I compared the mysterious water that allows you to swim unhindered with space shuttles, you compared it with going to the bathroom. Some people might actually suggest that neither of us have a sense of scale, and that we are both wrong. That's the beauty of opinions.
Also, teleportation has very little to do with movement speed as you don't actually cross a physical distance. Things simply disappear and instantly re-appear in a different place when teleported.
I mentioned a lack of bathroom as one of the many, many things that MMOs do to sacrifice reality on the altar of fun.
Look at combat. How realistic do you think it is for people to take an axe to the face a few times?
Look at how freaking big people's pockets are.
Look at how high people jump, and how far they can fall. This stuff is crazy. It's all for the sake of the game, and the water is the same thing. You might not LIKE it, but it's the same sort of thing, almost exactly. Space shuttles lack internal consistency with predefined lore, so it's a whole different ballpark. They would need a pretty good explanation for it.
Notice how long people can run in full plate armor, and without any sort of speed penalty compared to cloth.
Notice people do not run at the same sort of rates they do in real life. Everything is all messed up, especially the scale of transportation.
... if you're in one place, and then in another, you've crossed a physical distance.
... or are you suggesting all places are the same, in which case all swimming never moves you anywhere anyway. How zen.
Its really not a realism thing.. or how something happens in real life in comparison to how you see it in game.
Its about being able to look at things that are happening and utilize them to a standard that notes some kind of acknowledgement that these things exist.
For example, inventory, you know you have pockets or places to put items because you can open them up and see them, put things in them, you know they are pockets because they function like pockets.....etc.
You know you are running instead of walking because the movements speed is quicker, when you run it acts like you are running. You know you are flying instead of running because your movement speed is different then when you were running, and it notes not moving utilizing the ground, with nothing in your way to prohibit faster movement speed, like trees, walls, etc. as it would had you been flying.
When you are underwater, (which is a liquid, as I've come to find out) you usually see a difference between walking, flying and being underwater. No difference to me, is the same as there not being any water. It could have been just a blue room that you can fly in and use a fancy weapon.
It doesn't mean that it has to be ultra realistic, what I'm saying is that without some kind of solid common identifier, underwater combat feels like a gimmick. Like they just created a ton of content in these areas, but threw in the idea that, while doing this content you are "swimming" instead of "floating magically through underground air".
Is it immersion? Commonality? Identify-ability-ness? I don't know how to explain it in a way that results in the understanding of others.
Masked...I'm sorry but this is a silly argument.
Yeah, underwater is just a blue room where:
1. You can move up and down freely
2. There are fish and other aquatic creatures
3. There is underwater plant life
4. There are bubbles
5. All of your skills change to things that would make sense underwater
6. It sounds different, you can hear yourself swimming
But no, none of that stuff matters, because the only thing that lets you know your underwater is moving slower. I mean, by that argument you could say that if there was a levitate spell that let you levitate slowly (ala Elder Scrolls) that there is effectively no difference between levitating and being underwater.
To be honest, I think most people that play GW2 without having all of the info ahead of time won't really care that they are moving faster than they should underwater. They will only notice that underwater content is no longer incredibly annoying as it was in other MMORPGs.
What is acceptable in a game and what is not is entirely a matter of opinion. You may not agree with Metentso about the feel of the water, but that does not mean he is wrong - or that his logic is stupid, fragmented and broken.
It also doesn't mean he is right.
All it means is that he has different opinion on the matter.
As for logic it is indeed wrong. It is very wrong to bring real life to a virtual game in a fantasy setting. His immerion is not mine immersion for example. And i may find permanent running with char more immersion breaking than freedom of movement under water. How many ppl IRL you see either standing or running - never walking. How many IRL could run forever and never stop ? None.
Bringing RL limitations is stupid.
Bringing RL argument into fantasy game is the worst argument ever.
This pretty much summs it up. I wasn't aiming at Metentso tbh. I was pretty much saying that anyone using the water as an immersion card at this stage is just looking to complain. And trying to make logical comparisons and examples of why the water should slow you down based on real life facts is just funny if you are in my shoes and reading it. As I said poster above summmed it up in more words than I cared to post at the time and Meowhead did a great job when I commented on hers.
What is acceptable in a game and what is not is entirely a matter of opinion. You may not agree with Metentso about the feel of the water, but that does not mean he is wrong - or that his logic is stupid, fragmented and broken.
It also doesn't mean he is right.
All it means is that he has different opinion on the matter.
As for logic it is indeed wrong. It is very wrong to bring real life to a virtual game in a fantasy setting. His immerion is not mine immersion for example. And i may find permanent running with char more immersion breaking than freedom of movement under water. How many ppl IRL you see either standing or running - never walking. How many IRL could run forever and never stop ? None.
Bringing RL limitations is stupid.
Bringing RL argument into fantasy game is the worst argument ever.
This pretty much summs it up. I wasn't aiming at Metentso tbh. I was pretty much saying that anyone using the water as an immersion card at this stage is just looking to complain. And trying to make logical comparisons and examples of why the water should slow you down based on real life facts is just funny if you are in my shoes and reading it. As I said poster above summmed it up in more words than I cared to post at the time and Meowhead did a great job when I commented on hers.
Please read the text in red. You will notice that he actually agrees with me, that it is ultimately a matter of opinion. Why he would follow up and say that lack of immersion is a stupid reason for disliking a game, when he himself just stated that it is a matter of opinion, is beyond me.
Originally posted by Creslin321
Masked...I'm sorry but this is a silly argument.
Yeah, underwater is just a blue room where:
1. You can move up and down freely
2. There are fish and other aquatic creatures
3. There is underwater plant life
4. There are bubbles
5. All of your skills change to things that would make sense underwater
6. It sounds different, you can hear yourself swimming
But no, none of that stuff matters, because the only thing that lets you know your underwater is moving slower. I mean, by that argument you could say that if there was a levitate spell that let you levitate slowly (ala Elder Scrolls) that there is effectively no difference between levitating and being underwater.
To be honest, I think most people that play GW2 without having all of the info ahead of time won't really care that they are moving faster than they should underwater. They will only notice that underwater content is no longer incredibly annoying as it was in other MMORPGs.
Your threshold for what is reasonable to expect in a game with underwater content clearly differs from mine. Bubbles and harpoons are nice and all, but it still doesn't work for me if it feels like I'm merely levitating inside a blue skybox.
But if you think the underwater content feels right, good for you.
I compared the mysterious water that allows you to swim unhindered with space shuttles, you compared it with going to the bathroom. Some people might actually suggest that neither of us have a sense of scale, and that we are both wrong. That's the beauty of opinions.
Also, teleportation has very little to do with movement speed as you don't actually cross a physical distance. Things simply disappear and instantly re-appear in a different place when teleported.
I mentioned a lack of bathroom as one of the many, many things that MMOs do to sacrifice reality on the altar of fun.
Look at combat. How realistic do you think it is for people to take an axe to the face a few times?
Look at how freaking big people's pockets are.
Look at how high people jump, and how far they can fall. This stuff is crazy. It's all for the sake of the game, and the water is the same thing. You might not LIKE it, but it's the same sort of thing, almost exactly. Space shuttles lack internal consistency with predefined lore, so it's a whole different ballpark. They would need a pretty good explanation for it.
Notice how long people can run in full plate armor, and without any sort of speed penalty compared to cloth.
Notice people do not run at the same sort of rates they do in real life. Everything is all messed up, especially the scale of transportation.
... if you're in one place, and then in another, you've crossed a physical distance.
... or are you suggesting all places are the same, in which case all swimming never moves you anywhere anyway. How zen.
Its really not a realism thing.. or how something happens in real life in comparison to how you see it in game.
Its about being able to look at things that are happening and utilize them to a standard that notes some kind of acknowledgement that these things exist.
For example, inventory, you know you have pockets or places to put items because you can open them up and see them, put things in them, you know they are pockets because they function like pockets.....etc.
You know you are running instead of walking because the movements speed is quicker, when you run it acts like you are running. You know you are flying instead of running because your movement speed is different then when you were running, and it notes not moving utilizing the ground, with nothing in your way to prohibit faster movement speed, like trees, walls, etc. as it would had you been flying.
When you are underwater, (which is a liquid, as I've come to find out) you usually see a difference between walking, flying and being underwater. No difference to me, is the same as there not being any water. It could have been just a blue room that you can fly in and use a fancy weapon.
