Yes, things like that can be added (in fact some games do have stuff like that in them). However there is a lot more to consider. The block for instance, what does it block, everything equally (so that laser blast/magic blast/gunfire,axe..all the same)? Do you need a piece of gear to block or block some types of weapons, if you dont need a piece of gear...well are we all superheroes? If you do need a piece of gear, since all weapons do the same damage wouldnt it now require everyone to carry the gear and use a 1-hand weapon since they are the same as a 2-hand and being without the gear would be 'non-equal' (all the sudden we are in a gear centric game again).
And the dodge. It sounds like a player choice (not a character skill). This means several things. The determination of being hit is done by location. This means latency becomes a much more important issue (you could fire at someone and they not really be there, or the other guy might dodge but his latency sees you fire to late so it doesnt matter if he dodged or not).
You have also added additional keyboard manipulations into the equation. Is the guy with the better hardware, software macro the better skilled now? Is the game really balanced?
What about damage? You mentioned how much damage a weapon will do, but what happens when someone gets hit? They all have the same damage absorption abilities? Can they take 1 shot, 5 shots? Does what they wear matter? Does what they wear affect their ability to perform some functions, like being quiet? Do weapons have different other affects (like range/accuracy). Can some gear increase combat abilities (telescopic lense for instance, radar map)? How much realism is in the game? The list goes on and on and they all affect balance. Some sniper may sit out there and take out a lot of players, is he a better player? is it balanced?
I dont necessarily think this makes a better game, it makes a different game where some folks will like it and some wont. Most likely the same types of complaints will still be heard.
I have not read posts after, but the OP does not really have a concept of what a good level-less system is.
Star Wars Galaxies pre-cu is a good example.
You have lots of skill groups, like "rifleman" or "brawler. and many trees that lead to more powerfull groups.
Every player started out with a max amount of points. You take those points and spend them on skills, but to level those skills you must use that skill. If you wanted to train rifles, you use a rifle. Makes MUCH more sense, and had tons more immersion.
Everyone has a max skill point amount. If when you have full points trained you wanted to "respec" you need to untrain for the points and earn the training of the new skill.
Each skill box was worth a certain amount of points and gave certain skills/stats.
You were free to mix and match skill groups, like Master Rifleman (every skill in rifleman trained) with some mele skills and some medic skills to heal yourself.
Much more freedom to make a custom toon. I miss it.
I mean to say that this is the BEST example of a levelless game and imo will rarely be trumped in its mechanics design regrding progression if you want a further explanation i'll be happy to do so on request
Yes please tell. I never got around to playing UO, so I have no clue how it's character progression works.
Quite simple reallyit is a level-less system that works purely on Stat and Skill progression Skills being not the "traditional" sense as we have come to know them from WoW and the like but more like abilities a person was capable of.
These ran the gamut from simple fighting skills such as Swordsmanship and fencing which would raise your damage capability with it's respective type of sword also Tactics which increased Block Percentage...
But alsocrafting skills for instance woodcutting.. Smithing (armor/weaponcrafting) Fletchery, even cartography with which a person with sufficient skill could create maps of dungeons or parts of the world in certain detail.
and the list truly goes on i'm talking over 100s of abilities one worthy of note as well would be Animal taming
and it also had a total skillcap of 200 points so you had to pick and choose and rly try to find out what you wanted your character to be etc.
Also skillraising wasdone by using them and in conjunction also raised your stats such as Strength Agility etc.
For instance whenyou were attempting woodcutting to gain logs to craft furniture and bows and the like you would gain strength from swinging that axe around all day, running boosted stamina and agility and so on
And it's a Progression mechanic that,even though ihaven't played the game in years I still very much love about it because your options were virtually limitless
I like that Idea for all things non combat. The problem with the combat skills though is they would create inbalances from the new player to the old ones. What I am talking about is a totally 100% fair game for all players. As far as the rest of the skills though that would be a cool way to do it for them. I changed alot of the OP so reread it tell me what you now think.
I mean to say that this is the BEST example of a levelless game and imo will rarely be trumped in its mechanics design regrding progression if you want a further explanation i'll be happy to do so on request
Yes please tell. I never got around to playing UO, so I have no clue how it's character progression works.
Quite simple reallyit is a level-less system that works purely on Stat and Skill progression Skills being not the "traditional" sense as we have come to know them from WoW and the like but more like abilities a person was capable of.
These ran the gamut from simple fighting skills such as Swordsmanship and fencing which would raise your damage capability with it's respective type of sword also Tactics which increased Block Percentage...
But alsocrafting skills for instance woodcutting.. Smithing (armor/weaponcrafting) Fletchery, even cartography with which a person with sufficient skill could create maps of dungeons or parts of the world in certain detail.
and the list truly goes on i'm talking over 100s of abilities one worthy of note as well would be Animal taming
and it also had a total skillcap of 200 points so you had to pick and choose and rly try to find out what you wanted your character to be etc.
Also skillraising wasdone by using them and in conjunction also raised your stats such as Strength Agility etc.
