And about the levels vs skills discussion. There is no real difference between a level based and skill based progression. Skill based progression indeed also have ranks and levels. I agree it's more flexible, but there's also more munchkinism going on about, so I favour neither exclusively.
Lots of people are saying 'no it wouldn't work it's not like all the stuff i've played before', well all the stuff you're played before was new at one stage after some bright spark decided to hang his neck out and give something new a chance. It's been a while since that happened. However, the chance/stats based progression system in gaming is as old as 3,000 year old babylonian board games and probably for time immemorial before that. I think it inserts nicely into an innate need for progress addiction in almost everyone. So, if there was no levelling there would need to be some other carrot on a stick. Preferably one with substance. Preferably a fresh, new, organic one that tastes good and surprises you...as opposed to the overpumped day-glo orange GM monstrosity sprayed in fertiliser, greased then shoved down your throat, wrapped in a hefty monthly bill. /vegetable metaphor off
I think lots of games have demonstrated that once you run out of things to keep you motivated, then its playerbase will whittle away. The previous, quickfix solution to the problem was to release 'oooh look! 5 more levels, now grind them like a good boy and we'll give you some shinies' or 'ooh look, I'll bet you thought that Tier 3 gear was the imba uber stylee thing to mock your inferiors all grown up as you are? Well, guess what? Tier 4 will make anyone without it look like a spasmotron on wheels, now go grind it like a good boy'. I don't know anyone but the most foregiving gamer that isn't sick to his back teeth of that format and hasn't long since seen through it as the lazy, shammy excuse for 'content' that it is. Content is just that, c-o-n-t-e-n-t. It's not spoonfeeding paying cutomers repackaged versions of the same stuff they've been eating for nearly a decade.
Solution? Well, if I were a smart, well-paid games designer, I'd first read all these forums bursting at the seams with advice gold in what players DONT want. Then I'd subtract all that from the game I was planning to make and then I'd do a list of all the things they DO want, I'd whittle out the crazy, non-feasible ideas and focus on the ones that might actually deliver something new and exciting in an increasingly stale MMO market.
there is one in dev atm. tsw is basically what you have discribed.
Donot get me wrong i do want to see this happen again in games.
If I try it or not is dependent on who is doing the game. Many companies have a lot of work to do to get out of the litter box.
Indeed, TSW IS NOT what OP described in his original post.
Secret World will have progression, you will be learning new skills and new ranks of skills most probably, which is not compatible with the idea that OP had. Oh god.
Let me add that I would play it because the game would be totally balanced, and player skill would make the player.
I think this is right on the money. UO was a perfect example of how it can very easily be done.
You're a little slow, aren't you? The OP is talking about total removal of all progression not just levels. UO had progression, just like every RPG game has. So UO is not a "perfect example" of what the OP is talking about. Why don't you take your time reading the original post, if you've got some reading problems.
And you dare to send me back to WoW? I'm sending you back to school ninny to take a reading lesson again.
i think people are forgetting that not all games have levels, and that 'progression' isnt always a factor, its been done successfully in the past, the most innovative games that i've ever played, and the most fun, have not had character levels.. but it does seem like people can't get their head around that fact, and seem to think that for a game to be called a RPG .. MMO or otherwise, it must have levels, when this is clearly not the case. Level based systems are lazy mechanics, always have been, and nowhere is that more highlighted than in games where PVP is more than a token representation, Balancing issues, damage caps, the whole mule train that it brings to the table, level based problems. Which for me, is why level based systems only really work in PVE orientated games, and even then, theres the 'fudge factor' where area's become 'level zones' .. its a lazy system.
This is not a discussion of levels vs skills type of progression. OP is exclusively writing in his original post about removal of all progression. You choose the skills when you roll your character, and that's it. All progression in game is then limited to better graphical spell effects and so on. No progression that would involve mechanics.
Which would make the game be not within the xxxRPG genre, as RPG is strickly defined by character progression. Thus, I said this vision is much closer to games like Call of Duty or Counterstrike, rather than to MMORPG.
theres an old RPG, of the pencil paper and dice variety.. called Traveller.. where you pre-rolled your character along with skills etc chosen from a career path, the only game i've come across where characters could die before you got to play them there was no XP from killing things.. or at all, there was no character progression, there didnt need to be, as the RPG was based around the Traveller Universe. in some ways Eve Online reminds me of that game. But its not the only game where character progression wasnt a factor, character progression is a factor of 'most' current MMO's not all of them, and it doesnt define the MMORPG genre. And in a way, i would even say that character progression can be detrimental to RPG's, even the MMO variety, because the other downside is that players get bogged down with 'grinding levels/XP' instead of actually playing the game in question.
