I think we should legalize cocaine. We can't prevent it. There will always be people buying it from shady dealers that employ third world peasants to pack and distribute it.
Since we can't beat it and people are going to buy it anyway. Why not profit from it. It's a win win
Let's not start the "Well RMT is here to stay arguments". So is genital herpes. It doesn't mean It's a good thing and we all should get with the program
The reasons RMT was banned in the past and the reason cocaine is banned are vastly different.
RMT was banned in the past simply because it wasn't what the developers initially intended. It doesn't necessarily mean that the act of selling virtual goods is bad or harmful. In fact, its pretty much irrelevant in a mostly pve game.
Cocaine is illegal because it kills people. Once real money transactions start resulting in the loss of lives feel free to bring that crap back to the forums, but until then your feeble arguments hold no weight.
Way to completely miss the point. His point was just because something is not completely preventable and some portion of the players will find a way to get away with it is not justifiable reason to change the rules and abandon attempts to enforce them to the degree where you can.
If you prefer this example, in baseball some percentage of the players will try to get away with using "corked" batts or throwing "spitballs". Some portion of those players will end up getting away with that. It does not, however, follow that baseball should change the rules of the game to legitimize such activity simply because they are not able to enforce it with 100 percent effectiveness.
Well I hope you don't plan playing any games in the near future cus all games will soon have RMT of some kind. Move with it or stay behind.
Not all Cash Shops affect game play, or offer high end items you can only get through buying from them. Pay to Win is the worst form of Cash Shop. When Blizzard offered their original Cash Shop for WoW, it contained only vanity items and mounts. That's fine. When a Cash Shop starts including items that make playing inconsequential, that's bad. Not all Cash Shops are bad, just the ones you have to use in order to stay competative. I'm not sure Activision-Blizzard knows the difference.
I agree with the poster who said that there should only be one avenue of true advancement: playing the game. I don't mind shortcuts or multiple avenues to fun, but why make a game and put effort into the content if you're just going to shoot yourself in the foot by selling items that make that content inconsequential?
Well I hope you don't plan playing any games in the near future cus all games will soon have RMT of some kind. Move with it or stay behind.
Not all Cash Shops affect game play, or offer high end items you can only get through buying from them. Pay to Win is the worst form of Cash Shop. When Blizzard offered their original Cash Shop for WoW, it contained only vanity items and mounts. That's fine. When a Cash Shop starts including items that make playing inconsequential, that's bad. Not all Cash Shops are bad, just the ones you have to use in order to stay competative. I'm not sure Activision-Blizzard knows the difference.
I agree with the poster who said that there should only be one avenue of true advancement: playing the game. I don't mind shortcuts or multiple avenues to fun, but why make a game and put effort into the content if you're just going to shoot yourself in the foot by selling items that make that content inconsequential?
Agreed. That they sell halloween costumes and similar stuff in the RMT shop hurts no-one.
The problem starts when they sells stuff that is actually useful. I refuse to pay for more than box sales and monthly fees in a P2P game.
On the Legal vs Illigal argument it is a good move, RMT is a plague and sometimes you have to fight fire with fire.
Insuring that players will not be scammed etc. by the sales being under the controll legitimacy and legality is a solid position and argument.
Is it a money grab? Yes it is, but then again Blizzard is a Business venture, they produce and sell and provide entertainment services and products, do you pay ofr you Cable/Satelite TV? maybe Songs you listen to? A cell phone? Your internet connection? Well why not for this entertainment medium?
Could all this have been avoided? Yes it could, the game could have been designed in such a way as to not create a need for people to exchange or sell said items.
How many other games have you played and you did not need the need to go on Ebay and buy an in game item for? Many, almost all... but it seems like one of the marketing points here is that there will be "rare and powerfull" items that will not be available to all, hence, the need for exchange exists.
That being said, there will be an Auction House that does not involve Real Cash too.
And finally,
Pay to win? Win what? Are you saying that if I buy this game I will not be able to finish its story unless I buy some items from some other player in either AH's?
No of cource not, I am sure everyone will be able to play the game, and Win the game (bring it to its conclusion) without using any AH at anyone time.
So that really means that, using the AH is really highly optional and an additional way to offer an alternative additional source of entertainment to some people.
Just because an AH is present, that does not force anyone to actually use it for in game gold or Real Cash.
I Won both Diablo and Diablo II without ever having to go to Ebay and buy any items what soever.
And I will win this one too, without the need for any items from the AH. So for me at least, I know I will not be using this feature and as a result, I really do not mind that Blizzard incorporates it in a game, because, at least, it will be a good measure against RMT, which is a plague.
That is the cherry on the top.
Cheers!
- Duke Suraknar - Order of the Silver Star, OSS
ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard
Me and at least two of my friends won't buy the game because of that. You can throw arguments around as much as you want, RMT is not supposed to be a part of the actual game, in no way.
It's game ethics, not economics, that are my reasons for denying Blizzard my money.
RMT will end a game being a game for the game's sake, and gaming.
Ultimately, no matter the sugar coating and smoke screening blown about, the "game" will be founded on an accounting process that punches straight out of the game into real life and bank accounts.
But I'm sure the Accountants won't mind, so long as number in an Excel spreadsheet are to their liking.