It doesn't mean that it has to be ultra realistic, what I'm saying is that without some kind of solid common identifier, underwater combat feels like a gimmick. Like they just created a ton of content in these areas, but threw in the idea that, while doing this content you are "swimming" instead of "floating magically through underground air".
Is it immersion? Commonality? Identify-ability-ness? I don't know how to explain it in a way that results in the understanding of others.
Masked...I'm sorry but this is a silly argument.
Yeah, underwater is just a blue room where:
1. You can move up and down freely
2. There are fish and other aquatic creatures
3. There is underwater plant life
4. There are bubbles
5. All of your skills change to things that would make sense underwater
6. It sounds different, you can hear yourself swimming
But no, none of that stuff matters, because the only thing that lets you know your underwater is moving slower. I mean, by that argument you could say that if there was a levitate spell that let you levitate slowly (ala Elder Scrolls) that there is effectively no difference between levitating and being underwater.
To be honest, I think most people that play GW2 without having all of the info ahead of time won't really care that they are moving faster than they should underwater. They will only notice that underwater content is no longer incredibly annoying as it was in other MMORPGs.
Well, and you forgot you have to find a way to breathe underwater, or come up for air. When you're in the air in TES and your spell ends, you fall and get hurt, when you're underwater, you drown if your spell disappears.
To me, its like.... you're in a store and they have two kinds of nuts you can try. One is plain, the other is honey roasted, but they took out the honey and roasted part and put it in a blue container with a napkin under it. They both taste the same for the most part, but one looks a little bit nicer, it may be more aesthetically pleasing, and you might just like walking around holding that blue cup and napkin it came with..... but in its essence, what made it a honey roasted peanut is gone.
Sure I have an XY and Z axis... sure I have a new weapon, and sure the mobs are different, but what makes this underWATER combat and not floating in a blue room combat? Random visuals of bubbles? A splash noise? Perhaps the animations (if they don't run on water at launch) will help, and maybe the interactions with the weapons (though you can't use those weapons outside of water AFAIK so no telling what the same abilities would look like above water).
I'm not saying its not going to be fun to play, I'm just saying... it seems gimmicky, silly, pointless. I think they could have created stronger content somewhere else, in a different manner that would have meshed better. They could still have some underwater content, I just think the way it was implemented was not "just for enjoyment" but because it was easier to make you just run underwater without a breath meter than simulate the usual dangers of being underwater.
5. All of your skills change to things that would make sense underwater
6. It sounds different, you can hear yourself swimming
But no, none of that stuff matters, because the only thing that lets you know your underwater is moving slower. I mean, by that argument you could say that if there was a levitate spell that let you levitate slowly (ala Elder Scrolls) that there is effectively no difference between levitating and being underwater.
To be honest, I think most people that play GW2 without having all of the info ahead of time won't really care that they are moving faster than they should underwater. They will only notice that underwater content is no longer incredibly annoying as it was in other MMORPGs.
Well, and you forgot you have to find a way to breathe underwater, or come up for air. When you're in the air in TES and your spell ends, you fall and get hurt, when you're underwater, you drown if your spell disappears.
To me, its like.... you're in a store and they have two kinds of nuts you can try. One is plain, the other is honey roasted, but they took out the honey and roasted part and put it in a blue container with a napkin under it. They both taste the same for the most part, but one looks a little bit nicer, it may be more aesthetically pleasing, and you might just like walking around holding that blue cup and napkin it came with..... but in its essence, what made it a honey roasted peanut is gone.
Sure I have an XY and Z axis... sure I have a new weapon, and sure the mobs are different, but what makes this underWATER combat and not floating in a blue room combat? Random visuals of bubbles? A splash noise? Perhaps the animations (if they don't run on water at launch) will help, and maybe the interactions with the weapons (though you can't use those weapons outside of water AFAIK so no telling what the same abilities would look like above water).
I'm not saying its not going to be fun to play, I'm just saying... it seems gimmicky, silly, pointless. I think they could have created stronger content somewhere else, in a different manner that would have meshed better. They could still have some underwater content, I just think the way it was implemented was not "just for enjoyment" but because it was easier to make you just run underwater without a breath meter than simulate the usual dangers of being underwater.
Well they already stated that the breathing masks will be consumable, i.e. they will run out at some point. This is exactly the same as a spell of water breathing in TES.
Also, in TES I'm pretty sure you could just enchant an item (any equipabble item) with water breathing and it would be permanent. I mean, what's more realistic..a mask of water breathing, or a ring of water breathing? At least the mask covers your mouth.
And really, I don't think there's anything you could do to make undewater combat different than floating in a blue room combat. You can't actually "feel" the water. And I think it would be ridiculous to have a game model the effects of water pressure on the human body so that you get the bends if you come up to fast.
The only thing that tells you that you are underwater is the fact that if you swim up you surface and the general environmental cues you get.
So I don't really see what you're asking for. You seem to have a viewpoint that can't be satisfied.
You're basically saying that if ANet didn't do anything special with underwater content, then it would have been bland, so why do it at all. But if they DO try to make it better then it's just the same as flying content so it's a waste of effort.
I mean...the fact is that they made the convenience features like accessible underwater breathing and faster movement so that people could actually enjoy the underwater content. If they didn't do this, there is no way their content would have worked. Who wants to do a dynamic event underwater while moving at the speed of a sea slug?
I remember how much I HATED underwater stuff in WoW. It was soooo slow. I would usually go AFK while I waited for my character to swim to where I had to go.
What is acceptable in a game and what is not is entirely a matter of opinion. You may not agree with Metentso about the feel of the water, but that does not mean he is wrong - or that his logic is stupid, fragmented and broken.
It also doesn't mean he is right.
All it means is that he has different opinion on the matter.
As for logic it is indeed wrong. It is very wrong to bring real life to a virtual game in a fantasy setting. His immerion is not mine immersion for example. And i may find permanent running with char more immersion breaking than freedom of movement under water. How many ppl IRL you see either standing or running - never walking. How many IRL could run forever and never stop ? None.
Bringing RL limitations is stupid.
Bringing RL argument into fantasy game is the worst argument ever.
This pretty much summs it up. I wasn't aiming at Metentso tbh. I was pretty much saying that anyone using the water as an immersion card at this stage is just looking to complain. And trying to make logical comparisons and examples of why the water should slow you down based on real life facts is just funny if you are in my shoes and reading it. As I said poster above summmed it up in more words than I cared to post at the time and Meowhead did a great job when I commented on hers.
Please read the text in red. You will notice that he actually agrees with me, that it is ultimately a matter of opinion. Why he would follow up and say that lack of immersion is a stupid reason for disliking a game, when he himself just stated that it is a matter of opinion, is beyond me.
Originally posted by Creslin321
Masked...I'm sorry but this is a silly argument.
Yeah, underwater is just a blue room where:
1. You can move up and down freely
2. There are fish and other aquatic creatures
3. There is underwater plant life
4. There are bubbles
5. All of your skills change to things that would make sense underwater
6. It sounds different, you can hear yourself swimming
But no, none of that stuff matters, because the only thing that lets you know your underwater is moving slower. I mean, by that argument you could say that if there was a levitate spell that let you levitate slowly (ala Elder Scrolls) that there is effectively no difference between levitating and being underwater.
To be honest, I think most people that play GW2 without having all of the info ahead of time won't really care that they are moving faster than they should underwater. They will only notice that underwater content is no longer incredibly annoying as it was in other MMORPGs.
Your threshold for what is reasonable to expect in a game with underwater content clearly differs from mine. Bubbles and harpoons are nice and all, but it still doesn't work for me if it feels like I'm merely levitating inside a blue skybox.
But if you think the underwater content feels right, good for you.
I think when you play the game you may change your mind. You also have to consider how perspective works with your perception of speed. Like how it looks like the ground is going by very slowly when you are flying high in a plane?
Or how in Everquest everyone though that halflings moved fastests and ogres moved the slowest? It's because when you are higher off the ground, it looks to you like you are going slower.
So I still think that you will "feel" like you are going slower underwater just because you will be floating high off the surface. Even though you are going the same speed. And really, this is all you have been complaining about regarding speed. You want movement in water to "feel" different than it does on land, and I think it will. Just for the perspective issue rather than anything else.
