It's important that this MMO fails for the genre, otherwise we will see many more years of SWTOR clones which means many more years of WoW clones with cutscenes and probably made more linear.
If SWTOR fails then we'll see a complete attitude change towards the genre and they'll have to do something new and innovative to kick start it again.
Funny enough I find myself hoping on SOE because their next two games are going to be sandboxes.... I never thought I would but there really is nothing to look forward to other than Planetside, EQ3 and whatever Bethesda does.
Yes, it's important what is likely the biggest budget mmo to fail. That will really drive investors to throw money at future games, innovative or not. Sheesh, learn business dude.
Not that I want SWTOR to fail, but if SWTOR failed and another MMORPG game was insanely successful...that wouldn't really kill the genre.
The genre will only die if there is a decline in the whole MMORPG industry. One game failing won't kill it. For example, if SWTOR fails, but GW2, TSW, and Archeage are insanely successful...the genre will be fine.
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OmaliMMO Business CorrespondentMemberUncommonPosts: 1,177
Originally posted by Venekor
It's important that this MMO fails for the genre, otherwise we will see many more years of SWTOR clones which means many more years of WoW clones with cutscenes and probably made more linear.
If SWTOR fails then we'll see a complete attitude change towards the genre and they'll have to do something new and innovative to kick start it again.
Funny enough I find myself hoping on SOE because their next two games are going to be sandboxes.... I never thought I would but there really is nothing to look forward to other than Planetside, EQ3 and whatever Bethesda does.
Yea, TOR should fail and go bankrupt and Bioware should go out of business and the employees should be unemployed and have to live on soylent green rations to stay alive and feed their family, because EA dare to make a themepark MMO for the millions of people who enjoy it, rather than listen to the musings of a random sandbox fanboy on an internet forum, and inject those millions into the niche-sector of an already niche genre so maybe ten thousand people can subscribe if the game goes enormously successful.
Yea, TOR should fail and go bankrupt and Bioware should go out of business and the employees should be unemployed and have to live on soylent green rations to stay alive and feed their family, because EA dare to make a themepark MMO for the millions of people who enjoy it, rather than listen to the musings of a random sandbox fanboy on an internet forum.
You'll show them who is boss.
Considering how much trolling they do For The Cause, it's almost like they're getting paid.
Or are they just religious Zealots?
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
It's important that this MMO fails for the genre, otherwise we will see many more years of SWTOR clones which means many more years of WoW clones with cutscenes and probably made more linear.
If SWTOR fails then we'll see a complete attitude change towards the genre and they'll have to do something new and innovative to kick start it again.
Funny enough I find myself hoping on SOE because their next two games are going to be sandboxes.... I never thought I would but there really is nothing to look forward to other than Planetside, EQ3 and whatever Bethesda does.
If TOR fail then it means you can't make an MMO with a 80 million dollar budget, arguable the most famus IP in the westren world, and with one of the greatest video game developers.
Yeah that will propel the genre forward.
As a bussness man I doubt making an MMO would seem very profitable if TOR fails, and thus would no want to fund the making of one.
No it means you cant spend 80million dollars copying tired ideas and hope to get rich(er).
It's important that this MMO fails for the genre, otherwise we will see many more years of SWTOR clones which means many more years of WoW clones with cutscenes and probably made more linear.
If SWTOR fails then we'll see a complete attitude change towards the genre and they'll have to do something new and innovative to kick start it again.
Funny enough I find myself hoping on SOE because their next two games are going to be sandboxes.... I never thought I would but there really is nothing to look forward to other than Planetside, EQ3 and whatever Bethesda does.
That's pretty sad and flawed reasoning. Developers have a much easier time getting their funding if they can convince investors that the industry is growing and healthy; Swtor's potential succes could have a big impact on that, also by drawing in many people who haven't played mmorpgs before and subsequently increasing the overall mmorpg market share.
And without WOW there wouldn't be WOW clones but there wouldn't be as much sandbox alternatives instead either.
The bigger the industry, the more chance for indy and bigger devs to also make competing products that distinguish themselves from the big players and tap into niches of the marktet.
Of course there will always be copycats of succesful formula's. In any market. But the fact that there hasn't been a sandbox mmorpg on the scale of WOW says as much about failing developers as of the mmorpg gamer demography. And I am curious if we would have been so interested in all those popular sandbox game's clones either.
Big mmorpgs failing isn't in our interests at all.
No, I think Venekor has a point. We've tried it for 7, almost 8 years as you describe and I'd like you to please point out to me the AAA MMORPG that is sandbox that has been made as a counter choice to all the AAA themeparks that have rolled out and under performed since 2004.
I'm not campaigning for TOR to "flop". I honestly don't give the game that much of my time for thought. That said, it is very easy to see that if it does do very well the developers in this industry will near 96% total try to follow suit. Which means 7 more years of a certain segement of this genre's population not getting a game that they can enjoy.
And the F'd up thing about it is that segement, by and large, are the folks that got this genre off the ground as customers while all the rest were playing RTS and FPS games.
Ideally I'd like to see TOR do ok and 3 or 4 AAA sandbox / SANDpark (emphasis on sand) games arise. That way themepark folks have TOR plus the whole slew of other AAA themeparks made over the last 7 years and sandbox fans would now have a few choice for AAA calibre sandboxes.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Yea, TOR should fail and go bankrupt and Bioware should go out of business and the employees should be unemployed and have to live on soylent green rations to stay alive and feed their family, because EA dare to make a themepark MMO for the millions of people who enjoy it, rather than listen to the musings of a random sandbox fanboy on an internet forum.
You'll show them who is boss.
Considering how much trolling they do For The Cause, it's almost like they're getting paid.