How will the rich guy be on top if he cant buy any items?
Unless You're talking about making every nice item bound on acquire/pickup, how will You stop rich people from buying gear from others(E-bay, D2jsp)?
As for loosing a duel to person who bought items on RMAH - how will You know he/she bought them? How this is different from getting those items via trading?
Item trading has been a big part of my gameplay in D2.So no i dont like the solution of bound on pickup/aquire items.RMAH isnt the solution either though.They just legalise the E-bay,D2jsp business as you said.It isnt the solution to the actual problem. I am surprised people cant see this.
Well, I'm with others who cannot stand Really Moronic Transactions in any form. The games that encourage it. And the players who fall for it.
Seriously, I only play games where it is "illegal", and if I come across a player that admits to it, I'll refuse to have anything to do with him or her.
Rift has no RMT and given the pace that Trion is developing that game I'll be happy for quite some time. If there comes a time when there is no MMO without RMT... well, then that's it for me. I could always take up table-top gaming again.
Hehe. Imagine playing AD&D and a player pulls out his wallet, hands over $20 to the DM and gets a sword of decapitation +5. Yeah, that's real fun. *rolls eyes*
I think alot of player's these days have never had any real experiances with table top games, sad really...
your AD&D analogy rings so true lol.
Hey I'll give you 10 real bucks for Boardwalk
The analogy is partially irrelevant.
I play table top with a random bunch of folks I do not know? No way, we play because we want to be together. The chores of setting up a table top game is frustration if it is played in a bar, with random people who come and go whenever they please.
With a bunch of friends, there is no point in getting the sword of $5.
You make no sense.And you dont get the point. And your example here is completely inacurate.This is a game.If i want to compete with other players,i would like it to be in fair ways.Doesnt matter if my enemy is better or worse.
Do athletes that lose a gold medal to a milisec by a drugged player feel happy about it? I dont think so.Its the same here.People should not get stronger in game, by using $$$$.
What is fair? So long as the rules are clearly laid down, and everyone has access to each tool, it is fair.
Do you cry foul if someone richer than you outbids you in an auction?
Everyone has the option to use the same RMAH, or in-game AH. Everyone sees the same AH listing, and enjoys the same rights in bidding, selling. Everyone has access to the same selection of classes. Everything is fair.
That is fairness. That is enough, and that is really not necessary in a game. I do not mind fighting someone who has better chances to beat me in a game, that is another form of challenge, and so long as I do not need to pay a heavy fine for losing, I do not mind if I end up defeated or not.
Its a game, voluntary game.
So is baseball....so is the Olympics. Want you aren't getting is that this is an arguement about what the rules of the game SHOULD be.
For example, if you're kid plays Little League.... you aren't going to be happy if some parent comes along and says well I should be able to buy my kids team extra at bats during an inning or hire a AAA pitcher to pitch for them so they have a higher chance of winning.
Chances are you are going to say "That's not what this game and this League is about. That's not how we want to play here and that's not what we want to teach our kids about sportsmanship and competition, take that somewhere else."
It depends on what you want to get out of a game.
If you want fairness, so that everyone has the "same chance of winning" as in a sport, you regulate what each player eat, how much each one weighs, what cloth they wear, what gum they chew, so that none has that tiny bit of edge over the other.
If you just want a game, a challenge, or time killing, who cares if that guy who beats me use a racket that is make of 1% diamond, 25% space material, and enchanted by the pope himself.
Me and at least two of my friends won't buy the game because of that. You can throw arguments around as much as you want, RMT is not supposed to be a part of the actual game, in no way.
It's game ethics, not economics, that are my reasons for denying Blizzard my money.
Blizz will lose some people who, on moral ground refuse to play because of RMAH
Blizz will gain some people who, hoping RMAH can defeat the sweat shops, joins the game on moral grounds.
Blizz will retain the majority who, do not care for this torrent in a tea cup.
How will the rich guy be on top if he cant buy any items?
Unless You're talking about making every nice item bound on acquire/pickup, how will You stop rich people from buying gear from others(E-bay, D2jsp)?
As for loosing a duel to person who bought items on RMAH - how will You know he/she bought them? How this is different from getting those items via trading?
Item trading has been a big part of my gameplay in D2.So no i dont like the solution of bound on pickup/aquire items.RMAH isnt the solution either though.They just legalise the E-bay,D2jsp business as you said.It isnt the solution to the actual problem. I am surprised people cant see this.
Agree, RMAH is not ideal, but as far as I can see, it will not provide additional ammo to the gold/gear seller sites. More likely than not, it allows millions of normal players to compete with them, reducing the gains for these sellers. So from a pragmatic point of view, RMAH will not introduce more harm.
Ethics aside, I see no ground to object RMAH. Whether one likes it or not is another issue, which is subjective and not worth arguing.
I can hear all the parents cursing Blizzard now. on the Flip side, thank the heavens I wont have to hear all the kiddies whining for money for that new UBAH sword.
Ethics aside, I see no ground to object RMAH. Whether one likes it or not is another issue, which is subjective and not worth arguing.
It is diminishing my sense of accomplishment and even gameplay itself. If I have to spent grinding a item for 5-10 h or buy it for 10$ (which I can earn in a fraction of time I need to get item by gameplay) , then both playing or paying is a bad choice.
