The only 'escape' to ganking beign acceptable, per your excuse of it, is if the target of said gank is in some way in direct competition with the instigator. Whether it be over finite resources, a rival faction, clan, and particularly so if it's in a contested zone or if the target is trespassing.
All other instances of ganking are dishonorable, and that still constitutes a very large number of ganks that occur.
The 'rival faction' reason pretty much covers every instance of PvP as the person you attack is pretty much assumed to be a 'rival faction'.
That's a pretty convenient excuse.
In a FFA PvP game, if the person isn't in a clan that's rival to your own, and hasn't done anything to threaten you or known to be associated to anyone who's threatened you, they should be assumed to be neutral.
But then again, I guess that's just my "carebear" idealism with regards to FFA PvP, assuming that other players might actually think that not everyone else is in competition with them, let alone out to get them.
but then they can get the first jump on you instead of the opposite, setting yourself up for a disadvantage
They can gather/transport resources right under his nose or gather intel on his clan/guild or sabotage his guild's assets...
If a person hasn't played much outside of EQ/WOW variants, it's possible such gameplay is foreign to them.
I mean, if you're a max level character in the typical EQ/WOW MMO and you see someone half your level go by, he isn't worth the spell reagent or ammo it costs to kill him. There's no real info to gather on your guild and anything he collects or makes is completely useless in regard to PVP or any level of competitive gameplay. Yeah the newb is stupid for wandering into the battlefield when he really cant do anything but be a liability to his chosen team, but I don't blame someone for tossing a fireball or two at him for being there and I certainly wouldn't tell him he must be a dishonorable psychopath in real life for doing so - it's not only baseless but rather rude.
My experience of FFA PvP comes from EVE and there treating strangers as friendly or neutral tends to be a very bad idea outside of high sec space. Before sovereignity was added the only real way to hold territory in the game was to have a shoot-on-sight policy for trasspassers. I was once part of a friendly open-border alliance and we got wrecked because pirates and enemy corps would enter our territory and then attack our miners and traders.
If a PvP game is setup to be about resource competition then you really cannot tolerate tresspassers on resources you have 'claimed'.
In turn WoW's PvP is setup as a 'friendly competition' so a 'play to crush' playstyle there is against the spirity of the game.
Torik, that's pretty much the whole thing in a nutshell - the spirit of the game. UO had that in its Codeof Conduct for years and then it seemed to disappear when OSI disappeared. I had always hoped others would others would adopt a 'spirit of the game' rule but very few did.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
This puts into context what I've been trying to say.
It depends entirely on the context of the game, and the intentions of the players within said game. If there are finite resources to be competed over, then killing people encroaching on your claimed territory is not indescriminatory killing, it's defensive.
On the otherhand, even within a game like this, going around and blowing up people who are mining, when you yourself have absolutely no intention of taking over that territory nor are doing so out of any gain other than "because you can", then you are in fact indescriminately killing, and this should be frowned upon.
It all boils down to what the intended spirit of the game is that helps to frame whether an act of killing another player was done in the spirit of the game, or if it was simply done out of malice.
Which brings us right back to my comment in page 1. People should pick a game with a culture and ruleset that suits them, not decide that they can walk in to a game and whine their way into changing it to suit them.
Thes people that dream up an imaginary subset of the actual rules and decide that their interpretation is how the game "ought" to be played are asking for trouble. They're quite free to roleplay their character however they like of course, but they have no right to assume that anyone else should feel obliged to respect their concept of what's "cheap" and what's "real PvP" and so on.
And this applies to both sides of the discussion. I dont spend my time in the WoW forums constantly making snark remarks about the lack of freedom in the PvP there or how you can't meaningfully claim territory or whatever. That game isn't for people like me, so there's no point in making myself look dumb by trying to pretend it is, or it should be or even that it ever could be. I dont have a right to say "well I really like the lore and the combat mechanics, but I hate being told I can't attack anyone I like, so I'm entitled to whine endlessly about it to try and get my own way because I'm a special snowflake and what I want counts for more than the preferences of the 11 million guys who already play."
Likewise, I doubt you'd enjoy the intense, no-holds-barred, merciless PvP style of EVE, where the only "crimes" are to be weak or gullible or unlucky. So long as you dont come in to the game and start agitating to change the style the current players enjoy, I'm perfectly happy to respect your preference.
I agree with you on the whole, but I'd just like to point out that there are some players of EVE who hardly engage in PvP at all - in fact, who avoid it, and use the tools CCP have given, to avoid it.
And from CCP's point of view that is a form of PvP too.
For example, I moved house recently, loaded up my BS with all my necessaries in cargohold, all WCS in lows, shields, hardeners and a bit of ewar in the mids and ran a pipe through 0.0. Huge fun chase - even got caught in a bubble at one point. Each system, they called another few mates in, trying to point and tackle, etc., etc. I got through by the skin of my teeth. I couldn't stop shaking for about five minutes afterwards!
I hope they were frustrated
But basically I don't like to "hurt" people, I've tried, god knows I've tried, but I just don't have a killer instinct. I've been killed loads of times, but I'm gradually getting better at defending myself in PvP in EVE - to the extent that in a couple of fights recently, they've warped out after I've gotten them down to hull. But I don't have any point or anything, and I let them warp out.
So why do I bother, you might ask, if I don't have that killer instinct? Well, because EVE, for all its faults, is the best s-f game in town atm. All I'm interested in is goofing off pretending to be a space pilot, and I just tolerate the PvP, plus it adds a bit of spice and depth to my pretending to be a space pilot.
I suspect that there are more people like me playing EVE than you might imagine - consider the statistics that were put out a while ago about how most players stick in Empire. Granted, a few of those will be PvP-ers doing some missioning or mining to stock up for their next foray, but I reckon many of those are just people who, like me, play EVE because it's a good game in many other respects, and just tolerate the PvP, and take it as a background hum to give a sense of danger and excitement to their PvE.
I should imagine something similar for other FFA PvP games. If they're atmospheric like EVE or Darkfall, lots of people will play them and just tolerate the PvP. It would be idiotic to complain about the PvP if one has chosen to play a FFA PvP game, but at the same time, but one doesn't have to like PvP (in the "killer instinct" sense) to play a PvP game.
