The problem is that Mav is arguing what he thinks he is reading not what is actually written by the poster and then he tries to back it up with bogus figures that have no factual source, then when you ask for proof he tells you to find it yourself, not a great debating style. If you are going to spout numbers back them up with a source or they are just meaningless numbers.
This again, really, Calerxes? It's starting to sound like you're confusing this discussion with the one I had with you, one that you apparently have kind of a grudge about reading nonsense comments like this one. A bit petty and immature, don't you think?
Forgetting for a moment the discussion you're referring to, the one where you felt grieved by my disagreeing with your biased opinion enough that you keep referring to it and accusing others of actions that you do yourself, it sounds quite simple to me: the guy here quoted Xfire, I quoted it back using the same figures. All quite simple, but let's take it step by step, shall we?
- he said that Xfire showed 5200 players in its launch weeks, I say that when you do it right, you take the figures of several days of that period, which results in player numbers of 4600-5200
- then he asks where I got my % from, I say that the current Xfire player figures range from 1900-2000 (well, 2200 yesterday but that's a peak, just like 5200 was a peak)
- I said 'do the math yourself', what, do I have to do that too? Ok, here it goes: 1900-2200 related to the 4600-5200 from the launch weeks equals an average 41.8%
- that's 41.8 % of its initial launch weeks' playerbase based on Xfire figures
- At the end of May, 3 months after launch, the proportion of the launch weeks's numbers was 50-55%
- he asked me how I got those numbers, I provided my argument using the same source of information he was using.
All very logical deduction and simple math, with numbers that can be found at the mentioned source very easily.
Anyway, this discussion about current player base has gone way off OP topic, which had nothing to do with what Rift has as player base, but was about someone, Elikal, who had grown tired of Rift, just as he has grown tired of I think all other MMO's he has played this last year. Two of the arguments he mentions, I think, are Rift's biggest problem: it's quite small in content compared to MMO's like WoW and LotrO. It's also very small in worldsize compared to those 2 MMO's, although maybe not that small when compared to the worldsize of AoC, or Aion (no idea how large WAR is).
And a 3rd argument, Rift is obviously a themepark MMO, anyone who has grown sick of that MMO game style, of which there are many on these forums (else many of them wouldn't be MMO homeless as they claim they are), will obviously also dislike Rift intensely.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Originally posted by Beachcomber Originally posted by codefusion already knew this after playing the first 20 minutes of beta. people kept insisting it was good... those were the ones that got burned from WoW or Aion and PRAYED for a better MMO. they wanted something to replace it so much. wishful thinking. welcome back to WoW / Aion.
Sounds like you know everything, when in fact other peoples opinions are as valid as yours
He never said other people could not have opinions but if you are going to defend this game then he will tell you that you are wrong. That is his opinion and that is valid.
Probably a lot more valid than your point of view in defending this ******************* game.
after 3 months WAR had a player retention of 35-40%, Rift had one of 50-55%.
I reacted by saying 1900 to 5200 is not 50-50% retention rate. Then you came up with the 40% argument and the sudden boost the game has viewed in the last 3 days because they sell it for the price of 3 hamburgers ($ 9.9).
In fact you see the small increase every time they drop their price.
Every time the game dropped they boosted it by putting on a 50%, a 75 % price drop. Just like the last 3 days.
Free weekend play, free trials after 2 months, price cuts from 50% after 3 months to 75% after 4 months,
A succesful game with high retention rates doesn't have to do this. Rift had more price cuts in months (and server cuts) than most MMO's reach in years.
The mistake you make is a simple one:
- you use a number of 1900, which is from now, 4-4.5 months after launch, those aren't figures of 3 months after launch.
- 3 months after launch is the end of May, start of June. At that time the retention rate was 50-55%
- the figure of 40-45%, I have been stating that one even before your post where you ask about the 50-50% retention rate
- this 40-45% figure wasn't based on just one day, but player numbers over the course of a week, which imo is a more reliable method than just looking at incidental peaks or valleys.