You might don't understand this opinion or don't agree with it ,but there are many people thinking like that.
So I am not going to buy and play Diablo 3.
Besides FYI almost all thing discussed in this topic , hell even on forums are subjective, if ppl would not discuss or made decision based on subjective thing you would need to close this forum.
How will the rich guy be on top if he cant buy any items?
Unless You're talking about making every nice item bound on acquire/pickup, how will You stop rich people from buying gear from others(E-bay, D2jsp)?
As for loosing a duel to person who bought items on RMAH - how will You know he/she bought them? How this is different from getting those items via trading?
Item trading has been a big part of my gameplay in D2.So no i dont like the solution of bound on pickup/aquire items.RMAH isnt the solution either though.They just legalise the E-bay,D2jsp business as you said.It isnt the solution to the actual problem. I am surprised people cant see this.
Agree, RMAH is not ideal, but as far as I can see, it will not provide additional ammo to the gold/gear seller sites. More likely than not, it allows millions of normal players to compete with them, reducing the gains for these sellers. So from a pragmatic point of view, RMAH will not introduce more harm.
Ethics aside, I see no ground to object RMAH. Whether one likes it or not is another issue, which is subjective and not worth arguing.
The gold sellers don't play by the rules though. They'll always have the edge when it comes to taking advantage of the game's economy. While allowing RMT may give regular players the opportunity to also take part in RMT where they wouldn't before due to it being against the rules, it still does nothing to level the playing field.
Gold sellers will still sweat shop farm 24/7, bot, exploit, spam, scam, hijack accounts, and every other concievable method to make more profit whether it's against the rules or not. If they get banned, they don't care, they use stolen credit cards to open new accounts to keep doing what they're doing.
Competition from regular players could reduce gold sellers gains, but that might also backfire and cause them to behave more agressively in their persuit to meet their quotas.
That's the problem with fighting fire with fire, everyone ends up burnt in the end.
Or they could not cave to the trend and make everything higher end bind on pickup. That would stop it completely and there would be no need for any of this.
All this is doing is putting us on an eventual path of a developer selling us a car with no tires. When he eventually chooses to sell us the tires we will then thank him for it? Not me. I will vote with my dollars. I will not buy D3.
Yes, I realize this will have no effect on blizzard and I could probably play with little to no impact from the RMT. it isn't so much about this game but whats down the road. 10 years ago no developer would have attempted this. They continue to move us closer and closer to the pay to win system where they can simply maximize profits and we pay more for less.
I think we should legalize cocaine. We can't prevent it. There will always be people buying it from shady dealers that employ third world peasants to pack and distribute it.
Since we can't beat it and people are going to buy it anyway. Why not profit from it. It's a win win
Let's not start the "Well RMT is here to stay arguments". So is genital herpes. It doesn't mean It's a good thing and we should all get with the program
Now you're being ridiculous, last i checked RMT doesn't send people to the hospital.
The point was since you missed it
Just because something exist and you can't eliminate it. Doesn't make it a good idea to legalize and profit from it, when It clearly was a bad idea, back when it was illegal.
And before somebody starts the argument how it's a smart business move. Unless you are a shareholder.. I'm going to politely have to tell you to keep your yapper shut.
When did it clearly become a bad idea? Ah i see because you say its a bad idea.
basically as i see it there are 2 types that dislike blizzards AH.
type (A) that state they find fun in killing monsters for loot and though no one forces them to use the AH, They basically admit the game will be ruined for them as they are too weak willed just ignore the AH and will wind up using it.
type (B) those that have to have better equiepment then the majority for some Elitist sense of accomplishment or Superiority. Though these players may only play solo, or with friends/guild members that never use the AH, the fact Joe blow they may never run into can buy the same sword they did 100 boss runs to get ruins the game for them, As their luck of the loot drop or simply insane amount of time to spend no longer makes them Elite.
Any PvP'er that states equipe makes them the best once again boils it down to not skill at pvp, but simply luck of the loot drop roll or mass amount of time to waste. As such perhaps perhaps they are better off ranting in a PvP game like Darkfall.
In the end of the day I'lll buy D3 hopefully it will be a fun game to play, monsters, loot, excitement etc. i doubt i'll use the AH to buy anything as i'd rather just get it the old fashioned way. i don't feel threatened or forced by a Ah button. Nore do i feel that my accomplishments are less if unknown player X has better items then i that they got off the Ah. In fact if they buy some monk gear thats useless to my barbarian from me all the better.
I do understand not everyone plays the same way. I like getting items the old fashion way, others may well want to buy the uber items to kill monsters faster and feel more special. if D3's system works for both play styles all the better. I'm not like some here, saying theres only one right way to play the game ie "My way" and that all other ways are clearly bad ideas. I play for fun not to force my play style on others. Since nothing forces the AH on anyone and since it takes the power away from the Illegal gold seller gouging the players and puts it in the hands of the average player that would generally be happy to sell items for a few bucks to make up for the cost of the game rather then the Illegals trying make a living off of it I consider it a Win / Win
Failing to understand people and why they play is a fault that lies with you and your narrow view points rather than those you aim your comments at. Your post reeks with ignorance that I don't even know where to begin. I guess we can start with how you categorize everybody against this into two categories, based on your own made up stereotypes. Does that even seem intelligent to you?
