Collective value is the name - the concept is that like minded people with common goals group together. These grouping has value and increases the value their goal.
Anarchy is not the absence of aggression - it is the absence of cohesiver order.
Order is an arrangement or disposition of people or things in relation to each other according to a particular sequence, pattern, or method. It's a condition of logical or comprehensible arrangement among the separate elements . Because there is an arrangement - the arrangement has rules founded by a group based on the groups value - the cohesive order.
Venge
By your definition of anarchy, that being the lack of "cohesive order", we are always in a state of anarchy since there is no universal cohesion. What is the difference between order and cohesive order? Is there such a thing as uncohesive order?
No that is not correct. By and large the majority of people living in a population agree to certain rules. Those rules provide the order. More often than not those rules come with a punishment - that would be your govenment arguement. However whether there is a government or not we still agree to live by these rules, ones that do not are ostracized in some way.
Actually there is such as thing as uncohesive order. This is an order that exists when two things are moving against each but still have a common effect.
Polar molecules like water useuncohesive order where the distance between the molecules are constantly shrinking and expanding based on the molecules around it. So the molecule is both pushing and pulling - allowing it to be both malleable and providing tension.
Order is just any pattern or sequence of arragment. Cohesion is the resultant of the forces acting on the group to remain together - that could be forced or it could be mutual survival. So a cohesive order would than be the forces acting ona group to remain together in specific arrangement, pattern, method....
edit:
e.g cohesion - wanting to band together to get all the fields cleared in an area before harvest.
Order - starting with this field and then moving to another, or one group does this area, another does this area...
I see what you are saying, but I think you were too quick to dismiss my criticism of the concept. That being, at one level of abstraction or another, the world is always in a state of anarchy (according to your definition). There is never universal cohesion. Even on things that most agree on, such as murder = bad, there is always someone that views it differently and thus breaks the cohesion. If cohesion is not to mean everyone involved, then it is not possible to attain, as those that are forced to participate are put in a state of discohesion.
Collective value is the name - the concept is that like minded people with common goals group together. These grouping has value and increases the value their goal.
Anarchy is not the absence of aggression - it is the absence of cohesiver order.
Order is an arrangement or disposition of people or things in relation to each other according to a particular sequence, pattern, or method. It's a condition of logical or comprehensible arrangement among the separate elements . Because there is an arrangement - the arrangement has rules founded by a group based on the groups value - the cohesive order.
Venge
By your definition of anarchy, that being the lack of "cohesive order", we are always in a state of anarchy since there is no universal cohesion. What is the difference between order and cohesive order? Is there such a thing as uncohesive order?
No that is not correct. By and large the majority of people living in a population agree to certain rules. Those rules provide the order. More often than not those rules come with a punishment - that would be your govenment arguement. However whether there is a government or not we still agree to live by these rules, ones that do not are ostracized in some way.
Actually there is such as thing as uncohesive order. This is an order that exists when two things are moving against each but still have a common effect.
Polar molecules like water useuncohesive order where the distance between the molecules are constantly shrinking and expanding based on the molecules around it. So the molecule is both pushing and pulling - allowing it to be both malleable and providing tension.
Order is just any pattern or sequence of arragment. Cohesion is the resultant of the forces acting on the group to remain together - that could be forced or it could be mutual survival. So a cohesive order would than be the forces acting ona group to remain together in specific arrangement, pattern, method....
edit:
e.g cohesion - wanting to band together to get all the fields cleared in an area before harvest.
Order - starting with this field and then moving to another, or one group does this area, another does this area...
I see what you are saying, but I think you were too quick to dismiss my criticism of the concept. That being, at one level of abstraction or another, the world is always in a state of anarchy (according to your definition). There is never universal cohesion. Even on things that most agree on, such as murder = bad, there is always someone that views it differently and thus breaks the cohesion. If cohesion is not to mean everyone involved, then it is not possible to attain, as those that are forced to participate are put in a state of discohesion.
I generally agree. Order and chaos are not absolute concepts and in practice you will probably never find anything that is completely one or the other. There will always be the exceptions on both sides.
Neither order or anarchy are completely possible to attain and probably shouldn't be - although that would make an interesting discussion on it's own.
Now I'm going to have to go read the thread because I can't remember why it is we started talking about this haha.
Venge
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
no that is in fact anarcy, the strong or peradter vs prey you are one or the other in other words choas. I know this will not change anyones mind, but it is still true. the reson that laws and govermants exsist at all is that people as a whole DO NOT LIke Choas. If you can point out were a anarcyic scoicty exisist then you will prove you point.
My falth, thow a philoshopifce argemant out and boom...that i apploige for.
Lulzsec is a bunch of script kids. They didn't hack or even take out the CIA website. They ddos'd a very public page of the Cia's .... a monkey could ddos a site.
In response the Cia brought The Jester into the game ... now Lulzsec is running scared. Stop giving the script kiddies more credit than they deserve ... they are nothing but a newage chatroom "hacker".
you know the old saying "you love to live dangersly" and "playing with matchies will get you burned" can we say "ouch" and 10 to 40 with bubba?
When you consider the financial cost of these idiots. I don't think there is really a sentence that could be given that would be strong enough.
I don't really care how they do what they do.. or if some place had strong enough security. Its relatively the same thing as someone busting into your house and trashing everything. Is it really your fault because someone can break a glass window.. Your stuff is still screwed up... they are going to pay to replace it. So either you or your insurance does and that cost you money regardless of the option.
Which is exactly the only thing they have accomplished. Harsh as it is to say... my personal feeling is they are a waste of oxygen and that problem should be solved.
I'm a web developer. I've created 100's of websites, some with reasonable traffic, others with hardly any.
All of them get 'attacked' almost constantly, usually email spammers trying to use my sites feedback forms to distribute unsolicited emails.
I have several servers and veiwing my server logs, every server is constantly being hit by people trying to access the ssh root login.
