Imagine that you hate ham. You despise it. Every time you have ever eaten ham, it has caused you to vomit in disgust. Just the thought of ham makes you nauseous.
Now imagine that, much to your delight, you have been invited to a dinner cooked by a world reknown chef. But then you find out that the dish is going to be ham. Clearly, you would be disappointed and upset.
Yes, it's true, maybe you'll try the chef's ham and he will completely change your mind and turn you into a ham lover. But let's be honest, you've tried ham multiple times before and every time it made you vomit. It's unlikely that you're going to mysteriously fall in love with it this time.
Moral of the story is that people can get a good idea of what they like/dislike from past experiences and make inferences about how they will like things they haven't experienced yet by examining the information about it.
Here's the thing though, If you don't like ham, are you going to visit the ham section of a food forum?
That's what i see a bunch of in the TOR section. Sure we're all entitled to state our opinions, but what's the point in reading someones opinion if they dislike the core of a game? There's really nothing to take away or apply to the overall discusion in such cases.
I don't understand why people think that since they don't like ham it must be cooked badly. If people are excited to try the ham and are excited about the ingrediants why is that a bad thing. It isn't like they are telling the ham haters that they have horrible taste just that it is differant. But alot of the ham haters are trying to say that because they don't like ham it will be horribly cooked and anyone who eats it will get food poisoning. This is what frustrates alot of people who just want to see what the game will be like.
Ham comes from Pigs, and pigs wallow in their own feces all day. You can love Ham all you want to but youre still eating a filthy animal... I personally can't wait for SWTOR, but had to chime in on your ham anology.
"I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"
Imagine that you hate ham. You despise it. Every time you have ever eaten ham, it has caused you to vomit in disgust. Just the thought of ham makes you nauseous.
Now imagine that, much to your delight, you have been invited to a dinner cooked by a world reknown chef. But then you find out that the dish is going to be ham. Clearly, you would be disappointed and upset.
Yes, it's true, maybe you'll try the chef's ham and he will completely change your mind and turn you into a ham lover. But let's be honest, you've tried ham multiple times before and every time it made you vomit. It's unlikely that you're going to mysteriously fall in love with it this time.
Moral of the story is that people can get a good idea of what they like/dislike from past experiences and make inferences about how they will like things they haven't experienced yet by examining the information about it.
Here's the thing though, If you don't like ham, are you going to visit the ham section of a food forum?
That's what i see a bunch of in the TOR section. Sure we're all entitled to state our opinions, but what's the point in reading someones opinion if they dislike the core of a game? There's really nothing to take away or apply to the overall discusion in such cases.
I don't understand why people think that since they don't like ham it must be cooked badly. If people are excited to try the ham and are excited about the ingrediants why is that a bad thing. It isn't like they are telling the ham haters that they have horrible taste just that it is differant. But alot of the ham haters are trying to say that because they don't like ham it will be horribly cooked and anyone who eats it will get food poisoning. This is what frustrates alot of people who just want to see what the game will be like.
I don't think the ham analogy is a good one. Please note, the things I am about to say are not meant to even be my opinon, but a suggestion about how some people view SWTOR.
If we want to use a food analogy for MMO's let's look at it this way. Some people really hate McDonalds and other fast food places. They hate them for a variety of reasons like replacing real food with what they consider "fake/plastic" food, they hate the popularity of these places for several reasons as well, for instance many believe the McDonalds puts mom and pop joints out of business, or that they in general are a symptom of a dumb and lazy populace. By appealing to the masses they have forever changed the hamburger landscape if not restaurants. But just because these people hate McDonalds or other fast food places doesn't mean they hate burgers and fries.
Some people see SWTOR as just another fast food chain of an MMO and they fear like WoW before it that all they will see pop up in the MMO market is a sorry string of sad imitators and with nothing new or of substance offered. Of course these people also ignore the good things McDonalds or WoW brought to the market and only see the bad things.
Me personally - I have no hatred for WoW or SWTOR, while I find neither game appealing and I find the blind fandom that accompanies both of them to be just as annoying as the blind hatred, I still will add my voice to a discussion about do you like or dislike X game or X feature in said game, because I believer dialgoue is better than blind obedience to love or hate.
I keep hearing the argument that a lot of the criticism that comes up about this game is nonsense because we don't have all the facts out yet, so we're just hating on the game.
Well what about all of the optimism around the game?
You're perfectly right, we don't have all the facts. Yet why then is it perfectly acceptable for some posters to fawn over the game and herald is as the best MMO to date... yet any criticism is treated like it's trolling. Both sides have the same limited facts, and if one side doesn't have enough 'facts' to go by to make a call on the game's quality, then neither does the other.
