I guess it depends on what you consider "getting this genre off the ground to mean". I remember all the evercrack talk from back in the days but other than that not sure what old school sandboxes mean to the gaming populace at large. Some would argue that WoW is what got the mmorpg industry off the ground and as we all know that is no sandbox.
Sandbox gamers may have been first in online gaming but they aren't owed anything any more than the people who helped bring WoW to it's current levels of popularity.
The bottom line is the sandbox (exclusive) crowd is so small it's going to be hard to see that sandbox game that appeals to enough of them to stand as a success, until then you guys may all do better to try to figure out some common ground on features and support one of the games that comes out in the near future unlike what seems to have been done for DF,MO or FE or any of the other failed "sandbox" games.
With all due respect, where are you getting the figures to support this claim??
Well you can look at any sub numbers released for any sandbox game. My own personal experience is with the original SWG which couldnt get over a million subs with the star wars ip attached to it.
I know lot's of devs like to keep the sub numbers private but from there just look at the environment around the games WoW is proud to release sub numbers and if I'm not mistaken other high profile titles like LOTRO also don't hide them but I'm going on my own experiences and there isn't a sandbox game you can point to that can dispprove my point.
I guess I figured we all knew that by now just looking at the games being copied....
Ah, so what you are saying is that you are just stating a factless opinion based on your observance of low sub numbers in buggy / unfinished / unpolished games?
Ok....gotcha.
I'm sure you woudn't be brazen enough to claim that if 80million+ were spent on developing a quality sandbox title, that the sub numbers might not show something else entirely.....IE, that there are PLENTY of sandbox fans out there who just don't have a game worth playing yet.
I completely disagree that these are the same conditions as around WoW's launch. The feeling of going into a huge virtual world that hadn't been explored with limitless possibilites, no harsh death penalty, smoother animations and better graphics (for the most part) as well as faster combat but still classic MMO that WoW had made it a success.
EA will profit on SW:TOR, but at the end of the day, in a year we won't be seeing massive subs. After WoW the next big contender was LotRO, which came out 2 years later, by which time people had already formed guilds and WoW had already patched in battlegrounds, raids and new content. (and servers were stable).
With SW:TOR, GW2 and TSW are coming out very soon afterwards, and having heard about the games in general chat or whatever, many SW:TOR gamers will try them out. If they are better, it doesn't bode well for Bioware.
WoW succeeded because after it was released it took almost 7 years for a complete, viable and stable competitor to emerge. SW:TOR, or Rift for that matter don't have that luxury. And as I said before, SW or BIOWARE fans expecting no kill 10 quests (with or without VO), fast an action-ey combat, and no immersion breakers WON'T LIKE THIS GAME. And when they see endgame..../quit.
Yeah, 'cause they would expect these things after playing other Bioware games, right?? You know...the ones where you pause constantly during combat, and the animations are pretty much exactly the same ones used in TOR??
And tell me....have YOU seen SWTOR's "endgame"???
No??
Then I'll leave you to enjoy spewing your factless OPINIONS and conjecture.
I completely disagree that these are the same conditions as around WoW's launch. The feeling of going into a huge virtual world that hadn't been explored with limitless possibilites, no harsh death penalty, smoother animations and better graphics (for the most part) as well as faster combat but still classic MMO that WoW had made it a success.
EA will profit on SW:TOR, but at the end of the day, in a year we won't be seeing massive subs. After WoW the next big contender was LotRO, which came out 2 years later, by which time people had already formed guilds and WoW had already patched in battlegrounds, raids and new content. (and servers were stable).
With SW:TOR, GW2 and TSW are coming out very soon afterwards, and having heard about the games in general chat or whatever, many SW:TOR gamers will try them out. If they are better, it doesn't bode well for Bioware.
WoW succeeded because after it was released it took almost 7 years for a complete, viable and stable competitor to emerge. SW:TOR, or Rift for that matter don't have that luxury. And as I said before, SW or BIOWARE fans expecting no kill 10 quests (with or without VO), fast an action-ey combat, and no immersion breakers WON'T LIKE THIS GAME. And when they see endgame..../quit.
In all fairness we don't know what kind of competition those games will be for TOR many of this games detractors can admit they don't expect a buggy broken gaming experience and I can say for sure one of those games is being released by a company who has yet to release an mmo without game breaking bugs.
If those three games can have successful releases the three of them may be able to eat into the games sub numbers some but I don't know that they need to worry because this game is following in the footsteps of Blizzard (which the people here hate equally) yet the only mmo they made remains by far the biggest mmorpg in the western world.
MMO's are probably the biggest miss in games and only a few really do shine through it all and a few shine after awhile of being out.
Publishers want there investment to succeed, The Developers want there product to succeed. EA is not only the Publisher, but there also in charge of the servers, so even they have a lot of stress to deal with and I really do hope everything works out in the end.
Bioware and EA here's to hoping for the best.