Originally posted by Creslin321 So I don't really see what you're asking for. You seem to have a viewpoint that can't be satisfied. You're basically saying that if ANet didn't do anything special with underwater content, then it would have been bland, so why do it at all. But if they DO try to make it better then it's just the same as flying content so it's a waste of effort. I mean...the fact is that they made the convenience features like accessible underwater breathing and faster movement so that people could actually enjoy the underwater content. If they didn't do this, there is no way their content would have worked. Who wants to do a dynamic event underwater while moving at the speed of a sea slug? I remember how much I HATED underwater stuff in WoW. It was soooo slow. I would usually go AFK while I waited for my character to swim to where I had to go.
This, exactly. Ultimately it would be impossible for ANet to simultaneously please those who wish underwater content to be a challenge to overcome and those who don't. Almost every one of these discussions, from mounts, to gear, etc. come down to this aspect. Underwater cannot simultaneously slow you down and make you find solutions to a breathing problem, AND be fun for those who despise those things. Someone will have to be dissatisfied; it is just their lot in life in this case.
As far as I remember--and you'll have to forgive an old bloke for having a potentially flaky memory, here--they took back the consumable element in a bunch of recent videos, even saying once that many didn't like it because it impeded with simply getting on with gameplay and it felt like an entirely arbitrary hassle, and that after some discussion they just felt that underwater combat shouldn't be restricted, it should simply be fun. And there's their angle, it's fun.
The best games ever and some of my favourite critically acclaimed games have obeyed this rule, just sacrificing some things for the sake of fun, and really... I mean, it's just ridiculous to bring reality into a world that doesn't obey our physical laws. Anyone doiong so is just talking bunkum, and being facetious for the sake of it (which is why I felt the need to be a little bit back). There's just no argument there, it's sort of like dealing with the town fool.
So, what, in Skies of Arcadia they should've obeyed realism and all those floating ships should've just fallen out of the sky?
I mean, it's ridiculous. It's not a hard thing to grasp.
World has magic. World obviously does not obey all of our physical laws.
If we ever experience a reality changing event that changes some of our own physical laws then these people are going to be screwed, because suddenly reality is going to be unrealistic and their brains will explode. >_> Hasn't anyone realised how completely, patently ridiculous this is? It isn't just a boring argument, it's a ludicrous argument, as both I and Meowhead have pointed out.
In a game, for the sake of fun, you set aside reality in favour of fun. And it's easiiy explained by saying that that reality works differently. It doesn't need to work the same as our own. I mean, fuck me, if every reality operates exactly the same as ours then what, pray tell, is the point of escapism? Is there a point? Let's all go play Pizza Delivery Guy with realistic physics so that we experience every pothole in the road! We're talking about a game with bizarre clockpunk technology that couldn't work in our reality, and giant, floating cube cities!! We're talking about a game that has CONTINENT SIZED DRAGONS, and this reality should obey all the physical laws of our own?
Here's the thing...
If that reality obeyed all the physical laws of our own, those dragons would be dead, things that size (which dwarf a T-Rex) would not find a suitable habitat on our world. If you don't understand why then you can ask a physicist to explain it to you, but if you need that help then you're not the sort of person who should be talking about realism or reality.
Now believability? That's a different kettle of fish! But believability comes from CONTEXT. If the world makes sense within its own context, then to the intelligent mind it is believable, because it hasn't defied any of its own laws. I mean, our reality does not have giant cat people, so ArenaNet has to tell us how they work in theirs, and that's believable until they contradict that. By allowing people to move quickly through water, that's fine, because that's just the physical nature of that world at play. Now, if we have bodies of water which we move through at different speeds with no explanation, then you might have a bit of trouble suspending disbelief.
But if you can look at Guild Wars 2 and not suspend disbelief and accept that it's a differnet reality with different physical laws, then you're not an imaginative person, at all, I'm sorry. And here's the thing: Science takes imagination. It always has. Everyone ever who's worked with any advenced form of physics will tell you that it starts with hair-brained ideas and imaginary concepts which have to be proved over time. It's not all rock solid. Science is built upon airy-fairy ideas.
If you really care about realism then exercise the imagination that's required for reality and accept that the world behind your monitor does not operate in the same way as the world on your side of the monitor. Put those energies into something creative and try and figure out how the physical laws of that reality work. I mean, the most limited scientist looks at something and says that is is simply impossible. The clever scientist knows that nothing is impossible and that everything exists in fields of probability. Things can be highly improbable to the point where they may never change, but not impossible.
I don't think any scientist would agree with the idea that another reality, another dimension, couldn't have its own physical laws. It's been a staple in some hard sci-fi books written by people far, far more intelligent than I am.
I'd be with you if it was supposed to be set in our reality, if it was supposed to be Earth or very near Earth, but we're dealing with a world with magic. In a near earth reality game, it might be fun to have to manually put on a scuba pack (oh, wait, even in those games the equipment just tends to magically appear on you, but regardless...) that you've bought, and have an air meter with that, and move slowly underwater, and have such limited visibility that it just ceases to be fun for all but the most realism-craving few. Sure. There are simulation games like that. But this is a fantasy game. It's supposed to be about fun. Rule of Fun is king.
What the argument boils down to really is that some people hate fantasy games. They want medieval games. They want a Mount & Blade MMORPG with just humans and perhaps some token, hard to use magicks, and things as near earth as possible. That's what this is about. And to claim otherwise is bullshit, really, because to bring realism into a fantasy game is so ludicrous that I can't actually believe that the people doing it are talking honestly.
You can rage against Guild Wars 2 for being what it is, but that won't change what it is, it's a high fantasy game with all sorts of crazy things going on - cat people, airships, robots, shapeshifters, magic, continent sized dragons... nothing about ANYTHING in Guild Wars 2 is realistic. So why cry for some element of it to be?
It's never going to be that sort of game. It's never going to be like Mortal Online or some super near-earth-realistic thing.
I just can't understand why some people want it to be when it's clearly its own beast. It should be allowed to be. I just... I find it so incredibly limited (to say it again) to want everything to be near earth, so unimaginative, so uncreative, so lacking in visioin, in drive, in passion, in anything that makes us living, sentient beings. Yes, let's sit around doing boring things. A game like this is about embracing ESCAPISM, it's not about pedantic little bloody details.
Guild Wars 2 will never be about pedantic little details. If you need that then go and play a diving simulator.
So I don't really see what you're asking for. You seem to have a viewpoint that can't be satisfied.
You're basically saying that if ANet didn't do anything special with underwater content, then it would have been bland, so why do it at all. But if they DO try to make it better then it's just the same as flying content so it's a waste of effort.
I mean...the fact is that they made the convenience features like accessible underwater breathing and faster movement so that people could actually enjoy the underwater content. If they didn't do this, there is no way their content would have worked. Who wants to do a dynamic event underwater while moving at the speed of a sea slug?
I remember how much I HATED underwater stuff in WoW. It was soooo slow. I would usually go AFK while I waited for my character to swim to where I had to go.
This, exactly. Ultimately it would be impossible for ANet to simultaneously please those who wish underwater content to be a challenge to overcome and those who don't. Almost every one of these discussions, from mounts, to gear, etc. come down to this aspect. Underwater cannot simultaneously slow you down and make you find solutions to a breathing problem, AND be fun for those who despise those things. Someone will have to be dissatisfied; it is just their lot in life in this case.
Pretty much.
Some people take the stance on, GW2 has underwater content so they had to make this kind of content bearable by removing a speed penalty and making breathing pretty much infinite. They didn't HAVE to have underwater content, it was a decision they made, and then they made these other decisions based on the content they've already created.
My stance is more along the lines of, yeah, okay, so they created this content and then created a way to make this content easily playable, thats great, but it sacrifices parts of the experience that makes this type of content different.
I'm not saying all underwater combat has to be slow, or you always have to go up for breath when underwater, I'm saying that in this particular instance, where they decided they wanted to do this, and just threw it together to make it possible is just a silly way to go about creating content.
Its like, why create spaceships or spacesuits for games that play in space when we could have just used a space "breathing, temperature, and pressure" apparatus so that we can experience intergalactic battles without those pesky ideals that make space...well... space.
