If you are in the business of making mmos then yes you are competing with WoW like it or not. There isn't any other way around it. That is like saying McDonalds, Burger King and Wendys don't compete for customers even though they are all in the fast food business.
Now that was back then and things were different, that is for sure, but just because a game is based on the Star Wars IP does not mean it'll drag in the players. Star Wars is a huge IP, but Star Wars has taken a beating by its fans over the years due to Lucas mucking up the lore and putting out one bad movie after another since Empire Strikes Back. So do not put all your eggs in a basket just yet.
Good point. Both Star Wars and Lord of the Rings, both some of the most popular franchises around, didn't guarantee phenomenal sales.
On the other hand, if Aion, WAR, AoC and Rift can already reach towards the 1 million sales, then the combination of BW and SW has a very high potential to reach even higher levels of sales, so it can go both ways.
Originally posted by Zoulz
Although your conclusion is sound. Nothing lasts forever and the wow challangers will still keep coming. No doubt.
A solid observation. Nothing lasts forever. Not even WoW as king of the hill (and no, I don't think SWTOR will 'kill' WoW', the idea of an MMO killer of any kind is already silly)
Originally posted by Garvon3
What people seem to be missing is that advertisement really was the deciding factor that got WoW going. If people mention MMOs, they think WoW, because its the most casual mainstream hit out there. So if anyone gets curious, they try WoW. They don't know there's a genre, cause none of the other games have as big a marketing budget as Blizzard does. That's where WoWs original player base came from, outside the MMO market, that's why core MMO fans get angry with all the WoW clones, which aren't aimed at MMO players. I'd hardly call Rift a success yet, considering how much its population is dropping off, but it did have the most advertising I've seen in an MMO since WoW.
I think BW with SWTOR comes closest to Blizzard with WoW with the starting position: a non-MMO fanbase that's interested in their MMO venture because of former games, a solid reputation and lots of goodwill as a game company, and the backing of one of the powerhouses in publishing, EA.
So if an advertisement storm campaign is needed, EA can deliver that for BW. Personally, I think it was the combination of advertising campaigns and word-of-mouth that kept people talking about it and raised awareness outside the MMO playerbase.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
While i know this game is going to be popular........as an MMO vet im going to pass on SWTOR and put all my eggs into one basket..............GW2
Playing: PO, EVE Waiting for: WoD Favourite MMOs: VG, EVE, FE and DDO Any person who expresses rage and loathing for an MMO is preposterous. He or she is like a person who has put on full armor and attacked a hot fudge sundae.
I'm not saying i'm in beta (^_<), but SWTOR is almost identical to WOW in every way, except spaceships and companions. That's how I know without a doubt that they're going after players in WOW.
I never thought I would have make a comment like this, and i'm not excited having to say it, but it's true.
I'm a big Star Wars fan and I love WOW, but I just don't think it hit the spot for me
Now that's nonsense. Sure it has similarities in gameplay, but if you can't see the differences then you're blinding yourself to it. Unless you're saying that LotrO, Aion, Rift, AoC, WAR are also exactly the same as WoW, then you have a point, namely that to you themepark styled MMO equals 'identical to WoW'.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Do you think wow players would play other MMOs if they knew they existed? If so, why haven't the other devs been able to capture their attention?
You know I know 5 people that I played WoW with. All have been playing it for over 5 years. One is my roomie. I have tried repeatedly to get her(and the others) to play other MMO's and like the others we game with, she see's no reason to leave WoW. Not stretching the truth or lying. She just has no interest whatsoever in leaving WoW, neither do any of the others(mind you I have tried to get them to play EVE, and many other newer releases). To them WoW has more than enough game left in it to keep them occupied for years to come. They sight the various raids, classes, achievements, and other things. Just to let you know, she has 6 level 85's, and 4 other toons between level 75 and 50! Many of the people she plays with have as many or more. That is right she plays 10 toons. The max you can have for a server. She has watched me play other games like Aion, Rift, WAR, AoC and she is like..."OK, so what is the big deal? Those games lack half the stuff WoW has, why would I even give those game a look?" She just does not care. Neither do the others. They just do not care. They are happy playing WoW. They play maybe 2 hours a night at most (if that even), so I think of them as casual players.
BTW - these people didn't get into online gaming until WoW. They didn't play EQ, AC, or DAoC, UO - none of them - just WoW.
Very likely WoW was their first MMO, and its very hard to break the magic your first MMO has over you. Especially one that is so insanely simple and carrot on a stick designed. How do you go from a game that rewards you for doing nothing, to a game that's slightly difficult? Ah yes now I see that WoW was indeed their first MMO. They haven't had the veil lifted yet, and realized that they're just running on an endless treadmill that means nothing.
