The game is a fail already for me. I'm not interested in playing WOW with a Star Wars skin. From what i gathered, this is exactly what this game is gonna be, a glorified WOW clone with a Star Wars skin.
The game is a fail already for me. I'm not interested in playing WOW with a Star Wars skin. From what i gathered, this is exactly what this game is gonna be, a glorified WOW clone with a Star Wars skin.
I completely disagree. How can our last hope be something that really doesn't offer anything new, and isn't expected to change or advance the genre, but only be popular. GW2 is closer to a 'last hope'. Though even that is bollocks, because no matter what the genre will still be here as long as there are people to play the games.
Personally, I'm waiting to hear more info on Class3 and Class4 .
Don't you think that maybe MMORPGs as a definition has changed? I remember having great fondness of MMOs and used to get into them quite regularly. Not so much these days, I've been more inclided to play co-op games these days.
Ha, some games I feel that waiting for a dungeon while doing quests is akin to waiting in a lobby of Call of Duty getting your custom class ready. A glorifed waiting room. Ah well, maybe bigger isn't better any more?
I think if TOR fails, it will be the end of established IP's as MMO's but not MMO's in general. Funcom is done with established IP's. Smedley says SOE is done with them(See SWG and DCUO and the constant issues with those IP holders). I'm not a fan of IP's because you have non-video game people messing with things they simply do not understand. You get stupid decisions that hamstring the game for the sake of their image and reputation. Unfinished or delayed content to fit in with a movie release. Fun, fans and quality is always number 2 with these games.
I feel TOR will be fine. It has something SWG did not. A strong established game publisher to push back any suggestions of NGE if TOR does not have a million subscribers. The Star Wars IP doesn't mean what it did 5 years ago. Its not going to carry a game to success. The gameplay has to do that.
My above statement is made assuming TOR is $15 a month. I have this itch that it will be $20 which is way above my comfort level so they will lose at least 1 sub before launch.
Yup, a monthly fee above $15 is going to kill off subscribers, but with it being EA who knows what horrible shite they'll pull... they've not exactly covered themselves with glory over the pre-orders. Hopefully they'll realise this and not be too greedy.
The RP part were taken over by Action many years ago mate (about the time when EQ2 and WoW was released). This game is not a MMORPG. It's a MMOAG. Very few companies got the courage to try to bring back the RP part.
Ofcourse it wont be the end of the genre if SWTOR fails, it will simply mean that the devs had a wrong approach to developing MMO's, that's it. Other companies will learn and adapt.
I guess this will be one of those games where you will feel very lonely, despite passing by hundreds of players an hour.
Why put your chips all into one game, then go and say doom and gloom if it fails. I personally think Mmos will slowly add more to the themepark area of its games, but also we should realize the mmo general market likes themepark games. I personally see SW; and guild wars 2 being huge games once they are both out. I hope next blizzard mmo is a succes also, more variety is always great for the genre, and hopefully a step in a good direction to the games we play.
iI this game is the genre's last hope then it's already dead for me. I'm not even interested in this game. I think I'll give GW2 a try anyways.
And since you are so important if you are not interested that must be the end all be all of it.
Anyone hoping this game will fail so it will usher in games that they like will be very disappointed when their games still are not the focus because investors understand why they are not viable.
I don't hope this game fails. I think it's going to do fine. I just think the OP's doom and gloom is a bit silly.
The RP part were taken over by Action many years ago mate (about the time when EQ2 and WoW was released). This game is not a MMORPG. It's a MMOAG. Very few companies got the courage to try to bring back the RP part.
Actually, Both ANet and BW stated that they wanted to bring the RPG back into MMORPG, and the way they intended to do that was the same, by introducing more story and context to questing and missions instead of them being barely camouflaged task lists.
Originally posted by Crazylike
I watched and loved the SW movies, but this game isnt interesting to me at all. It doesnt look any good to me. Im waiting for Diablo 3, screw MMO's!
Then wat are you doing on an MMO site if current MMO's don't interest you?
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I think it depends on players. Some odd games are out there with your name on it - that you never heard of yet, maybe? It does not have to be a well known mmorpg or a future mmorpg or an "One mmorpg to rule them all..."
It is so misguided to say if game X fails, then industry Y is doomed.
You can't predict the fate of an entire industry based on the success of a single product. You have to look at the industry as a whole. For example, if SWTOR fails, but the MMORPG industry continues to grow because of other games, then the industry obviously did not fail. This is especially true for an industry where there are soooo many competitors, like the MMORPG industry.
It's like saying that if Crest fails then toothpaste is doomed. No...everyone will just buy Colgate!