- see? Easy logic and math, also using Xfire numbers
For the rest, it's a bit silly to criticise the Trion people of taking actions to attract people to their game, you might as well complain about their fast rate of responding quickly with content updates and patches which is also more than other MMO companies did. Compared to other MMO's of the past 5 years, so far Rift is doing better than most when it comes to retention rates. Then again, we're comparing with an AoC, Aion, WAR, LotrO, Tabula Rasa, Vanguard, FFXIV, DCUO, which sadly enough represents the cream of the crop of all the MMORPG's that have come out in the past couple of years.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
My experience with Rift went like this. First few days were "Ooh and Ahh!" then a week or so later it was nore like "Ugh and Meh." I'm glad that some people are enjoying the game but for me as some have said the game just had no heart and soul.
And a 3rd argument, Rift is obviously a themepark MMO, anyone who has grown sick of that MMO game style, of which there are many on these forums (else many of them wouldn't be MMO homeless as they claim they are), will obviously also dislike Rift intensely.
I would say it's a definitely a themepark but one that's missing all the rides.
Trion doesn't even attempt to control how fast people progress in this latest version of a themepark on the mmo scene, but instead had made a direct effort to basically encourage the player to 50.
All the quest hubs were filled with multiple quests in the same areas, mobs were low-average health and you were forced to fight them because of the Exposed mechanic (which only recently got taken out last week). Even now Trion gives out a 5% exp boost to new players from 1-20 with a trinket for simply buying the game... you don't even need the collector's edition to get a bonus like that.
The problem is after this push to 50, the game basically just leaves you there and says "Ok, now go grind reputation and hit dungeons." There are no other 'rides' in the park to ride at this point as the PvP is lacking badly and rifts most people are tired of at this point as they offer no consequence to the main story or game and give little reward.
Rifts don't matter when if you leave them up as they will expire on their own in one hour anyways, so there's really no reason to shut them down anymore other than loot.
As themeparks go, WoW would be the entire Disney franchise and Rift would be something like Santa's Land in North Carolina, which is why they shouldn't be directly advertising against WoW because the first thing people will do is compare it to WoW, and RIFT loses like that.
Let's face it, what you describe is the problem of most themepark MMO's at level cap, the limited range of features and variety of content to do as soon as you hit level cap. Just take a look at what you could do in those other themepark MMO's in their first months after launch when people reached level cap.
As compared to other themepark MMO's excluding WoW, I don' think that Rift fares that bad at all. It isn't my MMO of choice, but it offers a feature set that's pretty solid for an AAA themepark MMORPG, one that equals other AAA themepark MMO's like LotrO, AoC, WAR, Aion and I'd say is better in delivery and total package than a FFXIV, Vanguard, Tabula Rasa, DCUO - which all can be considered AAA MMO's too in production value - and a lot of lesser titles.
Personally I think many people here project the issues they have with themepark MMO's in general, onto Rift. And yes, Rift is lacking as an AAA themepark MMORPG what people might hope for or want/need of an AAA MMORPG. But, being realistic, Rift is lacking less than most of those other MMORPG's were of the past 5 years when they launched.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Originally posted by MMO.Maverick Let's face it, what you describe is the problem of most themepark MMO's at level cap, the limited range of features and variety of content to do as soon as you hit level cap. Just take a look at what you could do in those other themepark MMO's in their first months after launch when people reached level cap. As compared to other themepark MMO's excluding WoW, I don' think that Rift fares that bad at all. It isn't my MMO of choice, but it offers a feature set that's pretty solid for an AAA themepark MMORPG, one that equals other AAA themepark MMO's like LotrO, AoC, WAR, Aion and I'd say is better in delivery and total package than a FFXIV, Vanguard, Tabula Rasa, DCUO - which all can be considered AAA MMO's too in production value - and a lot of lesser titles.
Personally I think many people here project the issues they have with themepark MMO's in general, onto Rift. And yes, Rift is lacking as an AAA themepark MMORPG what people might hope for or want/need of an AAA MMORPG. But, being realistic, Rift is lacking less than most of those other MMORPG's were of the past 5 years when they launched.