For instance whenyou were attempting woodcutting to gain logs to craft furniture and bows and the like you would gain strength from swinging that axe around all day, running boosted stamina and agility and so on
And it's a Progression mechanic that,even though ihaven't played the game in years I still very much love about it because your options were virtually limitless
I like that Idea for all things non combat. The problem with the combat skills though is they would create inbalances from the new player to the old ones. What I am talking about is a totally 100% fair game for all players. As far as the rest of the skills though that would be a cool way to do it for them. I changed alot of the OP so reread it tell me what you now think.
Well it's kind of normal that players who are newer to the game would be quite a bit weaker it was more of a real life approach i mean if you know martial arts and are fighting someone who doesn't chances are you'll hand him his own ass in a matter of minutes...
also to the person whoposed the question about the Block skill Blocking was mainly done with shields in that respect you also had Parry which would do the same but only if you did not have a shield in hand and for countering magic in that respect or reducing it's damage or effects there was magic resistance
So...uh yeah...i guess that WAS the bomb trigger o.O hehe oops :$
Sounds a lot like what I'm playing right now. So I guess the answer is "yes I would"
I assume you’re talking about Eve. Not everyone wants to play a spaceship.
There are a few so called level-less games out there but suffer the mask of levels (skilling up is a grind) and have certain features that are considered a bit extreme (not everyone wants FFA full loot with no consequential murder system).
There is a need for the in between that needs filled by more than one play style (medieval, modern day, science fiction and so on.) Each new game that comes out is more toward the single player with a chat room, action house bolted on and a little instance multiplayer.
The missing parts of the virtual world simulation are just not being met right now and probably will not be met in the future since it is after all a gamble that big money won’t take. These types of games are a niche that will not draw the big money so expect them to be independent developers with a vision.
Why shouldn't there be imbalances between old and new players?
If you are talking strictly PvP, ok, I can buy that, but only just marginally. But if you are talking about PvE, I fully well expect the grizzled veteran to be able to smoke the guy that just got off nooby boat. It makes sense both from an incentive for the player to invest time and energy into the game, and from a roleplaying perspective.
Level-less does not have to mean a lack of player growth, or static stats, or anything else.
Yes, things like that can be added (in fact some games do have stuff like that in them). However there is a lot more to consider. The block for instance, what does it block, everything equally (so that laser blast/magic blast/gunfire,axe..all the same)? Do you need a piece of gear to block or block some types of weapons, if you dont need a piece of gear...well are we all superheroes? If you do need a piece of gear, since all weapons do the same damage wouldnt it now require everyone to carry the gear and use a 1-hand weapon since they are the same as a 2-hand and being without the gear would be 'non-equal' (all the sudden we are in a gear centric game again).
And the dodge. It sounds like a player choice (not a character skill). This means several things. The determination of being hit is done by location. This means latency becomes a much more important issue (you could fire at someone and they not really be there, or the other guy might dodge but his latency sees you fire to late so it doesnt matter if he dodged or not).
You have also added additional keyboard manipulations into the equation. Is the guy with the better hardware, software macro the better skilled now? Is the game really balanced?
What about damage? You mentioned how much damage a weapon will do, but what happens when someone gets hit? They all have the same damage absorption abilities? Can they take 1 shot, 5 shots? Does what they wear matter? Does what they wear affect their ability to perform some functions, like being quiet? Do weapons have different other affects (like range/accuracy). Can some gear increase combat abilities (telescopic lense for instance, radar map)? How much realism is in the game? The list goes on and on and they all affect balance. Some sniper may sit out there and take out a lot of players, is he a better player? is it balanced?
I dont necessarily think this makes a better game, it makes a different game where some folks will like it and some wont. Most likely the same types of complaints will still be heard.
Blocking/dodging would be ur gear dependant. In other words to block you would need a shield to block with. To dodge you would have to have no shield. The block/dodge would be say skill 6, and would change on it's own depending on the gear you used. Also both are tied to a stamina bar. So it's not like you can just hold it down and spam the ablity all the time. Block would have equal effect no matter the weapon, spell, or skill. Both block, and dodge would have to be timed right to be effective. All weapons would do the same damage it would just be a difference in speed, and reach, or how the player wanted to fight. Ranged skills, and weapons would all travel in straight lines no matter what . As far as latency goes players would have to learn how to deal with it like that do in FPS games.
Why shouldn't there be imbalances between old and new players?
If you are talking strictly PvP, ok, I can buy that, but only just marginally. But if you are talking about PvE, I fully well expect the grizzled veteran to be able to smoke the guy that just got off nooby boat. It makes sense both from an incentive for the player to invest time and energy into the game, and from a roleplaying perspective.
Level-less does not have to mean a lack of player growth, or static stats, or anything else.
Then the game just wouldn't be for you. I did list alot of different ways for players to feel like they are progressing though. I also said the game wouldn't be for everyone. There will never be a game that makes every single person happy. It's not possible.
Their is no such game that is completely level less. SWG Pre-NGE even without standard level 1 - 100 still had professions that went up levels in a sense. TKM 4.2.3.1. etc etc.