What I'm trying to get across to you is that this behaviour is rife on the Internet. Incarceration or fines are no deterrent to these people.
It's pointless putting the blame on 'hackers' or 'script kiddies'. Yes they're an inconvenience, but in these days where so much of our life revolves around the Internet and online services, isn't it time the service providors shoulder the responsibilty to ensure this type of thing doesn't happen?
no that is in fact anarcy, the strong or peradter vs prey you are one or the other in other words choas. I know this will not change anyones mind, but it is still true. the reson that laws and govermants exsist at all is that people as a whole DO NOT LIke Choas. If you can point out were a anarcyic scoicty exisist then you will prove you point.
My falth, thow a philoshopifce argemant out and boom...that i apploige for.
No. Your above is based on several fallacies. One, do you personally require someone standing there with a gun, to prevent you from harming others, or stealing their property? I personally do not, nor do most people. That being the case, why do you assume that in the absence of the presence of an army of occupation (which is what most police departments have devolved into these days) that others require that?
Second, anarchy simply means an absence of a coercive state. It does not have to mean an absence of order. Another way of saying anarchy is personal government. Just as most individuals do not need others to impose order on them, personal interactions of goods and services also follow the same pattern. Markets work much more effectively in the absence of coercion.
In fact, it is the distortion (and suppression...) of information that makes "managed" markets so much less effective than free markets. Much of the fraud and distortion involved in many market sectors is aided and abetted by government and its power.
Its interesting that you mention your last. Look at this.
What makes an anarchy impractical at this point in time? The simple, brutal reality of statist power. When the state can steal resources from millions(or hundreds of millions) and then direct those resources to its own ends, thats a GREAT deal of power. But might does NOT make right. Simply because one *can* do a thing, does NOT mean that one *should* do that thing.
Which ties into the hacking incidents. Simply because one *can* "hack" into some of these networks, or web pages or such, doesn't mean that one *should* do so. Basic critical thinking, judgement and principles should guild ones actions.
Where are you getting your definition of anarchy from?
Here you will likely find much more than you ever wanted to know. ^^ My personal philosphy tends towards indvidualist anarchy, with anarcho capitalism as an *economic* consequence of that. But there are quite a large number of various types(as one might expect with the focus involved).
You might also examine this. Many of the followers of the Zero Aggression Principle(ZAP) L. Neil Smith's version, also tend to be individualist anarchists.
Look anarcy has all ways FAILLED, All is realy is the let me do my onw thing, which is fine UNTILL your thing runs over/into my thing. Or as was said tho by who i do not remember at this time, your right to swing your fist ends at my nose. The anarcys dose not care what happosn to others only his onw self matters. Thos warlords/thugs take and kill at will. Now all i can say is if you dont want governants, laws, rules or thoght of others then find, but most will so I think not. And logic is fine and good but it does not always prove to be right when deling with were are not anarcy is good.
When you look at history you find anarcy ALL WAYS destorys, it never builds anything but graveyards. It starts as meany wars as govermants have. Anarcy tears down civllations and peoples and citys. Look to the record of history, use the scorce documents and look. If you like war and death and flame and blood you will love anracry. It has alway produced such and will allways do so.
yes you are talking about the phioloshy of anarcy, not what it does in real life to real lives, that is were i tend to look, not at abstracts but the blood and death it couses in real life not in ivery tower desscions. In theory you can make sound good but actions DO speak loader than words.
Look anarcy has all ways FAILLED, All is realy is the let me do my onw thing, which is fine UNTILL your thing runs over/into my thing. Or as was said tho by who i do not remember at this time, your right to swing your fist ends at my nose. The anarcys dose not care what happosn to others only his onw self matters. Thos warlords/thugs take and kill at will. Now all i can say is if you dont want governants, laws, rules or thoght of others then find, but most will so I think not. And logic is fine and good but it does not always prove to be right when deling with were are not anarcy is good.
When you look at history you find anarcy ALL WAYS destorys, it never builds anything but graveyards. It starts as meany wars as govermants have. Anarcy tears down civllations and peoples and citys. Look to the record of history, use the scorce documents and look. If you like war and death and flame and blood you will love anracry. It has alway produced such and will allways do so.
yes you are talking about the phioloshy of anarcy, not what it does in real life to real lives, that is were i tend to look, not at abstracts but the blood and death it couses in real life not in ivery tower desscions. In theory you can make sound good but actions DO speak loader than words.
Once again, you argue from fallacy. One example of that is the reality of power. Power takes three main forms. Violence, Wealth, Knowledge. Power tends to corrupt. Do you understand why? Because of the greater range of choices it offers, and also the more power one has, the less accountable for the use of that power one tends to be. Never make the mistake that individualist anarchists are pacifists. Most of us simply refuse to initate aggression. We have no problem what so ever with responding with what ever level of counter force a given situation warrants.
As for reality, one has only to look at history to see which philosphy(statism or anarchy) has filled the most grave yards, since just the rise of the nation state. Its been estimated that communism (only one type of statism) has been responsible for the death of more than 200 million people in the 20th century alone. Add up the others(different types of statism) and the total is much higher. So, you will have to forgive me if I don't share your regard for statism.
I don't think you understand my point. What I'm saying is that if the government can piss all these people off, and pretend it was someone else. They then can offer a solution that involves trading "just a little bit" of your freedom for a new sweeping internet reform.
This will get the gamers off there ass to vote. In the short term it will look like a great plan, and everyone will be happy because it got rid of those pesky hackers. Then when the reality sinks in, and the hidden stuff starts showing up, and screwing them worse than the hackers did they have nobody to blam but themselves, and their short sightedness. (Patriot act, healthcare (which will screw us all later))
Exactly this.