As far as I'm concerned, the menality of PKers is the same as those jerks who cut you off in traffic, cut in line, bitch at the manager till they get their way, have full conversations on the cell phone when with company, lie on their tax returns, be nice to your face then stab in you the back, embellish stories to make themselves look better.....etc. People may role play online, but their underlying morals are usually the same in game and out.
word
and i was just playing a game wich i knew was pvp orientated but being killed without a reason any other than just being a killed made me uninstall the game. freedom of choise i sing not forced.
So basically, you joined PVP/PK game fully knowing it was based on something you dislike, and then not only you whine but call "social rejects" to those players who enjoy the game and all of it´s features and play by the officially established rules, because they don´t match your made-up-out-of-convenience "social" rules that you wield only to do whatever you wish the way you think it´s right?
Riiiiiiight.
People like you are the blight of PVP oriented games.
"Being killed for no reason"?
In a pvp game your existance is reason enough to murder you, not to count usually murdering people in pvp games awards some kind of points or currency to buy pvp gear, so yeah , there is plenty of motives to kill you.
And again, it´s a pvp game, your existance in the rival faction / wrong place is reason enough.
PVP games are made for people who enjoy any kind of brutal PVP, if you do not agree, choose the pvE server / A pvE mmorpg.
P.S: I am not even a PVP´er myself and i play on a PVE realm on WoW, but i say : Leave the PVP scenarios to those who want to make full use of them , and stop whining.
Anyone who gets pleasure from intentionally and maliciously ruining others play experience and/ or incite emotional states in others (rage) as a means of controlling them is not a healthy person. It actually shows deep low self esteem issues on their part and has a lot in common with the bully mentallity.
Players that need to do this may be convinced they are 'nice guys', but they arnt, not really. Self delusion will carry a person a long way though. More folks need to look deeper into themselves and examine WHY making others unhappy/ angry gives them so much pleasure.
I have said it before, but the games that we choose to play, and how we choose to play them, defines us as a society and as individuals. How people act in world without consequence (the internet for the most part) is imo a lot closer to their true self then the day to day exterior the probably show to the world.
As far as I'm concerned, the menality of PKers is the same as those jerks who cut you off in traffic, cut in line, bitch at the manager till they get their way, have full conversations on the cell phone when with company, lie on their tax returns, be nice to your face then stab in you the back, embellish stories to make themselves look better.....etc. People may role play online, but their underlying morals are usually the same in game and out.
word
and i was just playing a game wich i knew was pvp orientated but being killed without a reason any other than just being a killed made me uninstall the game. freedom of choise i sing not forced.
So basically, you joined PVP/PK game fully knowing it was based on something you dislike, and then not only you whine but call "social rejects" to those players who enjoy the game and all of it´s features and play by the officially established rules, because they don´t match your made-up-out-of-convenience "social" rules that you wield only to do whatever you wish the way you think it´s right?
Riiiiiiight.
People like you are the blight of PVP oriented games.
"Being killed for no reason"?
In a pvp game your existance is reason enough to murder you, not to count usually murdering people in pvp games awards some kind of points or currency to buy pvp gear, so yeah , there is plenty of motives to kill you.
And again, it´s a pvp game, your existance in the rival faction / wrong place is reason enough.
PVP games are made for people who enjoy any kind of brutal PVP, if you do not agree, choose the pvE server / A pvE mmorpg.
P.S: I am not even a PVP´er myself and i play on a PVE realm on WoW, but i say : Leave the PVP scenarios to those who want to make full use of them , and stop whining.
You can translate m0llys post as "I tried a pvp game but I sucked at it because I was incapable or unwilling to learn the game mechanics and got owned so I rage quit"
I think at least 50% of the time sucking at games causes anti pvp whines I really do, players don't act like bots and are quicker to punish mistakes and most MMO gamers are not used to actually playing a game because they are used to activating powers or attacks and watching their char do everything and it gives pvpers an edge because they are willing to learn the mechanics and will try to practice and hone their control of their character to be more successful in pvp.
Carbears don't so they get owned and then get mad and cry "griefer!!!"
Currently playing:
EVE online (Ruining low sec one hotdrop at a time)
Gravity Rush, Dishonoured: The Knife of Dunwall.
(Waiting for) Metro: Last Light, Company of Heroes II.
Anyone who gets pleasure from intentionally and maliciously ruining others play experience and/ or incite emotional states in others (rage) as a means of controlling them is not a healthy person. It actually shows deep low self esteem issues on their part and has a lot in common with the bully mentallity.
Players that need to do this may be convinced they are 'nice guys', but they arnt, not really. Self delusion will carry a person a long way though. More folks need to look deeper into themselves and examine WHY making others unhappy/ angry gives them so much pleasure.
I have said it before, but the games that we choose to play, and how we choose to play them, defines us as a society and as individuals. How people act in world without consequence (the internet for the most part) is imo a lot closer to their true self then the day to day exterior the probably show to the world.
Getting ganked should not "Ruin your experience" because when you joined Gankfreeland you should have done so by knowing, accepting and embracing EVERYTHING it had to offer, especially it´s most extreme features.
Geez, most games even tell you nowadays, when you select a pvp server or even in the game rule set FAQ " Warning : This server is pvp based and incidents such as ganking and corpse camping may occur to you"
If you feel that said features are "disrupting your gameplay and enjoyment" you have only yourself to blame.
And thus, if said activities should not "ruin your experience" being so that you signed up for them, willing or not, then said pk´ers are just as nice as everyone else, they simply play by the established rules.
Now, i am not a fool, i know there IS people who pvp´s only to see if he can make people upset, but come on, none of you carebears can look at me straight in the eyes and tell me you truly believe its the majority of PVP players.
There is a little asshat in all of us. In some it is a larger one. which does not necessarily mean that pkers have a larger one inside, i guess.
In RL social control is strict and has dire consequences, so, logically, more ppl behave there and are nice. they have to.
In the internet there is almost no social control, same for games. Any consequences are virtual and temporary at best, none are forever. noone informs your peers to feel ashamed about you, e.g. your family, noone fires you, breaks your arm, sues you or shoots you. at worst you lose your account and must start anew or go to another game.