You might not have a big flashing green, yellow, blue, purple bar in front of you. But you still level things such as skills and stats. Say if anything in games without standard leveling. Typically it feels as though their is even more grind such as Darkfail.
But in reality it's the same kind of grinding you do in other games it's just not thrown in your face every 5 minutes "Congrats! You're level 2!".
Would you call yourself leveling in zelda/ darksiders / devil may cry? You obviously raise abilities / unlock new ones like in a leveling game but the focus is not on grind but on acomplishing certain tasks (mostly find the treasure chest for new weapon) and you can easily progress without raising abilities, the progression doesnt make you always stronger but gives you more ways to crush your enemys personally i would like that kind of progression in a mmo
Well you don't really call those systems "leveling" but at their core they're still progression systems. Very few games are made without some form of progression system.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Their is no such game that is completely level less. SWG Pre-NGE even without standard level 1 - 100 still had professions that went up levels in a sense. TKM 4.2.3.1. etc etc.
You might not have a big flashing green, yellow, blue, purple bar in front of you. But you still level things such as skills and stats. Say if anything in games without standard leveling. Typically it feels as though their is even more grind such as Darkfail.
But in reality it's the same kind of grinding you do in other games it's just not thrown in your face every 5 minutes "Congrats! You're level 2!".
Would you call yourself leveling in zelda/ darksiders / devil may cry? You obviously raise abilities / unlock new ones like in a leveling game but the focus is not on grind but on acomplishing certain tasks (mostly find the treasure chest for new weapon) and you can easily progress without raising abilities, the progression doesnt make you always stronger but gives you more ways to crush your enemys personally i would like that kind of progression in a mmo
Well you don't really call those systems "leveling" but at their core they're still progression systems. Very few games are made without some form of progression system.
Starting to think I need to remake the thread, and in the op have all the added stuff from this one. That way we have a fresh take on my points.
I think if done right you could make a levelless game that would be fun and entertaining if it was based on exploring the land and finding none instanced dungeons and so forth. But to be truthful it will most likely never happen cause even the singel player games that use this type of setting didn't or haven't gone MMO style yet. Look at Red Dead huge free roaming game like GTA but if they had more of a MMO to them they would be over run with none stop pvp and if you put it into a fantasy or even sifi setting it would be the same.
To me a game that had a combat system like a action game kinda following DDO but have it to where you could have skill bars maybe or even a console style skill system. Put into a huge open world setting or universe setting like EVE or SWG but semless as in no boundrys or things to block your path then this would be something that could work. Imagine a SiFi game if you will where you have not only many planets to explore but you have ships that when you fly them you have to leave the plaent then jump or go to lightspeed what ever to get to another planet would be great. Or a fantasy game that was completely open no boundrys you could climb a cliff with rope as long as you have the right length. Explore semless dungeons that have no instances and have the game be huge a whole world you could add content such as new places citys and new dungeons. That would be great.
A game like I mention above could have levels or just have it be more like the old pic your path adventure books or like a table top game where you make the adventure. Take out lvls make it to where armor only does so much and weapons the same have rare items that only drop once a month period so you dont have 5 million players running around looking the same. Have the game be where theres some 60 different starting towns and have there be 10 races playable and classes to. So if you want to be a warrior you can where plate but you start with leather and progression would be based on what you have done or seen. Your character could just grow in fame giving you better sale prices or you could be a vile enemy of the world its up to the player. It should never be decided by what you pick to play.
Well thats all I will say on this but I think the idea its self is one that could be done.
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Youtube Content creator for The Elder Scrolls Online
Guild Wars 2 is essencially a level'less game. You progress through the game by gaining additional skills, but your character level does not really matter because you can always find someone to sidekick you up.
I would never play such a game, and I doubt any developer would ever make that game.
If there isn't any gold at the end of the rainbow, then why play? Why do a raid, if you won't get rewarded?
Why do pvp, if you won't get rewarded in some way?
Why even level up, if you won't achieve anything, but some better-looking pixels?
It just doesn't make sense. Who would waste several months, powerleveling to, say, level 200, just to be as good as a level 1?
But a levelless game? Sure, as long as there are still skills to improve, such as "sword" or "speed", and you skill up in those, by actually using a sword, or running.
I am sorry, but I just don't see your game ever working.
Because the journey is fun? The end reward for living is always death, yet here we all are. Most of us at least.
And to the OP, a levelless game would work fine if it was properly designed. Social status, war/financial success would all work as indicators as progression and even significant reward for those who play MMOs out of addiction. I would much rather earn a social position as "governor" in a player made city then level ten times in a dungeon run. Or make thousands running a cartel that monopolizes transport of a specific rare resource than grind my crafting skill to 100.
Guild Wars 2 is essencially a level'less game. You progress through the game by gaining additional skills, but your character level does not really matter because you can always find someone to sidekick you up.
