But there *is* sometimes inner malice and unhealthiness behind it. There's also sometimes inner malice and unhealthiness behind non-PvP activity in games.
The point would be that you cannot tell from PvP participation alone, although you may get clues from style.
what many people are not aware of is that its more human nature to cooperate than it is to compete. This isnt just me saying this, study have shown.
When people in a cooperative compete with others the others are de-humanized, thus competition is not a social action because the enamy at that point has been de-humanized.
Which is in relation to empathy. Which is why I would argue that players who enjoy the 'cut throat' competition of FFA PvP, particularly in being te ones doing the throat cutting, have a less developed ability to empathize with others. While they may be able to on some level in person, there is a cognitive disconnect for said people in that their perception of the game reality is one where their own acts of malice can 'do no harm'. Which explains the often repeated "It's just a game" excuse that's often thrown around in excuse of poor behavior in an online game.
This thread is getting more hilarious by the minute.
Glad I'm entertaining you.
To put it in terms you can better understand, PKers and Gankers don't give a shit about how other players feel and do whatever they feel like.
Or is that not accurate?
I wouldn't say you were entertaining me exactly, I think a closer analogy would be with some form of unfortunate accident, it's either a case of laughing or crying at the horror of it all.
So far the case put forward seems to be:
Competitiveness is not a part of human nature.
Competing by it's very nature dehumanizes people.
Everyone who plays an open world pvp game is obviously some kind of sociopath who is 'less human' and cannot empathise as well as the living embodiments of Gandhi you find playing arena based pvp games and pve only games.
PKers should give a shit about the people they kill in a computer game, even though the person they have wiped has paid for and actively chosen to play the game knowing full well what it's ruleset entails.
Re-reading the above points, you can scratch my opening gambit, your case is hilariously entertaining. Just so you don't think i'm a bad person though, the next time I beat my opponent at squash, kill a player character in a game or score a goal at football I'll offer them a cup of tea and ask if they are feeling ok about life.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
FFA PvP and griefing go hand in hand, because it always boils down to KOSing everyone and dry looting them. Whether intentional or not, FFA PVP games always spiral down to this. Players can't trust each other because of the few players who abuse the system to the point where being trustful of anyone is a good way to get yourself stabbed in the back.
What's wrong with KOS-ing and looting? That is not griefing. Griefing is, as I said, when that kind of behaviour bleeds across into directly harrassing the player at the other end of your computer, with no in-game rhyme or reason. As I said, sure, there's a grey area, because part of the fun for PvP is pissing someone off a bit; but most players know the difference between that, and harrassment.
As to the trust point: THAT'S PRECISELY WHAT MAKES TRUST THE MOST VALUABLE COMMODITY IN THOSE GAMES. Way more valuable than whatever toy money the game has.
That's part of what gives them more social and human depth than a game in which everything the player does is against predictable AI.
On a more general note: both co-operation and competition are part of the human spirit, and part of nature as a whole. Creation and destruction take in each others' washing. If there were no destruction, there would be no raw material to build with; if there were no creation, there would be no fun had destroying things. And that's a warning to both "sides".
But then again, I would say that, as I always play "neutral good" characters in D&D and love bringing balance to the Force
I just think it's hilarious that so many people take a well written out post as being utterly serious and yet nieve at the same time. All I was really saying is that PKers and gankers really don't care about what effect they have on other players. They only care about themselves and how to themselves ahead and they don't care about who they screw over to do it. It's an emphasis on extremely competitive gameplay over cooperative gameplay.
If your enemy is hauling weapons to his team, do you kill and loot that character to stop him?
If not., could you explain why not?
If so, would you take his cargo of weapons and give them to your team?
Now, would your answer change if that player was an easy kill for you?
These are reasonable questions about legitimate gameplay in games with territory or resource control.
So far you have called us sociopathic, mentally underdeveloped and various other derogatory terms for our decisions, so I'd like to know what YOU would do in that situation and why you would take that course of action. This is not an unreasonable request and it would help us better understand why you cast such aspersions on people for playing certain games as they are intended.
Does any of your explaination deviate from my premise that 'PKers' and 'gankers' don't care about what effect their actions do to other players?
Whatever excuses or justifications you and others may have for said behavior, does not change the fact that you really don't care if what you do bothers other players.
You keep trying to defend your ingame actions by labeling your targets as enemies. It's a very convenient excuse. Yes there are a lot of games where you are in direct competition, so there isn't a grey area. It's a clear team A vs team B. Where as in FFA MMOs, you don't know your enemies from some random player just trying to go out about his business, or who might otherwise have been willing to jump in and help you should you need it. Basically, FFA MMOs have become overly competitive to the ponit of being anti-social MMOs.