Or are they just religious Zealots?
Ya know if I could get paid to troll for a Modern version of Ultima Online.. I'd sign up. I'm not really the overly religious type so I have to skip that route... maybe if it was a cult tho...
But ya anyone saying that a game must fail because they don't like it... I don't really "get it". Sure I'd love to have someone make the game I really want but anyway...
I'm not campaigning for TOR to "flop". I honestly don't give the game that much of my time for thought. That said, it is very easy to see that if it does do very well the developers in this industry will near 96% total try to follow suit. Which means 7 more years of a certain segement of this genre's population not getting a game that they can enjoy.
In other words, the free market is working as intended, and the minority has failed to make an impact, despite the veritable novels of material they churn out in their fervent ardor to change the world.
You have an option, of course. You can try to convince the developers to try new directions, rather than actively trolling and derailing every single thread on THIS forum. You can invest your cash in the indie sandboxes, even when they don't meet your :sniff: standards, in the hope that one of them will catch on, and the added budget will allow it to become an excellent game some day.
Or you can continue to derail and wring your hands about your dreadful plight ineffectually on mmorpg.com. As you noted, that hasn't been effective for the last seven years, but hey keep on trying! If it hasn't worked in the past, it's sure to work in the future.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Let's face it, people will vote with their wallets. If it fails it fails but if SWTOR is a great game it will succeed. Simple financial maths. I wish I could see how many people vote with their wallets 3 years into the future but time will tell.
It's important that this MMO fails for the genre, otherwise we will see many more years of SWTOR clones which means many more years of WoW clones with cutscenes and probably made more linear.
If SWTOR fails then we'll see a complete attitude change towards the genre and they'll have to do something new and innovative to kick start it again.
Funny enough I find myself hoping on SOE because their next two games are going to be sandboxes.... I never thought I would but there really is nothing to look forward to other than Planetside, EQ3 and whatever Bethesda does.
Did your parents have kids that lived? Just kidding. I wish all the 20 somethings would pull their heads out of whatever hole in dark its in and realize MMOs didn't start with WoW. WoW is a clone pure and simple. The model of dumbing down games to get more casual players paying monthly subs was the only orignal idea they had... PERIOD!
If TOR fails, it will cause a shift in attitude, but not the shift you are wanting. Companies will not be willing to invest huge amounts of money in the hopes that they can make huge profits. Time will tell, but if TOR fails, you may not get sandbox style games either. God forbid we be left with SOE and Blizzard as the big developers. SOE can't be trusted for anything but screwing up what isn't broken while ignoring known bugs, and Blizzard could care less about anything but the almighty dollar and hackers continue to steal peeps info while turn a blind eye. No, I hope TOR succeeds for no other reason than to prove that good games can still be produced.
It's important that this MMO fails for the genre, otherwise we will see many more years of SWTOR clones which means many more years of WoW clones with cutscenes and probably made more linear.
If SWTOR fails then we'll see a complete attitude change towards the genre and they'll have to do something new and innovative to kick start it again.
Funny enough I find myself hoping on SOE because their next two games are going to be sandboxes.... I never thought I would but there really is nothing to look forward to other than Planetside, EQ3 and whatever Bethesda does.
That's pretty sad and flawed reasoning. Developers have a much easier time getting their funding if they can convince investors that the industry is growing and healthy; Swtor's potential succes could have a big impact on that, also by drawing in many people who haven't played mmorpgs before and subsequently increasing the overall mmorpg market share.
And without WOW there wouldn't be WOW clones but there wouldn't be as much sandbox alternatives instead either.
The bigger the industry, the more chance for indy and bigger devs to also make competing products that distinguish themselves from the big players and tap into niches of the marktet.
Of course there will always be copycats of succesful formula's. In any market. But the fact that there hasn't been a sandbox mmorpg on the scale of WOW says as much about failing developers as of the mmorpg gamer demography. And I am curious if we would have been so interested in all those popular sandbox game's clones either.
Big mmorpgs failing isn't in our interests at all.
No, I think Venekor has a point. We've tried it for 7, almost 8 years as you describe and I'd like you to please point out to me the AAA MMORPG that is sandbox that has been made as a counter choice to all the AAA themeparks that have rolled out and under performed since 2004.
I'm not campaigning for TOR to "flop". I honestly don't give the game that much of my time for thought. That said, it is very easy to see that if it does do very well the developers in this industry will near 96% total try to follow suit. Which means 7 more years of a certain segement of this genre's population not getting a game that they can enjoy.
And the F'd up thing about it is that segement, by and large, are the folks that got this genre off the ground as customers while all the rest were playing RTS and FPS games.
Ideally I'd like to see TOR do ok and 3 or 4 AAA sandbox / SANDpark (emphasis on sand) games arise. That way themepark folks have TOR plus the whole slew of other AAA themeparks made over the last 7 years and sandbox fans would now have a few choice for AAA calibre sandboxes.
Theres reasons we don't see sandbox games, it has nothing to do with developers not creating AAA games. Its not like there aren't sandbox games out there either.
SWTOR is set for a particular demographic.... a demographic that has already been proven to be much larger than the entire sandbox fanbase. These are BioWare customers. BioWare games have sold multiple millions of their titles across all platforms. What they did is smart business sense.
Other developers have tried sandbox titles, but players never last. They blame this on these low budget, inexperienced developers, but the truth is, the market just really isn't there for random, unnamed sandbox titles. An elder scrolls title, or a fallout title that allows for sandbox gameplay would likely pull in the Bethesda crowd which could be huge, but apart from that, no company will be willing to put in any funds on anything if the market just isn't there.
BioWares success will only benefit the genre. How many developers have tried to take BioWares level of storytelling and gameplay? Nobody does it like BioWare, and theres no reason to believe they'd try to with the launch of SWTOR. What it will show them is that putting hard work and polish is what needs to happen if they want to stay in the competitive subscription market, and thats the most important thing.
Yea, TOR should fail and go bankrupt and Bioware should go out of business and the employees should be unemployed and have to live on soylent green rations to stay alive and feed their family, because EA dare to make a themepark MMO for the millions of people who enjoy it, rather than listen to the musings of a random sandbox fanboy on an internet forum.
You'll show them who is boss.
Considering how much trolling they do For The Cause, it's almost like they're getting paid.
Or are they just religious Zealots?
Ya know if I could get paid to troll for a Modern version of Ultima Online.. I'd sign up. I'm not really the overly religious type so I have to skip that route... maybe if it was a cult tho...
Its all about playing what you want, enjoy it or dont play it. As far as the Subs and such..they were discussing their subs #'s vs ease of cash flow to model game play/staying power of title.
But ya anyone saying that a game must fail because they don't like it... I don't really "get it". Sure I'd love to have someone make the game I really want but anyway...
....Being Banned from MMORPG's forums since 2010, for Trolling the Trolls!!!
It's important that this MMO fails for the genre, otherwise we will see many more years of SWTOR clones which means many more years of WoW clones with cutscenes and probably made more linear.
If SWTOR fails then we'll see a complete attitude change towards the genre and they'll have to do something new and innovative to kick start it again.
Funny enough I find myself hoping on SOE because their next two games are going to be sandboxes.... I never thought I would but there really is nothing to look forward to other than Planetside, EQ3 and whatever Bethesda does.
I was going to create a long "are you crazy" post here but the bottom line is that anyone who wants any MMO to fail, ESPECIALLY SWTOR, has absolutely 0 business sense and explaining it all would be a complete waste of time. I am not trying to be insulting but this is such a silly thing to want .
Just to be clear, you think "sandbox" equates to Innovative? Also, you think there is nothing at all innovative, not one unique thing, in TOR? Are those accurate questions.
A lot, and I do mean A LOT of sandbox fans speak of sandbox games as being innovative. Of course in order to call a sandbox game innovative just because it's sandbox you have to completely redefine the word innovative. The truth is people throw that word 'innovative' around because it sounds good, they rarely put much thought into what the word actually means.
I'm a sandbox fan, but please don't bundle me in with these "It has to be sandbox to be innovative" crowd. I want SW:TOR to be a HUGE success not only because I like Bioware or love the Star Wars IP, but because it will be very healthy for the MMO industry. For far too long the MMO industry has been like a funky chef throwing different colored and flavored balls of dung at a crowd, eventually one will find a flavor or color that's appealing but face it, they are all shit in the end.
Not all sandbox fans are closed minded and ignorant about buisiness models and the need for producers/production companies to attach funding. Some companies have gotten away with it, but anyone who understands how producers work in the games or movie industry would understand why.
If and when SW:TOR is a success that will make those Indy companies or start up gaming programers easier to both find jobs and pitch their ideas to larger production companies, those production companies will in turn become hard assed about who they let fund and they will be an inner industry crap-o-meter just like the movies. When they find that shining jewel in the rough they will know to fund the hell out of it, that's how movies in Hollywood work, well for the most part.
Face it, a Healthy SW:TOR release means a healthy MMO industry whether or not you understand why.
I'm not campaigning for TOR to "flop". I honestly don't give the game that much of my time for thought. That said, it is very easy to see that if it does do very well the developers in this industry will near 96% total try to follow suit. Which means 7 more years of a certain segement of this genre's population not getting a game that they can enjoy.
In other words, the free market is working as intended, and the minority has failed to make an impact, despite the veritable novels of material they churn out in their fervent ardor to change the world.
You have an option, of course. You can try to convince the developers to try new directions, rather than actively trolling and derailing every single thread on THIS forum. You can invest your cash in the indie sandboxes, even when they don't meet your :sniff: standards, in the hope that one of them will catch on, and the added budget will allow it to become an excellent game some day.
Or you can continue to derail and wring your hands about your dreadful plight ineffectually on mmorpg.com. As you noted, that hasn't been effective for the last seven years, but hey keep on trying! If it hasn't worked in the past, it's sure to work in the future.
The only troll I see here is this post. Indeed, please do find where I have trolled or derailed a single thread in THIS forum. I'll save you time, you can't. You just took it upon yourself to ASSume because I share some opinions of those who have been attacking your precious baby all this time.
Well, again, sorry, I haven't been one of those. I've stayed away from this forum as much as possible. Indeed the only reason I replied here is because I've enjoyed Dark Pony's posts over the YEARS andI know that he wouldn't jump the shark on some jerkish reply like...oh...wait...
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
It's important that this MMO fails for the genre, otherwise we will see many more years of SWTOR clones which means many more years of WoW clones with cutscenes and probably made more linear.
If SWTOR fails then we'll see a complete attitude change towards the genre and they'll have to do something new and innovative to kick start it again.
Funny enough I find myself hoping on SOE because their next two games are going to be sandboxes.... I never thought I would but there really is nothing to look forward to other than Planetside, EQ3 and whatever Bethesda does.
God i wish people like you would stop posting.
You will always have your sandbox games, and people who enjoy sandbox games will always flock to them before going to games like SWTOR that have story and content that doesn't need to be made up by the players...What WoW has taught us is that the vast majority of players DON'T want a sandbox...if Eve were as popular as WoW then we'd be seeing the opposite...so basically what you're getting at is that you want everyone to create games that cater to the minority, rather than the majority...and I know what you're thinking, "well if they just played a good sandbox they'd see that it's superior!" WRONG!! How many people have played Eve and found it overly complex and intimidating? How many people quit SWG because there was just nothing to do?
note: for the record, I enjoy both equally as well. I played Eve for quite awhile as well as SWG...but I also played WoW and numerous others.
People like you are what's wrong with this genre because you think that the rise of one will mean the inherent fall of the other...and you have no regard for the supply and demand model of business. Don't you think that these companies would make sandbox games if there was better profit in it? Fact is, Eve is the WoW of sandbox games and I don't really see a sandbox game getting any more popular than Eve is already. You point to Planetside but that game's not really a sandbox, I don't know if you ever played the original but there was nothing in it except fighting...I'd hardly call a game where 100% of the content is killing each other in pvp to be sandbox.
You need to wake up and realize that, had Bioware made a sandbox like you and your ilk wanted, the game wouldn't have been as successful as the game that they made instead. SWG demonstrates this, Eve demonstrates this, Darkfall demonstrates this. And don't tell me "OH BUT SWG ONLY FAILED CAUSE SOE" NO...SWG failed because there was a lack of directed content from launch and SOE never truly did anything about it (an error that Eve has corrected, directed content eases players into the sandbox mentality). People can live with bugs, they CAN'T live with there benig nothing to do.
SWTOR will be a huge success so long as Bioware can deliver end game content and continue to deliver steady updates. If not, it'll be another Warhammer online, or DCU Online. I hope it doesn't turn out that way because I've played the game extensively and see a ton of potential...but hey, I'm a realist.
Your argument is like a two legged dog with an eating disorder...weak and unbalanced.
Face it, a Healthy SW:TOR release means a healthy MMO industry whether or not you understand why.
And a healthy GW2, and several other games a year away.
The only way to get a Major to take sandboxes seriously is by competition driving them to look in new directions in a rough (lots of big players) market.
And for that to happen, the Behemoth's stranglehold must be broken, even if only by another themepark(s).
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
I'm not campaigning for TOR to "flop". I honestly don't give the game that much of my time for thought. That said, it is very easy to see that if it does do very well the developers in this industry will near 96% total try to follow suit. Which means 7 more years of a certain segement of this genre's population not getting a game that they can enjoy.
In other words, the free market is working as intended, and the minority has failed to make an impact, despite the veritable novels of material they churn out in their fervent ardor to change the world.
You have an option, of course. You can try to convince the developers to try new directions, rather than actively trolling and derailing every single thread on THIS forum. You can invest your cash in the indie sandboxes, even when they don't meet your :sniff: standards, in the hope that one of them will catch on, and the added budget will allow it to become an excellent game some day.
Or you can continue to derail and wring your hands about your dreadful plight ineffectually on mmorpg.com. As you noted, that hasn't been effective for the last seven years, but hey keep on trying! If it hasn't worked in the past, it's sure to work in the future.
Well said, but in the end purists like that have always ruined everything for themselves anyway. That won't change, they set their expectations too high. While they lambast everything for not meeting them. Especially on the subject of sandboxes, that genre has always been about supporting a shell until it has become something more. Look at UO, look at EVE, SWG would have went that path as well with competent management.
Sandboxes have always been about growing pains and fan support, the problem is the fans expect wow like polish from a design that goes against the very nature of why WOW was able to be so polished, limited scope.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
The only troll I see here is this post. Indeed, please do find where I have trolled or derailed a single thread in THIS forum. I'll save you time, you can't. You just took it upon yourself to ASSume because I share some opinions of those who have been attacking your precious baby all this time.
Good guess but no. TOR is not My Precious Baby.
There's only one fanboy in this conversation, and it's the sandbox lovers. Since they have no actual game to focus the fanboy on, they've chosen instead an idea, the reverent SANDBOX. But their zealotry is every bit as strong as the most strident WoW Kid.
If you want to see some thread derailment and trolling, just read back through the previous fifty threads in this forum. The same people, the same derail, it happens every...single...day.
See sig. Guess what inspired it?
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
“We're looking at pre-order campaigns and telemetry coming in from retail as well as online to get a sense of the overall base, and it's very strong. We're pretty relaxed about what we're going to be able to achieve there.”
snip
“What we told folks was that this is a product that it starts to make profitability about 500,000 subs. At about 1m subs, it's a business that makes good money on an ongoing basis but it doesn't feel great about the historical investment that sort of got us here,” he admitted.
“And anything north of 1m, as we approach 1.5m or 2m, starts to look like a great investment and justifies the entire purchase price of VGH stock filed in a very positive way.”
I see nothing about being worried. Just them stating what they consider profitable or a very good investment.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
No, I think Venekor has a point. We've tried it for 7, almost 8 years as you describe and I'd like you to please point out to me the AAA MMORPG that is sandbox that has been made as a counter choice to all the AAA themeparks that have rolled out and under performed since 2004.
I'm not campaigning for TOR to "flop". I honestly don't give the game that much of my time for thought. That said, it is very easy to see that if it does do very well the developers in this industry will near 96% total try to follow suit. Which means 7 more years of a certain segement of this genre's population not getting a game that they can enjoy.
And the F'd up thing about it is that segement, by and large, are the folks that got this genre off the ground as customers while all the rest were playing RTS and FPS games.
Ideally I'd like to see TOR do ok and 3 or 4 AAA sandbox / SANDpark (emphasis on sand) games arise. That way themepark folks have TOR plus the whole slew of other AAA themeparks made over the last 7 years and sandbox fans would now have a few choice for AAA calibre sandboxes.
Theres reasons we don't see sandbox games, it has nothing to do with developers not creating AAA games. Its not like there aren't sandbox games out there either.
SWTOR is set for a particular demographic.... a demographic that has already been proven to be much larger than the entire sandbox fanbase. These are BioWare customers. BioWare games have sold multiple millions of their titles across all platforms. What they did is smart business sense.
Other developers have tried sandbox titles, but players never last. They blame this on these low budget, inexperienced developers, but the truth is, the market just really isn't there for random, unnamed sandbox titles. An elder scrolls title, or a fallout title that allows for sandbox gameplay would likely pull in the Bethesda crowd which could be huge, but apart from that, no company will be willing to put in any funds on anything if the market just isn't there.
BioWares success will only benefit the genre. How many developers have tried to take BioWares level of storytelling and gameplay? Nobody does it like BioWare, and theres no reason to believe they'd try to with the launch of SWTOR. What it will show them is that putting hard work and polish is what needs to happen if they want to stay in the competitive subscription market, and thats the most important thing.
As far as I know have only on sandbox AAA MMO been made so far, UO. UO did have an experienced team and it did really well for it's time. And the reason I don't mention Eve here is that it was released by a team that was unexperienced at the time and had a low budget.
The fact is that we have no real clue if a AAA sandbox game would work fine or not because so few have been made, and most AAA games actually flops even though they are themeparks.
I am not saying that Bioware should make a sandbox game, that would probably be a very bad idea, it is not what they are good at and devs that don't do what they are good at fails.
The market is not ready for random unnamed MMO titles at all. Look on the huge games, they were all made by experienced crews no matter what, MMOs are really hard to make.
Saying that sandboxes or themeparks are better than the other type is stupid, both have huge potential which almost all companies just mess up.
I personally believe that the next big sandbox game will be World of darkness online, it have an experienced team, a good budget and a popular IP that CCP owns.
But this whole thing have nothing to do with TOR. The Star wars IP works for both types of games and Bioware is making the right call to make the type of game they are famous for.
90% of all MMOs fail and the number gets even higher if you just count low budget games. Using that statistic to prove that the few sandbox games that have been made since 2004 failed does not prove anything at all.
It's important that this MMO fails for the genre, otherwise we will see many more years of SWTOR clones which means many more years of WoW clones with cutscenes and probably made more linear.
If SWTOR fails then we'll see a complete attitude change towards the genre and they'll have to do something new and innovative to kick start it again.
Funny enough I find myself hoping on SOE because their next two games are going to be sandboxes.... I never thought I would but there really is nothing to look forward to other than Planetside, EQ3 and whatever Bethesda does.
That's pretty sad and flawed reasoning. Developers have a much easier time getting their funding if they can convince investors that the industry is growing and healthy; Swtor's potential succes could have a big impact on that, also by drawing in many people who haven't played mmorpgs before and subsequently increasing the overall mmorpg market share.
And without WOW there wouldn't be WOW clones but there wouldn't be as much sandbox alternatives instead either.
The bigger the industry, the more chance for indy and bigger devs to also make competing products that distinguish themselves from the big players and tap into niches of the marktet.
Of course there will always be copycats of succesful formula's. In any market. But the fact that there hasn't been a sandbox mmorpg on the scale of WOW says as much about failing developers as of the mmorpg gamer demography. And I am curious if we would have been so interested in all those popular sandbox game's clones either.
Big mmorpgs failing isn't in our interests at all.
No, I think Venekor has a point. We've tried it for 7, almost 8 years as you describe and I'd like you to please point out to me the AAA MMORPG that is sandbox that has been made as a counter choice to all the AAA themeparks that have rolled out and under performed since 2004.
I'm not campaigning for TOR to "flop". I honestly don't give the game that much of my time for thought. That said, it is very easy to see that if it does do very well the developers in this industry will near 96% total try to follow suit. Which means 7 more years of a certain segement of this genre's population not getting a game that they can enjoy.
And the F'd up thing about it is that segement, by and large, are the folks that got this genre off the ground as customers while all the rest were playing RTS and FPS games.
Ideally I'd like to see TOR do ok and 3 or 4 AAA sandbox / SANDpark (emphasis on sand) games arise. That way themepark folks have TOR plus the whole slew of other AAA themeparks made over the last 7 years and sandbox fans would now have a few choice for AAA calibre sandboxes.
Theres reasons we don't see sandbox games, it has nothing to do with developers not creating AAA games. Its not like there aren't sandbox games out there either.
SWTOR is set for a particular demographic.... a demographic that has already been proven to be much larger than the entire sandbox fanbase. These are BioWare customers. BioWare games have sold multiple millions of their titles across all platforms. What they did is smart business sense.
Other developers have tried sandbox titles, but players never last. They blame this on these low budget, inexperienced developers, but the truth is, the market just really isn't there for random, unnamed sandbox titles. An elder scrolls title, or a fallout title that allows for sandbox gameplay would likely pull in the Bethesda crowd which could be huge, but apart from that, no company will be willing to put in any funds on anything if the market just isn't there.
BioWares success will only benefit the genre. How many developers have tried to take BioWares level of storytelling and gameplay? Nobody does it like BioWare, and theres no reason to believe they'd try to with the launch of SWTOR. What it will show them is that putting hard work and polish is what needs to happen if they want to stay in the competitive subscription market, and thats the most important thing.
Sure, Masked, for those who enjoy such games. For the ever growing segement that is getting tired of the "race to max level, end-game for 2 months, move on to next game" rat race the success of this game brings...nothing?
This genre is indeed big enough such that one company can put forth a AAA sandbox effort and it wouldn't kill all the themepark hounds out there. No, I'm not stating that this effort should have come with TOR. Far from it. That said, based on the past 7 years of data I don't see how TOR's success benefits anyone who wants a sandbox game. I'm much more of the view that it puts close to the final nail in the coffin.
(and before there are any snarky little quips back of "good" like it hurts me, sorry, you fail. I have tons of hobbies and indeed you [in the general sense or @ those who make such quip] fail as pushing more people out of the genre is not a good thing).
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
We'll get to see if this game will flop or not in Sept (that when beta is?) and I reckon the usual will happen on these forums. You'll have lots of people getting banned saying the game sucks with a load of people blindlessly trying to defend the game by shooting down valid claims. Then once the game is releaed everyone will buy it so sales will be high but after that first sub date the population will drop off like crazy and everyone wonders why they wasted £130 on crap.
People will work out that the game is just like WoW and they're bored of that formula. On the Giantbomb Podcast Jeff said he got to play it and it plays exactly like WoW and he isn't interested in that any more. I reckon that is how most people will think and get fed up of the game pretty quickly. Not only that but they cannot live upto Blizzard's quality in things like feel of the combat. Bioware have never made a good combat system, they're always the weakest things about their games and so far SWTORs looks pretty bad. People will get fed up of linear mini game space battles and watching boring cutscenes all the time. I know when I group with friends everyone just wants to skip them as they become annoying.
I reckon when this game flops it'll be the single greatest thing for this genre. Developers will realise that we are sick of WoW and want something new and that is what we'll get.
Originally posted by KhalathwyrSure, Masked, for those who enjoy such games. For the ever growing segement that is getting tired of the "race to max level, end-game for 2 months, move on to next game" rat race the success of this game brings...nothing?
Then one is compelled to ask...why are you here?
The game holds no interest for you. Perhaps another forum would serve you better?
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
The only troll I see here is this post. Indeed, please do find where I have trolled or derailed a single thread in THIS forum. I'll save you time, you can't. You just took it upon yourself to ASSume because I share some opinions of those who have been attacking your precious baby all this time.
Good guess but no. TOR is not My Precious Baby.
There's only one fanboy in this conversation, and it's the sandbox lovers. Since they have no actual game to focus the fanboy on, they've chosen instead an idea, the reverent SANDBOX. But their zealotry is every bit as strong as the most strident WoW Kid.
If you want to see some thread derailment and trolling, just read back through the previous fifty posts in this forums. The same people, the same derail, it happens every...single...day.
See sig. Guess what inspired it?
Icewhite, I couldn't care less about your crusade against your perceived derailing and trolling by others. That has nothing to do with me or my comments earlier. I did not, and still do not, appreciate you accusing me of either when it's very clear that I wasn't. It was very much uncalled for.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
I am very positive that the game will do extremely well not to mention suck the life out of WoW's western subscriber base. There are 8 basic classes with their own personal story with 200 hours of content per class, operations, flashpoints and pvp. The game is already selling like hotcakes and it is Star Wars. It can flop but highly doubt it. Lets not forget Bioware is making this game. I know I sound like a fanboy but so be it. See yas at launch!
Comments
Not that I want SWTOR to fail, but if SWTOR failed and another MMORPG game was insanely successful...that wouldn't really kill the genre.
The genre will only die if there is a decline in the whole MMORPG industry. One game failing won't kill it. For example, if SWTOR fails, but GW2, TSW, and Archeage are insanely successful...the genre will be fine.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
Yea, TOR should fail and go bankrupt and Bioware should go out of business and the employees should be unemployed and have to live on soylent green rations to stay alive and feed their family, because EA dare to make a themepark MMO for the millions of people who enjoy it, rather than listen to the musings of a random sandbox fanboy on an internet forum, and inject those millions into the niche-sector of an already niche genre so maybe ten thousand people can subscribe if the game goes enormously successful.
You'll show them who is boss.
Considering how much trolling they do For The Cause, it's almost like they're getting paid.
Or are they just religious Zealots?
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
No it means you cant spend 80million dollars copying tired ideas and hope to get rich(er).
No, I think Venekor has a point. We've tried it for 7, almost 8 years as you describe and I'd like you to please point out to me the AAA MMORPG that is sandbox that has been made as a counter choice to all the AAA themeparks that have rolled out and under performed since 2004.
I'm not campaigning for TOR to "flop". I honestly don't give the game that much of my time for thought. That said, it is very easy to see that if it does do very well the developers in this industry will near 96% total try to follow suit. Which means 7 more years of a certain segement of this genre's population not getting a game that they can enjoy.
And the F'd up thing about it is that segement, by and large, are the folks that got this genre off the ground as customers while all the rest were playing RTS and FPS games.
Ideally I'd like to see TOR do ok and 3 or 4 AAA sandbox / SANDpark (emphasis on sand) games arise. That way themepark folks have TOR plus the whole slew of other AAA themeparks made over the last 7 years and sandbox fans would now have a few choice for AAA calibre sandboxes.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Chavez y Chavez
Ya know if I could get paid to troll for a Modern version of Ultima Online.. I'd sign up. I'm not really the overly religious type so I have to skip that route... maybe if it was a cult tho...
But ya anyone saying that a game must fail because they don't like it... I don't really "get it". Sure I'd love to have someone make the game I really want but anyway...
In other words, the free market is working as intended, and the minority has failed to make an impact, despite the veritable novels of material they churn out in their fervent ardor to change the world.
You have an option, of course. You can try to convince the developers to try new directions, rather than actively trolling and derailing every single thread on THIS forum. You can invest your cash in the indie sandboxes, even when they don't meet your :sniff: standards, in the hope that one of them will catch on, and the added budget will allow it to become an excellent game some day.
Or you can continue to derail and wring your hands about your dreadful plight ineffectually on mmorpg.com. As you noted, that hasn't been effective for the last seven years, but hey keep on trying! If it hasn't worked in the past, it's sure to work in the future.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Let's face it, people will vote with their wallets. If it fails it fails but if SWTOR is a great game it will succeed. Simple financial maths. I wish I could see how many people vote with their wallets 3 years into the future but time will tell.
Did your parents have kids that lived? Just kidding. I wish all the 20 somethings would pull their heads out of whatever hole in dark its in and realize MMOs didn't start with WoW. WoW is a clone pure and simple. The model of dumbing down games to get more casual players paying monthly subs was the only orignal idea they had... PERIOD!
If TOR fails, it will cause a shift in attitude, but not the shift you are wanting. Companies will not be willing to invest huge amounts of money in the hopes that they can make huge profits. Time will tell, but if TOR fails, you may not get sandbox style games either. God forbid we be left with SOE and Blizzard as the big developers. SOE can't be trusted for anything but screwing up what isn't broken while ignoring known bugs, and Blizzard could care less about anything but the almighty dollar and hackers continue to steal peeps info while turn a blind eye. No, I hope TOR succeeds for no other reason than to prove that good games can still be produced.
Theres reasons we don't see sandbox games, it has nothing to do with developers not creating AAA games. Its not like there aren't sandbox games out there either.
SWTOR is set for a particular demographic.... a demographic that has already been proven to be much larger than the entire sandbox fanbase. These are BioWare customers. BioWare games have sold multiple millions of their titles across all platforms. What they did is smart business sense.
Other developers have tried sandbox titles, but players never last. They blame this on these low budget, inexperienced developers, but the truth is, the market just really isn't there for random, unnamed sandbox titles. An elder scrolls title, or a fallout title that allows for sandbox gameplay would likely pull in the Bethesda crowd which could be huge, but apart from that, no company will be willing to put in any funds on anything if the market just isn't there.
BioWares success will only benefit the genre. How many developers have tried to take BioWares level of storytelling and gameplay? Nobody does it like BioWare, and theres no reason to believe they'd try to with the launch of SWTOR. What it will show them is that putting hard work and polish is what needs to happen if they want to stay in the competitive subscription market, and thats the most important thing.
....Being Banned from MMORPG's forums since 2010, for Trolling the Trolls!!!
I'm a sandbox fan, but please don't bundle me in with these "It has to be sandbox to be innovative" crowd. I want SW:TOR to be a HUGE success not only because I like Bioware or love the Star Wars IP, but because it will be very healthy for the MMO industry. For far too long the MMO industry has been like a funky chef throwing different colored and flavored balls of dung at a crowd, eventually one will find a flavor or color that's appealing but face it, they are all shit in the end.
Not all sandbox fans are closed minded and ignorant about buisiness models and the need for producers/production companies to attach funding. Some companies have gotten away with it, but anyone who understands how producers work in the games or movie industry would understand why.
If and when SW:TOR is a success that will make those Indy companies or start up gaming programers easier to both find jobs and pitch their ideas to larger production companies, those production companies will in turn become hard assed about who they let fund and they will be an inner industry crap-o-meter just like the movies. When they find that shining jewel in the rough they will know to fund the hell out of it, that's how movies in Hollywood work, well for the most part.
Face it, a Healthy SW:TOR release means a healthy MMO industry whether or not you understand why.
The only troll I see here is this post. Indeed, please do find where I have trolled or derailed a single thread in THIS forum. I'll save you time, you can't. You just took it upon yourself to ASSume because I share some opinions of those who have been attacking your precious baby all this time.
Well, again, sorry, I haven't been one of those. I've stayed away from this forum as much as possible. Indeed the only reason I replied here is because I've enjoyed Dark Pony's posts over the YEARS andI know that he wouldn't jump the shark on some jerkish reply like...oh...wait...
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Chavez y Chavez
God i wish people like you would stop posting.
You will always have your sandbox games, and people who enjoy sandbox games will always flock to them before going to games like SWTOR that have story and content that doesn't need to be made up by the players...What WoW has taught us is that the vast majority of players DON'T want a sandbox...if Eve were as popular as WoW then we'd be seeing the opposite...so basically what you're getting at is that you want everyone to create games that cater to the minority, rather than the majority...and I know what you're thinking, "well if they just played a good sandbox they'd see that it's superior!" WRONG!! How many people have played Eve and found it overly complex and intimidating? How many people quit SWG because there was just nothing to do?
note: for the record, I enjoy both equally as well. I played Eve for quite awhile as well as SWG...but I also played WoW and numerous others.
People like you are what's wrong with this genre because you think that the rise of one will mean the inherent fall of the other...and you have no regard for the supply and demand model of business. Don't you think that these companies would make sandbox games if there was better profit in it? Fact is, Eve is the WoW of sandbox games and I don't really see a sandbox game getting any more popular than Eve is already. You point to Planetside but that game's not really a sandbox, I don't know if you ever played the original but there was nothing in it except fighting...I'd hardly call a game where 100% of the content is killing each other in pvp to be sandbox.
You need to wake up and realize that, had Bioware made a sandbox like you and your ilk wanted, the game wouldn't have been as successful as the game that they made instead. SWG demonstrates this, Eve demonstrates this, Darkfall demonstrates this. And don't tell me "OH BUT SWG ONLY FAILED CAUSE SOE" NO...SWG failed because there was a lack of directed content from launch and SOE never truly did anything about it (an error that Eve has corrected, directed content eases players into the sandbox mentality). People can live with bugs, they CAN'T live with there benig nothing to do.
SWTOR will be a huge success so long as Bioware can deliver end game content and continue to deliver steady updates. If not, it'll be another Warhammer online, or DCU Online. I hope it doesn't turn out that way because I've played the game extensively and see a ton of potential...but hey, I'm a realist.
Your argument is like a two legged dog with an eating disorder...weak and unbalanced.
And a healthy GW2, and several other games a year away.
The only way to get a Major to take sandboxes seriously is by competition driving them to look in new directions in a rough (lots of big players) market.
And for that to happen, the Behemoth's stranglehold must be broken, even if only by another themepark(s).
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Well said, but in the end purists like that have always ruined everything for themselves anyway. That won't change, they set their expectations too high. While they lambast everything for not meeting them. Especially on the subject of sandboxes, that genre has always been about supporting a shell until it has become something more. Look at UO, look at EVE, SWG would have went that path as well with competent management.
Sandboxes have always been about growing pains and fan support, the problem is the fans expect wow like polish from a design that goes against the very nature of why WOW was able to be so polished, limited scope.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Good guess but no. TOR is not My Precious Baby.
There's only one fanboy in this conversation, and it's the sandbox lovers. Since they have no actual game to focus the fanboy on, they've chosen instead an idea, the reverent SANDBOX. But their zealotry is every bit as strong as the most strident WoW Kid.
If you want to see some thread derailment and trolling, just read back through the previous fifty threads in this forum. The same people, the same derail, it happens every...single...day.
See sig. Guess what inspired it?
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
“We're looking at pre-order campaigns and telemetry coming in from retail as well as online to get a sense of the overall base, and it's very strong. We're pretty relaxed about what we're going to be able to achieve there.”
snip
“What we told folks was that this is a product that it starts to make profitability about 500,000 subs. At about 1m subs, it's a business that makes good money on an ongoing basis but it doesn't feel great about the historical investment that sort of got us here,” he admitted.
“And anything north of 1m, as we approach 1.5m or 2m, starts to look like a great investment and justifies the entire purchase price of VGH stock filed in a very positive way.”
I see nothing about being worried. Just them stating what they consider profitable or a very good investment.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
As far as I know have only on sandbox AAA MMO been made so far, UO. UO did have an experienced team and it did really well for it's time. And the reason I don't mention Eve here is that it was released by a team that was unexperienced at the time and had a low budget.
The fact is that we have no real clue if a AAA sandbox game would work fine or not because so few have been made, and most AAA games actually flops even though they are themeparks.
I am not saying that Bioware should make a sandbox game, that would probably be a very bad idea, it is not what they are good at and devs that don't do what they are good at fails.
The market is not ready for random unnamed MMO titles at all. Look on the huge games, they were all made by experienced crews no matter what, MMOs are really hard to make.
Saying that sandboxes or themeparks are better than the other type is stupid, both have huge potential which almost all companies just mess up.
I personally believe that the next big sandbox game will be World of darkness online, it have an experienced team, a good budget and a popular IP that CCP owns.
But this whole thing have nothing to do with TOR. The Star wars IP works for both types of games and Bioware is making the right call to make the type of game they are famous for.
90% of all MMOs fail and the number gets even higher if you just count low budget games. Using that statistic to prove that the few sandbox games that have been made since 2004 failed does not prove anything at all.
Sure, Masked, for those who enjoy such games. For the ever growing segement that is getting tired of the "race to max level, end-game for 2 months, move on to next game" rat race the success of this game brings...nothing?
This genre is indeed big enough such that one company can put forth a AAA sandbox effort and it wouldn't kill all the themepark hounds out there. No, I'm not stating that this effort should have come with TOR. Far from it. That said, based on the past 7 years of data I don't see how TOR's success benefits anyone who wants a sandbox game. I'm much more of the view that it puts close to the final nail in the coffin.
(and before there are any snarky little quips back of "good" like it hurts me, sorry, you fail. I have tons of hobbies and indeed you [in the general sense or @ those who make such quip] fail as pushing more people out of the genre is not a good thing).
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Chavez y Chavez
We'll get to see if this game will flop or not in Sept (that when beta is?) and I reckon the usual will happen on these forums. You'll have lots of people getting banned saying the game sucks with a load of people blindlessly trying to defend the game by shooting down valid claims. Then once the game is releaed everyone will buy it so sales will be high but after that first sub date the population will drop off like crazy and everyone wonders why they wasted £130 on crap.
People will work out that the game is just like WoW and they're bored of that formula. On the Giantbomb Podcast Jeff said he got to play it and it plays exactly like WoW and he isn't interested in that any more. I reckon that is how most people will think and get fed up of the game pretty quickly. Not only that but they cannot live upto Blizzard's quality in things like feel of the combat. Bioware have never made a good combat system, they're always the weakest things about their games and so far SWTORs looks pretty bad. People will get fed up of linear mini game space battles and watching boring cutscenes all the time. I know when I group with friends everyone just wants to skip them as they become annoying.
I reckon when this game flops it'll be the single greatest thing for this genre. Developers will realise that we are sick of WoW and want something new and that is what we'll get.
How is it that this thread has degenerated into another "sandbox VS themepark" debate???
Then one is compelled to ask...why are you here?
The game holds no interest for you. Perhaps another forum would serve you better?
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Icewhite, I couldn't care less about your crusade against your perceived derailing and trolling by others. That has nothing to do with me or my comments earlier. I did not, and still do not, appreciate you accusing me of either when it's very clear that I wasn't. It was very much uncalled for.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Chavez y Chavez
I am very positive that the game will do extremely well not to mention suck the life out of WoW's western subscriber base. There are 8 basic classes with their own personal story with 200 hours of content per class, operations, flashpoints and pvp. The game is already selling like hotcakes and it is Star Wars. It can flop but highly doubt it. Lets not forget Bioware is making this game. I know I sound like a fanboy but so be it. See yas at launch!