I think we should legalize cocaine. We can't prevent it. There will always be people buying it from shady dealers that employ third world peasants to pack and distribute it.
Since we can't beat it and people are going to buy it anyway. Why not profit from it. It's a win win
Let's not start the "Well RMT is here to stay arguments". So is genital herpes. It doesn't mean It's a good thing and we should all get with the program
Now you're being ridiculous, last i checked RMT doesn't send people to the hospital.
The point was since you missed it
Just because something exist and you can't eliminate it. Doesn't make it a good idea to legalize and profit from it, when It clearly was a bad idea, back when it was illegal.
And before somebody starts the argument how it's a smart business move. Unless you are a shareholder.. I'm going to politely have to tell you to keep your yapper shut.
When did it clearly become a bad idea? Ah i see because you say its a bad idea.
basically as i see it there are 2 types that dislike blizzards AH.
type (A) that state they find fun in killing monsters for loot and though no one forces them to use the AH, They basically admit the game will be ruined for them as they are too weak willed just ignore the AH and will wind up using it.
type (B) those that have to have better equiepment then the majority for some Elitist sense of accomplishment or Superiority. Though these players may only play solo, or with friends/guild members that never use the AH, the fact Joe blow they may never run into can buy the same sword they did 100 boss runs to get ruins the game for them, As their luck of the loot drop or simply insane amount of time to spend no longer makes them Elite.
Any PvP'er that states equipe makes them the best once again boils it down to not skill at pvp, but simply luck of the loot drop roll or mass amount of time to waste. As such perhaps perhaps they are better off ranting in a PvP game like Darkfall.
In the end of the day I'lll buy D3 hopefully it will be a fun game to play, monsters, loot, excitement etc. i doubt i'll use the AH to buy anything as i'd rather just get it the old fashioned way. i don't feel threatened or forced by a Ah button. Nore do i feel that my accomplishments are less if unknown player X has better items then i that they got off the Ah. In fact if they buy some monk gear thats useless to my barbarian from me all the better.
I do understand not everyone plays the same way. I like getting items the old fashion way, others may well want to buy the uber items to kill monsters faster and feel more special. if D3's system works for both play styles all the better. I'm not like some here, saying theres only one right way to play the game ie "My way" and that all other ways are clearly bad ideas. I play for fun not to force my play style on others. Since nothing forces the AH on anyone and since it takes the power away from the Illegal gold seller gouging the players and puts it in the hands of the average player that would generally be happy to sell items for a few bucks to make up for the cost of the game rather then the Illegals trying make a living off of it I consider it a Win / Win
Failing to understand people and why they play is a fault that lies with you and your narrow view points rather than those you aim your comments at. Your post reeks with ignorance that I don't even know where to begin. I guess we can start with how you categorize everybody against this into two categories, based on your own made up stereotypes. Does that even seem intelligent to you?
Let me condense my earlier post into something smaller.
My concerns with RMT aren't really with Diablo 3. I could care less about it. What does concern me a great deal is, if this is successful (and I have no illusions it likely will be), does this then encourage Blizzard and other MMO devs to bring RMT (meaning a true pay to win/deepest pocket wins scenario) to the next big MMO to hit the market? Diablo 3, not being a true MMO and more or less a multiplayer game with little to no impact on the hundreds or thousands playing at the same time isn't a big deal.
Now give these money grubbing exec's an idea they can turn a WoW type game with say a reasonable figure of 1 million subs all putting quarters into the slot continuously to get the next uber sword of leetness. It encourages nothing but bad ideas from an end user's point of view.
Is it here to stay? Perhaps. Is it silly to cheer on the game devs who embrace what was once considered a "cheat" so to speak? I think so.
Make everything no drop. Problem solved. Make everything no drop but transferrable among your own toons. Problem solved. You weren't there for the drop and want to give it to a friend. That's too bad.
We live in a I want it now culture. There is no patience by players to wait for their drops. We want everything now. That's all this really is.
How will the rich guy be on top if he cant buy any items?
Unless You're talking about making every nice item bound on acquire/pickup, how will You stop rich people from buying gear from others(E-bay, D2jsp)?
As for loosing a duel to person who bought items on RMAH - how will You know he/she bought them? How this is different from getting those items via trading?
Item trading has been a big part of my gameplay in D2.So no i dont like the solution of bound on pickup/aquire items.RMAH isnt the solution either though.They just legalise the E-bay,D2jsp business as you said.It isnt the solution to the actual problem. I am surprised people cant see this.
Agree, RMAH is not ideal, but as far as I can see, it will not provide additional ammo to the gold/gear seller sites. More likely than not, it allows millions of normal players to compete with them, reducing the gains for these sellers. So from a pragmatic point of view, RMAH will not introduce more harm.
Ethics aside, I see no ground to object RMAH. Whether one likes it or not is another issue, which is subjective and not worth arguing.
Lisxia,
I don't think you grasp some of the subtleties of how Developers work. Leaving the ethical issues aside or even arguements about quality of play there is a strong economic arguement against RMT's (including the Auction Hall) and it has nothing to do with Gold Sellers but how the Development Houses themselves work.