I just think it's hilarious that so many people take a well written out post as being utterly serious and yet nieve at the same time. All I was really saying is that PKers and gankers really don't care about what effect they have on other players. They only care about themselves and how to themselves ahead and they don't care about who they screw over to do it. It's an emphasis on extremely competitive gameplay over cooperative gameplay.
If your enemy is hauling weapons to his team, do you kill and loot that character to stop him?
If not., could you explain why not?
If so, would you take his cargo of weapons and give them to your team?
Now, would your answer change if that player was an easy kill for you?
These are reasonable questions about legitimate gameplay in games with territory or resource control.
So far you have called us sociopathic, mentally underdeveloped and various other derogatory terms for our decisions, so I'd like to know what YOU would do in that situation and why you would take that course of action. This is not an unreasonable request and it would help us better understand why you cast such aspersions on people for playing certain games as they are intended.
Does any of your explaination deviate from my premise that 'PKers' and 'gankers' don't care about what effect their actions do to other players?
Whatever excuses or justifications you and others may have for said behavior, does not change the fact that you really don't care if what you do bothers other players.
You keep trying to defend your ingame actions by labeling your targets as enemies. It's a very convenient excuse. Yes there are a lot of games where you are in direct competition, so there isn't a grey area. It's a clear team A vs team B. Where as in FFA MMOs, you don't know your enemies from some random player just trying to go out about his business, or who might otherwise have been willing to jump in and help you should you need it. Basically, FFA MMOs have become overly competitive to the ponit of being anti-social MMOs.
You don't seem to have grasped the fact that everyone playing an ffa pvp game has elected to by choice. Whatever 'business' ig he/she is going about, part of the ruleset dictates that pvp can occur at any time, at any place and be perpetrated by any party within the rules defined by the game.
FFA pvp could only be 'overly competitive' and/or 'overly antisocial' if it was a ruleset which was suddenly enforced upon a games playerbase without their prior consent/knowledge. But then, that's not the case is it.
Frankly people should be more worried about those individuals who get too engrossed in their on screen persona on an emotional level.You know, those who try to empathise and over analyse every action that takes place in what is essentially a competitive pvp game played by people who have consented to the ruleset in the first place.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
I just think it's hilarious that so many people take a well written out post as being utterly serious and yet nieve at the same time. All I was really saying is that PKers and gankers really don't care about what effect they have on other players. They only care about themselves and how to themselves ahead and they don't care about who they screw over to do it. It's an emphasis on extremely competitive gameplay over cooperative gameplay.
If your enemy is hauling weapons to his team, do you kill and loot that character to stop him?
If not., could you explain why not?
If so, would you take his cargo of weapons and give them to your team?
Now, would your answer change if that player was an easy kill for you?
These are reasonable questions about legitimate gameplay in games with territory or resource control.
So far you have called us sociopathic, mentally underdeveloped and various other derogatory terms for our decisions, so I'd like to know what YOU would do in that situation and why you would take that course of action. This is not an unreasonable request and it would help us better understand why you cast such aspersions on people for playing certain games as they are intended.
Does any of your explaination deviate from my premise that 'PKers' and 'gankers' don't care about what effect their actions do to other players?
Whatever excuses or justifications you and others may have for said behavior, does not change the fact that you really don't care if what you do bothers other players.
You keep trying to defend your ingame actions by labeling your targets as enemies. It's a very convenient excuse. Yes there are a lot of games where you are in direct competition, so there isn't a grey area. It's a clear team A vs team B. Where as in FFA MMOs, you don't know your enemies from some random player just trying to go out about his business, or who might otherwise have been willing to jump in and help you should you need it. Basically, FFA MMOs have become overly competitive to the ponit of being anti-social MMOs.
You don't seem to have grasped the fact that everyone playing an ffa pvp game has elected to by choice. Whatever 'business' ig he/she is going about, part of the ruleset dictates that pvp can occur at any time, at any place and be perpetrated by any party within the rules defined by the game.
FFA pvp could only be 'overly competitive' and/or 'overly antisocial' if it was a ruleset which was suddenly enforced upon a games playerbase without their prior consent/knowledge. But then, that's not the case is it.
Frankly people should be more worried about those individuals who get too engrossed in their on screen persona on an emotional level and who try to empathise and over analyse every action that takes place in what is an essentially competitive pvp game played by people who have consented to the ruleset in the first place.
Oh I get that FFA PvP games have turned into gank fests, and by choosing to play one you're opting into being killed for no good reason, dry looted, corpse camped, or otherwise harassed at the hands of other players.
But see, you're actually the one not getting it. FFA PvP games were not always meant to be this way. FFA PvP rulesets originally existed in order to facilitate a more immersive virtual world MMO experience. It was not until the majority of developers gave up on trying to support such a system after heavy abuse by a minority of players, that sealed the fate of choosing FFA PvP becoming the online equivilant of choosing to walk through Afghanistan waving an Amiercan flag.