While i know this game is going to be popular........as an MMO vet im going to pass on SWTOR and put all my eggs into one basket..............GW2
Playing: PO, EVE Waiting for: WoD Favourite MMOs: VG, EVE, FE and DDO Any person who expresses rage and loathing for an MMO is preposterous. He or she is like a person who has put on full armor and attacked a hot fudge sundae.
If you are in the business of making mmos then yes you are competing with WoW like it or not. There isn't any other way around it. That is like saying McDonalds, Burger King and Wendys don't compete for customers even though they are all in the fast food business.
Not really. If you are in the business of making WoW clones ( wouldn't call them real MMORPGs, WoW is hardly an MMO) then you compete with WoW. If you make real MMOs like DAoC or Ultima Online, you're aiming for the core MMO market, not WoW players.
Not really. If you are in the business of making WoW clones ( wouldn't call them real MMORPGs, WoW is hardly an MMO) then you compete with WoW. If you make real MMOs like DAoC or Ultima Online, you're aiming for the core MMO market, not WoW players.
So, according to you the MMO market is actually < 500k MMO gamers.
Interesting viewpoint.
Why don't you just call it like it is? You only see full or hybrid sandbox MMO's as real MMO's, nothing else.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I'm not saying i'm in beta (^_<), but SWTOR is almost identical to WOW in every way, except spaceships and companions. That's how I know without a doubt that they're going after players in WOW.
I never thought I would have make a comment like this, and i'm not excited having to say it, but it's true.
I'm a big Star Wars fan and I love WOW, but I just don't think it hit the spot for me
Now that's nonsense. Sure it has similarities in gameplay, but if you can't see the differences then you're blinding yourself to it. Unless you're saying that LotrO, Aion, Rift, AoC, WAR are also exactly the same as WoW, then you have a point, namely that to you themepark styled MMO equals 'identical to WoW'.
Themepark MMOs are not identical to WoW. WoW clones are identical WoW, you just rattled off a list of WoW clones. Would people call Dark Age of Camelot sandbox? No. EverQuest? No. Fallen Earth? No. Then that must mean they're themepark-esque, right? Right. Are they like WoW? Not even a little bit. Stop trying to shoe horn all games into two categories. WAR, Aion, LotRO, AoC, Rift, they're all shameless WoW clones with almost NO features to call their own (WAR is the ever so slight exception, but its PvE system is so WoW clone-y it makes up for it)
Not really. If you are in the business of making WoW clones ( wouldn't call them real MMORPGs, WoW is hardly an MMO) then you compete with WoW. If you make real MMOs like DAoC or Ultima Online, you're aiming for the core MMO market, not WoW players.
So, according to you the MMO market is actually < 500k MMO gamers.
Interesting viewpoint.
Why don't you just call it like it is? You only see full or hybrid sandbox MMO's as real MMO's, nothing else.
I see MMORPGs as what they were originally sold as. Massive virtual worlds that allowed you to play with thousands of players at once, the focus of such games being on immersion and socializing. MMOs followed this trend until WoW came out. Sandbox is not necessary. Unless you believe that all MMOs that came out before WoW were sandbox (rolls eyes)
Games like WoW, with their solo quest grind and abusive instancing, and dungeon finder tools, kill immersion, the virtual world feel, and the socializing. They're more like Diablo than MMOs. You wouldn't call Guild Wars an MMO, would you? Not even their devs call it an MMO.
And yeah, I'd say the core MMORPG gamer demographic is closer to about 2-3 million players. The (insert inflated Blizzard number here) that play WoW are WoW gamers. Just like the grandmas and folks that play Wiisports are Wii players, not gamers.
No MMO ever is going to challenege WOW. its been 7 years now and it is getting boring.....give up. Just enjoy the MMO you play and stop this obsession with topping WOW.
I've been playing WoW on and off since the first open beta. While my guild has been waiting for new content to arrive, many of us have been playing rift. The other day, a few of us did a BWD run and I couldn't believe how much more dated the graphics looked to me.
You mention that WoW has been around 7 years. That's kind of the problem. It may continue to have the largest player base for a few more years, but the game is horrible to look at, and making insignificant changes to how the water looks doesn't really do much to alter that. Even Blizzard knows this, that's why they're working on a new MMO. The next couple of years will most likely give rise to a number of games that will challenge WoW. If you're an undeterred fanboy, good for you, but nothing lasts forever.
And what makes you think that millions of players play WOW for its graphics? its about gameplay and that is why WOW is the king and will remain on top in coming years. it has nothing to do with being a fanboy considering the longest i have played WOW was for 6 months last year. But i also do not live in denial and like to use logic from time to time.
As far as next couple of years giving rise to number of MMOS to challenege WOW, been there done that. Sorry not happening.
