Yeah but then some friends could kill eachother, sell off good gear, and just go kill eachother to get it back. Sounds nice but I don't think it would work out very well in the end. Hopefully they have a system similiar to the karma system in L2, which I think they hinted to in an article I read.
Well, there are a lot of things that can be done to modify that. Obviously, every player wouldn't drop (replicate) every piece of equipment every death. Like mobs, there would be a drop rate. Also, you could just have a diminished drop rate for repeated killing.
I like karma systems. it allows fredom, but discourages against griefing too much. I like the idea of consequences for your actions; like in real life, you can be as big of a jerk as you want, if you are willing to pay the price. I tihnk that Lineage 2 did it poorly, though.
Well I agree with you that there were flaws with L2s model. For instance I thought it was too easy to go red and the punishment for going red was pretty high so most players didn't do it. I had an alt that I used to gank people that was perma red though because it's just fun to do sometimes.
Although, being able to gank people un-checked even without a full loot system would be far from ideal for most people. So far all we know is that if you kill people you gain "Notoriety Points" and if they are high enough npc guards will attack you among other things. What those other things are is what I'd like to know and how many people would you have to kill to get some angry guards attacking you?
Yeah but then some friends could kill eachother, sell off good gear, and just go kill eachother to get it back. Sounds nice but I don't think it would work out very well in the end. Hopefully they have a system similiar to the karma system in L2, which I think they hinted to in an article I read.
Well, there are a lot of things that can be done to modify that. Obviously, every player wouldn't drop (replicate) every piece of equipment every death. Like mobs, there would be a drop rate. Also, you could just have a diminished drop rate for repeated killing.
I like karma systems. it allows fredom, but discourages against griefing too much. I like the idea of consequences for your actions; like in real life, you can be as big of a jerk as you want, if you are willing to pay the price. I tihnk that Lineage 2 did it poorly, though.
I actually think L2 Karma system was actually spot on, it took time to get it off and you were pretty much free loot for quite a while, having been in one of the biggest alliance/clans in L2 I can tell you going red was quite a rare event outside of the actual inter clan wars, ppl did not grief eachother randomly and if someone did that they were quickly hunted down.
Not only that but most guilds would probably scream at you if you went red for no reason, cause it meant ppl had to escort you and de-karma you so you didnt randomly loose gear.
This sort of system almost creates a common law ppl know about, a red on a big warring clan means no go they went red for a reason, anyone else its likely it was a random skirmish and someone didnt fight back kill them.
As far as I can gather from an English written review of the closed Beta this game is something between Ultima Online and WoW.
I actually think this is the right formula, I do not think that a pure sandbox would attract the masses
I do not think this game will have anything to do with Lineage 2 at all.
In fact by reading the FAQs I figured that both Aion and Tera are just evolutions of Lineage 2 (I know Tera is not out yet, but you will see I won't be wrong)
Archeage firstly is not heavily focused on PvP, PvE is very important as is crafting and player interaction.
This is the first time I am excited abut an Asian MMORPG, I hope I am not wrong
Yeah but then some friends could kill eachother, sell off good gear, and just go kill eachother to get it back. Sounds nice but I don't think it would work out very well in the end. Hopefully they have a system similiar to the karma system in L2, which I think they hinted to in an article I read.
Well, there are a lot of things that can be done to modify that. Obviously, every player wouldn't drop (replicate) every piece of equipment every death. Like mobs, there would be a drop rate. Also, you could just have a diminished drop rate for repeated killing.
I like karma systems. it allows fredom, but discourages against griefing too much. I like the idea of consequences for your actions; like in real life, you can be as big of a jerk as you want, if you are willing to pay the price. I tihnk that Lineage 2 did it poorly, though.
I actually think L2 Karma system was actually spot on, it took time to get it off and you were pretty much free loot for quite a while, having been in one of the biggest alliance/clans in L2 I can tell you going red was quite a rare event outside of the actual inter clan wars, ppl did not grief eachother randomly and if someone did that they were quickly hunted down.
Not only that but most guilds would probably scream at you if you went red for no reason, cause it meant ppl had to escort you and de-karma you so you didnt randomly loose gear.
This sort of system almost creates a common law ppl know about, a red on a big warring clan means no go they went red for a reason, anyone else its likely it was a random skirmish and someone didnt fight back kill them.
I guess my pessimism for the L2 came off a little stronger than I meant. I was attempted to use it as an example of what I like, however I would have changed some things. For one, I felt that it was a little too harsh and discouraged world PvP.