Its been nearly 50 years in the making, but enough young minds have been conditioned now to hand over their freedoms and feel good about it all the while being told how special they are for showing up and don't actually have to do anything to warrant that trophy. As one famous philosopher put it, he who sacrifices freedom for security will neither have nor enjoy either. People talk about chopping off arms for a internet hack while gleefully suspending their own civil rights and blinking dully when you say due process with the sum of their counter arguement being "lol, wut?". So long as they got their Monday Night Football and their gaming fix, don't bother them with the realities of how precarious their security and value of life really is.
They have been successfully conditioned to let anything go in the name of the public safety, and have blind trust in the benevolence of politicans so long they're of "their team", no matter how infamous both sides are for lies and self indulgence while making themselves exempt from all laws the citizens they rule must abide by. You think a Hacker is scum for depriving you of a few days of gameplay, yet think nothing of a con artist promising you buzz word slogans like "Change--Believe" while sending the country into dept 27x faster in less than two years than the entire history of the country and yet, its "that other guy's fault". And they all keep saying that don't they? Yeah...its change alright. And you're safe, nothing to worry about, they're smiling at you right? You can trust everything being transparent and accountable. Its all ok, go back to sleep, you're safe, no need to engage the brain and think about voting intelligently. Just believe.
In truth, I envy them this blissful state of utter ignorance and stupidity, to be aware and seeing the truth of things is more a curse. No one will listen or care till they themselves are victims, and by then, its too late. We live in the information age, and yet we can't be bothered to learn anything. Ironic no?
Even peace may be purchased at too high a price, and the only time you are completely safe is when you lie in the grave.
I'm a web developer. I've created 100's of websites, some with reasonable traffic, others with hardly any.
All of them get 'attacked' almost constantly, usually email spammers trying to use my sites feedback forms to distribute unsolicited emails.
I have several servers and veiwing my server logs, every server is constantly being hit by people trying to access the ssh root login.
What I'm trying to get across to you is that this behaviour is rife on the Internet. Incarceration or fines are no deterrent to these people.
It's pointless putting the blame on 'hackers' or 'script kiddies'. Yes they're an inconvenience, but in these days where so much of our life revolves around the Internet and online services, isn't it time the service providors shoulder the responsibilty to ensure this type of thing doesn't happen?
If you are experienced with websites, you shouldn't have asked the question about service providers shouldering the responsibility to ensure this type of things doesn't happen. You should already know by now that it happens and there is very little service providers can do to prevent it from happening. There is very little system administrators can do to secure their web servers. You can have all software up to date, have a firewall setup to be as secure as possible. But the nature of websites & server environment are that they will still be vulnerable.
Why do you think they even have patches for server softwares, scripts, and such? Because hackers find holes. You patch the holes, they find more holes. It's just the nature of having software ONLINE. It's also a nature of people wanting good looking interactive websites that aren't boring. So you as a web developer are forced to provide PHP, flash, links to social media, utilize 3rd party apps such as google analytics for tracking, etc etc.. The more things you add to your website, the more vulnerable your websites are. So no matter how you put it, there's a risk factor involved, and I believe sometimes people ask for it by the things they put on the websites.
ok having helped clarify why these responses are so frequent now i want to talk about something else.
the reponse some of you have had.
sitting there in your chair ragenerding because you cant play a video game. talking about chopping off people's hands, executing them, taking their lives from them. simply because it inconvienienced you.
ok firstly, nobody posting in this thread is important. nobody in your rl lives thinks youre important, nobody on the internet does either. you cant play a game right now deal with it. people do not deserve to have their lives taken away from them for something like this.
the real reason this whole thing is even possible is the outsourcing of our it administration on a global scale.
when british it people were taking care of british it, american it people were taking care of american it, and so so on and so forth. these attacks werent nearly as easy to do.
but when we started outsourcing it security to firms out of india and china, all of a sudden, it seemed like every firewall was made out of wet notebook paper. this isnt a coincidence. most "level 2" it techs you speak to are complete morons that only know how to spam words into a database and wait for a response. they have no real idea how the internet, nor a computer works. all in the name of "cheaper labor"
if these companies had hired real it people and security experts in the first place, none of this would have happened.
lastly if they had their own people and they still got hacked, thats what they get for hiring idiots. its easy to stay away from shit like this. make sure you patch every security patch, test the security of your network on a constant basis, and fix security holes you find on a day to day, ongoing basis.
if the internet is your business, you should treat it as such. rather than scratch your head and cry like a baby when your network gets hacked because you didnt spend what you needed to spend in order to take care of it.
People like you make me laugh. You do understand that no matter how well you setup your security it will never be hack proof. NEVER. PERIOD.
I dont care if you are the smartest man alive, your secruity will get hacked.
Outsourcing has little to nothing to do with this at all. In house IT or remote IT will not stop a hacker, Hackers have the advanage just like criminals have the advanage.
Computer Security is a cat and mouse game, the mouse are the hackers and the security software/firewall/ IT persons are the cat.
Also keep in mind that all security software and firewall software are sold to anyone that wants to buy them which means a hacker can buy your security system and learn to hack it.
Please before you post again, use common sense, I know that is asking alot from people like you but please do us this favor.
I'm a web developer. I've created 100's of websites, some with reasonable traffic, others with hardly any.
All of them get 'attacked' almost constantly, usually email spammers trying to use my sites feedback forms to distribute unsolicited emails.
I have several servers and veiwing my server logs, every server is constantly being hit by people trying to access the ssh root login.
What I'm trying to get across to you is that this behaviour is rife on the Internet. Incarceration or fines are no deterrent to these people.
It's pointless putting the blame on 'hackers' or 'script kiddies'. Yes they're an inconvenience, but in these days where so much of our life revolves around the Internet and online services, isn't it time the service providors shoulder the responsibilty to ensure this type of thing doesn't happen?
Mr Web Developer, please drop some wisdom on us. How does one ensure this type of thing doesn't happen? Considering nothing is 100% secured period. No security is flawless or hack proof. Nothing to do with the internet is secure or safe or can it be made safe.