I agree with this sentiment overall. We agree on principle and overall message, just on details.
I'm starting to think RIFT isn't really a competitor for WoW. Sure it has elves, dwarves and the usual stuff but it really isn't that type of game that WoW is in spirit.
For example, I just saw this video of ArcheAge while it's in beta.
If you look at this world, the setting and what type of 'feel' it brings it evokes more of a "RIFT" feel than a WoW feel. This is the game RIFT has to fear because I think it's more in line with what people want to do.
WoW players will always play WoW because it's a great game overall with tons to do. RIFT players were basically people who left other games hoping for a more wide open, immersive experience that gives you the sense you can go anywhere and do anything. If you look at that ArcheAge video, that's exactly the feel you get from watching the toon run around in that world with everything scaled correctly.
Because of the type of game RIFT is (one dimensional dungeons and not enough rift consequence to the world) people looking for more of an open world feel but don't want themepark might try this out, given that there's more open world Pvp in it as well.
When you combine that with house/boat building and whatever else they have for crafters, this is the type of game RIFT should have been making.. not themepark.
That one city they are showing dwarfs what Sanctum and Meridian are as total cities combined, and the scale the toon is running around in is fabulous.
Hmm, I don't know why Rift should fear more of an ArcheAge than other MMO's. I'm actually very interested in the upcoming year, because I think all MMO's including WoW will face the effects of the avalanche of the next few AAA MMO's to come.
You're talking about a large city in AA? SWTOR has a city with Coruscant that is as large as a whole continent, and even its smaller cities can be as large as several zones. GW2's human capital dwarfs most other MMO cities in sheer awe and grandeur.
It's the impact of the collective power of a GW2, SWTOR, ArcheAge, The Secret World and TERA that I'm very interested in to see how they affect the MMO market. Their variety in features, their scope and their high quality, I'd find it odd if these together won't leave their mark on the MMO genre and influence player numbers of all other MMO's.
Especially when you realise that these MMO's will all appear within a year, which is kinda ironic when you realise that up till now it was usually only 1,2 and sometimes no great MMO in a year. Rift did a good kickoff for this new wave of blockbuster MMO's, but the real waves in the water will be made when those other MMO's arrive on the scene. imo
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Originally posted by MMO.Maverick Hmm, I don't know why Rift should fear more of an ArcheAge than other MMO's. I'm actually very interested in the upcoming year, because I think all MMO's including WoW will face the effects of the avalanche of the next few AAA MMO's to come.
I thought I gave my points. (btw.. change your pic huh? I had gotten used to that one)
I'm not sure if you saw the video there, if you didn't you should.
Ignoring the lag as it's alpha or beta mode, look at the city. Look at the far horizon. You don't see anything like that in RIFT. There is no sense of scale in the game at all.
When you run or jump in RIFT, it feels like you barely move. Look at the way in the AA vid, how the person is actually moving and jumping. It's about as good as Age of Conan.
But more importantly, SWTOR is a sci-fi theme game and games like 'pew pew' don't get everyone. Everyone doesnt like sci-fi and prefer more high fantasy.
Rift is high fantasy so that puts it directly in-line vs AA, not SWTOR, GW2 or The Secret World. That's why I think RIFT should worry about AA if it's done halfway decently.
Originally posted by baritone3kRift does a great job of making my favorite part of gaming graphically impressive and story driven. You just have to read the quests/the dialogue during the quests to get anything out of it. Context matters in Rift, and in that it succeeds.
sry but reading walls of text to feel the story is soooo last decade....
Rift is high fantasy so that puts it directly in-line vs AA, not SWTOR, GW2 or The Secret World. That's why I think RIFT should worry about AA if it's done halfway decently.
Hmm, well, to each their own opinion, I guess. I happen to disagree - LotrO, WoW, EQ2, Vanguard and Aion are high fantasy too - but so far it's speculations from both of us, what will happen when the other MMO's appear, including AA, we'll only know for sure when the moment is there.
I saw the video, I wasn't that impressed with the city in AA. If AA will interest me enough to give it a try, it won't be because its cities are magnificent wonders to behold, it'll be because of other factors. But, that applies to me, to each their own preferences
edit: yeah, I've got such a large pile of avatars, I thought it was time to switch again
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Hmm, well, to each their own opinion, I guess. I happen to disagree - LotrO, WoW, EQ2, Vanguard and Aion are high fantasy too - but so far it's speculations from both of us, what will happen when the other MMO's appear, including AA, we'll only know for sure when the moment is there.
That's true, but no one is lining up to play OLD high fantasy games like LotrO, WoW, EQ2, Vanguard and Aion. They've played them already. Two, three four and five years ago. Most people don't go back to old games like that. That's the only reason RIFT held against most of those games.. too old in the tooth for many. ArcheAge is going to be considerably younger than RIFT with more features at launch than RIFT will have at that time.
Just about anyone who likes that genre has already tried those games probably once. Same with RIFT, mostly anyone who has thought about a high fantasy game like RIFT has already tried it. That's one reason I say they are shutting down those 'trial' servers.. the market simply doesn't exist anymore for who would have played. It's not like there is 150,000 people still thinking "Hmmm.. wonder if I should try RIFT?" A few yeah, but not enough to fill 38 servers worth, so that's a shutdown.
ArcheAge is too early to say it's going to do well since it's alpha/beta mostly. But if people know that it has PvP in it (which it does), crafting, housing construction, crafting, boat battles, etc.. that is certainly more than RIFT is offering by a longshot.
I think the people who are going to play SWTOR, TSW and GW2 are mostly done with RIFT after four months, the rest of time now is just waiting to see about November.
Comments
This again, really, Calerxes?
It's starting to sound like you're confusing this discussion with the one I had with you, one that you apparently have kind of a grudge about reading nonsense comments like this one. A bit petty and immature, don't you think? 
Forgetting for a moment the discussion you're referring to, the one where you felt grieved by my disagreeing with your biased opinion enough that you keep referring to it and accusing others of actions that you do yourself, it sounds quite simple to me: the guy here quoted Xfire, I quoted it back using the same figures. All quite simple, but let's take it step by step, shall we?
- he said that Xfire showed 5200 players in its launch weeks, I say that when you do it right, you take the figures of several days of that period, which results in player numbers of 4600-5200
- then he asks where I got my % from, I say that the current Xfire player figures range from 1900-2000 (well, 2200 yesterday but that's a peak, just like 5200 was a peak)
- I said 'do the math yourself', what, do I have to do that too? Ok, here it goes: 1900-2200 related to the 4600-5200 from the launch weeks equals an average 41.8%
- that's 41.8 % of its initial launch weeks' playerbase based on Xfire figures
- At the end of May, 3 months after launch, the proportion of the launch weeks's numbers was 50-55%
- he asked me how I got those numbers, I provided my argument using the same source of information he was using.
All very logical deduction and simple math, with numbers that can be found at the mentioned source very easily.
Anyway, this discussion about current player base has gone way off OP topic, which had nothing to do with what Rift has as player base, but was about someone, Elikal, who had grown tired of Rift, just as he has grown tired of I think all other MMO's he has played this last year. Two of the arguments he mentions, I think, are Rift's biggest problem: it's quite small in content compared to MMO's like WoW and LotrO. It's also very small in worldsize compared to those 2 MMO's, although maybe not that small when compared to the worldsize of AoC, or Aion (no idea how large WAR is).
And a 3rd argument, Rift is obviously a themepark MMO, anyone who has grown sick of that MMO game style, of which there are many on these forums (else many of them wouldn't be MMO homeless as they claim they are), will obviously also dislike Rift intensely.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Rift is polished and looks ok, but it's also shallow, simplistic and has no replay value. *shrugs*
Let's play Fallen Earth (blind, 300 episodes)
Let's play Guild Wars 2 (blind, 45 episodes)
Sounds like you know everything, when in fact other peoples opinions are as valid as yours
He never said other people could not have opinions but if you are going to defend this game then he will tell you that you are wrong. That is his opinion and that is valid.
Probably a lot more valid than your point of view in defending this ******************* game.
The mistake you make is a simple one:
- you use a number of 1900, which is from now, 4-4.5 months after launch, those aren't figures of 3 months after launch.
- 3 months after launch is the end of May, start of June. At that time the retention rate was 50-55%
- the figure of 40-45%, I have been stating that one even before your post where you ask about the 50-50% retention rate
- this 40-45% figure wasn't based on just one day, but player numbers over the course of a week, which imo is a more reliable method than just looking at incidental peaks or valleys.
- see? Easy logic and math, also using Xfire numbers
For the rest, it's a bit silly to criticise the Trion people of taking actions to attract people to their game, you might as well complain about their fast rate of responding quickly with content updates and patches which is also more than other MMO companies did. Compared to other MMO's of the past 5 years, so far Rift is doing better than most when it comes to retention rates. Then again, we're comparing with an AoC, Aion, WAR, LotrO, Tabula Rasa, Vanguard, FFXIV, DCUO, which sadly enough represents the cream of the crop of all the MMORPG's that have come out in the past couple of years.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
My experience with Rift went like this. First few days were "Ooh and Ahh!" then a week or so later it was nore like "Ugh and Meh." I'm glad that some people are enjoying the game but for me as some have said the game just had no heart and soul.
No signature, I don't have a pen
Trion doesn't even attempt to control how fast people progress in this latest version of a themepark on the mmo scene, but instead had made a direct effort to basically encourage the player to 50.
All the quest hubs were filled with multiple quests in the same areas, mobs were low-average health and you were forced to fight them because of the Exposed mechanic (which only recently got taken out last week). Even now Trion gives out a 5% exp boost to new players from 1-20 with a trinket for simply buying the game... you don't even need the collector's edition to get a bonus like that.
The problem is after this push to 50, the game basically just leaves you there and says "Ok, now go grind reputation and hit dungeons." There are no other 'rides' in the park to ride at this point as the PvP is lacking badly and rifts most people are tired of at this point as they offer no consequence to the main story or game and give little reward.
Rifts don't matter when if you leave them up as they will expire on their own in one hour anyways, so there's really no reason to shut them down anymore other than loot.
As themeparks go, WoW would be the entire Disney franchise and Rift would be something like Santa's Land in North Carolina, which is why they shouldn't be directly advertising against WoW because the first thing people will do is compare it to WoW, and RIFT loses like that.
"TO MICHAEL!"
Let's face it, what you describe is the problem of most themepark MMO's at level cap, the limited range of features and variety of content to do as soon as you hit level cap. Just take a look at what you could do in those other themepark MMO's in their first months after launch when people reached level cap.
As compared to other themepark MMO's excluding WoW, I don' think that Rift fares that bad at all. It isn't my MMO of choice, but it offers a feature set that's pretty solid for an AAA themepark MMORPG, one that equals other AAA themepark MMO's like LotrO, AoC, WAR, Aion and I'd say is better in delivery and total package than a FFXIV, Vanguard, Tabula Rasa, DCUO - which all can be considered AAA MMO's too in production value - and a lot of lesser titles.
Personally I think many people here project the issues they have with themepark MMO's in general, onto Rift. And yes, Rift is lacking as an AAA themepark MMORPG what people might hope for or want/need of an AAA MMORPG. But, being realistic, Rift is lacking less than most of those other MMORPG's were of the past 5 years when they launched.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I'm starting to think RIFT isn't really a competitor for WoW. Sure it has elves, dwarves and the usual stuff but it really isn't that type of game that WoW is in spirit.
For example, I just saw this video of ArcheAge while it's in beta.
If you look at this world, the setting and what type of 'feel' it brings it evokes more of a "RIFT" feel than a WoW feel. This is the game RIFT has to fear because I think it's more in line with what people want to do.
WoW players will always play WoW because it's a great game overall with tons to do. RIFT players were basically people who left other games hoping for a more wide open, immersive experience that gives you the sense you can go anywhere and do anything. If you look at that ArcheAge video, that's exactly the feel you get from watching the toon run around in that world with everything scaled correctly.
Because of the type of game RIFT is (one dimensional dungeons and not enough rift consequence to the world) people looking for more of an open world feel but don't want themepark might try this out, given that there's more open world Pvp in it as well.
When you combine that with house/boat building and whatever else they have for crafters, this is the type of game RIFT should have been making.. not themepark.
That one city they are showing dwarfs what Sanctum and Meridian are as total cities combined, and the scale the toon is running around in is fabulous.
"TO MICHAEL!"
Hmm, I don't know why Rift should fear more of an ArcheAge than other MMO's. I'm actually very interested in the upcoming year, because I think all MMO's including WoW will face the effects of the avalanche of the next few AAA MMO's to come.
You're talking about a large city in AA? SWTOR has a city with Coruscant that is as large as a whole continent, and even its smaller cities can be as large as several zones. GW2's human capital dwarfs most other MMO cities in sheer awe and grandeur.
It's the impact of the collective power of a GW2, SWTOR, ArcheAge, The Secret World and TERA that I'm very interested in to see how they affect the MMO market. Their variety in features, their scope and their high quality, I'd find it odd if these together won't leave their mark on the MMO genre and influence player numbers of all other MMO's.
Especially when you realise that these MMO's will all appear within a year, which is kinda ironic when you realise that up till now it was usually only 1,2 and sometimes no great MMO in a year. Rift did a good kickoff for this new wave of blockbuster MMO's, but the real waves in the water will be made when those other MMO's arrive on the scene. imo
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I'm not sure if you saw the video there, if you didn't you should.
Ignoring the lag as it's alpha or beta mode, look at the city. Look at the far horizon. You don't see anything like that in RIFT. There is no sense of scale in the game at all.
When you run or jump in RIFT, it feels like you barely move. Look at the way in the AA vid, how the person is actually moving and jumping. It's about as good as Age of Conan.
But more importantly, SWTOR is a sci-fi theme game and games like 'pew pew' don't get everyone. Everyone doesnt like sci-fi and prefer more high fantasy.
Rift is high fantasy so that puts it directly in-line vs AA, not SWTOR, GW2 or The Secret World. That's why I think RIFT should worry about AA if it's done halfway decently.
"TO MICHAEL!"
Guild Wars 2 Youtube Croatian Maniacs
My Guild Wars titles
Hmm, well, to each their own opinion, I guess. I happen to disagree - LotrO, WoW, EQ2, Vanguard and Aion are high fantasy too - but so far it's speculations from both of us, what will happen when the other MMO's appear, including AA, we'll only know for sure when the moment is there.
I saw the video, I wasn't that impressed with the city in AA. If AA will interest me enough to give it a try, it won't be because its cities are magnificent wonders to behold, it'll be because of other factors. But, that applies to me, to each their own preferences
edit: yeah, I've got such a large pile of avatars, I thought it was time to switch again
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Just about anyone who likes that genre has already tried those games probably once. Same with RIFT, mostly anyone who has thought about a high fantasy game like RIFT has already tried it. That's one reason I say they are shutting down those 'trial' servers.. the market simply doesn't exist anymore for who would have played. It's not like there is 150,000 people still thinking "Hmmm.. wonder if I should try RIFT?" A few yeah, but not enough to fill 38 servers worth, so that's a shutdown.
ArcheAge is too early to say it's going to do well since it's alpha/beta mostly. But if people know that it has PvP in it (which it does), crafting, housing construction, crafting, boat battles, etc.. that is certainly more than RIFT is offering by a longshot.
I think the people who are going to play SWTOR, TSW and GW2 are mostly done with RIFT after four months, the rest of time now is just waiting to see about November.
"TO MICHAEL!"