By definition, sandboxes do not have an "endgame".... Just wanted to add that in there. As for my personal opinion of the term "endgame" I am far more interested in actual MMORPGs that take into account that they are in fact MMORPGs and not a single player game and thus do not include "endgame" content.
As far as I can gather from an English written review of the closed Beta this game is something between Ultima Online and WoW.
I actually think this is the right formula, I do not think that a pure sandbox would attract the masses
I do not think this game will have anything to do with Lineage 2 at all.
In fact by reading the FAQs I figured that both Aion and Tera are just evolutions of Lineage 2 (I know Tera is not out yet, but you will see I won't be wrong)
Archeage firstly is not heavily focused on PvP, PvE is very important as is crafting and player interaction.
This is the first time I am excited abut an Asian MMORPG, I hope I am not wrong
It would be nice, but we'll see I guess. Until an MMORPG embraces persistent concepts, which this one appears to, and creates a world that moves and breathes, and is circular, they will never interest me.
By definition, sandboxes do not have an "endgame".... Just wanted to add that in there. As for my personal opinion of the term "endgame" I am far more interested in actual MMORPGs that take into account that they are in fact MMORPGs and not a single player game and thus do not include "endgame" content.
By definition, sandboxes do not have an "endgame".... Just wanted to add that in there. As for my personal opinion of the term "endgame" I am far more interested in actual MMORPGs that take into account that they are in fact MMORPGs and not a single player game and thus do not include "endgame" content.
Game looks interesting.
By YOUR definition.
/shrug, yes by my definition, and I could elaborate if you wanted... by MY definition an online game is not even an MMORPG unless it is a sandbox game... /shrug that's just how I see it. Ultima Online is the grand daddy of MMORPGs, DikuMUD before that, embrace the two, build on it, expand, be innovative, and walla... Great entertaining game.
Comments calling this game "Theme Park" are just more evidence of what is obvious to most of us here. "Theme Park" has been way over used by people who have no idea what they are talking about.
One Axis you can plot an MMORPG design on is Theme Park vs. Sandbox. It's not black and white, either/or.
People used to understand this and if you called a title "completely themepark", you really meant it's so far to that end of the spectrum, it has become completely inane. Now, it's just becoming a derrogatory word that people just throw around, mostly just to parrot what they have read elsewhere.
Because of the rarity of games that fall closer to the Sandbox end of the spectrum, Games that tip to that side of the scale often get labeled Sandbox. Useful in differentiating it from the mainstream, where most games tip the other way, but probably this has led to people deciding that everything else is just "Theme Park".
It's hard to imagine any MMORPG that doesn't have elements some people now just decry as "Theme Park". There have been completely sandbox games, but typically, MMORPG players don't play them in numbers worth noting.
The Theme Park label has lost any value in discussion of MMORPGs. It's been over used, over applied and has become a litmus test for some who don't even know what standard they think they are applying.
It looks like this game is an MMORPG with heavy Sandbox Elements. Eve is a Sanbox game with some RPG elements. SWG was an MMORPG with some sand box elements. Even vanguard, which many seem to equate with Sandbox, has a lot of the RPG elements that some in this thread seem to think makes a game Theme Park.
Why do people always try to label MMOs into sandbox and themepark? Why can't there be an in-between? Is a sandbox the shining saviour of all MMOs while a themepark MMO is pure evil? And where is the OP pulling the 1 year number from? Maybe it will just be a short tutorial on the two main continents that help you get used to the mechanics and then you can go and build your ship for all we know. But of course, how dare a game offer a choice for the player! How dare it allow people to play the way they want to ! If it doesnt garner to "your" (the OP's) playstyle, then of course it isnt a sandbox!
Honestly, ArcheAge is offering a lot of mechanics that people have been wanting forever, there are a lot of choices, from living in (relative) peace and building houses, planting or crafting to fighting over a whole continent! I would say that is a very amazing variety they offer there and if they can pull if off, it will be a darn fun and good game to play. If I enjoy playing a game, why should I care what other label it?
I'd like to inject this bit of sanity into the discussion - having themepark elements does not render a sandbox ineffective. Having lots of places to explore that give entry trigger quests or more traditional quest handlers are fine. they're something RPGs have been using since day one, even tabletop games had this idea working for a long time to a certain degree with the way GMs handle NPCs. This is content for groups of people or single players to progress in weapon skills and find craftables like most all games, even sandbox games have. this should NEVER GO AWAY. People need shit to do other than harvesting ore to make another sword to go stab another player in te face. PvP should always stay the backseat even in a sandbox with robust features supporting it, for a very good reason. (generally lots of people like sandboxes. about one in every ten or so safely likes PvP. Ypou want to design features for 90% of your playerbase.)