The most popular security software programs are very easy to get a copy of and make your own private network and sit and learn how to break it. You know how I know this, this is how we test Network security system for the company I work. When its time for us to get a new one, we create a developer network and try hacking into it with all the ways that we know.
Please get this thought your heads, COMPUTER SECURITY IS NOT AND NEVER WILL BE 100% secure. PERIOD. No matter how much knowlege you have, or how much money you can throw at it, your computer security is hackable.
Please stop blaming the companies, you act like these companies just put a computer on the internet with no security in place. Wake up, use common sense. I am willing to bet that SONY has millions upon millions of dollars invested in their security system and it can still be hacked.
Microsoft the software giant has been hacked and are you going to tell me that Microsoft must have bad security setup?
in that you are wrong, I used History not logic, what happoed is what happoned, and logic does not change what happons, Note i said ivory tower discssions say one thing REALTILY says something else. LOOK AT THE SCORCE DOCUMENTS of history and you will find something else. All the well I am for or against does not change the fact that the theory is flawed. again LOOK at the scorece Docs of history and you will find anarcy a faller that leads to blood and death. In thery commisson is much better than captism but in realy it falled and broth death and repestion, For a good look at it read Krichiefs autobioarghiy. any way theory does not all ways work in real life and that is the case of anarcy and history allways tells that story.
So saying my logic is bad is invalled when the real world says otherwise, and the real world always falles anarcy each time and that is a fact that locgic cant not refite.
I am speaking form the REAL wrold not theory, becouse we live in a real hard bloody world not a Ivory tower world. Look even the best polical therys must work in the real world if it deos not then it is just a wast and arancy is that it wastes lives, goods, lands, and the souls of those what live throw it. All the theory in the world does not change that. and it is the peaole that have to live in anracy that suffer. So that is what you have to think of, not that all or most anarchs are peacefull and most maybe, but not the ones who have the guns and the desire to take what they want, fact not Ivroy tower theory is what i speak form. Like i said read the histroy docs, read the scorce docs and you will see the truth chaos herts and killls anarcy is chaos.
So why in all of history has anarcy all ways failed, and where it does exist poeple die, blood flows, buidings burn and poeple starve? yes this can happon in a state also, but states allways come back why is that? maybe poaple do not like chaos, poaple all ways perfuer a govenment to protect there lives, loved ones,goods, lands, and homes over anarcy. Realty all ways trumps theory. and that you do not aswsure realty..the week reed of logic fails in this case and is the sad fact.
and anarcy does not kill?? even before the nation state anarcy was hated and feared becouse of the death and loss it coused, Old Egyth and Greece bouth feared it as did Rome and the kingdons of the midevil world, So did China, all of those predate the modern nation state, like i said History ALL ways fails anarcy in all ages of time and palces of the world. Stateisn has nothing to do with it.
If you read the historys u will find that ALL peoples fear it, even hunter/gather groups fear it. So even before states even when there was only tribes of 50 to 100 or so anarchy was feard and hated. So it was and so it is today, all you have to do is look..LOOK at the world where Anarcchy is and you will see why. i did not state that states was the ansure YOU make that leap ALL i said was and still do say is that ararchy leads to death and suffering and people most people do not want anrachy.
I dont think i can make you see that, all i can say is i have stuided to much history and lived to long not to know that you are worng, but i see that you are a true beliver, well lets us say each to his own ideas and the world has its way to prove who is right. So time will tell will it not?
in that you are wrong, I used History not logic, what happoed is what happoned, and logic does not change what happons, Note i said ivory tower discssions say one thing REALTILY says something else. LOOK AT THE SCORCE DOCUMENTS of history and you will find something else. All the well I am for or against does not change the fact that the theory is flawed. again LOOK at the scorece Docs of history and you will find anarcy a faller that leads to blood and death. In thery commisson is much better than captism but in realy it falled and broth death and repestion, For a good look at it read Krichiefs autobioarghiy. any way theory does not all ways work in real life and that is the case of anarcy and history allways tells that story.
So saying my logic is bad is invalled when the real world says otherwise, and the real world always falles anarcy each time and that is a fact that locgic cant not refite.
I am speaking form the REAL wrold not theory, becouse we live in a real hard bloody world not a Ivory tower world. Look even the best polical therys must work in the real world if it deos not then it is just a wast and arancy is that it wastes lives, goods, lands, and the souls of those what live throw it. All the theory in the world does not change that. and it is the peaole that have to live in anracy that suffer. So that is what you have to think of, not that all or most anarchs are peacefull and most maybe, but not the ones who have the guns and the desire to take what they want, fact not Ivroy tower theory is what i speak form. Like i said read the histroy docs, read the scorce docs and you will see the truth chaos herts and killls anarcy is chaos.
So why in all of history has anarcy all ways failed, and where it does exist poeple die, blood flows, buidings burn and poeple starve? yes this can happon in a state also, but states allways come back why is that? maybe poaple do not like chaos, poaple all ways perfuer a govenment to protect there lives, loved ones,goods, lands, and homes over anarcy. Realty all ways trumps theory. and that you do not aswsure realty..the week reed of logic fails in this case and is the sad fact.
and anarcy does not kill?? even before the nation state anarcy was hated and feared becouse of the death and loss it coused, Old Egyth and Greece bouth feared it as did Rome and the kingdons of the midevil world, So did China, all of those predate the modern nation state, like i said History ALL ways fails anarcy in all ages of time and palces of the world. Stateisn has nothing to do with it.
If you read the historys u will find that ALL peoples fear it, even hunter/gather groups fear it. So even before states even when there was only tribes of 50 to 100 or so anarchy was feard and hated. So it was and so it is today, all you have to do is look..LOOK at the world where Anarcchy is and you will see why. i did not state that states was the ansure YOU make that leap ALL i said was and still do say is that ararchy leads to death and suffering and people most people do not want anrachy.
I dont think i can make you see that, all i can say is i have stuided to much history and lived to long not to know that you are worng, but i see that you are a true beliver, well lets us say each to his own ideas and the world has its way to prove who is right. So time will tell will it not?
