Do not bleat at me, little sheep, for this path you chose of your own free will. You knew the wolves lurked here, you simply chose to ignore them. Well I didn't ignore you, regardless of the cloak of illusion you cast about yourself as you seek your place in this world.
- A Shriner, written for ArcticMUD circa 1992
a million times this
some people shouldn't be allowed to stay a thousand miles close to a PvP game, for they cannot stand the heat.
I dont understand why they force thenmselves to play something they clearly dislike, then cry and moan.
Call them eternal optimists of the human spirit. They expect people in MMORPG's to behave with honor, just like they do themselves in real life.
They can't comprehend that there are folks who might be very honorable in real life but once they venture into a game that goes right out the window.
I've come to accept the existence of the latter type and in fact although I'm an honorable carebear, I play PVP games for the fun and excitement, regardless of the fact I die a whole bunch to the gank squad.
I don't expect other players to be like me though, we all pay our fees and play the way we chose to play, I don't begrudge those who wish to play like psychotic killers, I just assume it fulfills some inner need.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
thing is, by major leaps and bounds the pvp community is MUCH MORE of a QQ community then the pve community. If you want to find out who cry babies are just look at any strong pvp game.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Whilst playing Aion I was getting ganked all the time and most battles I was lucky if I even targetted the opposing player before I was as good as dead.
The only way for me to get better was to engage in many more fights.
Inevitably this meant I sometimes 'ganked' players on the opposing faction. Should I feel bad about this? No, I think not as it was in order to improve at the game. I have no problem with opposing players doing the same to me. In a PvP game there are many reasons why other players may attack you.
For anyone being ganked and getting fed up I recommend you do the same. It helped me to get better at PvP and gave me a much stronger sense of what battles I could win when someone did attack me without warning.
I feel that in a true pvp situation, there's nothing wrong with pk'ing or even ganking. However, if your idea of enjoyment is griefing, of purposely and without provocation, trying to make the other player's experience unfun, then you are being a jerk. If you find this kind of thing fun in a game, then you are a jerk in real life too. No exceptions.
thing is, by major leaps and bounds the pvp community is MUCH MORE of a QQ community then the pve community. If you want to find out who cry babies are just look at any strong pvp game.
Foundless. Here's the facts. In the wide majority of popular MMOs, 3/4s of anyones time is spent PvEing. The majority of capable PvPers by heart will PvE for the sake of the game, with complaint only towards quality and longevity. They go through all 50 levels or whatnot, just to achieve the endgame dream PvP stage, where all is said in and done in the name of balanced PvP. Yet the PvErs, can't stomach ANY PvP that is not on their watch. Its really easy to see why. They aren't bother by the quantity of PvP, their bothered by the nature of it. Some just won't play a game at all even if there is minuscule chance they may interact with another PvPer before their choosing. There's never been a PvPer in the history of gaming that has expected such. Any player that interacts with the PvEr in any way that subjectively upsets them, is griefing to them, and they justify entire servers without having to experience PvP to enjoy the complete game because they whine the loudest from percieved offences. The same issues threaten the integrity of the justice system when people sue for millions of dollars simply because their "feelings" were hurt.
I will contend that majority of people with rude attitudes and aggresive behavior are PvPers, its the consequence of competition; however, the majority of whining, overblown and entitled emotionally fragile gamers are PvErs by heart. If we're gonna generalize.
I feel that in a true pvp situation, there's nothing wrong with pk'ing or even ganking. However, if your idea of enjoyment is griefing, of purposely and without provocation, trying to make the other player's experience unfun, then you are being a jerk. If you find this kind of thing fun in a game, then you are a jerk in real life too. No exceptions.
Or you could simply you know, be playing the game the way you should be. Just look at faction based or Race vs Race PvP focused games. It cracks me up when i see people in those games QQing about getting killed repeatedly, especially when its their own fault for insisiting on walking right back into the same exact spot when there are a dozen different ways they can reach their goal. The bottom line is, in those types of games the lore itself tells you that you are at WAR with the enemy faction. Should you just sit back and allow your enemy to get stronger without stepping in to hinder their progress? Wouldnt that be an absolutely ridiculous call to make if you were in a real life war situation?
Im all for competetive & balanced PvP, but if you want to compete with me youre not going to get to that point with ease, youre going to need to work your way up and make it there over the corpses of me & everyone else along the way just like those before you. If we're at war and the rules dont prevent me from killing you, youre going to get attacked wether youre a level 1 newbie or a max level geared out PvPer. Like the saying goes, red = dead. That doesnt mean i while go out of my way to just grief you constantly, but if i know theres people doing something like loot/xp farming in a specific spot constantly i will be hitting up that spot constantly for some kills. If youre there every time i show up, then just sucks to be you.
Do not bleat at me, little sheep, for this path you chose of your own free will. You knew the wolves lurked here, you simply chose to ignore them. Well I didn't ignore you, regardless of the cloak of illusion you cast about yourself as you seek your place in this world.
- A Shriner, written for ArcticMUD circa 1992
a million times this
some people shouldn't be allowed to stay a thousand miles close to a PvP game, for they cannot stand the heat.
I dont understand why they force thenmselves to play something they clearly dislike, then cry and moan.
this is a big misunderstanding. pvp people think that every time we get ganked we do this:
most of us however really dont. its just a feature we dont like that much in a game we adore. Just like pvp folks might not like harvesting or whatever, its just a feature, its not the second coming.
I wonder if pvp players would be disapointed learning that on vent when we get killed we pretty much continue whatever converstion we were having just before the encounter...
I dont want you to cry and rage and yell when I kill your character, although you can if you like.
I just want your stuff.
As it turns out I never talk to PKers.
Does that happen often to you?
I have, and still play, Darkfall for 2 years so I am plenty exposed to pvp even though other than warfare I dont like it.
I haven't been a pirate for very long, so I'm probably not a good source of data in this respect. However I have been a PvPer in EVE for about 4 years, and so far as I recall I have never received any hatemail. Many - perhaps even most - PvPers in EVE who kill a noob are generally only to ready to give advice on fittings and advice to their victim after the fact. Not to the ones who flip out and send RL death threats, ofc. Those guys we just laugh at, because they're making themselves ridiculous.
It's more complicated than the text (written by a narcisscist, I believe, though quoted in good faith I am sure by an ordinary poster) quoted in the first post in this thread.
You are a Gamer.
You can be a good person, and not have the least interest in ganking or even PKing.
You can be a jerk or even a sociopath, and for reasons best known to you, not indulge in ganking or PKing. Unlikely, but possible.
You can be a good person, and PK or even gank the characters of other players, some of whom may be respected and even liked by you. Some of them may even be your friends. Others will be people you frankly don't like, but so what? You probably won't be spinning long texts about how you get off on imagining their fear and dismay at being killed in a game-- something that by the way they may not feel or may not feel as much as some folks seem to suppose-- but you'll still be feeling that thrill of the chase and of kill or be killed and of risking your "life" and possibly saving others. You are frankly competitive; you feel some aggression; and you do not like to lose, but you don't bother to keep hating once you've logged out. You never really did hate, anymore than you hate the other team in a sport. [For purposes of disclosure, I fall into this category. I played Irekei in Shadowbane, I got into it, and when we caught a stranger of the "wrong" kind, we killed him, if and as often as we could. Never once intended or really thought about making other *players* unhappy, as we assumed they were there for the PvP along with anything else.]
You can be a real jerk, and of course you'll PK and gank and put a lot of your libido into it, and fantasize about the RL aspects of it, and brag and trashtalk and troll (and probably dupe, cheat, or hack, if you get a chance-- but that's another huge can of worms). You'll probably hate RPers, but oddly enough you'll have very little sense of where the game leaves off and RL begins-- you'll think of yourself as a winner outside the game for what you do inside of it. You'll enjoy being "feared" and if you're not actually feared you won't want to think about the fact that you might not be.
There is a coördinate system of possibilities, and these are the four quadrants of it.
And... wardrobe has nothing to do with it? Like, since when did wearing suits indicate personal virtue?