As per Bioware's trackrecord, it's very subjective depending on who you talk to. Also their track record is with single player RPGs, not MMORPGs, apples to oranges.
Everyone is free to have their own critcisms or praises of the upcoming game. In the end though, ALL such views are subject to the fact that the game hasn't even released yet, and neither criticisms or praises have anymore legitimacy than the other at this point in time.
Oh sure I agree completely with your sentiment on overblown optimism, too. I just wonder why more people don't seem to be even handed though. SWTOR and Rift have/had more than their share of haters but look at the GW2 forums .. its chock full of boundless optimism and very little skepticism. "There's no trinity lolzorz!!" Although if you read the info and watch the gameplay it just means that there's still basically a holy duo plus many healers. So its basically the same mechanics just that they've expanded the classes that can do it. Otherwise combat would just be a complete cluster. I dunno, it just makes me scratch my head.
Well...you started it .
The holy trinity means that players will have separate roles being either tank, healer, or DPS. Even hybrid classes (druid) have to "choose" which role they will play when they go into a dungeon. True, they can respec, but they can't really do two roles at once and be effective. The holy trinity does NOT mean that the game just involves tanking, healing, and DPS. That's generally called "a game with combat."
A lot of folks dislike the holy trinity because it severely limits your gameplay. If you make a DPS/tank/healer class, that's basically all your going to be doing in a group. With a hybrid class you get some flexibility, but you're still generally limited to a single role on each outing. What GW2 is trying to do is to make it so every class can perform any of these roles at any time without a need to respec. So if you're an elementalist and you see a weakened ally being rushed, you can swap to earth attunement and tank the monster while your ally recovers, then switch back to fire spec and roast the enemy once your ally is safe.
There are no defined roles. That's what makes it not like the trinity.
I keep hearing the argument that a lot of the criticism that comes up about this game is nonsense because we don't have all the facts out yet, so we're just hating on the game.
Well what about all of the optimism around the game?
You're perfectly right, we don't have all the facts. Yet why then is it perfectly acceptable for some posters to fawn over the game and herald is as the best MMO to date... yet any criticism is treated like it's trolling. Both sides have the same limited facts, and if one side doesn't have enough 'facts' to go by to make a call on the game's quality, then neither does the other.
As per Bioware's trackrecord, it's very subjective depending on who you talk to. Also their track record is with single player RPGs, not MMORPGs, apples to oranges.
Everyone is free to have their own critcisms or praises of the upcoming game. In the end though, ALL such views are subject to the fact that the game hasn't even released yet, and neither criticisms or praises have anymore legitimacy than the other at this point in time.
Oh sure I agree completely with your sentiment on overblown optimism, too. I just wonder why more people don't seem to be even handed though. SWTOR and Rift have/had more than their share of haters but look at the GW2 forums .. its chock full of boundless optimism and very little skepticism. "There's no trinity lolzorz!!" Although if you read the info and watch the gameplay it just means that there's still basically a holy duo plus many healers. So its basically the same mechanics just that they've expanded the classes that can do it. Otherwise combat would just be a complete cluster. I dunno, it just makes me scratch my head.
Well...you started it .
The holy trinity means that players will have separate roles being either tank, healer, or DPS. Even hybrid classes (druid) have to "choose" which role they will play when they go into a dungeon. True, they can respec, but they can't really do two roles at once and be effective. The holy trinity does NOT mean that the game just involves tanking, healing, and DPS. That's generally called "a game with combat."
A lot of folks dislike the holy trinity because it severely limits your gameplay. If you make a DPS/tank/healer class, that's basically all your going to be doing in a group. With a hybrid class you get some flexibility, but you're still generally limited to a single role on each outing. What GW2 is trying to do is to make it so every class can perform any of these roles at any time without a need to respec. So if you're an elementalist and you see a weakened ally being rushed, you can swap to earth attunement and tank the monster while your ally recovers, then switch back to fire spec and roast the enemy once your ally is safe.
There are no defined roles. That's what makes it not like the trinity.
So basically its going to do what Rift did but just expand the roles for every class and make it workable in combat? Sounds good to be, but I also liked Rift (and I want to play GW2). What I'm saying again is why is it so unbalanced, there were about 3000 crap on Rift threads in this forum and almost none for GW2. I like both heh (though I've only read about GW2 obviously).
I keep hearing the argument that a lot of the criticism that comes up about this game is nonsense because we don't have all the facts out yet, so we're just hating on the game.