Themepark MMOs are not identical to WoW. WoW clones are identical WoW, you just rattled off a list of WoW clones. Would people call Dark Age of Camelot sandbox? No. EverQuest? No. Fallen Earth? No. Then that must mean they're themepark-esque, right? Right. Are they like WoW? Not even a little bit. Stop trying to shoe horn all games into two categories. WAR, Aion, LotRO, AoC, Rift, they're all shameless WoW clones with almost NO features to call their own (WAR is the ever so slight exception, but its PvE system is so WoW clone-y it makes up for it)
I could as well say, stop spouting this insane hatred of themepark MMO's that apparently disgust you, but that doesn't stop you either now, does it?
WoW was to many considered an EQ clone, so there's your similarity, people doing exactly the same back then as you and people like you're doing labeling any MMO with some similarities in gameplay a 'clone'.
That list of MMO's I mentioned are themepark MMO's, and yes, those have similarities in gameplay design with WoW, get over it. It doesn't mean they're identical to WoW, far from.
Anyone who can't see that, let their dislikes blind them to the obvious.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Do you think wow players would play other MMOs if they knew they existed? If so, why haven't the other devs been able to capture their attention?
You know I know 5 people that I played WoW with. All have been playing it for over 5 years. One is my roomie. I have tried repeatedly to get her(and the others) to play other MMO's and like the others we game with, she see's no reason to leave WoW. Not stretching the truth or lying. She just has no interest whatsoever in leaving WoW, neither do any of the others(mind you I have tried to get them to play EVE, and many other newer releases). To them WoW has more than enough game left in it to keep them occupied for years to come. They sight the various raids, classes, achievements, and other things. Just to let you know, she has 6 level 85's, and 4 other toons between level 75 and 50! Many of the people she plays with have as many or more. That is right she plays 10 toons. The max you can have for a server. She has watched me play other games like Aion, Rift, WAR, AoC and she is like..."OK, so what is the big deal? Those games lack half the stuff WoW has, why would I even give those game a look?" She just does not care. Neither do the others. They just do not care. They are happy playing WoW. They play maybe 2 hours a night at most (if that even), so I think of them as casual players.
BTW - these people didn't get into online gaming until WoW. They didn't play EQ, AC, or DAoC, UO - none of them - just WoW.
Very likely WoW was their first MMO, and its very hard to break the magic your first MMO has over you. Especially one that is so insanely simple and carrot on a stick designed. How do you go from a game that rewards you for doing nothing, to a game that's slightly difficult? Ah yes now I see that WoW was indeed their first MMO. They haven't had the veil lifted yet, and realized that they're just running on an endless treadmill that means nothing.
What is simple to you might not be simple to everyone else. Who are you to judge? In essense, all games are just a treadmill that means nothing. Playing a game won't make the world a better place or invent the cure for cancer. So why is your taste better than everyone elses? Sorry, you just sound like another arrogant hardcore gamer lamenting the "good old days" when playing MMORPGs was exotic and you felt just a wee bit special. Those days are past. Instead of whining about how bad wow is, why don't you try to make something constructive about it instead. Build your own game or help others that share your views.
Do you think wow players would play other MMOs if they knew they existed? If so, why haven't the other devs been able to capture their attention?
You know I know 5 people that I played WoW with. All have been playing it for over 5 years. One is my roomie. I have tried repeatedly to get her(and the others) to play other MMO's and like the others we game with, she see's no reason to leave WoW. Not stretching the truth or lying. She just has no interest whatsoever in leaving WoW, neither do any of the others(mind you I have tried to get them to play EVE, and many other newer releases). To them WoW has more than enough game left in it to keep them occupied for years to come. They sight the various raids, classes, achievements, and other things. Just to let you know, she has 6 level 85's, and 4 other toons between level 75 and 50! Many of the people she plays with have as many or more. That is right she plays 10 toons. The max you can have for a server. She has watched me play other games like Aion, Rift, WAR, AoC and she is like..."OK, so what is the big deal? Those games lack half the stuff WoW has, why would I even give those game a look?" She just does not care. Neither do the others. They just do not care. They are happy playing WoW. They play maybe 2 hours a night at most (if that even), so I think of them as casual players.
BTW - these people didn't get into online gaming until WoW. They didn't play EQ, AC, or DAoC, UO - none of them - just WoW.
Very likely WoW was their first MMO, and its very hard to break the magic your first MMO has over you. Especially one that is so insanely simple and carrot on a stick designed. How do you go from a game that rewards you for doing nothing, to a game that's slightly difficult? Ah yes now I see that WoW was indeed their first MMO. They haven't had the veil lifted yet, and realized that they're just running on an endless treadmill that means nothing.
Or they could just be logging in because it's fun to them.
Not everyone approaches games (or media of any sort) as something that has to be transformative.
Not everyone cares or even wants to be considered a "gamer".
Just looking at the top 10 movies for this past week I see that Rio is number one. I guess the people who made that possible didn't have the veil removed from their eyes or at least weren't lucky enough to get a polanski film festival at their local AMC.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
No MMO ever is going to challenege WOW. its been 7 years now and it is getting boring.....give up. Just enjoy the MMO you play and stop this obsession with topping WOW.