Casilda Tametomo, Priestess of Soldeus | AKA Lepida Aegis-Imperium.com
«Si oblitus fuero usque ad finem omnia opera eorum»
ive played eve-online, it is a game, and yes its a kinda of cut throat game, some people love it and some hate it. its definately the marmite of the gameing world to be sure.
thing is in eve you have to be a pk'er. maybe not so much in the starter locations like empire space where its pretty much a safe heaven for newer players well if they dont form a guild/corporation that is. thing is in eve if you found a guild/corporation your kinda of saying you want to enter open world pvp and thats pretty much exactly what eve is, open world pvp.
while in empire space (nooby area) their are some rules in place and mechanics to force the so called pk'ers to go through a few procedures before being allowed to freely gank newbies like a 24 hour notice to the corporation they have just declared war upon. this unfortunately in eve happens alot and most of the time unprovoked essentially highlighting the player killers in the game.
and then you have the other side to eve, the no law space this is practically empty shards of planets and rocks stuck in by the devs and they have allowed the player base to claim them for their own build massive structures in them and police them and set their own laws and such. i will admit in eve ive found life far far easier and more rewarding and safer in no security space (0.0) their are no game mechanics inplace to prevent people from coming round and player killing you.
instead 0.0 in eve dictates team work, other wise your just a worm on a hook, i think with eve its trying to bring back multiplay to the mmo industry and if i do say myself its doign a really good job of it. people misinterpret eve, they claim it to be a pvp game.
it is not!!
sure the game revolves around war,but if you look to the very foundation of the essence of eve which is ofcourse not the nooby area of empire space but is infact the lawless space. its where every gamer in eve wants to be but not what every gamer wants to deal with.
ill be honest, i had more problems playing eve in empire space than i ever did in 0.0 and now im a null-sec eve vetteran, ok dont misunderstand me when i call myself a vetteran. what im saying is ive passed that barrier we all create between the pvp world and the so called none pvp world, i hate pvp but in eve i kind of like it, i dont know why i just do, ive had my fair share of being spanked and ganked and jumped and oppressed by the mighty. but now its my turn to be that way.
eve is about empire building, not about small corps of 5-10 players roaming round space shooting at everything they see without a blue or purpple star, thats just the pvp mechanics. its true in eve some people are only their to pvp, but trust me when i say these guys are not around for long. ive played eve since 2007 and ive seen entire corps come and go even my own corp. most of them major pvp corps, the fact is war/pvp in eve is exspencive in regaurds to ingame currecny to keep up with. looseing a few ships can cost you like 2-3 months of hard work as a newer player.
im only just starting to feel the reward of playing eve for so long as money for me now is not really an issue in the game, its so much not an issue that ive been able to to play eve for free for the best part of the last 3 years.
eve is about building your empire and building a good qaulity well organised team which is determined to get to the best parts of the game. eve thankfully dictates team work.
i wouldnt say player killers are bad people, i would say they are very diffrent kinds of gamers. they get their buzz from seeing their mighty weapons of space fareing power kill another, it gives them the buzz they like in mmo's for me its all about progression achievment and domination ove certain aspects. not quiet got their in eve yet lol but the game definately supports the play style i wanna pursue.
pk'ers are temporary gamers, they will always be their, i know a few of them and they are all very nice people. although they dont handle loss to well when they are the ones being pk'ed and the shoe is on the other foot things do change indeed.
we had one corp/guild that used to hound our corp when we was all new players, i started a corp in eve after my second week of player, im a strong beleiver that the only way to learn is the hardway. it makes learning swift. i picked up all the little tricks right from the start. i becane food for the pk'ers and in doing so i learnt so much about the game exploits and more importantly how not to get caught out by them. it was invaluable information for a new player. and about 6 months later the corp had grown rather quickly with some really nice players and determined folk some of which that had been with us since day one. our drive was to stick it to our agressors lol
and thats exactly what we did, this small 10 man corp that was hounding us every day every week since we started playing who claimed they was useing us a training tool for their pvp corp became our target practice, so much so that we where the ones that where declareing war on them and chaseing them all over eve. in the end they had to call in their friends to stop us. so now it was 3 rater large experience corps of players against our corp of upstarts. nbut that was the last of the player killing we recieved in eve. after that we all ended up on each others friends list and some of their corp even siged up with us when we headed out to 0.0. made some good qaulity friends and allies.
only player killers i dont like are the ones that cant handle their own defeat. the ones that find out they are not god like lol with the best geer.
killed some dude in 0.0 in my carrier, he was in a heavy assault cruiser thats a tech 2 ship, he had all faction modules, we priced it at about a billion isk thats alot for such a small ship. and ill give him c redit where its due he was really really good with it. he took out alot of my miners. well only miners wouldnt stick around for a fair fight. by fair fight i mean my corps military response to his intrusion lol. i.e. a 20 man gang hunting his really really lame attacks on our unarmed players.
he was one of those that logs out when he cant escape. so we did nothing more than wait where he logged out, we waited for a few hours to be honest we had to get this guy. we new if we killed him he would be really really upset with the loss. one tiny ship full of rare faction fittings has got to hurt your feelings in eve. we also new he couldnt replace the fittings anytime soon . that ship was his pride and joy.
so any way back to the story, this harraser logs back in thinking it to be safe!!! not in our space. he came guns blazing so we treated him like we do every one else trying to pick a fight, we gave him the fight he wanted.
this time we was waiting he didnt last long at all. 3 carriers and a few battle ships couple of stealth bombers and our own hacks and a whole ton of drones. was a matter of seconds. we havnt seen him since we even added him to friends so we could see him log in. that is th eonly kind of pk'er i dont like the mardy ones that cant handle not being the don.
Do not bleat at me, little sheep, for this path you chose of your own free will. You knew the wolves lurked here, you simply chose to ignore them. Well I didn't ignore you, regardless of the cloak of illusion you cast about yourself as you seek your place in this world.
- A Shriner, written for ArcticMUD circa 1992
a million times this
some people shouldn't be allowed to stay a thousand miles close to a PvP game, for they cannot stand the heat.
I dont understand why they force thenmselves to play something they clearly dislike, then cry and moan.
Call them eternal optimists of the human spirit. They expect people in MMORPG's to behave with honor, just like they do themselves in real life.
They can't comprehend that there are folks who might be very honorable in real life but once they venture into a game that goes right out the window.
I've come to accept the existence of the latter type and in fact although I'm an honorable carebear, I play PVP games for the fun and excitement, regardless of the fact I die a whole bunch to the gank squad.
I don't expect other players to be like me though, we all pay our fees and play the way we chose to play, I don't begrudge those who wish to play like psychotic killers, I just assume it fulfills some inner need.
See, the problem there is that you have deemed people who play the game as it is intended as dishonorable psychotics. After all, that is your argument to counter the part you highlighted in yellow, correct?
If a low level player is travelling through the territory I control, it's dishonorable for me to kill him, correct? It doesn't matter that he may be doing recon or sending supplies to his team that my men have blockades or that his mere presence in the area is running up a control counter for his team. According to you, if I cause him distress by one-hitting him and sending him packing, it has nothing to do with his complete lack of understanding of how the game is played but because I'm a dishonorable psychopath.
Is it that you don't understand conquest/dominion game design or you just genuinely feel that in a game like RISK, only a dishonroable griefer would attack an army of 2 with an army of 10, as that is what Redencion is talking about. We're not talking about naked lunatics with war axes running into an RP'd tea party and massacring everyone while spouting profanities, however I get the impression that you really see no difference between that scenario and even the most basic of logical strategic gameplay in a game of territory control.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Sure they can be a nice person in real life, the problem is they have no sense of compassion. They play a game like it is a console game, not realizing that pvp in a console game is completely different than a MMO. So if you have interactions with such a person always be aware to watch your back.
I feel that in a true pvp situation, there's nothing wrong with pk'ing or even ganking. However, if your idea of enjoyment is griefing, of purposely and without provocation, trying to make the other player's experience unfun, then you are being a jerk. If you find this kind of thing fun in a game, then you are a jerk in real life too. No exceptions.
Or you could simply you know, be playing the game the way you should be. Just look at faction based or Race vs Race PvP focused games. It cracks me up when i see people in those games QQing about getting killed repeatedly, especially when its their own fault for insisiting on walking right back into the same exact spot when there are a dozen different ways they can reach their goal. The bottom line is, in those types of games the lore itself tells you that you are at WAR with the enemy faction. Should you just sit back and allow your enemy to get stronger without stepping in to hinder their progress? Wouldnt that be an absolutely ridiculous call to make if you were in a real life war situation?