Ibeg to differ...fromthe point that equipment and skills might have a level requirement
So...uh yeah...i guess that WAS the bomb trigger o.O hehe oops :$
Guild Wars 2 is essencially a level'less game. You progress through the game by gaining additional skills, but your character level does not really matter because you can always find someone to sidekick you up.
Let me start off by saying I am eagerly awaiting GW2. GW2 though is still very much going to be a leveling game. That will also have balance issues. GW1 had them even, although not as bad as alot of games out there. The game I am talking about would be alot closer to balanced. Player skill would be the deciding factor.
I can't remember but I thought Morrowind was levelless.
Morrowind had levels and skill ups. It had a lot of side quests that were unrelated to the main story and in many ways much more indepth than Oblivion.
Okay, I really can only see what you are saying is you want a mmofps, with even more limited gear/weapon choices and some appearance crafting or home crafting.
There will be balance issues based on equipment factors and circumstances as well as well formed groups, which would form around equipment effects rather than class/skills.
Not all that different from a lvl system that restricts certain lvls from playing together. If this was an open world pvp game, ganking would still occur as most of that would be surprise related or group related, lvl maybe not but the gear focus for the gank would make up for it.
All in all, I just dont see much of a difference here to warrant removal of lvls from the game and variety (btw, he means no class/character or skill levels...so UO and weapons skills are out..frankly I would like to see a classless system with skill lvls hence am watch Secret World).
This sort of reminds me of all those competative arcade games from years ago. They were fun but would never spend as much time with them as I do with an MMORPG.
Okay, I really can only see what you are saying is you want a mmofps, with even more limited gear/weapon choices and some appearance crafting or home crafting.
There will be balance issues based on equipment factors and circumstances as well as well formed groups, which would form around equipment effects rather than class/skills.
Not all that different from a lvl system that restricts certain lvls from playing together. If this was an open world pvp game, ganking would still occur as most of that would be surprise related or group related, lvl maybe not but the gear focus for the gank would make up for it.
All in all, I just dont see much of a difference here to warrent removal of lvls from the game and variety (btw, he means no class/character or skill levels...so UO and weapons skills are out..frankly I would like to see a classless system with skill lvls hence am watch Secret World).
This sort of reminds me of all those competative arcade games from years ago. They were fun but would never spend as much time with them as I do with an MMORPG.
Another that must not have read full post. I said that all gear would be the same stats. Only thing that changes is the styles of the different sets. The gear also would give a extremely minimal bonus. Gear would mostly be solely for looks for the most part. So if players wouldn't be ganking for gear, maybe for mats or to steal money, but gear is a non factor. Also why do you say it would be a mmofps with more limited gear choices. They could add as many different kinds as they could think up. It doesn't have to be limited at all. And trying to say that group factors will make it unbalanced is silly. Of coarse players in a group vs a solo play will not be fair. There is no way to possible to balance a game for one on one, and group vs one. I don't think people would mind so much getting beat by a group if they were solo. They can always remember the names and then form a bigger group and hunt them down.
Everyone keeps talking about how they are sick of games always using a level system. So say they made a game with no progression through levels. Lets say that someone made a game where through the whole game your stats you choose at start never changed. Say they even made the skills you could use all do, lets say 3 different levels of damage. Ex. skill level 1 would always do 15 damage with a cool down of 2 seconds. Skill 2 would always do 25 damage but have a cool down of 5 seconds. Skill 3 would do 50 damage but have a cool down of 15 seconds. Say you only can have 3 combat skills 1 healing and utility skill giving you 5 total. The devs give you a bunch of different ones, and types(meaning like ranged, melee, and magical) to choose from they just all follow the same rules. The skills all have different looks though when they are use. That way everyone doesn't get bored of the same actions over and over.
Gear would add very minimal bonuses, but the gear you wore allowed for different skills to be used. By different skills I mean if you have a shield then you can block, if no shield then you can dodge. Or ranged or magical skills depending on weapon type. Gear would just look different as you progressed through the game. Starting very plain and getting cooler looking towards the end, but always having the same stat bonuses. Just improved looks.
The devs even give you a progress level say for those people that need to feel like they are gaining something for all their fighting, and questing. The level would just be for looks or bragging rights though with say a 200 cap. It could also unlock new quests or crafting items. You could also have a world level, or rank based on a mix of total kills and kill to pvp death ratio. That could unlock cooler looking skills. The starter skills would be dull and boring. The ones you unlock through player progression from pve, or pvp would get cooler and cooler looking.
I said this in a later post, but the game would also have a way to block or dodge. The blocking would work like a blocking in a action fighting game. Dodge would be like GW2, but you be able to jump roll in a direction you choose. Both skills would go off a stamina bar. So saving ur blocks, or dodges for the right times would be a factor.
The game would have all the things you find in a normal sandbox game. Just with the above combat, and progression styles. Would you play a game like that?
P.S. sorry for the bad grammer and punctuation.
Yes, I would play a game that had no levels. I don't dislike level systems per se, but I'm not a fan of them so much in MMOs. I'm more of a fan of the idea of having items and equipment that supplement the role you wish to perform and then giving players lots of options with abilities and stats on the items.