FFA PvP MMOs only exist today to cater to the gamers who like to abuse, or be abused (don't read too much into this, I mean it in the overly competitive sense). They have become the anti-social option to an otherwise social medium.
Oh I get that FFA PvP games have turned into gank fests, and by choosing to play one you're opting into being killed for no good reason, dry looted, corpse camped, or otherwise harassed at the hands of other players.
But see, you're actually the one not getting it. FFA PvP games were not always meant to be this way. FFA PvP rulesets originally existed in order to facilitate a more immersive virtual world MMO experience. It was not until the majority of developers gave up on trying to support such a system after heavy abuse by a minority of players, that sealed the fate of choosing FFA PvP becoming the online equivilant of choosing to walk through Afghanistan waving an Amiercan flag.
FFA PvP MMOs only exist today to cater to the gamers who like to abuse, or be abused (don't read too much into this, I mean it in the overly competitive sense). They have become the anti-social option to an otherwise social medium.
So EVE has no depth and no community to speak of then?
It's funny but in my experiences playing ffa pvp enabled and centric mmo's I have rarely been corpse camped or 'griefed' and I have found a large amount of players to be highly social.
But then ofc my experience actually playing ffa games means nothing, those people who didn't simply gank me at every opportunity for no reason and yell expletives really did do all that, it was just my imagination playing tricks on me and, in fact, everyone else in the game (and me by that token) is a total and utter bastard.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
Oh I get that FFA PvP games have turned into gank fests, and by choosing to play one you're opting into being killed for no good reason, dry looted, corpse camped, or otherwise harassed at the hands of other players.
But see, you're actually the one not getting it. FFA PvP games were not always meant to be this way. FFA PvP rulesets originally existed in order to facilitate a more immersive virtual world MMO experience. It was not until the majority of developers gave up on trying to support such a system after heavy abuse by a minority of players, that sealed the fate of choosing FFA PvP becoming the online equivilant of choosing to walk through Afghanistan waving an Amiercan flag.
FFA PvP MMOs only exist today to cater to the gamers who like to abuse, or be abused (don't read too much into this, I mean it in the overly competitive sense). They have become the anti-social option to an otherwise social medium.
So EVE has no depth and no community to speak of then?
It's funny but in my experiences playing ffa pvp enabled and centric mmo's I have rarely been corpse camped or 'griefed' and I have found a large amount of players to be highly social.
But then ofc my experience actually playing ffa games means nothing, those people who didn't simply gank me at every opportunity for no reason and yell expletives really did do all that, it was just my imagination playing tricks on me and, in fact, everyone else in the game (and me by that token) is a total and utter bastard.
Eve isn't pure FFA PvP, because Hi-sec space takes up a good portion of the game.
Oh I get that FFA PvP games have turned into gank fests, and by choosing to play one you're opting into being killed for no good reason, dry looted, corpse camped, or otherwise harassed at the hands of other players.
But see, you're actually the one not getting it. FFA PvP games were not always meant to be this way. FFA PvP rulesets originally existed in order to facilitate a more immersive virtual world MMO experience. It was not until the majority of developers gave up on trying to support such a system after heavy abuse by a minority of players, that sealed the fate of choosing FFA PvP becoming the online equivilant of choosing to walk through Afghanistan waving an Amiercan flag.
FFA PvP MMOs only exist today to cater to the gamers who like to abuse, or be abused (don't read too much into this, I mean it in the overly competitive sense). They have become the anti-social option to an otherwise social medium.
So EVE has no depth and no community to speak of then?
It's funny but in my experiences playing ffa pvp enabled and centric mmo's I have rarely been corpse camped or 'griefed' and I have found a large amount of players to be highly social.
But then ofc my experience actually playing ffa games means nothing, those people who didn't simply gank me at every opportunity for no reason and yell expletives really did do all that, it was just my imagination playing tricks on me and, in fact, everyone else in the game (and me by that token) is a total and utter bastard.
Eve isn't pure FFA PvP, because Hi-sec space takes up a good portion of the game.
EVE is an FFA pvp game. Adding npcs and a rating system does not suddenly mean you cannot be killed by any player, it just means said attacking player has to contend with incoming npc damage.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
Oh I get that FFA PvP games have turned into gank fests, and by choosing to play one you're opting into being killed for no good reason, dry looted, corpse camped, or otherwise harassed at the hands of other players.
But see, you're actually the one not getting it. FFA PvP games were not always meant to be this way. FFA PvP rulesets originally existed in order to facilitate a more immersive virtual world MMO experience. It was not until the majority of developers gave up on trying to support such a system after heavy abuse by a minority of players, that sealed the fate of choosing FFA PvP becoming the online equivilant of choosing to walk through Afghanistan waving an Amiercan flag.
FFA PvP MMOs only exist today to cater to the gamers who like to abuse, or be abused (don't read too much into this, I mean it in the overly competitive sense). They have become the anti-social option to an otherwise social medium.