Im all for competetive & balanced PvP, but if you want to compete with me youre not going to get to that point with ease, youre going to need to work your way up and make it there over the corpses of me & everyone else along the way just like those before you. If we're at war and the rules dont prevent me from killing you, youre going to get attacked wether youre a level 1 newbie or a max level geared out PvPer. Like the saying goes, red = dead. That doesnt mean i while go out of my way to just grief you constantly, but if i know theres people doing something like loot/xp farming in a specific spot constantly i will be hitting up that spot constantly for some kills. If youre there every time i show up, then just sucks to be you.
I'm not talking about balance or even competitiveness. Say you kill someone 40 levels below you and completely loot their corpse. Fine, no problem. But if you were to stand there and corpse camp them, then you gain nothing from that other than ruining that player's fun. That is being a jerk. If your idea of enjoyment is not trying to achieve any other goal other than making that player's experience miserable, then yep, you're a d-bag. If the game offers no bonus points or loot for repeatedly killing the person, so you can't claim it's part of the game. If you are the kind of person who finds that activity fun, then you are an a-hole in real life. Guaranteed.
Do not bleat at me, little sheep, for this path you chose of your own free will. You knew the wolves lurked here, you simply chose to ignore them. Well I didn't ignore you, regardless of the cloak of illusion you cast about yourself as you seek your place in this world.
- A Shriner, written for ArcticMUD circa 1992
a million times this
some people shouldn't be allowed to stay a thousand miles close to a PvP game, for they cannot stand the heat.
I dont understand why they force thenmselves to play something they clearly dislike, then cry and moan.
Call them eternal optimists of the human spirit. They expect people in MMORPG's to behave with honor, just like they do themselves in real life.
They can't comprehend that there are folks who might be very honorable in real life but once they venture into a game that goes right out the window.
I've come to accept the existence of the latter type and in fact although I'm an honorable carebear, I play PVP games for the fun and excitement, regardless of the fact I die a whole bunch to the gank squad.
I don't expect other players to be like me though, we all pay our fees and play the way we chose to play, I don't begrudge those who wish to play like psychotic killers, I just assume it fulfills some inner need.
See, the problem there is that you have deemed people who play the game as it is intended as dishonorable psychotics. After all, that is your argument to counter the part you highlighted in yellow, correct?
If a low level player is travelling through the territory I control, it's dishonorable for me to kill him, correct? It doesn't matter that he may be doing recon or sending supplies to his team that my men have blockades or that his mere presence in the area is running up a control counter for his team. According to you, if I cause him distress by one-hitting him and sending him packing, it has nothing to do with his complete lack of understanding of how the game is played but because I'm a dishonorable psychopath.
Is it that you don't understand conquest/dominion game design or you just genuinely feel that in a game like RISK, only a dishonroable griefer would attack an army of 2 with an army of 10, as that is what Redencion is talking about. We're not talking about naked lunatics with war axes running into an RP'd tea party and massacring everyone while spouting profanities, however I get the impression that you really see no difference between that scenario and even the most basic of logical strategic gameplay in a game of territory control.
It's only a problem for the people who he's deemed as being dishonorable psychotics, and only if they care about his and others having that opinion of them.
Personally I share a similar view of the so called 'hardcore' MMO PvP crowd that loves FFA PvP and to be able to curb stomp anyone in their path, especially the underpowered players.
That's not to say that I don't play PvP games. I do, quite a few in fact, but they're FPS and RTS games. But it's different in an MMO where you invest time in your character and develop some sense of attachment to them, which can make death in an MMO, particularly at the hands of a malevolent player, very frustrating.
Call me carebear if you want, but that's just how I, and many, many other MMO gamers view the self proclaimed "hardcore" PvP crowd. That's also why I, and many others, avoid playing MMOs that cater to and encourage this type of player and behavior, because we see it as anti-social if not psychotic behavior in some cases.
If you personally don't see anything wrong with your choice of behaving like dishonorable sociopath in a game, then why do you feel the need to defend your decision from doing so for other players who think that it is?
thing is, by major leaps and bounds the pvp community is MUCH MORE of a QQ community then the pve community. If you want to find out who cry babies are just look at any strong pvp game.
Foundless. Here's the facts. In the wide majority of popular MMOs, 3/4s of anyones time is spent PvEing. The majority of capable PvPers by heart will PvE for the sake of the game, with complaint only towards quality and longevity. They go through all 50 levels or whatnot, just to achieve the endgame dream PvP stage, where all is said in and done in the name of balanced PvP. Yet the PvErs, can't stomach ANY PvP that is not on their watch. Its really easy to see why. They aren't bother by the quantity of PvP, their bothered by the nature of it. Some just won't play a game at all even if there is minuscule chance they may interact with another PvPer before their choosing. There's never been a PvPer in the history of gaming that has expected such. Any player that interacts with the PvEr in any way that subjectively upsets them, is griefing to them, and they justify entire servers without having to experience PvP to enjoy the complete game because they whine the loudest from percieved offences. The same issues threaten the integrity of the justice system when people sue for millions of dollars simply because their "feelings" were hurt.
I will contend that majority of people with rude attitudes and aggresive behavior are PvPers, its the consequence of competition; however, the majority of whining, overblown and entitled emotionally fragile gamers are PvErs by heart. If we're gonna generalize.
Nearly all posts regarding pvp are started by a pvp player complaining about some feature or another not being fair.
Very rarely do I read posts from pve players complaining about all the pvp EXCEPT for all the pvp QQ posts that pollute the forums.
Most PvE players simply dont communicate to those who kill them and having been in darkfall for 2 years I have a good baseline in saying in game pve players DO NOT complain nearly as much as much as pvp player.
The biggest QQers both in game and out of game are nearly always pvp players.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
thing is, by major leaps and bounds the pvp community is MUCH MORE of a QQ community then the pve community. If you want to find out who cry babies are just look at any strong pvp game.
Foundless. Here's the facts. In the wide majority of popular MMOs, 3/4s of anyones time is spent PvEing. The majority of capable PvPers by heart will PvE for the sake of the game, with complaint only towards quality and longevity. They go through all 50 levels or whatnot, just to achieve the endgame dream PvP stage, where all is said in and done in the name of balanced PvP. Yet the PvErs, can't stomach ANY PvP that is not on their watch. Its really easy to see why. They aren't bother by the quantity of PvP, their bothered by the nature of it. Some just won't play a game at all even if there is minuscule chance they may interact with another PvPer before their choosing. There's never been a PvPer in the history of gaming that has expected such. Any player that interacts with the PvEr in any way that subjectively upsets them, is griefing to them, and they justify entire servers without having to experience PvP to enjoy the complete game because they whine the loudest from percieved offences. The same issues threaten the integrity of the justice system when people sue for millions of dollars simply because their "feelings" were hurt.
I will contend that majority of people with rude attitudes and aggresive behavior are PvPers, its the consequence of competition; however, the majority of whining, overblown and entitled emotionally fragile gamers are PvErs by heart. If we're gonna generalize.
Nearly all posts regarding pvp are started by a pvp player complaining about some feature or another not being fair.
Very rarely do I read posts from pve players complaining about all the pvp EXCEPT for all the pvp QQ posts that pollute the forums.
Most PvE players simply dont communicate to those who kill them and having been in darkfall for 2 years I have a good baseline in saying in game pve players DO NOT complain nearly as much as much as pvp player.
The biggest QQers both in game and out of game are nearly always pvp players.
To be fair, there used to be a lot of complaints about PvP back in the pre-trammel Ultima Online days. However, a lot of theose complaints were valid in the sense that there were barely any other options in server rulsets for UO, let alone much of any alternative MMOs to play. As such, if you wanted to play an MMO, you had to put up with a FFA ruleset, and thus deal with PvPers forcing PvP on you whether you wanted it or not.
These days it's drastically different however. The people who don't want PvP forced on them simply avoid server rulesets, or outright avoid MMOs, that cater to the PvP crowd.
You're right in that the majority of PvP complaints come from PvPers. In fact, take a look at the newest MMOs coming out, Xyson for example. The most frequent and loudest complaining is coming from PvPers that they won't have free reign to kill anyone, and that they can be targetted by anyone if they decide to be evil.