For a real example of an industry failing (or at least declining), look at music games. Music games (Guitar Hero, Rock Band, etc.) used to be EXTREMELY popular. But then people just started to lose interest around Guitar Hero World Tour and when Rock Band 3 came out, it sold a paltry number of copies despite having major innovations and receiving extremely positive reviews.
Yeah you hit the nail right on the head, if this game fails in some sense to it's investors then expect that more money may be shifted towards development on games that don't follow a strictly themepark development but this games failure couldn't really doom such a fragmented market as mmorpg's.
Yeah, they call those single player console games. SWTOR is not likely to fail but should it happen don't go expecting companies to go running out to make the Sandbox game you or others might be looking for We all know the track record for more current Sandbox MMOs. They either fail or are purely a niche for hardcore PVP players. Those resources will shift to a more stable and predictible area of the gaming market.
I will say this again but if Bioware doing a Star Wars MMO with an 80+ million dollar budget and 5-6 years of development fails (on a business level, not the individual player level) you live in wonderland if you think that would not have a major negative impact on the MMO market. Publishers will not want to invest any significant dollars into this space any more.
Don't go counting GW2 in the mix either. It will not have the fan base (GW2 will cater to existing MMO players and GW players) to do what TOR is potentially capable of. Plus, it has a completely different model. I am really looking forward to GW2 as well but am realisitic about its actualy impact on the market.
Do you honestly think that investors are too dumb to separate the success/failure of one product from the success/failure of an entire industry (MMORPG in this case)?
If SWTOR utterly falls on its face, but WoW, GW2, and Archeage are all successful, resulting in the overall industry continuing to grow; the MMORPG industry will be FAR from dead. In fact, what will happen is investors will shy away from games that are "like" SWTOR. Sci-fi, WoW-model themepark, etc. But they will more readily invest in games that are "like" GW2, Archeage etc...
On the other hand, if SWTOR falls on its face AND the other games in the industry do poorly, investors will see that the market is shrinking and back off. Industry perspective here. Looking at one product is like tunnelvision.
Also, I think you are being a bit prejudiced about GW2. Why do you think it's not going to have as big a fan base as SWTOR? There seems to be a misguided belief that GW2 is somehow going to only appeal to a niche of people. I really see no evidence of this.
I've seen two polls on this site asking "what game are you most hyped for" and in each case, GW2 was the top choice. Also, Guild Wars sold over 6 million boxes (including all campaigns, so over 1 million players). GW2 will appeal to an even broader demographic. That doesn't sound like a "niche" audience to me.
In addition to that, SWTOR won't appeal to ALL Star Wars fans. It will appeal to Star Wars fans who happen to be PC gamers. That's a much smaller demo than "all Star Wars fans." With all this said...I don't want SWTOR to fail. I hope it's a good game. But I wanted to dispel any notions that its failure will somehow "doom" the industry. That's silly.
IMO I believe the Genre fails if GW2 fails (which i'm pretty damn sure it won't, I've been in love with the Guild Wars set up and world for about 7 years now) and for some reason... The Secret World also fails, which I don't see happening. So honestly SWTOR isn't the last hope.
This is just an opinion from the OP . I disagree 100%.
The genre is already dead with respect to it's original roots and has just become something of a cash cow hybrid from where it's root were initially born.
Until real gameplay returns, and Auction Houses/ Mailboxes / Insta Travel / Insta quest and level are removed what we have now are games which take little to master and are not worth playing. (Bar a couple of gems).
________________________________________________________ Sorcery must persist, the future is the Citadel
On the other hand, if SWTOR falls on its face AND the other games in the industry do poorly, investors will see that the market is shrinking and back off. Industry perspective here. Looking at one product is like tunnelvision.
Also, I think you are being a bit prejudiced about GW2. Why do you think it's not going to have as big a fan base as SWTOR? There seems to be a misguided belief that GW2 is somehow going to only appeal to a niche of people. I really see no evidence of this.
I've seen two polls on this site asking "what game are you most hyped for" and in each case, GW2 was the top choice. Also, Guild Wars sold over 6 million boxes (including all campaigns, so over 1 million players). GW2 will appeal to an even broader demographic. That doesn't sound like a "niche" audience to me.
In addition to that, SWTOR won't appeal to ALL Star Wars fans. It will appeal to Star Wars fans who happen to be PC gamers. That's a much smaller demo than "all Star Wars fans." With all this said...I don't want SWTOR to fail. I hope it's a good game. But I wanted to dispel any notions that its failure will somehow "doom" the industry. That's silly.
Looking at one product i exactly what a lot of investors did when WoW became very popular. They looked at its success and its type of MMO gameplay design and decided, based on that one product, to go the route of WoW-styled themepark MMO's for years at a stretch.
