I'm curious if the voting stayed the way it has, and say 1 million total people voted total. I wonder if a game company would make a game like that. After about 75% about of the million said they would play or at least try it. That would be 750,000 right there alone. Plus you add it being hyped,and maybe alot more. Just something cool to think about.
Doubt it. Developers with money wont risk deviating from the norm. I think they lack creativity as well.
You think they would really ignore 75% of 1 million voters? How bout 10 million votes with the percentages still staying the same?
How many players it would take to keep a game stable, financially, after a launch is a function of how much was spent on development before launch and how much is spent post-launch on server maintenence, how large of a staff they have, relationship with publisher (or self publish?) etc. etc.
There is no magic number.
A game with features comparable to those discussed in this thread would only be successful if it were a "well done" version of whatever niche audience/market it was targeting, and had realistic development and upkeep expenses. "Well done" is the key phrase. There have been many terribly-executed indie MMOs with many/some of these "classic" MMO ideas.
But would that be 50k players? 100k? 500k? More?
No way to know.
While it is fun to speculate and guestimate, anyone who gives any numbers or projections on a potential player base is dellusional - FYI.
Originally posted by heerobya Originally posted by katasteel For me the most fun is building the character, leveling, etc... With no leveling I doubt it would hold my interest very long.
What if character building were actually about building character?
It's easy to build stats and get gear and call your character a hero. Actually being a hero in a virtual world? That takes character.
How many players it would take to keep a game stable, financially, after a launch is a function of how much was spent on development before launch and how much is spent post-launch on server maintenence, how large of a staff they have, relationship with publisher (or self publish?) etc. etc.
There is no magic number.
A game with features comparable to those discussed in this thread would only be successful if it were a "well done" version of whatever niche audience/market it was targeting, and had realistic development and upkeep expenses. "Well done" is the key phrase. There have been many terribly-executed indie MMOs with many/some of these "classic" MMO ideas.
But would that be 50k players? 100k? 500k? More?
No way to know.
While it is fun to speculate and guestimate, anyone who gives any numbers or projections on a potential player base is dellusional - FYI.
I'm not meaning it to sound like I am guess sales numbers totally, or game cost to make such a game. I'm more wondering how many votes on a poll like this if the voting stayed the same as now, before a game company would actually try to make it.
I feel leveling is largely a waste of time anyay, getting better at something and/or more powerful is at best pointless and at worst seperates players and facilitates ganking.
Horizontal advancement is different, gaining new abilities and such actually does give a sense of progression, vertical advancement is just a practice in scaling numbers upward. Vertical advancement does creating pacing in content but I think there are other less harmful ways of doing that.
All men think they're fascinating. In my case, it's justified
Originally posted by Alot I think I would, but where's the learning curve, how do you know where the harder content is located if there are no areas dedicated to players ranging from level x to x? Players will require hard content once they've learned the basics.
Classic fantasy age map "here be monsters". I would love playing a game of skill where you'd see on your -not perfect map- that there are some kind of X-monsters out "there". Where I'd know they were out there and would have to be careful and "have a look", scout out give one of the "smaller" ones a try. To actually try your skill against them, and not just go to spot X oh-so-clearly marked on the radar/map and quickly slaughter x-number for quest updates in the "quest" to kill 10 mob-X. Doubt anything so interesting and immersive going to happen anytime soon, too many people want everything handed to them on a platter E-Z WoW mode.
The problem with most virtual worlds is that they make it FAR too easy to be a villain.
Being a villain is easy. It does not take character. It does not take sacrifice, nor honor, nor wisdom or logic.
Sure, anyone here could name villains in books, movies, RPGs, etc. that all had/have character.
Sure, there may be a few random examples of players in various virtual world MMOs that successfully played the role of a villain and still had character. I'd like to think I was one of them in UO on the Siege Perilous shard - sure I was a murdering PK but I never ganked or griefed anyone - I fought with honor and only to defend my territory from invaders.
But most of the time, for the vast majority in all of MMO history, villains in MMOs have generally just been assholes who aren't punished enough in game for their actions.