I've been playing WoW on and off since the first open beta. While my guild has been waiting for new content to arrive, many of us have been playing rift. The other day, a few of us did a BWD run and I couldn't believe how much more dated the graphics looked to me.
You mention that WoW has been around 7 years. That's kind of the problem. It may continue to have the largest player base for a few more years, but the game is horrible to look at, and making insignificant changes to how the water looks doesn't really do much to alter that. Even Blizzard knows this, that's why they're working on a new MMO. The next couple of years will most likely give rise to a number of games that will challenge WoW. If you're an undeterred fanboy, good for you, but nothing lasts forever.
And what makes you think that millions of players play WOW for its graphics? its about gameplay and that is why WOW is the king and will remain on top in coming years. it has nothing to do with being a fanboy considering the longest i have played WOW was for 6 months last year. But i also do not live in denial and like to use logic from time to time.
As far as next couple of years giving rise to number of MMOS to challenege WOW, been there done that. Sorry not happening.
Sorry, but how is WoW gameplay "king"? It has no unique features that can't be found in other games. Advertising to casuals and momentum are the things that make WoW "king"
Will threads like this ever end? I mean how can you even possibly compare the two when one hasn't even come out yet. This is opinion and not based in any realm other then pure pig-headedness so why do people continue with these discussions.
No MMO ever is going to challenege WOW. its been 7 years now and it is getting boring.....give up. Just enjoy the MMO you play and stop this obsession with topping WOW.
I've been playing WoW on and off since the first open beta. While my guild has been waiting for new content to arrive, many of us have been playing rift. The other day, a few of us did a BWD run and I couldn't believe how much more dated the graphics looked to me.
You mention that WoW has been around 7 years. That's kind of the problem. It may continue to have the largest player base for a few more years, but the game is horrible to look at, and making insignificant changes to how the water looks doesn't really do much to alter that. Even Blizzard knows this, that's why they're working on a new MMO. The next couple of years will most likely give rise to a number of games that will challenge WoW. If you're an undeterred fanboy, good for you, but nothing lasts forever.
And what makes you think that millions of players play WOW for its graphics? its about gameplay and that is why WOW is the king and will remain on top in coming years. it has nothing to do with being a fanboy considering the longest i have played WOW was for 6 months last year. But i also do not live in denial and like to use logic from time to time.
As far as next couple of years giving rise to number of MMOS to challenege WOW, been there done that. Sorry not happening.
Sorry, but how is WoW gameplay "king"? It has no unique features that can't be found in other games. Advertising to casuals and momentum are the things that make WoW "king"
There are lots of MMOS that cater to casuals but yet somehow WOW is the top dog. Obvious is in front of your eyes but you refuse to see it. Also advertising only go so far. It can attract you to the game but if gameplay sucks players will quit regardless of how good the advertisiments are.
Themepark MMOs are not identical to WoW. WoW clones are identical WoW, you just rattled off a list of WoW clones. Would people call Dark Age of Camelot sandbox? No. EverQuest? No. Fallen Earth? No. Then that must mean they're themepark-esque, right? Right. Are they like WoW? Not even a little bit. Stop trying to shoe horn all games into two categories. WAR, Aion, LotRO, AoC, Rift, they're all shameless WoW clones with almost NO features to call their own (WAR is the ever so slight exception, but its PvE system is so WoW clone-y it makes up for it)
I could as well say, stop spouting this insane hatred of themepark MMO's that apparently disgust you, but that doesn't stop you either now, does it?
WoW was to many considered an EQ clone, so there's your similarity, people doing exactly the same back then as you and people like you're doing labeling any MMO with some similarities in gameplay a 'clone'.
That list of MMO's I mentioned are themepark MMO's, and yes, those have similarities in gameplay design with WoW, get over it. It doesn't mean they're identical to WoW, far from.
Anyone who can't see that, let their dislikes blind them to the obvious.
I don't hate themepark games. I'm tired of seeing a genre I used to love polluted with WoW clones. I'd welcome a theme park game that did something unique like they used to. WoW IS an EQ clone, just with many features removed. The gameplay style and objective is exactly the same though. And no, the games before WoW were too vastly different from one another to be called clones. DAoC was the closest thing we had to a clone back then, and even that had the hugely innovative RvR system.