When trying to participate in a debate, you have to do two things:
Communicate effectively. If you are doing this verbally, you have to have fluent command of the language and use as little slang as possible. If you are using the written word, grammar and spelling is essential. Your posts are very difficult to follow due to your disregard of a useful tool called a spell checker. No matter how valid your thoughts, excessive mispelling diminish the worth of them when presented in the written form, to the point of being disregarded.
When claiming to rely on fact, present the facts themselves, not your opinion of the facts, especially when you claim to operate from life experiences instead of classroom theorizing.
I'd enter into a debate about anarchy, chaos, and social order, but I can't decode what you're saying enough to not enter a merry go round of 'that's not what I meant'. When you say things things like "Scorce Docs" and "Commission vs Captism", what do you mean? No, don't answer that, its a rhetorical question to illustrate a point.
I did get one little sliver of what you were trying to say, when you said that anarchy leads to death and suffering. Yes, it can. So does Totalitarianism. Stalin and Kim Jong II along with many other tyrants all impose absolute order on their respective citizens. Anarchy or Totalitarianism in both cases, assert their wants on the weak, one is total order, the other is total lack of it. Being such a student of history as you claim to be, at 60 years old, even in a modest sized city of some 30k people in Alabama, you've seen the history of what these two examples inflicted in the name of social order as "they kept chaos at bay".
However thats not what is largely being discussed, its the nature of internet security and the consequences for those who trespass onto the data systems of others, and how much of your freedom you're willing to sacrifice for the illusion of security. Privacy is already a illusion, so is what few remaining freedoms and rights you have left, all in the name of Order and public safety. I'm not a anarchist, but I'm not a cringing daisy hoping Big Brother will save me either. I feel it is your responsibility to protect yourself, just as its your responsibility to educate yourself, and hoping that "They" will be benevolent saints is in my not so humble opinion, living in a ivory tower of theory and not harsh reality.
Even peace may be purchased at too high a price, and the only time you are completely safe is when you lie in the grave.
Doesn't EVE support a culture of hacking? I mean, they take no action when somebody hacks into ventrillos, corporation websites, and stuff that players do against each other. In fact, one might say that the nature of the game environment CCP created encourages it.
Now this isn't to excuse what happened to them, mind you. But don't you think that perhaps CCP's refusal to police hacking--when done between its players--contributed to this hack on them?
__________________________ "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it." --Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints." --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls." --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
Doesn't EVE support a culture of hacking? I mean, they take no action when somebody hacks into ventrillos, corporation websites, and stuff that players do against each other. In fact, one might say that the nature of the game environment CCP created encourages it.
Now this isn't to excuse what happened to them, mind you. But don't you think that perhaps CCP's refusal to police hacking--when done between its players--contributed to this hack on them?
CCP does not = Ventrilo or any other websites & servers.
What exactly are they supposed to be doing about sites & servers that they are not in charge of in any way? CCP can do something about them hacking CCP, and nothing else. If someones Vent or website gets hacked, that is Flagship or the site owner/hosts issue.
Theyre "refusal to police" is like you asking the police in America to go enforce the law in China.
sorry but it it was started a few pages/days back. and thank you for the post that you prescented, and i do ask one question to you and the is Where is the spell checker you talked about?? as it does not popup for me, and this is a frustion u can not even >unless you are a dislexitc< understand at all. So how do i get this spell checker to work?
Unfortunately MMORPG.COM does not have a spell checker as part of their forum toolset (which always struck me as odd given how many other tools it has, think more people would enjoy a spellchecker over say sub/super script but maybe I'm odd that way). There are a number of ways you can access a spellchecker for free, depending on your preferances. Some of them are a little clunky unfortunately. One is to install a spell checker into your internet browser, for example:
If you're a Internet Explorer user, I'll assume you're at least using IE-7, in which case you can download and install this for free:
It is a suite of tools through google adding a toolbar across the top of your browser. Once you use google, you never ungoogle because its that user friendly. If you use Firefox or Chrome, both of them you can do something similiar for, use a search and type "free spell checker for " and then look at the options and choose which you like best.
However if you don't like installing addons to your browser, there are free word processors that you can download and install that come with a spell checker. Its a bit more cumbersome, as you have to type your thoughts into the word processor, spell check when you're done, then copy the text and then paste it in the forum of your choice. Again, depends on what you have already, if you have MS Word as part of your pc software bundle, fire it up. If you don't have a word processor installed, I recommend Google Docs (here's a video link that gives you a idea what it can do (http://www.youtube.com/docs#p/u/4/sPymmJpTHJo) My personal recommendation is to use a browser addon as suggested above, even though there are scary pop ups that shout at you "DO YOU REALLY WANT TO INSTALL THIS???" that's just Microsoft being...Microsoft. Again it depends on your browser, but if you're using IE-7, I highly recommend the download from CNET.
Comments
I see what you are saying, but I think you were too quick to dismiss my criticism of the concept. That being, at one level of abstraction or another, the world is always in a state of anarchy (according to your definition). There is never universal cohesion. Even on things that most agree on, such as murder = bad, there is always someone that views it differently and thus breaks the cohesion. If cohesion is not to mean everyone involved, then it is not possible to attain, as those that are forced to participate are put in a state of discohesion.
I generally agree. Order and chaos are not absolute concepts and in practice you will probably never find anything that is completely one or the other. There will always be the exceptions on both sides.
Neither order or anarchy are completely possible to attain and probably shouldn't be - although that would make an interesting discussion on it's own.
Now I'm going to have to go read the thread because I can't remember why it is we started talking about this haha.
Venge
no that is in fact anarcy, the strong or peradter vs prey you are one or the other in other words choas. I know this will not change anyones mind, but it is still true. the reson that laws and govermants exsist at all is that people as a whole DO NOT LIke Choas. If you can point out were a anarcyic scoicty exisist then you will prove you point.