I honestly think you mean well but you are failing to understand what PVP does for a sandbox and why it -has- to be the endgame. PVP is the main driving force in any sandbox game, it both makes and breaks things making the world go around on several levels of the gameplay, economically, socially and if it is done well it rises the gameplay to truly massive levels. Politics, drama, espionage metagame, backstabbing, maneovering all that jazz that makes a world interesting and immersive. The PVE part of the game cannot be greater than the PVP part, think about it; a sandbox game is all about playercreated content and dont confuse things because crafting, industry and buildings is only a driveforce to that and you wanna stuff the game with PVE content and claim that its a sandbox, really? Tell you what, if you want to make a good sandbox game, take a definitive stand, this is the line between PVP and PVE; this is where it is, we wont ever make PVE more important than PVP and if you DONT LIEK EET... dont play a sandbox game. Because you need to strike a balance, make PVE interesting sure, but this can be achieved through decent storytelling and good wholesome gameplay, do not make it at the expense of PVP, those PVP territories need to be there and they need to be a main driving force for the game.
On a side note, I have absolutely no idea why so many Fantasy themed MMORPGs go for the boring themepark type of gameplay, the fantasy setting fits this ideal like a glove on a foot. Honestly I think its the consumers fault, too many carebears who dont want to lose their precious shiny things. Pah!
people who play ATITD and minecraft might be inclined to disagree with you.
RIP Ribbitribbitt you are missed, kid.
Currently Playing EVE, ESO
Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and not clothed.
What is or isn't a sandbox game is left to one's own judgement. I think if you asked 10 different people what a sandbox game is you would most likely get 10 different answers.
I'm not an IT Specialist, Game Developer, or Clairvoyant in real life, but like others on here, I play one on the internet.
people who play ATITD and minecraft might be inclined to disagree with you.
To be fair, Minecraft isn't really an RPG. But, I think you're just making a point that PvP isn't necessarily a must for sandbox endgame content, which is true. There are a lot of people that don't really get into PvP, but still enjoy the sandboxy feel.
There have been several posts debating the relevance to the sandbox/themepark labels. I had a similar post earlier in the thread. That being said, I think that all games are some combination, but most tend to be lopsided. It seems like that division is becoming more distinct in games recently. I used to play Ragnaok Online, and, honestly, I'm not sure how I would classify it. There wasn't a linear set of quests, but it was also missing many elements that are usually synonymous with sandbox.
It seems almost taboo for a game to be in the middle or at least some blend anymore. Would a game like that not sell? Perhaps it's because the majority lays at each end of the spectrum, rather than the middle. Eventually, the division of games will become so great that the majority will fall in the middle (kind of like politics), then we might start seeing more games that aren't so one-sided. Thoughts?
It's a Korean game which generally means grindfest. So whether it's a sandbox or not you're probably going ot have to kill millions of creatures or craft millions of wooden handles.
"I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"
It's a Korean game which generally means grindfest. So whether it's a sandbox or not you're probably going ot have to kill millions of creatures or craft millions of wooden handles.
This type of "grind" is in every MMORPG. What matters is how it is delivered or "hidden". If it's fun to kill millions of creatures or craft millions of wooden handles, people won't gripe. It's when it's NOT fun that people gripe.
Also, even though Korean games tend to follow a heavy grind mechanic, never say never, things can and WILL change, matter of fact they are bound too, now that they keep trying to capture western audiences, evident in Aion and Tera even though they aren't changing the right things, the motive to do so is there and eventually, someone will. Be positive not negative, I know that's difficult for some, but do it anyway.
Just saying every Korean MMO I ever played was about the mind numbing grind. Not fun in any way.
I'm sure you're 99% right since I have not played a lot of the F2P Korean games out there. The few I have were indeed mind-numbing. I think the intended audience is what's important to look at when judging a Korean game in development. AA is not being made solely for the eastern market but a global one since it started being developed. XLGames is heavily funded and headed by someone who's seen the industry evolve and knows what will happen to a heavy grind game in the west.
If it ends up being a grind then millions were unwisely spent by intelligent people because of something obvious.
There are plenty of developer Q&As on AAportal and Archeagesource. Read through them, they're either lying or AA should be a great game.
It's a Korean game which generally means grindfest. So whether it's a sandbox or not you're probably going ot have to kill millions of creatures or craft millions of wooden handles.
This type of "grind" is in every MMORPG. What matters is how it is delivered or "hidden". If it's fun to kill millions of creatures or craft millions of wooden handles, people won't gripe. It's when it's NOT fun that people gripe.
