I think that PvP in MMORPGs is in general for players who don't want a real challenge but instead utterly destroy people with worse equipment or lower levels.
In an FPS like TF2, each player has basically the same chances. Yes, some have a wider selection of equipment than others, but it's not like that one group of items is quickly superior to the other.
In MMORPGs, it's like "the player who was grinding the most wins". You got far better equipment and thus can easily destroy anyone with worse equipment, obviously. It's not about having a fair match or something, it's rather like going to a kid half your age and kick him in the balls. That's what MMORPG PvP is about. That's why I play PvE in MMORPGs and stay with PvP to "real" PvP games.
It's also why PvP players complain that much about every single patch. "Oh noes, suddenly I can't faceroll my opponents to death anymore because of a patch, how horrible". T_T MMORPG PvP is all about finding players who are no match for you and kill them.
I think that PvP in MMORPGs is in general for players who don't want a real challenge but instead utterly destroy people with worse equipment or lower levels.
In an FPS like TF2, each player has basically the same chances. Yes, some have a wider selection of equipment than others, but it's not like that one group of items is quickly superior to the other.
In MMORPGs, it's like "the player who was grinding the most wins". You got far better equipment and thus can easily destroy anyone with worse equipment, obviously. It's not about having a fair match or something, it's rather like going to a kid half your age and kick him in the balls. That's what MMORPG PvP is about. That's why I play PvE in MMORPGs and stay with PvP to "real" PvP games.
It's also why PvP players complain that much about every single patch. "Oh noes, suddenly I can't faceroll my opponents to death anymore because of a patch, how horrible". T_T MMORPG PvP is all about finding players who are no match for you and kill them.
i agree with you. i think that pvp in a mmorpg is totally useless and a total waste of time. yet there are some people who are willing to shed 15 euros, dollars each month to play a mmo only for that particular features, knowing that FPS would provide them with a far and superior pvp experience.
No, gankers do not have low self esteem....It's honestly just funny to hear the nerd raging that follows.
That's very difficult to credit when you read their complex construct of justifications--including the contradiction inherent in the above.
Lol... do you feel special for using big words on the internet? Explain to me how my statement is contradictory. Because I think it's funny that some people care wayyyyy too much about video games, it automatically makes me have low self-esteem and have inferiority/superiority issues? Are you citing an actual psychological study, or are you just pulling it out of your ass? That's what I thought.
Um...so you think Icewhite used big words? wow.
And a general response to everyone, all the folks for ganking lowbies are on the Sith side. If anything they are just pissed off that the word younglings was used several time in the prequels, and not being able to kill such younglings in TOR is frickin annoying! Carry on!
i think they get a huge boost of ego, and a general feeling of being powerful and in control, this people normally have very little to none existant self steem irl, thus you normally see them bragging after each low level player they killed. they also avoid challenge and run away from higher level players or anyone that pose a challenge or any opposition to them.
their ideal game is one where players would simply stood up still while afk, allowing them to pk left and right untill they or the low players would log off out of boredom.
they swarm every new MMO like flies to the milk with their hopes and expectations up in search for their new pvp playing grounds, looking for new virtual victims.
SWTOR announced that you would not be able to make your way to the opponents starting world and gank starting players. It did not say that they removed PVP, that it would only be instanced PVP, or that once someone left the starter planets (around lvl 20 or so) that you couldn't attack them. ONLY that you you couldn't go and gank brand new toons.
Nerd rage followed from the PK community.
My question is WHY?
Why is the ability to kill brand new players so integral to the playstyle? Why does the temporary ability to avoid ganking cause so much hate and discontent?
I like the way you have structured this quesion with this context. I'm rightly guessing there are multiplicity of reasons for ganking lowbies gameplay. However beginning at the beginning: If a game is multiplayer and it's possible to play this way, ppl will do so and that's observed. At worst there's dubious motivation and at best there's full expression of capacity to change the game to one's wishes as the game design allows this. And I agree with the last point, if the game allows it, I don't care if players act this way, blame the game not the player!
That said, levels is a system brought into mmorpgs from other games. It's a system that I'd prefer mmorpgs to move away from for more immersive simulation of virtual worlds and so this artificial layering perhaps is latent reason in some gankers rebelling against this, perhaps not fully verbalised, by acting this way (as well as the more odious motives also in the mix) and from that perspective, this is useful negative feedback that should be considered by developers seriously apart from choosing:
1/ Diplomatic Immunity for New Players (eg Themepark SWTOR, GW2 etc)
or
2/ Choose your own passport and which country you will be visiting, warzone or otherwise.
As said, levels are the real problem in my opinion which leads to the fork above.
SWTOR announced that you would not be able to make your way to the opponents starting world and gank starting players. It did not say that they removed PVP, that it would only be instanced PVP, or that once someone left the starter planets (around lvl 20 or so) that you couldn't attack them. ONLY that you you couldn't go and gank brand new toons.
Nerd rage followed from the PK community.
My question is WHY?