You are wrong Phry, Traveller indeed HAD PROGRESSION.
True is, there was no xp from kills, however you were getting xp-like points at the end of every session, which you used to improve your skills. Your example of EVE is not compatible with OP idea again, as EVE indeed also has progression. There is no mmorpg on the market without progression, because even if OP's idea was to be implement, the game wouldn't be labelled as MMORPG anyway.
In game-character progression (whether it is level or skill-based) is the ultimate feature (but not exclusive) of each and every RPG.
I think I wouldn't play it in the way you posted it, or lets better say, in the way I understood this.
It sounds to me, like every character is in his abilitys equal and only the player makes the difference.
This is basically the same way, most shooters work (eg. CoD, CS or UT)
Okay, CoD has in mulitplayer something like a progression due the ability to make his own, better weapons after reaching a certain rank.
I think, League of Legends makes a step into this area. Sure, you have to level up your hero and buy him powerful equipment but theese archivements aren't lasting. In the next round, your hero is lvl 1 again. The only thing, that levels up, is the summoner(player) and has a some skills and runes, which improve the hero all the time.
But in LoL your skill is the most important thing.
An alternative to all the killing and fighting and the everlasting violent competition would be Kemet - A tale in desert.
You have no leveling there, as I have it in my memory, only a bunch of quests, you have to pass throu, like "Build the highest Obelisk in your region!", which is in later game rather frustratiing, when you have to build up a 600m high Obelisk and need something like 8938750928520342 bricks and you have no idea where to get such a huge amount, since this is one of your first quests.
But the only characterprogression you have in this game is the thing, that you gain, after vistiting some schools and doing some quests, the ability to produce better tools which help you to get more of a certain good with less work. And the ability to produce other goods like coal and so on.
At least I think, a MMO without any progression is nothing for me. This is more a RTS or Ego-Shooter(Don't come me with Borderlands xD) thing.
Take EVE Online and give all characters all skills right off the bat. Now you've got a game without defined 'levels'. If you have the money for a ship you can fly it right then and there. Gameplay would continue as it does today, and the gating factor on getting into your next favorite ship is having the money to buy it, equip it and eoperate it. Because money is an in-game commodity, it can be purchased, gifted, stolen, ransomed or earned in a variety of ways. Because skill in using a ship is more involved than simply showing up and pressing a button, it is still necessary to develop the tactical and stratetic skills to employ ships and their systems properly.
Originally posted by fatboy21007 check out Xsyon. no levels ingame..armor dont mean squat but you have different skills that you can level....(epic easy). the game is a true sandbox as all content you create...all quests..u create. it is full ffa pvp/loot also. See ya ingame :-)
LOL if only that was true. As with Darkfall which also has "no levels", the levels are just replaced by skill levels. People still talk about leveling your skills in the same manner as levels in games like WOW.
Also there are levels in Xsyon - you gain them by doing tasks and then can spend points on skills.
Sadly in Xsyon the sandbox is badly broken and empty. There is no point to the game what so ever at present.
Take EVE Online and give all characters all skills right off the bat. Now you've got a game without defined 'levels'. If you have the money for a ship you can fly it right then and there. Gameplay would continue as it does today, and the gating factor on getting into your next favorite ship is having the money to buy it, equip it and eoperate it. Because money is an in-game commodity, it can be purchased, gifted, stolen, ransomed or earned in a variety of ways. Because skill in using a ship is more involved than simply showing up and pressing a button, it is still necessary to develop the tactical and stratetic skills to employ ships and their systems properly.
I'd like to try a fantasy version of such a game.
This. I would play that game. A MMO should be about competition, exploration, socializing. Darkfall is actually pretty close to this given there is no skill cap and everyone can pretty easily max out every skill. The only difference between people then is how they choose to equip themselves, and their real life skill at controlling their toon.
If I'm understanding your post correctly, the player will be basically just as powerful at character creation as he is after playing for quite some time?
If that's correct, then no chance I would play it. A game has to engage me by either offering me a very compelling story I want to see to the end (Hard Rain, Longest Journey, Max Payne) or let my character grow in power. It doesn't have to be levels, but my character must make meaningful progress. I do not consider titles, cooler-looking gear, or non-beneficial game fame as progress.
Sure I'd give it a go as I love skill based pvp, but I think would you simply artificially create 'levels' via another form due to the persistant nature of mmos.