In fact, I can safely say that if WoW hadn't existed, themepark MMO's wouldn't have been as abundant as they are today and sandbox MMO's and other non-themepark MMO's wouldn't have ended up at the fringe as they are now.
As for GW2 or SWTOR or AA: if any MMO can attract and keep millions of MMO gamers, naturally it'll get the attention of investors, that's simple logic.
However, I can recall an article of a while back that a lot of investors and other gaming companies are watching SWTOR with more than the usual attention to see how it'll do. Why? For the simple reason that it'll be a testing ground because of its prominent game company, the big budget, a big publisher and one of the most important IP's, this specific combination of those 4 elements is what has the industry watching this title more than other MMO titles.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
On the other hand, if SWTOR falls on its face AND the other games in the industry do poorly, investors will see that the market is shrinking and back off. Industry perspective here. Looking at one product is like tunnelvision.
Also, I think you are being a bit prejudiced about GW2. Why do you think it's not going to have as big a fan base as SWTOR? There seems to be a misguided belief that GW2 is somehow going to only appeal to a niche of people. I really see no evidence of this.
I've seen two polls on this site asking "what game are you most hyped for" and in each case, GW2 was the top choice. Also, Guild Wars sold over 6 million boxes (including all campaigns, so over 1 million players). GW2 will appeal to an even broader demographic. That doesn't sound like a "niche" audience to me.
In addition to that, SWTOR won't appeal to ALL Star Wars fans. It will appeal to Star Wars fans who happen to be PC gamers. That's a much smaller demo than "all Star Wars fans." With all this said...I don't want SWTOR to fail. I hope it's a good game. But I wanted to dispel any notions that its failure will somehow "doom" the industry. That's silly.
Looking at one product i exactly what a lot of investors did when WoW became very popular. They looked at its success and its type of MMO gameplay design and decided, based on that one product, to go the route of WoW-styled themepark MMO's for years at a stretch.
In fact, I can safely say that if WoW hadn't existed, themepark MMO's wouldn't have been as abundant as they are today and sandbox MMO's and other non-themepark MMO's wouldn't have ended up at the fringe as they are now.
As for GW2 or SWTOR or AA: if any MMO can attract and keep millions of MMO gamers, naturally it'll get the attention of investors, that's simple logic.
However, I can recall an article of a while back that a lot of investors and other gaming companies are watching SWTOR with more than the usual attention to see how it'll do. Why? For the simple reason that it'll be a testing ground because of its prominent game company, the big budget, a big publisher and one of the most important IP's, this specific combination of those 4 elements is what has the industry watching this title more than other MMO titles.
I also remember in that article there were quite a few summations that TOR's success and/or failure could have a lasting impact on the genre's future. That's coming from actual devs at many large studios.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
On the other hand, if SWTOR falls on its face AND the other games in the industry do poorly, investors will see that the market is shrinking and back off. Industry perspective here. Looking at one product is like tunnelvision.
Also, I think you are being a bit prejudiced about GW2. Why do you think it's not going to have as big a fan base as SWTOR? There seems to be a misguided belief that GW2 is somehow going to only appeal to a niche of people. I really see no evidence of this.
I've seen two polls on this site asking "what game are you most hyped for" and in each case, GW2 was the top choice. Also, Guild Wars sold over 6 million boxes (including all campaigns, so over 1 million players). GW2 will appeal to an even broader demographic. That doesn't sound like a "niche" audience to me.
In addition to that, SWTOR won't appeal to ALL Star Wars fans. It will appeal to Star Wars fans who happen to be PC gamers. That's a much smaller demo than "all Star Wars fans." With all this said...I don't want SWTOR to fail. I hope it's a good game. But I wanted to dispel any notions that its failure will somehow "doom" the industry. That's silly.
Looking at one product i exactly what a lot of investors did when WoW became very popular. They looked at its success and its type of MMO gameplay design and decided, based on that one product, to go the route of WoW-styled themepark MMO's for years at a stretch.
In fact, I can safely say that if WoW hadn't existed, themepark MMO's wouldn't have been as abundant as they are today and sandbox MMO's and other non-themepark MMO's wouldn't have ended up at the fringe as they are now.
As for GW2 or SWTOR or AA: if any MMO can attract and keep millions of MMO gamers, naturally it'll get the attention of investors, that's simple logic.
However, I can recall an article of a while back that a lot of investors and other gaming companies are watching SWTOR with more than the usual attention to see how it'll do. Why? For the simple reason that it'll be a testing ground because of its prominent game company, the big budget, a big publisher and one of the most important IP's, this specific combination of those 4 elements is what has the industry watching this title more than other MMO titles.
