More people played AFTER CU, so you "vets" need to just get over yourselves. This game sucked from the beginning, the updates helped but it was never a good game.
Of course EA and LA wouldn't want people to confuse SWTOR with this unfinished pile of garbage.
SWG saw a breif bump in population after the CU, due to former players checking out the changes to the game. Those folks didn't stick around, and many of the people playing prior to the CU decided to go with them. Beyond the bait and switch of the CURB to the CU, the CU broke several of the core game systems. The CU was almost to the point where most of what it broke was fixed when the NGE was announced (it still needed more work). The CU was a failure, but nowhere near the failure of the NGE.
More people played AFTER CU, so you "vets" need to just get over yourselves. This game sucked from the beginning, the updates helped but it was never a good game.
Of course EA and LA wouldn't want people to confuse SWTOR with this unfinished pile of garbage.
SWG saw a breif bump in population after the CU, due to former players checking out the changes to the game. Those folks didn't stick around, and many of the people playing prior to the CU decided to go with them. Beyond the bait and switch of the CURB to the CU, the CU broke several of the core game systems. The CU was almost to the point where most of what it broke was fixed when the NGE was announced (it still needed more work). The CU was a failure, but nowhere near the failure of the NGE.
Agreed. I played preCU & NGE and there were more servers and players then than ever. People keep posting the site with the interview with one of SWG former producers but I would not count that as fact. I played a few years back after CU & NGE and there were around 5 servers up. I remember when I played preCU & NGE there was upwards of 20 servers, so people can keep saying that NGE and the updates that followed helped the game but it really only helped it survive. The game would have survived just as long without it. Some of the reasons for NGE and CU was WoW had dropped and had 3x the subs nearly instantly. They were trying to mold SWG into a more friendly game so they could grab more subs and it failed.
well I loved this game from the start even with the bugs LOL warping lol "air chairs" even to this day I miss the old game before NGE !
To all the people that say "vets get over it "! Does it not show what the game meant to us that years after we are still talking about it and miss it?
Am not going to say that I am sad that this game is going to me and many more it died with the NGE and to all the people that play it now and tell VETS to get over it now you know how we felt after the NGE and am sorry you lost your game now
Welp, was only a matter of time. In my humble opinion, this game and what that fateful patch did to it will go down in video game infamy. The SOE bigwigs always think they know what we want and they are usually wrong. Those guys should consider writing a book titled: "How to ruin a game: Introduce Features no one Wanted and Alienating Your Playerbase in one Easy Step"
I recently reactivated my account, taking advatage of my free 45 days, after being away for 6 years (yeah 6 years!) and it was tough to play. I am glad I did get to play it again before it's gone. It was nice to hear that music again, and unpack my houses from data pad and check out all my artifacts. Unfortunately I could not stomach more than a few days of game time. It's just not that game I loved.
Pre NGE was the best time ever i have had in an mmo to date.
QFE for sure...
RIP SWG...Thanks for the memories...It was a blast at times...It broke my heart other times...But I made friends for life there...And that's good enough for me...
As bad as the NGE was, it has been confirmed the game was losing 10k subs a month prior to it happening. So while the NGE was an obvious fubar, the preNGE game wasnt doing very well either.
i already replied to this but i forgot to quote it so people would understand what i was talking about.
swg only lost sub at that rate after cu. before cu swg had the record number of subs out of any mmo at the time before wow.
This isnt remotely true at all.
SWG never approached EQ numbers. It sold close to it, but only 300k people subscribed at peak. About half of what EQ had at the time.
It released too early (Lucas Arts was the publisher so they were the ones that made that call) and was a mess. Essays were written on what was wrong with it. They did some work getting halfway decent content into the game, but things were pretty badly broken, and it wasnt enough.
I think it was the developer that posted on here for a few years that said that their acquisition rate was as expected, but their churn was horrendous (people were trying out the game, and not sticking with it). This was an era where MMOs showed growth over their first few years (and all the games that are considered highly successful do: EQ, WoW, EvE) and SWG never showed growth. Ever.
Yes, the CU was the beginning of the end in some ways, but it was a story that never moved forward in the first place. Crippled at the start due to early release, poor decisions made even before the CU. LA launched an advertising blitz after NGE, but where was this before it? The Jedi hologrind crap (its original implementation fo random profession grinding was the complete opposite of fun)...Lots of things that could have and should have been done differently before Lucas Arts told SoE the game wasnt star-warsy enough.
Then WoW launched, and shit hit the fan.
SWG was considered a failure before the NGE. Yes, it had a decent population but nowhere near what was expected. LA and SoE didnt ruin a great game, they ruined a bad game with great potential.
It still is pretty pathetic though, that after 6 years, a large percentage of people fail to open their eyes and instantly blame SoE for everything.
SoE never publicly threw LA under the bus, or vice versa. However SoE developers have given the 'just following orders' line when told they had to change the game. But no one ever singled which company the order came from.
But here is a quote from Smedley's blog in 2006 when he was discussing their hot new development project (lol), DCUO.
'It’s often frustrating to work with third party IP. There’s a constant battle over what the right direction is for the game, and from our own recent experience, it’s not something we enjoy. It very often puts handcuffs on what we can and can’t do and, frankly speaking, it’s a lot harder to make great games when the IP holders don’t understand the online gaming market.
The exception to this rule has been our relationship with the team at DC Comics."
Also, here is a quote from a Lucas Arts employee, Nancy McIntyre:
'We really needed to give people the experience of being Han Solo or Luke Skywalker rather than being Uncle Owen, the moisture farmer. We wanted more instant gratification: kill, get treasure, repeat. We needed to give people more of an opportunity to be a part of what they have seen in the movies rather than something they had created themselves'
Its just kind of ridiculous that with quotes like these out there people are quick to blame SoE for everything. Of course they had some blame, but its obvious from what information we have that Lucas Arts was all over this. And SoE did not have the final say. They can't do a single thing without LA approval.
It still is pretty pathetic though, that after 6 years, a large percentage of people fail to open their eyes and instantly blame SoE for everything.
SoE never publicly threw LA under the bus, or vice versa. However SoE developers have given the 'just following orders' line when told they had to change the game. But no one ever singled which company the order came from.
But here is a quote from Smedley's blog in 2006 when he was discussing their hot new development project (lol), DCUO.
'It’s often frustrating to work with third party IP. There’s a constant battle over what the right direction is for the game, and from our own recent experience, it’s not something we enjoy. It very often puts handcuffs on what we can and can’t do and, frankly speaking, it’s a lot harder to make great games when the IP holders don’t understand the online gaming market.
The exception to this rule has been our relationship with the team at DC Comics."
Also, here is a quote from a Lucas Arts employee, Nancy McIntyre:
'We really needed to give people the experience of being Han Solo or Luke Skywalker rather than being Uncle Owen, the moisture farmer. We wanted more instant gratification: kill, get treasure, repeat. We needed to give people more of an opportunity to be a part of what they have seen in the movies rather than something they had created themselves'
Its just kind of ridiculous that with quotes like these out there people are quick to blame SoE for everything. Of course they had some blame, but its obvious from what information we have that Lucas Arts was all over this. And SoE did not have the final say. They can't do a single thing without LA approval.
Personally I don't think it was all SOE's fault but at the same time LA didn't do it. Sure LA might have ordered it (thought there are blogs that disagree with that) but SOE instead of tring to put up a fight and supporting the game they had created themselves they just said yes master and did followed orders. They didn't tell the player base about it either. In fact they made promoses to fix that or put in this. Then they would do something out of left field.
I will not play a game with a cash shop ever again. A dev job should be to make the game better not make me pay so it sucks less.
It still is pretty pathetic though, that after 6 years, a large percentage of people fail to open their eyes and instantly blame SoE for everything.
SoE never publicly threw LA under the bus, or vice versa. However SoE developers have given the 'just following orders' line when told they had to change the game. But no one ever singled which company the order came from.
But here is a quote from Smedley's blog in 2006 when he was discussing their hot new development project (lol), DCUO.
'It’s often frustrating to work with third party IP. There’s a constant battle over what the right direction is for the game, and from our own recent experience, it’s not something we enjoy. It very often puts handcuffs on what we can and can’t do and, frankly speaking, it’s a lot harder to make great games when the IP holders don’t understand the online gaming market.
The exception to this rule has been our relationship with the team at DC Comics."
Also, here is a quote from a Lucas Arts employee, Nancy McIntyre:
'We really needed to give people the experience of being Han Solo or Luke Skywalker rather than being Uncle Owen, the moisture farmer. We wanted more instant gratification: kill, get treasure, repeat. We needed to give people more of an opportunity to be a part of what they have seen in the movies rather than something they had created themselves'
Its just kind of ridiculous that with quotes like these out there people are quick to blame SoE for everything. Of course they had some blame, but its obvious from what information we have that Lucas Arts was all over this. And SoE did not have the final say. They can't do a single thing without LA approval.
Oh sorry, I was not aware Lucasarts was in charge of game development, or community moderation, public relations, etc.
I am guessing you worked for either SOE or Lucasarts at the time and you are privy to some information that I am not aware of. Maybe LA was "all over it", but you don't really know, nor do I. The only thing I do know is that I was having a blast playing a game run by SOE, then I was not, so you will have to excuse me if I blame the company that developed the game for ruining it
Not saying that the game didn't have it's issues before the NGE, but had SOE worked on fixing those issues instead of redoing the game as they did we may not be seeing this announcement right now. One thing is for sure, because of the road they opted to take, we now know the ultimate course that put the game on.
Thanks to Raph Koster (I know you lurk here sometimes my man) and the original crew and original vision that gave me countless hours of fun and entertainment living in the Star Wars universe. Thanks also to all the people that took advantage of the great system that allowed each of you to create the persona that you've always wanted (especially when those persona's weren't of the "iconic" flavor) and thus enriching my game experience.
This needed to happen. I understand some will disagree, but it will indeed give some closure to those still burning with anger over the NGE and it adds a measurable amount of credibility to those of us (myself included) that, while not violently raging over the NGE, knew it was the wrong way to go.
Lesson: Be yourself and do it well. Don't try to flip midway and become something else.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Not saying that the game didn't have it's issues before the NGE, but had SOE worked on fixing those issues instead of redoing the game as they did we may not be seeing this announcement right now. One thing is for sure, because of the road they opted to take, we now know the ultimate course that put the game on.
Thanks to Raph Koster (I know you lurk here sometimes my man) and the original crew and original vision that gave me countless hours of fun and entertainment living in the Star Wars universe. Thanks also to all the people that took advantage of the great system that allowed each of you to create the persona that you've always wanted (especially when those persona's weren't of the "iconic" flavor) and thus enriching my game experience.
This needed to happen. I understand some will disagree, but it will indeed give some closure to those still burning with anger over the NGE and it adds a measurable amount of credibility to those of us (myself included) that, while not violently raging over the NGE, knew it was the wrong way to go.
Lesson: Be yourself and do it well. Don't try to flip midway and become something else.
But SW:TOR is the NGE 2.0.
I don't think the closing of SWG really changes anything. SW:TOR is still a representation of the mindset that killed Star Wars Galaxies.
Personally I don't think it was all SOE's fault but at the same time LA didn't do it. Sure LA might have ordered it (thought there are blogs that disagree with that) but SOE instead of tring to put up a fight and supporting the game they had created themselves they just said yes master and did followed orders. They didn't tell the player base about it either. In fact they made promoses to fix that or put in this. Then they would do something out of left field.
How do we know they didnt put up a fight?
Everyone makes these assumptions about whats going on beyond closed doors. We don't know the politics of the situation and its obviously not as simple as smedley said this or torres said that. We do know that some people did voice opinions against what was going on (the devleopers themselves told the bigwigs the iconic class sytem was a bad idea and would kill the playerbase). But we don't know exactly what went down and as long as SoE and LA are still partners we never will.
It still is pretty pathetic though, that after 6 years, a large percentage of people fail to open their eyes and instantly blame SoE for everything.
SoE never publicly threw LA under the bus, or vice versa. However SoE developers have given the 'just following orders' line when told they had to change the game. But no one ever singled which company the order came from.
But here is a quote from Smedley's blog in 2006 when he was discussing their hot new development project (lol), DCUO.
'It’s often frustrating to work with third party IP. There’s a constant battle over what the right direction is for the game, and from our own recent experience, it’s not something we enjoy. It very often puts handcuffs on what we can and can’t do and, frankly speaking, it’s a lot harder to make great games when the IP holders don’t understand the online gaming market.
The exception to this rule has been our relationship with the team at DC Comics."
Also, here is a quote from a Lucas Arts employee, Nancy McIntyre:
'We really needed to give people the experience of being Han Solo or Luke Skywalker rather than being Uncle Owen, the moisture farmer. We wanted more instant gratification: kill, get treasure, repeat. We needed to give people more of an opportunity to be a part of what they have seen in the movies rather than something they had created themselves'
Its just kind of ridiculous that with quotes like these out there people are quick to blame SoE for everything. Of course they had some blame, but its obvious from what information we have that Lucas Arts was all over this. And SoE did not have the final say. They can't do a single thing without LA approval.
Everyone who has made any comments on how the NGE came about has said that it was concieved at SOE. Jeff Freeman said so on the SWG vet forum on this site (and on a couple other forums). He explained that it originated with the idea to make a trial area for new players similar to EQ2's trial island. Alan Crosby (Brenlo) straight out answered a post on the official SWG forums asking if LEC forced the NGE, that no, SOE conceived and developed it. John Smedley has said a few times that it was SOE's idea. Former SWG dev "GreenMarine" made a post in the comments on the Broken Toys blog (from a post about Dan Rubenfield's blog post, the "OM NOM NOM" version) pointing the finger for the game's problems at the fact that the dev team was primarily systems designers and the SOE Producers (he specifically said the LEC ones were not a problem) believing they knew better than the playerbase what the playerbase wanted.
The quote by Nancy McIntyre was when she was the VP of marketing at LEC and she was repeating the marketing spin on the NGE.
The Smed's blog post about licensed IPs was about how many third party IP holder say "No" to ideas, hence the handcuffs metaphor. It was made to say how nice it was that Warner Brothers is a lot less restrictive whith their DC license and how it is easier to make a good game because of it. DCUO's success has proven that (/sarcasm).
SWG's many problems originated at SOE, but LEC did approve them. Given the fact that SOE was the only party of the two that had experience with MMOs, and the fact that most of the mistakes made with SWG have been made with all of SOE's other MMOs, the evidence weighs much higher in favor of SOe shouldering the blame for them.
Oh sorry, I was not aware Lucasarts was in charge of game development, or community moderation, public relations, etc.
I am guessing you worked for either SOE or Lucasarts at the time and you are privy to some information that I am not aware of. Maybe LA was "all over it", but you don't really know, nor do I. The only thing I do know is that I was having a blast playing a game run by SOE, then I was not, so you will have to excuse me if I blame the company that developed the game for ruining it
Yes, Lucas Arts was in charge of PR. It was their responisbility as publisher. They were the ones that spoke with the public after the NGE. Torres and McIntyre were out there making statements, not SoE, for the most part.
LA does have complete control over what goes in to the game. So while SoE are the developers, due to the fact that Star Wars is LA's property they had to get their ok for everything. Every last bug fix had to be signed off on.
This is stuff that has been confirmed and is not speculation.
Comments
SWG saw a breif bump in population after the CU, due to former players checking out the changes to the game. Those folks didn't stick around, and many of the people playing prior to the CU decided to go with them. Beyond the bait and switch of the CURB to the CU, the CU broke several of the core game systems. The CU was almost to the point where most of what it broke was fixed when the NGE was announced (it still needed more work). The CU was a failure, but nowhere near the failure of the NGE.
/tiphat SWG
one of my first mmos, I remember that I kept createing new acounts for the 14 day trial, good times..
I want LucasArts to take all the game assests from SWG and give them to Bioware to use as they wish for SWTOR.
Agreed. I played preCU & NGE and there were more servers and players then than ever. People keep posting the site with the interview with one of SWG former producers but I would not count that as fact. I played a few years back after CU & NGE and there were around 5 servers up. I remember when I played preCU & NGE there was upwards of 20 servers, so people can keep saying that NGE and the updates that followed helped the game but it really only helped it survive. The game would have survived just as long without it. Some of the reasons for NGE and CU was WoW had dropped and had 3x the subs nearly instantly. They were trying to mold SWG into a more friendly game so they could grab more subs and it failed.
Sub to me on YouTube @ http://www.youtube.com/user/JJJK29isGaming?feature=mhee
Pre NGE was the best time ever i have had in an mmo to date.
well I loved this game from the start even with the bugs LOL warping lol "air chairs" even to this day I miss the old game before NGE !
To all the people that say "vets get over it "! Does it not show what the game meant to us that years after we are still talking about it and miss it?
Am not going to say that I am sad that this game is going to me and many more it died with the NGE and to all the people that play it now and tell VETS to get over it now you know how we felt after the NGE and am sorry you lost your game now
Kebe Runningmoon Flurry server star league Guild
Oh, but don't forget! SOE still has the SW card in play.
http://www.clonewarsadventures.com/
I played SWG longer then any other MMO, I will miss all the good times.
Same thing here. . was planning to resub in a week when my 45 days ran out.
Wa min God! Se æx on min heafod is!
Welp, was only a matter of time. In my humble opinion, this game and what that fateful patch did to it will go down in video game infamy. The SOE bigwigs always think they know what we want and they are usually wrong. Those guys should consider writing a book titled: "How to ruin a game: Introduce Features no one Wanted and Alienating Your Playerbase in one Easy Step"
I recently reactivated my account, taking advatage of my free 45 days, after being away for 6 years (yeah 6 years!) and it was tough to play. I am glad I did get to play it again before it's gone. It was nice to hear that music again, and unpack my houses from data pad and check out all my artifacts. Unfortunately I could not stomach more than a few days of game time. It's just not that game I loved.
R.I.P. SWG!
QFE for sure...
RIP SWG...Thanks for the memories...It was a blast at times...It broke my heart other times...But I made friends for life there...And that's good enough for me...
This isnt remotely true at all.
SWG never approached EQ numbers. It sold close to it, but only 300k people subscribed at peak. About half of what EQ had at the time.
It released too early (Lucas Arts was the publisher so they were the ones that made that call) and was a mess. Essays were written on what was wrong with it. They did some work getting halfway decent content into the game, but things were pretty badly broken, and it wasnt enough.
I think it was the developer that posted on here for a few years that said that their acquisition rate was as expected, but their churn was horrendous (people were trying out the game, and not sticking with it). This was an era where MMOs showed growth over their first few years (and all the games that are considered highly successful do: EQ, WoW, EvE) and SWG never showed growth. Ever.
Yes, the CU was the beginning of the end in some ways, but it was a story that never moved forward in the first place. Crippled at the start due to early release, poor decisions made even before the CU. LA launched an advertising blitz after NGE, but where was this before it? The Jedi hologrind crap (its original implementation fo random profession grinding was the complete opposite of fun)...Lots of things that could have and should have been done differently before Lucas Arts told SoE the game wasnt star-warsy enough.
Then WoW launched, and shit hit the fan.
SWG was considered a failure before the NGE. Yes, it had a decent population but nowhere near what was expected. LA and SoE didnt ruin a great game, they ruined a bad game with great potential.
rip buddy. definitely had a blast pre-nge.
_________________
USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST
It still is pretty pathetic though, that after 6 years, a large percentage of people fail to open their eyes and instantly blame SoE for everything.
SoE never publicly threw LA under the bus, or vice versa. However SoE developers have given the 'just following orders' line when told they had to change the game. But no one ever singled which company the order came from.
But here is a quote from Smedley's blog in 2006 when he was discussing their hot new development project (lol), DCUO.
'It’s often frustrating to work with third party IP. There’s a constant battle over what the right direction is for the game, and from our own recent experience, it’s not something we enjoy. It very often puts handcuffs on what we can and can’t do and, frankly speaking, it’s a lot harder to make great games when the IP holders don’t understand the online gaming market.
The exception to this rule has been our relationship with the team at DC Comics."
Also, here is a quote from a Lucas Arts employee, Nancy McIntyre:
'We really needed to give people the experience of being Han Solo or Luke Skywalker rather than being Uncle Owen, the moisture farmer. We wanted more instant gratification: kill, get treasure, repeat. We needed to give people more of an opportunity to be a part of what they have seen in the movies rather than something they had created themselves'
Its just kind of ridiculous that with quotes like these out there people are quick to blame SoE for everything. Of course they had some blame, but its obvious from what information we have that Lucas Arts was all over this. And SoE did not have the final say. They can't do a single thing without LA approval.
Personally I don't think it was all SOE's fault but at the same time LA didn't do it. Sure LA might have ordered it (thought there are blogs that disagree with that) but SOE instead of tring to put up a fight and supporting the game they had created themselves they just said yes master and did followed orders. They didn't tell the player base about it either. In fact they made promoses to fix that or put in this. Then they would do something out of left field.
I will not play a game with a cash shop ever again. A dev job should be to make the game better not make me pay so it sucks less.
Now that the company has 1 less resource drain, maybe we could see some updates to Vanguard....
Oh sorry, I was not aware Lucasarts was in charge of game development, or community moderation, public relations, etc.
I am guessing you worked for either SOE or Lucasarts at the time and you are privy to some information that I am not aware of. Maybe LA was "all over it", but you don't really know, nor do I. The only thing I do know is that I was having a blast playing a game run by SOE, then I was not, so you will have to excuse me if I blame the company that developed the game for ruining it
Guess the NGE wasn't all SOE made it up to be.
Not saying that the game didn't have it's issues before the NGE, but had SOE worked on fixing those issues instead of redoing the game as they did we may not be seeing this announcement right now. One thing is for sure, because of the road they opted to take, we now know the ultimate course that put the game on.
Thanks to Raph Koster (I know you lurk here sometimes my man) and the original crew and original vision that gave me countless hours of fun and entertainment living in the Star Wars universe. Thanks also to all the people that took advantage of the great system that allowed each of you to create the persona that you've always wanted (especially when those persona's weren't of the "iconic" flavor) and thus enriching my game experience.
This needed to happen. I understand some will disagree, but it will indeed give some closure to those still burning with anger over the NGE and it adds a measurable amount of credibility to those of us (myself included) that, while not violently raging over the NGE, knew it was the wrong way to go.
Lesson: Be yourself and do it well. Don't try to flip midway and become something else.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Chavez y Chavez
But SW:TOR is the NGE 2.0.
I don't think the closing of SWG really changes anything. SW:TOR is still a representation of the mindset that killed Star Wars Galaxies.
How do we know they didnt put up a fight?
Everyone makes these assumptions about whats going on beyond closed doors. We don't know the politics of the situation and its obviously not as simple as smedley said this or torres said that. We do know that some people did voice opinions against what was going on (the devleopers themselves told the bigwigs the iconic class sytem was a bad idea and would kill the playerbase). But we don't know exactly what went down and as long as SoE and LA are still partners we never will.
Everyone who has made any comments on how the NGE came about has said that it was concieved at SOE. Jeff Freeman said so on the SWG vet forum on this site (and on a couple other forums). He explained that it originated with the idea to make a trial area for new players similar to EQ2's trial island. Alan Crosby (Brenlo) straight out answered a post on the official SWG forums asking if LEC forced the NGE, that no, SOE conceived and developed it. John Smedley has said a few times that it was SOE's idea. Former SWG dev "GreenMarine" made a post in the comments on the Broken Toys blog (from a post about Dan Rubenfield's blog post, the "OM NOM NOM" version) pointing the finger for the game's problems at the fact that the dev team was primarily systems designers and the SOE Producers (he specifically said the LEC ones were not a problem) believing they knew better than the playerbase what the playerbase wanted.
The quote by Nancy McIntyre was when she was the VP of marketing at LEC and she was repeating the marketing spin on the NGE.
The Smed's blog post about licensed IPs was about how many third party IP holder say "No" to ideas, hence the handcuffs metaphor. It was made to say how nice it was that Warner Brothers is a lot less restrictive whith their DC license and how it is easier to make a good game because of it. DCUO's success has proven that (/sarcasm).
SWG's many problems originated at SOE, but LEC did approve them. Given the fact that SOE was the only party of the two that had experience with MMOs, and the fact that most of the mistakes made with SWG have been made with all of SOE's other MMOs, the evidence weighs much higher in favor of SOe shouldering the blame for them.
Kinda funny they shut this game down and are keeping Vanguard around.
Yes, Lucas Arts was in charge of PR. It was their responisbility as publisher. They were the ones that spoke with the public after the NGE. Torres and McIntyre were out there making statements, not SoE, for the most part.
LA does have complete control over what goes in to the game. So while SoE are the developers, due to the fact that Star Wars is LA's property they had to get their ok for everything. Every last bug fix had to be signed off on.
This is stuff that has been confirmed and is not speculation.