Wildstar (2013) & Elder Scroll Online (2013)
Playing: Diablo 3, WOW, Far Cry 3 & X-Com.
Enjoyed: WOW 5 1/2 yrs, LOTRO 3yrs, GW 1/2yr, DFO 1yr, EVE Online 3yrs, and Huxley (Beta).
Failed to impress: GW2 3months, Tera Online 6 months (best combat system in any MMO I've played) STO 1/4yr, Aion 1/2yr, AoC 1yr, CO, Fallen Earth, DDO, EQ2 1/2yr, WAR 1/2yr, Lineage 2 and FF XI 1/2yr, FF XIV.
I guess it depends on what you consider "getting this genre off the ground to mean". I remember all the evercrack talk from back in the days but other than that not sure what old school sandboxes mean to the gaming populace at large. Some would argue that WoW is what got the mmorpg industry off the ground and as we all know that is no sandbox.
Sandbox gamers may have been first in online gaming but they aren't owed anything any more than the people who helped bring WoW to it's current levels of popularity.
The bottom line is the sandbox (exclusive) crowd is so small it's going to be hard to see that sandbox game that appeals to enough of them to stand as a success, until then you guys may all do better to try to figure out some common ground on features and support one of the games that comes out in the near future unlike what seems to have been done for DF,MO or FE or any of the other failed "sandbox" games.
With all due respect, where are you getting the figures to support this claim??
Well you can look at any sub numbers released for any sandbox game. My own personal experience is with the original SWG which couldnt get over a million subs with the star wars ip attached to it.
I know lot's of devs like to keep the sub numbers private but from there just look at the environment around the games WoW is proud to release sub numbers and if I'm not mistaken other high profile titles like LOTRO also don't hide them but I'm going on my own experiences and there isn't a sandbox game you can point to that can dispprove my point.
I guess I figured we all knew that by now just looking at the games being copied....
Ah, so what you are saying is that you are just stating a factless opinion based on your observance of low sub numbers in buggy / unfinished / unpolished games?
Ok....gotcha.
I'm sure you woudn't be brazen enough to claim that if 80million+ were spent on developing a quality sandbox title, that the sub numbers might not show something else entirely.....IE, that there are PLENTY of sandbox fans out there who just don't have a game worth playing yet.
What I will say is that if the people who matter (investors) or the devs who pitch them thought there were enough sandboxers then they would have made the game (and I would probably enjoy it). But as I said sandbox games must not be all that popular or the crowd all that big.
I'm also basing my experience on the fact that I had a few friends who are avid gamers that I tried to get into both WOW and SWG and out of the six three stayed with WOW none wanted to play SWG beyond the first day.
Lawdy, some of you really don't like criticism or sandboxes. We understand that you want more themepark MMO's because they're easy and fun, you don't have to use your brain, and it doesn't really require you to make any form of commitment. For the majortiy of players, it's great. Like someone else has already mentioned, though, most of us sandbox fans come from a time in the genre when we were all that existed, and it's certainly been a frustrating ride through the last fifteen years to see games devolve into what they've become. Of course we're going to post criticisms on a free, open message board, especially if we do that within the rules of the forum. To be surprised by this is a bit ridiculous, everyone knows how vocal we are (and it isn't going to stop).
In particular, it's become of increasing importance to game developers to make MMO's more like console games (to a degree, more accessible, easier to understand). Why? Can't we have separate genre's for separate forms of play? Why do our MMO's, which started as complex worlds, have to be made increasingly mindless to become more succesful?
To me, it's always been apparent in almost every medium of entertainment. People, at large, aren't very bright. There are a bunch of trash eaters out there, and they gobble up just about anything that looks pretty. They are the vast majority (vast). It's only logical to me, realizing that MMO's should be no different than mainstream television, popcorn action flicks, or dime store novels, that they start as something intellectual or passionately driven to create something different, and are eventually forced to change because of heightened popularity. It's the way of the world, and it's certainly not the developers responsibility to help stimulate any of you, when they could be making serious cash from selling you the same damn thing over, and over, and over.
"This is life! We suffer and slave and expire. That's it!" -Bernard Black (Dylan Moran)
It's important that this MMO fails for the genre, otherwise we will see many more years of SWTOR clones which means many more years of WoW clones with cutscenes and probably made more linear.
If SWTOR fails then we'll see a complete attitude change towards the genre and they'll have to do something new and innovative to kick start it again.
Funny enough I find myself hoping on SOE because their next two games are going to be sandboxes.... I never thought I would but there really is nothing to look forward to other than Planetside, EQ3 and whatever Bethesda does.
lol seems to me your a tor hater go ahead hate the more you hate the more the game will succed :P. tor wont fail bioware is awsome for making awsome games and as for guild wars two i like both they both have story and changing unlike tor has different story for every class. both offer different things to the table so to say tor going to fail ....... nope dont see it happpining to many fans out there. and if you hate the game with out even playing it man lol you just to funny i hate people who hate the game with out even playing it them selfs its always the same hate hate and boo boo never changes.