So EVE has no depth and no community to speak of then?
It's funny but in my experiences playing ffa pvp enabled and centric mmo's I have rarely been corpse camped or 'griefed' and I have found a large amount of players to be highly social.
But then ofc my experience actually playing ffa games means nothing, those people who didn't simply gank me at every opportunity for no reason and yell expletives really did do all that, it was just my imagination playing tricks on me and, in fact, everyone else in the game (and me by that token) is a total and utter bastard.
Eve isn't pure FFA PvP, because Hi-sec space takes up a good portion of the game.
EVE is an FFA pvp game. Adding npcs and a rating system does not suddenly mean you cannot be killed by any player, it just means said attacking player has to contend with incoming npc damage.
The large amount of "carebears" playing Eve in Hi-sec space without much of any worries kind of puts a dent in the concept of Eve being a truly "Free For All" PvP MMO.
Oh I get that FFA PvP games have turned into gank fests, and by choosing to play one you're opting into being killed for no good reason, dry looted, corpse camped, or otherwise harassed at the hands of other players.
But see, you're actually the one not getting it. FFA PvP games were not always meant to be this way. FFA PvP rulesets originally existed in order to facilitate a more immersive virtual world MMO experience. It was not until the majority of developers gave up on trying to support such a system after heavy abuse by a minority of players, that sealed the fate of choosing FFA PvP becoming the online equivilant of choosing to walk through Afghanistan waving an Amiercan flag.
FFA PvP MMOs only exist today to cater to the gamers who like to abuse, or be abused (don't read too much into this, I mean it in the overly competitive sense). They have become the anti-social option to an otherwise social medium.
So EVE has no depth and no community to speak of then?
It's funny but in my experiences playing ffa pvp enabled and centric mmo's I have rarely been corpse camped or 'griefed' and I have found a large amount of players to be highly social.
But then ofc my experience actually playing ffa games means nothing, those people who didn't simply gank me at every opportunity for no reason and yell expletives really did do all that, it was just my imagination playing tricks on me and, in fact, everyone else in the game (and me by that token) is a total and utter bastard.
Eve isn't pure FFA PvP, because Hi-sec space takes up a good portion of the game.
EVE is an FFA pvp game. Adding npcs and a rating system does not suddenly mean you cannot be killed by any player, it just means said attacking player has to contend with incoming npc damage.
The large amount of "carebears" playing Eve in Hi-sec space without much of any worries kind of puts a dent in the concept of Eve being a truly "Free For All" PvP MMO.
Orly? FFA combat is still very much a reality in high-sec. It's just that you will lose your ship within a short period of time if you engage in it without some legal cover. CCP explicitly designed it that way.
Hi-sec is safeER than lo-sec or null-sec, but it is by no means absolutely safe. Sure, a guy doing level 3s in a T1-fit drake is not going to get randomly ganked. But if that same guy manages to piss the wrong person off, then hiding in hi-sec wont save him.
And people flying ships with expensive fittings or cargo would be well-advised to be very, very careful indeed in high-sec. There are numerous players who make a good living out of such people who assume, as you do, that hi-sec is safe.
It's not.
EDIT: Incidentally, the EVE definition of "PvP" is not limited to combat. Some of the biggest victories and defeats in EVE's history go completely un-noticed by everyone who doesn't follow the specific area of the market that they occurred in. The losses incurred are no less devastating becaue of this.
Ceri I gave examples of all this in Lineage 2, Asheron's Call, DAoC, EvE, an even Planetside before.
Not only did they not get it, they seemed to distinctly ignore it. Might have to do with reality damaging their opinions in a way they didn't wanna deal with. Preconceived notions are a really annoying hazard to rational thought.
So far there's been 26 pages of people bantering back and forth just to come back to the same conclusions I explained so long ago.
Honestly, I think this thread just needs to die, because 'they' won't get it, and anyone that argues it isn't going to get anywhere because they will subject your opinion to a lens and polarize the topic matter dependent on how they favor it.
EDIT: Like for example what just happened. The last person extending your argument against gankers to applying to all PvPers even though that's not the argument.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
Oh I get that FFA PvP games have turned into gank fests, and by choosing to play one you're opting into being killed for no good reason, dry looted, corpse camped, or otherwise harassed at the hands of other players.
But see, you're actually the one not getting it. FFA PvP games were not always meant to be this way. FFA PvP rulesets originally existed in order to facilitate a more immersive virtual world MMO experience. It was not until the majority of developers gave up on trying to support such a system after heavy abuse by a minority of players, that sealed the fate of choosing FFA PvP becoming the online equivilant of choosing to walk through Afghanistan waving an Amiercan flag.
FFA PvP MMOs only exist today to cater to the gamers who like to abuse, or be abused (don't read too much into this, I mean it in the overly competitive sense). They have become the anti-social option to an otherwise social medium.