Yes the list of games you pumped out are WoW clones. From the UI, to the leveling system, to the end game goal, to the styles of instancing, to the style of quests, every feature just copy and pasted from WoW. "Oh but Conan has boobs, and LotRO has Sauron and Aion has wings, IT'S TOTALLY DIFFERENT!" No, its not. MMOs that are actually different have core gameplay mechanics that are unique, not superficial tacked on features to make it "different". Sorry if you're just too used to playing the same games over and over that you see the slightest change in grass color tone as a "difference"
im one of those people who plays the games i like, not the games that has the highest revenue, so really i dont care if this game tops that game in terms of subs or any other aspect, if its fun and i like the game i play, if its not i dont, theres no more to it than that
I don't hate themepark games. I'm tired of seeing a genre I used to love polluted with WoW clones. I'd welcome a theme park game that did something unique like they used to. WoW IS an EQ clone, just with many features removed. The gameplay style and objective is exactly the same though. And no, the games before WoW were too vastly different from one another to be called clones. DAoC was the closest thing we had to a clone back then, and even that had the hugely innovative RvR system.
Yes the list of games you pumped out are WoW clones. From the UI, to the leveling system, to the end game goal, to the styles of instancing, to the style of quests, every feature just copy and pasted from WoW. "Oh but Conan has boobs, and LotRO has Sauron and Aion has wings, IT'S TOTALLY DIFFERENT!" No, its not. MMOs that are actually different have core gameplay mechanics that are unique, not superficial tacked on features to make it "different". Sorry if you're just too used to playing the same games over and over that you see the slightest change in grass color tone as a "difference"
Look. I get where you're coming from, and with parts of it I even agree: MMO's before WoW did favor more community oriented gameplay, and MMO's were more different from eachother than the top MMO's are now.
Where we disagree is, that you've written off the whole WoW-styled, themepark MMO where me and others like me haven't.
To you, all the games that have that kind of themepark design, you dislike in such a way that you won't even acknowledge the differences. Because to you, the differences don't matter, because they're not enough.
Me, I acknowledge the differences even if I'm fully aware that the top MMO's of these days aren't as distinctive from eachother as those first few MMO's were.
Want to talk differences with WoW, besides graphics, setting or atmosphere? Ok, out of the top of my head:
- AoC: siege warfare, guildcities, cinematic questing, melee combat (directional, combos, fatalities) and, to a lesser degree hybrid class focus (a small thing, but it made playing a number of classes a lot different from WoW class gameplay)
- LotrO: book quests, MVP, a lot more roleplay focus in towns of player houses, guild houses, social clothing tab, and player made ingame music
- Aion: flying/gliding, aerial combat, siege warfare, interesting and different RvR via territory control PvP and invasion PvP
I'm not going to mention MMO's like CO, DCUO or STO that are decidely different from WoW gameplay as much as that COX and Planetside were different from an EQ or DAoC as MMO's. Neither am I going to mention games like FFXIV or Xsyon, since I'm guessing you're only looking at the top AAA MMO's.
But even in those, while having similarities to WoW in gameplay, there are also differences in core gameplay aspects that are present.
edit:
I forgot, Rift in the list. Rift has some gameplay features that are different from WoW as well, even very different from WoW in one of its core gameplay aspect, namely the rift PvE content. That's a major different kind of leveling than the traditional quest leveling, and also more player teamwork minded.
As for other upcoming MMO's, I'd find it strange if you weren't able to acknowledge the major different kind of gameplay that MMO's like GW2, TSW, Firefall or ArcheAge have to offer, because if so, I'd really be wondering what it is you're looking for in an MMORPG.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
And yet the vast majority of difference you've listed are cosmetic tacked on differences, or not really different at all (clothing tab and book quests, I mean really?) And yes, AoC's "siege" warfare may have been nice if it hadn't been tacked on as an afterthought. As it is now, its far inferior to an MMO that came out 9 years earlier than it, and the primary focus of the game isn't based around it. I wanted to like AoC but I couldn't stomach the moronic WoW quests for more than an hour. They had me gathering bricks. Not only did they mark the bricks on my map, but they SPARKLED. Nothing about that is "cinematic".
And yet the vast majority of difference you've listed are cosmetic tacked on differences, or not really different at all (clothing tab and book quests, I mean really?) And yes, AoC's "siege" warfare may have been nice if it hadn't been tacked on as an afterthought. As it is now, its far inferior to an MMO that came out 9 years earlier than it, and the primary focus of the game isn't based around it. I wanted to like AoC but I couldn't stomach the moronic WoW quests for more than an hour. They had me gathering bricks. Not only did they mark the bricks on my map, but they SPARKLED. Nothing about that is "cinematic".
I think your real problem is with quest leveling: any game that has quest leveling, it seems you can't stomach, no matter what else they have to offer.
In my former post I added Rift, which has a different path of leveling, as well as other upcoming MMO's that are significantly different in gameplay features. I didn't see the differences I listed for the current MMO's as cosmetic, and I sure as hell don't see the differences of the upcoming MMO's as merely cosmetic.
Oh, btw, siege warfare and invasion PvP isn't "tacked on" in Aion, it's core gameplay that you almost can't avoid even if you want to. Aion might not be your type of RvR MMO because of other reasons, it still offers it in its own unique way.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
No MMO ever is going to challenege WOW. its been 7 years now and it is getting boring.....give up. Just enjoy the MMO you play and stop this obsession with topping WOW.