If everyone has the same character skills all the time and itemization means nothing above and beyond cosmetics. Then something like ig credits and a players ability to out purchase other players in terms of consumables/whatever then becomes the games 'level' yardstick. Instead of level 10's vs level 50's you replace it with millionaires and billionaires.
To remove levels in the truest sense of the word you need to remove all progression based factors that can in anyway effect the game, which in turn ofc effects combat. Doing such makes part of the core feature of mmo's redundant.
I would also have to question just how well such a system would work outside of a player number controlled arena game. In a BG or in an fps player skill does count as it gives you the edge over an equal (or slightly larger) sized team. In an mmo which can have severe faction number disparity, at the end of the day player skill will only help you so much. After that you have to hope that the other side is less well equipped and less capable of using a wide range of skills then you are.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
Honestly, no. I'll agree in that I do not like the arbitray leveling system. BUT! I do like skill leveling systems. Simply because there IS a difference in skill between a white belt and a black belt in martial arts. There's a difference in knowledge between a high school graduate and a rocket scientist.
I even like skill systems that decline when one doesn't use it. An ex soldier that becomes an office worker would lose strength, speed, and accuracy over time if not used. Even one's bones become weaker when that person doesn't exercise. People can gain and lose patience. People can have an apiphony, then later forget it and have to repeat the same mistakes to relearn it. Though I would say game wise, make it more lenient than RL, otherwise people who quit would probably never come back.
If I'm understanding your post correctly, the player will be basically just as powerful at character creation as he is after playing for quite some time?
If that's correct, then no chance I would play it. A game has to engage me by either offering me a very compelling story I want to see to the end (Hard Rain, Longest Journey, Max Payne) or let my character grow in power. It doesn't have to be levels, but my character must make meaningful progress. I do not consider titles, cooler-looking gear, or non-beneficial game fame as progress.
How is it an RPG if there's no progress?
The P in RPG does not stand for progress. An RPG is where you play a role in a story. This could be by having an engaging story through which you adventure, or playing a unique character which does anything from lift weights all day to increase strength stat, or chops someones head off because its fun, not because they get XP.
If I'm understanding your post correctly, the player will be basically just as powerful at character creation as he is after playing for quite some time?
If that's correct, then no chance I would play it. A game has to engage me by either offering me a very compelling story I want to see to the end (Hard Rain, Longest Journey, Max Payne) or let my character grow in power. It doesn't have to be levels, but my character must make meaningful progress. I do not consider titles, cooler-looking gear, or non-beneficial game fame as progress.
How is it an RPG if there's no progress?
The P in RPG does not stand for progress. An RPG is where you play a role in a story. This could be by having an engaging story through which you adventure, or playing a unique character which does anything from lift weights all day to increase strength stat, or chops someones head off because its fun, not because they get XP.
have several types of rpg, one based on history only would be called a storyteller rpg, its possible to play a game like that, but online in a MMo? hardly.
and we have some leveless games like UO, secret world who some are waiting, raideZ looks like your only progress its gear(I can be wrong on this)
Skilled based (stats) over Level progression (lvls 1 - 100).
A multi class system to choose from (fighters, crafters, socializers and politicians)
Open seamsless world with PvE and PvP option benefits to the player.
Unique crafting materials (rare vs common elements while harvesting in the vass unique world whether in a dungeon or open world) which will set your good crafters from your superior crafters in the game when it comes to armor and weapon creations.
Territorial captures of existing and non existing locations to build upon.
Player Driven economy and personal auction locations.
Player housing and city construction.
And a Multi faction system.
The ultimate goal in the game, world territorial domination of a faction on a planetary scale and not what level dungeon to grind next so you can complete your armor and weapon set.
The game you are looking for is called PlanetSide. It has battle and command ranks that allow you to equip more stuff nothing more. A top battle rank can still be killed just as easy as the lowest battle rank.
It doesn't have to be levels, but my character must make meaningful progress. I do not consider titles, cooler-looking gear, or non-beneficial game fame as progress.
Levels cannot be removed from existing fantasy MMORPGs because that's the base motivation of those games. There are plenty of people here who seem to believe that RPG means leveling. In fact, that's not the case. I brought up EVE Online as a means of suggesting that games exist where leveling is not the focus of entertainment. Unfortunately, it seems that most people haven't gotten around to trying EVE Online.