While I will play the content, and yes, I'm likely going to enjoy it ... at least in some aspects... as strange as that sounds after so many pages of this argument, unless the content is such a mindblowingly awesome revelation, like the guy who decided that "meat is the new bread" -- to such an extent that the game is nothing but better for it -- unless its like that, I wonder how long it will take for me to get over the feeling that its just a kind of "second class" content.
Now believability? That's a different kettle of fish! But believability comes from CONTEXT. If the world makes sense within its own context, then to the intelligent mind it is believable, because it hasn't defied any of its own laws. I mean, our reality does not have giant cat people, so ArenaNet has to tell us how they work in theirs, and that's believable until they contradict that. By allowing people to move quickly through water, that's fine, because that's just the physical nature of that world at play. Now, if we have bodies of water which we move through at different speeds with no explanation, then you might have a bit of trouble suspending disbelief.
I may be off the mark but in GW1, I remember running through areas that had water that was knee height and if I recall correctly, don't you run a bit slower?
I may have to reinstall ... at least prophecies and test it out. If I recall correctly one of the first missions you run in prophecies (I remember it distinctly with the necromancer) theres a whole portion where you run through water. Then again its been so long I may just be remembering it wrong.
Now believability? That's a different kettle of fish! But believability comes from CONTEXT. If the world makes sense within its own context, then to the intelligent mind it is believable, because it hasn't defied any of its own laws. I mean, our reality does not have giant cat people, so ArenaNet has to tell us how they work in theirs, and that's believable until they contradict that. By allowing people to move quickly through water, that's fine, because that's just the physical nature of that world at play. Now, if we have bodies of water which we move through at different speeds with no explanation, then you might have a bit of trouble suspending disbelief.
I may be off the mark but in GW1, I remember running through areas that had water that was knee height and if I recall correctly, don't you run a bit slower?
I may have to reinstall ... at least prophecies and test it out. If I recall correctly one of the first missions you run in prophecies (I remember it distinctly with the necromancer) theres a whole portion where you run through water. Then again its been so long I may just be remembering it wrong.
Nope, you run the same speed in GW1. I'm in-game now and running the same speed.
Now believability? That's a different kettle of fish! But believability comes from CONTEXT. If the world makes sense within its own context, then to the intelligent mind it is believable, because it hasn't defied any of its own laws. I mean, our reality does not have giant cat people, so ArenaNet has to tell us how they work in theirs, and that's believable until they contradict that. By allowing people to move quickly through water, that's fine, because that's just the physical nature of that world at play. Now, if we have bodies of water which we move through at different speeds with no explanation, then you might have a bit of trouble suspending disbelief.
I may be off the mark but in GW1, I remember running through areas that had water that was knee height and if I recall correctly, don't you run a bit slower?
I may have to reinstall ... at least prophecies and test it out. If I recall correctly one of the first missions you run in prophecies (I remember it distinctly with the necromancer) theres a whole portion where you run through water. Then again its been so long I may just be remembering it wrong.
Nope, you run the same speed in GW1. I'm in-game now and running the same speed.
Its been so long I can't remember. I think I may load it up anyways.
Now believability? That's a different kettle of fish! But believability comes from CONTEXT. If the world makes sense within its own context, then to the intelligent mind it is believable, because it hasn't defied any of its own laws. I mean, our reality does not have giant cat people, so ArenaNet has to tell us how they work in theirs, and that's believable until they contradict that. By allowing people to move quickly through water, that's fine, because that's just the physical nature of that world at play. Now, if we have bodies of water which we move through at different speeds with no explanation, then you might have a bit of trouble suspending disbelief.
I may be off the mark but in GW1, I remember running through areas that had water that was knee height and if I recall correctly, don't you run a bit slower?
I may have to reinstall ... at least prophecies and test it out. If I recall correctly one of the first missions you run in prophecies (I remember it distinctly with the necromancer) theres a whole portion where you run through water. Then again its been so long I may just be remembering it wrong.
Nope, you run the same speed in GW1. I'm in-game now and running the same speed.
Its been so long I can't remember. I think I may load it up anyways.
There were certains types of fluidy surfaces (such as tar) which slowed you down, and if I recall icy surfaces also slow you down for some time once you've stopped moving.
Now believability? That's a different kettle of fish! But believability comes from CONTEXT. If the world makes sense within its own context, then to the intelligent mind it is believable, because it hasn't defied any of its own laws. I mean, our reality does not have giant cat people, so ArenaNet has to tell us how they work in theirs, and that's believable until they contradict that. By allowing people to move quickly through water, that's fine, because that's just the physical nature of that world at play. Now, if we have bodies of water which we move through at different speeds with no explanation, then you might have a bit of trouble suspending disbelief.
I may be off the mark but in GW1, I remember running through areas that had water that was knee height and if I recall correctly, don't you run a bit slower?
I may have to reinstall ... at least prophecies and test it out. If I recall correctly one of the first missions you run in prophecies (I remember it distinctly with the necromancer) theres a whole portion where you run through water. Then again its been so long I may just be remembering it wrong.
Nope, you run the same speed in GW1. I'm in-game now and running the same speed.
Its been so long I can't remember. I think I may load it up anyways.
There were certains types of fluidy surfaces (such as tar) which slowed you down, and if I recall icy surfaces also slow you down for some time once you've stopped moving.
Those surfaces actually periodically just put a movement speed debuff on you. It's kind of weird because you're moving all fine on the ice, then the debuff ticks and you're slow as molasses. Also in GW1, you can't even drop off a 1 foot ledge . I seriously hated all of the invisible walls stuff in GW1 and that's one of the reasons I'm glad GW2 will offer so much freedom. Including the underwater stuff.
Now believability? That's a different kettle of fish! But believability comes from CONTEXT. If the world makes sense within its own context, then to the intelligent mind it is believable, because it hasn't defied any of its own laws. I mean, our reality does not have giant cat people, so ArenaNet has to tell us how they work in theirs, and that's believable until they contradict that. By allowing people to move quickly through water, that's fine, because that's just the physical nature of that world at play. Now, if we have bodies of water which we move through at different speeds with no explanation, then you might have a bit of trouble suspending disbelief.
I may be off the mark but in GW1, I remember running through areas that had water that was knee height and if I recall correctly, don't you run a bit slower?
I may have to reinstall ... at least prophecies and test it out. If I recall correctly one of the first missions you run in prophecies (I remember it distinctly with the necromancer) theres a whole portion where you run through water. Then again its been so long I may just be remembering it wrong.
Nope, you run the same speed in GW1. I'm in-game now and running the same speed.
Its been so long I can't remember. I think I may load it up anyways.
There were certains types of fluidy surfaces (such as tar) which slowed you down, and if I recall icy surfaces also slow you down for some time once you've stopped moving.
Those surfaces actually periodically just put a movement speed debuff on you. It's kind of weird because you're moving all fine on the ice, then the debuff ticks and you're slow as molasses. Also in GW1, you can't even drop off a 1 foot ledge . I seriously hated all of the invisible walls stuff in GW1 and that's one of the reasons I'm glad GW2 will offer so much freedom. Including the underwater stuff.
Now that you mention it, the part I think I'm thinking about is some kind of strange surface... I think as you passed through it you lost health or something... and I think it did take a few seconds for that to tick...
To me, its like.... you're in a store and they have two kinds of nuts you can try. One is plain, the other is honey roasted, but they took out the honey and roasted part and put it in a blue container with a napkin under it. They both taste the same for the most part, but one looks a little bit nicer, it may be more aesthetically pleasing, and you might just like walking around holding that blue cup and napkin it came with..... but in its essence, what made it a honey roasted peanut is gone.
Bad example. Let me help you, because I'm awesome with examples.
It's like you're in a store, and you want honey roasted peanuts, right?
So you look at 'Honee Roasted Peanutz in a can, the drink now with .2% more real substances that resemble honey and peanuts' and say 'This kicks ass. This is just like honey roasted peanuts'i
... and I look at 'Huny Roasted Pinut Butter', the 'peanut butter like substance where the makers heard of honey' and say 'Wow, I am totally getting the honey roasted peanut experience now'
The thing is, neither of us are having honey roasted peanuts.
We're both having substitutes. You love the 'real roasted flavor' in your drink, and I think the crunchy 'bits' in my pinut butter are an amazingly simulation of peanut texture.
I like mine, and you like yours.
... but if you say yours is the real honey roasted peanuts while mine is not, I will accuse you of being a crazy person. Yours isn't objectively any more like honey roasted peanuts, and both substances are going to fail chemical analysis hard (Verdict? 'What the hell are you guys eating').
You want a certain thing from your honey roasted peanut analogue, and I'm happy with other, different things. Please don't tell me you're having real honey roasted peanuts and I'm having some shoddy knockoff though. Yours isn't 'real underwater content' it's 'the underwater analogue content you like personally'.
Originally posted by maskedweasel
Its like, why create spaceships or spacesuits for games that play in space when we could have just used a space "breathing, temperature, and pressure" apparatus so that we can experience intergalactic battles without those pesky ideals that make space...well... space.
Please don't use spaceships as an example of game content that is immersive travel.
We're talking about the same game industry that basically treats space like atmosphere. Explosions are a dime a dozen, constant thrust to maintain speed, and all sense of scale just dumped out wherever they dump scale when it's no longer useful.
The same game industry that always drastically reduces the amount of space travel time compared to EVERYTHING else.
Oh sure 'Hey, we're using all sorts of awesome space travel gates' like in Mass Effect... but just the time taken to move from planet to gate at sublight speeds should send players into a drool-inducing coma from the weeks of staring at a black screen (With little dots for stars) with no other stimulus.
Space travel is the most fubared, unrealistic, time-dilated form of travel ever in any game, ever.
So... yeah.
The only way they could possibly put underwater content on par with how badly space travel isn't like space travel, would be if it was normal walking content and they mailed you a letter saying 'Hey you're underwater' on a post card you get two days later.
(I swear, I'm not picking on you, even though I quoted two of your posts! I just want you to admit that space travel in all video games ever is bad and unimmersive and about as realistic as something that isn't, and we're both settling for fake underwater content and yours isn't any more real than mine, other than in your head. )
To me, its like.... you're in a store and they have two kinds of nuts you can try. One is plain, the other is honey roasted, but they took out the honey and roasted part and put it in a blue container with a napkin under it. They both taste the same for the most part, but one looks a little bit nicer, it may be more aesthetically pleasing, and you might just like walking around holding that blue cup and napkin it came with..... but in its essence, what made it a honey roasted peanut is gone.
Bad example. Let me help you, because I'm awesome with examples.
It's like you're in a store, and you want honey roasted peanuts, right?
So you look at 'Honee Roasted Peanutz in a can, the drink now with .2% more real substances that resemble honey and peanuts' and say 'This kicks ass. This is just like honey roasted peanuts'i
... and I look at 'Huny Roasted Pinut Butter', the 'peanut butter like substance where the makers heard of honey' and say 'Wow, I am totally getting the honey roasted peanut experience now'
The thing is, neither of us are having honey roasted peanuts.
We're both having substitutes. You love the 'real roasted flavor' in your drink, and I think the crunchy 'bits' in my pinut butter are an amazingly simulation of peanut texture.
I like mine, and you like yours.
... but if you say yours is the real honey roasted peanuts while mine is not, I will accuse you of being a crazy person. Yours isn't objectively any more like honey roasted peanuts, and both substances are going to fail chemical analysis hard (Verdict? 'What the hell are you guys eating').
You want a certain thing from your honey roasted peanut analogue, and I'm happy with other, different things. Please don't tell me you're having real honey roasted peanuts and I'm having some shoddy knockoff though. Yours isn't 'real underwater content' it's 'the underwater analogue content you like personally'.
Originally posted by maskedweasel
Its like, why create spaceships or spacesuits for games that play in space when we could have just used a space "breathing, temperature, and pressure" apparatus so that we can experience intergalactic battles without those pesky ideals that make space...well... space.
Please don't use spaceships as an example of game content that is immersive travel.
We're talking about the same game industry that basically treats space like atmosphere. Explosions are a dime a dozen, constant thrust to maintain speed, and all sense of scale just dumped out wherever they dump scale when it's no longer useful.
The same game industry that always drastically reduces the amount of space travel time compared to EVERYTHING else.
Oh sure 'Hey, we're using all sorts of awesome space travel gates' like in Mass Effect... but just the time taken to move from planet to gate at sublight speeds should send players into a drool-inducing coma from the weeks of staring at a black screen (With little dots for stars) with no other stimulus.
Space travel is the most fubared, unrealistic, time-dilated form of travel ever in any game, ever.
So... yeah.
The only way they could possibly put underwater content on par with how badly space travel isn't like space travel, would be if it was normal walking content and they mailed you a letter saying 'Hey you're underwater' on a post card you get two days later.
(I swear, I'm not picking on you, even though I quoted two of your posts! I just want you to admit that space travel in all video games ever is bad and unimmersive and about as realistic as something that isn't, and we're both settling for fake underwater content and yours isn't any more real than mine, other than in your head. )
Actually...time dilation is very realistic. In fact, assuming that the spacecraft are able to reach close to lightspeed, realistic space travel would mean that if you traveled to somewhere 2 light years away then 2 years would pass for the people at your destination, but only a few days would pass for you.
To me, its like.... you're in a store and they have two kinds of nuts you can try. One is plain, the other is honey roasted, but they took out the honey and roasted part and put it in a blue container with a napkin under it. They both taste the same for the most part, but one looks a little bit nicer, it may be more aesthetically pleasing, and you might just like walking around holding that blue cup and napkin it came with..... but in its essence, what made it a honey roasted peanut is gone.
Bad example. Let me help you, because I'm awesome with examples.
It's like you're in a store, and you want honey roasted peanuts, right?
So you look at 'Honee Roasted Peanutz in a can, the drink now with .2% more real substances that resemble honey and peanuts' and say 'This kicks ass. This is just like honey roasted peanuts'i
... and I look at 'Huny Roasted Pinut Butter', the 'peanut butter like substance where the makers heard of honey' and say 'Wow, I am totally getting the honey roasted peanut experience now'
The thing is, neither of us are having honey roasted peanuts.
We're both having substitutes. You love the 'real roasted flavor' in your drink, and I think the crunchy 'bits' in my pinut butter are an amazingly simulation of peanut texture.
I like mine, and you like yours.
... but if you say yours is the real honey roasted peanuts while mine is not, I will accuse you of being a crazy person. Yours isn't objectively any more like honey roasted peanuts, and both substances are going to fail chemical analysis hard (Verdict? 'What the hell are you guys eating').
You want a certain thing from your honey roasted peanut analogue, and I'm happy with other, different things. Please don't tell me you're having real honey roasted peanuts and I'm having some shoddy knockoff though. Yours isn't 'real underwater content' it's 'the underwater analogue content you like personally'.
I'll keep the space portion out simply because I'm not an astronaut.
I gotta tell you though, normally I see where you're going and I can agree with you, or find some milk chocolatey and caramel common ground, but here I think you took my analogy, and not only made it more confusing, but missed the mark on the point I think we were both going after here.
Keeping with the peanut analogy, you are essentially saying we both want peanuts, but we're ending up with a peanut substitute. While I get this, the point I'm making is.. in your analogy, we came for peanuts and left with something that IS a substitute, that doesn't resemble either of what we came for, and instead accepting what they are telling us we want, whereas I'm saying that on one side (mine) theres some commonality on the identifiers of said... peanuts, and on the other side these factors are removed. So while it might not be a 1 to 1 comparison with RL peanuts, in the virtual peanut market its just a couple of the major identifiers we have.
You say we came for honey roasted peanuts, and instead we get honey roasted peanut flavoring in... a can.. or a butter.. or a juice I'm not sure where you went with that one.... but in this instance, they are telling us we're getting Honey Roasted peanuts, but we're getting something that only resembles honey roasted peanuts in name and not in taste, function, or... texture... I guess.
The main thing here is that they are telling us this is underwater combat, that we are underwater, and by saying this people should expect to be underwater. What do you expect when you're underwater? Fish.... having to find a way to breathe.... different types of movement and the speed of such... things being blue.... maybe depth pressure or changes in temperature if you wanted to get technical..... cephalopods.... sometimes Godzilla. Regardless, take away some of those major aspects..... movement speed/type, having to breathe, Godzilla, and what do you have? A Peanut substitute.
We have to at least come to a middle ground here in at least one facet of this conversation... and if its ANYTHING to compromise on, its that Endless breathing underwater (along with just about everyone having this capability, though if this is strictly based on consumables only then thats a different story, but yet to be seen) and Absolutely NO movement penalty is not what you would USUALLY expect from underwater content.
We have to at least come to a middle ground here in at least one facet of this conversation... and if its ANYTHING to compromise on, its that Endless breathing underwater (along with just about everyone having this capability, though if this is strictly based on consumables only then thats a different story, but yet to be seen) and Absolutely NO movement penalty is not what you would USUALLY expect from underwater content.
People generally don't like what they usually expect from underwater content. Namely a movement penalty and being forced to surface due to a breath meter.
We have to at least come to a middle ground here in at least one facet of this conversation... and if its ANYTHING to compromise on, its that Endless breathing underwater (along with just about everyone having this capability, though if this is strictly based on consumables only then thats a different story, but yet to be seen) and Absolutely NO movement penalty is not what you would USUALLY expect from underwater content.
People generally don't like what they usually expect from underwater content. Namely a movement penalty and being forced to surface due to a breath meter.
I think that has more to do with the implementation of it and less with the actual restrictions themselves. But my point being, what makes this type of content identifiable and different are the hazards they pose... without them the content could quite literally be any type of content.
I know people don't like to think so, but rules and restrictions are part of games, and they can create challenge, enjoyment and opportunity in the same ways they can take them away. I would have rather had movement consumables and temporary breathing apparatuses then having everything all the time. It takes away the danger and excitement.
We have to at least come to a middle ground here in at least one facet of this conversation... and if its ANYTHING to compromise on, its that Endless breathing underwater (along with just about everyone having this capability, though if this is strictly based on consumables only then thats a different story, but yet to be seen) and Absolutely NO movement penalty is not what you would USUALLY expect from underwater content.
People generally don't like what they usually expect from underwater content. Namely a movement penalty and being forced to surface due to a breath meter.
I think that has more to do with the implementation of it and less with the actual restrictions themselves. But my point being, what makes this type of content identifiable and different are the hazards they pose... without them the content could quite literally be any type of content.
Yes it's any type of content that happens to take place underwater in a fantasy world. You have a new weapon, and new skills you have to learn how to use and when. Since many mobs have an underwater and above water set of skill, you have to decide where it's more advantageous to fight the mob, if they can go above water. You are also passing judgement on content you have yet to play. Other than pathing, and animations issues most of the people who have played the underwater content really enjoyed it. Let's put it this way, if you want restrictions when going underwater go somewhere else. That's not going to be in GW2.
I know people don't like to think so, but rules and restrictions are part of games, and they can create challenge, enjoyment and opportunity in the same ways they can take them away. I would have rather had movement consumables and temporary breathing apparatuses then having everything all the time. It takes away the danger and excitement.
While yes restrictions can create a challenge, enjoyment, in this case that's not the case for most people. The restrictions placed on underwater in most games only serve to annoy people. Again, you are acting like you know it will take away from the danger and excitement? You have yet to play the game, so you can't know it takes away from anything. It could be that it adds to the danger and excitement. Now they have the capability to add more to the underwater world without keeping in mind that you swim slower and you have to watch a breath meter. Should you go into that underwater cave? If your breathing apparatus is knocked off, you wont' be able to swim to the surface in time.
I have yet to play the underwater content, you have yet to play underwater content. I don't know how it will work in the end, neither do you. The only thing we have to go on are the articles from the fan day. And those articles are, for the most part, positive.
I'll restate something I said earlier. If you want to be slowed down when you go underwater and have to worry about your breath go somewhere else. That's not Guild Wars 2, nor will it be Guild Wars 2. ArenaNet stated their reasoning for this, which is rather simple: it's more fun. ArenaNet is creating a game for you to come on and have fun, not come on and have a bunch of burdens while playing 50% of the game.
Now why is this discussion still going on? After 20 pages, we are just going in circles. Let this thread die already. Start a new thread with a new discussion.
I'll restate something I said earlier. If you want to be slowed down when you go underwater and have to worry about your breath go somewhere else. That's not Guild Wars 2, nor will it be Guild Wars 2. ArenaNet stated their reasoning for this, which is rather simple: it's more fun. ArenaNet is creating a game for you to come on and have fun, not come on and have a bunch of burdens while playing 50% of the game.
Now why is this discussion still going on? After 20 pages, we are just going in circles. Let this thread die already. Start a new thread with a new discussion.
While I don't feel it's a big deal to not have penalties during water travel. Your last paragraph really bugs me. I mean first of all, you're still contributing to this thread, so you're adding to the continuation of it. You can start a new thread as well you know?
What it sounds like to me is you're saying I want the last word on the matter, or at least you must have it.
Masked would like penalties and he's giving his reasonings for it, when they're argued against, it's only natural he will respond, just as you probably will reply to me as well. Depending on what's said I may even reply back to you, that's how threads typically go.
The easiest way to discontinue a conversation is to stop continuing it, and agree to disagree. Again if you continue to argue the point, so will the other contributer of said topic.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Meowhead you win internetz. Too much win almost every post in this topic. kudos.
On topic;
what you have is
a) real underwater experience
b) what games normally do (add z vector to movement, add drowning, add slower movement)
c) what gw2 tries to do (add z vector to movement)
when you guys and gals say "its not realistic" what you mean to say is "its not what games normally do". Neither is realistic. you dont want realistic, you want conventional. GW2 is not conventional (or so they say)
Comments
Masked...I'm sorry but this is a silly argument.
Yeah, underwater is just a blue room where:
1. You can move up and down freely
2. There are fish and other aquatic creatures
3. There is underwater plant life
4. There are bubbles
5. All of your skills change to things that would make sense underwater
6. It sounds different, you can hear yourself swimming
But no, none of that stuff matters, because the only thing that lets you know your underwater is moving slower. I mean, by that argument you could say that if there was a levitate spell that let you levitate slowly (ala Elder Scrolls) that there is effectively no difference between levitating and being underwater.
To be honest, I think most people that play GW2 without having all of the info ahead of time won't really care that they are moving faster than they should underwater. They will only notice that underwater content is no longer incredibly annoying as it was in other MMORPGs.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
This pretty much summs it up. I wasn't aiming at Metentso tbh. I was pretty much saying that anyone using the water as an immersion card at this stage is just looking to complain. And trying to make logical comparisons and examples of why the water should slow you down based on real life facts is just funny if you are in my shoes and reading it. As I said poster above summmed it up in more words than I cared to post at the time and Meowhead did a great job when I commented on hers.
RIP Jimmy "The Rev" Sullivan and Paul Gray.
Please read the text in red. You will notice that he actually agrees with me, that it is ultimately a matter of opinion. Why he would follow up and say that lack of immersion is a stupid reason for disliking a game, when he himself just stated that it is a matter of opinion, is beyond me.
Your threshold for what is reasonable to expect in a game with underwater content clearly differs from mine. Bubbles and harpoons are nice and all, but it still doesn't work for me if it feels like I'm merely levitating inside a blue skybox.
But if you think the underwater content feels right, good for you.
Well, and you forgot you have to find a way to breathe underwater, or come up for air. When you're in the air in TES and your spell ends, you fall and get hurt, when you're underwater, you drown if your spell disappears.
To me, its like.... you're in a store and they have two kinds of nuts you can try. One is plain, the other is honey roasted, but they took out the honey and roasted part and put it in a blue container with a napkin under it. They both taste the same for the most part, but one looks a little bit nicer, it may be more aesthetically pleasing, and you might just like walking around holding that blue cup and napkin it came with..... but in its essence, what made it a honey roasted peanut is gone.
Sure I have an XY and Z axis... sure I have a new weapon, and sure the mobs are different, but what makes this underWATER combat and not floating in a blue room combat? Random visuals of bubbles? A splash noise? Perhaps the animations (if they don't run on water at launch) will help, and maybe the interactions with the weapons (though you can't use those weapons outside of water AFAIK so no telling what the same abilities would look like above water).
I'm not saying its not going to be fun to play, I'm just saying... it seems gimmicky, silly, pointless. I think they could have created stronger content somewhere else, in a different manner that would have meshed better. They could still have some underwater content, I just think the way it was implemented was not "just for enjoyment" but because it was easier to make you just run underwater without a breath meter than simulate the usual dangers of being underwater.
Well they already stated that the breathing masks will be consumable, i.e. they will run out at some point. This is exactly the same as a spell of water breathing in TES.
Also, in TES I'm pretty sure you could just enchant an item (any equipabble item) with water breathing and it would be permanent. I mean, what's more realistic..a mask of water breathing, or a ring of water breathing? At least the mask covers your mouth.
And really, I don't think there's anything you could do to make undewater combat different than floating in a blue room combat. You can't actually "feel" the water. And I think it would be ridiculous to have a game model the effects of water pressure on the human body so that you get the bends if you come up to fast.
The only thing that tells you that you are underwater is the fact that if you swim up you surface and the general environmental cues you get.
So I don't really see what you're asking for. You seem to have a viewpoint that can't be satisfied.
You're basically saying that if ANet didn't do anything special with underwater content, then it would have been bland, so why do it at all. But if they DO try to make it better then it's just the same as flying content so it's a waste of effort.
I mean...the fact is that they made the convenience features like accessible underwater breathing and faster movement so that people could actually enjoy the underwater content. If they didn't do this, there is no way their content would have worked. Who wants to do a dynamic event underwater while moving at the speed of a sea slug?
I remember how much I HATED underwater stuff in WoW. It was soooo slow. I would usually go AFK while I waited for my character to swim to where I had to go.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
I think when you play the game you may change your mind. You also have to consider how perspective works with your perception of speed. Like how it looks like the ground is going by very slowly when you are flying high in a plane?
Or how in Everquest everyone though that halflings moved fastests and ogres moved the slowest? It's because when you are higher off the ground, it looks to you like you are going slower.
So I still think that you will "feel" like you are going slower underwater just because you will be floating high off the surface. Even though you are going the same speed. And really, this is all you have been complaining about regarding speed. You want movement in water to "feel" different than it does on land, and I think it will. Just for the perspective issue rather than anything else.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
This, exactly. Ultimately it would be impossible for ANet to simultaneously please those who wish underwater content to be a challenge to overcome and those who don't. Almost every one of these discussions, from mounts, to gear, etc. come down to this aspect. Underwater cannot simultaneously slow you down and make you find solutions to a breathing problem, AND be fun for those who despise those things. Someone will have to be dissatisfied; it is just their lot in life in this case.
Bah, if you want to move around with underwater physics go fly spaceships in EVE.
All die, so die well.
haha this thread is still going? Its a cool feature that wasnt there before. Most people would consider that a bonus. Move on already.
As far as I remember--and you'll have to forgive an old bloke for having a potentially flaky memory, here--they took back the consumable element in a bunch of recent videos, even saying once that many didn't like it because it impeded with simply getting on with gameplay and it felt like an entirely arbitrary hassle, and that after some discussion they just felt that underwater combat shouldn't be restricted, it should simply be fun. And there's their angle, it's fun.
The best games ever and some of my favourite critically acclaimed games have obeyed this rule, just sacrificing some things for the sake of fun, and really... I mean, it's just ridiculous to bring reality into a world that doesn't obey our physical laws. Anyone doiong so is just talking bunkum, and being facetious for the sake of it (which is why I felt the need to be a little bit back). There's just no argument there, it's sort of like dealing with the town fool.
So, what, in Skies of Arcadia they should've obeyed realism and all those floating ships should've just fallen out of the sky?
I mean, it's ridiculous. It's not a hard thing to grasp.
World has magic. World obviously does not obey all of our physical laws.
If we ever experience a reality changing event that changes some of our own physical laws then these people are going to be screwed, because suddenly reality is going to be unrealistic and their brains will explode. >_> Hasn't anyone realised how completely, patently ridiculous this is? It isn't just a boring argument, it's a ludicrous argument, as both I and Meowhead have pointed out.
In a game, for the sake of fun, you set aside reality in favour of fun. And it's easiiy explained by saying that that reality works differently. It doesn't need to work the same as our own. I mean, fuck me, if every reality operates exactly the same as ours then what, pray tell, is the point of escapism? Is there a point? Let's all go play Pizza Delivery Guy with realistic physics so that we experience every pothole in the road! We're talking about a game with bizarre clockpunk technology that couldn't work in our reality, and giant, floating cube cities!! We're talking about a game that has CONTINENT SIZED DRAGONS, and this reality should obey all the physical laws of our own?
Here's the thing...
If that reality obeyed all the physical laws of our own, those dragons would be dead, things that size (which dwarf a T-Rex) would not find a suitable habitat on our world. If you don't understand why then you can ask a physicist to explain it to you, but if you need that help then you're not the sort of person who should be talking about realism or reality.
Now believability? That's a different kettle of fish! But believability comes from CONTEXT. If the world makes sense within its own context, then to the intelligent mind it is believable, because it hasn't defied any of its own laws. I mean, our reality does not have giant cat people, so ArenaNet has to tell us how they work in theirs, and that's believable until they contradict that. By allowing people to move quickly through water, that's fine, because that's just the physical nature of that world at play. Now, if we have bodies of water which we move through at different speeds with no explanation, then you might have a bit of trouble suspending disbelief.
But if you can look at Guild Wars 2 and not suspend disbelief and accept that it's a differnet reality with different physical laws, then you're not an imaginative person, at all, I'm sorry. And here's the thing: Science takes imagination. It always has. Everyone ever who's worked with any advenced form of physics will tell you that it starts with hair-brained ideas and imaginary concepts which have to be proved over time. It's not all rock solid. Science is built upon airy-fairy ideas.
If you really care about realism then exercise the imagination that's required for reality and accept that the world behind your monitor does not operate in the same way as the world on your side of the monitor. Put those energies into something creative and try and figure out how the physical laws of that reality work. I mean, the most limited scientist looks at something and says that is is simply impossible. The clever scientist knows that nothing is impossible and that everything exists in fields of probability. Things can be highly improbable to the point where they may never change, but not impossible.
I don't think any scientist would agree with the idea that another reality, another dimension, couldn't have its own physical laws. It's been a staple in some hard sci-fi books written by people far, far more intelligent than I am.
I'd be with you if it was supposed to be set in our reality, if it was supposed to be Earth or very near Earth, but we're dealing with a world with magic. In a near earth reality game, it might be fun to have to manually put on a scuba pack (oh, wait, even in those games the equipment just tends to magically appear on you, but regardless...) that you've bought, and have an air meter with that, and move slowly underwater, and have such limited visibility that it just ceases to be fun for all but the most realism-craving few. Sure. There are simulation games like that. But this is a fantasy game. It's supposed to be about fun. Rule of Fun is king.
What the argument boils down to really is that some people hate fantasy games. They want medieval games. They want a Mount & Blade MMORPG with just humans and perhaps some token, hard to use magicks, and things as near earth as possible. That's what this is about. And to claim otherwise is bullshit, really, because to bring realism into a fantasy game is so ludicrous that I can't actually believe that the people doing it are talking honestly.
You can rage against Guild Wars 2 for being what it is, but that won't change what it is, it's a high fantasy game with all sorts of crazy things going on - cat people, airships, robots, shapeshifters, magic, continent sized dragons... nothing about ANYTHING in Guild Wars 2 is realistic. So why cry for some element of it to be?
It's never going to be that sort of game. It's never going to be like Mortal Online or some super near-earth-realistic thing.
I just can't understand why some people want it to be when it's clearly its own beast. It should be allowed to be. I just... I find it so incredibly limited (to say it again) to want everything to be near earth, so unimaginative, so uncreative, so lacking in visioin, in drive, in passion, in anything that makes us living, sentient beings. Yes, let's sit around doing boring things. A game like this is about embracing ESCAPISM, it's not about pedantic little bloody details.
Guild Wars 2 will never be about pedantic little details. If you need that then go and play a diving simulator.
Pretty much.
Some people take the stance on, GW2 has underwater content so they had to make this kind of content bearable by removing a speed penalty and making breathing pretty much infinite. They didn't HAVE to have underwater content, it was a decision they made, and then they made these other decisions based on the content they've already created.
My stance is more along the lines of, yeah, okay, so they created this content and then created a way to make this content easily playable, thats great, but it sacrifices parts of the experience that makes this type of content different.
I'm not saying all underwater combat has to be slow, or you always have to go up for breath when underwater, I'm saying that in this particular instance, where they decided they wanted to do this, and just threw it together to make it possible is just a silly way to go about creating content.
Its like, why create spaceships or spacesuits for games that play in space when we could have just used a space "breathing, temperature, and pressure" apparatus so that we can experience intergalactic battles without those pesky ideals that make space...well... space.
While I will play the content, and yes, I'm likely going to enjoy it ... at least in some aspects... as strange as that sounds after so many pages of this argument, unless the content is such a mindblowingly awesome revelation, like the guy who decided that "meat is the new bread" -- to such an extent that the game is nothing but better for it -- unless its like that, I wonder how long it will take for me to get over the feeling that its just a kind of "second class" content.
I may be off the mark but in GW1, I remember running through areas that had water that was knee height and if I recall correctly, don't you run a bit slower?
I may have to reinstall ... at least prophecies and test it out. If I recall correctly one of the first missions you run in prophecies (I remember it distinctly with the necromancer) theres a whole portion where you run through water. Then again its been so long I may just be remembering it wrong.
BOOYAKA!
Its been so long I can't remember. I think I may load it up anyways.
There were certains types of fluidy surfaces (such as tar) which slowed you down, and if I recall icy surfaces also slow you down for some time once you've stopped moving.
Those surfaces actually periodically just put a movement speed debuff on you. It's kind of weird because you're moving all fine on the ice, then the debuff ticks and you're slow as molasses. Also in GW1, you can't even drop off a 1 foot ledge
. I seriously hated all of the invisible walls stuff in GW1 and that's one of the reasons I'm glad GW2 will offer so much freedom. Including the underwater stuff.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
Now that you mention it, the part I think I'm thinking about is some kind of strange surface... I think as you passed through it you lost health or something... and I think it did take a few seconds for that to tick...
Bad example. Let me help you, because I'm awesome with examples.
It's like you're in a store, and you want honey roasted peanuts, right?
So you look at 'Honee Roasted Peanutz in a can, the drink now with .2% more real substances that resemble honey and peanuts' and say 'This kicks ass. This is just like honey roasted peanuts'i
... and I look at 'Huny Roasted Pinut Butter', the 'peanut butter like substance where the makers heard of honey' and say 'Wow, I am totally getting the honey roasted peanut experience now'
The thing is, neither of us are having honey roasted peanuts.
We're both having substitutes. You love the 'real roasted flavor' in your drink, and I think the crunchy 'bits' in my pinut butter are an amazingly simulation of peanut texture.
I like mine, and you like yours.
... but if you say yours is the real honey roasted peanuts while mine is not, I will accuse you of being a crazy person. Yours isn't objectively any more like honey roasted peanuts, and both substances are going to fail chemical analysis hard (Verdict? 'What the hell are you guys eating').
You want a certain thing from your honey roasted peanut analogue, and I'm happy with other, different things. Please don't tell me you're having real honey roasted peanuts and I'm having some shoddy knockoff though. Yours isn't 'real underwater content' it's 'the underwater analogue content you like personally'.
Please don't use spaceships as an example of game content that is immersive travel.
We're talking about the same game industry that basically treats space like atmosphere. Explosions are a dime a dozen, constant thrust to maintain speed, and all sense of scale just dumped out wherever they dump scale when it's no longer useful.
The same game industry that always drastically reduces the amount of space travel time compared to EVERYTHING else.
Oh sure 'Hey, we're using all sorts of awesome space travel gates' like in Mass Effect... but just the time taken to move from planet to gate at sublight speeds should send players into a drool-inducing coma from the weeks of staring at a black screen (With little dots for stars) with no other stimulus.
Space travel is the most fubared, unrealistic, time-dilated form of travel ever in any game, ever.
So... yeah.
The only way they could possibly put underwater content on par with how badly space travel isn't like space travel, would be if it was normal walking content and they mailed you a letter saying 'Hey you're underwater' on a post card you get two days later.
(I swear, I'm not picking on you, even though I quoted two of your posts! I just want you to admit that space travel in all video games ever is bad and unimmersive and about as realistic as something that isn't, and we're both settling for fake underwater content and yours isn't any more real than mine, other than in your head.
)
Actually...time dilation is very realistic. In fact, assuming that the spacecraft are able to reach close to lightspeed, realistic space travel would mean that if you traveled to somewhere 2 light years away then 2 years would pass for the people at your destination, but only a few days would pass for you.
I'd like to see someone implement that lol
.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
I'll keep the space portion out simply because I'm not an astronaut.
I gotta tell you though, normally I see where you're going and I can agree with you, or find some milk chocolatey and caramel common ground, but here I think you took my analogy, and not only made it more confusing, but missed the mark on the point I think we were both going after here.
Keeping with the peanut analogy, you are essentially saying we both want peanuts, but we're ending up with a peanut substitute. While I get this, the point I'm making is.. in your analogy, we came for peanuts and left with something that IS a substitute, that doesn't resemble either of what we came for, and instead accepting what they are telling us we want, whereas I'm saying that on one side (mine) theres some commonality on the identifiers of said... peanuts, and on the other side these factors are removed. So while it might not be a 1 to 1 comparison with RL peanuts, in the virtual peanut market its just a couple of the major identifiers we have.
You say we came for honey roasted peanuts, and instead we get honey roasted peanut flavoring in... a can.. or a butter.. or a juice I'm not sure where you went with that one.... but in this instance, they are telling us we're getting Honey Roasted peanuts, but we're getting something that only resembles honey roasted peanuts in name and not in taste, function, or... texture... I guess.
The main thing here is that they are telling us this is underwater combat, that we are underwater, and by saying this people should expect to be underwater. What do you expect when you're underwater? Fish.... having to find a way to breathe.... different types of movement and the speed of such... things being blue.... maybe depth pressure or changes in temperature if you wanted to get technical..... cephalopods.... sometimes Godzilla. Regardless, take away some of those major aspects..... movement speed/type, having to breathe, Godzilla, and what do you have? A Peanut substitute.
We have to at least come to a middle ground here in at least one facet of this conversation... and if its ANYTHING to compromise on, its that Endless breathing underwater (along with just about everyone having this capability, though if this is strictly based on consumables only then thats a different story, but yet to be seen) and Absolutely NO movement penalty is not what you would USUALLY expect from underwater content.
People generally don't like what they usually expect from underwater content. Namely a movement penalty and being forced to surface due to a breath meter.
I think that has more to do with the implementation of it and less with the actual restrictions themselves. But my point being, what makes this type of content identifiable and different are the hazards they pose... without them the content could quite literally be any type of content.
I know people don't like to think so, but rules and restrictions are part of games, and they can create challenge, enjoyment and opportunity in the same ways they can take them away. I would have rather had movement consumables and temporary breathing apparatuses then having everything all the time. It takes away the danger and excitement.
I'll restate something I said earlier. If you want to be slowed down when you go underwater and have to worry about your breath go somewhere else. That's not Guild Wars 2, nor will it be Guild Wars 2. ArenaNet stated their reasoning for this, which is rather simple: it's more fun. ArenaNet is creating a game for you to come on and have fun, not come on and have a bunch of burdens while playing 50% of the game.
Now why is this discussion still going on? After 20 pages, we are just going in circles. Let this thread die already. Start a new thread with a new discussion.
While I don't feel it's a big deal to not have penalties during water travel. Your last paragraph really bugs me. I mean first of all, you're still contributing to this thread, so you're adding to the continuation of it. You can start a new thread as well you know?
What it sounds like to me is you're saying I want the last word on the matter, or at least you must have it.
Masked would like penalties and he's giving his reasonings for it, when they're argued against, it's only natural he will respond, just as you probably will reply to me as well. Depending on what's said I may even reply back to you, that's how threads typically go.
The easiest way to discontinue a conversation is to stop continuing it, and agree to disagree. Again if you continue to argue the point, so will the other contributer of said topic.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Meowhead you win internetz. Too much win almost every post in this topic. kudos.
On topic;
what you have is
a) real underwater experience
b) what games normally do (add z vector to movement, add drowning, add slower movement)
c) what gw2 tries to do (add z vector to movement)
when you guys and gals say "its not realistic" what you mean to say is "its not what games normally do". Neither is realistic. you dont want realistic, you want conventional. GW2 is not conventional (or so they say)
I need more vespene gas.