I also remember in that article there were quite a few summations that TOR's success and/or failure could have a lasting impact on the genre's future. That's coming from actual devs at many large studios.
It was BS then and it's BS now. It's all based on a lot of speculation and the belief that game X (substitute WAR or SWTOR) is somehow the only game with any real chance of success. WAR failed pretty solidly and yet MMORPGs continue to be made and new MMORPG projects continue to be undertaken.
SWTOR failing alone will not do much damage to the MMORPG market. On the other hand, if SWTOR fails AND all the other big up and comers (GW2, AA, TSW, WoD) fail...then yeah that's very bad for the market/industry.
On the other hand, if SWTOR falls on its face AND the other games in the industry do poorly, investors will see that the market is shrinking and back off. Industry perspective here. Looking at one product is like tunnelvision.
Also, I think you are being a bit prejudiced about GW2. Why do you think it's not going to have as big a fan base as SWTOR? There seems to be a misguided belief that GW2 is somehow going to only appeal to a niche of people. I really see no evidence of this.
I've seen two polls on this site asking "what game are you most hyped for" and in each case, GW2 was the top choice. Also, Guild Wars sold over 6 million boxes (including all campaigns, so over 1 million players). GW2 will appeal to an even broader demographic. That doesn't sound like a "niche" audience to me.
In addition to that, SWTOR won't appeal to ALL Star Wars fans. It will appeal to Star Wars fans who happen to be PC gamers. That's a much smaller demo than "all Star Wars fans." With all this said...I don't want SWTOR to fail. I hope it's a good game. But I wanted to dispel any notions that its failure will somehow "doom" the industry. That's silly.
Looking at one product i exactly what a lot of investors did when WoW became very popular. They looked at its success and its type of MMO gameplay design and decided, based on that one product, to go the route of WoW-styled themepark MMO's for years at a stretch.
In fact, I can safely say that if WoW hadn't existed, themepark MMO's wouldn't have been as abundant as they are today and sandbox MMO's and other non-themepark MMO's wouldn't have ended up at the fringe as they are now.
As for GW2 or SWTOR or AA: if any MMO can attract and keep millions of MMO gamers, naturally it'll get the attention of investors, that's simple logic.
However, I can recall an article of a while back that a lot of investors and other gaming companies are watching SWTOR with more than the usual attention to see how it'll do. Why? For the simple reason that it'll be a testing ground because of its prominent game company, the big budget, a big publisher and one of the most important IP's, this specific combination of those 4 elements is what has the industry watching this title more than other MMO titles.
Yah I agree with everything you posted. I also agree that investors are likely watching SWTOR closely. At the same time though, their attention can easily shift based on what happens when other games are released.
I think it depends on players. Some odd games are out there with your name on it - that you never heard of yet, maybe? It does not have to be a well known mmorpg or a future mmorpg or an "One mmorpg to rule them all..."
"Three MMOs for the Hardcore Gamer-kings under the sky,
Seven for the MMO fans in their halls of stone,
Nine for the Casual Gamer doomed to try try try,
One for the MMO god on his dark throne
In the Land of MMO where gankers lie.
One MMO to rule them all, One MMO to find them,
One MMO to bring them all and in the darkness bind them
In the Land of MMO where gankers lie."
SWTOR is definitely not the last hope of MMOs. As long as their is money to be made, MMOs will be made. And games like Lotro, Eve, Aion, Rift are making money. Just because the advanced gamer doesn't see them as successes because they didn't "kill WoW" doesn't mean they didn't make money. MMOs are mostly businesses, not pissing contests. If it makes money, it's a success.
Yes SWTOR is an MMO riding on Star Wars IP. the same way WoW is an MMO riding on Warcraft IP. And Game of Thrones and True Blood are dramatic TV shows riding on the Game of Thrones and True Blood original book IP. Changing the format for the IP does not necessarily degrade it. Putting Star Wars into the format of a theme park MMO with some sandbox elements doesn't necessarily degrade Star Wars. And I can definitely enjoy a theme park MMO with some sandbox elements if it's done right.
This will be a test on adding more RPG inside of MMOs. There are different opinions on what makes an RPG. Is it having stats? Levelling up and spending ponits? Having a home base to return to? I think the core of an RPG is creating a character and developing that characters personality by making pivotal choices in a long cohesive engaging story. With current technology you can't make an RPG out of a sandbox MMO. SWTOR will be without a doubt the most RPG MMO created so far. If it succeeds then we'll probably see more RPG-MMORPGs.
IMO I believe the Genre fails if GW2 fails (which i'm pretty damn sure it won't, I've been in love with the Guild Wars set up and world for about 7 years now) and for some reason... The Secret World also fails, which I don't see happening. So honestly SWTOR isn't the last hope.