Also, even though Korean games tend to follow a heavy grind mechanic, never say never, things can and WILL change, matter of fact they are bound too, now that they keep trying to capture western audiences, evident in Aion and Tera even though they aren't changing the right things, the motive to do so is there and eventually, someone will. Be positive not negative, I know that's difficult for some, but do it anyway.
I completely agree, and I've tried making this point on other threads. I really don't get how people don't see quests, raiding or BGs as repetitious. They're just as much of a grind as killing stuff. It's fine if people prefer those methods, but at least recognize it for what it is. Personally, I would rather be killing monsters that doing an endless stream of quests.
Comments
Well, there are a lot of things that can be done to modify that. Obviously, every player wouldn't drop (replicate) every piece of equipment every death. Like mobs, there would be a drop rate. Also, you could just have a diminished drop rate for repeated killing.
I like karma systems. it allows fredom, but discourages against griefing too much. I like the idea of consequences for your actions; like in real life, you can be as big of a jerk as you want, if you are willing to pay the price. I tihnk that Lineage 2 did it poorly, though.
Well I agree with you that there were flaws with L2s model. For instance I thought it was too easy to go red and the punishment for going red was pretty high so most players didn't do it. I had an alt that I used to gank people that was perma red though because it's just fun to do sometimes.
Although, being able to gank people un-checked even without a full loot system would be far from ideal for most people. So far all we know is that if you kill people you gain "Notoriety Points" and if they are high enough npc guards will attack you among other things. What those other things are is what I'd like to know and how many people would you have to kill to get some angry guards attacking you?
I actually think L2 Karma system was actually spot on, it took time to get it off and you were pretty much free loot for quite a while, having been in one of the biggest alliance/clans in L2 I can tell you going red was quite a rare event outside of the actual inter clan wars, ppl did not grief eachother randomly and if someone did that they were quickly hunted down.
Not only that but most guilds would probably scream at you if you went red for no reason, cause it meant ppl had to escort you and de-karma you so you didnt randomly loose gear.
This sort of system almost creates a common law ppl know about, a red on a big warring clan means no go they went red for a reason, anyone else its likely it was a random skirmish and someone didnt fight back kill them.
As far as I can gather from an English written review of the closed Beta this game is something between Ultima Online and WoW.
I actually think this is the right formula, I do not think that a pure sandbox would attract the masses
I do not think this game will have anything to do with Lineage 2 at all.
In fact by reading the FAQs I figured that both Aion and Tera are just evolutions of Lineage 2 (I know Tera is not out yet, but you will see I won't be wrong)
Archeage firstly is not heavily focused on PvP, PvE is very important as is crafting and player interaction.
This is the first time I am excited abut an Asian MMORPG, I hope I am not wrong
I guess my pessimism for the L2 came off a little stronger than I meant. I was attempted to use it as an example of what I like, however I would have changed some things. For one, I felt that it was a little too harsh and discouraged world PvP.
By definition, sandboxes do not have an "endgame".... Just wanted to add that in there. As for my personal opinion of the term "endgame" I am far more interested in actual MMORPGs that take into account that they are in fact MMORPGs and not a single player game and thus do not include "endgame" content.
Game looks interesting.
It would be nice, but we'll see I guess. Until an MMORPG embraces persistent concepts, which this one appears to, and creates a world that moves and breathes, and is circular, they will never interest me.
By YOUR definition.
/shrug, yes by my definition, and I could elaborate if you wanted... by MY definition an online game is not even an MMORPG unless it is a sandbox game... /shrug that's just how I see it. Ultima Online is the grand daddy of MMORPGs, DikuMUD before that, embrace the two, build on it, expand, be innovative, and walla... Great entertaining game.
Comments calling this game "Theme Park" are just more evidence of what is obvious to most of us here. "Theme Park" has been way over used by people who have no idea what they are talking about.
One Axis you can plot an MMORPG design on is Theme Park vs. Sandbox. It's not black and white, either/or.
People used to understand this and if you called a title "completely themepark", you really meant it's so far to that end of the spectrum, it has become completely inane. Now, it's just becoming a derrogatory word that people just throw around, mostly just to parrot what they have read elsewhere.
Because of the rarity of games that fall closer to the Sandbox end of the spectrum, Games that tip to that side of the scale often get labeled Sandbox. Useful in differentiating it from the mainstream, where most games tip the other way, but probably this has led to people deciding that everything else is just "Theme Park".
It's hard to imagine any MMORPG that doesn't have elements some people now just decry as "Theme Park". There have been completely sandbox games, but typically, MMORPG players don't play them in numbers worth noting.