In EVE Online, the focus of gameplay is what you're trying to get done in a context of galactic warfare. The economy supports that game of galactic warfare, which eats materiel like a teenage boy eats food. So instead of having the game tell you that you are now level N, you tell yourself that today was a good day because you are now richer than you were yesterday. Or that you picked up another two PvP kills. Or you can now manufacture something that you couldn't yesterday. Or that you filled three more orders for ships. Or that you found a great PvE complex. Many activities are spinoffs of the game of galactic warfare.
And those are just the little goals. If you directly join in on the game of galactic conquest, you may pat yourself on the back for scouting out the enemy fleet. Or for being a successful squadron commander. Or even a fleet commander. Perhaps you are the president of your corporation and just had a successful recruiting drive for members. More substantially, perhaps your alliance just broke the back of an enemy and captured several systems.
It continues like that. Instead of grinding monsters and raids to climb the ladder of levels and gear, you climg the ladder of gear and money so that you can accomplish your goals. A sufficiently broad and deep game will allow you to pick from many possible personal goals.
One thing that EVE Online also underscores is that the game is a multiplayer game. Much of the interesting stuff in EVE Online is focused on interactions wth other players. It's that game of galactic conquest again, with its many spinoff activities.
I think the fantasy game to that came closest to that experience was Ultima Online. In it, players could focus on many tasks and activities other than simply grinding up character abilities and power. Once they had their abilities and power, they tried to do something with it. That's the missing part - what to do with abilities and power. If the game has things do with abilities and power then that game can discard the accrual of abilities and power and simply let players pursue their goals.
I am currently on a trial of EVE, think it's my 3rd or 4th attempt at this game.
Spending some time playing with a friend or two so that really helps me get into it more, seeing his ships and riding along free-loading LP /standing/Isk on his missions is great (especially when I can swoop in and kill the frigates his battlecruiser/battleship has trouble hitting.)
That being said, make NO mistake that EVE is a level filled game to the extreme.
Everything requires skills to be at a certain level, often multiple primary, secondary, and terrtiary skills need to be at certain levels (1-5) to use a piece of equipment or ship.
Considering getting from level 3 to 4 or especially 4-5 in a single skill can take well over a day (24 hours) of training time, it's a slow grind.
Though the game is very free-form and you really can pursue so many different and varied paths through the game, getting to a point where you can actually survive and thrive does take some time.
Trying to get into a cap stable, well fitted cruiser and capable of soloing L2 missions by the time my trial is over. Not sure if I'm going to make it or not (trying to skill up to basic certification in passive shield tanking- very skill intensive)
That all being said, would EVE work as a level-less game? Well you'd still be limited by how much ISK you had to spend and the availability of mods/components for fitting etc.
Beyond that, all the fun galactic conquest stuff would be primarily limited by tactics and strength of numbers with all else being equal.
Yeah, I think it would work - you'd still have a social/ economic/ player-skill progression without all the long skill grind.
UO was unique in that the skill grind was SO minimal, you could "catch up" in skills enough on a new character in a matter of a couple of days/nights to play competitively.
If there isn't any gold at the end of the rainbow, then why play?
because it's fun? ever play FPS games? no real rewards at the end of the rainbow, just victory or defeat.
Why do a raid, if you won't get rewarded?
because it's fun? I rather enjoy large group content and the coordination/cooperation it takes as well as the social-building experience - if anything the "loot" causes major problems in the fun/friendships department.
Why do pvp, if you won't get rewarded in some way?
Winning is winning. Winning feels good. Taking something from an enemy is rewarding, including their pride not just pixels. Losing still stings, especially if you lose something tangible, like control of a town/city/resource etc.
Why even level up, if you won't achieve anything, but some better-looking pixels?
Achievement does not have to be defined by numbers. Getting a special looking piece of gear you can only get from completing some ridiculously challenging encounter is a point of pride - bragging rights. As a WoW player (you must be) do you not see the desire for special titles and mounts for achievements that add NOTHING to your stats?
It just doesn't make sense. Who would waste several months, powerleveling to, say, level 200, just to be as good as a level 1?
Wrong attitude. With levels fairly meaningless, why power level? Enjoy the aspects of the game you enjoy. The fun and achievement comes from being successful, not from being rewarded. Plenty of ways to distinguish a good player or great player from a not-so-good one then having better stats.
I am sorry, but I just don't see your game ever working.
It is because you lack vision. Lack perspective. It may be hard to believe, but MMOs and even RPGs started much closer to the OP's ideals then the current crop of games which are all "me, me, me!" focused. An extremely well made game, fully AAA with a smooth, bug free launch and eons worth of content would succeed using this forumula.
Why raid? Because it's a challenge, a test of skill, and because it's there. "If you build it, they will come."