These wanna-be villains tend to also, by a very high %, be power-gamers and "hardcore" (lol tardcore maybe) and as such will out level and out skill and out gear most everyone else - and thus in a level or skill or gear based game, will be very difficult to stop.
A level-less game is a neccessity for a true and just and fair morality/alignment/honor system in a virtual world MMO.
I think I would, but where's the learning curve, how do you know where the harder content is located if there are no areas dedicated to players ranging from level x to x? Players will require hard content once they've learned the basics.
Classic fantasy age map "here be monsters". I would love playing a game of skill where you'd see on your -not perfect map- that there are some kind of X-monsters out "there". Where I'd know they were out there and would have to be careful and "have a look", scout out give one of the "smaller" ones a try. To actually try your skill against them, and not just go to spot X oh-so-clearly marked on the radar/map and quickly slaughter x-number for quest updates in the "quest" to kill 10 mob-X. Doubt anything so interesting and immersive going to happen anytime soon, too many people want everything handed to them on a platter E-Z WoW mode.
Before levels and "con" you'd have to ask other players about things - hear their cautionary tales about monsters and beasts whose power would incite both fear and wonder.
You'd also have to experiment a lot. See something new and un-tested out in the wilds, your next action became not just a choice but an adventure.
Sure, sometimes you'd be defeated - it's part of MMO gaming, death is not eternal however. Defeat is temporary.
Victory is eternal.
Epic battles. Being chased, running for your life through the wilds, adventure and excitement battling the unknown. Opportunity to be a hero - save someone weaker then you from certain death.
I can honestly say I have been very surprised by the voting and how strongly some people agree with a game like this. I mean it has only had a little over a 100 votes, but the percentages have stayed pretty much the way it is now. I wonder if we got this poll/thread to a larger group of people to see how the votes really would go. If a game company would take notice, if the voting stayed this way. Then who knows maybe someone really would try to make a game like this.
Just a little bit of sanity here - Remember big open world games shrunk for a very different reason - Many more people play MMORPGs today - probably ten times more than what in 2003 there was believed to be absolute capacity based on expected growth - Between all these people games get explored and solved down to every detail. wiki listings, game maps and guides all "shrink" the game world and often shortcut a tremendous amount of time once lost in older games, as well that by playing other MMOs, you have skills for handling other games like that, which make all subsequent MMORPGs that have a similar baseline style very easy to you even on day 1 possibly. These are game changers for most people weither or not they realize it fully.
Just a little bit of sanity here - Remember big open world games shrunk for a very different reason - Many more people play MMORPGs today - probably ten times more than what in 2003 there was believed to be absolute capacity based on expected growth - Between all these people games get explored and solved down to every detail. wiki listings, game maps and guides all "shrink" the game world and often shortcut a tremendous amount of time once lost in older games, as well that by playing other MMOs, you have skills for handling other games like that, which make all subsequent MMORPGs that have a similar baseline style very easy to you even on day 1 possibly. These are game changers for most people weither or not they realize it fully.
Lol going by your name, I don't think you can offer sanity. I'm just kidding man.
If you would have posted, "Mortal Online's theory actually crafted into a game without bugs and with even more crafting" you would have my vote. Plus it would have saved you time typing.
I derive my strength from passion. Do you feel that? That is what seperates you and I, Jedi!
If you would have posted, "Mortal Online's theory actually crafted into a game without bugs and with even more crafting" you would have my vote. Plus it would have saved you time typing.
I haven't played it because all the bad talk about how bugged, and messed up it is so I don't know how that game is set up.
If you would have posted, "Mortal Online's theory actually crafted into a game without bugs and with even more crafting" you would have my vote. Plus it would have saved you time typing.
I haven't played it because all the bad talk about how bugged, and messed up it is so I don't know how that game is set up.
It's literally my dream game thats been fucked up by the developers and never really went anywhere from launch. Everytime I drink and my true self comes out, I always wonder why I'm not playing it... sad life huh?
It's close to what you're asking for, atleast imo.
I derive my strength from passion. Do you feel that? That is what seperates you and I, Jedi!