The Theme Park label has lost any value in discussion of MMORPGs. It's been over used, over applied and has become a litmus test for some who don't even know what standard they think they are applying.
It looks like this game is an MMORPG with heavy Sandbox Elements. Eve is a Sanbox game with some RPG elements. SWG was an MMORPG with some sand box elements. Even vanguard, which many seem to equate with Sandbox, has a lot of the RPG elements that some in this thread seem to think makes a game Theme Park.
Want to know more about GW2 and why there is so much buzz? Start here: Guild Wars 2 Mass Info for the Uninitiated
Why do people always try to label MMOs into sandbox and themepark? Why can't there be an in-between? Is a sandbox the shining saviour of all MMOs while a themepark MMO is pure evil? And where is the OP pulling the 1 year number from? Maybe it will just be a short tutorial on the two main continents that help you get used to the mechanics and then you can go and build your ship for all we know. But of course, how dare a game offer a choice for the player! How dare it allow people to play the way they want to ! If it doesnt garner to "your" (the OP's) playstyle, then of course it isnt a sandbox!
Honestly, ArcheAge is offering a lot of mechanics that people have been wanting forever, there are a lot of choices, from living in (relative) peace and building houses, planting or crafting to fighting over a whole continent! I would say that is a very amazing variety they offer there and if they can pull if off, it will be a darn fun and good game to play. If I enjoy playing a game, why should I care what other label it?
거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다
people who play ATITD and minecraft might be inclined to disagree with you.
RIP Ribbitribbitt you are missed, kid.
Currently Playing EVE, ESO
Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and not clothed.
Dwight D Eisenhower
My optimism wears heavy boots and is loud.
Henry Rollins
What is or isn't a sandbox game is left to one's own judgement. I think if you asked 10 different people what a sandbox game is you would most likely get 10 different answers.
I'm not an IT Specialist, Game Developer, or Clairvoyant in real life, but like others on here, I play one on the internet.
To be fair, Minecraft isn't really an RPG. But, I think you're just making a point that PvP isn't necessarily a must for sandbox endgame content, which is true. There are a lot of people that don't really get into PvP, but still enjoy the sandboxy feel.
There have been several posts debating the relevance to the sandbox/themepark labels. I had a similar post earlier in the thread. That being said, I think that all games are some combination, but most tend to be lopsided. It seems like that division is becoming more distinct in games recently. I used to play Ragnaok Online, and, honestly, I'm not sure how I would classify it. There wasn't a linear set of quests, but it was also missing many elements that are usually synonymous with sandbox.
It seems almost taboo for a game to be in the middle or at least some blend anymore. Would a game like that not sell? Perhaps it's because the majority lays at each end of the spectrum, rather than the middle. Eventually, the division of games will become so great that the majority will fall in the middle (kind of like politics), then we might start seeing more games that aren't so one-sided. Thoughts?
거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다
It's a Korean game which generally means grindfest. So whether it's a sandbox or not you're probably going ot have to kill millions of creatures or craft millions of wooden handles.
"I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"
This type of "grind" is in every MMORPG. What matters is how it is delivered or "hidden". If it's fun to kill millions of creatures or craft millions of wooden handles, people won't gripe. It's when it's NOT fun that people gripe.
Also, even though Korean games tend to follow a heavy grind mechanic, never say never, things can and WILL change, matter of fact they are bound too, now that they keep trying to capture western audiences, evident in Aion and Tera even though they aren't changing the right things, the motive to do so is there and eventually, someone will. Be positive not negative, I know that's difficult for some, but do it anyway.
Just saying every Korean MMO I ever played was about the mind numbing grind. Not fun in any way.
"I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"
I'm sure you're 99% right since I have not played a lot of the F2P Korean games out there. The few I have were indeed mind-numbing. I think the intended audience is what's important to look at when judging a Korean game in development. AA is not being made solely for the eastern market but a global one since it started being developed. XLGames is heavily funded and headed by someone who's seen the industry evolve and knows what will happen to a heavy grind game in the west.
If it ends up being a grind then millions were unwisely spent by intelligent people because of something obvious.
There are plenty of developer Q&As on AAportal and Archeagesource. Read through them, they're either lying or AA should be a great game.
Just not worth my time anymore.
I completely agree, and I've tried making this point on other threads. I really don't get how people don't see quests, raiding or BGs as repetitious. They're just as much of a grind as killing stuff. It's fine if people prefer those methods, but at least recognize it for what it is. Personally, I would rather be killing monsters that doing an endless stream of quests.