Well what about all of the optimism around the game?
You're perfectly right, we don't have all the facts. Yet why then is it perfectly acceptable for some posters to fawn over the game and herald is as the best MMO to date... yet any criticism is treated like it's trolling. Both sides have the same limited facts, and if one side doesn't have enough 'facts' to go by to make a call on the game's quality, then neither does the other.
As per Bioware's trackrecord, it's very subjective depending on who you talk to. Also their track record is with single player RPGs, not MMORPGs, apples to oranges.
Everyone is free to have their own critcisms or praises of the upcoming game. In the end though, ALL such views are subject to the fact that the game hasn't even released yet, and neither criticisms or praises have anymore legitimacy than the other at this point in time.
Oh sure I agree completely with your sentiment on overblown optimism, too. I just wonder why more people don't seem to be even handed though. SWTOR and Rift have/had more than their share of haters but look at the GW2 forums .. its chock full of boundless optimism and very little skepticism. "There's no trinity lolzorz!!" Although if you read the info and watch the gameplay it just means that there's still basically a holy duo plus many healers. So its basically the same mechanics just that they've expanded the classes that can do it. Otherwise combat would just be a complete cluster. I dunno, it just makes me scratch my head.
Well...you started it .
The holy trinity means that players will have separate roles being either tank, healer, or DPS. Even hybrid classes (druid) have to "choose" which role they will play when they go into a dungeon. True, they can respec, but they can't really do two roles at once and be effective. The holy trinity does NOT mean that the game just involves tanking, healing, and DPS. That's generally called "a game with combat."
A lot of folks dislike the holy trinity because it severely limits your gameplay. If you make a DPS/tank/healer class, that's basically all your going to be doing in a group. With a hybrid class you get some flexibility, but you're still generally limited to a single role on each outing. What GW2 is trying to do is to make it so every class can perform any of these roles at any time without a need to respec. So if you're an elementalist and you see a weakened ally being rushed, you can swap to earth attunement and tank the monster while your ally recovers, then switch back to fire spec and roast the enemy once your ally is safe.
There are no defined roles. That's what makes it not like the trinity.
So basically its going to do what Rift did but just expand the roles for every class and make it workable in combat? Sounds good to be, but I also liked Rift (and I want to play GW2). What I'm saying again is why is it so unbalanced, there were about 3000 crap on Rift threads in this forum and almost none for GW2. I like both heh (though I've only read about GW2 obviously).
Rift's class system was cool, and it offered great customization, but it was still very holy trinity. Despite the fact that you could customize your three roles fairly extensively, you were still basically doing either tank/dps/heal whenever you were grouped. You would just have a heal spec, dps spec, tank spec etc.
Rift's system didn't allow for a tank character to suddenly start healing or DPSing when the situation demanded it. It was basically like if everyone is a WoW style hybrid class and can switch their roles in-between fights. But to be very clear, you sitll had one defined role at any given time.
What GW2 at least purports to do is to make it so just about every class has equal capability to heal/dps/tank at any time. No respeccing required. The only thing that makes me scared this won't work is if they make their traits pigeonhole you into one role.
EDIT: I reread your post, and you actually said that GW2 would try to make a system like Rift's that is workable in combat. I think that may be a decent assumption.
Imagine that you hate ham. You despise it. Every time you have ever eaten ham, it has caused you to vomit in disgust. Just the thought of ham makes you nauseous.
Now imagine that, much to your delight, you have been invited to a dinner cooked by a world reknown chef. But then you find out that the dish is going to be ham. Clearly, you would be disappointed and upset.
Yes, it's true, maybe you'll try the chef's ham and he will completely change your mind and turn you into a ham lover. But let's be honest, you've tried ham multiple times before and every time it made you vomit. It's unlikely that you're going to mysteriously fall in love with it this time.
Moral of the story is that people can get a good idea of what they like/dislike from past experiences and make inferences about how they will like things they haven't experienced yet by examining the information about it.
Here's the thing though, If you don't like ham, are you going to visit the ham section of a food forum?
That's what i see a bunch of in the TOR section. Sure we're all entitled to state our opinions, but what's the point in reading someones opinion if they dislike the core of a game? There's really nothing to take away or apply to the overall discusion in such cases.
I don't understand why people think that since they don't like ham it must be cooked badly. If people are excited to try the ham and are excited about the ingrediants why is that a bad thing. It isn't like they are telling the ham haters that they have horrible taste just that it is differant. But alot of the ham haters are trying to say that because they don't like ham it will be horribly cooked and anyone who eats it will get food poisoning. This is what frustrates alot of people who just want to see what the game will be like.
Ham comes from Pigs, and pigs wallow in their own feces all day. You can love Ham all you want to but youre still eating a filthy animal... I personally can't wait for SWTOR, but had to chime in on your ham anology.
Well firstly a little education on porcine behaivior that goes a bit beyond a popular film quotation.
Pigs only eat and roll in their own waste because of the way they are housed. Pigs don't have sweat glands, and are prone to hyperthermia. If they don't have clean mud to roll in to keep themselves cool and their skin protected, they will roll in feces, as a matter of self preservation. Given the choice, pigs won't roll in feces and are actually very fastidious animals. Pigs housed in pastures, and wild pigs generally don't roll in or eat feces. Additionally, pigs kept in large pens or pastures will defecate as far away as possible from where they bed down or eat. So the sterotype of pigs rolling in excrement is really the result of forces beyond their control. (I've seen human beings forced to live in very similar conditions)
Which dovetails nicely into my desctipion of posters who only want to continually post that they hate this game, hate this style of game, hate people who play this type of game, hope it dies, hope all non-sandbox games die, hope we die, preferably in a fire, etc. Instead of just moving on with their lives and finding a constructive use of their time, they would rather come here and wallow around in their own mental excrement and make the rest of us of a different opinion suffer right along with them.That is the kind of poster the OP was talking about.
Those of you posters who have rational concerens or critiques are not the problem. And yes I completely agree there are extremes on the other side of the fence as well where some individuals are so insecure that seeing anyone criticise their dream game even a tiny and rational little bit is like watching someone drop kick their favorite puppy.
All you can do with either extreme is to make use of the sites ignore function. As people of both extreme camps will add nothing relevant to the discussion and in fact have viewpoints so set in concrete they feel there IS no actuall possible need for a discussion.
"Gypsies, tramps, and thieves, we were called by the Admin of the site . . . "
Can I ask you OP, why are you seeming to interprete every negative view on a game as 'hate'? being critical isnt 'hate', just as others postinga different a opinion to one you might have dosent make them a 'troll'.
In my case it isnt at all the case, and from what I read from others I have to say I dont see it from them either. I see critical observations on an upcoming product..
Personally, I am very critical of a lot of the design decisions made in this game, many are just plain bad, but I also recognise what it does well (and yes, I will be playing it with a group friends for a bit at launch) and so I come from a very middle place. Most just see the 'negative' though in what i say and charge in with the cliche 'hater' and 'troll' BS.
Same thing happened with Rift (and others), but funny thing is I didnt see the guys that called me all those names that left a month later for all the reasons I said they would post anything admitting they were wrong and I was right. Same thing will happen no doubt with SWtoR.
In my view, folks are just waaaaay too super senstive about the games they throw their loyalty into pre launch. People need to stop pinning their entire self identity on a IP and step back and look at the whole picture. Admitting your fave new game isnt 100% perfect dosent mean you have 'lost' on the forums, it just means your opinion can probably be trusted more then a blinkered fanatics.
I do not have hatred for the game. I just have 2 things I am worried about.
First,
I just have a bad feeling we are going to see a Star Wars themed quest hub game. I hope not and Bioware has make great RPGs in the past but I am still worried that this game will be nothing different then the other boring quest hub games on the market but this will have a Star Wars theme.
My second fear is that we will see nothing but jedi and dark jedi running around with very few playing other classes.
(theme park = quest hub game)
THIS IS MY OPINION, I AM NOT SAYING ITS A FACT THAT ALL GAMES ON THE MARKET ARE CRAP. I am saying that all the MMOs on the market are crap for me.
Same thing happened with Rift (and others), but funny thing is I didnt see the guys that called me all those names that left a month later for all the reasons I said they would post anything admitting they were wrong and I was right. Same thing will happen no doubt with SWtoR.
Rift was easy to call since everyone got to play beta... after couple hours playing beta and closing a few dozen rifts I knew the game was going to be boring....
Harder to call it on SWTOR since very few people have played it.... and no open beta...
Just based on Other Bioware games I would have to say its probably going to pretty good... Im a big fan of Mass Effect, KOTOR and Dragon Age so im not to worried about it not appealing to me....
Same thing happened with Rift (and others), but funny thing is I didnt see the guys that called me all those names that left a month later for all the reasons I said they would post anything admitting they were wrong and I was right. Same thing will happen no doubt with SWtoR.
Rift was easy to call since everyone got to play beta... after couple hours playing beta and closing a few dozen rifts I knew the game was going to be boring....
Harder to call it on SWTOR since very few people have played it.... and no open beta...
Just based on Other Bioware games I would have to say its probably going to pretty good... Im a big fan of Mass Effect, KOTOR and Dragon Age so im not to worried about it not appealing to me....
Well, I guess you wasnt on the Rift forums here when there were just a handful of us being savaged by the rabid majority. A few of us were in beta for Rift way before the majority of the posters here and gave real info based on experience and were attacked on a personal level for it. I am not talking about calling it a week before live or anything, and tbh I don't remember your name backing up the truth at the time.
If Rift was so easy to call, why didnt more call it? Because these forums were very very short on people 'calling it'.
And it's not harder to call SWtoR, because some people out there are in exactly the same situation again and the information exists for those looking beyond Bioware/ Star Wars loyalty and corperate spin.
No day/Night cycles being dumb sure i'm with you there.
No swiming being dumb again i'm with you there.
Space on rails not being your flavor and disliking it or feeling that space should be a bigger part i can understand that issue here.
Not liking the art style and saying i wish they went with a different type again fine.
All of these types I have no problem with and even some i agree with on the whole.
The things i feel people tend say that is just purely either guess work or blasting the game are as follow
The graphics suck and look like (edit the game is) designed for little kids
It will be all soloing and very little grouping
It's basically a single player game with some multiplayer elements
The worlds are going to be very linear.
There isn't much or to traditional end-game
The combat will be boring.
This game is design to fail
and the one i love most of all
Stories don't work in MMOs and bioware is wasting resources on a feature noone will use.
All of these are based on opinoins yes, but they also aren't based on facts or anything we can know at the moment, these types of complains are impossible to decipher if they are true let alone provide evidence to the contrary.
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.
The things i feel people tend say that is just purely either guess work or blasting the game are as follow
It will be all soloing and very little grouping
It's basically a single player game with some multiplayer elements
The worlds are going to be very linear.
I hope a month after play you don't vanish from these forums and these elements can be discussed again, because I have a feeling your view will have changed a lot by then.
The things i feel people tend say that is just purely either guess work or blasting the game are as follow
It will be all soloing and very little grouping
It's basically a single player game with some multiplayer elements
The worlds are going to be very linear.
I hope a month after play you don't vanish from these forums and these elements can be discussed again, because I have a feeling your view will have changed a lot by then.
you missed the point, it's not about wether these assertations are right or wrong right now, it's about making these assumptions before having seen the game itself, just assuming because Bioware makes single player games they don't understand the aspects of grouping and interacting with other players.
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.
The things i feel people tend say that is just purely either guess work or blasting the game are as follow
It will be all soloing and very little grouping
It's basically a single player game with some multiplayer elements
The worlds are going to be very linear.
I hope a month after play you don't vanish from these forums and these elements can be discussed again, because I have a feeling your view will have changed a lot by then.
you missed the point, it's not about wether these assertations are right or wrong right now, it's about making these assumptions before having seen the game itself, just assuming because Bioware makes single player games they don't understand the aspects of grouping and interacting with other players.
No, I didnt miss it. My point is that you are assuming that people havent. There are a ton of folks already in beta for tthis.
The things i feel people tend say that is just purely either guess work or blasting the game are as follow
It will be all soloing and very little grouping
It's basically a single player game with some multiplayer elements
The worlds are going to be very linear.
I hope a month after play you don't vanish from these forums and these elements can be discussed again, because I have a feeling your view will have changed a lot by then.
you missed the point, it's not about wether these assertations are right or wrong right now, it's about making these assumptions before having seen the game itself, just assuming because Bioware makes single player games they don't understand the aspects of grouping and interacting with other players.
No, I didnt miss it. My point is that you are assuming that people havent. There are a ton of folks already in beta for tthis.
Not sure which beta testers you've seen or heard but i heard from them that grouping is required because you need those group quests, and there are quite a lot of multiplayer things in the game from crafting to social points to world bosses to whatever else. I would like to see these beta testers myself because i've got a very different story coming from my end.
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.
its just like how i hate guild wars and wont even look into anything doing with guild wars 2...most horrible game ever created in my opinion and shouldnt have been supported,
The things i feel people tend say that is just purely either guess work or blasting the game are as follow
It will be all soloing and very little grouping
It's basically a single player game with some multiplayer elements
The worlds are going to be very linear.
I hope a month after play you don't vanish from these forums and these elements can be discussed again, because I have a feeling your view will have changed a lot by then.
you missed the point, it's not about wether these assertations are right or wrong right now, it's about making these assumptions before having seen the game itself, just assuming because Bioware makes single player games they don't understand the aspects of grouping and interacting with other players.
No, I didnt miss it. My point is that you are assuming that people havent. There are a ton of folks already in beta for tthis.
Not sure which beta testers you've seen or heard but i heard from them that grouping is required because you need those group quests, and there are quite a lot of multiplayer things in the game from crafting to social points to world bosses to whatever else. I would like to see these beta testers myself because i've got a very different story coming from my end.
Best to just leave this conversation here tbh, but likeI say, we can talk about it again a month after launch
Some worry if the game is successful that it will set a trend they don't care for
Some Don't like EA
Some are wary after DA2
Then you always have some of the sand box fans that don't want this to be a themepark/hate that it is.
Some just don't care for the star wars series or think LA will screw it up.
I'm sure there are others but these are the major things i've seen thrown at it.
You got your crazy aspects like it's a single player game or that it's lobby based but i think these are the symptons of the previous and not the actual cause.
This basically covers it. Also there is the perception, like any game of this size, that Swtor is suppose to be the Next big thing. Right now Gw2 is stealing a lot of swtor thunder, and deservedly so.
Well, I guess you wasnt on the Rift forums here when there were just a handful of us being savaged by the rabid majority. A few of us were in beta for Rift way before the majority of the posters here and gave real info based on experience and were attacked on a personal level for it. I am not talking about calling it a week before live or anything, and tbh I don't remember your name backing up the truth at the time.
If Rift was so easy to call, why didnt more call it? Because these forums were very very short on people 'calling it'.
And it's not harder to call SWtoR, because some people out there are in exactly the same situation again and the information exists for those looking beyond Bioware/ Star Wars loyalty and corperate spin.
{mod edit}
Go over some of the posts in this thread and others.
The 'I know what is best for the MMO genre' arrogancy is fairly high.
Course if you point that out the posters generally disapper for a bit and not acknowledge it.
I can never understand the people who have that 'I know best for myself and other people' mindset though. Must be pretty good living in that imaginary world.
Back on topic, the answer is fairly simple. Some people love to take down others with the spotlight and right now SWTOR has the brighest.
Gdemami - Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
Because There Can Be Only One (tm) Star Wars MMO. So if it's not being made the way you want to play it, it's not as though you can go play some OTHER Star Wars MMO that is more to your liking. You can't imagine why someone might be upset that the only SW MMO on the market isn't going to be a game they want to play?
If there could be, say, three different Star Wars MMOs running at once, I would be willing to bet a lot of the criticism of SW:TOR would fade away.
Comments
Ham comes from Pigs, and pigs wallow in their own feces all day. You can love Ham all you want to but youre still eating a filthy animal... I personally can't wait for SWTOR, but had to chime in on your ham anology.
"I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"
I don't think the ham analogy is a good one. Please note, the things I am about to say are not meant to even be my opinon, but a suggestion about how some people view SWTOR.
If we want to use a food analogy for MMO's let's look at it this way. Some people really hate McDonalds and other fast food places. They hate them for a variety of reasons like replacing real food with what they consider "fake/plastic" food, they hate the popularity of these places for several reasons as well, for instance many believe the McDonalds puts mom and pop joints out of business, or that they in general are a symptom of a dumb and lazy populace. By appealing to the masses they have forever changed the hamburger landscape if not restaurants. But just because these people hate McDonalds or other fast food places doesn't mean they hate burgers and fries.
Some people see SWTOR as just another fast food chain of an MMO and they fear like WoW before it that all they will see pop up in the MMO market is a sorry string of sad imitators and with nothing new or of substance offered. Of course these people also ignore the good things McDonalds or WoW brought to the market and only see the bad things.
Me personally - I have no hatred for WoW or SWTOR, while I find neither game appealing and I find the blind fandom that accompanies both of them to be just as annoying as the blind hatred, I still will add my voice to a discussion about do you like or dislike X game or X feature in said game, because I believer dialgoue is better than blind obedience to love or hate.
Well...you started it
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The holy trinity means that players will have separate roles being either tank, healer, or DPS. Even hybrid classes (druid) have to "choose" which role they will play when they go into a dungeon. True, they can respec, but they can't really do two roles at once and be effective. The holy trinity does NOT mean that the game just involves tanking, healing, and DPS. That's generally called "a game with combat."
A lot of folks dislike the holy trinity because it severely limits your gameplay. If you make a DPS/tank/healer class, that's basically all your going to be doing in a group. With a hybrid class you get some flexibility, but you're still generally limited to a single role on each outing. What GW2 is trying to do is to make it so every class can perform any of these roles at any time without a need to respec. So if you're an elementalist and you see a weakened ally being rushed, you can swap to earth attunement and tank the monster while your ally recovers, then switch back to fire spec and roast the enemy once your ally is safe.
There are no defined roles. That's what makes it not like the trinity.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
So basically its going to do what Rift did but just expand the roles for every class and make it workable in combat? Sounds good to be, but I also liked Rift (and I want to play GW2). What I'm saying again is why is it so unbalanced, there were about 3000 crap on Rift threads in this forum and almost none for GW2. I like both heh (though I've only read about GW2 obviously).
Rift's class system was cool, and it offered great customization, but it was still very holy trinity. Despite the fact that you could customize your three roles fairly extensively, you were still basically doing either tank/dps/heal whenever you were grouped. You would just have a heal spec, dps spec, tank spec etc.
Rift's system didn't allow for a tank character to suddenly start healing or DPSing when the situation demanded it. It was basically like if everyone is a WoW style hybrid class and can switch their roles in-between fights. But to be very clear, you sitll had one defined role at any given time.
What GW2 at least purports to do is to make it so just about every class has equal capability to heal/dps/tank at any time. No respeccing required. The only thing that makes me scared this won't work is if they make their traits pigeonhole you into one role.
EDIT: I reread your post, and you actually said that GW2 would try to make a system like Rift's that is workable in combat. I think that may be a decent assumption.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
Well firstly a little education on porcine behaivior that goes a bit beyond a popular film quotation.
Pigs only eat and roll in their own waste because of the way they are housed. Pigs don't have sweat glands, and are prone to hyperthermia. If they don't have clean mud to roll in to keep themselves cool and their skin protected, they will roll in feces, as a matter of self preservation. Given the choice, pigs won't roll in feces and are actually very fastidious animals. Pigs housed in pastures, and wild pigs generally don't roll in or eat feces. Additionally, pigs kept in large pens or pastures will defecate as far away as possible from where they bed down or eat. So the sterotype of pigs rolling in excrement is really the result of forces beyond their control. (I've seen human beings forced to live in very similar conditions)
Which dovetails nicely into my desctipion of posters who only want to continually post that they hate this game, hate this style of game, hate people who play this type of game, hope it dies, hope all non-sandbox games die, hope we die, preferably in a fire, etc. Instead of just moving on with their lives and finding a constructive use of their time, they would rather come here and wallow around in their own mental excrement and make the rest of us of a different opinion suffer right along with them. That is the kind of poster the OP was talking about.
Those of you posters who have rational concerens or critiques are not the problem. And yes I completely agree there are extremes on the other side of the fence as well where some individuals are so insecure that seeing anyone criticise their dream game even a tiny and rational little bit is like watching someone drop kick their favorite puppy.
All you can do with either extreme is to make use of the sites ignore function. As people of both extreme camps will add nothing relevant to the discussion and in fact have viewpoints so set in concrete they feel there IS no actuall possible need for a discussion.
"Gypsies, tramps, and thieves, we were called by the Admin of the site . . . "
Seriously, How could anyone hate Star Wars. Get a grip!
" Why is there hatred for a game that's not even out yet?"
Can I ask you OP, why are you seeming to interprete every negative view on a game as 'hate'? being critical isnt 'hate', just as others postinga different a opinion to one you might have dosent make them a 'troll'.
In my case it isnt at all the case, and from what I read from others I have to say I dont see it from them either. I see critical observations on an upcoming product..
Personally, I am very critical of a lot of the design decisions made in this game, many are just plain bad, but I also recognise what it does well (and yes, I will be playing it with a group friends for a bit at launch) and so I come from a very middle place. Most just see the 'negative' though in what i say and charge in with the cliche 'hater' and 'troll' BS.
Same thing happened with Rift (and others), but funny thing is I didnt see the guys that called me all those names that left a month later for all the reasons I said they would post anything admitting they were wrong and I was right. Same thing will happen no doubt with SWtoR.
In my view, folks are just waaaaay too super senstive about the games they throw their loyalty into pre launch. People need to stop pinning their entire self identity on a IP and step back and look at the whole picture. Admitting your fave new game isnt 100% perfect dosent mean you have 'lost' on the forums, it just means your opinion can probably be trusted more then a blinkered fanatics.
I do not have hatred for the game. I just have 2 things I am worried about.
First,
I just have a bad feeling we are going to see a Star Wars themed quest hub game. I hope not and Bioware has make great RPGs in the past but I am still worried that this game will be nothing different then the other boring quest hub games on the market but this will have a Star Wars theme.
My second fear is that we will see nothing but jedi and dark jedi running around with very few playing other classes.
(theme park = quest hub game)
THIS IS MY OPINION, I AM NOT SAYING ITS A FACT THAT ALL GAMES ON THE MARKET ARE CRAP. I am saying that all the MMOs on the market are crap for me.
Sooner or Later
Prequels *cough* Midi-chlorians *cough cough cough* I'll say no more.
"Gypsies, tramps, and thieves, we were called by the Admin of the site . . . "
Rift was easy to call since everyone got to play beta... after couple hours playing beta and closing a few dozen rifts I knew the game was going to be boring....
Harder to call it on SWTOR since very few people have played it.... and no open beta...
Just based on Other Bioware games I would have to say its probably going to pretty good... Im a big fan of Mass Effect, KOTOR and Dragon Age so im not to worried about it not appealing to me....
People love to bitch about everything. Especially things they have little to no knowledge about.
This is coming from the guy whose avatar looks like Darth Maul
?
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
Well, I guess you wasnt on the Rift forums here when there were just a handful of us being savaged by the rabid majority. A few of us were in beta for Rift way before the majority of the posters here and gave real info based on experience and were attacked on a personal level for it. I am not talking about calling it a week before live or anything, and tbh I don't remember your name backing up the truth at the time.
If Rift was so easy to call, why didnt more call it? Because these forums were very very short on people 'calling it'.
And it's not harder to call SWtoR, because some people out there are in exactly the same situation again and the information exists for those looking beyond Bioware/ Star Wars loyalty and corperate spin.
Valid critism i have no problem with.
No day/Night cycles being dumb sure i'm with you there.
No swiming being dumb again i'm with you there.
Space on rails not being your flavor and disliking it or feeling that space should be a bigger part i can understand that issue here.
Not liking the art style and saying i wish they went with a different type again fine.
All of these types I have no problem with and even some i agree with on the whole.
The things i feel people tend say that is just purely either guess work or blasting the game are as follow
The graphics suck and look like (edit the game is) designed for little kids
It will be all soloing and very little grouping
It's basically a single player game with some multiplayer elements
The worlds are going to be very linear.
There isn't much or to traditional end-game
The combat will be boring.
This game is design to fail
and the one i love most of all
Stories don't work in MMOs and bioware is wasting resources on a feature noone will use.
All of these are based on opinoins yes, but they also aren't based on facts or anything we can know at the moment, these types of complains are impossible to decipher if they are true let alone provide evidence to the contrary.
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.
I hope a month after play you don't vanish from these forums and these elements can be discussed again, because I have a feeling your view will have changed a lot by then.
You don't know the power of the dark side my young apprentice...
you missed the point, it's not about wether these assertations are right or wrong right now, it's about making these assumptions before having seen the game itself, just assuming because Bioware makes single player games they don't understand the aspects of grouping and interacting with other players.
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.
No, I didnt miss it. My point is that you are assuming that people havent. There are a ton of folks already in beta for tthis.
Not sure which beta testers you've seen or heard but i heard from them that grouping is required because you need those group quests, and there are quite a lot of multiplayer things in the game from crafting to social points to world bosses to whatever else. I would like to see these beta testers myself because i've got a very different story coming from my end.
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.
its just like how i hate guild wars and wont even look into anything doing with guild wars 2...most horrible game ever created in my opinion and shouldnt have been supported,
Best to just leave this conversation here tbh, but likeI say, we can talk about it again a month after launch
This basically covers it. Also there is the perception, like any game of this size, that Swtor is suppose to be the Next big thing. Right now Gw2 is stealing a lot of swtor thunder, and deservedly so.
Go over some of the posts in this thread and others.
The 'I know what is best for the MMO genre' arrogancy is fairly high.
Course if you point that out the posters generally disapper for a bit and not acknowledge it.
I can never understand the people who have that 'I know best for myself and other people' mindset though. Must be pretty good living in that imaginary world.
Back on topic, the answer is fairly simple. Some people love to take down others with the spotlight and right now SWTOR has the brighest.
Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
Because There Can Be Only One (tm) Star Wars MMO. So if it's not being made the way you want to play it, it's not as though you can go play some OTHER Star Wars MMO that is more to your liking. You can't imagine why someone might be upset that the only SW MMO on the market isn't going to be a game they want to play?
If there could be, say, three different Star Wars MMOs running at once, I would be willing to bet a lot of the criticism of SW:TOR would fade away.