Look, I think GW2 is going to be pure awesome, I really do, but it does not have a snow balls chance in hell of pulling the kind of number that TOR can potentially do. Ask the average console player who Anet is and they will shrug. Ask them about Guild Wars and unless they are fairly into the MMO scene they might shrug too. Now ask console gamers if they have heard of BIoware....oh hells yes, Dragon Age, Mass Effect, etc. Ask old PC RPG fans and they will remember Baldur's gate, Planscape Torment, KOTOR, etc, then ask a room full of strangers if they have heard of Star Wars... you get the point.
There has been at least one article and statements from the heads of publishers saying they are keenly watching SWTOR while I am sure in a little corner of their eye they are maybe watching Guild Wars as well. TOR is the only game coming to the market that can possibly pull WOW numbers and show that a good studio with a big brand and a polished game can make magic. If it fails utterly those watchful publishers are not likely to make and investment like that in an MMO again.
From a business perspective TOR is a game changer one way or another.
This is just an opinion from the OP . I disagree 100%.
The genre is already dead with respect to it's original roots and has just become something of a cash cow hybrid from where it's root were initially born.
Until real gameplay returns, and Auction Houses/ Mailboxes / Insta Travel / Insta quest and level are removed what we have now are games which take little to master and are not worth playing. (Bar a couple of gems).
Why does everyone seem to think that old MMORPGs did not have insta-travel?
UO, which is normally held up as the "golden child" of the old MMORPGs had the most permissive instant travel system ever implemented. You could literally mark a rune ANYWHERE in the game and then use that rune (which was a permanent item) to instantly transport back to there later.
There was no cap on the number of runes you could have either.
IMO I believe the Genre fails if GW2 fails (which i'm pretty damn sure it won't, I've been in love with the Guild Wars set up and world for about 7 years now) and for some reason... The Secret World also fails, which I don't see happening. So honestly SWTOR isn't the last hope.
Look, I think GW2 is going to be pure awesome, I really do, but it does not have a snow balls chance in hell of pulling the kind of number that TOR can potentially do. Ask the average console player who Anet is and they will shrug. Ask them about Guild Wars and unless they are fairly into the MMO scene they might shrug too. Now ask console gamers if they have heard of BIoware....oh hells yes, Dragon Age, Mass Effect, etc. Ask old PC RPG fans and they will remember Baldur's gate, Planscape Torment, KOTOR, etc, then ask a room full of strangers if they have heard of Star Wars... you get the point.
There has been at least one article and statements from the heads of publishers saying they are keenly watching SWTOR while I am sure in a little corner of their eye they are maybe watching Guild Wars as well. TOR is the only game coming to the market that can possibly pull WOW numbers and show that a good studio with a big brand and a polished game can make magic. If it fails utterly those watchful publishers are not likely to make and investment like that in an MMO again.
From a business perspective TOR is a game changer one way or another.
SWTOR will never pull WoW numbers... the numbers WoW pulled was pretty much a fluke when all the planets and star aligned. Also WoW has GLOBAL marketing, something that very few MMOs if any can claim. I highly doubt that SWTOR will reach over 4 mill and I'm being generous but when the hype is over I highly doubt they'll maintain over 2 mill subs if that. Unlike WoW whose had almost zero competition, SWTOR will have a whole slew of competition. GW2, WoW, TSW, ArcheAge, and any other I don't know about to include some might be pulled into Neverwinter not to mention Titan when it releases.
SWTOR is simply the first game on the scene in a shift in MMO direction plain and simple. A lot of other MMOs who have been in the works way before any detailed info of SWTOR was released are also heading in the same direction as SWTOR, it's not a leader in any fashion.
Anyways your statement about how nobody knows ANet while everyone knows Bioware makes me curious to see if SWTOR will be the new MMO daycare center.
Please note; I did not read the actual post, I only read the title.
That's silly. If SW:ToR fails, it will only prove that Bioware shouldn't make an mmorpg, or that you shouldn't make a primarily themepark Star Wars mmorpg. There's are several other mmorpg coming out in the near future that can show that mmorpg is a very viable gaming genre.
Prime: Battle for Dominus - could be a great hit in the sandbox sub-genre. The Secret World - could be a great hit in the non-linear ARPG/themepark sub-genre. Rift - already a hit in the straight up classic themepark sub-genre. Defiance - could be a great hit in the mmofps sub-genre (though the Scyfy tie-in both worries and excites me a little bit).