I'd want it so that this game would have a player-driven economy much like Eve's. However each piece of crafted equipment would be able have abilities and stats determined by the player that is crafting it. With abilities and "crafting techniques" (how any particular item is crafted, such that it influences the stats on the item and the abilities you could imbue on the item for the player to have access to) would be found through playing. Like at the end of a dungeon or in the middle of nowhere and the game would be dynamically changing to encourage exploration and so on. Resources would also play a part in this too. This way not every player would be able to craft identical pieces of equipment. Yes some would be better than others, and I'm fine with that as long as there would be lootable pvp (though I wouldn't want the entire game world to be ffa-pvp--I'd want a system more like Eve's and less like Darkfall).
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Everyone keeps talking about how they are sick of games always using a level system. So say they made a game with no progression through levels. Lets say that someone made a game where through the whole game your stats you choose at start never changed. Say they even made the skills you could use all do, lets say 3 different levels of damage. Ex. skill level 1 would always do 15 damage with a cool down of 2 seconds. Skill 2 would always do 25 damage but have a cool down of 5 seconds. Skill 3 would do 50 damage but have a cool down of 15 seconds. Say you only can have 3 combat skills 1 healing and utility skill giving you 5 total. The devs give you a bunch of different ones, and types(meaning like ranged, melee, and magical) to choose from they just all follow the same rules. The skills all have different looks though when they are use. That way everyone doesn't get bored of the same actions over and over.
Gear would add very minimal bonuses, but the gear you wore allowed for different skills to be used. By different skills I mean if you have a shield then you can block, if no shield then you can dodge. Or ranged or magical skills depending on weapon type. Gear would just look different as you progressed through the game. Starting very plain and getting cooler looking towards the end, but always having the same stat bonuses. Just improved looks.
The devs even give you a progress level say for those people that need to feel like they are gaining something for all their fighting, and questing. The level would just be for looks or bragging rights though with say a 200 cap. It could also unlock new quests or crafting items. You could also have a world level, or rank based on a mix of total kills and kill to pvp death ratio. That could unlock cooler looking skills. The starter skills would be dull and boring. The ones you unlock through player progression from pve, or pvp would get cooler and cooler looking.
I said this in a later post, but the game would also have a way to block or dodge. The blocking would work like a blocking in a action fighting game. Dodge would be like GW2, but you be able to jump roll in a direction you choose. Both skills would go off a stamina bar. So saving ur blocks, or dodges for the right times would be a factor.
The game would have all the things you find in a normal sandbox game. Just with the above combat, and progression styles. Would you play a game like that?
P.S. sorry for the bad grammer and punctuation.
Yes, I would play a game that had no levels. I don't dislike level systems per se, but I'm not a fan of them so much in MMOs. I'm more of a fan of the idea of having items and equipment that supplement the role you wish to perform and then giving players lots of options with abilities and stats on the items.
I'd want it so that this game would have a player-driven economy much like Eve's. However each piece of crafted equipment would be able have abilities and stats determined by the player that is crafting it. With abilities and "crafting techniques" (how any particular item is craft, such that influences the stats on the item and the abilities you could imbue on the item for the player to have access too) would be found through playing. Like at the end of a dungeon or in the middle of nowhere and the game would be dynamically changing to encourage exploration and so on. Resources would also play a part in this too. This way not every player would be able to craft identical pieces of equipment. Yes some would be better than others, and I'm fine with that as long as there would be lootable pvp (though I wouldn't want the entire game world to be ffa-pvp--I'd want a system more like Eve's and less like Darkfall).
If players could add stats to the gear they crafted then the game would become more unbalanced, and instead gear dependant. I also don't mind level based games. I just always see people posting how they want change, and a totally player skill based game. So I tried to think of a way it could be done, and this is what i came up with.
I'd like to chime in and say I would definately try a level-less game.
One problem I have with levels is the seemingly invulnerability of a capped toon (even wearing nothing special) over a low level toon. Seeing a level 10 pound on a level 85 who has his back turned for 10 minutes and seeing virtually no damage is ridiculous to me.
There needs to be a closer margin of between the skills and health pools of starting characters and max level characters. I don't care who you are, me and my 20 best friends SHOULD be able to kick your butt. Otherwise it's practically god mode and ruins the immersion factor.
I read the full post. You also said that things like weapon speed made the weapon different in a different post. Hence there is a difference in weapons, only the skill damage is the same. Does the only thing a weapon do is damage or are there other affects, like stunning?
And there is utility gear that makes a huge difference. Things like smoke bombs, IR goggles, telescopic lenses, motion detectors, traps, bombs etc (or magical equivalent)... they have a huge impact on the game or do none of these things exist in your game?
Also, why have a bonus at all if it has no affect?
MMOFPS weapons dont all do the same damage and dont all have the same damage type. You have made the weapons damage/type identical, hence they are more limiting/less variation.