My falth, thow a philoshopifce argemant out and boom...that i apploige for.
This been posted yet? http://technolog.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/06/15/6868568-hacking-group-lulzsec-says-it-takes-out-cia-website I'm sure it has. I just don't feel like reading the whole thread hehe. These guys are going after bigger things than games now. I'm sure messing with the CIA will equal more than just a little fine)
you know the old saying "you love to live dangersly" and "playing with matchies will get you burned" can we say "ouch" and 10 to 40 with bubba?
Lulzsec is a bunch of script kids. They didn't hack or even take out the CIA website. They ddos'd a very public page of the Cia's .... a monkey could ddos a site.
In response the Cia brought The Jester into the game ... now Lulzsec is running scared. Stop giving the script kiddies more credit than they deserve ... they are nothing but a newage chatroom "hacker".
When you consider the financial cost of these idiots. I don't think there is really a sentence that could be given that would be strong enough.
I don't really care how they do what they do.. or if some place had strong enough security. Its relatively the same thing as someone busting into your house and trashing everything. Is it really your fault because someone can break a glass window.. Your stuff is still screwed up... they are going to pay to replace it. So either you or your insurance does and that cost you money regardless of the option.
Which is exactly the only thing they have accomplished. Harsh as it is to say... my personal feeling is they are a waste of oxygen and that problem should be solved.
I'm a web developer. I've created 100's of websites, some with reasonable traffic, others with hardly any.
All of them get 'attacked' almost constantly, usually email spammers trying to use my sites feedback forms to distribute unsolicited emails.
I have several servers and veiwing my server logs, every server is constantly being hit by people trying to access the ssh root login.
What I'm trying to get across to you is that this behaviour is rife on the Internet. Incarceration or fines are no deterrent to these people.
It's pointless putting the blame on 'hackers' or 'script kiddies'. Yes they're an inconvenience, but in these days where so much of our life revolves around the Internet and online services, isn't it time the service providors shoulder the responsibilty to ensure this type of thing doesn't happen?
No. Your above is based on several fallacies. One, do you personally require someone standing there with a gun, to prevent you from harming others, or stealing their property? I personally do not, nor do most people. That being the case, why do you assume that in the absence of the presence of an army of occupation (which is what most police departments have devolved into these days) that others require that?
Second, anarchy simply means an absence of a coercive state. It does not have to mean an absence of order. Another way of saying anarchy is personal government. Just as most individuals do not need others to impose order on them, personal interactions of goods and services also follow the same pattern. Markets work much more effectively in the absence of coercion.
In fact, it is the distortion (and suppression...) of information that makes "managed" markets so much less effective than free markets. Much of the fraud and distortion involved in many market sectors is aided and abetted by government and its power.
Its interesting that you mention your last. Look at this.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Icelandic_Commonwealth
Also this.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_anarchist_communities
What makes an anarchy impractical at this point in time? The simple, brutal reality of statist power. When the state can steal resources from millions(or hundreds of millions) and then direct those resources to its own ends, thats a GREAT deal of power. But might does NOT make right. Simply because one *can* do a thing, does NOT mean that one *should* do that thing.
Which ties into the hacking incidents. Simply because one *can* "hack" into some of these networks, or web pages or such, doesn't mean that one *should* do so. Basic critical thinking, judgement and principles should guild ones actions.
As an aside ... Wraithone :
Where are you getting your definition of anarchy from?
Here you will likely find much more than you ever wanted to know. ^^ My personal philosphy tends towards indvidualist anarchy, with anarcho capitalism as an *economic* consequence of that. But there are quite a large number of various types(as one might expect with the focus involved).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchism
You might also examine this. Many of the followers of the Zero Aggression Principle(ZAP) L. Neil Smith's version, also tend to be individualist anarchists.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-aggression_principle
L. Neil Smith's take on some of these issues.
http://down-with-power.com/
Look anarcy has all ways FAILLED, All is realy is the let me do my onw thing, which is fine UNTILL your thing runs over/into my thing. Or as was said tho by who i do not remember at this time, your right to swing your fist ends at my nose. The anarcys dose not care what happosn to others only his onw self matters. Thos warlords/thugs take and kill at will. Now all i can say is if you dont want governants, laws, rules or thoght of others then find, but most will so I think not. And logic is fine and good but it does not always prove to be right when deling with were are not anarcy is good.
When you look at history you find anarcy ALL WAYS destorys, it never builds anything but graveyards. It starts as meany wars as govermants have. Anarcy tears down civllations and peoples and citys. Look to the record of history, use the scorce documents and look. If you like war and death and flame and blood you will love anracry. It has alway produced such and will allways do so.
yes you are talking about the phioloshy of anarcy, not what it does in real life to real lives, that is were i tend to look, not at abstracts but the blood and death it couses in real life not in ivery tower desscions. In theory you can make sound good but actions DO speak loader than words.
Once again, you argue from fallacy. One example of that is the reality of power. Power takes three main forms. Violence, Wealth, Knowledge. Power tends to corrupt. Do you understand why? Because of the greater range of choices it offers, and also the more power one has, the less accountable for the use of that power one tends to be. Never make the mistake that individualist anarchists are pacifists. Most of us simply refuse to initate aggression. We have no problem what so ever with responding with what ever level of counter force a given situation warrants.
As for reality, one has only to look at history to see which philosphy(statism or anarchy) has filled the most grave yards, since just the rise of the nation state. Its been estimated that communism (only one type of statism) has been responsible for the death of more than 200 million people in the 20th century alone. Add up the others(different types of statism) and the total is much higher. So, you will have to forgive me if I don't share your regard for statism.
Exactly this.
Its been nearly 50 years in the making, but enough young minds have been conditioned now to hand over their freedoms and feel good about it all the while being told how special they are for showing up and don't actually have to do anything to warrant that trophy. As one famous philosopher put it, he who sacrifices freedom for security will neither have nor enjoy either. People talk about chopping off arms for a internet hack while gleefully suspending their own civil rights and blinking dully when you say due process with the sum of their counter arguement being "lol, wut?". So long as they got their Monday Night Football and their gaming fix, don't bother them with the realities of how precarious their security and value of life really is.
They have been successfully conditioned to let anything go in the name of the public safety, and have blind trust in the benevolence of politicans so long they're of "their team", no matter how infamous both sides are for lies and self indulgence while making themselves exempt from all laws the citizens they rule must abide by. You think a Hacker is scum for depriving you of a few days of gameplay, yet think nothing of a con artist promising you buzz word slogans like "Change--Believe" while sending the country into dept 27x faster in less than two years than the entire history of the country and yet, its "that other guy's fault". And they all keep saying that don't they? Yeah...its change alright. And you're safe, nothing to worry about, they're smiling at you right? You can trust everything being transparent and accountable. Its all ok, go back to sleep, you're safe, no need to engage the brain and think about voting intelligently. Just believe.
In truth, I envy them this blissful state of utter ignorance and stupidity, to be aware and seeing the truth of things is more a curse. No one will listen or care till they themselves are victims, and by then, its too late. We live in the information age, and yet we can't be bothered to learn anything. Ironic no?
Even peace may be purchased at too high a price, and the only time you are completely safe is when you lie in the grave.
If you are experienced with websites, you shouldn't have asked the question about service providers shouldering the responsibility to ensure this type of things doesn't happen. You should already know by now that it happens and there is very little service providers can do to prevent it from happening. There is very little system administrators can do to secure their web servers. You can have all software up to date, have a firewall setup to be as secure as possible. But the nature of websites & server environment are that they will still be vulnerable.
Why do you think they even have patches for server softwares, scripts, and such? Because hackers find holes. You patch the holes, they find more holes. It's just the nature of having software ONLINE. It's also a nature of people wanting good looking interactive websites that aren't boring. So you as a web developer are forced to provide PHP, flash, links to social media, utilize 3rd party apps such as google analytics for tracking, etc etc.. The more things you add to your website, the more vulnerable your websites are. So no matter how you put it, there's a risk factor involved, and I believe sometimes people ask for it by the things they put on the websites.
EQ1-AC1-DAOC-FFXI-L2-EQ2-WoW-DDO-GW-LoTR-VG-WAR-GW2-ESO
People like you make me laugh. You do understand that no matter how well you setup your security it will never be hack proof. NEVER. PERIOD.
I dont care if you are the smartest man alive, your secruity will get hacked.
Outsourcing has little to nothing to do with this at all. In house IT or remote IT will not stop a hacker, Hackers have the advanage just like criminals have the advanage.
Computer Security is a cat and mouse game, the mouse are the hackers and the security software/firewall/ IT persons are the cat.
Also keep in mind that all security software and firewall software are sold to anyone that wants to buy them which means a hacker can buy your security system and learn to hack it.
Please before you post again, use common sense, I know that is asking alot from people like you but please do us this favor.
Sooner or Later
Mr Web Developer, please drop some wisdom on us. How does one ensure this type of thing doesn't happen? Considering nothing is 100% secured period. No security is flawless or hack proof. Nothing to do with the internet is secure or safe or can it be made safe.
The most popular security software programs are very easy to get a copy of and make your own private network and sit and learn how to break it. You know how I know this, this is how we test Network security system for the company I work. When its time for us to get a new one, we create a developer network and try hacking into it with all the ways that we know.
Please get this thought your heads, COMPUTER SECURITY IS NOT AND NEVER WILL BE 100% secure. PERIOD. No matter how much knowlege you have, or how much money you can throw at it, your computer security is hackable.
Please stop blaming the companies, you act like these companies just put a computer on the internet with no security in place. Wake up, use common sense. I am willing to bet that SONY has millions upon millions of dollars invested in their security system and it can still be hacked.
Microsoft the software giant has been hacked and are you going to tell me that Microsoft must have bad security setup?
Sooner or Later
Thinking it is something worse is giving too much credit to the scriptkiddie lulsecs.
Little forum boys with their polished cyber toys: whine whine, boo-hoo, talk talk.
in that you are wrong, I used History not logic, what happoed is what happoned, and logic does not change what happons, Note i said ivory tower discssions say one thing REALTILY says something else. LOOK AT THE SCORCE DOCUMENTS of history and you will find something else. All the well I am for or against does not change the fact that the theory is flawed. again LOOK at the scorece Docs of history and you will find anarcy a faller that leads to blood and death. In thery commisson is much better than captism but in realy it falled and broth death and repestion, For a good look at it read Krichiefs autobioarghiy. any way theory does not all ways work in real life and that is the case of anarcy and history allways tells that story.
So saying my logic is bad is invalled when the real world says otherwise, and the real world always falles anarcy each time and that is a fact that locgic cant not refite.
I am speaking form the REAL wrold not theory, becouse we live in a real hard bloody world not a Ivory tower world. Look even the best polical therys must work in the real world if it deos not then it is just a wast and arancy is that it wastes lives, goods, lands, and the souls of those what live throw it. All the theory in the world does not change that. and it is the peaole that have to live in anracy that suffer. So that is what you have to think of, not that all or most anarchs are peacefull and most maybe, but not the ones who have the guns and the desire to take what they want, fact not Ivroy tower theory is what i speak form. Like i said read the histroy docs, read the scorce docs and you will see the truth chaos herts and killls anarcy is chaos.
So why in all of history has anarcy all ways failed, and where it does exist poeple die, blood flows, buidings burn and poeple starve? yes this can happon in a state also, but states allways come back why is that? maybe poaple do not like chaos, poaple all ways perfuer a govenment to protect there lives, loved ones,goods, lands, and homes over anarcy. Realty all ways trumps theory. and that you do not aswsure realty..the week reed of logic fails in this case and is the sad fact.
and anarcy does not kill?? even before the nation state anarcy was hated and feared becouse of the death and loss it coused, Old Egyth and Greece bouth feared it as did Rome and the kingdons of the midevil world, So did China, all of those predate the modern nation state, like i said History ALL ways fails anarcy in all ages of time and palces of the world. Stateisn has nothing to do with it.
If you read the historys u will find that ALL peoples fear it, even hunter/gather groups fear it. So even before states even when there was only tribes of 50 to 100 or so anarchy was feard and hated. So it was and so it is today, all you have to do is look..LOOK at the world where Anarcchy is and you will see why. i did not state that states was the ansure YOU make that leap ALL i said was and still do say is that ararchy leads to death and suffering and people most people do not want anrachy.
I dont think i can make you see that, all i can say is i have stuided to much history and lived to long not to know that you are worng, but i see that you are a true beliver, well lets us say each to his own ideas and the world has its way to prove who is right. So time will tell will it not?
When trying to participate in a debate, you have to do two things:
Communicate effectively. If you are doing this verbally, you have to have fluent command of the language and use as little slang as possible. If you are using the written word, grammar and spelling is essential. Your posts are very difficult to follow due to your disregard of a useful tool called a spell checker. No matter how valid your thoughts, excessive mispelling diminish the worth of them when presented in the written form, to the point of being disregarded.
When claiming to rely on fact, present the facts themselves, not your opinion of the facts, especially when you claim to operate from life experiences instead of classroom theorizing.
I'd enter into a debate about anarchy, chaos, and social order, but I can't decode what you're saying enough to not enter a merry go round of 'that's not what I meant'. When you say things things like "Scorce Docs" and "Commission vs Captism", what do you mean? No, don't answer that, its a rhetorical question to illustrate a point.
I did get one little sliver of what you were trying to say, when you said that anarchy leads to death and suffering. Yes, it can. So does Totalitarianism. Stalin and Kim Jong II along with many other tyrants all impose absolute order on their respective citizens. Anarchy or Totalitarianism in both cases, assert their wants on the weak, one is total order, the other is total lack of it. Being such a student of history as you claim to be, at 60 years old, even in a modest sized city of some 30k people in Alabama, you've seen the history of what these two examples inflicted in the name of social order as "they kept chaos at bay".
However thats not what is largely being discussed, its the nature of internet security and the consequences for those who trespass onto the data systems of others, and how much of your freedom you're willing to sacrifice for the illusion of security. Privacy is already a illusion, so is what few remaining freedoms and rights you have left, all in the name of Order and public safety. I'm not a anarchist, but I'm not a cringing daisy hoping Big Brother will save me either. I feel it is your responsibility to protect yourself, just as its your responsibility to educate yourself, and hoping that "They" will be benevolent saints is in my not so humble opinion, living in a ivory tower of theory and not harsh reality.
Even peace may be purchased at too high a price, and the only time you are completely safe is when you lie in the grave.
Doesn't EVE support a culture of hacking? I mean, they take no action when somebody hacks into ventrillos, corporation websites, and stuff that players do against each other. In fact, one might say that the nature of the game environment CCP created encourages it.
Now this isn't to excuse what happened to them, mind you. But don't you think that perhaps CCP's refusal to police hacking--when done between its players--contributed to this hack on them?
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
CCP does not = Ventrilo or any other websites & servers.
What exactly are they supposed to be doing about sites & servers that they are not in charge of in any way? CCP can do something about them hacking CCP, and nothing else. If someones Vent or website gets hacked, that is Flagship or the site owner/hosts issue.
Theyre "refusal to police" is like you asking the police in America to go enforce the law in China.
sorry but it it was started a few pages/days back. and thank you for the post that you prescented, and i do ask one question to you and the is Where is the spell checker you talked about?? as it does not popup for me, and this is a frustion u can not even >unless you are a dislexitc< understand at all. So how do i get this spell checker to work?
Drowelf;
Unfortunately MMORPG.COM does not have a spell checker as part of their forum toolset (which always struck me as odd given how many other tools it has, think more people would enjoy a spellchecker over say sub/super script but maybe I'm odd that way). There are a number of ways you can access a spellchecker for free, depending on your preferances. Some of them are a little clunky unfortunately. One is to install a spell checker into your internet browser, for example:
If you're a Internet Explorer user, I'll assume you're at least using IE-7, in which case you can download and install this for free:
http://download.cnet.com/Google-Toolbar-for-Internet-Explorer/3000-12512_4-10056938.html
It is a suite of tools through google adding a toolbar across the top of your browser. Once you use google, you never ungoogle because its that user friendly. If you use Firefox or Chrome, both of them you can do something similiar for, use a search and type "free spell checker for " and then look at the options and choose which you like best.
However if you don't like installing addons to your browser, there are free word processors that you can download and install that come with a spell checker. Its a bit more cumbersome, as you have to type your thoughts into the word processor, spell check when you're done, then copy the text and then paste it in the forum of your choice. Again, depends on what you have already, if you have MS Word as part of your pc software bundle, fire it up. If you don't have a word processor installed, I recommend Google Docs (here's a video link that gives you a idea what it can do (http://www.youtube.com/docs#p/u/4/sPymmJpTHJo) My personal recommendation is to use a browser addon as suggested above, even though there are scary pop ups that shout at you "DO YOU REALLY WANT TO INSTALL THIS???" that's just Microsoft being...Microsoft.
Again it depends on your browser, but if you're using IE-7, I highly recommend the download from CNET.
Or if you're feeling a little adventurerous, try Firefox or Chrome, Firefox 4 comes with a built in spell checker http://www.mozilla.com/en-US/firefox/new/, if you're wondering what sort of features that browser has, here's a link that will give you a run down on it http://www.mozilla.com/en-US/firefox/features/.
Even peace may be purchased at too high a price, and the only time you are completely safe is when you lie in the grave.
thank you very much that does help a lot, thank again.