There is plenty of hope out there if you want to see it.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
SWTOR will never pull WoW numbers... the numbers WoW pulled was pretty much a fluke when all the planets and star aligned. Also WoW has GLOBAL marketing, something that very few MMOs if any can claim. I highly doubt that SWTOR will reach over 4 mill and I'm being generous but when the hype is over I highly doubt they'll maintain over 2 mill subs if that. Unlike WoW whose had almost zero competition, SWTOR will have a whole slew of competition. GW2, WoW, TSW, ArcheAge, and any other I don't know about to include some might be pulled into Neverwinter not to mention Titan when it releases.
SWTOR is simply the first game on the scene in a shift in MMO direction plain and simple. A lot of other MMOs who have been in the works way before any detailed info of SWTOR was released are also heading in the same direction as SWTOR, it's not a leader in any fashion.
Anyways your statement about how nobody knows ANet while everyone knows Bioware makes me curious to see if SWTOR will be the new MMO daycare center.
Of course it can't pull WoW numbers, there are only about six million MMO US/EU players in this market, total.
Trust me, within a month of opening day we'll see people declaring the game is a total failure if it doesn't crack 2 mill. But then, cracking two mill would actually be a big surprise in a market where 75% of the available players are already playing the Behemoth.
But then we know some of the players here would still declare it a failure if it pulled five mill, because they've already pre-declared DOOM while furiously rubbing their crystal balls and turning over their tarot cards.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Comments
The game is a fail already for me. I'm not interested in playing WOW with a Star Wars skin. From what i gathered, this is exactly what this game is gonna be, a glorified WOW clone with a Star Wars skin.
Your gathering skills seem quite weak.
I completely disagree. How can our last hope be something that really doesn't offer anything new, and isn't expected to change or advance the genre, but only be popular. GW2 is closer to a 'last hope'. Though even that is bollocks, because no matter what the genre will still be here as long as there are people to play the games.
Personally, I'm waiting to hear more info on Class3 and Class4 .
Don't you think that maybe MMORPGs as a definition has changed? I remember having great fondness of MMOs and used to get into them quite regularly. Not so much these days, I've been more inclided to play co-op games these days.
Ha, some games I feel that waiting for a dungeon while doing quests is akin to waiting in a lobby of Call of Duty getting your custom class ready. A glorifed waiting room. Ah well, maybe bigger isn't better any more?
I think if TOR fails, it will be the end of established IP's as MMO's but not MMO's in general. Funcom is done with established IP's. Smedley says SOE is done with them(See SWG and DCUO and the constant issues with those IP holders). I'm not a fan of IP's because you have non-video game people messing with things they simply do not understand. You get stupid decisions that hamstring the game for the sake of their image and reputation. Unfinished or delayed content to fit in with a movie release. Fun, fans and quality is always number 2 with these games.
I feel TOR will be fine. It has something SWG did not. A strong established game publisher to push back any suggestions of NGE if TOR does not have a million subscribers. The Star Wars IP doesn't mean what it did 5 years ago. Its not going to carry a game to success. The gameplay has to do that.
My above statement is made assuming TOR is $15 a month. I have this itch that it will be $20 which is way above my comfort level so they will lose at least 1 sub before launch.
Yup, a monthly fee above $15 is going to kill off subscribers, but with it being EA who knows what horrible shite they'll pull... they've not exactly covered themselves with glory over the pre-orders. Hopefully they'll realise this and not be too greedy.
The RP part were taken over by Action many years ago mate (about the time when EQ2 and WoW was released). This game is not a MMORPG. It's a MMOAG. Very few companies got the courage to try to bring back the RP part.
Ofcourse it wont be the end of the genre if SWTOR fails, it will simply mean that the devs had a wrong approach to developing MMO's, that's it. Other companies will learn and adapt.
I guess this will be one of those games where you will feel very lonely, despite passing by hundreds of players an hour.
I watched and loved the SW movies, but this game isnt interesting to me at all. It doesnt look any good to me. Im waiting for Diablo 3, screw MMO's!
Why put your chips all into one game, then go and say doom and gloom if it fails. I personally think Mmos will slowly add more to the themepark area of its games, but also we should realize the mmo general market likes themepark games. I personally see SW; and guild wars 2 being huge games once they are both out. I hope next blizzard mmo is a succes also, more variety is always great for the genre, and hopefully a step in a good direction to the games we play.
I don't hope this game fails. I think it's going to do fine. I just think the OP's doom and gloom is a bit silly.
My theme song.
Actually, Both ANet and BW stated that they wanted to bring the RPG back into MMORPG, and the way they intended to do that was the same, by introducing more story and context to questing and missions instead of them being barely camouflaged task lists.
Then wat are you doing on an MMO site if current MMO's don't interest you?