Some people like to let loose their bully inside since their are no big consequences. others dont, others don't even have the desire to do so.
the question is: would they pk ppl if they knew, that the other side would not care at all? i am sure they wouldn't bother.
a) some people have the idea that games are about fairness (like sports), these generally _tend_ not to pk imo.
b) others just see what works for them, to give them the edge to win. the less chance the opponent has, just the better. pks tend to be in this group.
c) some ppl just want to be left alone and not care about pvp at all. or not at all times.
group a and b dont get along well together, just as b and c, a&c should be ok.
group a is self-sufficient, c anyway, but group b needs group a and c.
group a needs challenging opponents. group b needs victims.
years ago i tried to gank ppl in shadowbane, after being ganked dozens of times. there was some thrill for the hunt, but after that i just felt sorry for the poor bastards we assassinated. they had little chance. there was no challenge. it was pointless, i did not enjoy it. others do.
the interesting question to me is, can a game be designed in a way, where all 3 groups can play and enjoy themselves _most_ of the time?
This puts into context what I've been trying to say.
It depends entirely on the context of the game, and the intentions of the players within said game. If there are finite resources to be competed over, then killing people encroaching on your claimed territory is not indescriminatory killing, it's defensive.
On the otherhand, even within a game like this, going around and blowing up people who are mining, when you yourself have absolutely no intention of taking over that territory nor are doing so out of any gain other than "because you can", then you are in fact indescriminately killing, and this should be frowned upon.
It all boils down to what the intended spirit of the game is that helps to frame whether an act of killing another player was done in the spirit of the game, or if it was simply done out of malice.
Which brings us right back to my comment in page 1. People should pick a game with a culture and ruleset that suits them, not decide that they can walk in to a game and whine their way into changing it to suit them.
Thes people that dream up an imaginary subset of the actual rules and decide that their interpretation is how the game "ought" to be played are asking for trouble. They're quite free to roleplay their character however they like of course, but they have no right to assume that anyone else should feel obliged to respect their concept of what's "cheap" and what's "real PvP" and so on.
And this applies to both sides of the discussion. I dont spend my time in the WoW forums constantly making snark remarks about the lack of freedom in the PvP there or how you can't meaningfully claim territory or whatever. That game isn't for people like me, so there's no point in making myself look dumb by trying to pretend it is, or it should be or even that it ever could be. I dont have a right to say "well I really like the lore and the combat mechanics, but I hate being told I can't attack anyone I like, so I'm entitled to whine endlessly about it to try and get my own way because I'm a special snowflake and what I want counts for more than the preferences of the 11 million guys who already play."
Likewise, I doubt you'd enjoy the intense, no-holds-barred, merciless PvP style of EVE, where the only "crimes" are to be weak or gullible or unlucky. So long as you dont come in to the game and start agitating to change the style the current players enjoy, I'm perfectly happy to respect your preference.
I agree with you on the whole, but I'd just like to point out that there are some players of EVE who hardly engage in PvP at all - in fact, who avoid it, and use the tools CCP have given, to avoid it.
And from CCP's point of view that is a form of PvP too.
For example, I moved house recently, loaded up my BS with all my necessaries in cargohold, all WCS in lows, shields, hardeners and a bit of ewar in the mids and ran a pipe through 0.0. Huge fun chase - even got caught in a bubble at one point. Each system, they called another few mates in, trying to point and tackle, etc., etc. I got through by the skin of my teeth. I couldn't stop shaking for about five minutes afterwards!
I hope they were frustrated
But basically I don't like to "hurt" people, I've tried, god knows I've tried, but I just don't have a killer instinct. I've been killed loads of times, but I'm gradually getting better at defending myself in PvP in EVE - to the extent that in a couple of fights recently, they've warped out after I've gotten them down to hull. But I don't have any point or anything, and I let them warp out.
So why do I bother, you might ask, if I don't have that killer instinct? Well, because EVE, for all its faults, is the best s-f game in town atm. All I'm interested in is goofing off pretending to be a space pilot, and I just tolerate the PvP, plus it adds a bit of spice and depth to my pretending to be a space pilot.
I suspect that there are more people like me playing EVE than you might imagine - consider the statistics that were put out a while ago about how most players stick in Empire. Granted, a few of those will be PvP-ers doing some missioning or mining to stock up for their next foray, but I reckon many of those are just people who, like me, play EVE because it's a good game in many other respects, and just tolerate the PvP, and take it as a background hum to give a sense of danger and excitement to their PvE.
I should imagine something similar for other FFA PvP games. If they're atmospheric like EVE or Darkfall, lots of people will play them and just tolerate the PvP. It would be idiotic to complain about the PvP if one has chosen to play a FFA PvP game, but at the same time, but one doesn't have to like PvP (in the "killer instinct" sense) to play a PvP game.
Actually, I have no problem whatsoever with players like you in EVE. In fact I'd go so far as to say that we're more alike than you think. What matters is that we're both playing by the same rules. I'm playing within the rules of the game to try and catch you and steal your stuff (because I'm a pirate) and you're trying to evade me within those same rules. We're both playing the same game, just from opposite sides of the fence, so to speak.
I dont mind that you dont particularly want to be a pirate too. In fact I very much respect that you've made the effort to use the many ways that EVE provides to avoid losing one's ship, rather than bawwing for CCP to do it for you because you couldn't be bothered to learn how for yourself. I wish more EVE players were like you.
Bear in mind that I too sometimes need to move valuables around, and my haulers are no better armed than anyone else's. I completely share your enjoyment of outwitting people who try and gank me. I absolutely agree that this is also form of PvP, and one of the most fun kinds. Blockade Runners ftw!
Anyone who gets pleasure from intentionally and maliciously ruining others play experience and/ or incite emotional states in others (rage) as a means of controlling them is not a healthy person. It actually shows deep low self esteem issues on their part and has a lot in common with the bully mentallity.
Players that need to do this may be convinced they are 'nice guys', but they arnt, not really. Self delusion will carry a person a long way though. More folks need to look deeper into themselves and examine WHY making others unhappy/ angry gives them so much pleasure.
I have said it before, but the games that we choose to play, and how we choose to play them, defines us as a society and as individuals. How people act in world without consequence (the internet for the most part) is imo a lot closer to their true self then the day to day exterior the probably show to the world.
Getting ganked should not "Ruin your experience" because when you joined Gankfreeland you should have done so by knowing, accepting and embracing EVERYTHING it had to offer, especially it´s most extreme features.