Throw in achievements with tangible, cosmetic only rewards and people will line up at the door.
Why quest without the rewards and stat/level progression? For the story and the lore.
Why PvP without stat/gear progression? For the thrill of victory and a territorial control system would be key. Like in UO.
Why PvE without stat/gear progression? For the challenge and the bragging rights, and the fellowship of completing something exciting and challening with your friends. Like in UO.
EQ really started the decline of the MMORPG genre, WoW hit the overdrive button, and now we are so far gone I doubt we'll ever try to go back.
Modern "sandbox" games always get it all wrong - too much grind, too much linear statistical progression, too little choice via forced PvP etc.
Well, of course it would matter what the game WAS...but yeah, I would LOVE a game where SKILLS were earned, not "levels". You don't go to school to earn new "levels" and only in a Government job can you get away with having no skills but being at the top level.
They may take our monthly fee but they can't take away our freedom! Ok sorry had a Braveheart moment there...
Well I don't know about you guys but I'll be playing Undead Labs zombie console mmo because it will be a sanbox style of mmo with freedom! http://undeadlabs.com/
It seems that a lot of people consider leveling skills, leveling characters, or gear upgrades to be the main divide between RPG and FPS games. So pretty much there is only one way to make such a MMO viable, and that is to change the progression entirely.
Progression is the main factor that contributes to your sense of accomplishment, getting a new level, new piece of gear, higher skill level. I propose that a different kind of progression could be just as fun and engaging as a level based one.
I think a skill unlock system would be pretty unique to the MMO genre. I would say it would be similar to Mega Man, where you not only unlock new skills for defeating powerful monster, but also from completing quests, crafting, trading, or purchasing from merchants.
You would be able to slot a certain amount of skills you discovered on your adventure.
The skills dont level up, your character doesn't level up, gear is only cosmetic, however, you still have the sense of progression from unlocking new skills to swap out.
As for combat in such a game, there can definitely be progressively harder monsters to fight as well, because you can make certain monsters near unkillable without a certain skill set. For example, you build your character to use nothing but fire skills, the fire elemental will probably just grow more powerful if you throw a fireball at him. So instead, you can switch out a fire skill for an Ice skill instead so as to make your efforts productive. If however, you do not have the Ice skill yet, you better have a friend that does, or you will have to go hunting for the elusive ice attack.
This skill system would cover a broad spectrum of attacks, buffs, debuffs, elemtal powers, etc..
This game would be like if Mega Man and Guild Wars had a baby.
Comments
And about the levels vs skills discussion. There is no real difference between a level based and skill based progression. Skill based progression indeed also have ranks and levels. I agree it's more flexible, but there's also more munchkinism going on about, so I favour neither exclusively.
REALITY CHECK
there is one in dev atm. tsw is basically what you have discribed.
Donot get me wrong i do want to see this happen again in games.
If I try it or not is dependent on who is doing the game. Many companies have a lot of work to do to get out of the litter box.
Lots of people are saying 'no it wouldn't work it's not like all the stuff i've played before', well all the stuff you're played before was new at one stage after some bright spark decided to hang his neck out and give something new a chance. It's been a while since that happened. However, the chance/stats based progression system in gaming is as old as 3,000 year old babylonian board games and probably for time immemorial before that. I think it inserts nicely into an innate need for progress addiction in almost everyone. So, if there was no levelling there would need to be some other carrot on a stick. Preferably one with substance. Preferably a fresh, new, organic one that tastes good and surprises you...as opposed to the overpumped day-glo orange GM monstrosity sprayed in fertiliser, greased then shoved down your throat, wrapped in a hefty monthly bill. /vegetable metaphor off
I think lots of games have demonstrated that once you run out of things to keep you motivated, then its playerbase will whittle away. The previous, quickfix solution to the problem was to release 'oooh look! 5 more levels, now grind them like a good boy and we'll give you some shinies' or 'ooh look, I'll bet you thought that Tier 3 gear was the imba uber stylee thing to mock your inferiors all grown up as you are? Well, guess what? Tier 4 will make anyone without it look like a spasmotron on wheels, now go grind it like a good boy'. I don't know anyone but the most foregiving gamer that isn't sick to his back teeth of that format and hasn't long since seen through it as the lazy, shammy excuse for 'content' that it is. Content is just that, c-o-n-t-e-n-t. It's not spoonfeeding paying cutomers repackaged versions of the same stuff they've been eating for nearly a decade.