OP, beautiful post! I'd add a little more depth to character advancement, but the key is to keep it simple, and keep it small for the sake of world balance. I've been meaning to make such a post myself, this is right where I want to see MMORPGs go. But you beat me to it, and kept it simple to make the point (just as I wanted to do).
Concentrating production on the other aspects is the key here. Some comments (many I've made before and this seems to be a good place to make them again). Forgive me if I'm repeating something here, I don't have time to read this entire topic and also make a post. And I really want to comment.
Huge world: For adventure, exploration, and discovery.
Terraforming world: Allows for things like earthquakes, floods, digging, clearing and....(next)...
Player construction: Building cities, temples, bridges, roads. Player housing that's part of the world and not instanced off separate.
AI: Giving MOBs AI both for individuals as well as groups can add loads to the game, all on it's own. Imagine MOBs that roam instead of just staying in one place. Imagine MOBs that group up and form societies, find good places to live in and add constructions to said places. No more web sites telling you where to go for this and that (in this aspect), and every adventure into the wilds is a new adventure.
Rare items and treasures: of great beauty to collect and display in homes and city buildings.
Player building knowledge: I'd love to see a system where players with a certain level of skill in specific areas can learn from the world. And example would be a mason finding an arch in a ruins, and studying it to learn how to build one himself. Or steeples, domes, whatever. Or a sculptor learning to make large marble or gilded statues.
You can also have discovery of special attacks, new magics, and such. Througfh books or experience against others. UO started with players learning skills just by watching others do them, and I've always thought that a more defined system would be great. Like learning a special move by fighting someone using it against you.
You know, the list can go on and on as possible elements for such a game. Pick and choose, make an exciting world to run around in for a long, long time.
I read the first couple pages, then skimmed the rest. What I am about to say may or may not have already been said.
From the looks of things most of this topic has been covered. As usual there are just a few camps of people out there. 1) Those that will play anything, if only "to give it a try". 2) Those that will play it but think it is more FPS than RPG. 3) Those that would play except it needs "X". 4) Those that will not play because it sounds dumb/laim/booring/etc.
Reading the OP I would have to agree that the game described is almost an FPS. The only thing that changes your combat ability at all is gear. "Skills" can level but mostly that is for creating items for a player market, no direct effect on game play. Having recently replayed Cod-MW2 this is almost exactly the same thing. (Except there are no real skills because there is no "market")
Reading a few other posts there are some good adjustments to the OP. But even those are just adding to the simple nature of the game. Eventually it all comes down to what I call the twitch factor. How fast are you, how stable is your connection, and how easily can you find the perfect combo for your play style / the map you are on. That is less about player skill and knowlege than it is about experience within that game.
I would play it. But mostly to see what easter eggs I could find and to screw up those people that have worked all that out. After all the amature swordsman is far more dangerous than the the fencing master, they are unpredictable.
Now, I have played a pnp rpg that is the epitimy of levelless, IMO. Starting stats are generated, including damage points, and skills are selected, based on "background". Any of these can be increased but there are two limits. 1) You can only increase a skill (or stat) when using it and geting a critical, success or failure. 2) The cost, in XP, to increase a skill increases over time. At a specific skill level the progression starts looking geometric. Stats increase at a cost about 10x a skill of the same rating.
The only real way to identify what "level" you are is the gear you have. Better guns will dish out more damage per hit and armor will prevent more damage. But even then it is possible (I have done it) to take down a major boss-class mosnter with basic weapons and crap armor. You just have to have the skill to do it.
And there is little reason for attempting to pwn noobs. After all an advanced character has only a few more damage points than the noob and all it take is one lucky shot. Because the noob just may have that super weapon, just not a lot of skill using it.
It may seem like a FPS, but what FPS can you build guild cities? What FPS can you build player housing? What FPS can you go live like a hermit, and have just your own house hidden way off in the woods? What FPS can you do quests, or just explore a huge open world? Finally what FPS is set in a medieval fantasy world? None. So maybe the combat is FPS like, but the game is hardly a FPS just because the combat is similar. This game IF done right could be an amazing game.
OP, beautiful post! I'd add a little more depth to character advancement, but the key is to keep it simple, and keep it small for the sake of world balance. I've been meaning to make such a post myself, this is right where I want to see MMORPGs go. But you beat me to it, and kept it simple to make the point (just as I wanted to do).