So EVE has no depth and no community to speak of then?
It's funny but in my experiences playing ffa pvp enabled and centric mmo's I have rarely been corpse camped or 'griefed' and I have found a large amount of players to be highly social.
But then ofc my experience actually playing ffa games means nothing, those people who didn't simply gank me at every opportunity for no reason and yell expletives really did do all that, it was just my imagination playing tricks on me and, in fact, everyone else in the game (and me by that token) is a total and utter bastard.
Eve isn't pure FFA PvP, because Hi-sec space takes up a good portion of the game.
EVE is an FFA pvp game. Adding npcs and a rating system does not suddenly mean you cannot be killed by any player, it just means said attacking player has to contend with incoming npc damage.
The large amount of "carebears" playing Eve in Hi-sec space without much of any worries kind of puts a dent in the concept of Eve being a truly "Free For All" PvP MMO.
I'd call it a controlled PVP game. There are game mechanics in place to encourage players not to kill folks in high sec, but as pointed out it doesn't prevent them from killing someone if its within certain rules or if they're willing to take the ship loss in the process.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Oh I get that FFA PvP games have turned into gank fests, and by choosing to play one you're opting into being killed for no good reason, dry looted, corpse camped, or otherwise harassed at the hands of other players.
But see, you're actually the one not getting it. FFA PvP games were not always meant to be this way. FFA PvP rulesets originally existed in order to facilitate a more immersive virtual world MMO experience. It was not until the majority of developers gave up on trying to support such a system after heavy abuse by a minority of players, that sealed the fate of choosing FFA PvP becoming the online equivilant of choosing to walk through Afghanistan waving an Amiercan flag.
FFA PvP MMOs only exist today to cater to the gamers who like to abuse, or be abused (don't read too much into this, I mean it in the overly competitive sense). They have become the anti-social option to an otherwise social medium.
So EVE has no depth and no community to speak of then?
It's funny but in my experiences playing ffa pvp enabled and centric mmo's I have rarely been corpse camped or 'griefed' and I have found a large amount of players to be highly social.
But then ofc my experience actually playing ffa games means nothing, those people who didn't simply gank me at every opportunity for no reason and yell expletives really did do all that, it was just my imagination playing tricks on me and, in fact, everyone else in the game (and me by that token) is a total and utter bastard.
Eve isn't pure FFA PvP, because Hi-sec space takes up a good portion of the game.
EVE is an FFA pvp game. Adding npcs and a rating system does not suddenly mean you cannot be killed by any player, it just means said attacking player has to contend with incoming npc damage.
The large amount of "carebears" playing Eve in Hi-sec space without much of any worries kind of puts a dent in the concept of Eve being a truly "Free For All" PvP MMO.
Given some posts have been removed (lol), I'll respond again.
The fact EVE has 'carebears' and the fact it has npcs in hi sec does not take away from the fact it has an ffa system in place. You can and will be killed in hi sec if someone chooses to attack you for whatever reason, regardless of the risk involved.
As has been mentioned, EVE is far more 'free for all' than any other game when you take into consideration the market warfare and the scams going on.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
EDIT: Like for example what just happened. The last person extending your argument against gankers to applying to all PvPers even though that's not the argument.
Sounds like you need to reread the thread because that was his argument exactly. He states several times that any non-consentual PvP is griefing. You might not have been able to read it so well since you're probably a good distance from your screen, what with you all up high on that horse like that. Non-consensual PVP is FFA PVP. It's entirely possible though that he doesn't really understand what the termnon-consensualPVPreallymeans.
To save you some time, I linked a few of his gems just a page back - saves you some searching.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Playing games is part of real life. If you're a dick while playing a game, you're just a dick.
These games are merely a distraction, mmogawd. They provide an escape from our reality. In such an environment, you can't expect people not to explore sides of themselves that they otherwise would not.
It's a game, try to accept that.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
Playing games is part of real life. If you're a dick while playing a game, you're just a dick.
These games are merely a distraction, mmogawd. They provide an escape from our reality. In such an environment, you can't expect people not to explore sides of themselves that they otherwise would not.
It's a game, try to accept that.
Just because it's a game doesn't mean they're not a dick.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
Playing games is part of real life. If you're a dick while playing a game, you're just a dick.
These games are merely a distraction, mmogawd. They provide an escape from our reality. In such an environment, you can't expect people not to explore sides of themselves that they otherwise would not.
It's a game, try to accept that.
Just because it's a game doesn't mean they're not a dick.
And just because they're PK'ing, doesn't mean they're a dick, either.
I've also met plenty of douchebags in the PvE crowd, so people of those types aren't monopolized in the PvP crowd.