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I think it depends on players. Some odd games are out there with your name on it - that you never heard of yet, maybe? It does not have to be a well known mmorpg or a future mmorpg or an "One mmorpg to rule them all..."
http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1014633/Classic-Game-Postmortem
Do you honestly think that investors are too dumb to separate the success/failure of one product from the success/failure of an entire industry (MMORPG in this case)?
If SWTOR utterly falls on its face, but WoW, GW2, and Archeage are all successful, resulting in the overall industry continuing to grow; the MMORPG industry will be FAR from dead. In fact, what will happen is investors will shy away from games that are "like" SWTOR. Sci-fi, WoW-model themepark, etc. But they will more readily invest in games that are "like" GW2, Archeage etc...
On the other hand, if SWTOR falls on its face AND the other games in the industry do poorly, investors will see that the market is shrinking and back off. Industry perspective here. Looking at one product is like tunnelvision.
Also, I think you are being a bit prejudiced about GW2. Why do you think it's not going to have as big a fan base as SWTOR? There seems to be a misguided belief that GW2 is somehow going to only appeal to a niche of people. I really see no evidence of this.
I've seen two polls on this site asking "what game are you most hyped for" and in each case, GW2 was the top choice. Also, Guild Wars sold over 6 million boxes (including all campaigns, so over 1 million players). GW2 will appeal to an even broader demographic. That doesn't sound like a "niche" audience to me.
In addition to that, SWTOR won't appeal to ALL Star Wars fans. It will appeal to Star Wars fans who happen to be PC gamers. That's a much smaller demo than "all Star Wars fans." With all this said...I don't want SWTOR to fail. I hope it's a good game. But I wanted to dispel any notions that its failure will somehow "doom" the industry. That's silly.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
IMO I believe the Genre fails if GW2 fails (which i'm pretty damn sure it won't, I've been in love with the Guild Wars set up and world for about 7 years now) and for some reason... The Secret World also fails, which I don't see happening. So honestly SWTOR isn't the last hope.
This is just an opinion from the OP . I disagree 100%.
The genre is already dead with respect to it's original roots and has just become something of a cash cow hybrid from where it's root were initially born.
Until real gameplay returns, and Auction Houses/ Mailboxes / Insta Travel / Insta quest and level are removed what we have now are games which take little to master and are not worth playing. (Bar a couple of gems).
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Sorcery must persist, the future is the Citadel
Looking at one product i exactly what a lot of investors did when WoW became very popular. They looked at its success and its type of MMO gameplay design and decided, based on that one product, to go the route of WoW-styled themepark MMO's for years at a stretch.
In fact, I can safely say that if WoW hadn't existed, themepark MMO's wouldn't have been as abundant as they are today and sandbox MMO's and other non-themepark MMO's wouldn't have ended up at the fringe as they are now.
As for GW2 or SWTOR or AA: if any MMO can attract and keep millions of MMO gamers, naturally it'll get the attention of investors, that's simple logic.
However, I can recall an article of a while back that a lot of investors and other gaming companies are watching SWTOR with more than the usual attention to see how it'll do. Why? For the simple reason that it'll be a testing ground because of its prominent game company, the big budget, a big publisher and one of the most important IP's, this specific combination of those 4 elements is what has the industry watching this title more than other MMO titles.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I also remember in that article there were quite a few summations that TOR's success and/or failure could have a lasting impact on the genre's future. That's coming from actual devs at many large studios.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Yeah, and here's one from Mark Jacobs stating that if WAR fails it could be very bad for the industry, which I think someone may have already posted in this thread, but here it is again: http://onlinegamesareanichemarket.wordpress.com/2008/09/03/what-does-wars-success-or-failure-mean-for-the-mmorpg-market/.
It was BS then and it's BS now. It's all based on a lot of speculation and the belief that game X (substitute WAR or SWTOR) is somehow the only game with any real chance of success. WAR failed pretty solidly and yet MMORPGs continue to be made and new MMORPG projects continue to be undertaken.
SWTOR failing alone will not do much damage to the MMORPG market. On the other hand, if SWTOR fails AND all the other big up and comers (GW2, AA, TSW, WoD) fail...then yeah that's very bad for the market/industry.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
Yah I agree with everything you posted. I also agree that investors are likely watching SWTOR closely. At the same time though, their attention can easily shift based on what happens when other games are released.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
"Three MMOs for the Hardcore Gamer-kings under the sky,
Seven for the MMO fans in their halls of stone,
Nine for the Casual Gamer doomed to try try try,
One for the MMO god on his dark throne
In the Land of MMO where gankers lie.
One MMO to rule them all, One MMO to find them,
One MMO to bring them all and in the darkness bind them
In the Land of MMO where gankers lie."