Concentrating production on the other aspects is the key here. Some comments (many I've made before and this seems to be a good place to make them again). Forgive me if I'm repeating something here, I don't have time to read this entire topic and also make a post. And I really want to comment.
Huge world: For adventure, exploration, and discovery.
Terraforming world: Allows for things like earthquakes, floods, digging, clearing and....(next)...
Player construction: Building cities, temples, bridges, roads. Player housing that's part of the world and not instanced off separate.
AI: Giving MOBs AI both for individuals as well as groups can add loads to the game, all on it's own. Imagine MOBs that roam instead of just staying in one place. Imagine MOBs that group up and form societies, find good places to live in and add constructions to said places. No more web sites telling you where to go for this and that (in this aspect), and every adventure into the wilds is a new adventure.
Rare items and treasures: of great beauty to collect and display in homes and city buildings.
Player building knowledge: I'd love to see a system where players with a certain level of skill in specific areas can learn from the world. And example would be a mason finding an arch in a ruins, and studying it to learn how to build one himself. Or steeples, domes, whatever. Or a sculptor learning to make large marble or gilded statues.
You can also have discovery of special attacks, new magics, and such. Througfh books or experience against others. UO started with players learning skills just by watching others do them, and I've always thought that a more defined system would be great. Like learning a special move by fighting someone using it against you.
You know, the list can go on and on as possible elements for such a game. Pick and choose, make an exciting world to run around in for a long, long time.
Thank you for the compliment, hope when you have time you can read through the whole OP.
For me the most fun is building the character, leveling, etc...
With no leveling I doubt it would hold my interest very long.
What if character building were actually about building character?
It's easy to build stats and get gear and call your character a hero.
Actually being a hero in a virtual world? That takes character.
I think it's fair to assume most of the posters here understand what you and the OP mean. What many of these posters are trying to tell you is that they would not find the kind of game you propose fun, not that it couldn't be made.
Most gamers know what sounds like fun to them. I enjoy a game with a good story, but I would not enjoy a levelless MMO. Building character? No thanks. That doesn't sound like a game I would find fun.
Comments
You think they would really ignore 75% of 1 million voters? How bout 10 million votes with the percentages still staying the same?
For me the most fun is building the character, leveling, etc...
With no leveling I doubt it would hold my interest very long.
How many players it would take to keep a game stable, financially, after a launch is a function of how much was spent on development before launch and how much is spent post-launch on server maintenence, how large of a staff they have, relationship with publisher (or self publish?) etc. etc.
There is no magic number.
A game with features comparable to those discussed in this thread would only be successful if it were a "well done" version of whatever niche audience/market it was targeting, and had realistic development and upkeep expenses. "Well done" is the key phrase. There have been many terribly-executed indie MMOs with many/some of these "classic" MMO ideas.
But would that be 50k players? 100k? 500k? More?
No way to know.
While it is fun to speculate and guestimate, anyone who gives any numbers or projections on a potential player base is dellusional - FYI.
What if character building were actually about building character?
It's easy to build stats and get gear and call your character a hero.
Actually being a hero in a virtual world? That takes character.
It's easy to build stats and get gear and call your character a hero.
Actually being a hero in a virtual world? That takes character.
Well said!
I'm not meaning it to sound like I am guess sales numbers totally, or game cost to make such a game. I'm more wondering how many votes on a poll like this if the voting stayed the same as now, before a game company would actually try to make it.
I agree. I think moving forward in this type of game would be much much harder than most of the other games we have out now.
I feel leveling is largely a waste of time anyay, getting better at something and/or more powerful is at best pointless and at worst seperates players and facilitates ganking.
Horizontal advancement is different, gaining new abilities and such actually does give a sense of progression, vertical advancement is just a practice in scaling numbers upward. Vertical advancement does creating pacing in content but I think there are other less harmful ways of doing that.