Geez, most games even tell you nowadays, when you select a pvp server or even in the game rule set FAQ " Warning : This server is pvp based and incidents such as ganking and corpse camping may occur to you"
If you feel that said features are "disrupting your gameplay and enjoyment" you have only yourself to blame.
And thus, if said activities should not "ruin your experience" being so that you signed up for them, willing or not, then said pk´ers are just as nice as everyone else, they simply play by the established rules.
Now, i am not a fool, i know there IS people who pvp´s only to see if he can make people upset, but come on, none of you carebears can look at me straight in the eyes and tell me you truly believe its the majority of PVP players.
And no, not even the majority of Gankers.
You have taken 3 words from what I said and focused your reply solely on the point you want to make, obviously ignoring the wider post. You also use quotation marks in your reply, when they arnt even anything I said. Poor debate tactics.
I think you should maybe read my second paragraph again and see what you can take from it.
As for signing up to them, I don't, not anymore. I have got sick of the asshat PvP culture that dominates those games in general.
and yes. I am looking you right in the eye and telling you all this.
Under your assumption, people who enjoy playing FPS games, deep inside would actually enjoy to go around their neighborhood shooting people in the face and planting bombs in their local church or at least do enjoy the prospect of making others suffer and rage.
Please....
People does not pvp to "make others miserable", people pvp to have fun and because they find the confrontation exciting.
Under your assumption, people who enjoy playing FPS games, deep inside would actually enjoy to go around their neighborhood shooting people in the face and planting bombs in their local church or at least do enjoy the prospect of making others suffer and rage.
Please....
People does not pvp to "make others miserable", people pvp to have fun and because they find the confrontation exciting.
There is no inner malice behind it.
Indeed. I don't do hardball because I have an inner desire for killing my friends, I do it because it's fun. Neither do I roleplay in the forest because I want to literally kill them with my ultra mega awesome freezing spells.
But there *is* sometimes inner malice and unhealthiness behind it. There's also sometimes inner malice and unhealthiness behind non-PvP activity in games.
The point would be that you cannot tell from PvP participation alone, although you may get clues from style.
Casilda Tametomo, Priestess of Soldeus | AKA Lepida Aegis-Imperium.com
«Si oblitus fuero usque ad finem omnia opera eorum»
Under your assumption, people who enjoy playing FPS games, deep inside would actually enjoy to go around their neighborhood shooting people in the face and planting bombs in their local church or at least do enjoy the prospect of making others suffer and rage.
Please....
People does not pvp to "make others miserable", people pvp to have fun and because they find the confrontation exciting.
There is no inner malice behind it.
Your still missing the point of what I have written and seeing what you want me to be saying.
A reread of my original quote might be in order in the interests of comprehension and to get us both on the same page in the discussion.
Even if I was saying what you seem to want me to be, it would in no way suggest people that like to gank "enjoy playing FPS games, deep inside would actually enjoy to go around their neighborhood shooting people in the face and planting bombs in their local church or at least do enjoy the prospect of making others suffer and rage."
That is a cheap, overly dramatic and outright false representation of what I am saying. If you cannot grasp what is written then this is probably a conversation not worth having.
Btw, your still using quotation marks around made up quotations that no one as far as I can see have said.
In case Being determines Consciousness, what sort of mentality can develop such individual?
“Education is the art of making man ethical.” (“Philosophy of Right”, Hegel).
What MMOs are teaching than?
In case Consciousness determines Being, what sort of a person/individual is a PKer?
“Be a person and respect others as persons.” (ibid)
Should MMO developers be more careful, and obligatory protect other players? Are PvP only MMORPGs with humanoid-PCs ethically justified?
I do not think that certain games could be directly related to RL criminal actions and I have nothing against controlled and artistic adult content in MMOs, but I am really puzzled with the growing numbers of rude anti-social MMO players (PKers, gankers, blockers, team-killers, etc.). I guess game developers should pay more attention to game design/content in this respect and consider what social impact their products might have.
What do you think?
Question: "Can a MMO PKer/ganker be a kind nice person in RL?"
Answer: Yes.
Put through the personal paces of my crippled fingers.
But there *is* sometimes inner malice and unhealthiness behind it. There's also sometimes inner malice and unhealthiness behind non-PvP activity in games.
The point would be that you cannot tell from PvP participation alone, although you may get clues from style.
what many people are not aware of is that its more human nature to cooperate than it is to compete. This isnt just me saying this, study have shown.
When people in a cooperative compete with others the others are de-humanized, thus competition is not a social action because the enamy at that point has been de-humanized.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
But there *is* sometimes inner malice and unhealthiness behind it. There's also sometimes inner malice and unhealthiness behind non-PvP activity in games.
The point would be that you cannot tell from PvP participation alone, although you may get clues from style.
what many people are not aware of is that its more human nature to cooperate than it is to compete. This isnt just me saying this, study have shown.
When people in a cooperative compete with others the others are de-humanized, thus competition is not a social action because the enamy at that point has been de-humanized.
Which is in relation to empathy. Which is why I would argue that players who enjoy the 'cut throat' competition of FFA PvP, particularly in being te ones doing the throat cutting, have a less developed ability to empathize with others. While they may be able to on some level in person, there is a cognitive disconnect for said people in that their perception of the game reality is one where their own acts of malice can 'do no harm'. Which explains the often repeated "It's just a game" excuse that's often thrown around in excuse of poor behavior in an online game.
But there *is* sometimes inner malice and unhealthiness behind it. There's also sometimes inner malice and unhealthiness behind non-PvP activity in games.
The point would be that you cannot tell from PvP participation alone, although you may get clues from style.
what many people are not aware of is that its more human nature to cooperate than it is to compete. This isnt just me saying this, study have shown.
When people in a cooperative compete with others the others are de-humanized, thus competition is not a social action because the enamy at that point has been de-humanized.
Which is in relation to empathy. Which is why I would argue that players who enjoy the 'cut throat' competition of FFA PvP, particularly in being te ones doing the throat cutting, have a less developed ability to empathize with others. While they may be able to on some level in person, there is a cognitive disconnect for said people in that their perception of the game reality is one where their own acts of malice can 'do no harm'. Which explains the often repeated "It's just a game" excuse that's often thrown around in excuse of poor behavior in an online game.