I've been playing WoW on and off since the first open beta. While my guild has been waiting for new content to arrive, many of us have been playing rift. The other day, a few of us did a BWD run and I couldn't believe how much more dated the graphics looked to me.
You mention that WoW has been around 7 years. That's kind of the problem. It may continue to have the largest player base for a few more years, but the game is horrible to look at, and making insignificant changes to how the water looks doesn't really do much to alter that. Even Blizzard knows this, that's why they're working on a new MMO. The next couple of years will most likely give rise to a number of games that will challenge WoW. If you're an undeterred fanboy, good for you, but nothing lasts forever.
And what makes you think that millions of players play WOW for its graphics? its about gameplay and that is why WOW is the king and will remain on top in coming years. it has nothing to do with being a fanboy considering the longest i have played WOW was for 6 months last year. But i also do not live in denial and like to use logic from time to time.
As far as next couple of years giving rise to number of MMOS to challenege WOW, been there done that. Sorry not happening.
Sorry, but how is WoW gameplay "king"? It has no unique features that can't be found in other games. Advertising to casuals and momentum are the things that make WoW "king"
It's the "King" because of it's established, in-depth game play. Just look at all the features; raiding, BGs, Arena, valor/justice point system rewards, factions, proffesions ect ect. It's highly developed and the uniqueness is the quality it has which no game has yet to be on par with. No I'm not a WoW player, quite and gonna remain so, however not acknowledging their position is just plain ignorant.
Tired of the "Demise of WoW" threads or comparisons to it. WoW is gonna be the king of MMOs unless some drastically rennovating game comes along which there is none, and don't make me laugh by saying SWTOR is. SWTOR uses the same formula as WoW who used the same formula as EQ and so on and so forth but with some added features but nothing all that drastic.
While GW2 does seen the most rennovating game upcoming, however it's not enough as ANet is limiting themselves by staying as a casual friendly MMO and not including elements that WoW/SWTOR/Rift has 10+ raiding and non-cosmetic gear drops.
It's star wars, of course their gona pull millions of players from wow, hell star wars is the reasona a vast number of people got into games in the first place, and that will not have been forgotten .
Same was said about Lord of the Rings and Warhammer MMO, but they failed.
How is LOTRO a failure? I can see saying that for Warhammer, but not LOTRO.
I was responding to the qouted part about pulling millions of players from WoW, that is where they failed. However WoW is getting old so Bioware might have the time on their side...
Comments
If you are in the business of making mmos then yes you are competing with WoW like it or not. There isn't any other way around it. That is like saying McDonalds, Burger King and Wendys don't compete for customers even though they are all in the fast food business.
Good point. Both Star Wars and Lord of the Rings, both some of the most popular franchises around, didn't guarantee phenomenal sales.
On the other hand, if Aion, WAR, AoC and Rift can already reach towards the 1 million sales, then the combination of BW and SW has a very high potential to reach even higher levels of sales, so it can go both ways.
A solid observation. Nothing lasts forever. Not even WoW as king of the hill
(and no, I don't think SWTOR will 'kill' WoW', the idea of an MMO killer of any kind is already silly)
I think BW with SWTOR comes closest to Blizzard with WoW with the starting position: a non-MMO fanbase that's interested in their MMO venture because of former games, a solid reputation and lots of goodwill as a game company, and the backing of one of the powerhouses in publishing, EA.
So if an advertisement storm campaign is needed, EA can deliver that for BW. Personally, I think it was the combination of advertising campaigns and word-of-mouth that kept people talking about it and raised awareness outside the MMO playerbase.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
While i know this game is going to be popular........as an MMO vet im going to pass on SWTOR and put all my eggs into one basket..............GW2
Playing: PO, EVE
Waiting for: WoD
Favourite MMOs: VG, EVE, FE and DDO
Any person who expresses rage and loathing for an MMO is preposterous. He or she is like a person who has put on full armor and attacked a hot fudge sundae.
Now that's nonsense. Sure it has similarities in gameplay, but if you can't see the differences then you're blinding yourself to it. Unless you're saying that LotrO, Aion, Rift, AoC, WAR are also exactly the same as WoW, then you have a point, namely that to you themepark styled MMO equals 'identical to WoW'.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Very likely WoW was their first MMO, and its very hard to break the magic your first MMO has over you. Especially one that is so insanely simple and carrot on a stick designed. How do you go from a game that rewards you for doing nothing, to a game that's slightly difficult? Ah yes now I see that WoW was indeed their first MMO. They haven't had the veil lifted yet, and realized that they're just running on an endless treadmill that means nothing.
While i know this game is going to be popular........as an MMO vet im going to pass on SWTOR and put all my eggs into one basket..............GW2
Playing: PO, EVE
Waiting for: WoD
Favourite MMOs: VG, EVE, FE and DDO
Any person who expresses rage and loathing for an MMO is preposterous. He or she is like a person who has put on full armor and attacked a hot fudge sundae.