Then take a look at Rift, and how much complaining is going on regarding the faction guard NPCs... it really does seem that the PvE players simply just ignore PvP these days.
Do not bleat at me, little sheep, for this path you chose of your own free will. You knew the wolves lurked here, you simply chose to ignore them. Well I didn't ignore you, regardless of the cloak of illusion you cast about yourself as you seek your place in this world.
- A Shriner, written for ArcticMUD circa 1992
a million times this
some people shouldn't be allowed to stay a thousand miles close to a PvP game, for they cannot stand the heat.
I dont understand why they force thenmselves to play something they clearly dislike, then cry and moan.
Call them eternal optimists of the human spirit. They expect people in MMORPG's to behave with honor, just like they do themselves in real life.
They can't comprehend that there are folks who might be very honorable in real life but once they venture into a game that goes right out the window.
I've come to accept the existence of the latter type and in fact although I'm an honorable carebear, I play PVP games for the fun and excitement, regardless of the fact I die a whole bunch to the gank squad.
I don't expect other players to be like me though, we all pay our fees and play the way we chose to play, I don't begrudge those who wish to play like psychotic killers, I just assume it fulfills some inner need.
See, the problem there is that you have deemed people who play the game as it is intended as dishonorable psychotics. After all, that is your argument to counter the part you highlighted in yellow, correct?
If a low level player is travelling through the territory I control, it's dishonorable for me to kill him, correct? It doesn't matter that he may be doing recon or sending supplies to his team that my men have blockades or that his mere presence in the area is running up a control counter for his team. According to you, if I cause him distress by one-hitting him and sending him packing, it has nothing to do with his complete lack of understanding of how the game is played but because I'm a dishonorable psychopath.
Is it that you don't understand conquest/dominion game design or you just genuinely feel that in a game like RISK, only a dishonroable griefer would attack an army of 2 with an army of 10, as that is what Redencion is talking about. We're not talking about naked lunatics with war axes running into an RP'd tea party and massacring everyone while spouting profanities, however I get the impression that you really see no difference between that scenario and even the most basic of logical strategic gameplay in a game of territory control.
It's only a problem for the people who he's deemed as being dishonorable psychotics, and only if they care about his and others having that opinion of them.
Personally I share a similar view of the so called 'hardcore' MMO PvP crowd that loves FFA PvP and to be able to curb stomp anyone in their path, especially the underpowered players.
That's not to say that I don't play PvP games. I do, quite a few in fact, but they're FPS and RTS games. But it's different in an MMO where you invest time in your character and develop some sense of attachment to them, which can make death in an MMO, particularly at the hands of a malevolent player, very frustrating.
Call me carebear if you want, but that's just how I, and many, many other MMO gamers view the self proclaimed "hardcore" PvP crowd. That's also why I, and many others, avoid playing MMOs that cater to and encourage this type of player and behavior, because we see it as anti-social if not psychotic behavior in some cases.
If you personally don't see anything wrong with your choice of behaving like dishonorable sociopath in a game, then why do you feel the need to defend your decision from doing so for other players who think that it is?
You're not even discussing the same topic. Let me clarify.
Dishonorable sociopaths are bad.
No one has disagreed with that. Please, for the love of God, enough already. No one is arguing that.
Anyone that 'ganks' another player is dishonorable and psychotic. <-- That is what is being contested.
Now, since 'gank' is such a vague and useless word, let's put that into definable terms.
Anyone that kills another player who cannot defend himself is dishonorable and psychotic.
Anyone that kills another player with overwhelming numbers is dishonorable and psychotic.
Anyone that kills another player that is much lower in level is dishonorable and psychotic.
Anyone that 'kills another player that was just minding their own business is dishonorable and psychotic.
That pretty much covers all the bases, right? Now, here is where your disconnect with the conversation lies -
Not every game is designed so that a proportionately combat weak character is useless in the grand scheme of the game.
What Redencion and several others are trying to explain is that some people either don't understand the rules of the game they are playing or *do* understand but continue to play the game and complain anyway. This has been explained time and again, but any attempt to explain that is either ignored or countered exactly as you did - with something that no one here is arguing.
What's truly incredible though, is that when one looks back throughout this thread the insults, sweeping generalizations and truly malicious comments presented are primarily from the crowd that, by way of their accusations and aspersions of others, claims to be honorable, empathetic and social.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Do not bleat at me, little sheep, for this path you chose of your own free will. You knew the wolves lurked here, you simply chose to ignore them. Well I didn't ignore you, regardless of the cloak of illusion you cast about yourself as you seek your place in this world.
- A Shriner, written for ArcticMUD circa 1992
a million times this
some people shouldn't be allowed to stay a thousand miles close to a PvP game, for they cannot stand the heat.
I dont understand why they force thenmselves to play something they clearly dislike, then cry and moan.
Call them eternal optimists of the human spirit. They expect people in MMORPG's to behave with honor, just like they do themselves in real life.
They can't comprehend that there are folks who might be very honorable in real life but once they venture into a game that goes right out the window.
I've come to accept the existence of the latter type and in fact although I'm an honorable carebear, I play PVP games for the fun and excitement, regardless of the fact I die a whole bunch to the gank squad.
I don't expect other players to be like me though, we all pay our fees and play the way we chose to play, I don't begrudge those who wish to play like psychotic killers, I just assume it fulfills some inner need.
See, the problem there is that you have deemed people who play the game as it is intended as dishonorable psychotics. After all, that is your argument to counter the part you highlighted in yellow, correct?
If a low level player is travelling through the territory I control, it's dishonorable for me to kill him, correct? It doesn't matter that he may be doing recon or sending supplies to his team that my men have blockades or that his mere presence in the area is running up a control counter for his team. According to you, if I cause him distress by one-hitting him and sending him packing, it has nothing to do with his complete lack of understanding of how the game is played but because I'm a dishonorable psychopath.
Is it that you don't understand conquest/dominion game design or you just genuinely feel that in a game like RISK, only a dishonroable griefer would attack an army of 2 with an army of 10, as that is what Redencion is talking about. We're not talking about naked lunatics with war axes running into an RP'd tea party and massacring everyone while spouting profanities, however I get the impression that you really see no difference between that scenario and even the most basic of logical strategic gameplay in a game of territory control.
It's only a problem for the people who he's deemed as being dishonorable psychotics, and only if they care about his and others having that opinion of them.
Personally I share a similar view of the so called 'hardcore' MMO PvP crowd that loves FFA PvP and to be able to curb stomp anyone in their path, especially the underpowered players.
That's not to say that I don't play PvP games. I do, quite a few in fact, but they're FPS and RTS games. But it's different in an MMO where you invest time in your character and develop some sense of attachment to them, which can make death in an MMO, particularly at the hands of a malevolent player, very frustrating.
Call me carebear if you want, but that's just how I, and many, many other MMO gamers view the self proclaimed "hardcore" PvP crowd. That's also why I, and many others, avoid playing MMOs that cater to and encourage this type of player and behavior, because we see it as anti-social if not psychotic behavior in some cases.
If you personally don't see anything wrong with your choice of behaving like dishonorable sociopath in a game, then why do you feel the need to defend your decision from doing so for other players who think that it is?
You're not even discussing the same topic. Let me clarify.
Dishonorable sociopaths are bad.
No one has disagreed with that. Please, for the love of God, enough already. No one is arguing that.
Anyone that 'ganks' another player is dishonorable and psychotic. <-- That is what is being contested.
Now, since 'gank' is such a vague and useless word, let's put that into definable terms.
Anyone that kills another player who cannot defend himself is dishonorable and psychotic.
Anyone that kills another player with overwhelming numbers is dishonorable and psychotic.
Anyone that kills another player that is much lower in level is dishonorable and psychotic.
Anyone that 'kills another player that was just minding their own business is dishonorable and psychotic.
That pretty much covers all the bases, right? Now, here is where your disconnect with the conversation lies -
Not every game is designed so that a proportionately combat weak character is useless in the grand scheme of the game.
What Redencion and several others are trying to explain is that some people either don't understand the rules of the game they are playing or *do* understand but continue to play the game and complain anyway. This has been explained time and again, but any attempt to explain that is either ignored or countered exactly as you did - with something that no one here is arguing.