Gear with only appearance difference isnt different, its the same, just doesnt appear that way, but everyone knows it is. So no, there isnt a lot to add (though even appearance can be taken advantage of...dark clothes at night for instance). Its also kind of silly a guy in a loincloth and t-shirt has the same defence as a guy in plate armor. Do you think that descrepancy is going to attract players to the game?
Players rarely gank for gear, they gank for their own pleasure. Gear is just an added incentive.
As for groups vs one, you hear that complaint all the time. I dont see any reason while it will be differernt in your game. Most pvp games balance for groups not duels, the imbalance folks complain the most about though are 1vs1 and pre-mades vs pugs.
I'd like to chime in and say I would definately try a level-less game.
One problem I have with levels is the seemingly invulnerability of a capped toon (even wearing nothing special) over a low level toon. Seeing a level 10 pound on a level 85 who has his back turned for 10 minutes and seeing virtually no damage is ridiculous to me.
There needs to be a closer margin of between the skills and health pools of starting characters and max level characters. I don't care who you are, me and my 20 best friends SHOULD be able to kick your butt. Otherwise it's practically god mode and ruins the immersion factor.
Games use to be this way. DAoC when it first came out, I remember a battle when the first on the server to lvl 50 (Theurgist I think) and several of his friends came over to our RVR area (Hyb) bunch of us 30s rolled out to fight and you know what , we won. Was an epic celebration after that. Lots of fun and one perturbed lvl 50.
WoW vanilla had loads of those fights too in the early days.
Its just when everyone hit max and they started adding gear then upped the lvls to keep people playing they broke all this and those that came along latter saw a huge descrepancy between lvls. But it wasnt always so.
I agree though the devs have gone off the deep end and its time they reigned themselves back in.
BTW, one sollution to that scenario is to debuff them based on the number of attackers. That seems to occur in some of these games for pve and I dont see why they dont do that for pvp.
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Yes, things like that can be added (in fact some games do have stuff like that in them). However there is a lot more to consider. The block for instance, what does it block, everything equally (so that laser blast/magic blast/gunfire,axe..all the same)? Do you need a piece of gear to block or block some types of weapons, if you dont need a piece of gear...well are we all superheroes? If you do need a piece of gear, since all weapons do the same damage wouldnt it now require everyone to carry the gear and use a 1-hand weapon since they are the same as a 2-hand and being without the gear would be 'non-equal' (all the sudden we are in a gear centric game again).
And the dodge. It sounds like a player choice (not a character skill). This means several things. The determination of being hit is done by location. This means latency becomes a much more important issue (you could fire at someone and they not really be there, or the other guy might dodge but his latency sees you fire to late so it doesnt matter if he dodged or not).
You have also added additional keyboard manipulations into the equation. Is the guy with the better hardware, software macro the better skilled now? Is the game really balanced?
What about damage? You mentioned how much damage a weapon will do, but what happens when someone gets hit? They all have the same damage absorption abilities? Can they take 1 shot, 5 shots? Does what they wear matter? Does what they wear affect their ability to perform some functions, like being quiet? Do weapons have different other affects (like range/accuracy). Can some gear increase combat abilities (telescopic lense for instance, radar map)? How much realism is in the game? The list goes on and on and they all affect balance. Some sniper may sit out there and take out a lot of players, is he a better player? is it balanced?
I dont necessarily think this makes a better game, it makes a different game where some folks will like it and some wont. Most likely the same types of complaints will still be heard.
I have not read posts after, but the OP does not really have a concept of what a good level-less system is.
Star Wars Galaxies pre-cu is a good example.
You have lots of skill groups, like "rifleman" or "brawler. and many trees that lead to more powerfull groups.
Every player started out with a max amount of points. You take those points and spend them on skills, but to level those skills you must use that skill. If you wanted to train rifles, you use a rifle. Makes MUCH more sense, and had tons more immersion.
Everyone has a max skill point amount. If when you have full points trained you wanted to "respec" you need to untrain for the points and earn the training of the new skill.
Each skill box was worth a certain amount of points and gave certain skills/stats.
You were free to mix and match skill groups, like Master Rifleman (every skill in rifleman trained) with some mele skills and some medic skills to heal yourself.
Much more freedom to make a custom toon. I miss it.
I like that Idea for all things non combat. The problem with the combat skills though is they would create inbalances from the new player to the old ones. What I am talking about is a totally 100% fair game for all players. As far as the rest of the skills though that would be a cool way to do it for them. I changed alot of the OP so reread it tell me what you now think.
Well it's kind of normal that players who are newer to the game would be quite a bit weaker it was more of a real life approach i mean if you know martial arts and are fighting someone who doesn't chances are you'll hand him his own ass in a matter of minutes...
also to the person whoposed the question about the Block skill Blocking was mainly done with shields in that respect you also had Parry which would do the same but only if you did not have a shield in hand and for countering magic in that respect or reducing it's damage or effects there was magic resistance
So...uh yeah...i guess that WAS the bomb trigger o.O hehe oops :$
I assume you’re talking about Eve. Not everyone wants to play a spaceship.