Now a bit of disclosure here. I happen to work for a SaaS provider (which is essentialy what MMO's are). We are in business services rather then the entertainment vertical but the dynamics are quite similar in most regards. A funny thing happens when you move away from the fixed price model. The design meetings start to shift from "How can we improve the product and make it more usefull to users so that we can retain our current customer base and attract more." to "How can we handicap the base product so that people are spurred to buy premiums from us and we can increase our revenues per customer ?."
Now thankfully we just offer different subscription package levels (which expose different functions within our service offerings) and business customers are pretty saavy about tracking thier total expenditures. When you move to the consumer side of things it starts to get really ugly.
When you are working with a RMT model, what invariably happens is that the Developer purposefully sells you an inferior product so that they can turn around and sell that missing functionality back to you at a premium on top of your regular fee. The beauty of it on the Developers side is that most consumers (as opposed to business customers) aren't very good at tracking thier total expenditures. So if they do it in a nickle and dime fashion, alot of consumers percieve it as not a big deal....and if they aren't keeping track of thier entertainment budgets closely...they often don't realize how much more they are actualy spending on the product then with the fixed price model. In no way is this a good deal, economicaly, for the average consumer.
It's a fine line to walk in determining just how much you gimp your base product in order to get that extra revenue stream as you still want people interested enough to want to use your service....but it DEFINATELY is an important design consideration under the RMT model.
Now Diablo is more co-op lobby game then MMO and it's an Auction Hall rather then a straight cash shop...so the effect is probably moderated a bit...but ONLY moderated not eliminated.
I haven't been in any Blizzard design meetings, but unless the AH idea was something litteraly tacked on at the last minute before release, I can tell you with a very high degree of confidence that the core design of the game was modified in some way to make it less fun/attractive for the user unless they made AH transactions. That would have been a strong consideration in order to boost the revenue stream from each customers. I know that because I have been in EXACTLY those sort of meetings myself. Heck, in a good chunk of them I was the guy tasked with determining the feasability (from a technical perspective) of what could be held back from the base product in order to charge extra for it.
According to what I have read from interviews with Blizzard's internal personel, they realized during the development of Diablo III that upon its release it would inevitably draw players away from Blizzards golden child WoW. This would be like shooting yourself in the foot from their stand point. Taking people from their P2P game and releasing a brand new AAA B2P product under another beloved IP the Diablo series. Blizzard retains a gaming model that generates revenue both on box purchase and afterwards and doesn't compete with itself making this the logical conclusion for them.
Having said that, I don't agree with what they are doing with Diablo III for a number of reasons which have been stated and restated again by above posters. Mainly the glaring fact that, although Diablo isn't going to very PvP oriented and my solo play would not be effected, for the most part, it really adds nothing to the game except a way around playing. I never saw the big problem with trading item for item within Diablo II either.
The gold sellers don't play by the rules though. They'll always have the edge when it comes to taking advantage of the game's economy. While allowing RMT may give regular players the opportunity to also take part in RMT where they wouldn't before due to it being against the rules, it still does nothing to level the playing field.
Gold sellers will still sweat shop farm 24/7, bot, exploit, spam, scam, hijack accounts, and every other concievable method to make more profit whether it's against the rules or not. If they get banned, they don't care, they use stolen credit cards to open new accounts to keep doing what they're doing.
Competition from regular players could reduce gold sellers gains, but that might also backfire and cause them to behave more agressively in their persuit to meet their quotas.
That's the problem with fighting fire with fire, everyone ends up burnt in the end.
Gold sellers might have an edge, that is called lower cost of production (labor), but at least Blizz open the door to direct competition, and who knows what will happen. At least they are trying.
Stolen accounts, stolen credit cards, yes that happens, but then what can Blizz do about that? Nothing.
You worry about players turning into money earning monsters, I know that we already have enough professional money earning monsters rampaging every game. Playing fire with fire is dangerous, but sitting still and pretending the world is nice is just as dangerous.
You view my view, and none seems to be nearer to any solid solutions.
I don't think you grasp some of the subtleties of how Developers work. Leaving the ethical issues aside or even arguements about quality of play there is a strong economic arguement against RMT's (including the Auction Hall) and it has nothing to do with Gold Sellers but how the Development Houses themselves work.
Now a bit of disclosure here. I happen to work for a SaaS provider (which is essentialy what MMO's are). We are in business services rather then the entertainment vertical but the dynamics are quite similar in most regards. A funny thing happens when you move away from the fixed price model. The design meetings start to shift from "How can we improve the product and make it more usefull to users so that we can retain our current customer base and attract more." to "How can we handicap the base product so that people are spurred to buy premiums from us and we can increase our revenues per customer ?."
Now thankfully we just offer different subscription package levels (which expose different functions within our service offerings) and business customers are pretty saavy about tracking thier total expenditures. When you move to the consumer side of things it starts to get really ugly.
When you are working with a RMT model, what invariably happens is that the Developer purposefully sells you an inferior product so that they can turn around and sell that missing functionality back to you at a premium on top of your regular fee. The beauty of it on the Developers side is that most consumers (as opposed to business customers) aren't very good at tracking thier total expenditures. So if they do it in a nickle and dime fashion, alot of consumers percieve it as not a big deal....and if they aren't keeping track of thier entertainment budgets closely...they often don't realize how much more they are actualy spending on the product then with the fixed price model. In no way is this a good deal, economicaly, for the average consumer.