What's truly incredible though, is that when one looks back throughout this thread the insults, sweeping generalizations and truly malicious comments presented are primarily from the crowd that, by way of their accusations and aspersions of others, claims to be honorable, empathetic and social.
The only 'escape' to ganking beign acceptable, per your excuse of it, is if the target of said gank is in some way in direct competition with the instigator. Whether it be over finite resources, a rival faction, clan, and particularly so if it's in a contested zone or if the target is trespassing.
All other instances of ganking are dishonorable, and that still constitutes a very large number of ganks that occur.
The only 'escape' to ganking beign acceptable, per your excuse of it, is if the target of said gank is in some way in direct competition with the instigator. Whether it be over finite resources, a rival faction, clan, and particularly so if it's in a contested zone or if the target is trespassing.
All other instances of ganking are dishonorable, and that still constitutes a very large number of ganks that occur.
The 'rival faction' reason pretty much covers every instance of PvP as the person you attack is pretty much assumed to be a 'rival faction'.
The only 'escape' to ganking beign acceptable, per your excuse of it, is if the target of said gank is in some way in direct competition with the instigator. Whether it be over finite resources, a rival faction, clan, and particularly so if it's in a contested zone or if the target is trespassing.
All other instances of ganking are dishonorable, and that still constitutes a very large number of ganks that occur.
The 'rival faction' reason pretty much covers every instance of PvP as the person you attack is pretty much assumed to be a 'rival faction'.
That's a pretty convenient excuse.
In a FFA PvP game, if the person isn't in a clan that's rival to your own, and hasn't done anything to threaten you or known to be associated to anyone who's threatened you, they should be assumed to be neutral.
But then again, I guess that's just my "carebear" idealism with regards to FFA PvP, assuming that other players might actually think that not everyone else is in competition with them, let alone out to get them.
The only 'escape' to ganking beign acceptable, per your excuse of it, is if the target of said gank is in some way in direct competition with the instigator. Whether it be over finite resources, a rival faction, clan, and particularly so if it's in a contested zone or if the target is trespassing.
All other instances of ganking are dishonorable, and that still constitutes a very large number of ganks that occur.
The 'rival faction' reason pretty much covers every instance of PvP as the person you attack is pretty much assumed to be a 'rival faction'.
That's a pretty convenient excuse.
In a FFA PvP game, if the person isn't in a clan that's rival to your own, and hasn't done anything to threaten you or known to be associated to anyone who's threatened you, they should be assumed to be neutral.
But then again, I guess that's just my "carebear" idealism with regards to FFA PvP, assuming that other players might actually think that not everyone else is in competition with them, let alone out to get them.
but then they can get the first jump on you instead of the opposite, setting yourself up for a disadvantage
They can gather/transport resources right under his nose or gather intel on his clan/guild or sabotage his guild's assets...
If a person hasn't played much outside of EQ/WOW variants, it's possible such gameplay is foreign to them.
I mean, if you're a max level character in the typical EQ/WOW MMO and you see someone half your level go by, he isn't worth the spell reagent or ammo it costs to kill him. There's no real info to gather on your guild and anything he collects or makes is completely useless in regard to PVP or any level of competitive gameplay. Yeah the newb is stupid for wandering into the battlefield when he really cant do anything but be a liability to his chosen team, but I don't blame someone for tossing a fireball or two at him for being there and I certainly wouldn't tell him he must be a dishonorable psychopath in real life for doing so - it's not only baseless but rather rude.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Absolutely. People often do things ingame they can't get away with IRL either because it's not in them to do so, or it's like...illegal. And classified as murder.
One of the biggest PKers in Rappelz, a game I played for a long time, became one of my very good friends. The wierd thing is he's this diminutive, shy, extremely sweet guy, but he was absolutely brutal in the game. The kind of guy that would PK you, take your loot, then follow you back to your respawn point and spend the better part of the day annoying you. When I got to know him (I ended up healing for his team, and he joined our guild after), I asked him how it is he's literally two completely different people.
His short answer was that people take video games too seriously. If they'd been a good sport and laughed it off (he only went after reds. And a rival guild that we hated ;3) he would have left them alone after. But they die, they go into nerd rage, start ranting and screaming and somehow instead of upset him, it amused him. I suppose for him it was like a bear attacking a human; lay still and it goes away, cause a fuss and it just wants to eat you even more.
"Forums aren't for intelligent discussion; they're for blow-hards with unwavering opinions."
The only 'escape' to ganking beign acceptable, per your excuse of it, is if the target of said gank is in some way in direct competition with the instigator. Whether it be over finite resources, a rival faction, clan, and particularly so if it's in a contested zone or if the target is trespassing.
All other instances of ganking are dishonorable, and that still constitutes a very large number of ganks that occur.
The 'rival faction' reason pretty much covers every instance of PvP as the person you attack is pretty much assumed to be a 'rival faction'.
That's a pretty convenient excuse.
In a FFA PvP game, if the person isn't in a clan that's rival to your own, and hasn't done anything to threaten you or known to be associated to anyone who's threatened you, they should be assumed to be neutral.
But then again, I guess that's just my "carebear" idealism with regards to FFA PvP, assuming that other players might actually think that not everyone else is in competition with them, let alone out to get them.
but then they can get the first jump on you instead of the opposite, setting yourself up for a disadvantage
They can gather/transport resources right under his nose or gather intel on his clan/guild or sabotage his guild's assets...
If a person hasn't played much outside of EQ/WOW variants, it's possible such gameplay is foreign to them.
I mean, if you're a max level character in the typical EQ/WOW MMO and you see someone half your level go by, he isn't worth the spell reagent or ammo it costs to kill him. There's no real info to gather on your guild and anything he collects or makes is completely useless in regard to PVP or any level of competitive gameplay. Yeah the newb is stupid for wandering into the battlefield when he really cant do anything but be a liability to his chosen team, but I don't blame someone for tossing a fireball or two at him for being there and I certainly wouldn't tell him he must be a dishonorable psychopath in real life for doing so - it's not only baseless but rather rude.
My experience of FFA PvP comes from EVE and there treating strangers as friendly or neutral tends to be a very bad idea outside of high sec space. Before sovereignity was added the only real way to hold territory in the game was to have a shoot-on-sight policy for trasspassers. I was once part of a friendly open-border alliance and we got wrecked because pirates and enemy corps would enter our territory and then attack our miners and traders.
If a PvP game is setup to be about resource competition then you really cannot tolerate tresspassers on resources you have 'claimed'.
In turn WoW's PvP is setup as a 'friendly competition' so a 'play to crush' playstyle there is against the spirity of the game.
The only 'escape' to ganking beign acceptable, per your excuse of it, is if the target of said gank is in some way in direct competition with the instigator. Whether it be over finite resources, a rival faction, clan, and particularly so if it's in a contested zone or if the target is trespassing.
All other instances of ganking are dishonorable, and that still constitutes a very large number of ganks that occur.
The 'rival faction' reason pretty much covers every instance of PvP as the person you attack is pretty much assumed to be a 'rival faction'.
That's a pretty convenient excuse.
In a FFA PvP game, if the person isn't in a clan that's rival to your own, and hasn't done anything to threaten you or known to be associated to anyone who's threatened you, they should be assumed to be neutral.
But then again, I guess that's just my "carebear" idealism with regards to FFA PvP, assuming that other players might actually think that not everyone else is in competition with them, let alone out to get them.
but then they can get the first jump on you instead of the opposite, setting yourself up for a disadvantage
They can gather/transport resources right under his nose or gather intel on his clan/guild or sabotage his guild's assets...
If a person hasn't played much outside of EQ/WOW variants, it's possible such gameplay is foreign to them.
I mean, if you're a max level character in the typical EQ/WOW MMO and you see someone half your level go by, he isn't worth the spell reagent or ammo it costs to kill him. There's no real info to gather on your guild and anything he collects or makes is completely useless in regard to PVP or any level of competitive gameplay. Yeah the newb is stupid for wandering into the battlefield when he really cant do anything but be a liability to his chosen team, but I don't blame someone for tossing a fireball or two at him for being there and I certainly wouldn't tell him he must be a dishonorable psychopath in real life for doing so - it's not only baseless but rather rude.