All men think they're fascinating. In my case, it's justified
Classic fantasy age map "here be monsters". I would love playing a game of skill where you'd see on your -not perfect map- that there are some kind of X-monsters out "there". Where I'd know they were out there and would have to be careful and "have a look", scout out give one of the "smaller" ones a try. To actually try your skill against them, and not just go to spot X oh-so-clearly marked on the radar/map and quickly slaughter x-number for quest updates in the "quest" to kill 10 mob-X. Doubt anything so interesting and immersive going to happen anytime soon, too many people want everything handed to them on a platter E-Z WoW mode.
The problem with most virtual worlds is that they make it FAR too easy to be a villain.
Being a villain is easy. It does not take character. It does not take sacrifice, nor honor, nor wisdom or logic.
Sure, anyone here could name villains in books, movies, RPGs, etc. that all had/have character.
Sure, there may be a few random examples of players in various virtual world MMOs that successfully played the role of a villain and still had character. I'd like to think I was one of them in UO on the Siege Perilous shard - sure I was a murdering PK but I never ganked or griefed anyone - I fought with honor and only to defend my territory from invaders.
But most of the time, for the vast majority in all of MMO history, villains in MMOs have generally just been assholes who aren't punished enough in game for their actions.
These wanna-be villains tend to also, by a very high %, be power-gamers and "hardcore" (lol tardcore maybe) and as such will out level and out skill and out gear most everyone else - and thus in a level or skill or gear based game, will be very difficult to stop.
A level-less game is a neccessity for a true and just and fair morality/alignment/honor system in a virtual world MMO.
Before levels and "con" you'd have to ask other players about things - hear their cautionary tales about monsters and beasts whose power would incite both fear and wonder.
You'd also have to experiment a lot. See something new and un-tested out in the wilds, your next action became not just a choice but an adventure.
Sure, sometimes you'd be defeated - it's part of MMO gaming, death is not eternal however. Defeat is temporary.
Victory is eternal.
Epic battles. Being chased, running for your life through the wilds, adventure and excitement battling the unknown. Opportunity to be a hero - save someone weaker then you from certain death.
These things simply don't happen anymore.
I can honestly say I have been very surprised by the voting and how strongly some people agree with a game like this. I mean it has only had a little over a 100 votes, but the percentages have stayed pretty much the way it is now. I wonder if we got this poll/thread to a larger group of people to see how the votes really would go. If a game company would take notice, if the voting stayed this way. Then who knows maybe someone really would try to make a game like this.
Changed title. It's a little corny, but hey lets see if this works. Worth a shot at least after all we got nothing to lose.
Just a little bit of sanity here - Remember big open world games shrunk for a very different reason - Many more people play MMORPGs today - probably ten times more than what in 2003 there was believed to be absolute capacity based on expected growth - Between all these people games get explored and solved down to every detail. wiki listings, game maps and guides all "shrink" the game world and often shortcut a tremendous amount of time once lost in older games, as well that by playing other MMOs, you have skills for handling other games like that, which make all subsequent MMORPGs that have a similar baseline style very easy to you even on day 1 possibly. These are game changers for most people weither or not they realize it fully.
Lol going by your name, I don't think you can offer sanity. I'm just kidding man.
Agree. Might as well play an FPS.
If you would have posted, "Mortal Online's theory actually crafted into a game without bugs and with even more crafting" you would have my vote. Plus it would have saved you time typing.
I derive my strength from passion. Do you feel that? That is what seperates you and I, Jedi!
I haven't played it because all the bad talk about how bugged, and messed up it is so I don't know how that game is set up.
It's literally my dream game thats been fucked up by the developers and never really went anywhere from launch. Everytime I drink and my true self comes out, I always wonder why I'm not playing it... sad life huh?
It's close to what you're asking for, atleast imo.
I derive my strength from passion. Do you feel that? That is what seperates you and I, Jedi!
OP, beautiful post! I'd add a little more depth to character advancement, but the key is to keep it simple, and keep it small for the sake of world balance. I've been meaning to make such a post myself, this is right where I want to see MMORPGs go. But you beat me to it, and kept it simple to make the point (just as I wanted to do).
Concentrating production on the other aspects is the key here. Some comments (many I've made before and this seems to be a good place to make them again). Forgive me if I'm repeating something here, I don't have time to read this entire topic and also make a post. And I really want to comment.
Huge world: For adventure, exploration, and discovery.
Terraforming world: Allows for things like earthquakes, floods, digging, clearing and....(next)...
Player construction: Building cities, temples, bridges, roads. Player housing that's part of the world and not instanced off separate.
AI: Giving MOBs AI both for individuals as well as groups can add loads to the game, all on it's own. Imagine MOBs that roam instead of just staying in one place. Imagine MOBs that group up and form societies, find good places to live in and add constructions to said places. No more web sites telling you where to go for this and that (in this aspect), and every adventure into the wilds is a new adventure.
Rare items and treasures: of great beauty to collect and display in homes and city buildings.
Player building knowledge: I'd love to see a system where players with a certain level of skill in specific areas can learn from the world. And example would be a mason finding an arch in a ruins, and studying it to learn how to build one himself. Or steeples, domes, whatever. Or a sculptor learning to make large marble or gilded statues.
You can also have discovery of special attacks, new magics, and such. Througfh books or experience against others. UO started with players learning skills just by watching others do them, and I've always thought that a more defined system would be great. Like learning a special move by fighting someone using it against you.
You know, the list can go on and on as possible elements for such a game. Pick and choose, make an exciting world to run around in for a long, long time.
Once upon a time....
I read the first couple pages, then skimmed the rest. What I am about to say may or may not have already been said.
From the looks of things most of this topic has been covered. As usual there are just a few camps of people out there. 1) Those that will play anything, if only "to give it a try". 2) Those that will play it but think it is more FPS than RPG. 3) Those that would play except it needs "X". 4) Those that will not play because it sounds dumb/laim/booring/etc.
Reading the OP I would have to agree that the game described is almost an FPS. The only thing that changes your combat ability at all is gear. "Skills" can level but mostly that is for creating items for a player market, no direct effect on game play. Having recently replayed Cod-MW2 this is almost exactly the same thing. (Except there are no real skills because there is no "market")
Reading a few other posts there are some good adjustments to the OP. But even those are just adding to the simple nature of the game. Eventually it all comes down to what I call the twitch factor. How fast are you, how stable is your connection, and how easily can you find the perfect combo for your play style / the map you are on. That is less about player skill and knowlege than it is about experience within that game.
I would play it. But mostly to see what easter eggs I could find and to screw up those people that have worked all that out. After all the amature swordsman is far more dangerous than the the fencing master, they are unpredictable.
Now, I have played a pnp rpg that is the epitimy of levelless, IMO. Starting stats are generated, including damage points, and skills are selected, based on "background". Any of these can be increased but there are two limits. 1) You can only increase a skill (or stat) when using it and geting a critical, success or failure. 2) The cost, in XP, to increase a skill increases over time. At a specific skill level the progression starts looking geometric. Stats increase at a cost about 10x a skill of the same rating.
The only real way to identify what "level" you are is the gear you have. Better guns will dish out more damage per hit and armor will prevent more damage. But even then it is possible (I have done it) to take down a major boss-class mosnter with basic weapons and crap armor. You just have to have the skill to do it.
And there is little reason for attempting to pwn noobs. After all an advanced character has only a few more damage points than the noob and all it take is one lucky shot. Because the noob just may have that super weapon, just not a lot of skill using it.
It may seem like a FPS, but what FPS can you build guild cities? What FPS can you build player housing? What FPS can you go live like a hermit, and have just your own house hidden way off in the woods? What FPS can you do quests, or just explore a huge open world? Finally what FPS is set in a medieval fantasy world? None. So maybe the combat is FPS like, but the game is hardly a FPS just because the combat is similar. This game IF done right could be an amazing game.
Thank you for the compliment, hope when you have time you can read through the whole OP.
I think it's fair to assume most of the posters here understand what you and the OP mean. What many of these posters are trying to tell you is that they would not find the kind of game you propose fun, not that it couldn't be made.
Most gamers know what sounds like fun to them. I enjoy a game with a good story, but I would not enjoy a levelless MMO. Building character? No thanks. That doesn't sound like a game I would find fun.