SWTOR is definitely not the last hope of MMOs. As long as their is money to be made, MMOs will be made. And games like Lotro, Eve, Aion, Rift are making money. Just because the advanced gamer doesn't see them as successes because they didn't "kill WoW" doesn't mean they didn't make money. MMOs are mostly businesses, not pissing contests. If it makes money, it's a success.
Yes SWTOR is an MMO riding on Star Wars IP. the same way WoW is an MMO riding on Warcraft IP. And Game of Thrones and True Blood are dramatic TV shows riding on the Game of Thrones and True Blood original book IP. Changing the format for the IP does not necessarily degrade it. Putting Star Wars into the format of a theme park MMO with some sandbox elements doesn't necessarily degrade Star Wars. And I can definitely enjoy a theme park MMO with some sandbox elements if it's done right.
This will be a test on adding more RPG inside of MMOs. There are different opinions on what makes an RPG. Is it having stats? Levelling up and spending ponits? Having a home base to return to? I think the core of an RPG is creating a character and developing that characters personality by making pivotal choices in a long cohesive engaging story. With current technology you can't make an RPG out of a sandbox MMO. SWTOR will be without a doubt the most RPG MMO created so far. If it succeeds then we'll probably see more RPG-MMORPGs.
Look, I think GW2 is going to be pure awesome, I really do, but it does not have a snow balls chance in hell of pulling the kind of number that TOR can potentially do. Ask the average console player who Anet is and they will shrug. Ask them about Guild Wars and unless they are fairly into the MMO scene they might shrug too. Now ask console gamers if they have heard of BIoware....oh hells yes, Dragon Age, Mass Effect, etc. Ask old PC RPG fans and they will remember Baldur's gate, Planscape Torment, KOTOR, etc, then ask a room full of strangers if they have heard of Star Wars... you get the point.
There has been at least one article and statements from the heads of publishers saying they are keenly watching SWTOR while I am sure in a little corner of their eye they are maybe watching Guild Wars as well. TOR is the only game coming to the market that can possibly pull WOW numbers and show that a good studio with a big brand and a polished game can make magic. If it fails utterly those watchful publishers are not likely to make and investment like that in an MMO again.
From a business perspective TOR is a game changer one way or another.
Why does everyone seem to think that old MMORPGs did not have insta-travel?
UO, which is normally held up as the "golden child" of the old MMORPGs had the most permissive instant travel system ever implemented. You could literally mark a rune ANYWHERE in the game and then use that rune (which was a permanent item) to instantly transport back to there later.
There was no cap on the number of runes you could have either.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
SWTOR will never pull WoW numbers... the numbers WoW pulled was pretty much a fluke when all the planets and star aligned. Also WoW has GLOBAL marketing, something that very few MMOs if any can claim. I highly doubt that SWTOR will reach over 4 mill and I'm being generous but when the hype is over I highly doubt they'll maintain over 2 mill subs if that. Unlike WoW whose had almost zero competition, SWTOR will have a whole slew of competition. GW2, WoW, TSW, ArcheAge, and any other I don't know about to include some might be pulled into Neverwinter not to mention Titan when it releases.
SWTOR is simply the first game on the scene in a shift in MMO direction plain and simple. A lot of other MMOs who have been in the works way before any detailed info of SWTOR was released are also heading in the same direction as SWTOR, it's not a leader in any fashion.
Anyways your statement about how nobody knows ANet while everyone knows Bioware makes me curious to see if SWTOR will be the new MMO daycare center.
Please note; I did not read the actual post, I only read the title.
That's silly. If SW:ToR fails, it will only prove that Bioware shouldn't make an mmorpg, or that you shouldn't make a primarily themepark Star Wars mmorpg. There's are several other mmorpg coming out in the near future that can show that mmorpg is a very viable gaming genre.
Prime: Battle for Dominus - could be a great hit in the sandbox sub-genre.
The Secret World - could be a great hit in the non-linear ARPG/themepark sub-genre.
Rift - already a hit in the straight up classic themepark sub-genre.
Defiance - could be a great hit in the mmofps sub-genre (though the Scyfy tie-in both worries and excites me a little bit).
There is plenty of hope out there if you want to see it.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Of course it can't pull WoW numbers, there are only about six million MMO US/EU players in this market, total.
Trust me, within a month of opening day we'll see people declaring the game is a total failure if it doesn't crack 2 mill. But then, cracking two mill would actually be a big surprise in a market where 75% of the available players are already playing the Behemoth.
But then we know some of the players here would still declare it a failure if it pulled five mill, because they've already pre-declared DOOM while furiously rubbing their crystal balls and turning over their tarot cards.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.