There are a few so called level-less games out there but suffer the mask of levels (skilling up is a grind) and have certain features that are considered a bit extreme (not everyone wants FFA full loot with no consequential murder system).
There is a need for the in between that needs filled by more than one play style (medieval, modern day, science fiction and so on.) Each new game that comes out is more toward the single player with a chat room, action house bolted on and a little instance multiplayer.
The missing parts of the virtual world simulation are just not being met right now and probably will not be met in the future since it is after all a gamble that big money won’t take. These types of games are a niche that will not draw the big money so expect them to be independent developers with a vision.
If you are interested in making a MMO maybe visit my page to get a free open source engine.
Why shouldn't there be imbalances between old and new players?
If you are talking strictly PvP, ok, I can buy that, but only just marginally. But if you are talking about PvE, I fully well expect the grizzled veteran to be able to smoke the guy that just got off nooby boat. It makes sense both from an incentive for the player to invest time and energy into the game, and from a roleplaying perspective.
Level-less does not have to mean a lack of player growth, or static stats, or anything else.
Blocking/dodging would be ur gear dependant. In other words to block you would need a shield to block with. To dodge you would have to have no shield. The block/dodge would be say skill 6, and would change on it's own depending on the gear you used. Also both are tied to a stamina bar. So it's not like you can just hold it down and spam the ablity all the time. Block would have equal effect no matter the weapon, spell, or skill. Both block, and dodge would have to be timed right to be effective. All weapons would do the same damage it would just be a difference in speed, and reach, or how the player wanted to fight. Ranged skills, and weapons would all travel in straight lines no matter what . As far as latency goes players would have to learn how to deal with it like that do in FPS games.
Then the game just wouldn't be for you. I did list alot of different ways for players to feel like they are progressing though. I also said the game wouldn't be for everyone. There will never be a game that makes every single person happy. It's not possible.
Well you don't really call those systems "leveling" but at their core they're still progression systems. Very few games are made without some form of progression system.
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Starting to think I need to remake the thread, and in the op have all the added stuff from this one. That way we have a fresh take on my points.
I think if done right you could make a levelless game that would be fun and entertaining if it was based on exploring the land and finding none instanced dungeons and so forth. But to be truthful it will most likely never happen cause even the singel player games that use this type of setting didn't or haven't gone MMO style yet. Look at Red Dead huge free roaming game like GTA but if they had more of a MMO to them they would be over run with none stop pvp and if you put it into a fantasy or even sifi setting it would be the same.
To me a game that had a combat system like a action game kinda following DDO but have it to where you could have skill bars maybe or even a console style skill system. Put into a huge open world setting or universe setting like EVE or SWG but semless as in no boundrys or things to block your path then this would be something that could work. Imagine a SiFi game if you will where you have not only many planets to explore but you have ships that when you fly them you have to leave the plaent then jump or go to lightspeed what ever to get to another planet would be great. Or a fantasy game that was completely open no boundrys you could climb a cliff with rope as long as you have the right length. Explore semless dungeons that have no instances and have the game be huge a whole world you could add content such as new places citys and new dungeons. That would be great.
A game like I mention above could have levels or just have it be more like the old pic your path adventure books or like a table top game where you make the adventure. Take out lvls make it to where armor only does so much and weapons the same have rare items that only drop once a month period so you dont have 5 million players running around looking the same. Have the game be where theres some 60 different starting towns and have there be 10 races playable and classes to. So if you want to be a warrior you can where plate but you start with leather and progression would be based on what you have done or seen. Your character could just grow in fame giving you better sale prices or you could be a vile enemy of the world its up to the player. It should never be decided by what you pick to play.
Well thats all I will say on this but I think the idea its self is one that could be done.
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Guild Wars 2 is essencially a level'less game. You progress through the game by gaining additional skills, but your character level does not really matter because you can always find someone to sidekick you up.
Because the journey is fun? The end reward for living is always death, yet here we all are. Most of us at least.
And to the OP, a levelless game would work fine if it was properly designed. Social status, war/financial success would all work as indicators as progression and even significant reward for those who play MMOs out of addiction. I would much rather earn a social position as "governor" in a player made city then level ten times in a dungeon run. Or make thousands running a cartel that monopolizes transport of a specific rare resource than grind my crafting skill to 100.
Ibeg to differ...fromthe point that equipment and skills might have a level requirement
So...uh yeah...i guess that WAS the bomb trigger o.O hehe oops :$
Let me start off by saying I am eagerly awaiting GW2. GW2 though is still very much going to be a leveling game. That will also have balance issues. GW1 had them even, although not as bad as alot of games out there. The game I am talking about would be alot closer to balanced. Player skill would be the deciding factor.
I can't remember but I thought Morrowind was levelless.
Ok meant mmo not single player game.
Morrowind had levels and skill ups. It had a lot of side quests that were unrelated to the main story and in many ways much more indepth than Oblivion.
If you are interested in making a MMO maybe visit my page to get a free open source engine.
Okay, I really can only see what you are saying is you want a mmofps, with even more limited gear/weapon choices and some appearance crafting or home crafting.