Not really. If you are in the business of making WoW clones ( wouldn't call them real MMORPGs, WoW is hardly an MMO) then you compete with WoW. If you make real MMOs like DAoC or Ultima Online, you're aiming for the core MMO market, not WoW players.
So, according to you the MMO market is actually < 500k MMO gamers.
Interesting viewpoint.
Why don't you just call it like it is? You only see full or hybrid sandbox MMO's as real MMO's, nothing else.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Themepark MMOs are not identical to WoW. WoW clones are identical WoW, you just rattled off a list of WoW clones. Would people call Dark Age of Camelot sandbox? No. EverQuest? No. Fallen Earth? No. Then that must mean they're themepark-esque, right? Right. Are they like WoW? Not even a little bit. Stop trying to shoe horn all games into two categories. WAR, Aion, LotRO, AoC, Rift, they're all shameless WoW clones with almost NO features to call their own (WAR is the ever so slight exception, but its PvE system is so WoW clone-y it makes up for it)
I see MMORPGs as what they were originally sold as. Massive virtual worlds that allowed you to play with thousands of players at once, the focus of such games being on immersion and socializing. MMOs followed this trend until WoW came out. Sandbox is not necessary. Unless you believe that all MMOs that came out before WoW were sandbox (rolls eyes)
Games like WoW, with their solo quest grind and abusive instancing, and dungeon finder tools, kill immersion, the virtual world feel, and the socializing. They're more like Diablo than MMOs. You wouldn't call Guild Wars an MMO, would you? Not even their devs call it an MMO.
And yeah, I'd say the core MMORPG gamer demographic is closer to about 2-3 million players. The (insert inflated Blizzard number here) that play WoW are WoW gamers. Just like the grandmas and folks that play Wiisports are Wii players, not gamers.
And what makes you think that millions of players play WOW for its graphics? its about gameplay and that is why WOW is the king and will remain on top in coming years. it has nothing to do with being a fanboy considering the longest i have played WOW was for 6 months last year. But i also do not live in denial and like to use logic from time to time.
As far as next couple of years giving rise to number of MMOS to challenege WOW, been there done that. Sorry not happening.
I could as well say, stop spouting this insane hatred of themepark MMO's that apparently disgust you, but that doesn't stop you either now, does it?
WoW was to many considered an EQ clone, so there's your similarity, people doing exactly the same back then as you and people like you're doing labeling any MMO with some similarities in gameplay a 'clone'.
That list of MMO's I mentioned are themepark MMO's, and yes, those have similarities in gameplay design with WoW, get over it. It doesn't mean they're identical to WoW, far from.
Anyone who can't see that, let their dislikes blind them to the obvious.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
What is simple to you might not be simple to everyone else. Who are you to judge? In essense, all games are just a treadmill that means nothing. Playing a game won't make the world a better place or invent the cure for cancer. So why is your taste better than everyone elses? Sorry, you just sound like another arrogant hardcore gamer lamenting the "good old days" when playing MMORPGs was exotic and you felt just a wee bit special. Those days are past. Instead of whining about how bad wow is, why don't you try to make something constructive about it instead. Build your own game or help others that share your views.
If their goal is to make money, they will be challenging WoW.
Or they could just be logging in because it's fun to them.
Not everyone approaches games (or media of any sort) as something that has to be transformative.
Not everyone cares or even wants to be considered a "gamer".
Just looking at the top 10 movies for this past week I see that Rio is number one. I guess the people who made that possible didn't have the veil removed from their eyes or at least weren't lucky enough to get a polanski film festival at their local AMC.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Sorry, but how is WoW gameplay "king"? It has no unique features that can't be found in other games. Advertising to casuals and momentum are the things that make WoW "king"
Will threads like this ever end? I mean how can you even possibly compare the two when one hasn't even come out yet. This is opinion and not based in any realm other then pure pig-headedness so why do people continue with these discussions.
/end rant
Retired: EVE, SWG, STO, EQ2, Ryzom, AO, LotRO, FFXI
Currently Awaiting: SWTOR, TSW, ArcheAge
There are lots of MMOS that cater to casuals but yet somehow WOW is the top dog. Obvious is in front of your eyes but you refuse to see it. Also advertising only go so far. It can attract you to the game but if gameplay sucks players will quit regardless of how good the advertisiments are.
I don't hate themepark games. I'm tired of seeing a genre I used to love polluted with WoW clones. I'd welcome a theme park game that did something unique like they used to. WoW IS an EQ clone, just with many features removed. The gameplay style and objective is exactly the same though. And no, the games before WoW were too vastly different from one another to be called clones. DAoC was the closest thing we had to a clone back then, and even that had the hugely innovative RvR system.