"I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)
so wich thread gets more pages, this one or "why do you play females avatars?" =x
now: GW2 (11 80s). Dark Souls 2. future: Mount&Blade 2 BannerLord. "Bro, do your even fractal?" Recommends: Guild Wars 2, Dark Souls, Mount&Blade: Warband, Kingdoms of Amalur: Reckoning.
Playing games is part of real life. If you're a dick while playing a game, you're just a dick.
These games are merely a distraction, mmogawd. They provide an escape from our reality. In such an environment, you can't expect people not to explore sides of themselves that they otherwise would not.
It's a game, try to accept that.
Just because it's a game doesn't mean they're not a dick.
And just because they're PK'ing, doesn't mean they're a dick, either.
I've also met plenty of douchebags in the PvE crowd, so people of those types aren't monopolized in the PvP crowd.
Did I say that? No.
And great, you found a douche too. I didn't say there weren't some in there too. Wasn't the topic matter though, that's just a sidestep akin to shouting 'He started it!'. It means nothing and only serves as a vain attempt at distraction.
Stop trying to infer more negative babble than what's really there, admit the point for what it actually is, and stop being vindictive over a fact.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
so wich thread gets more pages, this one or "why do you play females avatars?" =x
Let's start a new thread called "why do people PK as female characters" and top both of them!
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Playing games is part of real life. If you're a dick while playing a game, you're just a dick.
These games are merely a distraction, mmogawd. They provide an escape from our reality. In such an environment, you can't expect people not to explore sides of themselves that they otherwise would not.
It's a game, try to accept that.
Just because it's a game doesn't mean they're not a dick.
And just because they're PK'ing, doesn't mean they're a dick, either.
I've also met plenty of douchebags in the PvE crowd, so people of those types aren't monopolized in the PvP crowd.
Did I say that? No.
And great, you found a douche too. I didn't say there weren't some in there too. Wasn't the topic matter though, that's just a sidestep akin to shouting 'He started it!'. It means nothing and only serves as a vain attempt at distraction.
Stop trying to infer more negative babble than what's really there, admit the point for what it actually is, and stop being vindictive over a fact.
Who's being vindictive around here? Maybe you need to read your own posts. It was a pretty damn nice blanket statement.
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Kenaoshi
so wich thread gets more pages, this one or "why do you play females avatars?" =x
Let's start a new thread called "why do people PK as female characters" and top both of them!
That's easy. If you're going to slay others, at least do it in a sexeh style.
"I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)
Playing games is part of real life. If you're a dick while playing a game, you're just a dick.
These games are merely a distraction, mmogawd. They provide an escape from our reality. In such an environment, you can't expect people not to explore sides of themselves that they otherwise would not.
It's a game, try to accept that.
Just because it's a game doesn't mean they're not a dick.
And just because they're PK'ing, doesn't mean they're a dick, either.
I've also met plenty of douchebags in the PvE crowd, so people of those types aren't monopolized in the PvP crowd.
Did I say that? No.
And great, you found a douche too. I didn't say there weren't some in there too. Wasn't the topic matter though, that's just a sidestep akin to shouting 'He started it!'. It means nothing and only serves as a vain attempt at distraction.
Stop trying to infer more negative babble than what's really there, admit the point for what it actually is, and stop being vindictive over a fact.
Who's being vindictive around here? Maybe you need to read your own posts. It was a pretty damn nice blanket statement.
Blanket statement how?
How does saying one thing doesn't make another thing not what it is translate to calling everything that?
Just because it's a game doesn't mean they're not a dick.
What part of that implies any sort of sum external to those that have 'dickish' tendencies?
That's an interpretation and aspect that's solely on you and your imagination.
You want me to read my own posts? Sure, then maybe you can do the same and read my posts too, so that you can see that your offhand comment has no grounding. More especially, my posts on page 5-6 and how they lovingly summarize everything it's taken everyone else night thirty pages to achieve the same conclusions on.
I say vindictive, because unless you worked hard enough to take offense to the comment, there's no reason to pick up something so trivial. Especially when you have to misinterpret it rather amazingly to achieve the end goal of having something to complain about.
So I repeat with modification to appease the irate.
Stop trying to infer more negative babble than what's really there and admit the point for what it actually is.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
Comments
I wouldn't say you were entertaining me exactly, I think a closer analogy would be with some form of unfortunate accident, it's either a case of laughing or crying at the horror of it all.
So far the case put forward seems to be:
Competitiveness is not a part of human nature.
Competing by it's very nature dehumanizes people.
Everyone who plays an open world pvp game is obviously some kind of sociopath who is 'less human' and cannot empathise as well as the living embodiments of Gandhi you find playing arena based pvp games and pve only games.
PKers should give a shit about the people they kill in a computer game, even though the person they have wiped has paid for and actively chosen to play the game knowing full well what it's ruleset entails.
Re-reading the above points, you can scratch my opening gambit, your case is hilariously entertaining. Just so you don't think i'm a bad person though, the next time I beat my opponent at squash, kill a player character in a game or score a goal at football I'll offer them a cup of tea and ask if they are feeling ok about life.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
What's wrong with KOS-ing and looting? That is not griefing. Griefing is, as I said, when that kind of behaviour bleeds across into directly harrassing the player at the other end of your computer, with no in-game rhyme or reason. As I said, sure, there's a grey area, because part of the fun for PvP is pissing someone off a bit; but most players know the difference between that, and harrassment.
As to the trust point: THAT'S PRECISELY WHAT MAKES TRUST THE MOST VALUABLE COMMODITY IN THOSE GAMES. Way more valuable than whatever toy money the game has.
That's part of what gives them more social and human depth than a game in which everything the player does is against predictable AI.
On a more general note: both co-operation and competition are part of the human spirit, and part of nature as a whole. Creation and destruction take in each others' washing. If there were no destruction, there would be no raw material to build with; if there were no creation, there would be no fun had destroying things. And that's a warning to both "sides".
But then again, I would say that, as I always play "neutral good" characters in D&D and love bringing balance to the Force
Does any of your explaination deviate from my premise that 'PKers' and 'gankers' don't care about what effect their actions do to other players?
Whatever excuses or justifications you and others may have for said behavior, does not change the fact that you really don't care if what you do bothers other players.
You keep trying to defend your ingame actions by labeling your targets as enemies. It's a very convenient excuse. Yes there are a lot of games where you are in direct competition, so there isn't a grey area. It's a clear team A vs team B. Where as in FFA MMOs, you don't know your enemies from some random player just trying to go out about his business, or who might otherwise have been willing to jump in and help you should you need it. Basically, FFA MMOs have become overly competitive to the ponit of being anti-social MMOs.
Can a MMO PKer/ganker be a kind nice person in RL? Yes
A ganker transfers his bad day onto someone else, and actively rids himself/herself of their frustrations and anger.
The real question is, will the victims of PKers/gankers go postal in a mall because they are unable to pass their frustrations off?
And do MMO carebear QQers end up being whiners in real life?
All of my posts are either intelligent, thought provoking, funny, satirical, sarcastic or intentionally disrespectful. Take your pick.
I get banned in the forums for games I love, so lets see if I do better in the forums for games I hate.
I enjoy the serenity of not caring what your opinion is.
I don't hate much, but I hate Apple© with a passion. If Steve Jobs was alive, I would punch him in the face.
You don't seem to have grasped the fact that everyone playing an ffa pvp game has elected to by choice. Whatever 'business' ig he/she is going about, part of the ruleset dictates that pvp can occur at any time, at any place and be perpetrated by any party within the rules defined by the game.
FFA pvp could only be 'overly competitive' and/or 'overly antisocial' if it was a ruleset which was suddenly enforced upon a games playerbase without their prior consent/knowledge. But then, that's not the case is it.
Frankly people should be more worried about those individuals who get too engrossed in their on screen persona on an emotional level.You know, those who try to empathise and over analyse every action that takes place in what is essentially a competitive pvp game played by people who have consented to the ruleset in the first place.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
Oh I get that FFA PvP games have turned into gank fests, and by choosing to play one you're opting into being killed for no good reason, dry looted, corpse camped, or otherwise harassed at the hands of other players.
But see, you're actually the one not getting it. FFA PvP games were not always meant to be this way. FFA PvP rulesets originally existed in order to facilitate a more immersive virtual world MMO experience. It was not until the majority of developers gave up on trying to support such a system after heavy abuse by a minority of players, that sealed the fate of choosing FFA PvP becoming the online equivilant of choosing to walk through Afghanistan waving an Amiercan flag.
FFA PvP MMOs only exist today to cater to the gamers who like to abuse, or be abused (don't read too much into this, I mean it in the overly competitive sense). They have become the anti-social option to an otherwise social medium.
So EVE has no depth and no community to speak of then?
It's funny but in my experiences playing ffa pvp enabled and centric mmo's I have rarely been corpse camped or 'griefed' and I have found a large amount of players to be highly social.
But then ofc my experience actually playing ffa games means nothing, those people who didn't simply gank me at every opportunity for no reason and yell expletives really did do all that, it was just my imagination playing tricks on me and, in fact, everyone else in the game (and me by that token) is a total and utter bastard.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
Eve isn't pure FFA PvP, because Hi-sec space takes up a good portion of the game.
EVE is an FFA pvp game. Adding npcs and a rating system does not suddenly mean you cannot be killed by any player, it just means said attacking player has to contend with incoming npc damage.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
The large amount of "carebears" playing Eve in Hi-sec space without much of any worries kind of puts a dent in the concept of Eve being a truly "Free For All" PvP MMO.
Orly? FFA combat is still very much a reality in high-sec. It's just that you will lose your ship within a short period of time if you engage in it without some legal cover. CCP explicitly designed it that way.
Hi-sec is safeER than lo-sec or null-sec, but it is by no means absolutely safe. Sure, a guy doing level 3s in a T1-fit drake is not going to get randomly ganked. But if that same guy manages to piss the wrong person off, then hiding in hi-sec wont save him.
And people flying ships with expensive fittings or cargo would be well-advised to be very, very careful indeed in high-sec. There are numerous players who make a good living out of such people who assume, as you do, that hi-sec is safe.
It's not.
EDIT: Incidentally, the EVE definition of "PvP" is not limited to combat. Some of the biggest victories and defeats in EVE's history go completely un-noticed by everyone who doesn't follow the specific area of the market that they occurred in. The losses incurred are no less devastating becaue of this.
Give me liberty or give me lasers
Ceri I gave examples of all this in Lineage 2, Asheron's Call, DAoC, EvE, an even Planetside before.
Not only did they not get it, they seemed to distinctly ignore it. Might have to do with reality damaging their opinions in a way they didn't wanna deal with. Preconceived notions are a really annoying hazard to rational thought.
So far there's been 26 pages of people bantering back and forth just to come back to the same conclusions I explained so long ago.
Honestly, I think this thread just needs to die, because 'they' won't get it, and anyone that argues it isn't going to get anywhere because they will subject your opinion to a lens and polarize the topic matter dependent on how they favor it.
EDIT: Like for example what just happened. The last person extending your argument against gankers to applying to all PvPers even though that's not the argument.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
I'd call it a controlled PVP game. There are game mechanics in place to encourage players not to kill folks in high sec, but as pointed out it doesn't prevent them from killing someone if its within certain rules or if they're willing to take the ship loss in the process.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Given some posts have been removed (lol), I'll respond again.
The fact EVE has 'carebears' and the fact it has npcs in hi sec does not take away from the fact it has an ffa system in place. You can and will be killed in hi sec if someone chooses to attack you for whatever reason, regardless of the risk involved.
As has been mentioned, EVE is far more 'free for all' than any other game when you take into consideration the market warfare and the scams going on.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
Sounds like you need to reread the thread because that was his argument exactly. He states several times that any non-consentual PvP is griefing. You might not have been able to read it so well since you're probably a good distance from your screen, what with you all up high on that horse like that. Non-consensual PVP is FFA PVP. It's entirely possible though that he doesn't really understand what the term non-consensual PVP really means.
To save you some time, I linked a few of his gems just a page back - saves you some searching.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Playing games is part of real life. If you're a dick while playing a game, you're just a dick.
These games are merely a distraction, mmogawd. They provide an escape from our reality. In such an environment, you can't expect people not to explore sides of themselves that they otherwise would not.
It's a game, try to accept that.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
Just because it's a game doesn't mean they're not a dick.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
And just because they're PK'ing, doesn't mean they're a dick, either.
I've also met plenty of douchebags in the PvE crowd, so people of those types aren't monopolized in the PvP crowd.
"I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)
so wich thread gets more pages, this one or "why do you play females avatars?" =x
now: GW2 (11 80s).
Dark Souls 2.
future: Mount&Blade 2 BannerLord.
"Bro, do your even fractal?"
Recommends: Guild Wars 2, Dark Souls, Mount&Blade: Warband, Kingdoms of Amalur: Reckoning.
Did I say that? No.
And great, you found a douche too. I didn't say there weren't some in there too. Wasn't the topic matter though, that's just a sidestep akin to shouting 'He started it!'. It means nothing and only serves as a vain attempt at distraction.
Stop trying to infer more negative babble than what's really there, admit the point for what it actually is, and stop being vindictive over a fact.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
Let's start a new thread called "why do people PK as female characters" and top both of them!
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Iunno, the answer to that question seems so obvious I think most people would agree all too quickly.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
Who's being vindictive around here? Maybe you need to read your own posts. It was a pretty damn nice blanket statement.
That's easy. If you're going to slay others, at least do it in a sexeh style.
"I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)
Blanket statement how?
How does saying one thing doesn't make another thing not what it is translate to calling everything that?
Just because it's a game doesn't mean they're not a dick.
What part of that implies any sort of sum external to those that have 'dickish' tendencies?
That's an interpretation and aspect that's solely on you and your imagination.
You want me to read my own posts? Sure, then maybe you can do the same and read my posts too, so that you can see that your offhand comment has no grounding. More especially, my posts on page 5-6 and how they lovingly summarize everything it's taken everyone else night thirty pages to achieve the same conclusions on.
I say vindictive, because unless you worked hard enough to take offense to the comment, there's no reason to pick up something so trivial. Especially when you have to misinterpret it rather amazingly to achieve the end goal of having something to complain about.
So I repeat with modification to appease the irate.
Stop trying to infer more negative babble than what's really there and admit the point for what it actually is.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin