The main reason i didn't like this game was how easy and fast it was to level, nowadays its all about instant gratification, in my EQ days i was excited when i ended a grind day getting maybe 50% into a level or if it was a good grind day a full level once i got higher into the leveling of the game, i felt like i actually accomplished something in games like that, these games nowadays though are programmed so even 8 year olds can play it to end game fast just so they can make more money, which is also what WoW did, dumbing down MMOs are the new norm.
You're clouded by nostalgia. There really wasn't anything terribly fun about super slow grinding or de-levelling back in EQ. It maybe gave you a false sense of accomplishment because you wasted 8 hours grinding half a level. How is reducing this repetitive tedium dumbing down? We look so fondly back at EQ because for many of us it was our first MMO and it was shiney and new.
Actually you wasted some days while leveling in Rift. On the other hand you enjoyed socializing in eq while grinding. There was a reason for the so-called downtime in eq - this was the perfect time to start chatting. In Rift (like in WoW) you just don't chat, you are there for killing and looting. You could run around with NPC mercenaries and would have a similar experience.
Not to mention the immersive feeling of a world that Norrath was compared to the quest-hub-train that Rift/WoW is.
And not to mention the so-called endgame in Rift/WoW compared to the endless journey in eq.
There is so much wrong with these dumbed down games you would not even believe that somebody really pays money for this crap.
Rift has had a player retention that's better than a WAR, AoC or DCUO and those who leave don't leave as embittered or spiteful as a lot of the ones are who left WAR, AoC or STO. Looking at player activity trend figures right now (in various monitoring tools) I'd guess they still manage to hold close to half the player numbers that they had in the launch weeks. That's pretty good. Not the best it could have been, but still better than most other MMO launches of the past years, especially it's pretty good considering that it comes from a new unknown company and it has no large IP behind it.
I am sorry to burst your bubble but you use tools like Xfire right ? So as you use them, let's analyse them. At launch Rift had around 5200 players on Xfire now around 1800, playing hours going from 32K+ to 8K+
More importantly, the ratio of WOW and Rift was 5 to 1 at launch in those "measuring tools", these days it often is 18 to 1, meaning if WoW is losing some players, Rift is crashing compared to what Xfire shows (both games tracked over 4 months). Xfire stays Xfire over time between both games. So comapring over time is certainly valid.
Aion and EVE had 3 times less players than Rift 4 months ago, they now both are equal (Aion) or surpassed in number of players (EVE). Rift closed 32 servers and still the vast majority is on questionable "medium" status.
The only thing why Rift had slightly better results in the first 3 months was the free to play weekends, the free trials after 2 months and now the crash and burn politics of dust bin offers (9 dollars for a 4 months old game , really ).
Those 50% to 75% cut prices and free to play offers avoided the drastic drops in the first 2-3 months, but the end conclusion now is that Rift has less play than Aion in the west.
4 months after launch it is not even the second most played mmo in the west. The problem of course now is that the market for them drained and ... according to them they still didn't reach 1 M "customers".
Rift is in no better state than War was after 4 months, in fact it is in a worse state (number of players) than a 2 year old game like Aion.
There is no bubble, I work with facts. WAR had a lower retention rate than Rift had after 1-2 months, looking at Rift's figures in both Xfire and Raptr Rift even now has managed to hover around the 40-45% of its launch period figures.
So yes, it's doing better than a lot of those other MMO's did.
And Aion is no comparison: people might consider it a fail in the US, but looking globally Aion still has 70-100 servers worldwide, to give an indication, Aion catered to almost a million players in the west with only about 30 servers. Yes, I'm including all servers for if we don't, the 6-7 million WoW players in China/Asia should be discounted as well.
So, looking at it worldwide I'd say Aion is still a thriving success, and with 200-300 million dollar revenues for 2010 I also expect Aion to still have a million players and more.
So far, Rift seems (rough guessing) to be holding 350-400k players and having a better player retention than most other AAA MMORPG's of the last couple of years, which is pretty good for a little new themepark MMO of a newcomer company. Besides that, there's far less outcries and bitter indignation than seen around a WAR, AoC, FFXIV or DCUO, or even an Aion with the 'boring grind' complaints that ran rampant back then. The majority of people that do leave Rift do so without any hard feelings, which is quite differently from the people that left those other games.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
The main reason i didn't like this game was how easy and fast it was to level, nowadays its all about instant gratification, in my EQ days i was excited when i ended a grind day getting maybe 50% into a level or if it was a good grind day a full level once i got higher into the leveling of the game, i felt like i actually accomplished something in games like that, these games nowadays though are programmed so even 8 year olds can play it to end game fast just so they can make more money, which is also what WoW did, dumbing down MMOs are the new norm.
You're clouded by nostalgia. There really wasn't anything terribly fun about super slow grinding or de-levelling back in EQ. It maybe gave you a false sense of accomplishment because you wasted 8 hours grinding half a level. How is reducing this repetitive tedium dumbing down? We look so fondly back at EQ because for many of us it was our first MMO and it was shiney and new.
Actually you wasted some days while leveling in Rift. On the other hand you enjoyed socializing in eq while grinding. There was a reason for the so-called downtime in eq - this was the perfect time to start chatting. In Rift (like in WoW) you just don't chat, you are there for killing and looting. You could run around with NPC mercenaries and would have a similar experience.
Not to mention the immersive feeling of a world that Norrath was compared to the quest-hub-train that Rift/WoW is.
And not to mention the so-called endgame in Rift/WoW compared to the endless journey in eq.
There is so much wrong with these dumbed down games you would not even believe that somebody really pays money for this crap.
VERY well said here. MMO fans make me laugh. If anything isn't WoW then it's not "really a MMO". Hellgate, fps titles, etc. They completely ignore the community and RP factors that actually made the older games enjoyable. I quit WoW, Rift and will let AoC expire for the same reason - there is no more community in MMOs. They are all the mindless alt rush of WoW. If that's all they offer then I'll take Halo:Reach and the instant satisfaction of nuking Covenant for free over $15/ month for dailies. As MMOs become endgame raid focused markets in the west will get smaller. Older players won't keep wasting the time while younger players have FAR more and better options than existed years ago.
I agree 100% with OP. Sooooo tried of kill this and kill that MMORPGs for no real sense or purpose. That is why I am taking a rest from MMORPGs until a worthy one is released.
Somehow it feels like MMORPGs are becoming as shallow as console, fighting MMORPGs. There is simply nothing else of substance to do beside kill X for Y reward.
Really. Just stay away from it. I was dumb enough to let some friends talk me into coming back. You know "oh look so much changed" trash.
You know, Rift is in a way the end and the lowest common nominator of MMOs. Look at UO, EQ and SWG to see how it began. As a vast, complex idea with many many subsystems. Especially these days as SWG closes, you see what a vast collection of systems a MMO once was. And it seems as if with each new MMO, what was a MMo was less and less. Until Rift is the most minimal definition. Kill stuff. That's it. Yes it has crafting. But I'll be damned it THAT is crafting at all! It's just some figleaf replacement for crafting! There is really NOTHING but kill X of Y. It is the finality and ending of the downward spiral. A spiral greatly accelerated by WOW.
You see, all Trion adds now is a copy of the same event. Find 7 of X in Sanctum as daily and exchange it for shells, coins whatevers. Every invasion is exactly the same. And no matter how they rename the "events" it is always the one same mechanic of kill/gather X of Y. Nothing else. The vastness of game possiblities of SWG or UO is a forgotten shadow now. And while games like LOTRO at least had SOME other stuff to do than kill kill kill.., this has nothing else. No peaceful planting of crops, no housing, no music system, nothing. People only run run run and kill kill kill. I really LOATHE this development. And you see, whereas LOTRO and WOW added these "token collection" way to waste the time of players with minimal effort after they had CONSIDERABLE other content, Rift starts it already, when it is new and while Rift is VERY small and limited content wise. And what do they add? A raid many won't ever see and another token collection quest. Copy paste copy paste.
And the rest? Nothing to write home about. And handful of dungeon you grind OVER and OVER and OVER called "endgame" and one of the damn WORST PVP I have seen in some time. FOUR arenas with all the letdowns arena PVP always has. (Meaning, it sucks. Only OPEN world pvp is real. Why it has none like castle sieges or what is beyond me.) THIS cheap PVP could be stitched together with an editor by a few programmers in a long weekend!
I am so disappointed by this game. It is SO dull with it's endless hectic, like in Tabula Rasa, there is no rest, no calm story moments, no civilization you FEEL you want to fight for, nothing. Just endless spawns of Rifts tossed at you. Always the same drill. I am so done with these kill focussed MMOs, where essentially killing things ALL THE DAMN TIME is the ONLY thing there! I don't WANT that! I want MMOs like SWG! Like UO! WORLDS, not some frigging kill park!
Sigh. Maybe Arch Age can bring that back, since I kinda doubt SWTOR or GW2 will be anything but kill kill kill with a nice wrap around.
Sorry if that offends you, but I just realized Rift is just a very simplistic and mediocre game. I am just tired wasting my time on trash. Shiny wears off fast. And there is just no fundament to remedy it. Not at all.
/rant over
Well first I'd like to apologise in advance as this post will seem harsh, but I feel I need to tell you this, without sugar coating it, for your own good.
How many times do you need to stick your hand in a fire before you learn not to get burned, Elikal?
First you decide the game sucks in beta and won't play. Fine that is your choice more power to you.
Then for some reason you dicide to play any way. Unsuprisingly you decide again the game sucks and feel the need to come here and complain your head off why the game sucks and why you are quitting.
Now against all logic here you are again, first blaming others for your own impulse control issues, and lack of good judgement when it comes to MMOs, and second, filling the forum with more pointless "this game sux" posts that we've heard from you time and time again.
Enough is freaking enough. What you like or dislike, and what you decide to play or not play is completely your business. However if you can't find the self discpline to avoid games you don't like when you should already know better, please stop coming here and bending our ear about it. You have flip flopped on this game so many times your opinion of it is completely inconsequential. Anything else you have to say is just self serving drama, which has no place on these game discussion forums. If you want to share your every thought with the world, I'd advise you start your own blog page, and leave the game forums to those of us who want to discuss the game itself and not just to publicly air our newest meltdown.
This is exactly how i felt after reading OP's post. Why to scream and cry when you stick your hand in fire on purpose? even though you know you are going to get burned..yet again. One of the main reasons why i never take his posts seriously, neither should you or anyone else for that matter.
I'm actually not sure what to make of the video, on one hand, I really like the idea of puzzle looting, but on the other hand, thinking having to minimizes the game client to go to the internet to search for clues......yikes, considering the heavy graphics engine, you will need a hefty loaded rig to do that efficiently, playing the game in window format causes frame rate issues and especially if you have dual-screen setup =, but I like the idea of alternate reality gaming in MMO
As for the combat, I like how lighting affects when you are in water and all that, but the tank,dps,healer setup isn't what I had in mind for the game, since it is a skill based progression =
How much WoW could a WoWhater hate, if a WoWhater could hate WoW? As much WoW as a WoWhater would, if a WoWhater could hate WoW.
There is no bubble, I work with facts. WAR had a lower retention rate than Rift had after 1-2 months, looking at Rift's figures in both Xfire and Raptr Rift even now has managed to hover around the 40-45% of its launch period figures. So yes, it's doing better than a lot of those other MMO's did.
So far, Rift seems (rough guessing) to be holding 350-400k players and having a better player retention than most other AAA MMORPG's of the last couple of years, which is pretty good for a little new themepark MMO of a newcomer company.
The one thing we don't have as any sort of certainty is Trion isn't a company that has to release sales figures quarterly like Mythic is/was. They could essentially run RIFT from Day 1 and never declare any subs whatsoever because they aren't legally accountable like Warhammer was.
Then there is the whole claim Trion says "Our server is next gen and can hold blah blah blah amount of players" so they won't ever say how many 'Full' or 'Medium' is, which leaves people to guess on their own.
These were the numbers for WAR according to Wiki, which are VERY similiar to RIFT:
Wiki:
As of September 30, 2008, WAR had sold 1.2 million copies and had 800,000 registered users.[30]
As of October 10, 2008, Mythic Entertainment announced that 750,000 people were playing Warhammer Online.[31]
As of December 31, 2008, the number of active WAR subscribers had decreased to "over 300,000 paying subscribers in North America and Europe."[32]
As of May 5, 2009, Electronic Arts executives confirmed in an investor conference that they have 300,000 subscribers as of the end of March 2009,[33] shortly after the company reported a loss of $1.08 billion in the financial year for 2009.[34] Consequently, the number of servers was drastically reduced[35] in order to consolidate the remaining population. The total number of servers was reduced to 13 and the number of role-playing servers was reduced to 1.[36]
In one way that's positive because without being obligated to release actual numbers and earnings, a company simply won't do it. One cannot make them announce bad news. In another way, it makes it even easier to tell when an independant company is probably not doing as well as it expected.
Trion came out and said "We sold THISSSSSS many boxes, had THISSSSSS many registered accounts, and THISSSSSS many subs." They did not have to but they did because it was GOOD news and they couldn't wait to share it.
The thing is, if Trion doesn't come out with something at the six month mark announcing what their subs are at, that's a strong indication that things aren't good. No company will ever hold back GOOD news and will beg anyone with a microphone to listen.
When things are going mediocre/bad for any company.. "Numbers aren't important. We focus on quality, not quantity" is the excuse.
If November comes (when all the original six months subs are long gone, that's when we should be hearing.. something. If not, there's trouble.
I'm actually not sure what to make of the video, on one hand, I really like the idea of puzzle looting, but on the other hand, thinking having to minimizes the game client to go to the internet to search for clues......yikes, considering the heavy graphics engine, you will need a hefty loaded rig to do that efficiently, playing the game in window format causes frame rate issues and especially if you have dual-screen setup =, but I like the idea of alternate reality gaming in MMO As for the combat, I like how lighting affects when you are in water and all that, but the tank,dps,healer setup isn't what I had in mind for the game, since it is a skill based progression =
I definitely agree about the graphics. This game is going to be testing some people as you can tell from the regular combat, never mind the minimizing client. Age of Conan was a spec hog as well so I would expect Funcom's next game to be as well.
That said, I don't mind that and actually I love a graphics heavy game. It lends for more immersive play and keeps me more interested than flatter looking graphical games. As long as it doesn't have as many bugs as Conan had, I'm all for them setting a standard of decent cards/rigs only to play.
The most interesting things though are they say you can have 500 skills at your disposal (drool) and looking at the wheel in the vid was really sweet.
The other is how the characters are actual humans, which makes it extremely easy to relate to instead of "I'm an Elf. I'm smart and stand like a stick is up my butt." or "I'm a Dwarf. I like to drink beer. Herdy Derp."
God, the OP makes me feel like a freak, 'cause I actually really enjoy the RIft story and lore.
Trust me, you are not the freak in this equation... Yes, Rift is a lot of what people complain about. It is very much your standard themepark MMOG with a couple of interesting twists. It never claimed to be anything else and in fact went out of it's way to make that clear. Unfortunately some people can't see the forest through the trees.
I'm still gobsmacked that people still believe this..... watch this Beta trailer and then rethink your words, Rift claimed to be so much more than what they released......
okay so if i replace RIFT with WoW it's the same rant.
Or any themepark MMORPG released over the last seven years...
Please tell me the awesome and amazing sandbox MMO you are playing where every day is something new and it's not the same old repetive crap.
This themepark vs sandbox crap has gotta end. It's got nothing to do with being a "themepark" (god I hate that stupid term), is has everything to do we being un-imaginative.
You know it's a sad state of affairs when every reviewer gives it a 9 because it had a smoth launch with few bugs, and its pretty - then they go on to comment about how the gameplay and mechanics are so-so.
Originally posted by Danwarr Originally posted by Calerxes
Originally posted by Darkholme
Originally posted by Strap
God, the OP makes me feel like a freak, 'cause I actually really enjoy the RIft story and lore.
Trust me, you are not the freak in this equation... Yes, Rift is a lot of what people complain about. It is very much your standard themepark MMOG with a couple of interesting twists. It never claimed to be anything else and in fact went out of it's way to make that clear. Unfortunately some people can't see the forest through the trees. I'm still gobsmacked that people still believe this..... watch this Beta trailer and then rethink your words, Rift claimed to be so much more than what they released...... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldI3ypm1gHg "Rift is the complete next gen in online gaming"
"complete means launching with everything you expect from a world class AAA MMO"
"Next gen means it will advance the genre the day it ships"
I almost thought I was watching a trailer for SW:TOR there for a second... That line is still what gets me about RIFT.
As the newest mmo made in 2011, some of the things that weren't there that I would expect at launch:
- Guild banks.
- Housing.
- Extensive pet system.
- Several (more than two) starting areas.
- Diverse and varied wardrobe/gear selection.
- Interesting races other than 'humans' reskinned/resized.
- Travel system (in addition to horse mounts) involving boats or air flight.
- More content for players which lend immersion of daily life in Telara such as fishing or crop harvesting.
- Larger maps.
Rift had some things right but they certainly didn't live up to that hyped line. Even F2P games you come to 'expect' those, let alone a AAA title.
I'm not even going to touch on advancing the genre the day it ships as that's a flat out lie, which needs no real discussion from a player perspective.
God, the OP makes me feel like a freak, 'cause I actually really enjoy the RIft story and lore.
Trust me, you are not the freak in this equation... Yes, Rift is a lot of what people complain about. It is very much your standard themepark MMOG with a couple of interesting twists. It never claimed to be anything else and in fact went out of it's way to make that clear. Unfortunately some people can't see the forest through the trees.
I'm still gobsmacked that people still believe this..... watch this Beta trailer and then rethink your words, Rift claimed to be so much more than what they released......
"complete means launching with everything you expect from a world class AAA MMO"
"Next gen means it will advance the genre the day it ships"
I almost thought I was watching a trailer for SW:TOR there for a second...
That line is still what gets me about RIFT.
As the newest mmo made in 2011, some of the things that weren't there that I would expect at launch:
- Guild banks.
- Housing.
- Extensive pet system.
- Several (more than two) starting areas.
- Diverse and varied wardrobe/gear selection.
- Interesting races other than 'humans' reskinned/resized.
- Travel system (in addition to horse mounts) involving boats or air flight.
- More content for players which lend immersion of daily life in Telara such as fishing or crop harvesting.
- Larger maps.
Rift had some things right but they certainly didn't live up to that hyped line. Even F2P games you come to 'expect' those, let alone a AAA title.
I'm not even going to touch on advancing the genre the day it ships as that's a flat out lie, which needs no real discussion from a player perspective.
I'd really love to know where this whole "AAA" bs came from. As far as I can tell, it's a forum based ideal with no objective and industry based research behind it. That being said, your realism is appreciated. Titles that have come out recently, and arguably most other titles in the past, do no have these supposed AAA features. I feel it would be advantageous for the gaming at large to organize and define what precisely is required in these kind of games. I feel your list touches on the mechanical features, but alot of titles are missing a deeper aesthetic that would make the game worthwile. For instance, F2P games I find have some horrible class design. I don't want to play a class called a Psykeeper or something else silly. Think of something original or call the class what it is in common terms.
I hate to be pessimistic but I guarantee you could negate 95% of the games on this site. They're crap. Pure crap. You log in and see new advertisements for the next f2p failure. I wish companies would just stop, stop making this and invest your capital elsewhere. Take a slower approach and think things out.
All that being said, Rift is at a best B game. I would put very few in the A rating. It does nothing worth noting. Nothing. It doesn't even polish it well. It's another example of "Hey, we have a formula. Put some elves on it and release. Add some pomp and circumstance for that saccharin flavor. "
My suggestion for the community is start letting these games fail. Let the industry calm down a bit. It's like the Sunset Strip right after a Motley Crue concert and damn it's sticky.
I'm actually not sure what to make of the video, on one hand, I really like the idea of puzzle looting, but on the other hand, thinking having to minimizes the game client to go to the internet to search for clues......yikes, considering the heavy graphics engine, you will need a hefty loaded rig to do that efficiently, playing the game in window format causes frame rate issues and especially if you have dual-screen setup =, but I like the idea of alternate reality gaming in MMO
As for the combat, I like how lighting affects when you are in water and all that, but the tank,dps,healer setup isn't what I had in mind for the game, since it is a skill based progression =
1st, they will have an in-game browser on your character's smartphone. Also 2nd, about the tank healer etc, they don't design encounters to be "you need 1 tank 1 healer 3 dps" but to be "ok you need this much dps, you need this much heals, and you need this much survivability across the group".
2 people with 1 healing skill for example, could fill the role of 1 healer. 2 offtanky DPS players can switch bosses between them and still deliver big dps. Or they could off heal. Or, you could ignore having a tank completely, and use 2 CC oriented people who can control-lock the boss.
So while it's possible to play this game as a holy trinity, and probably will be what the "scratching-at-the-surface" crowd will do (your typical Rift player) - there is going to be several layers and dimensions for more inquisitive players to play very, very differently.
As of September 30, 2008, WAR had sold 1.2 million copies and had 800,000 registered users.[30]
As of October 10, 2008, Mythic Entertainment announced that 750,000 people were playing Warhammer Online.[31]
Trion came out and said "We sold THISSSSSS many boxes, had THISSSSSS many registered accounts, and THISSSSSS many subs." They did not have to but they did because it was GOOD news and they couldn't wait to share it.
A few comments to your remarks:
after 3 months WAR had a player retention of 35-40%, Rift had one of 50-55%.
I don't know where Trion came out that they sold 'this many boxes' or 'this many subs', iirc they never mentioned it, do you have links? Or did you mean Mythic Entertainment?
Originally posted by popinjay
As the newest mmo made in 2011, some of the things that weren't there that I would expect at launch:
- Guild banks.
- Housing (not in Aion, WoW, AoC)
- Extensive pet system (excuse me? What do you mean with 'extensive pet system'? Doesn't sound standard in most MMO's).
- Several (more than two) starting areas (AoC has 1 starting area, Aion 2).
- Diverse and varied wardrobe/gear selection (enough AAA MMO's that haven't that).
- Interesting races other than 'humans' reskinned/resized (AoC and Aion is human oriented, LotrO has no non-humanoid races).
- Travel system (in addition to horse mounts) involving boats or air flight (not in AoC or LotrO).
- More content for players which lend immersion of daily life in Telara such as fishing or crop harvesting (no crop harvesting in AoC or WoW, you do have collection gathering which stimulates exploration in Rift).
- Larger maps (again, Aion and Aion aren't exactly immensely huge as well).
Rift had some things right but they certainly didn't live up to that hyped line. Even F2P games you come to 'expect' those, let alone a AAA title.
It's a lot of bla, the talk about expectations. Like I showed, a lot of the things you mentioned other MMORPG's that are considered AAA don't have those as well. In fact, I limited myself to just a few AAA MMO's, but if you take a look at others you'll find that there's quite some things missing as well.
Bottomline, Rift isn't worse than other MMORPG's that are considered AAA when it comes to its features. This could trigger a whole 'we should expect a lot more of AAA titles than we have seen given us over the past 5-6 years' but frankly, that wasn't what the discussion is about. The thing I replied on is the remark that former AAA titles should have made us expect more from Rift; however, a look at the list of examples above clearly shows that what presumably was expected from Rift as an AAA title was often lacking as well in former AAA MMO's, and not just 1 or 2.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Rift had a 30% retention of its player base but not even its players.
Rift went in 4 months from 32K+ to 9K in playing sessions on Xfire.
Rift went from having 5.2 K Xfire players in March to 1.9K .So where you get that 50% retention rate from?
Not to mention the closure of 32 servers without having any impact on the state of those 90% medium servers at all.Now comes the best part: RIFT only attained that 30% rate of "player base" - not players - by putiing up:
Free weekend play after 3 weeks launch, Free play after 2 months launch, a price cut of 50% after 3 months, price cuts of 75% after 4 months.
Giving a 4 months old game away for the price of 3 hamburgers (9 dollars) only to see it drop further on Xfire.
I am new here, but I have seen your extensive posting in defending the industry.
Are you by any chance an industry chill perhaps? Because if that's the case: I thought this is a place for MMO players not industry defenders ?
The industry was not helped by games like Rift,
That word spread already long ago over the internet.
Just because someone doesn't like to agree with your view on games, doesn't give you a reason to attack people personally
Manners, that word forgotten already long ago over the internet.
Honestly, who cares if Rift is failing or what not, if it is failing, it will die, you don't need to hate and put it on fire. Unconstructive post is unconstructive. A game is lowering the price, they call it fail, a game charges at full price, they call it overprice, there is no pleasing in this industry.
How much WoW could a WoWhater hate, if a WoWhater could hate WoW? As much WoW as a WoWhater would, if a WoWhater could hate WoW.
Rift had a 30% retention of its player base but not even its players.
Rift went in 4 months from 32K+ to 9K in playing sessions on Xfire.
Rift went from having 5.2 K Xfire players in March to 1.9K .So where you get that 50% retention rate from?
Bullshit, if you want to do it right, you take the player numbers of various days, not the hours of course like you do, everyone spends more hours in the first weeks than later. Player numbers ranged from 4600 to 5200, now they hover around 1900-2000. Do the math yourself, that's a a current 40% player retention based on averages. The last week of May, 3 months after launch, it had an average 50-55% player retention of its post-launch playerbase.
I am new here, but I have seen your extensive posting in defending the industry.
Are you by any chance an industry chill perhaps? Because if that's the case: I thought this is a place for MMO players not industry defenders ?
The industry was not helped by games like Rift,
That word spread already long ago over the internet.
Hmm... new you say, yet you are very familiar with some posters enough to assume (falsely btw) their stances... extensive Rift bashing, misinterpreting Xfire figures, overtly defensive and praising of WoW/Blizzard and generally negative towards other MMO's? Hmmm... sounds familiar.... if you say so that you're new, well, whatever you say, I guess.
I get some deja vue though, I remember clashing with someone else regarding Rift who was heavily into bashing Rift using XFire figures to predict its fall within a month after launch, someone who was only really positive about WoW and Blizzard, I think he was the biggest WoW fan(boi) on these forums for years, often emerging under different names. One of them was 'zorndorf' I heard. I haven't seen him for a while now.
Well, if you say you're new then I guess that's it, your way of posting and argumenting only sounded very familiar, a very typical unique mix of style, stances and arguments used. Don't see it often in that combination, in fact, only seen it with one person, that former poster Zorndorf (+ aliases). Or maybe 2 persons now, I guess
It's quite insulting to accuse other people of being shills btw, only because you don't agree with their arguments. It's also interesting to see that you apparently just 'recognize' other posters being shils, being new here as you say you are, it's far more logical and common sense if that accusation would happen by someone I clashed with before on these forums under a different name, one who has shown a petty antipathy before towards some other posters.
The fact that you dislike all other MMO's besides WoW, doesn't mean that you're right, or that others should too. Use better arguments next time, not petty, immature ones. It reminds too quickly of other posters who did the same and who always abruptly stopped posting after a while. Only to see someone else emerge some time after that, with the exact same style, arguments and viewpoints.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Originally posted by MMO.Maverick Originally posted by popinjay
Wiki:
As of September 30, 2008, WAR had sold 1.2 million copies and had 800,000 registered users.[30]
As of October 10, 2008, Mythic Entertainment announced that 750,000 people were playing Warhammer Online.[31]
Trion came out and said "We sold THISSSSSS many boxes, had THISSSSSS many registered accounts, and THISSSSSS many subs." They did not have to but they did because it was GOOD news and they couldn't wait to share it.
A few comments to your remarks: after 3 months WAR had a player retention of 35-40%, Rift had one of 50-55%. I don't know where Trion came out that they sold 'this many boxes' or 'this many subs', iirc they never mentioned it, do you have links? Or did you mean Mythic Entertainment?
Originally posted by popinjay
As the newest mmo made in 2011, some of the things that weren't there that I would expect at launch: - Guild banks. - Housing (not in Aion, WoW, AoC) - Extensive pet system (excuse me? What do you mean with 'extensive pet system'? Doesn't sound standard in most MMO's). - Several (more than two) starting areas (AoC has 1 starting area, Aion 2). - Diverse and varied wardrobe/gear selection (enough AAA MMO's that haven't that). - Interesting races other than 'humans' reskinned/resized (AoC and Aion is human oriented, LotrO has no non-humanoid races). - Travel system (in addition to horse mounts) involving boats or air flight (not in AoC or LotrO). - More content for players which lend immersion of daily life in Telara such as fishing or crop harvesting (no crop harvesting in AoC or WoW, you do have collection gathering which stimulates exploration in Rift). - Larger maps (again, Aion and Aion aren't exactly immensely huge as well).
Rift had some things right but they certainly didn't live up to that hyped line. Even F2P games you come to 'expect' those, let alone a AAA title.
It's a lot of bla, the talk about expectations. Like I showed, a lot of the things you mentioned other MMORPG's that are considered AAA don't have those as well. In fact, I limited myself to just a few AAA MMO's, but if you take a look at others you'll find that there's quite some things missing as well. Bottomline, Rift isn't worse than other MMORPG's that are considered AAA when it comes to its features. This could trigger a whole 'we should expect a lot more of AAA titles than we have seen given us over the past 5-6 years' but frankly, that wasn't what the discussion is about. The thing I replied on is the remark that former AAA titles should have made us expect more from Rift; however, a look at the list of examples above clearly shows that what presumably was expected from Rift as an AAA title was often lacking as well in former AAA MMO's, and not just 1 or 2. Rift made announcements of one million registered accounts they had. I know you saw that, it was hard to miss.
As far as the things about what Trion said involving things I (note "I") would expect in a "world class MMO title" released in 2011, I listed what I think should be in those games. That's based on what came before those games and also what other games are doing at the same time.
The games you listed with no housing didn't release in 2011. WAR, AION, WoW.. all those games are years older than RIFT, not months. I wouldn't expect them in those as standard. But certainly today I would expect that in any 'AAA' title. If you don't have that you better have something else that shows why you didn't have it in.
Pet system in WoW is extensive. Pet (or companion) system in SWTOR is going to be extensive. That's what I would expect from a AAA mmo in 2011, it's been done before. And I'm not talking fluff animals either.
Starting Areas- AoC and AION are older games. I don't expect more than two zones from those. In 2011, I expect more than two small zones from a AAA world class game.
Diverse gear- You excuse isn't good. To say 'not enough AAA mmos don't have it' is playing down to OLD expectations. Doesn't matter that Ultima Online doesn't have an extensive gear selection. It's an older game, not a brand new world class AAA mmo in 2011.
Races- AoC is supposed to be humans. That's the novels. Not sure why you'd expect elves or strange races there. Aion is a three years old. That's not a brand new world class 2011 AAA mmo.
Travel- AoC and Aion are not brand new AAA 'world class' mmos in 2011. I wouldn't expect them to have extensive travel.
No activities for daily life- AoC and Aion aren't AAA world class mmos made in 2011. I wouldn't expect them to have crop harvesting and other things. The artifacts do not stimulate exploration. The world is small and in one zone you can stay in several spots and get your artifacts without moving much, OR you could just buy them on the auction house.
I agree RIFT 'isn't worse' as you say, than other MMOs but that's not the issue. When I see new products come out on the market, I would expect.. new features. If there are things other people are already doing and have done for years before, I come to expect them as standard in the newest game declaring itself a world class AAA mmo.
Note, I keep saying "World class AAA mmo" because that's what RIFT calls itself. To then lower the expectations by saying so and so doesn't do this doesn't make your product look better. It actually makes it look worse if it doesn't have any more newer features than an older game that you'd expect.
The games you listed with no housing didn't release in 2011. WAR, AION, WoW.. all those games are years older than RIFT, not months. I wouldn't expect them in those as standard. But certainly today I would expect that in any 'AAA' title. If you don't have that you better have something else that shows why you didn't have it in.
Pet system in WoW is extensive. Pet (or companion) system in SWTOR is going to be extensive. That's what I would expect from a AAA mmo in 2011, it's been done before. And I'm not talking fluff animals either.
Starting Areas- AoC and AION are older games. I don't expect more than two zones from those. In 2011, I expect more than two small zones from a AAA world class game.
Diverse gear- You excuse isn't good. To say 'not enough AAA mmos don't have it' is playing down to OLD expectations. Doesn't matter that Ultima Online doesn't have an extensive gear selection. It's an older game, not a brand new world class AAA mmo in 2011.
Races- AoC is supposed to be humans. That's the novels. Not sure why you'd expect elves or strange races there. Aion is a three years old. That's not a brand new world class 2011 AAA mmo.
Travel- AoC and Aion are not brand new AAA 'world class' mmos in 2011. I wouldn't expect them to have extensive travel.
No activities for daily life- AoC and Aion aren't AAA world class mmos made in 2011. I wouldn't expect them to have crop harvesting and other things. The artifacts do not stimulate exploration. The world is small and in one zone you can stay in several spots and get your artifacts without moving much, OR you could just buy them on the auction house.
I agree RIFT 'isn't worse' as you say, than other MMOs but that's not the issue. When I see new products come out on the market, I would expect.. new features. If there are things other people are already doing and have done for years before, I come to expect them as standard in the newest game declaring itself a world class AAA mmo.
Note, I keep saying "World class AAA mmo" because that's what RIFT calls itself. To then lower the expectations by saying so and so doesn't do this doesn't make your product look better. It actually makes it look worse if it doesn't have any more newer features than an older game that you'd expect.
You sound like you would expect an immersive role-playing experience in a mmo in 2011. Sorry, but you will not find that anymore - gone are the days of virtual worlds, welcome to the super-fast instant-gratification dumbed-down console-games-with-online-modus. And this evolution of the genre was no accident - it was done on purpose by the lead game designers of Blizzard. Have a look at http://www.wolfsheadonline.com/?p=5610#a7ba1
Well, that's what I meant. They didn't say 'this many boxes' or 'this many subs', that's why I was surprised when you implied that they'd stated hard figures. As for bad news, I don't know. MMO companies who had less sales or player activity than Rift still announced their box sales or initial sub numbers, and people didn't regard those figures of those companies as 'bad news', so maybe Trion people have different reasons for not mentioning them, ever think of that?
Just like when Blizzard didn't announce their subs for a while, it didn't mean bad news or population diving as some people thought, or in reverse, just like losing 600k subs could be considered 'bad news' but it didn't prevent Blizzard people from announcing it anyway?
Companies can have several reasons and motives for announcing or not announcing info, beyond the simplistic 'bad news' motif.
As far as the things about what Trion said involving things I (note "I") would expect in a "world class MMO title" released in 2011, I listed what I think should be in those games. That's based on what came before those games and also what other games are doing at the same time.
The games you listed with no housing didn't release in 2011. WAR, AION, WoW.. all those games are years older than RIFT, not months. I wouldn't expect them in those as standard. But certainly today I would expect that in any 'AAA' title. If you don't have that you better have something else that shows why you didn't have it in.
(snips stuff)
Ok, fair enough. You gave your opinion regarding what you consider a world class AAA title. Pointing towards a 2-3 year difference with other MMO's as a huge gap in tech or features is however just silly and a very, very weak argument btw.
But, you're right, it's your opinion and what you're looking for in an AAA MMORPG, that can be different for everyone.
However, when it comes to production value, I think that most people will consider Rift in the group of AAA MMORPG titles as WoW, EQ2, LotrO, Aion, AoC, WAR, and so on, and not of a 'B level' where MMO's like STO, CO, DDO, DCUO, APB, Global Agenda and such are regarded to be of. Compared with that 2nd group including other new MMORPG's like FFXIV, Earthrise and DCUO, Rift is without a doubt a 'world class AAA MMORPG' that fits very well in that 1st list of AAA MMO's.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
God, the OP makes me feel like a freak, 'cause I actually really enjoy the RIft story and lore.
Trust me, you are not the freak in this equation... Yes, Rift is a lot of what people complain about. It is very much your standard themepark MMOG with a couple of interesting twists. It never claimed to be anything else and in fact went out of it's way to make that clear. Unfortunately some people can't see the forest through the trees.
I'm still gobsmacked that people still believe this..... watch this Beta trailer and then rethink your words, Rift claimed to be so much more than what they released......
"complete means launching with everything you expect from a world class AAA MMO"
"Next gen means it will advance the genre the day it ships"
I almost thought I was watching a trailer for SW:TOR there for a second...
That line is still what gets me about RIFT.
As the newest mmo made in 2011, some of the things that weren't there that I would expect at launch:
- Guild banks.
- Housing.
- Extensive pet system.
- Several (more than two) starting areas.
- Diverse and varied wardrobe/gear selection.
- Interesting races other than 'humans' reskinned/resized.
- Travel system (in addition to horse mounts) involving boats or air flight.
- More content for players which lend immersion of daily life in Telara such as fishing or crop harvesting.
- Larger maps.
Rift had some things right but they certainly didn't live up to that hyped line. Even F2P games you come to 'expect' those, let alone a AAA title.
I'm not even going to touch on advancing the genre the day it ships as that's a flat out lie, which needs no real discussion from a player perspective.
Thank you Popinjay, I'm gald I'm not the only one who saw this and that was the whole point of my post that seem to annoy a certain member of these boards. Rift was none of the things quoted in the video.
Cal.
This doom and gloom thread was brought to you by Chin Up the new ultra high caffeine soft drink for gamers who just need that boost of happiness after a long forum session.
Rift had a 30% retention of its player base but not even its players.
Rift went in 4 months from 32K+ to 9K in playing sessions on Xfire.
Rift went from having 5.2 K Xfire players in March to 1.9K .So where you get that 50% retention rate from?
Bullshit, if you want to do it right, you take the player numbers of various days, not the hours of course like you do, everyone spends more hours in the first weeks than later. Player numbers ranged from 4600 to 5200, now they hover around 1900-2000. Do the math yourself, that's a a current 40% player retention based on averages. The last week of May, 3 months after launch, it had an average 50-55% player retention of its post-launch playerbase.
I am new here, but I have seen your extensive posting in defending the industry.
Are you by any chance an industry chill perhaps? Because if that's the case: I thought this is a place for MMO players not industry defenders ?
The industry was not helped by games like Rift,
That word spread already long ago over the internet.
Hmm... new you say, yet you are very familiar with some posters enough to assume (falsely btw) their stances... extensive Rift bashing, misinterpreting Xfire figures, overtly defensive and praising of WoW/Blizzard and generally negative towards other MMO's? Hmmm... sounds familiar.... if you say so that you're new, well, whatever you say, I guess.
I get some deja vue though, I remember clashing with someone else regarding Rift who was heavily into bashing Rift using XFire figures to predict its fall within a month after launch, someone who was only really positive about WoW and Blizzard, I think he was the biggest WoW fan(boi) on these forums for years, often emerging under different names. One of them was 'zorndorf' I heard. I haven't seen him for a while now.
Well, if you say you're new then I guess that's it, your way of posting and argumenting only sounded very familiar, a very typical unique mix of style, stances and arguments used. Don't see it often in that combination, in fact, only seen it with one person, that former poster Zorndorf (+ aliases). Or maybe 2 persons now, I guess
It's quite insulting to accuse other people of being shills btw, only because you don't agree with their arguments. It's also interesting to see that you apparently just 'recognize' other posters being shils, being new here as you say you are, it's far more logical and common sense if that accusation would happen by someone I clashed with before on these forums under a different name, one who has shown a petty antipathy before towards some other posters.
The fact that you dislike all other MMO's besides WoW, doesn't mean that you're right, or that others should too. Use better arguments next time, not petty, immature ones. It reminds too quickly of other posters who did the same and who always abruptly stopped posting after a while. Only to see someone else emerge some time after that, with the exact same style, arguments and viewpoints.
I was talking about your recent talk of SW'TOR when I made that remark but at the same time I now took the opportunity to browse a little further in history and apparently you think you are an authority over here. Defending the industry and new games as if it were a capital crime to put question marks behind pr talk. It may come as a surprise to you, but not many would accept these personal attacks on someone who put some figures behind your conclusions. You didn't answer on topic either.
Apparently I struck some strings by claiming that a game which lowered its price to 9 dollars and deleted 32 servers a mere 4 months after launch can seriously be questioned in its playing value.
You may spread any word of course, but it would be better to look around sometimes and see that a few million people play games which don' agree with your views of honey and milk in mmo land. And for God's sake what has Wow or earlier posters got to do with your attitude ? I will no longer repeat those above remarks
The problem is that Mav is arguing what he thinks he is reading not what is actually written by the poster and then he tries to back it up with bogus figures that have no factual source, then when you ask for proof he tells you to find it yourself, not a great debating style. If you are going to spout numbers back them up with a source or they are just meaningless numbers.
It also amazes me that many posters seem to be intelligent but lack a fundamental common sense, no game that shuts 32 servers in the first 4 months, drops prices every month since release to a rock bottom $9.99, has buddy weekends in the second month, opens a trial in the third, allows free transfers in the 4th and puts out ambiguous numbers like "approaching 1 million sales" or "2 million accounts made" is doing well and holding a strong playerbase. They tried to pull the wall over players eyes with all the over the top marketing but when it came down to it players saw a shallow, easy, repetitive, lackluster game and are now looking elsewhere for their MMO fix.
Cal.
This doom and gloom thread was brought to you by Chin Up the new ultra high caffeine soft drink for gamers who just need that boost of happiness after a long forum session.
The OP is totally right. It's about time somebody developed a challenging, deep MMO again. We need more stuff to do in the world, better crafting, more challenging combat, better solo content for those nightly hours when nobody is online, better economy, places to go, stuff to see.
Who cares if a 4 year old isnt able to play it?
Surely there is a market for something better than this? I'll buy, i have the money, why isnt it available?
Apprently the masses still want the holy trinity and epixxxxx.
The OP is totally right. It's about time somebody developed a challenging, deep MMO again. We need more stuff to do in the world, better crafting, more challenging combat, better solo content for those nightly hours when nobody is online, better economy, places to go, stuff to see.
Who cares if a 4 year old isnt able to play it?
Unfourtunately, for you and me, the corporate bean counters do...
Rift lacks combat depth. Yes the graphics may look pretty but its a childs game really. I mean its easier to play than WOW and if WOW is easy enough for kids to play then is Rift catering to newborns?
Comments
Actually you wasted some days while leveling in Rift. On the other hand you enjoyed socializing in eq while grinding. There was a reason for the so-called downtime in eq - this was the perfect time to start chatting. In Rift (like in WoW) you just don't chat, you are there for killing and looting. You could run around with NPC mercenaries and would have a similar experience.
Not to mention the immersive feeling of a world that Norrath was compared to the quest-hub-train that Rift/WoW is.
And not to mention the so-called endgame in Rift/WoW compared to the endless journey in eq.
There is so much wrong with these dumbed down games you would not even believe that somebody really pays money for this crap.
Currently playing: EverQuest
Waiting for Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen
There's still hope,at least some companies are trying to better the gameplay experience.
In the land of Predators,the lion does not fear the jackals...
There is no bubble, I work with facts. WAR had a lower retention rate than Rift had after 1-2 months, looking at Rift's figures in both Xfire and Raptr Rift even now has managed to hover around the 40-45% of its launch period figures.
So yes, it's doing better than a lot of those other MMO's did.
And Aion is no comparison: people might consider it a fail in the US, but looking globally Aion still has 70-100 servers worldwide, to give an indication, Aion catered to almost a million players in the west with only about 30 servers. Yes, I'm including all servers for if we don't, the 6-7 million WoW players in China/Asia should be discounted as well.
So, looking at it worldwide I'd say Aion is still a thriving success, and with 200-300 million dollar revenues for 2010 I also expect Aion to still have a million players and more.
So far, Rift seems (rough guessing) to be holding 350-400k players and having a better player retention than most other AAA MMORPG's of the last couple of years, which is pretty good for a little new themepark MMO of a newcomer company. Besides that, there's far less outcries and bitter indignation than seen around a WAR, AoC, FFXIV or DCUO, or even an Aion with the 'boring grind' complaints that ran rampant back then. The majority of people that do leave Rift do so without any hard feelings, which is quite differently from the people that left those other games.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
You're clouded by nostalgia. There really wasn't anything terribly fun about super slow grinding or de-levelling back in EQ. It maybe gave you a false sense of accomplishment because you wasted 8 hours grinding half a level. How is reducing this repetitive tedium dumbing down? We look so fondly back at EQ because for many of us it was our first MMO and it was shiney and new.
Actually you wasted some days while leveling in Rift. On the other hand you enjoyed socializing in eq while grinding. There was a reason for the so-called downtime in eq - this was the perfect time to start chatting. In Rift (like in WoW) you just don't chat, you are there for killing and looting. You could run around with NPC mercenaries and would have a similar experience.
Not to mention the immersive feeling of a world that Norrath was compared to the quest-hub-train that Rift/WoW is.
And not to mention the so-called endgame in Rift/WoW compared to the endless journey in eq.
There is so much wrong with these dumbed down games you would not even believe that somebody really pays money for this crap.
VERY well said here. MMO fans make me laugh. If anything isn't WoW then it's not "really a MMO". Hellgate, fps titles, etc. They completely ignore the community and RP factors that actually made the older games enjoyable. I quit WoW, Rift and will let AoC expire for the same reason - there is no more community in MMOs. They are all the mindless alt rush of WoW. If that's all they offer then I'll take Halo:Reach and the instant satisfaction of nuking Covenant for free over $15/ month for dailies. As MMOs become endgame raid focused markets in the west will get smaller. Older players won't keep wasting the time while younger players have FAR more and better options than existed years ago.I agree 100% with OP. Sooooo tried of kill this and kill that MMORPGs for no real sense or purpose. That is why I am taking a rest from MMORPGs until a worthy one is released.
Somehow it feels like MMORPGs are becoming as shallow as console, fighting MMORPGs. There is simply nothing else of substance to do beside kill X for Y reward.
My gaming blog
This is exactly how i felt after reading OP's post. Why to scream and cry when you stick your hand in fire on purpose? even though you know you are going to get burned..yet again. One of the main reasons why i never take his posts seriously, neither should you or anyone else for that matter.
I'm actually not sure what to make of the video, on one hand, I really like the idea of puzzle looting, but on the other hand, thinking having to minimizes the game client to go to the internet to search for clues......yikes, considering the heavy graphics engine, you will need a hefty loaded rig to do that efficiently, playing the game in window format causes frame rate issues and especially if you have dual-screen setup =, but I like the idea of alternate reality gaming in MMO
As for the combat, I like how lighting affects when you are in water and all that, but the tank,dps,healer setup isn't what I had in mind for the game, since it is a skill based progression =
How much WoW could a WoWhater hate, if a WoWhater could hate WoW?
As much WoW as a WoWhater would, if a WoWhater could hate WoW.
The one thing we don't have as any sort of certainty is Trion isn't a company that has to release sales figures quarterly like Mythic is/was. They could essentially run RIFT from Day 1 and never declare any subs whatsoever because they aren't legally accountable like Warhammer was.
Then there is the whole claim Trion says "Our server is next gen and can hold blah blah blah amount of players" so they won't ever say how many 'Full' or 'Medium' is, which leaves people to guess on their own.
These were the numbers for WAR according to Wiki, which are VERY similiar to RIFT:
In one way that's positive because without being obligated to release actual numbers and earnings, a company simply won't do it. One cannot make them announce bad news. In another way, it makes it even easier to tell when an independant company is probably not doing as well as it expected.
Trion came out and said "We sold THISSSSSS many boxes, had THISSSSSS many registered accounts, and THISSSSSS many subs." They did not have to but they did because it was GOOD news and they couldn't wait to share it.
The thing is, if Trion doesn't come out with something at the six month mark announcing what their subs are at, that's a strong indication that things aren't good. No company will ever hold back GOOD news and will beg anyone with a microphone to listen.
When things are going mediocre/bad for any company.. "Numbers aren't important. We focus on quality, not quantity" is the excuse.
If November comes (when all the original six months subs are long gone, that's when we should be hearing.. something. If not, there's trouble.
"TO MICHAEL!"
That said, I don't mind that and actually I love a graphics heavy game. It lends for more immersive play and keeps me more interested than flatter looking graphical games. As long as it doesn't have as many bugs as Conan had, I'm all for them setting a standard of decent cards/rigs only to play.
The most interesting things though are they say you can have 500 skills at your disposal (drool) and looking at the wheel in the vid was really sweet.
The other is how the characters are actual humans, which makes it extremely easy to relate to instead of "I'm an Elf. I'm smart and stand like a stick is up my butt." or "I'm a Dwarf. I like to drink beer. Herdy Derp."
That stuff is so gag-worthy now.
"TO MICHAEL!"
I almost thought I was watching a trailer for SW:TOR there for a second...
Waiting: CU, WildStar, Destiny, Eternal Crusade
Playing: ESO,DCUO
Played: LotRO,RIFT,ToR,Warhammer, Runescape
Please tell me the awesome and amazing sandbox MMO you are playing where every day is something new and it's not the same old repetive crap.
This themepark vs sandbox crap has gotta end. It's got nothing to do with being a "themepark" (god I hate that stupid term), is has everything to do we being un-imaginative.
You know it's a sad state of affairs when every reviewer gives it a 9 because it had a smoth launch with few bugs, and its pretty - then they go on to comment about how the gameplay and mechanics are so-so.
I'm still gobsmacked that people still believe this..... watch this Beta trailer and then rethink your words, Rift claimed to be so much more than what they released......
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldI3ypm1gHg
"Rift is the complete next gen in online gaming"
"complete means launching with everything you expect from a world class AAA MMO"
"Next gen means it will advance the genre the day it ships"
I almost thought I was watching a trailer for SW:TOR there for a second...
That line is still what gets me about RIFT.
As the newest mmo made in 2011, some of the things that weren't there that I would expect at launch:
- Guild banks.
- Housing.
- Extensive pet system.
- Several (more than two) starting areas.
- Diverse and varied wardrobe/gear selection.
- Interesting races other than 'humans' reskinned/resized.
- Travel system (in addition to horse mounts) involving boats or air flight.
- More content for players which lend immersion of daily life in Telara such as fishing or crop harvesting.
- Larger maps.
Rift had some things right but they certainly didn't live up to that hyped line. Even F2P games you come to 'expect' those, let alone a AAA title.
I'm not even going to touch on advancing the genre the day it ships as that's a flat out lie, which needs no real discussion from a player perspective.
"TO MICHAEL!"
I'd really love to know where this whole "AAA" bs came from. As far as I can tell, it's a forum based ideal with no objective and industry based research behind it. That being said, your realism is appreciated. Titles that have come out recently, and arguably most other titles in the past, do no have these supposed AAA features. I feel it would be advantageous for the gaming at large to organize and define what precisely is required in these kind of games. I feel your list touches on the mechanical features, but alot of titles are missing a deeper aesthetic that would make the game worthwile. For instance, F2P games I find have some horrible class design. I don't want to play a class called a Psykeeper or something else silly. Think of something original or call the class what it is in common terms.
I hate to be pessimistic but I guarantee you could negate 95% of the games on this site. They're crap. Pure crap. You log in and see new advertisements for the next f2p failure. I wish companies would just stop, stop making this and invest your capital elsewhere. Take a slower approach and think things out.
All that being said, Rift is at a best B game. I would put very few in the A rating. It does nothing worth noting. Nothing. It doesn't even polish it well. It's another example of "Hey, we have a formula. Put some elves on it and release. Add some pomp and circumstance for that saccharin flavor. "
My suggestion for the community is start letting these games fail. Let the industry calm down a bit. It's like the Sunset Strip right after a Motley Crue concert and damn it's sticky.
1st, they will have an in-game browser on your character's smartphone. Also 2nd, about the tank healer etc, they don't design encounters to be "you need 1 tank 1 healer 3 dps" but to be "ok you need this much dps, you need this much heals, and you need this much survivability across the group".
2 people with 1 healing skill for example, could fill the role of 1 healer. 2 offtanky DPS players can switch bosses between them and still deliver big dps. Or they could off heal. Or, you could ignore having a tank completely, and use 2 CC oriented people who can control-lock the boss.
So while it's possible to play this game as a holy trinity, and probably will be what the "scratching-at-the-surface" crowd will do (your typical Rift player) - there is going to be several layers and dimensions for more inquisitive players to play very, very differently.
A few comments to your remarks:
after 3 months WAR had a player retention of 35-40%, Rift had one of 50-55%.
I don't know where Trion came out that they sold 'this many boxes' or 'this many subs', iirc they never mentioned it, do you have links? Or did you mean Mythic Entertainment?
It's a lot of bla, the talk about expectations. Like I showed, a lot of the things you mentioned other MMORPG's that are considered AAA don't have those as well. In fact, I limited myself to just a few AAA MMO's, but if you take a look at others you'll find that there's quite some things missing as well.
Bottomline, Rift isn't worse than other MMORPG's that are considered AAA when it comes to its features. This could trigger a whole 'we should expect a lot more of AAA titles than we have seen given us over the past 5-6 years' but frankly, that wasn't what the discussion is about. The thing I replied on is the remark that former AAA titles should have made us expect more from Rift; however, a look at the list of examples above clearly shows that what presumably was expected from Rift as an AAA title was often lacking as well in former AAA MMO's, and not just 1 or 2.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Just because someone doesn't like to agree with your view on games, doesn't give you a reason to attack people personally
Manners, that word forgotten already long ago over the internet.
Honestly, who cares if Rift is failing or what not, if it is failing, it will die, you don't need to hate and put it on fire. Unconstructive post is unconstructive. A game is lowering the price, they call it fail, a game charges at full price, they call it overprice, there is no pleasing in this industry.
How much WoW could a WoWhater hate, if a WoWhater could hate WoW?
As much WoW as a WoWhater would, if a WoWhater could hate WoW.
Hmm... new you say, yet you are very familiar with some posters enough to assume (falsely btw) their stances... extensive Rift bashing, misinterpreting Xfire figures, overtly defensive and praising of WoW/Blizzard and generally negative towards other MMO's? Hmmm... sounds familiar.... if you say so that you're new, well, whatever you say, I guess.
I get some deja vue though, I remember clashing with someone else regarding Rift who was heavily into bashing Rift using XFire figures to predict its fall within a month after launch, someone who was only really positive about WoW and Blizzard, I think he was the biggest WoW fan(boi) on these forums for years, often emerging under different names. One of them was 'zorndorf' I heard. I haven't seen him for a while now.
Well, if you say you're new then I guess that's it, your way of posting and argumenting only sounded very familiar, a very typical unique mix of style, stances and arguments used. Don't see it often in that combination, in fact, only seen it with one person, that former poster Zorndorf (+ aliases). Or maybe 2 persons now, I guess
It's quite insulting to accuse other people of being shills btw, only because you don't agree with their arguments. It's also interesting to see that you apparently just 'recognize' other posters being shils, being new here as you say you are, it's far more logical and common sense if that accusation would happen by someone I clashed with before on these forums under a different name, one who has shown a petty antipathy before towards some other posters.
The fact that you dislike all other MMO's besides WoW, doesn't mean that you're right, or that others should too. Use better arguments next time, not petty, immature ones. It reminds too quickly of other posters who did the same and who always abruptly stopped posting after a while. Only to see someone else emerge some time after that, with the exact same style, arguments and viewpoints.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
after 3 months WAR had a player retention of 35-40%, Rift had one of 50-55%.
I don't know where Trion came out that they sold 'this many boxes' or 'this many subs', iirc they never mentioned it, do you have links? Or did you mean Mythic Entertainment?
Originally posted by popinjay
As the newest mmo made in 2011, some of the things that weren't there that I would expect at launch:
- Guild banks.
- Housing (not in Aion, WoW, AoC)
- Extensive pet system (excuse me? What do you mean with 'extensive pet system'? Doesn't sound standard in most MMO's).
- Several (more than two) starting areas (AoC has 1 starting area, Aion 2).
- Diverse and varied wardrobe/gear selection (enough AAA MMO's that haven't that).
- Interesting races other than 'humans' reskinned/resized (AoC and Aion is human oriented, LotrO has no non-humanoid races).
- Travel system (in addition to horse mounts) involving boats or air flight (not in AoC or LotrO).
- More content for players which lend immersion of daily life in Telara such as fishing or crop harvesting (no crop harvesting in AoC or WoW, you do have collection gathering which stimulates exploration in Rift).
- Larger maps (again, Aion and Aion aren't exactly immensely huge as well).
Rift had some things right but they certainly didn't live up to that hyped line. Even F2P games you come to 'expect' those, let alone a AAA title.
It's a lot of bla, the talk about expectations. Like I showed, a lot of the things you mentioned other MMORPG's that are considered AAA don't have those as well. In fact, I limited myself to just a few AAA MMO's, but if you take a look at others you'll find that there's quite some things missing as well.
Bottomline, Rift isn't worse than other MMORPG's that are considered AAA when it comes to its features. This could trigger a whole 'we should expect a lot more of AAA titles than we have seen given us over the past 5-6 years' but frankly, that wasn't what the discussion is about. The thing I replied on is the remark that former AAA titles should have made us expect more from Rift; however, a look at the list of examples above clearly shows that what presumably was expected from Rift as an AAA title was often lacking as well in former AAA MMO's, and not just 1 or 2.
Rift made announcements of one million registered accounts they had. I know you saw that, it was hard to miss.
They also went on to further clarify things when asked about subcriptions going up "I can confirm that when Hal said 'subscribers' he meant 'people with active subscriptions', not 'people who have recently subscribed'. Our net trend, including people who unsubscribe, is upwards./aahz" Exact numbers aren't given and I doubt they will ever be since they aren't accountable to shareholders like Mythic was/is. Trion will only announce numbers if they are good or things are in their favor. If they aren't, why spread bad news when you don't have to ever?
As far as the things about what Trion said involving things I (note "I") would expect in a "world class MMO title" released in 2011, I listed what I think should be in those games. That's based on what came before those games and also what other games are doing at the same time.
The games you listed with no housing didn't release in 2011. WAR, AION, WoW.. all those games are years older than RIFT, not months. I wouldn't expect them in those as standard. But certainly today I would expect that in any 'AAA' title. If you don't have that you better have something else that shows why you didn't have it in.
Pet system in WoW is extensive. Pet (or companion) system in SWTOR is going to be extensive. That's what I would expect from a AAA mmo in 2011, it's been done before. And I'm not talking fluff animals either.
Starting Areas- AoC and AION are older games. I don't expect more than two zones from those. In 2011, I expect more than two small zones from a AAA world class game.
Diverse gear- You excuse isn't good. To say 'not enough AAA mmos don't have it' is playing down to OLD expectations. Doesn't matter that Ultima Online doesn't have an extensive gear selection. It's an older game, not a brand new world class AAA mmo in 2011.
Races- AoC is supposed to be humans. That's the novels. Not sure why you'd expect elves or strange races there. Aion is a three years old. That's not a brand new world class 2011 AAA mmo.
Travel- AoC and Aion are not brand new AAA 'world class' mmos in 2011. I wouldn't expect them to have extensive travel.
No activities for daily life- AoC and Aion aren't AAA world class mmos made in 2011. I wouldn't expect them to have crop harvesting and other things. The artifacts do not stimulate exploration. The world is small and in one zone you can stay in several spots and get your artifacts without moving much, OR you could just buy them on the auction house.
I agree RIFT 'isn't worse' as you say, than other MMOs but that's not the issue. When I see new products come out on the market, I would expect.. new features. If there are things other people are already doing and have done for years before, I come to expect them as standard in the newest game declaring itself a world class AAA mmo.
Note, I keep saying "World class AAA mmo" because that's what RIFT calls itself. To then lower the expectations by saying so and so doesn't do this doesn't make your product look better. It actually makes it look worse if it doesn't have any more newer features than an older game that you'd expect.
"TO MICHAEL!"
You sound like you would expect an immersive role-playing experience in a mmo in 2011. Sorry, but you will not find that anymore - gone are the days of virtual worlds, welcome to the super-fast instant-gratification dumbed-down console-games-with-online-modus. And this evolution of the genre was no accident - it was done on purpose by the lead game designers of Blizzard. Have a look at http://www.wolfsheadonline.com/?p=5610#a7ba1
Currently playing: EverQuest
Waiting for Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen
Ok, fair enough. You gave your opinion regarding what you consider a world class AAA title. Pointing towards a 2-3 year difference with other MMO's as a huge gap in tech or features is however just silly and a very, very weak argument btw.
But, you're right, it's your opinion and what you're looking for in an AAA MMORPG, that can be different for everyone.
However, when it comes to production value, I think that most people will consider Rift in the group of AAA MMORPG titles as WoW, EQ2, LotrO, Aion, AoC, WAR, and so on, and not of a 'B level' where MMO's like STO, CO, DDO, DCUO, APB, Global Agenda and such are regarded to be of. Compared with that 2nd group including other new MMORPG's like FFXIV, Earthrise and DCUO, Rift is without a doubt a 'world class AAA MMORPG' that fits very well in that 1st list of AAA MMO's.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Thank you Popinjay, I'm gald I'm not the only one who saw this and that was the whole point of my post that seem to annoy a certain member of these boards. Rift was none of the things quoted in the video.
Cal.
This doom and gloom thread was brought to you by Chin Up the new ultra high caffeine soft drink for gamers who just need that boost of happiness after a long forum session.
The problem is that Mav is arguing what he thinks he is reading not what is actually written by the poster and then he tries to back it up with bogus figures that have no factual source, then when you ask for proof he tells you to find it yourself, not a great debating style. If you are going to spout numbers back them up with a source or they are just meaningless numbers.
It also amazes me that many posters seem to be intelligent but lack a fundamental common sense, no game that shuts 32 servers in the first 4 months, drops prices every month since release to a rock bottom $9.99, has buddy weekends in the second month, opens a trial in the third, allows free transfers in the 4th and puts out ambiguous numbers like "approaching 1 million sales" or "2 million accounts made" is doing well and holding a strong playerbase. They tried to pull the wall over players eyes with all the over the top marketing but when it came down to it players saw a shallow, easy, repetitive, lackluster game and are now looking elsewhere for their MMO fix.
Cal.
This doom and gloom thread was brought to you by Chin Up the new ultra high caffeine soft drink for gamers who just need that boost of happiness after a long forum session.
The OP is totally right. It's about time somebody developed a challenging, deep MMO again. We need more stuff to do in the world, better crafting, more challenging combat, better solo content for those nightly hours when nobody is online, better economy, places to go, stuff to see.
Who cares if a 4 year old isnt able to play it?
Surely there is a market for something better than this? I'll buy, i have the money, why isnt it available?
Apprently the masses still want the holy trinity and epixxxxx.
WOW,eq2,Vanguard,WAR,LOTRO,AOC,Rift Aion, SWTOR, TERA.
Currently playing GW2.
Unfourtunately, for you and me, the corporate bean counters do...
My gaming blog
Rift lacks combat depth. Yes the graphics may look pretty but its a childs game really. I mean its easier to play than WOW and if WOW is easy enough for kids to play then is Rift catering to newborns?