It's a fine line to walk in determining just how much you gimp your base product in order to get that extra revenue stream as you still want people interested enough to want to use your service....but it DEFINATELY is an important design consideration under the RMT model.
Now Diablo is more co-op lobby game then MMO and it's an Auction Hall rather then a straight cash shop...so the effect is probably moderated a bit...but ONLY moderated not eliminated.
I haven't been in any Blizzard design meetings, but unless the AH idea was something litteraly tacked on at the last minute before release, I can tell you with a very high degree of confidence that the core design of the game was modified in some way to make it less fun/attractive for the user unless they made AH transactions. That would have been a strong consideration in order to boost the revenue stream from each customers. I know that because I have been in EXACTLY those sort of meetings myself. Heck, in a good chunk of them I was the guy tasked with determining the feasability (from a technical perspective) of what could be held back from the base product in order to charge extra for it.
That REALLY is how the RMT model works.
Thanks for the lecture, I do not care to talk about my credentials, I just want to tell us your ideas are no secret.
You amount to saying, private enterprises are trying to make money, some developers with bigger control over their market share will look longer, others take a shorter perspective. No secret.
The RMT and sub models are so well known, I do not believe any developers will fail to see how and why. It all depends on the developer's vision about his product, its competitiveness, and its control over its market segment to mix and match sub + cash shop to optimise profit, longer or shorter span, as the developer plans.
To the others who seems to be preaching a new religion here: it is stupid to suggest that we try to preach a new behaviour among the consumers trying to shape the producers. We are talking about millions of gamers, 90% of them do not care about reading forums, and the other 10% well most of them read a forum to play, not to unplay. I see D3 as just a game, in which national pride or bushido code of honor is a bit too much here. I just play whatever serve for the moment and move on.
Going this route may end up increasing the amount of spamming, scamming, and account hacking from what we already see plaguing their other games. Also the concept of buying power will end up casting a shadow over whatever legitimacy their PvP arena might have had a chance to get.
This. When real money is involved, how long before people are pointing fingers at Blizzavision over any exploits that come out? What if Duping part 3 is realized? It will have a huge impact on the economy and value of items already bought and sold for high dollar amounts. How will customers react when the only person still making the same money is Blizzavision on transactions and withdrawals? How fast will Blizzavision react? People already blame Blizzavision for the majority of "hacked accounts" warranted or not. When real money is at stake, how will that be handled? Your spam box will runneth over.
I for one will leave this game alone due to legal RMT. If I wanted to make money by selling stuff I would go to ebay or some other site.
Brilliant idea, you need to break the end user agreement when you have an official channel for you to sell your goods. The only reason I can think of is that you are a gold farmer/seller. Nice to have you gone. Then.
Comments
Way to completely miss the point. His point was just because something is not completely preventable and some portion of the players will find a way to get away with it is not justifiable reason to change the rules and abandon attempts to enforce them to the degree where you can.
If you prefer this example, in baseball some percentage of the players will try to get away with using "corked" batts or throwing "spitballs". Some portion of those players will end up getting away with that. It does not, however, follow that baseball should change the rules of the game to legitimize such activity simply because they are not able to enforce it with 100 percent effectiveness.
Not all Cash Shops affect game play, or offer high end items you can only get through buying from them. Pay to Win is the worst form of Cash Shop. When Blizzard offered their original Cash Shop for WoW, it contained only vanity items and mounts. That's fine. When a Cash Shop starts including items that make playing inconsequential, that's bad. Not all Cash Shops are bad, just the ones you have to use in order to stay competative. I'm not sure Activision-Blizzard knows the difference.
I agree with the poster who said that there should only be one avenue of true advancement: playing the game. I don't mind shortcuts or multiple avenues to fun, but why make a game and put effort into the content if you're just going to shoot yourself in the foot by selling items that make that content inconsequential?
Agreed. That they sell halloween costumes and similar stuff in the RMT shop hurts no-one.
The problem starts when they sells stuff that is actually useful. I refuse to pay for more than box sales and monthly fees in a P2P game.
Well, this is a multilateral issue in my eyes.
On the Legal vs Illigal argument it is a good move, RMT is a plague and sometimes you have to fight fire with fire.
Insuring that players will not be scammed etc. by the sales being under the controll legitimacy and legality is a solid position and argument.
Is it a money grab? Yes it is, but then again Blizzard is a Business venture, they produce and sell and provide entertainment services and products, do you pay ofr you Cable/Satelite TV? maybe Songs you listen to? A cell phone? Your internet connection? Well why not for this entertainment medium?
Could all this have been avoided? Yes it could, the game could have been designed in such a way as to not create a need for people to exchange or sell said items.
How many other games have you played and you did not need the need to go on Ebay and buy an in game item for? Many, almost all... but it seems like one of the marketing points here is that there will be "rare and powerfull" items that will not be available to all, hence, the need for exchange exists.
That being said, there will be an Auction House that does not involve Real Cash too.