This thread is getting more hilarious by the minute.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
But there *is* sometimes inner malice and unhealthiness behind it. There's also sometimes inner malice and unhealthiness behind non-PvP activity in games.
The point would be that you cannot tell from PvP participation alone, although you may get clues from style.
what many people are not aware of is that its more human nature to cooperate than it is to compete. This isnt just me saying this, study have shown.
When people in a cooperative compete with others the others are de-humanized, thus competition is not a social action because the enamy at that point has been de-humanized.
Which is in relation to empathy. Which is why I would argue that players who enjoy the 'cut throat' competition of FFA PvP, particularly in being te ones doing the throat cutting, have a less developed ability to empathize with others. While they may be able to on some level in person, there is a cognitive disconnect for said people in that their perception of the game reality is one where their own acts of malice can 'do no harm'. Which explains the often repeated "It's just a game" excuse that's often thrown around in excuse of poor behavior in an online game.
This thread is getting more hilarious by the minute.
Glad I'm entertaining you.
To put it in terms you can better understand, PKers and Gankers don't give a shit about how other players feel and do whatever they feel like.
But there *is* sometimes inner malice and unhealthiness behind it. There's also sometimes inner malice and unhealthiness behind non-PvP activity in games.
The point would be that you cannot tell from PvP participation alone, although you may get clues from style.
what many people are not aware of is that its more human nature to cooperate than it is to compete. This isnt just me saying this, study have shown.
When people in a cooperative compete with others the others are de-humanized, thus competition is not a social action because the enamy at that point has been de-humanized.
Which is in relation to empathy. Which is why I would argue that players who enjoy the 'cut throat' competition of FFA PvP, particularly in being te ones doing the throat cutting, have a less developed ability to empathize with others. While they may be able to on some level in person, there is a cognitive disconnect for said people in that their perception of the game reality is one where their own acts of malice can 'do no harm'. Which explains the often repeated "It's just a game" excuse that's often thrown around in excuse of poor behavior in an online game.
One would have had to have had a pretty low level of empathy with one's own group, in Shadowbane, not to have done a great amount of pking of intruders into one's own territory-- if you were a small group as we and many others were. Keeping up the perception that one's own little group was not the easiest and most profitable of targets enabled some of that group the luxury of having cities to live out of, shops to craft with, and time to spend playing something other than "victim". But even a defensive rôle is not taken on by everyone without occasional twinges of conscience.
This discussion now seems to be going round and round on the axle of the question of whether wanting to win-by-simulated-killing itself is evil. This predates videogames, of course: "checkmate" is a corruption of saying "shah mat", 'the King is dead'.
Casilda Tametomo, Priestess of Soldeus | AKA Lepida Aegis-Imperium.com
«Si oblitus fuero usque ad finem omnia opera eorum»
Which is in relation to empathy. Which is why I would argue that players who enjoy the 'cut throat' competition of FFA PvP, particularly in being te ones doing the throat cutting, have a less developed ability to empathize with others. While they may be able to on some level in person, there is a cognitive disconnect for said people in that their perception of the game reality is one where their own acts of malice can 'do no harm'. Which explains the often repeated "It's just a game" excuse that's often thrown around in excuse of poor behavior in an online game.
Dude, seriously, you are embarrassing me, and I'm a class A carebear.
These are ROLEPLAYING GAMES. Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing Games. MMORP f*****g G.
The only type of player against whom you have a point is the griefer, the person who (metaphorically speaking) follows a player around making their life miserable. But in every FFA PvP game I know, griefing is "illegal"; even in EVE griefing is a reportable offence.
For all other PvP, even dogpile ganking, it really is just a game, and if you're playing an FFA PvP game, you should appreciate the fact that it's precisely the danger of losing your hard-earned stuff that makes the game have more bite, more excitement, than if you were just playing against AI that's fairly easy to beat all the time.
It's the danger that makes the game deeper and more immersive - so long as it doesn't shade into griefing as I've defined it above (and which I think most hardcore PvP-ers would agree with me on).
IOW, yes there's a grey area and not everyone will agree, but it's pretty clear that on one side we have a small chunk of in-game activity that's nakedly targeted against the player sitting at his computer, and on the other hand we have huge chunk of in-game activity that's targeted against the player but THROUGH the avatar, in a ROLE of some sort (eebil piwate, faction enemy, murderer, thief, madman, etc.).
The former is always illegitimate and may indeed reflect some psychological or moral problem, the latter is legitimate gameplay, and you have to accept that it's loads of fun for many people, and does NOT reflect any psychological or moral problem.
Which is in relation to empathy. Which is why I would argue that players who enjoy the 'cut throat' competition of FFA PvP, particularly in being te ones doing the throat cutting, have a less developed ability to empathize with others. While they may be able to on some level in person, there is a cognitive disconnect for said people in that their perception of the game reality is one where their own acts of malice can 'do no harm'. Which explains the often repeated "It's just a game" excuse that's often thrown around in excuse of poor behavior in an online game.
Dude, seriously, you are embarrassing me, and I'm a class A carebear.
These are ROLEPLAYING GAMES. Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing Games. MMORP f*****g G.
The only type of player against whom you have a point is the griefer, the person who (metaphorically speaking) follows a player around making their life miserable. But in every FFA PvP game I know, griefing is "illegal"; even in EVE griefing is a reportable offence.
For all other PvP, even dogpile ganking, it really is just a game, and if you're playing an FFA PvP game, you should appreciate the fact that it's precisely the danger of losing your hard-earned stuff that makes the game have more bite, more excitement, than if you were just playing against AI that's fairly easy to beat all the time.
It's the danger that makes the game deeper and more immersive - so long as it doesn't shade into griefing as I've defined it above (and which I think most hardcore PvP-ers would agree with me on).
IOW, yes there's a grey area and not everyone will agree, but it's pretty clear that on one side we have a small chunk of in-game activity that's nakedly targeted against the player sitting at his computer, and on the other hand we have huge chunk of in-game activity that's targeted against the player but THROUGH the avatar, in a ROLE of some sort (eebil piwate, faction enemy, murderer, thief, madman, etc.).
The former is always illegitimate and may indeed reflect some psychological or moral problem, the latter is legitimate gameplay, and you have to accept that it's loads of fun for many people, and does NOT reflect any psychological or moral problem.