Solution? Well, if I were a smart, well-paid games designer, I'd first read all these forums bursting at the seams with advice gold in what players DONT want. Then I'd subtract all that from the game I was planning to make and then I'd do a list of all the things they DO want, I'd whittle out the crazy, non-feasible ideas and focus on the ones that might actually deliver something new and exciting in an increasingly stale MMO market.
Indeed, TSW IS NOT what OP described in his original post.
Secret World will have progression, you will be learning new skills and new ranks of skills most probably, which is not compatible with the idea that OP had. Oh god.
REALITY CHECK
theres an old RPG, of the pencil paper and dice variety.. called Traveller.. where you pre-rolled your character along with skills etc chosen from a career path, the only game i've come across where characters could die before you got to play them
there was no XP from killing things.. or at all, there was no character progression, there didnt need to be, as the RPG was based around the Traveller Universe. in some ways Eve Online reminds me of that game. But its not the only game where character progression wasnt a factor, character progression is a factor of 'most' current MMO's not all of them, and it doesnt define the MMORPG genre. And in a way, i would even say that character progression can be detrimental to RPG's, even the MMO variety, because the other downside is that players get bogged down with 'grinding levels/XP' instead of actually playing the game in question.
You are wrong Phry, Traveller indeed HAD PROGRESSION.
True is, there was no xp from kills, however you were getting xp-like points at the end of every session, which you used to improve your skills. Your example of EVE is not compatible with OP idea again, as EVE indeed also has progression. There is no mmorpg on the market without progression, because even if OP's idea was to be implement, the game wouldn't be labelled as MMORPG anyway.
In game-character progression (whether it is level or skill-based) is the ultimate feature (but not exclusive) of each and every RPG.
REALITY CHECK
Well a MMORPG without any progression?
I think I wouldn't play it in the way you posted it, or lets better say, in the way I understood this.
It sounds to me, like every character is in his abilitys equal and only the player makes the difference.
This is basically the same way, most shooters work (eg. CoD, CS or UT)
Okay, CoD has in mulitplayer something like a progression due the ability to make his own, better weapons after reaching a certain rank.
I think, League of Legends makes a step into this area. Sure, you have to level up your hero and buy him powerful equipment but theese archivements aren't lasting. In the next round, your hero is lvl 1 again. The only thing, that levels up, is the summoner(player) and has a some skills and runes, which improve the hero all the time.
But in LoL your skill is the most important thing.
An alternative to all the killing and fighting and the everlasting violent competition would be Kemet - A tale in desert.
You have no leveling there, as I have it in my memory, only a bunch of quests, you have to pass throu, like "Build the highest Obelisk in your region!", which is in later game rather frustratiing, when you have to build up a 600m high Obelisk and need something like 8938750928520342 bricks and you have no idea where to get such a huge amount, since this is one of your first quests.
But the only characterprogression you have in this game is the thing, that you gain, after vistiting some schools and doing some quests, the ability to produce better tools which help you to get more of a certain good with less work. And the ability to produce other goods like coal and so on.
At least I think, a MMO without any progression is nothing for me. This is more a RTS or Ego-Shooter(Don't come me with Borderlands xD) thing.
Take EVE Online and give all characters all skills right off the bat. Now you've got a game without defined 'levels'. If you have the money for a ship you can fly it right then and there. Gameplay would continue as it does today, and the gating factor on getting into your next favorite ship is having the money to buy it, equip it and eoperate it. Because money is an in-game commodity, it can be purchased, gifted, stolen, ransomed or earned in a variety of ways. Because skill in using a ship is more involved than simply showing up and pressing a button, it is still necessary to develop the tactical and stratetic skills to employ ships and their systems properly.
I'd like to try a fantasy version of such a game.
LOL if only that was true. As with Darkfall which also has "no levels", the levels are just replaced by skill levels. People still talk about leveling your skills in the same manner as levels in games like WOW.
Also there are levels in Xsyon - you gain them by doing tasks and then can spend points on skills.
Sadly in Xsyon the sandbox is badly broken and empty. There is no point to the game what so ever at present.
This. I would play that game. A MMO should be about competition, exploration, socializing. Darkfall is actually pretty close to this given there is no skill cap and everyone can pretty easily max out every skill. The only difference between people then is how they choose to equip themselves, and their real life skill at controlling their toon.
If I'm understanding your post correctly, the player will be basically just as powerful at character creation as he is after playing for quite some time?