And finally,
Pay to win? Win what? Are you saying that if I buy this game I will not be able to finish its story unless I buy some items from some other player in either AH's?
No of cource not, I am sure everyone will be able to play the game, and Win the game (bring it to its conclusion) without using any AH at anyone time.
So that really means that, using the AH is really highly optional and an additional way to offer an alternative additional source of entertainment to some people.
Just because an AH is present, that does not force anyone to actually use it for in game gold or Real Cash.
I Won both Diablo and Diablo II without ever having to go to Ebay and buy any items what soever.
And I will win this one too, without the need for any items from the AH. So for me at least, I know I will not be using this feature and as a result, I really do not mind that Blizzard incorporates it in a game, because, at least, it will be a good measure against RMT, which is a plague.
That is the cherry on the top.
Cheers!
Order of the Silver Star, OSS
ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard
Me and at least two of my friends won't buy the game because of that. You can throw arguments around as much as you want, RMT is not supposed to be a part of the actual game, in no way.
It's game ethics, not economics, that are my reasons for denying Blizzard my money.
RMT will end a game being a game for the game's sake, and gaming.
Ultimately, no matter the sugar coating and smoke screening blown about, the "game" will be founded on an accounting process that punches straight out of the game into real life and bank accounts.
But I'm sure the Accountants won't mind, so long as number in an Excel spreadsheet are to their liking.
Wherever you go, there you are.
Item trading has been a big part of my gameplay in D2.So no i dont like the solution of bound on pickup/aquire items.RMAH isnt the solution either though.They just legalise the E-bay,D2jsp business as you said.It isnt the solution to the actual problem. I am surprised people cant see this.
The analogy is partially irrelevant.
I play table top with a random bunch of folks I do not know? No way, we play because we want to be together. The chores of setting up a table top game is frustration if it is played in a bar, with random people who come and go whenever they please.
With a bunch of friends, there is no point in getting the sword of $5.
It depends on what you want to get out of a game.
If you want fairness, so that everyone has the "same chance of winning" as in a sport, you regulate what each player eat, how much each one weighs, what cloth they wear, what gum they chew, so that none has that tiny bit of edge over the other.
If you just want a game, a challenge, or time killing, who cares if that guy who beats me use a racket that is make of 1% diamond, 25% space material, and enchanted by the pope himself.
Blizz will lose some people who, on moral ground refuse to play because of RMAH
Blizz will gain some people who, hoping RMAH can defeat the sweat shops, joins the game on moral grounds.
Blizz will retain the majority who, do not care for this torrent in a tea cup.
Agree, RMAH is not ideal, but as far as I can see, it will not provide additional ammo to the gold/gear seller sites. More likely than not, it allows millions of normal players to compete with them, reducing the gains for these sellers. So from a pragmatic point of view, RMAH will not introduce more harm.
Ethics aside, I see no ground to object RMAH. Whether one likes it or not is another issue, which is subjective and not worth arguing.
I can hear all the parents cursing Blizzard now. on the Flip side, thank the heavens I wont have to hear all the kiddies whining for money for that new UBAH sword.
It is diminishing my sense of accomplishment and even gameplay itself. If I have to spent grinding a item for 5-10 h or buy it for 10$ (which I can earn in a fraction of time I need to get item by gameplay) , then both playing or paying is a bad choice.
You might don't understand this opinion or don't agree with it ,but there are many people thinking like that.
So I am not going to buy and play Diablo 3.
Besides FYI almost all thing discussed in this topic , hell even on forums are subjective, if ppl would not discuss or made decision based on subjective thing you would need to close this forum.
The gold sellers don't play by the rules though. They'll always have the edge when it comes to taking advantage of the game's economy. While allowing RMT may give regular players the opportunity to also take part in RMT where they wouldn't before due to it being against the rules, it still does nothing to level the playing field.
Gold sellers will still sweat shop farm 24/7, bot, exploit, spam, scam, hijack accounts, and every other concievable method to make more profit whether it's against the rules or not. If they get banned, they don't care, they use stolen credit cards to open new accounts to keep doing what they're doing.
Competition from regular players could reduce gold sellers gains, but that might also backfire and cause them to behave more agressively in their persuit to meet their quotas.
That's the problem with fighting fire with fire, everyone ends up burnt in the end.
Or they could not cave to the trend and make everything higher end bind on pickup. That would stop it completely and there would be no need for any of this.
All this is doing is putting us on an eventual path of a developer selling us a car with no tires. When he eventually chooses to sell us the tires we will then thank him for it? Not me. I will vote with my dollars. I will not buy D3.
Yes, I realize this will have no effect on blizzard and I could probably play with little to no impact from the RMT. it isn't so much about this game but whats down the road. 10 years ago no developer would have attempted this. They continue to move us closer and closer to the pay to win system where they can simply maximize profits and we pay more for less.
No thanks.
Failing to understand people and why they play is a fault that lies with you and your narrow view points rather than those you aim your comments at. Your post reeks with ignorance that I don't even know where to begin. I guess we can start with how you categorize everybody against this into two categories, based on your own made up stereotypes. Does that even seem intelligent to you?
Lisxia,
I don't think you grasp some of the subtleties of how Developers work. Leaving the ethical issues aside or even arguements about quality of play there is a strong economic arguement against RMT's (including the Auction Hall) and it has nothing to do with Gold Sellers but how the Development Houses themselves work.