FFA PvP and griefing go hand in hand, because it always boils down to KOSing everyone and dry looting them. Whether intentional or not, FFA PVP games always spiral down to this. Players can't trust each other because of the few players who abuse the system to the point where being trustful of anyone is a good way to get yourself stabbed in the back.
I just think it's hilarious that so many people take a well written out post as being utterly serious and yet nieve at the same time. All I was really saying is that PKers and gankers really don't care about what effect they have on other players. They only care about themselves and how to themselves ahead and they don't care about who they screw over to do it. It's an emphasis on extremely competitive gameplay over cooperative gameplay.
Some players like playing games where they can screw other players over. Whether they try to legitimize it by claiming RP or that it;s the spirit of the game is irrelevant, that's just when they like to do in their spare time. I'm not going to bother trying to debate the reasons why or the morality of it anymore, that's just a waste of time. Whatever beliefs I have of said people is my own thoughts. If I think some of them have some personal issues behind why they enjoy being e-thugs in online games, who cares?
So to the original question of can PKers and gankers be nice people? I think they can be, but I also think it's far more likely that they're a bit of a jerk in real life.
I just think it's hilarious that so many people take a well written out post as being utterly serious and yet nieve at the same time. All I was really saying is that PKers and gankers really don't care about what effect they have on other players. They only care about themselves and how to themselves ahead and they don't care about who they screw over to do it. It's an emphasis on extremely competitive gameplay over cooperative gameplay.
If your enemy is hauling weapons to his team, do you kill and loot that character to stop him?
If not., could you explain why not?
If so, would you take his cargo of weapons and give them to your team?
Now, would your answer change if that player was an easy kill for you?
These are reasonable questions about legitimate gameplay in games with territory or resource control.
So far you have called us sociopathic, mentally underdeveloped and various other derogatory terms for our decisions, so I'd like to know what YOU would do in that situation and why you would take that course of action. This is not an unreasonable request and it would help us better understand why you cast such aspersions on people for playing certain games as they are intended.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Which is in relation to empathy. Which is why I would argue that players who enjoy the 'cut throat' competition of FFA PvP, particularly in being te ones doing the throat cutting, have a less developed ability to empathize with others. While they may be able to on some level in person, there is a cognitive disconnect for said people in that their perception of the game reality is one where their own acts of malice can 'do no harm'. Which explains the often repeated "It's just a game" excuse that's often thrown around in excuse of poor behavior in an online game.
Dude, seriously, you are embarrassing me, and I'm a class A carebear.
These are ROLEPLAYING GAMES. Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing Games. MMORP f*****g G.
The only type of player against whom you have a point is the griefer, the person who (metaphorically speaking) follows a player around making their life miserable. But in every FFA PvP game I know, griefing is "illegal"; even in EVE griefing is a reportable offence.
For all other PvP, even dogpile ganking, it really is just a game, and if you're playing an FFA PvP game, you should appreciate the fact that it's precisely the danger of losing your hard-earned stuff that makes the game have more bite, more excitement, than if you were just playing against AI that's fairly easy to beat all the time.
It's the danger that makes the game deeper and more immersive - so long as it doesn't shade into griefing as I've defined it above (and which I think most hardcore PvP-ers would agree with me on).
IOW, yes there's a grey area and not everyone will agree, but it's pretty clear that on one side we have a small chunk of in-game activity that's nakedly targeted against the player sitting at his computer, and on the other hand we have huge chunk of in-game activity that's targeted against the player but THROUGH the avatar, in a ROLE of some sort (eebil piwate, faction enemy, murderer, thief, madman, etc.).
The former is always illegitimate and may indeed reflect some psychological or moral problem, the latter is legitimate gameplay, and you have to accept that it's loads of fun for many people, and does NOT reflect any psychological or moral problem.
Well said for a Carebear
I fall into the category too though. I don't partake in much of the PvP action in a FFA PvP style game, but I'd much rather play one of those than a "carebear" game. There's no satisfaction in being able to craft to my heart's content or beating up helpless animals all day long. I want some risk to go into my reward and make it taste that much sweeter in the end.
Comments
Torik, that's pretty much the whole thing in a nutshell - the spirit of the game. UO had that in its Codeof Conduct for years and then it seemed to disappear when OSI disappeared. I had always hoped others would others would adopt a 'spirit of the game' rule but very few did.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I agree with you on the whole, but I'd just like to point out that there are some players of EVE who hardly engage in PvP at all - in fact, who avoid it, and use the tools CCP have given, to avoid it.
And from CCP's point of view that is a form of PvP too.
For example, I moved house recently, loaded up my BS with all my necessaries in cargohold, all WCS in lows, shields, hardeners and a bit of ewar in the mids and ran a pipe through 0.0. Huge fun chase - even got caught in a bubble at one point. Each system, they called another few mates in, trying to point and tackle, etc., etc. I got through by the skin of my teeth. I couldn't stop shaking for about five minutes afterwards!
I hope they were frustrated
But basically I don't like to "hurt" people, I've tried, god knows I've tried, but I just don't have a killer instinct. I've been killed loads of times, but I'm gradually getting better at defending myself in PvP in EVE - to the extent that in a couple of fights recently, they've warped out after I've gotten them down to hull. But I don't have any point or anything, and I let them warp out.
So why do I bother, you might ask, if I don't have that killer instinct? Well, because EVE, for all its faults, is the best s-f game in town atm. All I'm interested in is goofing off pretending to be a space pilot, and I just tolerate the PvP, plus it adds a bit of spice and depth to my pretending to be a space pilot.
I suspect that there are more people like me playing EVE than you might imagine - consider the statistics that were put out a while ago about how most players stick in Empire. Granted, a few of those will be PvP-ers doing some missioning or mining to stock up for their next foray, but I reckon many of those are just people who, like me, play EVE because it's a good game in many other respects, and just tolerate the PvP, and take it as a background hum to give a sense of danger and excitement to their PvE.
I should imagine something similar for other FFA PvP games. If they're atmospheric like EVE or Darkfall, lots of people will play them and just tolerate the PvP. It would be idiotic to complain about the PvP if one has chosen to play a FFA PvP game, but at the same time, but one doesn't have to like PvP (in the "killer instinct" sense) to play a PvP game.