My experience of FFA PvP comes from EVE and there treating strangers as friendly or neutral tends to be a very bad idea outside of high sec space. Before sovereignity was added the only real way to hold territory in the game was to have a shoot-on-sight policy for trasspassers. I was once part of a friendly open-border alliance and we got wrecked because pirates and enemy corps would enter our territory and then attack our miners and traders.
If a PvP game is setup to be about resource competition then you really cannot tolerate tresspassers on resources you have 'claimed'.
In turn WoW's PvP is setup as a 'friendly competition' so a 'play to crush' playstyle there is against the spirity of the game.
This puts into context what I've been trying to say.
It depends entirely on the context of the game, and the intentions of the players within said game. If there are finite resources to be competed over, then killing people encroaching on your claimed territory is not indescriminatory killing, it's defensive.
On the otherhand, even within a game like this, going around and blowing up people who are mining, when you yourself have absolutely no intention of taking over that territory nor are doing so out of any gain other than "because you can", then you are in fact indescriminately killing, and this should be frowned upon.
It all boils down to what the intended spirit of the game is that helps to frame whether an act of killing another player was done in the spirit of the game, or if it was simply done out of malice.
This puts into context what I've been trying to say.
It depends entirely on the context of the game, and the intentions of the players within said game. If there are finite resources to be competed over, then killing people encroaching on your claimed territory is not indescriminatory killing, it's defensive.
On the otherhand, even within a game like this, going around and blowing up people who are mining, when you yourself have absolutely no intention of taking over that territory nor are doing so out of any gain other than "because you can", then you are in fact indescriminately killing, and this should be frowned upon.
It all boils down to what the intended spirit of the game is that helps to frame whether an act of killing another player was done in the spirit of the game, or if it was simply done out of malice.
Which brings us right back to my comment in page 1. People should pick a game with a culture and ruleset that suits them, not decide that they can walk in to a game and whine their way into changing it to suit them.
Thes people that dream up an imaginary subset of the actual rules and decide that their interpretation is how the game "ought" to be played are asking for trouble. They're quite free to roleplay their character however they like of course, but they have no right to assume that anyone else should feel obliged to respect their concept of what's "cheap" and what's "real PvP" and so on.
And this applies to both sides of the discussion. I dont spend my time in the WoW forums constantly making snark remarks about the lack of freedom in the PvP there or how you can't meaningfully claim territory or whatever. That game isn't for people like me, so there's no point in making myself look dumb by trying to pretend it is, or it should be or even that it ever could be. I dont have a right to say "well I really like the lore and the combat mechanics, but I hate being told I can't attack anyone I like, so I'm entitled to whine endlessly about it to try and get my own way because I'm a special snowflake and what I want counts for more than the preferences of the 11 million guys who already play."
Likewise, I doubt you'd enjoy the intense, no-holds-barred, merciless PvP style of EVE, where the only "crimes" are to be weak or gullible or unlucky. So long as you dont come in to the game and start agitating to change the style the current players enjoy, I'm perfectly happy to respect your preference.
Comments
Call them eternal optimists of the human spirit. They expect people in MMORPG's to behave with honor, just like they do themselves in real life.
They can't comprehend that there are folks who might be very honorable in real life but once they venture into a game that goes right out the window.
I've come to accept the existence of the latter type and in fact although I'm an honorable carebear, I play PVP games for the fun and excitement, regardless of the fact I die a whole bunch to the gank squad.
I don't expect other players to be like me though, we all pay our fees and play the way we chose to play, I don't begrudge those who wish to play like psychotic killers, I just assume it fulfills some inner need.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
thing is, by major leaps and bounds the pvp community is MUCH MORE of a QQ community then the pve community. If you want to find out who cry babies are just look at any strong pvp game.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
Whilst playing Aion I was getting ganked all the time and most battles I was lucky if I even targetted the opposing player before I was as good as dead.
The only way for me to get better was to engage in many more fights.
Inevitably this meant I sometimes 'ganked' players on the opposing faction. Should I feel bad about this? No, I think not as it was in order to improve at the game. I have no problem with opposing players doing the same to me. In a PvP game there are many reasons why other players may attack you.
For anyone being ganked and getting fed up I recommend you do the same. It helped me to get better at PvP and gave me a much stronger sense of what battles I could win when someone did attack me without warning.
I feel that in a true pvp situation, there's nothing wrong with pk'ing or even ganking. However, if your idea of enjoyment is griefing, of purposely and without provocation, trying to make the other player's experience unfun, then you are being a jerk. If you find this kind of thing fun in a game, then you are a jerk in real life too. No exceptions.
Foundless. Here's the facts. In the wide majority of popular MMOs, 3/4s of anyones time is spent PvEing. The majority of capable PvPers by heart will PvE for the sake of the game, with complaint only towards quality and longevity. They go through all 50 levels or whatnot, just to achieve the endgame dream PvP stage, where all is said in and done in the name of balanced PvP. Yet the PvErs, can't stomach ANY PvP that is not on their watch. Its really easy to see why. They aren't bother by the quantity of PvP, their bothered by the nature of it. Some just won't play a game at all even if there is minuscule chance they may interact with another PvPer before their choosing. There's never been a PvPer in the history of gaming that has expected such. Any player that interacts with the PvEr in any way that subjectively upsets them, is griefing to them, and they justify entire servers without having to experience PvP to enjoy the complete game because they whine the loudest from percieved offences. The same issues threaten the integrity of the justice system when people sue for millions of dollars simply because their "feelings" were hurt.
I will contend that majority of people with rude attitudes and aggresive behavior are PvPers, its the consequence of competition; however, the majority of whining, overblown and entitled emotionally fragile gamers are PvErs by heart. If we're gonna generalize.
Or you could simply you know, be playing the game the way you should be. Just look at faction based or Race vs Race PvP focused games. It cracks me up when i see people in those games QQing about getting killed repeatedly, especially when its their own fault for insisiting on walking right back into the same exact spot when there are a dozen different ways they can reach their goal. The bottom line is, in those types of games the lore itself tells you that you are at WAR with the enemy faction. Should you just sit back and allow your enemy to get stronger without stepping in to hinder their progress? Wouldnt that be an absolutely ridiculous call to make if you were in a real life war situation?
Im all for competetive & balanced PvP, but if you want to compete with me youre not going to get to that point with ease, youre going to need to work your way up and make it there over the corpses of me & everyone else along the way just like those before you. If we're at war and the rules dont prevent me from killing you, youre going to get attacked wether youre a level 1 newbie or a max level geared out PvPer. Like the saying goes, red = dead. That doesnt mean i while go out of my way to just grief you constantly, but if i know theres people doing something like loot/xp farming in a specific spot constantly i will be hitting up that spot constantly for some kills. If youre there every time i show up, then just sucks to be you.
I haven't been a pirate for very long, so I'm probably not a good source of data in this respect. However I have been a PvPer in EVE for about 4 years, and so far as I recall I have never received any hatemail. Many - perhaps even most - PvPers in EVE who kill a noob are generally only to ready to give advice on fittings and advice to their victim after the fact. Not to the ones who flip out and send RL death threats, ofc. Those guys we just laugh at, because they're making themselves ridiculous.
Give me liberty or give me lasers
It's more complicated than the text (written by a narcisscist, I believe, though quoted in good faith I am sure by an ordinary poster) quoted in the first post in this thread.
You are a Gamer.
You can be a good person, and not have the least interest in ganking or even PKing.
You can be a jerk or even a sociopath, and for reasons best known to you, not indulge in ganking or PKing. Unlikely, but possible.
You can be a good person, and PK or even gank the characters of other players, some of whom may be respected and even liked by you. Some of them may even be your friends. Others will be people you frankly don't like, but so what? You probably won't be spinning long texts about how you get off on imagining their fear and dismay at being killed in a game-- something that by the way they may not feel or may not feel as much as some folks seem to suppose-- but you'll still be feeling that thrill of the chase and of kill or be killed and of risking your "life" and possibly saving others. You are frankly competitive; you feel some aggression; and you do not like to lose, but you don't bother to keep hating once you've logged out. You never really did hate, anymore than you hate the other team in a sport. [For purposes of disclosure, I fall into this category. I played Irekei in Shadowbane, I got into it, and when we caught a stranger of the "wrong" kind, we killed him, if and as often as we could. Never once intended or really thought about making other *players* unhappy, as we assumed they were there for the PvP along with anything else.]