Ah, so what you are saying is that you are just stating a factless opinion based on your observance of low sub numbers in buggy / unfinished / unpolished games?
Ok....gotcha.
I'm sure you woudn't be brazen enough to claim that if 80million+ were spent on developing a quality sandbox title, that the sub numbers might not show something else entirely.....IE, that there are PLENTY of sandbox fans out there who just don't have a game worth playing yet.
What I will say is that if the people who matter (investors) or the devs who pitch them thought there were enough sandboxers then they would have made the game (and I would probably enjoy it). But as I said sandbox games must not be all that popular or the crowd all that big.
I'm also basing my experience on the fact that I had a few friends who are avid gamers that I tried to get into both WOW and SWG and out of the six three stayed with WOW none wanted to play SWG beyond the first day.
These "people that matter" see that someone else is making money, and are simply following their formula as closely as possible to try and do the same.
They are not trying to innovate. They do not KNOW that there is a difference between a Themepark game and a Sandbox game. They see it as an investment in the gaming industry....that is all.
SWG....as much as I personally enjoyed it, is not really the ideal example....the game wasn't finished, and was never really fixed. It never had a chance to become what it might have been.
And the same can be said of the "sandbox" titles churned out by indie developers over the last couple of years.
Trying to claim that there isn't a market for a product that has never been made is kind of silly, man. ESPECIALLY when there are so many people on gaming sites and forums such as these clamoring for that very product.
As far as I know have only on sandbox AAA MMO been made so far, UO. UO did have an experienced team and it did really well for it's time. And the reason I don't mention Eve here is that it was released by a team that was unexperienced at the time and had a low budget.
Actually I just watched a video a little while back with an interview with RG that basically said the opposite. UO really didn't start out as a triple A MMO. It was actually just something they wanted to try, they had no idea it would catch on as it did, not to mention bring them as much money as it did. Everyone also told them it wouldn't work.
It also started out relatively small and grew into something more, because of the support it was given. It's really not much different than the story of EVE.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I completely disagree that these are the same conditions as around WoW's launch. The feeling of going into a huge virtual world that hadn't been explored with limitless possibilites, no harsh death penalty, smoother animations and better graphics (for the most part) as well as faster combat but still classic MMO that WoW had made it a success.
EA will profit on SW:TOR, but at the end of the day, in a year we won't be seeing massive subs. After WoW the next big contender was LotRO, which came out 2 years later, by which time people had already formed guilds and WoW had already patched in battlegrounds, raids and new content. (and servers were stable).
With SW:TOR, GW2 and TSW are coming out very soon afterwards, and having heard about the games in general chat or whatever, many SW:TOR gamers will try them out. If they are better, it doesn't bode well for Bioware.
WoW succeeded because after it was released it took almost 7 years for a complete, viable and stable competitor to emerge. SW:TOR, or Rift for that matter don't have that luxury. And as I said before, SW or BIOWARE fans expecting no kill 10 quests (with or without VO), fast an action-ey combat, and no immersion breakers WON'T LIKE THIS GAME. And when they see endgame..../quit.
The biggest question isn't whether the game will sell or not. Il will sell like hot cakes in the firsts months.
Question is how long will players stay subscribed with GW2 and Diablo 3 F2P, Rift getting more polish, and eventually with TSW hiting the shelves and so on up to Titan around the next corner...
It's important that this MMO fails for the genre, otherwise we will see many more years of SWTOR clones which means many more years of WoW clones with cutscenes and probably made more linear.
If SWTOR fails then we'll see a complete attitude change towards the genre and they'll have to do something new and innovative to kick start it again.
Funny enough I find myself hoping on SOE because their next two games are going to be sandboxes.... I never thought I would but there really is nothing to look forward to other than Planetside, EQ3 and whatever Bethesda does.
you make a very good point. very few companies are trying anything new with the mmo genre, everybody is still vainly hoping they can cash in on the economic monster that wow has become. as a result the mmo market is so lacking in innovation many players, myself included, are becoming increasingly bored and frustrated with whats on offer.
But your right. If TOR fails, with all the money thats been thrown at it, other companies will stand and take notice. it will hopefully make developers realise that its not a budget issue that makes there wow clone fail, its becuase ppl are tired of the format and are crying out for something new and innovative.
i also am looking forward to EQ3 but have been made so cynical over the years that im really not holding my breath
If someone is talking in general chat in a language you dont understand, chances are they're not talking to you. So chill out and stop bitching about it!
Gosh it's funny watching people claim their type of game is better. Or that "Sandboxes are awesome" because that's what they enjoy and all themeparks are bad.