So basically, you joined PVP/PK game fully knowing it was based on something you dislike, and then not only you whine but call "social rejects" to those players who enjoy the game and all of it´s features and play by the officially established rules, because they don´t match your made-up-out-of-convenience "social" rules that you wield only to do whatever you wish the way you think it´s right?
Riiiiiiight.
People like you are the blight of PVP oriented games.
"Being killed for no reason"?
In a pvp game your existance is reason enough to murder you, not to count usually murdering people in pvp games awards some kind of points or currency to buy pvp gear, so yeah , there is plenty of motives to kill you.
And again, it´s a pvp game, your existance in the rival faction / wrong place is reason enough.
PVP games are made for people who enjoy any kind of brutal PVP, if you do not agree, choose the pvE server / A pvE mmorpg.
P.S: I am not even a PVP´er myself and i play on a PVE realm on WoW, but i say : Leave the PVP scenarios to those who want to make full use of them , and stop whining.
Rawr.
Anyone who gets pleasure from intentionally and maliciously ruining others play experience and/ or incite emotional states in others (rage) as a means of controlling them is not a healthy person. It actually shows deep low self esteem issues on their part and has a lot in common with the bully mentallity.
Players that need to do this may be convinced they are 'nice guys', but they arnt, not really. Self delusion will carry a person a long way though. More folks need to look deeper into themselves and examine WHY making others unhappy/ angry gives them so much pleasure.
I have said it before, but the games that we choose to play, and how we choose to play them, defines us as a society and as individuals. How people act in world without consequence (the internet for the most part) is imo a lot closer to their true self then the day to day exterior the probably show to the world.
You can translate m0llys post as "I tried a pvp game but I sucked at it because I was incapable or unwilling to learn the game mechanics and got owned so I rage quit"
I think at least 50% of the time sucking at games causes anti pvp whines I really do, players don't act like bots and are quicker to punish mistakes and most MMO gamers are not used to actually playing a game because they are used to activating powers or attacks and watching their char do everything and it gives pvpers an edge because they are willing to learn the mechanics and will try to practice and hone their control of their character to be more successful in pvp.
Carbears don't so they get owned and then get mad and cry "griefer!!!"
Currently playing:
EVE online (Ruining low sec one hotdrop at a time)
Gravity Rush,
Dishonoured: The Knife of Dunwall.
(Waiting for) Metro: Last Light,
Company of Heroes II.
Getting ganked should not "Ruin your experience" because when you joined Gankfreeland you should have done so by knowing, accepting and embracing EVERYTHING it had to offer, especially it´s most extreme features.
Geez, most games even tell you nowadays, when you select a pvp server or even in the game rule set FAQ " Warning : This server is pvp based and incidents such as ganking and corpse camping may occur to you"
If you feel that said features are "disrupting your gameplay and enjoyment" you have only yourself to blame.
And thus, if said activities should not "ruin your experience" being so that you signed up for them, willing or not, then said pk´ers are just as nice as everyone else, they simply play by the established rules.
Now, i am not a fool, i know there IS people who pvp´s only to see if he can make people upset, but come on, none of you carebears can look at me straight in the eyes and tell me you truly believe its the majority of PVP players.
And no, not even the majority of Gankers.
Rawr.
There is a little asshat in all of us. In some it is a larger one. which does not necessarily mean that pkers have a larger one inside, i guess.
In RL social control is strict and has dire consequences, so, logically, more ppl behave there and are nice. they have to.
In the internet there is almost no social control, same for games. Any consequences are virtual and temporary at best, none are forever. noone informs your peers to feel ashamed about you, e.g. your family, noone fires you, breaks your arm, sues you or shoots you. at worst you lose your account and must start anew or go to another game.
Some people like to let loose their bully inside since their are no big consequences. others dont, others don't even have the desire to do so.
the question is: would they pk ppl if they knew, that the other side would not care at all? i am sure they wouldn't bother.
a) some people have the idea that games are about fairness (like sports), these generally _tend_ not to pk imo.
b) others just see what works for them, to give them the edge to win. the less chance the opponent has, just the better. pks tend to be in this group.
c) some ppl just want to be left alone and not care about pvp at all. or not at all times.
group a and b dont get along well together, just as b and c, a&c should be ok.
group a is self-sufficient, c anyway, but group b needs group a and c.
group a needs challenging opponents. group b needs victims.
years ago i tried to gank ppl in shadowbane, after being ganked dozens of times. there was some thrill for the hunt, but after that i just felt sorry for the poor bastards we assassinated. they had little chance. there was no challenge. it was pointless, i did not enjoy it. others do.
the interesting question to me is, can a game be designed in a way, where all 3 groups can play and enjoy themselves _most_ of the time?
Actually, I have no problem whatsoever with players like you in EVE. In fact I'd go so far as to say that we're more alike than you think. What matters is that we're both playing by the same rules. I'm playing within the rules of the game to try and catch you and steal your stuff (because I'm a pirate) and you're trying to evade me within those same rules. We're both playing the same game, just from opposite sides of the fence, so to speak.
I dont mind that you dont particularly want to be a pirate too. In fact I very much respect that you've made the effort to use the many ways that EVE provides to avoid losing one's ship, rather than bawwing for CCP to do it for you because you couldn't be bothered to learn how for yourself. I wish more EVE players were like you.
Bear in mind that I too sometimes need to move valuables around, and my haulers are no better armed than anyone else's. I completely share your enjoyment of outwitting people who try and gank me. I absolutely agree that this is also form of PvP, and one of the most fun kinds. Blockade Runners ftw!
Give me liberty or give me lasers
You have taken 3 words from what I said and focused your reply solely on the point you want to make, obviously ignoring the wider post. You also use quotation marks in your reply, when they arnt even anything I said. Poor debate tactics.
I think you should maybe read my second paragraph again and see what you can take from it.
As for signing up to them, I don't, not anymore. I have got sick of the asshat PvP culture that dominates those games in general.
and yes. I am looking you right in the eye and telling you all this.
Under your assumption, people who enjoy playing FPS games, deep inside would actually enjoy to go around their neighborhood shooting people in the face and planting bombs in their local church or at least do enjoy the prospect of making others suffer and rage.
Please....
People does not pvp to "make others miserable", people pvp to have fun and because they find the confrontation exciting.
There is no inner malice behind it.
Rawr.