If that's correct, then no chance I would play it. A game has to engage me by either offering me a very compelling story I want to see to the end (Hard Rain, Longest Journey, Max Payne) or let my character grow in power. It doesn't have to be levels, but my character must make meaningful progress. I do not consider titles, cooler-looking gear, or non-beneficial game fame as progress.
How is it an RPG if there's no progress?
Sure I'd give it a go as I love skill based pvp, but I think would you simply artificially create 'levels' via another form due to the persistant nature of mmos.
If everyone has the same character skills all the time and itemization means nothing above and beyond cosmetics. Then something like ig credits and a players ability to out purchase other players in terms of consumables/whatever then becomes the games 'level' yardstick. Instead of level 10's vs level 50's you replace it with millionaires and billionaires.
To remove levels in the truest sense of the word you need to remove all progression based factors that can in anyway effect the game, which in turn ofc effects combat. Doing such makes part of the core feature of mmo's redundant.
I would also have to question just how well such a system would work outside of a player number controlled arena game. In a BG or in an fps player skill does count as it gives you the edge over an equal (or slightly larger) sized team. In an mmo which can have severe faction number disparity, at the end of the day player skill will only help you so much. After that you have to hope that the other side is less well equipped and less capable of using a wide range of skills then you are.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
Answering the opening post:
Honestly, no. I'll agree in that I do not like the arbitray leveling system. BUT! I do like skill leveling systems. Simply because there IS a difference in skill between a white belt and a black belt in martial arts. There's a difference in knowledge between a high school graduate and a rocket scientist.
I even like skill systems that decline when one doesn't use it. An ex soldier that becomes an office worker would lose strength, speed, and accuracy over time if not used. Even one's bones become weaker when that person doesn't exercise. People can gain and lose patience. People can have an apiphony, then later forget it and have to repeat the same mistakes to relearn it. Though I would say game wise, make it more lenient than RL, otherwise people who quit would probably never come back.
The P in RPG does not stand for progress. An RPG is where you play a role in a story. This could be by having an engaging story through which you adventure, or playing a unique character which does anything from lift weights all day to increase strength stat, or chops someones head off because its fun, not because they get XP.
have several types of rpg, one based on history only would be called a storyteller rpg, its possible to play a game like that, but online in a MMo? hardly.
and we have some leveless games like UO, secret world who some are waiting, raideZ looks like your only progress its gear(I can be wrong on this)
Skilled based (stats) over Level progression (lvls 1 - 100).
A multi class system to choose from (fighters, crafters, socializers and politicians)
Open seamsless world with PvE and PvP option benefits to the player.
Unique crafting materials (rare vs common elements while harvesting in the vass unique world whether in a dungeon or open world) which will set your good crafters from your superior crafters in the game when it comes to armor and weapon creations.
Territorial captures of existing and non existing locations to build upon.
Player Driven economy and personal auction locations.
Player housing and city construction.
And a Multi faction system.
The ultimate goal in the game, world territorial domination of a faction on a planetary scale and not what level dungeon to grind next so you can complete your armor and weapon set.
Has my vote on a mmorpg.
The game you are looking for is called PlanetSide. It has battle and command ranks that allow you to equip more stuff nothing more. A top battle rank can still be killed just as easy as the lowest battle rank.
Planetside Next is coming out soon (TM)
I missed the 1st Planetside game, hopefully I don't miss this one.
But thanks for the heads up
Levels cannot be removed from existing fantasy MMORPGs because that's the base motivation of those games. There are plenty of people here who seem to believe that RPG means leveling. In fact, that's not the case. I brought up EVE Online as a means of suggesting that games exist where leveling is not the focus of entertainment. Unfortunately, it seems that most people haven't gotten around to trying EVE Online.
In EVE Online, the focus of gameplay is what you're trying to get done in a context of galactic warfare. The economy supports that game of galactic warfare, which eats materiel like a teenage boy eats food. So instead of having the game tell you that you are now level N, you tell yourself that today was a good day because you are now richer than you were yesterday. Or that you picked up another two PvP kills. Or you can now manufacture something that you couldn't yesterday. Or that you filled three more orders for ships. Or that you found a great PvE complex. Many activities are spinoffs of the game of galactic warfare.
And those are just the little goals. If you directly join in on the game of galactic conquest, you may pat yourself on the back for scouting out the enemy fleet. Or for being a successful squadron commander. Or even a fleet commander. Perhaps you are the president of your corporation and just had a successful recruiting drive for members. More substantially, perhaps your alliance just broke the back of an enemy and captured several systems.
It continues like that. Instead of grinding monsters and raids to climb the ladder of levels and gear, you climg the ladder of gear and money so that you can accomplish your goals. A sufficiently broad and deep game will allow you to pick from many possible personal goals.
One thing that EVE Online also underscores is that the game is a multiplayer game. Much of the interesting stuff in EVE Online is focused on interactions wth other players. It's that game of galactic conquest again, with its many spinoff activities.
I think the fantasy game to that came closest to that experience was Ultima Online. In it, players could focus on many tasks and activities other than simply grinding up character abilities and power. Once they had their abilities and power, they tried to do something with it. That's the missing part - what to do with abilities and power. If the game has things do with abilities and power then that game can discard the accrual of abilities and power and simply let players pursue their goals.
I am currently on a trial of EVE, think it's my 3rd or 4th attempt at this game.
Spending some time playing with a friend or two so that really helps me get into it more, seeing his ships and riding along free-loading LP /standing/Isk on his missions is great (especially when I can swoop in and kill the frigates his battlecruiser/battleship has trouble hitting.)
That being said, make NO mistake that EVE is a level filled game to the extreme.
Everything requires skills to be at a certain level, often multiple primary, secondary, and terrtiary skills need to be at certain levels (1-5) to use a piece of equipment or ship.
Considering getting from level 3 to 4 or especially 4-5 in a single skill can take well over a day (24 hours) of training time, it's a slow grind.
Though the game is very free-form and you really can pursue so many different and varied paths through the game, getting to a point where you can actually survive and thrive does take some time.
Trying to get into a cap stable, well fitted cruiser and capable of soloing L2 missions by the time my trial is over. Not sure if I'm going to make it or not (trying to skill up to basic certification in passive shield tanking- very skill intensive)
That all being said, would EVE work as a level-less game? Well you'd still be limited by how much ISK you had to spend and the availability of mods/components for fitting etc.
Beyond that, all the fun galactic conquest stuff would be primarily limited by tactics and strength of numbers with all else being equal.
Yeah, I think it would work - you'd still have a social/ economic/ player-skill progression without all the long skill grind.
UO was unique in that the skill grind was SO minimal, you could "catch up" in skills enough on a new character in a matter of a couple of days/nights to play competitively.
Why quest without the rewards and stat/level progression? For the story and the lore.
Why PvP without stat/gear progression? For the thrill of victory and a territorial control system would be key. Like in UO.
Why PvE without stat/gear progression? For the challenge and the bragging rights, and the fellowship of completing something exciting and challening with your friends. Like in UO.
EQ really started the decline of the MMORPG genre, WoW hit the overdrive button, and now we are so far gone I doubt we'll ever try to go back.
Modern "sandbox" games always get it all wrong - too much grind, too much linear statistical progression, too little choice via forced PvP etc.
Well, of course it would matter what the game WAS...but yeah, I would LOVE a game where SKILLS were earned, not "levels". You don't go to school to earn new "levels" and only in a Government job can you get away with having no skills but being at the top level.
They may take our monthly fee but they can't take away our freedom! Ok sorry had a Braveheart moment there...
Well I don't know about you guys but I'll be playing Undead Labs zombie console mmo because it will be a sanbox style of mmo with freedom! http://undeadlabs.com/
It seems that a lot of people consider leveling skills, leveling characters, or gear upgrades to be the main divide between RPG and FPS games. So pretty much there is only one way to make such a MMO viable, and that is to change the progression entirely.
Progression is the main factor that contributes to your sense of accomplishment, getting a new level, new piece of gear, higher skill level. I propose that a different kind of progression could be just as fun and engaging as a level based one.
I think a skill unlock system would be pretty unique to the MMO genre. I would say it would be similar to Mega Man, where you not only unlock new skills for defeating powerful monster, but also from completing quests, crafting, trading, or purchasing from merchants.
You would be able to slot a certain amount of skills you discovered on your adventure.
The skills dont level up, your character doesn't level up, gear is only cosmetic, however, you still have the sense of progression from unlocking new skills to swap out.
As for combat in such a game, there can definitely be progressively harder monsters to fight as well, because you can make certain monsters near unkillable without a certain skill set. For example, you build your character to use nothing but fire skills, the fire elemental will probably just grow more powerful if you throw a fireball at him. So instead, you can switch out a fire skill for an Ice skill instead so as to make your efforts productive. If however, you do not have the Ice skill yet, you better have a friend that does, or you will have to go hunting for the elusive ice attack.
This skill system would cover a broad spectrum of attacks, buffs, debuffs, elemtal powers, etc..
This game would be like if Mega Man and Guild Wars had a baby.