There is one sandbox I know of. Second Life. The rest of these so called "sandboxes" are themepark sandboxes. You work with what the devs give you. You don't have freedom. Unless you considering living in a house in a city that is surrounded by super high walls, with a secret police force making sure you only do a few certain things, do one of four professions, and build the same exact items as the next guy as true freedom! You make Spongebob houses that are duplicates of the person next to you. You create dora the explore plate armor that is no different then what the guy two doors down made.
Anyways.
The MMO market IS niche. Before wow, it had tiny numbers compared to, let's say, singleplayer games or Console games.
Wanting a game to fail for no reason other then "not liking themeparks" makes you look silly. Hoping that games fail and will thus result in companies creating sandboxes that have been shown to hold MUCH LESS paying customers then themeparks. Why would a company create a AAA mmo, targeted at an already small audiance, and then shoot for an even SMALLER portion of that audiance and think to make a hugeeeeeee profit on their giant investment?
I thought business was a required class in college and even high schools.
Really. Get over yourself, thinking your "themepark" or your "sandbox themepark" is the only hope for MMOs. Spend money on those sandboxes to help fund them better, to show companies to invest. Or as was said, just troll forums, spreading disinformation in hopes that someone else will be as unhappy about their games as you.
It's idiotic to wish for failure of a game if the general thought behind wishing for the failure is to motivate positive change in the market.
Why not just say that you wish for a 'better game'? One that meets your standards and those of the majority (or fair-share) of other gamers.
I agree that the games need to change. I think Dev's are struggling to figure out how to do that and what to change, to be honest. Hopefully SW:TOR has found a way to engage the gamers in a way that other games haven't. I'm not sure that a fully-voiced game is the magic-bullet, but I really hope they hit the target on the nose and we'll all have a better gaming experience.
It's idiotic to wish for failure of a game if the general thought behind wishing for the failure is to motivate positive change in the market.
Why not just say that you wish for a 'better game'? One that meets your standards and those of the majority (or fair-share) of other gamers.
I agree that the games need to change. I think Dev's are struggling to figure out how to do that and what to change, to be honest. Hopefully SW:TOR has found a way to engage the gamers in a way that other games haven't. I'm not sure that a fully-voiced game is the magic-bullet, but I really hope they hit the target on the nose and we'll all have a better gaming experience.
Devs are struggling to figure out how to get your money, nothing else. At least AAA devs.
It's idiotic to wish for failure of a game if the general thought behind wishing for the failure is to motivate positive change in the market.
Why not just say that you wish for a 'better game'? One that meets your standards and those of the majority (or fair-share) of other gamers.
I agree that the games need to change. I think Dev's are struggling to figure out how to do that and what to change, to be honest. Hopefully SW:TOR has found a way to engage the gamers in a way that other games haven't. I'm not sure that a fully-voiced game is the magic-bullet, but I really hope they hit the target on the nose and we'll all have a better gaming experience.
I wonder how long before people start screaming "Where's the skip button?!?!"
Voice acting sounds fine and dandly but like all things that doesn't deal directly with gameplay or it's your 10th time in the conversation there will be a point where it's repetitive. Look at WoW, some great original stuff but eventually it got to the point where it's the same thing again and again and again.... and again.
It's idiotic to wish for failure of a game if the general thought behind wishing for the failure is to motivate positive change in the market.
Why not just say that you wish for a 'better game'? One that meets your standards and those of the majority (or fair-share) of other gamers.
I agree that the games need to change. I think Dev's are struggling to figure out how to do that and what to change, to be honest. Hopefully SW:TOR has found a way to engage the gamers in a way that other games haven't. I'm not sure that a fully-voiced game is the magic-bullet, but I really hope they hit the target on the nose and we'll all have a better gaming experience.
I wonder how long before people start screaming "Where's the skip button?!?!"
Voice acting sounds fine and dandly but like all things that doesn't deal directly with gameplay or it's your 10th time in the conversation there will be a point where it's repetitive. Look at WoW, some great original stuff but eventually it got to the point where it's the same thing again and again and again.... and again.
I guess one could say how long until people skip DE or skip mysteries or skip levels (some games let you skip levels alltogether)
Sadly people do or will do this, but that doens't mean you should try. besides it's not like VO maens lock you into conversation. This is just one way of doing it. I guess people have never heard of people talking while running to a destination. *rolls eyes*
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.
It's important that this MMO fails for the genre, otherwise we will see many more years of SWTOR clones which means many more years of WoW clones with cutscenes and probably made more linear.
If SWTOR fails then we'll see a complete attitude change towards the genre and they'll have to do something new and innovative to kick start it again.
Funny enough I find myself hoping on SOE because their next two games are going to be sandboxes.... I never thought I would but there really is nothing to look forward to other than Planetside, EQ3 and whatever Bethesda does.
I was going to create a long "are you crazy" post here but the bottom line is that anyone who wants any MMO to fail, ESPECIALLY SWTOR, has absolutely 0 business sense and explaining it all would be a complete waste of time. I am not trying to be insulting but this is such a silly thing to want .
Just to be clear, you think "sandbox" equates to Innovative? Also, you think there is nothing at all innovative, not one unique thing, in TOR? Are those accurate questions.
A lot, and I do mean A LOT of sandbox fans speak of sandbox games as being innovative. Of course in order to call a sandbox game innovative just because it's sandbox you have to completely redefine the word innovative. The truth is people throw that word 'innovative' around because it sounds good, they rarely put much thought into what the word actually means.
I would consider myself a sandbox fan and a themepark fan. I wouldn't call a game innovative just because it is a sandbox. For example, I don't consider Darkfall to be innovative because it was basically modeled directly off of UO. The only real innovation it has that I can think of is the whole territorial PvP thing. Everything else is very much like UO.
However, games like Eve or UO are definitely innovative...you really can't argue with that.
As a whole, I think sandbox games are generally more innovative, but that's because of two things:
1. There haven't really been that many of them. There are tons of themepark games and many of them are little more than clones...
2. A successful sandbox formula has yet to emerge. Nearly all themepark games use the "WoW" formula. There really isn't an equivalent "WoW" game in the sandbox sub-genre, so developers are basically forced to innovate to a degree.
UO gets some credit for innovation simply because of the time it released Anarchy-Online in my opion was more innovative than EVE and most all other mmogs on market.Ao had player vehicles(mounts) apartments(housing), mission terminals for quests i could go on and on but imo Anarchy Online is one of the most innovative mmogs that ever came out.
I have bashed TOR on these forums quite a lot but honestly I'm willing to play it and also pre-ordered. Also, I like themepark games. To all you bitter sandbox folks I can only suggest this - get laid to get stress level down, go out from your parents basement and see the world, and/or support existing sandbox games.
What does sex have to do with any of this, or living in basements? As far as I'm concerned, you're posting on a gaming forum, on the internet. You can try to make blanket statements like this to appear "above it all", but the fact is you're falling back upon the same old tired, boring, and unoriginal line of bullshit that we all know isn't true. I'm a succesful adult, I have jobs, responsibilities, and I contribute to society. I also like sandbox games, and sharing my criticisms on the internet. What's the big fuckin deal, bro?
"This is life! We suffer and slave and expire. That's it!" -Bernard Black (Dylan Moran)
I have bashed TOR on these forums quite a lot but honestly I'm willing to play it and also pre-ordered. Also, I like themepark games. To all you bitter sandbox folks I can only suggest this - get laid to get stress level down, go out from your parents basement and see the world, and/or support existing sandbox games.
What does sex have to do with any of this, or living in basements? As far as I'm concerned, you're posting on a gaming forum, on the internet. You can try to make blanket statements like this to appear "above it all", but the fact is you're falling back upon the same old tired, boring, and unoriginal line of bullshit that we all know isn't true. I'm a succesful adult, I have jobs, responsibilities, and I contribute to society. I also like sandbox games, and sharing my criticisms on the internet. What's the big fuckin deal, bro?
lol he trying to say something positve to stop being so stressed about a game thats not even out yet ^_^.
all i have to say is hate the game if you want but play it hands on first before you hate. makes no sence to hate something you have not played if i hate something i make sure dam well i played it then i put feed back,,,,,,,
I have bashed TOR on these forums quite a lot but honestly I'm willing to play it and also pre-ordered. Also, I like themepark games. To all you bitter sandbox folks I can only suggest this - get laid to get stress level down, go out from your parents basement and see the world, and/or support existing sandbox games.
What does sex have to do with any of this, or living in basements? As far as I'm concerned, you're posting on a gaming forum, on the internet. You can try to make blanket statements like this to appear "above it all", but the fact is you're falling back upon the same old tired, boring, and unoriginal line of bullshit that we all know isn't true. I'm a succesful adult, I have jobs, responsibilities, and I contribute to society. I also like sandbox games, and sharing my criticisms on the internet. What's the big fuckin deal, bro?
lol he trying to say something positve to stop being so stressed about a game thats not even out yet ^_^.
That's not positive at all, dude. It's not even constructive.
"This is life! We suffer and slave and expire. That's it!" -Bernard Black (Dylan Moran)
As far as I know have only on sandbox AAA MMO been made so far, UO. UO did have an experienced team and it did really well for it's time. And the reason I don't mention Eve here is that it was released by a team that was unexperienced at the time and had a low budget.
The fact is that we have no real clue if a AAA sandbox game would work fine or not because so few have been made, and most AAA games actually flops even though they are themeparks.
I am not saying that Bioware should make a sandbox game, that would probably be a very bad idea, it is not what they are good at and devs that don't do what they are good at fails.
The market is not ready for random unnamed MMO titles at all. Look on the huge games, they were all made by experienced crews no matter what, MMOs are really hard to make.
Saying that sandboxes or themeparks are better than the other type is stupid, both have huge potential which almost all companies just mess up.
I personally believe that the next big sandbox game will be World of darkness online, it have an experienced team, a good budget and a popular IP that CCP owns.
But this whole thing have nothing to do with TOR. The Star wars IP works for both types of games and Bioware is making the right call to make the type of game they are famous for.
90% of all MMOs fail and the number gets even higher if you just count low budget games. Using that statistic to prove that the few sandbox games that have been made since 2004 failed does not prove anything at all.
Exactly. It always annoys me when "theme-park zealots" that are convinced that the sandbox sub-genre has failed, act as if there are just TONS of sandbox games out of the market that flopped.
As Loke said, the ONLY "AAA" sandbox MMORPG EVER was UO...and guess what? IT DEFINED THE MMORPG GENRE!
All other sandbox games that have come out have not been "AAA," they've all been from smaller companies. All you have to do is look at Darkfall to tell that it's not an AAA game.
I'm not against theme park games by any means, but if you're going to argue against sandbox games, please look at the facts first.
I never said that sandbox games have failed in any sense, but we have seen that they just aren't as widely popular -- simply because full "sandbox" titles aren't as popular.
Hence, why I pointed out an Elder Scrolls MMO or a Fallout MMO geared towards sandbox style gameplay may do well. The sandbox style of gameplay is really a niche, and honestly, the sandbox games out there right now aren't unplayable -- they just aren't widely popular because they aren't that much fun in the long term.
Even on its best days SWG (which was also a triple A title, or did we forget?) which also had a strong IP didn't come anywhere near their intended target, and was obviously losing subscribers at such a rate that it took at least 2 MAJOR gameplay changes before they got the message just to let it go.
SWG was one of the games I spent the most time in too, and my server was very busy, but apparently just what I was seeing wasn't enough.
Lets not pretend that sandbox games don't exist in any playable capacity out there. There are plenty of sandbox titles to choose from, but hardly anyone is playing them. A triple A title from a big developer would likely do well... if they are gearing towards a demographic thats already proven like the Elder Scrolls Series. Otherwise, its doubtful we'll see any kind of foothold in the sandbox market anytime soon.
Name one modern AAA fantasy sandbox MMORPG .
Aside from UO? The point is, there have been sandbox AAA titles and they didn't do well, there are plenty of sandbox fantasy titles out right now that aren't doing well... We could say, "Name one themepark fantasy game where you cook instead of killing" or "Name a triple A themepark racing MMORPG" .
Sandboxes really arnt as niche as everyone seems to think they are, they just dont get advertised to the public. Where as themepark games get shoved down gamers throats, and everyones for that matter with TV, I've never seen a single sandbox game have a TV commercial, not a damn one.
People seem to think sandboxes have low population because people dont like them, which is just blowing smoke up peoples asses, they dont have large populations because people dont know about them, have never tried them, and arnt advertised to them as something they should try. If a AAA Sandbox was made, and had the money backing for the advertisement, and good graphics, the game would go off huge, so many people who have never even touched a sandbox would try it and be instantly hooked exactly like what happened with themeparks.
I like both types, but dont try to act like they've been on an equal playing field and sandboxes have been losing, Themepark games have been in a different finacial league since they hit the MMO Genre Scene.
Fixed it for The guy below me, theres always one technical english nazi
Comments
Ah, so what you are saying is that you are just stating a factless opinion based on your observance of low sub numbers in buggy / unfinished / unpolished games?
Ok....gotcha.
I'm sure you woudn't be brazen enough to claim that if 80million+ were spent on developing a quality sandbox title, that the sub numbers might not show something else entirely.....IE, that there are PLENTY of sandbox fans out there who just don't have a game worth playing yet.
Yeah, 'cause they would expect these things after playing other Bioware games, right?? You know...the ones where you pause constantly during combat, and the animations are pretty much exactly the same ones used in TOR??
And tell me....have YOU seen SWTOR's "endgame"???
No??
Then I'll leave you to enjoy spewing your factless OPINIONS and conjecture.
In all fairness we don't know what kind of competition those games will be for TOR many of this games detractors can admit they don't expect a buggy broken gaming experience and I can say for sure one of those games is being released by a company who has yet to release an mmo without game breaking bugs.
If those three games can have successful releases the three of them may be able to eat into the games sub numbers some but I don't know that they need to worry because this game is following in the footsteps of Blizzard (which the people here hate equally) yet the only mmo they made remains by far the biggest mmorpg in the western world.
MMO's are probably the biggest miss in games and only a few really do shine through it all and a few shine after awhile of being out.
Publishers want there investment to succeed, The Developers want there product to succeed. EA is not only the Publisher, but there also in charge of the servers, so even they have a lot of stress to deal with and I really do hope everything works out in the end.
Bioware and EA here's to hoping for the best.
Wildstar (2013) & Elder Scroll Online (2013)
Playing: Diablo 3, WOW, Far Cry 3 & X-Com.
Enjoyed: WOW 5 1/2 yrs, LOTRO 3yrs, GW 1/2yr, DFO 1yr, EVE Online 3yrs, and Huxley (Beta).
Failed to impress: GW2 3months, Tera Online 6 months (best combat system in any MMO I've played) STO 1/4yr, Aion 1/2yr, AoC 1yr, CO, Fallen Earth, DDO, EQ2 1/2yr, WAR 1/2yr, Lineage 2 and FF XI 1/2yr, FF XIV.
What I will say is that if the people who matter (investors) or the devs who pitch them thought there were enough sandboxers then they would have made the game (and I would probably enjoy it). But as I said sandbox games must not be all that popular or the crowd all that big.
I'm also basing my experience on the fact that I had a few friends who are avid gamers that I tried to get into both WOW and SWG and out of the six three stayed with WOW none wanted to play SWG beyond the first day.
Lawdy, some of you really don't like criticism or sandboxes. We understand that you want more themepark MMO's because they're easy and fun, you don't have to use your brain, and it doesn't really require you to make any form of commitment. For the majortiy of players, it's great. Like someone else has already mentioned, though, most of us sandbox fans come from a time in the genre when we were all that existed, and it's certainly been a frustrating ride through the last fifteen years to see games devolve into what they've become. Of course we're going to post criticisms on a free, open message board, especially if we do that within the rules of the forum. To be surprised by this is a bit ridiculous, everyone knows how vocal we are (and it isn't going to stop).
In particular, it's become of increasing importance to game developers to make MMO's more like console games (to a degree, more accessible, easier to understand). Why? Can't we have separate genre's for separate forms of play? Why do our MMO's, which started as complex worlds, have to be made increasingly mindless to become more succesful?
To me, it's always been apparent in almost every medium of entertainment. People, at large, aren't very bright. There are a bunch of trash eaters out there, and they gobble up just about anything that looks pretty. They are the vast majority (vast). It's only logical to me, realizing that MMO's should be no different than mainstream television, popcorn action flicks, or dime store novels, that they start as something intellectual or passionately driven to create something different, and are eventually forced to change because of heightened popularity. It's the way of the world, and it's certainly not the developers responsibility to help stimulate any of you, when they could be making serious cash from selling you the same damn thing over, and over, and over.
"This is life! We suffer and slave and expire. That's it!" -Bernard Black (Dylan Moran)
lol seems to me your a tor hater go ahead hate the more you hate the more the game will succed :P. tor wont fail bioware is awsome for making awsome games and as for guild wars two i like both they both have story and changing unlike tor has different story for every class. both offer different things to the table so to say tor going to fail ....... nope dont see it happpining to many fans out there. and if you hate the game with out even playing it man lol you just to funny i hate people who hate the game with out even playing it them selfs its always the same hate hate and boo boo never changes.
.....
These "people that matter" see that someone else is making money, and are simply following their formula as closely as possible to try and do the same.
They are not trying to innovate. They do not KNOW that there is a difference between a Themepark game and a Sandbox game. They see it as an investment in the gaming industry....that is all.
SWG....as much as I personally enjoyed it, is not really the ideal example....the game wasn't finished, and was never really fixed. It never had a chance to become what it might have been.
And the same can be said of the "sandbox" titles churned out by indie developers over the last couple of years.
Trying to claim that there isn't a market for a product that has never been made is kind of silly, man. ESPECIALLY when there are so many people on gaming sites and forums such as these clamoring for that very product.
Actually I just watched a video a little while back with an interview with RG that basically said the opposite. UO really didn't start out as a triple A MMO. It was actually just something they wanted to try, they had no idea it would catch on as it did, not to mention bring them as much money as it did. Everyone also told them it wouldn't work.
It also started out relatively small and grew into something more, because of the support it was given. It's really not much different than the story of EVE.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
The biggest question isn't whether the game will sell or not. Il will sell like hot cakes in the firsts months.
Question is how long will players stay subscribed with GW2 and Diablo 3 F2P, Rift getting more polish, and eventually with TSW hiting the shelves and so on up to Titan around the next corner...
you make a very good point. very few companies are trying anything new with the mmo genre, everybody is still vainly hoping they can cash in on the economic monster that wow has become. as a result the mmo market is so lacking in innovation many players, myself included, are becoming increasingly bored and frustrated with whats on offer.
But your right. If TOR fails, with all the money thats been thrown at it, other companies will stand and take notice. it will hopefully make developers realise that its not a budget issue that makes there wow clone fail, its becuase ppl are tired of the format and are crying out for something new and innovative.
i also am looking forward to EQ3 but have been made so cynical over the years that im really not holding my breath
If someone is talking in general chat in a language you dont understand, chances are they're not talking to you. So chill out and stop bitching about it!
Gosh it's funny watching people claim their type of game is better. Or that "Sandboxes are awesome" because that's what they enjoy and all themeparks are bad.
There is one sandbox I know of. Second Life. The rest of these so called "sandboxes" are themepark sandboxes. You work with what the devs give you. You don't have freedom. Unless you considering living in a house in a city that is surrounded by super high walls, with a secret police force making sure you only do a few certain things, do one of four professions, and build the same exact items as the next guy as true freedom! You make Spongebob houses that are duplicates of the person next to you. You create dora the explore plate armor that is no different then what the guy two doors down made.
Anyways.
The MMO market IS niche. Before wow, it had tiny numbers compared to, let's say, singleplayer games or Console games.
Wanting a game to fail for no reason other then "not liking themeparks" makes you look silly. Hoping that games fail and will thus result in companies creating sandboxes that have been shown to hold MUCH LESS paying customers then themeparks. Why would a company create a AAA mmo, targeted at an already small audiance, and then shoot for an even SMALLER portion of that audiance and think to make a hugeeeeeee profit on their giant investment?
I thought business was a required class in college and even high schools.
Really. Get over yourself, thinking your "themepark" or your "sandbox themepark" is the only hope for MMOs. Spend money on those sandboxes to help fund them better, to show companies to invest. Or as was said, just troll forums, spreading disinformation in hopes that someone else will be as unhappy about their games as you.
It's idiotic to wish for failure of a game if the general thought behind wishing for the failure is to motivate positive change in the market.
Why not just say that you wish for a 'better game'? One that meets your standards and those of the majority (or fair-share) of other gamers.
I agree that the games need to change. I think Dev's are struggling to figure out how to do that and what to change, to be honest. Hopefully SW:TOR has found a way to engage the gamers in a way that other games haven't. I'm not sure that a fully-voiced game is the magic-bullet, but I really hope they hit the target on the nose and we'll all have a better gaming experience.
Devs are struggling to figure out how to get your money, nothing else. At least AAA devs.
An honest review of SW:TOR 6/10 (Danny Wojcicki)
I wonder how long before people start screaming "Where's the skip button?!?!"
Voice acting sounds fine and dandly but like all things that doesn't deal directly with gameplay or it's your 10th time in the conversation there will be a point where it's repetitive. Look at WoW, some great original stuff but eventually it got to the point where it's the same thing again and again and again.... and again.
I guess one could say how long until people skip DE or skip mysteries or skip levels (some games let you skip levels alltogether)
Sadly people do or will do this, but that doens't mean you should try. besides it's not like VO maens lock you into conversation. This is just one way of doing it. I guess people have never heard of people talking while running to a destination. *rolls eyes*
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.
UO gets some credit for innovation simply because of the time it released Anarchy-Online in my opion was more innovative than EVE and most all other mmogs on market.Ao had player vehicles(mounts) apartments(housing), mission terminals for quests i could go on and on but imo Anarchy Online is one of the most innovative mmogs that ever came out.
What does sex have to do with any of this, or living in basements? As far as I'm concerned, you're posting on a gaming forum, on the internet. You can try to make blanket statements like this to appear "above it all", but the fact is you're falling back upon the same old tired, boring, and unoriginal line of bullshit that we all know isn't true. I'm a succesful adult, I have jobs, responsibilities, and I contribute to society. I also like sandbox games, and sharing my criticisms on the internet. What's the big fuckin deal, bro?
"This is life! We suffer and slave and expire. That's it!" -Bernard Black (Dylan Moran)
lol he trying to say something positve to stop being so stressed about a game thats not even out yet ^_^.
.....
all i have to say is hate the game if you want but play it hands on first before you hate. makes no sence to hate something you have not played if i hate something i make sure dam well i played it then i put feed back,,,,,,,
.....
That's not positive at all, dude. It's not even constructive.
"This is life! We suffer and slave and expire. That's it!" -Bernard Black (Dylan Moran)
Aside from UO? The point is, there have been sandbox AAA titles and they didn't do well, there are plenty of sandbox fantasy titles out right now that aren't doing well... We could say, "Name one themepark fantasy game where you cook instead of killing" or "Name a triple A themepark racing MMORPG" .
Sandboxes really arnt as niche as everyone seems to think they are, they just dont get advertised to the public. Where as themepark games get shoved down gamers throats, and everyones for that matter with TV, I've never seen a single sandbox game have a TV commercial, not a damn one.
People seem to think sandboxes have low population because people dont like them, which is just blowing smoke up peoples asses, they dont have large populations because people dont know about them, have never tried them, and arnt advertised to them as something they should try. If a AAA Sandbox was made, and had the money backing for the advertisement, and good graphics, the game would go off huge, so many people who have never even touched a sandbox would try it and be instantly hooked exactly like what happened with themeparks.
I like both types, but dont try to act like they've been on an equal playing field and sandboxes have been losing, Themepark games have been in a different finacial league since they hit the MMO Genre Scene.
Fixed it for The guy below me, theres always one technical english nazi
Mess with the best, Die like the rest
Since popularity is directly a measurement of how well liked something is........ well you can see where I am going.