Indeed. I don't do hardball because I have an inner desire for killing my friends, I do it because it's fun. Neither do I roleplay in the forest because I want to literally kill them with my ultra mega awesome freezing spells.
Eleanor Rigby.
But there *is* sometimes inner malice and unhealthiness behind it. There's also sometimes inner malice and unhealthiness behind non-PvP activity in games.
The point would be that you cannot tell from PvP participation alone, although you may get clues from style.
«Si oblitus fuero usque ad finem omnia opera eorum»
Your still missing the point of what I have written and seeing what you want me to be saying.
A reread of my original quote might be in order in the interests of comprehension and to get us both on the same page in the discussion.
Even if I was saying what you seem to want me to be, it would in no way suggest people that like to gank "enjoy playing FPS games, deep inside would actually enjoy to go around their neighborhood shooting people in the face and planting bombs in their local church or at least do enjoy the prospect of making others suffer and rage."
That is a cheap, overly dramatic and outright false representation of what I am saying. If you cannot grasp what is written then this is probably a conversation not worth having.
Btw, your still using quotation marks around made up quotations that no one as far as I can see have said.
Question: "Can a MMO PKer/ganker be a kind nice person in RL?"
Answer: Yes.
Put through the personal paces of my crippled fingers.
what many people are not aware of is that its more human nature to cooperate than it is to compete. This isnt just me saying this, study have shown.
When people in a cooperative compete with others the others are de-humanized, thus competition is not a social action because the enamy at that point has been de-humanized.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
Which is in relation to empathy. Which is why I would argue that players who enjoy the 'cut throat' competition of FFA PvP, particularly in being te ones doing the throat cutting, have a less developed ability to empathize with others. While they may be able to on some level in person, there is a cognitive disconnect for said people in that their perception of the game reality is one where their own acts of malice can 'do no harm'. Which explains the often repeated "It's just a game" excuse that's often thrown around in excuse of poor behavior in an online game.
This thread is getting more hilarious by the minute.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
Glad I'm entertaining you.
To put it in terms you can better understand, PKers and Gankers don't give a shit about how other players feel and do whatever they feel like.
Or is that not accurate?
One would have had to have had a pretty low level of empathy with one's own group, in Shadowbane, not to have done a great amount of pking of intruders into one's own territory-- if you were a small group as we and many others were. Keeping up the perception that one's own little group was not the easiest and most profitable of targets enabled some of that group the luxury of having cities to live out of, shops to craft with, and time to spend playing something other than "victim". But even a defensive rôle is not taken on by everyone without occasional twinges of conscience.
This discussion now seems to be going round and round on the axle of the question of whether wanting to win-by-simulated-killing itself is evil. This predates videogames, of course: "checkmate" is a corruption of saying "shah mat", 'the King is dead'.
«Si oblitus fuero usque ad finem omnia opera eorum»
Dude, seriously, you are embarrassing me, and I'm a class A carebear.
These are ROLEPLAYING GAMES. Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing Games. MMORP f*****g G.
The only type of player against whom you have a point is the griefer, the person who (metaphorically speaking) follows a player around making their life miserable. But in every FFA PvP game I know, griefing is "illegal"; even in EVE griefing is a reportable offence.
For all other PvP, even dogpile ganking, it really is just a game, and if you're playing an FFA PvP game, you should appreciate the fact that it's precisely the danger of losing your hard-earned stuff that makes the game have more bite, more excitement, than if you were just playing against AI that's fairly easy to beat all the time.
It's the danger that makes the game deeper and more immersive - so long as it doesn't shade into griefing as I've defined it above (and which I think most hardcore PvP-ers would agree with me on).
IOW, yes there's a grey area and not everyone will agree, but it's pretty clear that on one side we have a small chunk of in-game activity that's nakedly targeted against the player sitting at his computer, and on the other hand we have huge chunk of in-game activity that's targeted against the player but THROUGH the avatar, in a ROLE of some sort (eebil piwate, faction enemy, murderer, thief, madman, etc.).
The former is always illegitimate and may indeed reflect some psychological or moral problem, the latter is legitimate gameplay, and you have to accept that it's loads of fun for many people, and does NOT reflect any psychological or moral problem.
FFA PvP and griefing go hand in hand, because it always boils down to KOSing everyone and dry looting them. Whether intentional or not, FFA PVP games always spiral down to this. Players can't trust each other because of the few players who abuse the system to the point where being trustful of anyone is a good way to get yourself stabbed in the back.
I just think it's hilarious that so many people take a well written out post as being utterly serious and yet nieve at the same time. All I was really saying is that PKers and gankers really don't care about what effect they have on other players. They only care about themselves and how to themselves ahead and they don't care about who they screw over to do it. It's an emphasis on extremely competitive gameplay over cooperative gameplay.
Some players like playing games where they can screw other players over. Whether they try to legitimize it by claiming RP or that it;s the spirit of the game is irrelevant, that's just when they like to do in their spare time. I'm not going to bother trying to debate the reasons why or the morality of it anymore, that's just a waste of time. Whatever beliefs I have of said people is my own thoughts. If I think some of them have some personal issues behind why they enjoy being e-thugs in online games, who cares?
So to the original question of can PKers and gankers be nice people? I think they can be, but I also think it's far more likely that they're a bit of a jerk in real life.
If your enemy is hauling weapons to his team, do you kill and loot that character to stop him?
If not., could you explain why not?
If so, would you take his cargo of weapons and give them to your team?
Now, would your answer change if that player was an easy kill for you?
These are reasonable questions about legitimate gameplay in games with territory or resource control.
So far you have called us sociopathic, mentally underdeveloped and various other derogatory terms for our decisions, so I'd like to know what YOU would do in that situation and why you would take that course of action. This is not an unreasonable request and it would help us better understand why you cast such aspersions on people for playing certain games as they are intended.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Well said for a Carebear
I fall into the category too though. I don't partake in much of the PvP action in a FFA PvP style game, but I'd much rather play one of those than a "carebear" game. There's no satisfaction in being able to craft to my heart's content or beating up helpless animals all day long. I want some risk to go into my reward and make it taste that much sweeter in the end.
Pro-Tip™ Dont rely exclusively on your covops cloak
http://www.combatlog.net/AA/?a=home&scl_id=14
Give me liberty or give me lasers