You can be a real jerk, and of course you'll PK and gank and put a lot of your libido into it, and fantasize about the RL aspects of it, and brag and trashtalk and troll (and probably dupe, cheat, or hack, if you get a chance-- but that's another huge can of worms). You'll probably hate RPers, but oddly enough you'll have very little sense of where the game leaves off and RL begins-- you'll think of yourself as a winner outside the game for what you do inside of it. You'll enjoy being "feared" and if you're not actually feared you won't want to think about the fact that you might not be.
There is a coördinate system of possibilities, and these are the four quadrants of it.
And... wardrobe has nothing to do with it? Like, since when did wearing suits indicate personal virtue?
«Si oblitus fuero usque ad finem omnia opera eorum»
ive played eve-online, it is a game, and yes its a kinda of cut throat game, some people love it and some hate it. its definately the marmite of the gameing world to be sure.
thing is in eve you have to be a pk'er. maybe not so much in the starter locations like empire space where its pretty much a safe heaven for newer players well if they dont form a guild/corporation that is. thing is in eve if you found a guild/corporation your kinda of saying you want to enter open world pvp and thats pretty much exactly what eve is, open world pvp.
while in empire space (nooby area) their are some rules in place and mechanics to force the so called pk'ers to go through a few procedures before being allowed to freely gank newbies like a 24 hour notice to the corporation they have just declared war upon. this unfortunately in eve happens alot and most of the time unprovoked essentially highlighting the player killers in the game.
and then you have the other side to eve, the no law space this is practically empty shards of planets and rocks stuck in by the devs and they have allowed the player base to claim them for their own build massive structures in them and police them and set their own laws and such. i will admit in eve ive found life far far easier and more rewarding and safer in no security space (0.0) their are no game mechanics inplace to prevent people from coming round and player killing you.
instead 0.0 in eve dictates team work, other wise your just a worm on a hook, i think with eve its trying to bring back multiplay to the mmo industry and if i do say myself its doign a really good job of it. people misinterpret eve, they claim it to be a pvp game.
it is not!!
sure the game revolves around war,but if you look to the very foundation of the essence of eve which is ofcourse not the nooby area of empire space but is infact the lawless space. its where every gamer in eve wants to be but not what every gamer wants to deal with.
ill be honest, i had more problems playing eve in empire space than i ever did in 0.0 and now im a null-sec eve vetteran, ok dont misunderstand me when i call myself a vetteran. what im saying is ive passed that barrier we all create between the pvp world and the so called none pvp world, i hate pvp but in eve i kind of like it, i dont know why i just do, ive had my fair share of being spanked and ganked and jumped and oppressed by the mighty. but now its my turn to be that way.
eve is about empire building, not about small corps of 5-10 players roaming round space shooting at everything they see without a blue or purpple star, thats just the pvp mechanics. its true in eve some people are only their to pvp, but trust me when i say these guys are not around for long. ive played eve since 2007 and ive seen entire corps come and go even my own corp. most of them major pvp corps, the fact is war/pvp in eve is exspencive in regaurds to ingame currecny to keep up with. looseing a few ships can cost you like 2-3 months of hard work as a newer player.
im only just starting to feel the reward of playing eve for so long as money for me now is not really an issue in the game, its so much not an issue that ive been able to to play eve for free for the best part of the last 3 years.
eve is about building your empire and building a good qaulity well organised team which is determined to get to the best parts of the game. eve thankfully dictates team work.
i wouldnt say player killers are bad people, i would say they are very diffrent kinds of gamers. they get their buzz from seeing their mighty weapons of space fareing power kill another, it gives them the buzz they like in mmo's for me its all about progression achievment and domination ove certain aspects. not quiet got their in eve yet lol but the game definately supports the play style i wanna pursue.
pk'ers are temporary gamers, they will always be their, i know a few of them and they are all very nice people. although they dont handle loss to well
when they are the ones being pk'ed and the shoe is on the other foot things do change indeed.
we had one corp/guild that used to hound our corp when we was all new players, i started a corp in eve after my second week of player, im a strong beleiver that the only way to learn is the hardway. it makes learning swift. i picked up all the little tricks right from the start. i becane food for the pk'ers and in doing so i learnt so much about the game exploits and more importantly how not to get caught out by them. it was invaluable information for a new player. and about 6 months later the corp had grown rather quickly with some really nice players and determined folk some of which that had been with us since day one. our drive was to stick it to our agressors lol
and thats exactly what we did, this small 10 man corp that was hounding us every day every week since we started playing who claimed they was useing us a training tool for their pvp corp became our target practice, so much so that we where the ones that where declareing war on them and chaseing them all over eve. in the end they had to call in their friends to stop us. so now it was 3 rater large experience corps of players against our corp of upstarts. nbut that was the last of the player killing we recieved in eve. after that we all ended up on each others friends list and some of their corp even siged up with us when we headed out to 0.0. made some good qaulity friends and allies.
only player killers i dont like are the ones that cant handle their own defeat. the ones that find out they are not god like lol with the best geer.
killed some dude in 0.0 in my carrier, he was in a heavy assault cruiser thats a tech 2 ship, he had all faction modules, we priced it at about a billion isk thats alot for such a small ship. and ill give him c redit where its due he was really really good with it. he took out alot of my miners. well only miners wouldnt stick around for a fair fight. by fair fight i mean my corps military response to his intrusion lol. i.e. a 20 man gang hunting his really really lame attacks on our unarmed players.
he was one of those that logs out when he cant escape. so we did nothing more than wait where he logged out, we waited for a few hours to be honest we had to get this guy. we new if we killed him he would be really really upset with the loss. one tiny ship full of rare faction fittings has got to hurt your feelings in eve. we also new he couldnt replace the fittings anytime soon . that ship was his pride and joy.
so any way back to the story, this harraser logs back in thinking it to be safe!!! not in our space. he came guns blazing so we treated him like we do every one else trying to pick a fight, we gave him the fight he wanted.
this time we was waiting he didnt last long at all. 3 carriers and a few battle ships couple of stealth bombers and our own hacks and a whole ton of drones. was a matter of seconds. we havnt seen him since we even added him to friends so we could see him log in. that is th eonly kind of pk'er i dont like the mardy ones that cant handle not being the don.
See, the problem there is that you have deemed people who play the game as it is intended as dishonorable psychotics. After all, that is your argument to counter the part you highlighted in yellow, correct?
If a low level player is travelling through the territory I control, it's dishonorable for me to kill him, correct? It doesn't matter that he may be doing recon or sending supplies to his team that my men have blockades or that his mere presence in the area is running up a control counter for his team. According to you, if I cause him distress by one-hitting him and sending him packing, it has nothing to do with his complete lack of understanding of how the game is played but because I'm a dishonorable psychopath.
Is it that you don't understand conquest/dominion game design or you just genuinely feel that in a game like RISK, only a dishonroable griefer would attack an army of 2 with an army of 10, as that is what Redencion is talking about. We're not talking about naked lunatics with war axes running into an RP'd tea party and massacring everyone while spouting profanities, however I get the impression that you really see no difference between that scenario and even the most basic of logical strategic gameplay in a game of territory control.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Sure they can be a nice person in real life, the problem is they have no sense of compassion. They play a game like it is a console game, not realizing that pvp in a console game is completely different than a MMO. So if you have interactions with such a person always be aware to watch your back.
I'm not talking about balance or even competitiveness. Say you kill someone 40 levels below you and completely loot their corpse. Fine, no problem. But if you were to stand there and corpse camp them, then you gain nothing from that other than ruining that player's fun. That is being a jerk. If your idea of enjoyment is not trying to achieve any other goal other than making that player's experience miserable, then yep, you're a d-bag. If the game offers no bonus points or loot for repeatedly killing the person, so you can't claim it's part of the game. If you are the kind of person who finds that activity fun, then you are an a-hole in real life. Guaranteed.
It's only a problem for the people who he's deemed as being dishonorable psychotics, and only if they care about his and others having that opinion of them.
Personally I share a similar view of the so called 'hardcore' MMO PvP crowd that loves FFA PvP and to be able to curb stomp anyone in their path, especially the underpowered players.
