I will agree that they share equal risk, as the employees of a AAA MMO are just as important as a lead dev of an Indie MMO. (Although I don't actually believe that, I think the higher number of people in the former make up for the superiority of the latter).
I'll also share evidence of the thousands of lost jobs from failed MMORPG's if he shares evidence of a single Indie Dev going bankrupt personally losing both his house because he took out a second mortgage, and proof he took out a large personal loan.
If being a developer means being quiet, mature, well-spoken, and disconnected from the community, then by all means do me a favor and believe I'm not one.
Who are "most people"???
If being a developer means being quiet, mature, well-spoken, and disconnected from the community, then by all means do me a favor and believe I'm not one.
Most people means the majority of mmo gamers, simple as that. If you are on this or any forum you are already outside the majority and heading towards the vocal minority. The majority likes accesible games, easy to get into, easy to progress, easy to grasp the basics.
Very true. Most investors aren't going to trust millions and millions of their money to Dev's. That means the suits are making most of the major decisions. Suits by nature tend to be risk adverse. Thus they also tend to stick with what has worked in the past. Unfortunately, they also tend to have little grasp of what makes a game enjoyable. Given the complex nature of development, if the suits have too much control of the creative side, things may not go well. On the other hand, if the Dev's have too much control, things tend to go over budget, and development drags on and on. Change any of many varibles and the game may miss its target.
This.
There's a huge difference between the mainstream mass of MMO gamers and the visitors/posters on this site, as the high position of Xsyon on the hype list shows. As quite a number of comments of various posters has shown, you don't come here to this site unless you're dissatisfied with the current crop of MMORPG's and are looking for something else that can give you the MMO fun you're looking for. At least this applies to a very large group of visitors and posters here.
But don't make the mistake to think that the opinions and tastes of the mmorpg.com community here are an accurate representation of the whole of the MMORPG playerbase. I think WoW is the best example of that
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I don't think anyone can look back on the recent history of AAA MMOs and actually think any of them know how to make a return on an investment.
That's why there all 80% marketing, 20% content these days. They have no confidence to spend money on innovative product designs, and just forfeit what could be further R&D with shallow marketing schemes.
Eventually they will catch up with the innovation and creativity of the single player game market.
Its amazing how big MMOs can get soo many subscribers, when all the subs are doing is grinding the same hc's and raids every week for gear, gear for alts, pvp for gear.
And then new content comes in the form of new hcs and raids which you will do every week which will make your time spend in getting that previous gear irrelevant lol.
oh and pvpers get a higehr teir of gear too.
Amazing how 12 mills subs (minus mine) can just play a game for gear gear gear gear gear lol.
I prefer xsyon, i play for the tribe, we're gonna build a camp, get more members, make a town, craft our pants off, have pvpers to keep nasty tribes outta our hair, and form allaiances with other tribes for trading and pvping. Maybe even build a city if the game goes as well in development as promised.
I dont play for gear :P
So, you don't want better armor or weapons? Best of luck competing with those who do want those then. Especially in a gank fest game. Everyone has their different tastes, if you are happy with your current game, more power to you.
LOL best weapons and armor, dude in WoW you can repair your armor its infinate, in Xsyon people can steal it off you just like that! or when the game goes live it can break perminately. Me im a crafter, me tribes is full of crafters, but we are looking for pvps to help with defences too, sure we'll be making gear thats superior in quality eventually for the pvpers to do there headhunting
.
The only looting of armor and weps is off other players, players make em (the best ones too) so pvpers need crafters as much as crafters need pvpers, its really about your tribe, and not saying "check it out i got all Tier 11 gear, my gearscore rocks!"
This has probably been said 1000 times already, but the more money involved in a project the less risks it can afford to take.
Kind of a silly practise from our point of view, but that is how big budget companies view things, and it has been working just as well as creating totally new mmo structures/concepts, actually it seems to be doing better, look at Rift for example.. (I hate it but there are 100's more to take my place).
Well, I wish you the very best of luck then. I really do not care for gank fest games any more. Especially not the full loot types. They almost always break down into who has the most gankers on line at any given time. With roaming packs stalking anyone whose gang isn't on at the moment. It gets to the point that one can't log in without other members of ones gang on. Never seen the point of that type of game, but to each their own.
Exactly so. The more of other peoples money is involved, the more control the business suits have over the project. Those suits tend to be VERY risk adverse, and get even more so as the amount of money at risk increases. Investors do not care about anything but ROI. Hell, most of them wouldn't know a good game if it stomped on their foot. But intone the mystic phrase; "Its just like World of Warcraft!" and watch their eyes light up with dollar signs, as they throw truck loads of money at you.
Not everyone wants to brush their teeth and work out while sitting at their computer some people actually like to get away from "real" life and actually just play a game not try to up their muscle build...
A AAA developer could do all those things.
They don't do them because it's not part of the "winning formula" Publishers and Investors have decided is the safest and most economical way to make a MMO that can earn them money.
Guaranteed if Blizzard added any number of those items to WoW, you'd see a sudden wave of other MMO devs adding them to their existing games, or to new games being made. I have no doubt SOE would be the first out the gate to do that with EQ2.
MMOs are big business for AAA companies. A lot of money is spent on their development and so they want the safest and most "guaranteed" route taken to make money back on it. Thus, they won't dare do something until someone else does it, and proves it viable... then they're all over it trying to find ways to do it faster, easier and cheaper, while making more money from it.
Indie developers are, in large part, the only area where we're going to see that kind of attention to detail. Because Indie developers - from the designers and programmers on up to the head positions (which sometimes overlap) - are all in agreement that the game matters most. In larger companies, you have the developers/designers caring about making a great game, while the people "higher up the ladder" - the ones spending the money and calling the shots - are more concerned about how it fits into their spread-sheets and market analyses. Finally, of course, truly indie developers don't have numbers-hungry Publishers lurking over their shoulder, telling them what they have to do in their game.
True innovation and new, daring ideas will almost always come from the indie scene. Think of Id Software... a bunch of guys who met at a company called Softdisk, started up their own company on a (then revolutionary for the PC) game called Commander Keen, all working out of a single house in Louisiana. They went on to basically invent the FPS genre... with countless developers trying to cop what they do. The first Myst game was created by a group of guys in their garage... and so forth.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Ding! Ding!
And that's all that matters to them at the end of the day.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Same difference. Investors want returns on their investment, Publishers need to make sure the "product" is created in a way that gets them that return. The way they do that is by taking the safest, cheapest and least original route possible.
200,000 gamers could physically line up outside the offices of some major MMO development house with a list resembling Xsyon's saying "This is what we want as gamers!". They could be carrying the signatures of 500,000 more who didn't show in person. The higher-ups would look at the list, look at all the people, then look at their spread-sheets and charts and say... 'Nope, nope... See? None of that list is important. Shows right here that what players really want is super-linear, theme-park games with fast solo leveling to end-game where they can raid for better equipment. Numbers speak louder than words, and that's where the money is. So, that's obviously what people want. Those people outside our building don't really know what they want. We do. Placate them by telling them we'll consider their feedback and appreciate it, blah blah blah... Try to sound sincere. Wait for them to go away, then shred the lists and signatures".
(obviously a somewhat facetious take on it, but you get the idea...)
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
You (and a couple others) seem to be arguing it as though it's an "either/or" situation. If that's not the case, then I'd stand corrected.
However, "solid gameplay" and "unique, interesting features" (fluff according to you, interesting and engaging content to others) are not mutually exclusive.
I absolutely agree, a MMO should have established, solid core gameplay first, then everything else adds on to that. However, I would not agree that either has to be done at the expense of the other.
If the goal, however, is to make a world sim with game-like elements included, then it seems they're right on track with Xsyon. If their goal is to make a game first with sim-like elements included... then they may not be.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops