True. And in my estimation WOW's longevity had in large part to do with (in no particular order):
1) it's established IP
2) The marketing campaign (visibility and creativity)
3) It's many ties into pop culture
For me a valid question is how many of the targetted TOR audience are "super SW fans" that would tolerate #'s 2 and 3. If it's not a big issue, then alls well. If it is, then Bioware has to bank on those items drawing in others who don't care about the SW skin but just want a story laden themepark game. To keep those folks, though, I'd think making the game link into pop culture would be a key point.
Hmm, I don't know, I find point 1 and 3 dubious.
Establised IP is really not saying something because in itself it's not enough although of course, it does help. You only have to look at the big IP's being used for MMO's with varying degrees of success.
Ties into pop culture, sorry, but this imo a minor point, unless you want to expand it to 'recognisability' and mainstream audience awareness.
WoW became widely known to people that had nothing to do with MMO's, it entered mainstream awareness of the masses, and there were a whole lot of people playing it. That in itself can become an appealing factor when friends or school mates are playing it, and it draws in people that usually pay no attention to MMO's at all.
My #3 does include being easily recognized by default. That's the "pop" part.
As far as #1 I put more weight in it than you I guess because I can easily see the daisy-chain effect. Most people that are hooked into a given "story" or world are more prone to give a new play on that world a try and enjoy it. Aezeroth was familiar to all those RTS (even if they knew nothing about the games lore) and so visually it was easy for them to feel comfortable in WoW.
As far as the big named IPs being used these days and their varying success I'd chalk that up to the companies either 1) not putting forth a highly polished product and/or 2) having a project lead that steps so far away from what the IP world is about it turns off those core IP hooked fans (think the Shadowrun FPS by Microsoft) who of course get vocal and as a result those MMO fans smell something fishy and stay away too.
And yes, WoW became widely known by people who didn't MMO because #2 made use of #3. Mr.T (A-Team and Rocky), Vern Troyer (Austin Powers), Ozzy Osbourne (Black Sabbath, Ozzy). Those ads grabbed people who knew those personalities (but maybe had no clue to what an MMO or WoW was) and got them to thinking if this person I idolized does this, then I should too. The daisy chain effect kicked off from there.
Can Bioware pull this off? Well, I can tell you that there are alot of SW fans out there not happy with Lucas Arts for SWG NGE AS WELL AS the first three prequels. Sure, they don't post here, but they are there. It'll take one heck of a marketing campaign to bring them in. Right now the only group I see Bioware having a firm grasp on is a section of MMO themepark fans (with a few exceptions sprinkled in). And again, even that group is wanting something new within the confines of the themepark model. Many are banking on the whole emphasis on story and the voice-overs. I just don't know if what Bioware has done will satiate that crowd. As of late no AAA themepark has.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Ah, so what you are saying is that you are just stating a factless opinion based on your observance of low sub numbers in buggy / unfinished / unpolished games?
Ok....gotcha.
I'm sure you woudn't be brazen enough to claim that if 80million+ were spent on developing a quality sandbox title, that the sub numbers might not show something else entirely.....IE, that there are PLENTY of sandbox fans out there who just don't have a game worth playing yet.
What I will say is that if the people who matter (investors) or the devs who pitch them thought there were enough sandboxers then they would have made the game (and I would probably enjoy it). But as I said sandbox games must not be all that popular or the crowd all that big.
I'm also basing my experience on the fact that I had a few friends who are avid gamers that I tried to get into both WOW and SWG and out of the six three stayed with WOW none wanted to play SWG beyond the first day.
These "people that matter" see that someone else is making money, and are simply following their formula as closely as possible to try and do the same.
They are not trying to innovate. They do not KNOW that there is a difference between a Themepark game and a Sandbox game. They see it as an investment in the gaming industry....that is all.
SWG....as much as I personally enjoyed it, is not really the ideal example....the game wasn't finished, and was never really fixed. It never had a chance to become what it might have been.
And the same can be said of the "sandbox" titles churned out by indie developers over the last couple of years.
Trying to claim that there isn't a market for a product that has never been made is kind of silly, man. ESPECIALLY when there are so many people on gaming sites and forums such as these clamoring for that very product.
And those people usually represent many others in their gaming circles who want the same thing but have not the time nor the inclination to jump on forums and argue with or be berated by those who can't stand to see a AAA sandbox be created.
UO, even if the intent to be AAA wasn't there initially, it bcame AAA sandbox. Eve did as well. Both games started off on a better footing than the recent MMO sandbox attempts. For anyone to say there isn't a market there that would be profitable would just be them being antagonistic. The market is there. Sure, there are more folks who like the directed play of themeparks and thus that's the type of game investors want pitched to them as they "know about Blizzard". Tying into my earlier comments, I don't see how success of TOR does anything for sandboxers as investors are then going to want to hear about how the game being pitched them is "like Bioware's game".
And sheesh, if only one game came along now that declared they were doing sandbox, and if you didn't like it go away (haha) and they were going to spend $80 million on it...I'd commit to 2 subcriptions right now and would happily pay $30 a sub each.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
In that article taken from an interview you can more or less see that EA is easily worried there game isnt going to profit. Its EA, I can see this turning into a huge money franchise with multiple expansions and other things... to suck dry the star wars fans wallets.
Discuss...
Thast's a pretty cynical view. With every major game release there is a certian element of risk, and SWTOR, as one of the most expensive MMOs ever made, had a lot of risk.
Despite the amazing pre-order numbers I'm still surprised that there are people out there who still think this game is going to flop.
My #3 does include being easily recognized by default. That's the "pop" part.
Ah, I thought you were referring to the use of pop cultural references ingame.
As far as #1 I put more weight in it than you I guess because I can easily see the daisy-chain effect. Most people that are hooked into a given "story" or world are more prone to give a new play on that world a try and enjoy it. Aezeroth was familiar to all those RTS (even if they knew nothing about the games lore) and so visually it was easy for them to feel comfortable in WoW.
As far as the big named IPs being used these days and their varying success I'd chalk that up to the companies either 1) not putting forth a highly polished product and/or 2) having a project lead that steps so far away from what the IP world is about it turns off those core IP hooked fans (think the Shadowrun FPS by Microsoft) who of course get vocal and as a result those MMO fans smell something fishy and stay away too.
And yes, WoW became widely known by people who didn't MMO because #2 made use of #3. Mr.T (A-Team and Rocky), Vern Troyer (Austin Powers), Ozzy Osbourne (Black Sabbath, Ozzy). Those ads grabbed people who knew those personalities (but maybe had no clue to what an MMO or WoW was) and got them to thinking if this person I idolized does this, then I should too. The daisy chain effect kicked off from there.
Iirc those particular adverts weren't being done in the beginning but came later, WoW's initial success was purely because it offered appealing and accessible MMO gameplay compared to what was out there. I think after it built sufficient mass, things start to move on its own with synergistic effects, like popularity and mainstream awareness builds and encourages its own increasing success.
Can Bioware pull this off? Well, I can tell you that there are alot of SW fans out there not happy with Lucas Arts for SWG NGE AS WELL AS the first three prequels. Sure, they don't post here, but they are there. It'll take one heck of a marketing campaign to bring them in. Right now the only group I see Bioware having a firm grasp on is a section of MMO themepark fans (with a few exceptions sprinkled in). And again, even that group is wanting something new within the confines of the themepark model. Many are banking on the whole emphasis on story and the voice-overs. I just don't know if what Bioware has done will satiate that crowd. As of late no AAA themepark has.
Sorry, but the SWG NGE crowd is TOTALLY not the target audience, so I don't see why LA or BW should even try to convince them instead of focusing their attention more effectively on other audiences who could actually enjoy a themepark MMO. As for that no AAA themepark can appeal, it depends how you regard it, stil more than 10 times the number of MMO gamers are playing themepark based MMO's than non-themepark MMO's and this has been the case for years now. These are also numbers that are several times higher than anything before 2005 when there was far less competition. Shouldn't that be telling something as well?
People have been crying out how WoW is failing for years and how themepark MMO's are a failed experiment for years, yet the number of MMO gamers that have been playing that kind of MMO's has been consistently high.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
It's important that this MMO fails for the genre, otherwise we will see many more years of SWTOR clones which means many more years of WoW clones with cutscenes and probably made more linear.
If SWTOR fails then we'll see a complete attitude change towards the genre and they'll have to do something new and innovative to kick start it again.
Funny enough I find myself hoping on SOE because their next two games are going to be sandboxes.... I never thought I would but there really is nothing to look forward to other than Planetside, EQ3 and whatever Bethesda does.
Are you serious? Why do you HATE MMOs?
If TOR fails, I assure you that we've seen the end of the big budget "bklockbuster" MMO, and you can enjoy all the sub-par supposed "AAA" and Asian free-to-play grindfests.
If a sure thing like TOR, wich it's Bioware, KOTOR, Star Wars affiliations, fails then no studio in their right mind is EVER going to spend big bucks to make an MMO ever again.
What game are currently on the market that you probably despise? WoW clones. Do you want to see WoW clones in the MMO genre for the rest of time? Then you better hope TOR fails.
The way I see it is that TOR-clones are a huge step up from WoW-clones, and people hoping TOR will fail are selfish, selfish, selfish because they probably want SWG2 or for sandboxes to become big (which is never going to happen.)
My #3 does include being easily recognized by default. That's the "pop" part.
Ah, I thought you were referring to the use of pop cultural references ingame.
As far as #1 I put more weight in it than you I guess because I can easily see the daisy-chain effect. Most people that are hooked into a given "story" or world are more prone to give a new play on that world a try and enjoy it. Aezeroth was familiar to all those RTS (even if they knew nothing about the games lore) and so visually it was easy for them to feel comfortable in WoW.
As far as the big named IPs being used these days and their varying success I'd chalk that up to the companies either 1) not putting forth a highly polished product and/or 2) having a project lead that steps so far away from what the IP world is about it turns off those core IP hooked fans (think the Shadowrun FPS by Microsoft) who of course get vocal and as a result those MMO fans smell something fishy and stay away too.
And yes, WoW became widely known by people who didn't MMO because #2 made use of #3. Mr.T (A-Team and Rocky), Vern Troyer (Austin Powers), Ozzy Osbourne (Black Sabbath, Ozzy). Those ads grabbed people who knew those personalities (but maybe had no clue to what an MMO or WoW was) and got them to thinking if this person I idolized does this, then I should too. The daisy chain effect kicked off from there.
Iirc those particular adverts weren't being done in the beginning but came later, WoW's initial success was purely because it offered appealing and accessible MMO gameplay compared to what was out there. I think after it built sufficient mass, things start to move on its own with synergistic effects, like popularity and mainstream awareness builds and encourages its own increasing success.
Can Bioware pull this off? Well, I can tell you that there are alot of SW fans out there not happy with Lucas Arts for SWG NGE AS WELL AS the first three prequels. Sure, they don't post here, but they are there. It'll take one heck of a marketing campaign to bring them in. Right now the only group I see Bioware having a firm grasp on is a section of MMO themepark fans (with a few exceptions sprinkled in). And again, even that group is wanting something new within the confines of the themepark model. Many are banking on the whole emphasis on story and the voice-overs. I just don't know if what Bioware has done will satiate that crowd. As of late no AAA themepark has.
Sorry, but the SWG NGE crowd is TOTALLY not the target audience, so I don't see why LA or BW should even try to convince them instead of focusing their attention more effectively on other audiences who could actually enjoy a themepark MMO. As for that no AAA themepark can appeal, it depends how you regard it, stil more than 10 times the number of MMO gamers are playing themepark based MMO's than non-themepark MMO's and this has been the case for years now. These are also numbers that are several times higher than anything before 2005 when there was far less competition. Shouldn't that be telling something as well?
That group (which does include me) was, however, a very targettable group, and not necessarily by gearing the whole game sandbox, just doing alot more than they have/plan. The more important part of that sentence is the part about Star Wars fans (not MMO or SWG fans) that may have tried a SW MMO out but won't due to their dislike of the 3 newer prequels. They are indeed a target audience. Oh, and I agree based on Bioware's stated plans for TOR, there is no reason they should attempt to court players like me (and those more rabid than I) that did not like the NGE.
I'd say that 10 times the number are playing themepark because there are 20+ times the number of themepark games. It would be awesomely interesting to review those numbers if there were more AAA polished sandbox games out to give people a choice and get a more accurate survey sample. Sure, I know the themeparks would probably still lead (not because they are better, more indicative of the level of effort and amount of guidance the average human being needs these days) but I don't think it'd be 10:1. I would estimate more 4 or 5:1.
People have been crying out how WoW is failing for years and how themepark MMO's are a failed experiment for years, yet the number of MMO gamers that have been playing that kind of MMO's has been consistently high.
I don't think WoW is "failing". At least by my definition of the word "fail". I think it's getting older and with some changes Blizzard is making it's losing older long time playing customers. Some folks are leaving too simply because they want to try something else. There are also those that really aren't MMO fans that played only because of friends and either they "got over it" or left because their friends left.
And I'd say WoW's numbers stayed high over the years due in significant part to the rest of the developers in the genre trying to "out WoW WoW" and failing to deliver that level of polish/finish. So, naturally, why would people stay with a pretender when they can have the original?
TOR is themepark (surprise, right? ) but doesn't look to try to emulate WoW. How well Bioware makes TOR "themepark but different from WoW" I think has large influence on the keeping a high number of subs on a sustained basis. Maybe "story" is it but for some reason I see people just clicking through to the dialogue choice (and picking one that "sounds cool") and trying to get to the combat part. Which is why I don't see 1million+ consecutive long term (more than 12 months straight) retention.
Will be interesting to see which side of the theory coin lands face up, for sure.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Aside from UO? The point is, there have been sandbox AAA titles and they didn't do well, there are plenty of sandbox fantasy titles out right now that aren't doing well... We could say, "Name one themepark fantasy game where you cook instead of killing" or "Name a triple A themepark racing MMORPG" .
I asked if you could name one AAA fantasy sandbox MMORPG besides UO...you couldn't do it because there isn't one.
Your other arguments are irrelevant. We're not talking about the audience for cooking themeparks or racing themeparks. We're talking about a potential audience for a AAA fantasy sandbox MMORPG, or at least one with a lot of sandbox elements like Archeage will be.
You can't look at underfunded, indie, problem-ridden games like Darkfall or Mortal Online and say that their success of failure determines the potential audience for any fantasy sandbox. A game can be bad or inaccessible regardless of what genre it's in. Until we have a AAA fantasy sandbox that is marketed and implemented very well, we'll never know how many people would actually be attracted to that experience.
We'll get to see if this game will flop or not in Sept (that when beta is?) and I reckon the usual will happen on these forums. You'll have lots of people getting banned saying the game sucks with a load of people blindlessly trying to defend the game by shooting down valid claims. Then once the game is releaed everyone will buy it so sales will be high but after that first sub date the population will drop off like crazy and everyone wonders why they wasted £130 on crap.
People will work out that the game is just like WoW and they're bored of that formula. On the Giantbomb Podcast Jeff said he got to play it and it plays exactly like WoW and he isn't interested in that any more. I reckon that is how most people will think and get fed up of the game pretty quickly. Not only that but they cannot live upto Blizzard's quality in things like feel of the combat. Bioware have never made a good combat system, they're always the weakest things about their games and so far SWTORs looks pretty bad. People will get fed up of linear mini game space battles and watching boring cutscenes all the time. I know when I group with friends everyone just wants to skip them as they become annoying.
I reckon when this game flops it'll be the single greatest thing for this genre. Developers will realise that we are sick of WoW and want something new and that is what we'll get.
Biased much?
If you honestly believe that a big budget game flopping means that "developers will realize that we are sick of WoW" then you need to re-examine what you think. What it does mean is that developers are going to be making games that aren't MMORPGs because no one will ever want to uinvest in syuch a game ever again. "Oh, MMOs? Aren't those the games that no one buys and plays?" Yeah, that's what we need.
I just don't see that happening myself. I can see it maintaining anywhere from 750K right up to the 1mil mark but I just don't see it on a long term consecutive basis holding a number over 1mil. If it turns out it does, good for it. I just believe that outside of story it's the same themepark MMO experience that players have been getting all along and of late rarely do those games hold high sub numbers. Rift has been the best example of late and I'd doubt it is over 1 mil (or there would have been announcements galore).
Well, it's only possible if they can pull the same trick that Blizzard could with WoW.
Because let's look at it, the same arguments that people use against longevity when it comes to themepark MMO's also apply to WoW, yet it managed to keep people playing it for years and even growing over the years. According to those arguments people are using against themepark MMO's this shouldn't have been possible since as good as everything you could do in a themepark MMO you'd already have done within half a year.
So, there must be other factors in play that determine whether people keep playing themepark MMO's like WoW past the 0.5-1 year mark, personally I think that community and family&friends play a large role, but there could be other reasons as well. If BW can connect to those same motives, then they might achieve a sortlike consistent success as WoW did. It'll be interesting to see how things will turn out.
True. And in my estimation WOW's longevity had in large part to do with (in no particular order):
1) it's established IP
2) The marketing campaign (visibility and creativity)
3) It's many ties into pop culture
For me a valid question is how many of the targetted TOR audience are "super SW fans" that would tolerate #'s 2 and 3. If it's not a big issue, then alls well. If it is, then Bioware has to bank on those items drawing in others who don't care about the SW skin but just want a story laden themepark game. To keep those folks, though, I'd think making the game link into pop culture would be a key point.
This makes no sense, you claim these are the factors that made WoW big, and in the next breath say TOR will flop?
1) And established IP: Yes, with KOTOR as well as Star Wars, so you essentially have TWO established IPs on this one.
2) Right now TOR has mega amounts of hype. We will have to see how EA markets it.
3) Uhhhhh.... Warcraft has MORE ties to pop culture than Star Wars does? Maybe in bizarro world.
Let's face it, you are utterly incapable of being objective here. You HATE themepark MMOs and you are bent on bashing TOR because it is one.
TOR isn't a sandbox MMO, it obviously wasn't made for sandbox purists who loathe themepark games. It is incredibly foolish to foist your personal tastes on the game buying public and claim that TOR will bomb just because it is a themepark.
Seriously, can we have some reality now? I'm getting tired of bitter sandbox purists acting snobby and self-righteous whenever a game isn't designed specifically for them.
I asked if you could name one AAA fantasy sandbox MMORPG besides UO...you couldn't do it because there isn't one.
Your other arguments are irrelevant. We're not talking about the audience for cooking themeparks or racing themeparks. We're talking about a potential audience for a AAA fantasy sandbox MMORPG, or at least one with a lot of sandbox elements like Archeage will be.
You can't look at underfunded, indie, problem-ridden games like Darkfall or Mortal Online and say that their success of failure determines the potential audience for any fantasy sandbox. A game can be bad or inaccessible regardless of what genre it's in. Until we have a AAA fantasy sandbox that is marketed and implemented very well, we'll never know how many people would actually be attracted to that experience.
Asherons call?
Why do you think this is the case though? I'm a sandbox fan through and through, Sandbox MMO's are the only MMO's I've played for longer than a few months. After playing them though I see why very few studios focus their efforts on them. While the idea of them is great, the design has far too many allowances for abuse. The dev. cycle becomes a game of cat and mouse, where they're constantly back tracking because of how emergent game-play works.
Players and their ingenuity is something many sandbox lovers overlook. What's worse is all they can say is bad design, bad design, bad design, it's not a mistake of bad design, it's a mistake of trusting the player. If you can't trust one you can't trust any, that's the way things like this work.
In themepark design things are all working in a controlled manner, outside of PVP. Yet even PVP has been put in it's cage in most themeparks today. Purists hate that, I hate that. The problem is the masses do not. Their time spent in the game is in a protective state just as they like it. It lends more integrity to them in their enjoyment while playing. AAA will always be shooting for the large audience, the mass audience wants polish, safety, balance and at least an illusion of fairness. These things are easier to achieve in Themepark or controlled environments, that don't allow for emergent game-play or playstyles.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Then once the game is releaed everyone will buy it so sales will be high but after that first sub date the population will drop off like crazy and everyone wonders why they wasted £130 on crap.
---
Too true, and the bigger they are the harder the fall.
This game is going to set new records alright, most preorders/orders and without a doubt the most sub cancellations of all time. I'm a huge kotor fan and the more i look into this game my initial excitement about it is pretty much gone, i was going to check this out in March when the first huge price cuts hit, but I'm not sure I'll even waste my time on this game in any trial for F2P scenario.
I like MMO's as much as i like single rpg games. What i found out after playing AoC is oil and water don't mix. The first 18 levels blew me away, at that point i struggled through 2 more levels just to get to the mmo part, played to 80 and could not bring myself to slug through the first 20 levels again just to get to the mmo part.
Think about this, ToR's doesn't have the mo part, its entire game is level 1 to 20 of AoC with out any satisfaction of a finish of a single player game and without ever getting to the mmo part of the game.
It's the equivalent of playing kotor 1 but the ending isn't there, oh well here go play kotor 2 without an ending too, keep paying a monthly sub and you can play kotor 3, then 4, but of course no ending satisfaction.
Then once the game is releaed everyone will buy it so sales will be high but after that first sub date the population will drop off like crazy and everyone wonders why they wasted £130 on crap.
---
Too true, and the bigger they are the harder the fall.
This game is going to set new records alright, most preorders/orders and without a doubt the most sub cancellations of all time. I'm a huge kotor fan and the more i look into this game my initial excitement about it is pretty much gone, i was going to check this out in March when the first huge price cuts hit, but I'm not sure I'll even waste my time on this game in any trial for F2P scenario.
I like MMO's as much as i like single rpg games. What i found out after playing AoC is oil and water don't mix. The first 18 levels blew me away, at that point i struggled through 2 more levels just to get to the mmo part, played to 80 and could not bring myself to slug through the first 20 levels again just to get to the mmo part.
Think about this, ToR's doesn't have the mo part, its entire game is level 1 to 20 of AoC with out any satisfaction of a finish of a single player game and without ever getting to the mmo part of the game.
It's the equivalent of playing kotor 1 but the ending isn't there, oh well here go play kotor 2 without an ending too, keep paying a monthly sub and you can play kotor 3, then 4, but of course no ending satisfaction.
This game is going to get stale real fast.
+1
I posted a few similar posts. But most fans are ignorantly blind it seems. The more ignorant you are, the heavier the dissapointment will hit you. This is a singleplayer game wrapped in MMO clothing. It would do far better being a singleplayer game, packed in singleplayer clothing.
If you don't want to play then don't play. Quit being so desperate to convince other people to share your feelings. Its ok to be in the minority, you don't need us to validate your feelings.
I posted a few similar posts. But most fans are ignorantly blind it seems. The more ignorant you are, the heavier the dissapointment will hit you. This is a singleplayer game wrapped in MMO clothing. It would do far better being a singleplayer game, packed in singleplayer clothing.
No one really gives a damn it would seem, I sure as hell don't. If that's what it is, that's what it is. That doesn't mean it can't be fun....
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
If you don't want to play then don't play. Quit being so desperate to convince other people to share your feelings. Its ok to be in the minority, you don't need us to validate your feelings.
No I don't, but neither do I need your attempt to say I am wrong.
Critics are a two way thing. If you don't like to read my words, press the X in top right corner of window.
I am a member of this site too, and as long as I am that, I will post whatever I please within the rules. Your argument empty attempt of stopping me, is only fuel for my engine.
I posted a few similar posts. But most fans are ignorantly blind it seems. The more ignorant you are, the heavier the dissapointment will hit you. This is a singleplayer game wrapped in MMO clothing. It would do far better being a singleplayer game, packed in singleplayer clothing.
No one really gives a damn it would seem, I sure as hell don't. If that's what it is, that's what it is. That doesn't mean it can't be fun....
You just comfirmed my idea
Please read the entire post before clicking reply.
I read both posts, what's your point? That reply was at both, as it's just as obvious to everyone else this game is being sold on telling a story. Without really saying what to look forward to outside of vague statements. If it's a case that there's nothing to stay for, I'm out 60 bucks and probably would have enjoyed the story elements (I like single player rpgs). No one is or can force me to stay and pay more. Making what you just said completely moot.
BtW if I was a blind fanboi, don't you think I'd have pre-ordered the game, or made statements against it being a game to only play for the story elements?
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
You just comfirmed my idea about blindly ignorant fans
Please read the entire post before clicking reply.
Please read up on the game before clicking post then? if you want people to extend you the same courtesy.
I did, and got info from people who have been playing beta as well. I stand 100% behind my words !
A huge record-breaking amount of pre-orders, is not the same as a huge stable player base, paying subscription fee month after month. But I guess you were too busy trying to troll off critics to read and understand that part.
Sorry, but the SWG NGE crowd is TOTALLY not the target audience, so I don't see why LA or BW should even try to convince them instead of focusing their attention more effectively on other audiences who could actually enjoy a themepark MMO. As for that no AAA themepark can appeal, it depends how you regard it, stil more than 10 times the number of MMO gamers are playing themepark based MMO's than non-themepark MMO's and this has been the case for years now. These are also numbers that are several times higher than anything before 2005 when there was far less competition. Shouldn't that be telling something as well?
People have been crying out how WoW is failing for years and how themepark MMO's are a failed experiment for years, yet the number of MMO gamers that have been playing that kind of MMO's has been consistently high.
I dissagree MMO.Maverick, The NGE crowd is the exact target for TOR. It is the Pre-NGE crowd that played SWG that Bioware is not trying to make a game for.
Post NGE it was a linear themepark, limited class bassed with specials given every few levels style MMO. Lucas Arts seems to have not been able to shake the stigma of NGE in SWG, thus a new game, with a fresh start, and which is basically NGE 2.0
And yes I will agree that 10 times the number play Linear based themeparks, as many game developers are chasing the golden carrot of the large WOW customer base. Leaving Sandbox style games to whither if you will, as either low budgets, or hardcore full loot style pvp twitch based games.
The problem now is MMO's take 5 years plus to put out with polish, unless your Cryptic with the less than 2 years.. oh wait they failed, and have been sold. Thus the games comming out recently were developrd during WOW's large sucess, and only now are Game developers realising if we want WOW, we will simply play WOW. Games getting developed now with this mindset will not arrive for another 4-6 years, and by then the WOW model will be largely loathed by gamers.
SWTOR. Face it, in the Scooby Doo Mystery Solving Van of coolness, this game is Velma. In this current MMO climate it has about as much chance for survival as a group of inquisitive teenagers in a 1980s slasher flick. -Tardcore May, 2011
If you don't want to play then don't play. Quit being so desperate to convince other people to share your feelings. Its ok to be in the minority, you don't need us to validate your feelings.
No I don't, but neither do I need your attempt to say I am wrong.
Critics are a two way thing. If you don't like to read my words, press the X in top right corner of window.
I am a member of this site too, and as long as I am that, I will post whatever I please within the rules. Your argument empty attempt of stopping me, is only fuel for my engine.
You know you're right you have every right to post here in the swtor fourm but its sad that you feel the need to come here and let every1 know how much the game is going to fail. But have fun.
The following statement is false The previous statement is true
You just comfirmed my idea about blindly ignorant fans
Please read the entire post before clicking reply.
Please read up on the game before clicking post then? if you want people to extend you the same courtesy.
I did, and got info from people who have been playing beta as well. I stand 100% behind my words !
A huge record-breaking amount of pre-orders, is not the same as a huge stable player base, paying subscription fee month after month. But I guess you were too busy trying to troll off critics to read and understand that part.
I highlighted the part that I am focusing on, and I agree 100%. SWTOR can have all of the pre-orders they want, and they will no doubt sell a ton of boxes the first few months after release, but this does not guarantee any amount of quality of the game. It also does not guarantee that the game will ultimately succeeed. For examples look at AoC and WAR, both of which had a large number of pre-orders and a very healthy amount of box sales, but both games also had numerous issues and were no where near ready for release. Whether SWTOR will be a success or a flop will be decided after the first year or so when we can see what the populations are at and whether they are growing, falling or remaining stable.
STO sold many pre-orders as well, how big of a hit is that game?
SWTOR. Face it, in the Scooby Doo Mystery Solving Van of coolness, this game is Velma. In this current MMO climate it has about as much chance for survival as a group of inquisitive teenagers in a 1980s slasher flick. -Tardcore May, 2011
STO sold many pre-orders as well, how big of a hit is that game?
Horrible comparison, STO had what two years of development time? As well as featured nothing but cut and paste game-play from start to finish, just like most cryptic products.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I can't speak for MaraGossep but I'm not here trying to dissuade anyone as much as i am trying to share years of experience in this area of ultra hype to ultra let down.
You go into this game this hyped and fanboi'd is pure set up for a huge let down.
At first you'll think OMG they have no clue what we're talking about, this game is the most awesome game evar. Then after a little while the novelty will start to wear off, but it's still an OK game, then you'll start force yourself to make it work because you invested so much MONEY and energy fanboi'ing it to death, and hey we couldn't be right could we, you have to right, RIGHT?
More time will pass then eventually you'll just say screw it i need a break and that will be it, it's over and you most likely will never return because you forced yourself, and in this process you have an internal hate for it, but still wont admit it, all because you couldn't take heed the advice and cautionary wisdom of others.
I know I've been there done that too, live and learn as they say. Have fun.
You do realize I was saying you may be right, and it seems people do not care if you are or you aren't. I was saying I don't care if you are right, if you read my response to Mara, you'd see I pretty much expect the game to be only offering a good story. Little secret, I'm not really into themepark games. Yeah but I must be the blindest fanboi out there. Make an example of me, please.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Well if the game is actually good they should have no problem with making profit.
Obviously if a game is good people will play it but if majority of the people who played TOR responds positiviely to the game then TOR will definitely have a future.
Sorry, but the SWG NGE crowd is TOTALLY not the target audience, so I don't see why LA or BW should even try to convince them instead of focusing their attention more effectively on other audiences who could actually enjoy a themepark MMO. As for that no AAA themepark can appeal, it depends how you regard it, stil more than 10 times the number of MMO gamers are playing themepark based MMO's than non-themepark MMO's and this has been the case for years now. These are also numbers that are several times higher than anything before 2005 when there was far less competition. Shouldn't that be telling something as well?
People have been crying out how WoW is failing for years and how themepark MMO's are a failed experiment for years, yet the number of MMO gamers that have been playing that kind of MMO's has been consistently high.
I dissagree MMO.Maverick, The NGE crowd is the exact target for TOR. It is the Pre-NGE crowd that played SWG that Bioware is not trying to make a game for.
Post NGE it was a linear themepark, limited class bassed with specials given every few levels style MMO. Lucas Arts seems to have not been able to shake the stigma of NGE in SWG, thus a new game, with a fresh start, and which is basically NGE 2.0
And yes I will agree that 10 times the number play Linear based themeparks, as many game developers are chasing the golden carrot of the large WOW customer base. Leaving Sandbox style games to whither if you will, as either low budgets, or hardcore full loot style pvp twitch based games.
The problem now is MMO's take 5 years plus to put out with polish, unless your Cryptic with the less than 2 years.. oh wait they failed, and have been sold. Thus the games comming out recently were developrd during WOW's large sucess, and only now are Game developers realising if we want WOW, we will simply play WOW. Games getting developed now with this mindset will not arrive for another 4-6 years, and by then the WOW model will be largely loathed by gamers.
This is what I don't understand about people that call some MMOs themeparks in a riducule kind of way. Most RPGs, old school and new, would be considered themeparks. Planescape Torment, Baldur's Gate, Zork, Betrayal at Krondor, Mass Effect, Xenogears, Final Fantasy.
Every sandbox MMO I've played failed to have a cohesive engaging story. There were a few people who roleplayed their character, but for the most part is just a mess of people playing themselves and having fun competing (ganking, economic warfare, guild size bragging rights) against other players. But there was very little RPG in the game at all. That's what sandbox players seem to want though.
I don't think of paint ball, laser tag, or tennis as RPGs. The same for EVE Online, Darkfall, and sometimes WoW. They are MMOs, but they seem to be faking the funk when it comes to the RPG department. It's like the marriage between MMO and RPG is over and they're just going through the motions to keep up appearances.
If you aren't interested in developing a character through a pre-existing branching story and plot, doesn't that mean you probably don't like RPGs? And so maybe MMORPGs aren't your thing?
Comments
My #3 does include being easily recognized by default. That's the "pop" part.
As far as #1 I put more weight in it than you I guess because I can easily see the daisy-chain effect. Most people that are hooked into a given "story" or world are more prone to give a new play on that world a try and enjoy it. Aezeroth was familiar to all those RTS (even if they knew nothing about the games lore) and so visually it was easy for them to feel comfortable in WoW.
As far as the big named IPs being used these days and their varying success I'd chalk that up to the companies either 1) not putting forth a highly polished product and/or 2) having a project lead that steps so far away from what the IP world is about it turns off those core IP hooked fans (think the Shadowrun FPS by Microsoft) who of course get vocal and as a result those MMO fans smell something fishy and stay away too.
And yes, WoW became widely known by people who didn't MMO because #2 made use of #3. Mr.T (A-Team and Rocky), Vern Troyer (Austin Powers), Ozzy Osbourne (Black Sabbath, Ozzy). Those ads grabbed people who knew those personalities (but maybe had no clue to what an MMO or WoW was) and got them to thinking if this person I idolized does this, then I should too. The daisy chain effect kicked off from there.
Can Bioware pull this off? Well, I can tell you that there are alot of SW fans out there not happy with Lucas Arts for SWG NGE AS WELL AS the first three prequels. Sure, they don't post here, but they are there. It'll take one heck of a marketing campaign to bring them in. Right now the only group I see Bioware having a firm grasp on is a section of MMO themepark fans (with a few exceptions sprinkled in). And again, even that group is wanting something new within the confines of the themepark model. Many are banking on the whole emphasis on story and the voice-overs. I just don't know if what Bioware has done will satiate that crowd. As of late no AAA themepark has.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Chavez y Chavez
And those people usually represent many others in their gaming circles who want the same thing but have not the time nor the inclination to jump on forums and argue with or be berated by those who can't stand to see a AAA sandbox be created.
UO, even if the intent to be AAA wasn't there initially, it bcame AAA sandbox. Eve did as well. Both games started off on a better footing than the recent MMO sandbox attempts. For anyone to say there isn't a market there that would be profitable would just be them being antagonistic. The market is there. Sure, there are more folks who like the directed play of themeparks and thus that's the type of game investors want pitched to them as they "know about Blizzard". Tying into my earlier comments, I don't see how success of TOR does anything for sandboxers as investors are then going to want to hear about how the game being pitched them is "like Bioware's game".
And sheesh, if only one game came along now that declared they were doing sandbox, and if you didn't like it go away (haha) and they were going to spend $80 million on it...I'd commit to 2 subcriptions right now and would happily pay $30 a sub each.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Chavez y Chavez
Thast's a pretty cynical view. With every major game release there is a certian element of risk, and SWTOR, as one of the most expensive MMOs ever made, had a lot of risk.
Despite the amazing pre-order numbers I'm still surprised that there are people out there who still think this game is going to flop.
Sorry, but the SWG NGE crowd is TOTALLY not the target audience, so I don't see why LA or BW should even try to convince them instead of focusing their attention more effectively on other audiences who could actually enjoy a themepark MMO. As for that no AAA themepark can appeal, it depends how you regard it, stil more than 10 times the number of MMO gamers are playing themepark based MMO's than non-themepark MMO's and this has been the case for years now. These are also numbers that are several times higher than anything before 2005 when there was far less competition. Shouldn't that be telling something as well?
People have been crying out how WoW is failing for years and how themepark MMO's are a failed experiment for years, yet the number of MMO gamers that have been playing that kind of MMO's has been consistently high.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Are you serious? Why do you HATE MMOs?
If TOR fails, I assure you that we've seen the end of the big budget "bklockbuster" MMO, and you can enjoy all the sub-par supposed "AAA" and Asian free-to-play grindfests.
If a sure thing like TOR, wich it's Bioware, KOTOR, Star Wars affiliations, fails then no studio in their right mind is EVER going to spend big bucks to make an MMO ever again.
What game are currently on the market that you probably despise? WoW clones. Do you want to see WoW clones in the MMO genre for the rest of time? Then you better hope TOR fails.
The way I see it is that TOR-clones are a huge step up from WoW-clones, and people hoping TOR will fail are selfish, selfish, selfish because they probably want SWG2 or for sandboxes to become big (which is never going to happen.)
I don't think WoW is "failing". At least by my definition of the word "fail". I think it's getting older and with some changes Blizzard is making it's losing older long time playing customers. Some folks are leaving too simply because they want to try something else. There are also those that really aren't MMO fans that played only because of friends and either they "got over it" or left because their friends left.
And I'd say WoW's numbers stayed high over the years due in significant part to the rest of the developers in the genre trying to "out WoW WoW" and failing to deliver that level of polish/finish. So, naturally, why would people stay with a pretender when they can have the original?
TOR is themepark (surprise, right?
) but doesn't look to try to emulate WoW. How well Bioware makes TOR "themepark but different from WoW" I think has large influence on the keeping a high number of subs on a sustained basis. Maybe "story" is it but for some reason I see people just clicking through to the dialogue choice (and picking one that "sounds cool") and trying to get to the combat part. Which is why I don't see 1million+ consecutive long term (more than 12 months straight) retention.
Will be interesting to see which side of the theory coin lands face up, for sure.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Chavez y Chavez
I asked if you could name one AAA fantasy sandbox MMORPG besides UO...you couldn't do it because there isn't one.
Your other arguments are irrelevant. We're not talking about the audience for cooking themeparks or racing themeparks. We're talking about a potential audience for a AAA fantasy sandbox MMORPG, or at least one with a lot of sandbox elements like Archeage will be.
You can't look at underfunded, indie, problem-ridden games like Darkfall or Mortal Online and say that their success of failure determines the potential audience for any fantasy sandbox. A game can be bad or inaccessible regardless of what genre it's in. Until we have a AAA fantasy sandbox that is marketed and implemented very well, we'll never know how many people would actually be attracted to that experience.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
Biased much?
If you honestly believe that a big budget game flopping means that "developers will realize that we are sick of WoW" then you need to re-examine what you think. What it does mean is that developers are going to be making games that aren't MMORPGs because no one will ever want to uinvest in syuch a game ever again. "Oh, MMOs? Aren't those the games that no one buys and plays?" Yeah, that's what we need.
This makes no sense, you claim these are the factors that made WoW big, and in the next breath say TOR will flop?
1) And established IP: Yes, with KOTOR as well as Star Wars, so you essentially have TWO established IPs on this one.
2) Right now TOR has mega amounts of hype. We will have to see how EA markets it.
3) Uhhhhh.... Warcraft has MORE ties to pop culture than Star Wars does? Maybe in bizarro world.
Let's face it, you are utterly incapable of being objective here. You HATE themepark MMOs and you are bent on bashing TOR because it is one.
TOR isn't a sandbox MMO, it obviously wasn't made for sandbox purists who loathe themepark games. It is incredibly foolish to foist your personal tastes on the game buying public and claim that TOR will bomb just because it is a themepark.
Seriously, can we have some reality now? I'm getting tired of bitter sandbox purists acting snobby and self-righteous whenever a game isn't designed specifically for them.
Asherons call?
Why do you think this is the case though? I'm a sandbox fan through and through, Sandbox MMO's are the only MMO's I've played for longer than a few months. After playing them though I see why very few studios focus their efforts on them. While the idea of them is great, the design has far too many allowances for abuse. The dev. cycle becomes a game of cat and mouse, where they're constantly back tracking because of how emergent game-play works.
Players and their ingenuity is something many sandbox lovers overlook. What's worse is all they can say is bad design, bad design, bad design, it's not a mistake of bad design, it's a mistake of trusting the player. If you can't trust one you can't trust any, that's the way things like this work.
In themepark design things are all working in a controlled manner, outside of PVP. Yet even PVP has been put in it's cage in most themeparks today. Purists hate that, I hate that. The problem is the masses do not. Their time spent in the game is in a protective state just as they like it. It lends more integrity to them in their enjoyment while playing. AAA will always be shooting for the large audience, the mass audience wants polish, safety, balance and at least an illusion of fairness. These things are easier to achieve in Themepark or controlled environments, that don't allow for emergent game-play or playstyles.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Originally posted by Venekor
Then once the game is releaed everyone will buy it so sales will be high but after that first sub date the population will drop off like crazy and everyone wonders why they wasted £130 on crap.
---
Too true, and the bigger they are the harder the fall.
This game is going to set new records alright, most preorders/orders and without a doubt the most sub cancellations of all time. I'm a huge kotor fan and the more i look into this game my initial excitement about it is pretty much gone, i was going to check this out in March when the first huge price cuts hit, but I'm not sure I'll even waste my time on this game in any trial for F2P scenario.
I like MMO's as much as i like single rpg games. What i found out after playing AoC is oil and water don't mix. The first 18 levels blew me away, at that point i struggled through 2 more levels just to get to the mmo part, played to 80 and could not bring myself to slug through the first 20 levels again just to get to the mmo part.
Think about this, ToR's doesn't have the mo part, its entire game is level 1 to 20 of AoC with out any satisfaction of a finish of a single player game and without ever getting to the mmo part of the game.
It's the equivalent of playing kotor 1 but the ending isn't there, oh well here go play kotor 2 without an ending too, keep paying a monthly sub and you can play kotor 3, then 4, but of course no ending satisfaction.
This game is going to get stale real fast.
+1
I posted a few similar posts. But most fans are ignorantly blind it seems. The more ignorant you are, the heavier the dissapointment will hit you. This is a singleplayer game wrapped in MMO clothing. It would do far better being a singleplayer game, packed in singleplayer clothing.
If you don't want to play then don't play. Quit being so desperate to convince other people to share your feelings. Its ok to be in the minority, you don't need us to validate your feelings.
No one really gives a damn it would seem, I sure as hell don't. If that's what it is, that's what it is. That doesn't mean it can't be fun....
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
No I don't, but neither do I need your attempt to say I am wrong.
Critics are a two way thing. If you don't like to read my words, press the X in top right corner of window.
I am a member of this site too, and as long as I am that, I will post whatever I please within the rules. Your argument empty attempt of stopping me, is only fuel for my engine.
I read both posts, what's your point? That reply was at both, as it's just as obvious to everyone else this game is being sold on telling a story. Without really saying what to look forward to outside of vague statements. If it's a case that there's nothing to stay for, I'm out 60 bucks and probably would have enjoyed the story elements (I like single player rpgs). No one is or can force me to stay and pay more. Making what you just said completely moot.
BtW if I was a blind fanboi, don't you think I'd have pre-ordered the game, or made statements against it being a game to only play for the story elements?
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I did, and got info from people who have been playing beta as well. I stand 100% behind my words !
A huge record-breaking amount of pre-orders, is not the same as a huge stable player base, paying subscription fee month after month. But I guess you were too busy trying to troll off critics to read and understand that part.
I dissagree MMO.Maverick, The NGE crowd is the exact target for TOR. It is the Pre-NGE crowd that played SWG that Bioware is not trying to make a game for.
Post NGE it was a linear themepark, limited class bassed with specials given every few levels style MMO. Lucas Arts seems to have not been able to shake the stigma of NGE in SWG, thus a new game, with a fresh start, and which is basically NGE 2.0
And yes I will agree that 10 times the number play Linear based themeparks, as many game developers are chasing the golden carrot of the large WOW customer base. Leaving Sandbox style games to whither if you will, as either low budgets, or hardcore full loot style pvp twitch based games.
The problem now is MMO's take 5 years plus to put out with polish, unless your Cryptic with the less than 2 years.. oh wait they failed, and have been sold. Thus the games comming out recently were developrd during WOW's large sucess, and only now are Game developers realising if we want WOW, we will simply play WOW. Games getting developed now with this mindset will not arrive for another 4-6 years, and by then the WOW model will be largely loathed by gamers.
SWTOR. Face it, in the Scooby Doo Mystery Solving Van of coolness, this game is Velma. In this current MMO climate it has about as much chance for survival as a group of inquisitive teenagers in a 1980s slasher flick. -Tardcore May, 2011
You know you're right you have every right to post here in the swtor fourm but its sad that you feel the need to come here and let every1 know how much the game is going to fail. But have fun.
The following statement is false
The previous statement is true
I highlighted the part that I am focusing on, and I agree 100%. SWTOR can have all of the pre-orders they want, and they will no doubt sell a ton of boxes the first few months after release, but this does not guarantee any amount of quality of the game. It also does not guarantee that the game will ultimately succeeed. For examples look at AoC and WAR, both of which had a large number of pre-orders and a very healthy amount of box sales, but both games also had numerous issues and were no where near ready for release. Whether SWTOR will be a success or a flop will be decided after the first year or so when we can see what the populations are at and whether they are growing, falling or remaining stable.
STO sold many pre-orders as well, how big of a hit is that game?
SWTOR. Face it, in the Scooby Doo Mystery Solving Van of coolness, this game is Velma. In this current MMO climate it has about as much chance for survival as a group of inquisitive teenagers in a 1980s slasher flick. -Tardcore May, 2011
Horrible comparison, STO had what two years of development time? As well as featured nothing but cut and paste game-play from start to finish, just like most cryptic products.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
You do realize I was saying you may be right, and it seems people do not care if you are or you aren't. I was saying I don't care if you are right, if you read my response to Mara, you'd see I pretty much expect the game to be only offering a good story. Little secret, I'm not really into themepark games. Yeah but I must be the blindest fanboi out there. Make an example of me, please.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Well if the game is actually good they should have no problem with making profit.
Obviously if a game is good people will play it but if majority of the people who played TOR responds positiviely to the game then TOR will definitely have a future.
This is what I don't understand about people that call some MMOs themeparks in a riducule kind of way. Most RPGs, old school and new, would be considered themeparks. Planescape Torment, Baldur's Gate, Zork, Betrayal at Krondor, Mass Effect, Xenogears, Final Fantasy.
Every sandbox MMO I've played failed to have a cohesive engaging story. There were a few people who roleplayed their character, but for the most part is just a mess of people playing themselves and having fun competing (ganking, economic warfare, guild size bragging rights) against other players. But there was very little RPG in the game at all. That's what sandbox players seem to want though.
I don't think of paint ball, laser tag, or tennis as RPGs. The same for EVE Online, Darkfall, and sometimes WoW. They are MMOs, but they seem to be faking the funk when it comes to the RPG department. It's like the marriage between MMO and RPG is over and they're just going through the motions to keep up appearances.
If you aren't interested in developing a character through a pre-existing branching story and plot, doesn't that mean you probably don't like RPGs? And so maybe MMORPGs aren't your thing?