Now a bit of disclosure here. I happen to work for a SaaS provider (which is essentialy what MMO's are). We are in business services rather then the entertainment vertical but the dynamics are quite similar in most regards. A funny thing happens when you move away from the fixed price model. The design meetings start to shift from "How can we improve the product and make it more usefull to users so that we can retain our current customer base and attract more." to "How can we handicap the base product so that people are spurred to buy premiums from us and we can increase our revenues per customer ?."
Now thankfully we just offer different subscription package levels (which expose different functions within our service offerings) and business customers are pretty saavy about tracking thier total expenditures. When you move to the consumer side of things it starts to get really ugly.
When you are working with a RMT model, what invariably happens is that the Developer purposefully sells you an inferior product so that they can turn around and sell that missing functionality back to you at a premium on top of your regular fee. The beauty of it on the Developers side is that most consumers (as opposed to business customers) aren't very good at tracking thier total expenditures. So if they do it in a nickle and dime fashion, alot of consumers percieve it as not a big deal....and if they aren't keeping track of thier entertainment budgets closely...they often don't realize how much more they are actualy spending on the product then with the fixed price model. In no way is this a good deal, economicaly, for the average consumer.
It's a fine line to walk in determining just how much you gimp your base product in order to get that extra revenue stream as you still want people interested enough to want to use your service....but it DEFINATELY is an important design consideration under the RMT model.
Now Diablo is more co-op lobby game then MMO and it's an Auction Hall rather then a straight cash shop...so the effect is probably moderated a bit...but ONLY moderated not eliminated.
I haven't been in any Blizzard design meetings, but unless the AH idea was something litteraly tacked on at the last minute before release, I can tell you with a very high degree of confidence that the core design of the game was modified in some way to make it less fun/attractive for the user unless they made AH transactions. That would have been a strong consideration in order to boost the revenue stream from each customers. I know that because I have been in EXACTLY those sort of meetings myself. Heck, in a good chunk of them I was the guy tasked with determining the feasability (from a technical perspective) of what could be held back from the base product in order to charge extra for it.
That REALLY is how the RMT model works.
According to what I have read from interviews with Blizzard's internal personel, they realized during the development of Diablo III that upon its release it would inevitably draw players away from Blizzards golden child WoW. This would be like shooting yourself in the foot from their stand point. Taking people from their P2P game and releasing a brand new AAA B2P product under another beloved IP the Diablo series. Blizzard retains a gaming model that generates revenue both on box purchase and afterwards and doesn't compete with itself making this the logical conclusion for them.
Having said that, I don't agree with what they are doing with Diablo III for a number of reasons which have been stated and restated again by above posters. Mainly the glaring fact that, although Diablo isn't going to very PvP oriented and my solo play would not be effected, for the most part, it really adds nothing to the game except a way around playing. I never saw the big problem with trading item for item within Diablo II either.
Gold sellers might have an edge, that is called lower cost of production (labor), but at least Blizz open the door to direct competition, and who knows what will happen. At least they are trying.
Stolen accounts, stolen credit cards, yes that happens, but then what can Blizz do about that? Nothing.
You worry about players turning into money earning monsters, I know that we already have enough professional money earning monsters rampaging every game. Playing fire with fire is dangerous, but sitting still and pretending the world is nice is just as dangerous.
You view my view, and none seems to be nearer to any solid solutions.
Thanks for the lecture, I do not care to talk about my credentials, I just want to tell us your ideas are no secret.
You amount to saying, private enterprises are trying to make money, some developers with bigger control over their market share will look longer, others take a shorter perspective. No secret.
The RMT and sub models are so well known, I do not believe any developers will fail to see how and why. It all depends on the developer's vision about his product, its competitiveness, and its control over its market segment to mix and match sub + cash shop to optimise profit, longer or shorter span, as the developer plans.
To the others who seems to be preaching a new religion here: it is stupid to suggest that we try to preach a new behaviour among the consumers trying to shape the producers. We are talking about millions of gamers, 90% of them do not care about reading forums, and the other 10% well most of them read a forum to play, not to unplay. I see D3 as just a game, in which national pride or bushido code of honor is a bit too much here. I just play whatever serve for the moment and move on.
Cheers all.
The next step for Blizzard is to issue cash licenses for item/gold farmers.
This. When real money is involved, how long before people are pointing fingers at Blizzavision over any exploits that come out? What if Duping part 3 is realized? It will have a huge impact on the economy and value of items already bought and sold for high dollar amounts. How will customers react when the only person still making the same money is Blizzavision on transactions and withdrawals? How fast will Blizzavision react? People already blame Blizzavision for the majority of "hacked accounts" warranted or not. When real money is at stake, how will that be handled? Your spam box will runneth over.
I for one will leave this game alone due to legal RMT. If I wanted to make money by selling stuff I would go to ebay or some other site.
Looking forward to uhh.....
playing: Civ 5, Tony Hawk Pro Skater HD
Brilliant idea, you need to break the end user agreement when you have an official channel for you to sell your goods. The only reason I can think of is that you are a gold farmer/seller. Nice to have you gone. Then.