Yes the list of games you pumped out are WoW clones. From the UI, to the leveling system, to the end game goal, to the styles of instancing, to the style of quests, every feature just copy and pasted from WoW. "Oh but Conan has boobs, and LotRO has Sauron and Aion has wings, IT'S TOTALLY DIFFERENT!" No, its not. MMOs that are actually different have core gameplay mechanics that are unique, not superficial tacked on features to make it "different". Sorry if you're just too used to playing the same games over and over that you see the slightest change in grass color tone as a "difference"
im one of those people who plays the games i like, not the games that has the highest revenue, so really i dont care if this game tops that game in terms of subs or any other aspect, if its fun and i like the game i play, if its not i dont, theres no more to it than that
Look. I get where you're coming from, and with parts of it I even agree: MMO's before WoW did favor more community oriented gameplay, and MMO's were more different from eachother than the top MMO's are now.
Where we disagree is, that you've written off the whole WoW-styled, themepark MMO where me and others like me haven't.
To you, all the games that have that kind of themepark design, you dislike in such a way that you won't even acknowledge the differences. Because to you, the differences don't matter, because they're not enough.
Me, I acknowledge the differences even if I'm fully aware that the top MMO's of these days aren't as distinctive from eachother as those first few MMO's were.
Want to talk differences with WoW, besides graphics, setting or atmosphere? Ok, out of the top of my head:
- AoC: siege warfare, guildcities, cinematic questing, melee combat (directional, combos, fatalities) and, to a lesser degree hybrid class focus (a small thing, but it made playing a number of classes a lot different from WoW class gameplay)
- LotrO: book quests, MVP, a lot more roleplay focus in towns of player houses, guild houses, social clothing tab, and player made ingame music
- Aion: flying/gliding, aerial combat, siege warfare, interesting and different RvR via territory control PvP and invasion PvP
I'm not going to mention MMO's like CO, DCUO or STO that are decidely different from WoW gameplay as much as that COX and Planetside were different from an EQ or DAoC as MMO's. Neither am I going to mention games like FFXIV or Xsyon, since I'm guessing you're only looking at the top AAA MMO's.
But even in those, while having similarities to WoW in gameplay, there are also differences in core gameplay aspects that are present.
edit:
I forgot, Rift in the list. Rift has some gameplay features that are different from WoW as well, even very different from WoW in one of its core gameplay aspect, namely the rift PvE content. That's a major different kind of leveling than the traditional quest leveling, and also more player teamwork minded.
As for other upcoming MMO's, I'd find it strange if you weren't able to acknowledge the major different kind of gameplay that MMO's like GW2, TSW, Firefall or ArcheAge have to offer, because if so, I'd really be wondering what it is you're looking for in an MMORPG.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
And yet the vast majority of difference you've listed are cosmetic tacked on differences, or not really different at all (clothing tab and book quests, I mean really?) And yes, AoC's "siege" warfare may have been nice if it hadn't been tacked on as an afterthought. As it is now, its far inferior to an MMO that came out 9 years earlier than it, and the primary focus of the game isn't based around it. I wanted to like AoC but I couldn't stomach the moronic WoW quests for more than an hour. They had me gathering bricks. Not only did they mark the bricks on my map, but they SPARKLED. Nothing about that is "cinematic".
I think your real problem is with quest leveling: any game that has quest leveling, it seems you can't stomach, no matter what else they have to offer.
In my former post I added Rift, which has a different path of leveling, as well as other upcoming MMO's that are significantly different in gameplay features. I didn't see the differences I listed for the current MMO's as cosmetic, and I sure as hell don't see the differences of the upcoming MMO's as merely cosmetic.
Oh, btw, siege warfare and invasion PvP isn't "tacked on" in Aion, it's core gameplay that you almost can't avoid even if you want to. Aion might not be your type of RvR MMO because of other reasons, it still offers it in its own unique way.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
It's the "King" because of it's established, in-depth game play. Just look at all the features; raiding, BGs, Arena, valor/justice point system rewards, factions, proffesions ect ect. It's highly developed and the uniqueness is the quality it has which no game has yet to be on par with. No I'm not a WoW player, quite and gonna remain so, however not acknowledging their position is just plain ignorant.
Tired of the "Demise of WoW" threads or comparisons to it. WoW is gonna be the king of MMOs unless some drastically rennovating game comes along which there is none, and don't make me laugh by saying SWTOR is. SWTOR uses the same formula as WoW who used the same formula as EQ and so on and so forth but with some added features but nothing all that drastic.
While GW2 does seen the most rennovating game upcoming, however it's not enough as ANet is limiting themselves by staying as a casual friendly MMO and not including elements that WoW/SWTOR/Rift has 10+ raiding and non-cosmetic gear drops.
I was responding to the qouted part about pulling millions of players from WoW, that is where they failed. However WoW is getting old so Bioware might have the time on their side...
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