There will be balance issues based on equipment factors and circumstances as well as well formed groups, which would form around equipment effects rather than class/skills.
Not all that different from a lvl system that restricts certain lvls from playing together. If this was an open world pvp game, ganking would still occur as most of that would be surprise related or group related, lvl maybe not but the gear focus for the gank would make up for it.
All in all, I just dont see much of a difference here to warrant removal of lvls from the game and variety (btw, he means no class/character or skill levels...so UO and weapons skills are out..frankly I would like to see a classless system with skill lvls hence am watch Secret World).
This sort of reminds me of all those competative arcade games from years ago. They were fun but would never spend as much time with them as I do with an MMORPG.
Another that must not have read full post. I said that all gear would be the same stats. Only thing that changes is the styles of the different sets. The gear also would give a extremely minimal bonus. Gear would mostly be solely for looks for the most part. So if players wouldn't be ganking for gear, maybe for mats or to steal money, but gear is a non factor. Also why do you say it would be a mmofps with more limited gear choices. They could add as many different kinds as they could think up. It doesn't have to be limited at all. And trying to say that group factors will make it unbalanced is silly. Of coarse players in a group vs a solo play will not be fair. There is no way to possible to balance a game for one on one, and group vs one. I don't think people would mind so much getting beat by a group if they were solo. They can always remember the names and then form a bigger group and hunt them down.
Yes, I would play a game that had no levels. I don't dislike level systems per se, but I'm not a fan of them so much in MMOs. I'm more of a fan of the idea of having items and equipment that supplement the role you wish to perform and then giving players lots of options with abilities and stats on the items.
I'd want it so that this game would have a player-driven economy much like Eve's. However each piece of crafted equipment would be able have abilities and stats determined by the player that is crafting it. With abilities and "crafting techniques" (how any particular item is crafted, such that it influences the stats on the item and the abilities you could imbue on the item for the player to have access to) would be found through playing. Like at the end of a dungeon or in the middle of nowhere and the game would be dynamically changing to encourage exploration and so on. Resources would also play a part in this too. This way not every player would be able to craft identical pieces of equipment. Yes some would be better than others, and I'm fine with that as long as there would be lootable pvp (though I wouldn't want the entire game world to be ffa-pvp--I'd want a system more like Eve's and less like Darkfall).
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If players could add stats to the gear they crafted then the game would become more unbalanced, and instead gear dependant. I also don't mind level based games. I just always see people posting how they want change, and a totally player skill based game. So I tried to think of a way it could be done, and this is what i came up with.
I'd like to chime in and say I would definately try a level-less game.
One problem I have with levels is the seemingly invulnerability of a capped toon (even wearing nothing special) over a low level toon. Seeing a level 10 pound on a level 85 who has his back turned for 10 minutes and seeing virtually no damage is ridiculous to me.
There needs to be a closer margin of between the skills and health pools of starting characters and max level characters. I don't care who you are, me and my 20 best friends SHOULD be able to kick your butt. Otherwise it's practically god mode and ruins the immersion factor.
I read the full post. You also said that things like weapon speed made the weapon different in a different post. Hence there is a difference in weapons, only the skill damage is the same. Does the only thing a weapon do is damage or are there other affects, like stunning?
And there is utility gear that makes a huge difference. Things like smoke bombs, IR goggles, telescopic lenses, motion detectors, traps, bombs etc (or magical equivalent)... they have a huge impact on the game or do none of these things exist in your game?
Also, why have a bonus at all if it has no affect?
MMOFPS weapons dont all do the same damage and dont all have the same damage type. You have made the weapons damage/type identical, hence they are more limiting/less variation.
Gear with only appearance difference isnt different, its the same, just doesnt appear that way, but everyone knows it is. So no, there isnt a lot to add (though even appearance can be taken advantage of...dark clothes at night for instance). Its also kind of silly a guy in a loincloth and t-shirt has the same defence as a guy in plate armor. Do you think that descrepancy is going to attract players to the game?
Players rarely gank for gear, they gank for their own pleasure. Gear is just an added incentive.
As for groups vs one, you hear that complaint all the time. I dont see any reason while it will be differernt in your game. Most pvp games balance for groups not duels, the imbalance folks complain the most about though are 1vs1 and pre-mades vs pugs.
Games use to be this way. DAoC when it first came out, I remember a battle when the first on the server to lvl 50 (Theurgist I think) and several of his friends came over to our RVR area (Hyb) bunch of us 30s rolled out to fight and you know what , we won. Was an epic celebration after that. Lots of fun and one perturbed lvl 50.
WoW vanilla had loads of those fights too in the early days.
Its just when everyone hit max and they started adding gear then upped the lvls to keep people playing they broke all this and those that came along latter saw a huge descrepancy between lvls. But it wasnt always so.
I agree though the devs have gone off the deep end and its time they reigned themselves back in.
BTW, one sollution to that scenario is to debuff them based on the number of attackers. That seems to occur in some of these games for pve and I dont see why they dont do that for pvp.