That's not to say that I don't play PvP games. I do, quite a few in fact, but they're FPS and RTS games. But it's different in an MMO where you invest time in your character and develop some sense of attachment to them, which can make death in an MMO, particularly at the hands of a malevolent player, very frustrating.
Call me carebear if you want, but that's just how I, and many, many other MMO gamers view the self proclaimed "hardcore" PvP crowd. That's also why I, and many others, avoid playing MMOs that cater to and encourage this type of player and behavior, because we see it as anti-social if not psychotic behavior in some cases.
If you personally don't see anything wrong with your choice of behaving like dishonorable sociopath in a game, then why do you feel the need to defend your decision from doing so for other players who think that it is?
Nearly all posts regarding pvp are started by a pvp player complaining about some feature or another not being fair.
Very rarely do I read posts from pve players complaining about all the pvp EXCEPT for all the pvp QQ posts that pollute the forums.
Most PvE players simply dont communicate to those who kill them and having been in darkfall for 2 years I have a good baseline in saying in game pve players DO NOT complain nearly as much as much as pvp player.
The biggest QQers both in game and out of game are nearly always pvp players.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
To be fair, there used to be a lot of complaints about PvP back in the pre-trammel Ultima Online days. However, a lot of theose complaints were valid in the sense that there were barely any other options in server rulsets for UO, let alone much of any alternative MMOs to play. As such, if you wanted to play an MMO, you had to put up with a FFA ruleset, and thus deal with PvPers forcing PvP on you whether you wanted it or not.
These days it's drastically different however. The people who don't want PvP forced on them simply avoid server rulesets, or outright avoid MMOs, that cater to the PvP crowd.
You're right in that the majority of PvP complaints come from PvPers. In fact, take a look at the newest MMOs coming out, Xyson for example. The most frequent and loudest complaining is coming from PvPers that they won't have free reign to kill anyone, and that they can be targetted by anyone if they decide to be evil.
Then take a look at Rift, and how much complaining is going on regarding the faction guard NPCs... it really does seem that the PvE players simply just ignore PvP these days.
You're not even discussing the same topic. Let me clarify.
Dishonorable sociopaths are bad.
No one has disagreed with that. Please, for the love of God, enough already. No one is arguing that.
Anyone that 'ganks' another player is dishonorable and psychotic. <-- That is what is being contested.
Now, since 'gank' is such a vague and useless word, let's put that into definable terms.
Anyone that kills another player who cannot defend himself is dishonorable and psychotic.
Anyone that kills another player with overwhelming numbers is dishonorable and psychotic.
Anyone that kills another player that is much lower in level is dishonorable and psychotic.
Anyone that 'kills another player that was just minding their own business is dishonorable and psychotic.
That pretty much covers all the bases, right? Now, here is where your disconnect with the conversation lies -
Not every game is designed so that a proportionately combat weak character is useless in the grand scheme of the game.
What Redencion and several others are trying to explain is that some people either don't understand the rules of the game they are playing or *do* understand but continue to play the game and complain anyway. This has been explained time and again, but any attempt to explain that is either ignored or countered exactly as you did - with something that no one here is arguing.
What's truly incredible though, is that when one looks back throughout this thread the insults, sweeping generalizations and truly malicious comments presented are primarily from the crowd that, by way of their accusations and aspersions of others, claims to be honorable, empathetic and social.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
The only 'escape' to ganking beign acceptable, per your excuse of it, is if the target of said gank is in some way in direct competition with the instigator. Whether it be over finite resources, a rival faction, clan, and particularly so if it's in a contested zone or if the target is trespassing.
All other instances of ganking are dishonorable, and that still constitutes a very large number of ganks that occur.
The 'rival faction' reason pretty much covers every instance of PvP as the person you attack is pretty much assumed to be a 'rival faction'.
That's a pretty convenient excuse.
In a FFA PvP game, if the person isn't in a clan that's rival to your own, and hasn't done anything to threaten you or known to be associated to anyone who's threatened you, they should be assumed to be neutral.
But then again, I guess that's just my "carebear" idealism with regards to FFA PvP, assuming that other players might actually think that not everyone else is in competition with them, let alone out to get them.
They can gather/transport resources right under his nose or gather intel on his clan/guild or sabotage his guild's assets...
If a person hasn't played much outside of EQ/WOW variants, it's possible such gameplay is foreign to them.
I mean, if you're a max level character in the typical EQ/WOW MMO and you see someone half your level go by, he isn't worth the spell reagent or ammo it costs to kill him. There's no real info to gather on your guild and anything he collects or makes is completely useless in regard to PVP or any level of competitive gameplay. Yeah the newb is stupid for wandering into the battlefield when he really cant do anything but be a liability to his chosen team, but I don't blame someone for tossing a fireball or two at him for being there and I certainly wouldn't tell him he must be a dishonorable psychopath in real life for doing so - it's not only baseless but rather rude.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Absolutely. People often do things ingame they can't get away with IRL either because it's not in them to do so, or it's like...illegal. And classified as murder.
One of the biggest PKers in Rappelz, a game I played for a long time, became one of my very good friends. The wierd thing is he's this diminutive, shy, extremely sweet guy, but he was absolutely brutal in the game. The kind of guy that would PK you, take your loot, then follow you back to your respawn point and spend the better part of the day annoying you. When I got to know him (I ended up healing for his team, and he joined our guild after), I asked him how it is he's literally two completely different people.
His short answer was that people take video games too seriously. If they'd been a good sport and laughed it off (he only went after reds. And a rival guild that we hated ;3) he would have left them alone after. But they die, they go into nerd rage, start ranting and screaming and somehow instead of upset him, it amused him. I suppose for him it was like a bear attacking a human; lay still and it goes away, cause a fuss and it just wants to eat you even more.
"Forums aren't for intelligent discussion; they're for blow-hards with unwavering opinions."
Nice to whom? Even a murderer or a Nazi can be a nice family father. *shrug*
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
My experience of FFA PvP comes from EVE and there treating strangers as friendly or neutral tends to be a very bad idea outside of high sec space. Before sovereignity was added the only real way to hold territory in the game was to have a shoot-on-sight policy for trasspassers. I was once part of a friendly open-border alliance and we got wrecked because pirates and enemy corps would enter our territory and then attack our miners and traders.
If a PvP game is setup to be about resource competition then you really cannot tolerate tresspassers on resources you have 'claimed'.
In turn WoW's PvP is setup as a 'friendly competition' so a 'play to crush' playstyle there is against the spirity of the game.
This puts into context what I've been trying to say.
It depends entirely on the context of the game, and the intentions of the players within said game. If there are finite resources to be competed over, then killing people encroaching on your claimed territory is not indescriminatory killing, it's defensive.
On the otherhand, even within a game like this, going around and blowing up people who are mining, when you yourself have absolutely no intention of taking over that territory nor are doing so out of any gain other than "because you can", then you are in fact indescriminately killing, and this should be frowned upon.
It all boils down to what the intended spirit of the game is that helps to frame whether an act of killing another player was done in the spirit of the game, or if it was simply done out of malice.
Which brings us right back to my comment in page 1. People should pick a game with a culture and ruleset that suits them, not decide that they can walk in to a game and whine their way into changing it to suit them.
Thes people that dream up an imaginary subset of the actual rules and decide that their interpretation is how the game "ought" to be played are asking for trouble. They're quite free to roleplay their character however they like of course, but they have no right to assume that anyone else should feel obliged to respect their concept of what's "cheap" and what's "real PvP" and so on.
And this applies to both sides of the discussion. I dont spend my time in the WoW forums constantly making snark remarks about the lack of freedom in the PvP there or how you can't meaningfully claim territory or whatever. That game isn't for people like me, so there's no point in making myself look dumb by trying to pretend it is, or it should be or even that it ever could be. I dont have a right to say "well I really like the lore and the combat mechanics, but I hate being told I can't attack anyone I like, so I'm entitled to whine endlessly about it to try and get my own way because I'm a special snowflake and what I want counts for more than the preferences of the 11 million guys who already play."
Likewise, I doubt you'd enjoy the intense, no-holds-barred, merciless PvP style of EVE, where the only "crimes" are to be weak or gullible or unlucky. So long as you dont come in to the game and start agitating to change the style the current players enjoy, I'm perfectly happy to respect your preference.
Give me liberty or give me lasers