Why is the ability to kill brand new players so integral to the playstyle? Why does the temporary ability to avoid ganking cause so much hate and discontent?
And I agree with the last point, if the game allows it, I don't care if players act this way, blame the game not the player!
I disagree with the point you made here.
We rarely hear this defense for Team Killers in Team FPS games that have friendly fire, even though the game includes the ability to shoot your team-mates.
Why is that?
The answer is simple, because players recognize that this is not the point of either the game or the feature. Yet, when it comes to an MMO that ALSO has a similar feature we hear its the games fault for including such a feature, regardless of the reason they included it.
Because its funny to see how serious some people are about video games. If you really care so much that it makes you angry when someone comes and kills you in a video game, then you need help. No, gankers do not have low self esteem. No, they do not have 'issues' in real life. It's honestly just funny to hear the nerd raging that follows.
*edit* I also look at it the same way I look at people who whine about the AWP in counterstrike. If you don't like a particular feature of a game (the AWP, the ability to gank, etc) then don't play the game. It's that easy.
You do not need psychological studies on a specific individual for a psychologist (such as myself) to clearly see people who have issues.
Your statement of "It's honestly just funny to hear the nerd raging that follows." is a bit disturbing, as healthier human beings tend to not find enjoyment from seeing others' veins popping out, and mature adults do not "get off" on exciting people with anger issues or inciting additional frustration just to see someone dance.
Your repetitive and rapid defenses against others only helps to add evidence to the hypothesis that "gankers have low self esteem or "issues" in real life." You not only enjoy the suffering of others, which can be a trait of unhealthy people, but you are also quite quick to defend yourself by responding in a way which appears to be very insecure. Most people do not feel the need to defend themselves repeatedly, even at posts not directed at themselves.
Your multiple replies to this thread is actually what convinced me that the hypothesis is most likely TRUE! It is hard to believe it isn't, when the only person defending "gankers" is one which is clearly dealing with some sort of real life issue himself. I do not mean to belittle you or embarass you, but only to point out to you and to others that it does seem to be true, based on the very evidence in this thread.
The real question is, "In online video games, is it healthy for people with real life problems to act out negatively in anger towards others by killing them when they have no chance, just to laugh at their misfortune? Does this benefit the person in any way? Can cruelty to others be positive to those who are cruel?"
Just because a person has issues, doesn't necessarily mean it is wrong or bad to "gank newbies", although most of us would argue against it as seen here.
Don't get me wrong, one of my favorite things to do is to prank people, argue with them online, or to drive them crazy when I feel they are being illogical. For most of my life, I enjoy this not because I am a psychopath, not because I have low self-esteem, but because it is just plain fun. HOWEVER, I never pick on newbies unless I am also one, I never have been a PK and dont' really understand harming others innocently and ruining their gaming experience, and I usually only argue or drive crazy those who bully others or attempt to bully me multiple times, noticing they have a bully mentality online. I was always an anti-PK PK, anti-bully bully, or just an immature prankster. If the person got very upset though (such as someone with a short fuse) I would apologize, making sure I made up for making them upset. My intentions for pranks are to poke fun at other people, which I realize is annoying to them. However, I don't wish to annoy them but am okay if I do, but I certainly do not want to do any more than simply annoy them. When I do enjoy frustrating them, I usually justify it with a reason, and it is because I am angry or have "issues" at that time. And yes, all psychologists have as many issues as everyone else. We are human beings also.
Because its funny to see how serious some people are about video games. If you really care so much that it makes you angry when someone comes and kills you in a video game, then you need help. No, gankers do not have low self esteem. No, they do not have 'issues' in real life. It's honestly just funny to hear the nerd raging that follows.
*edit* I also look at it the same way I look at people who whine about the AWP in counterstrike. If you don't like a particular feature of a game (the AWP, the ability to gank, etc) then don't play the game. It's that easy.
You do not need psychological studies on a specific individual for a psychologist (such as myself) to clearly see people who have issues.
Your statement of "It's honestly just funny to hear the nerd raging that follows." is a bit disturbing, as healthier human beings tend to not find enjoyment from seeing others' veins popping out, and mature adults do not "get off" on exciting people with anger issues or inciting additional frustration just to see someone dance.
Your repetitive and rapid defenses against others only helps to add evidence to the hypothesis that "gankers have low self esteem or "issues" in real life." You not only enjoy the suffering of other's, which is a trait of unhealthy people, but you are also quite quick to defend yourself by responding in a way which appears to be very insecure. Most people do not feel the need to defend themselves repeatedly, even at posts not directed at themselves.
Your multiple replies to this thread is actually what convinced me that the hypothesis is most likely TRUE! It is hard to believe it isn't, when the only person defending "gankers" is one which is clearly dealing with some sort of real life issue himself. I do not mean to belittle you or embarass you, but only to point out to you and to others that it does seem to be true, based on the very evidence in this thread.
The real question is, "In online video games, is it healthy for people with real life problems to act out negatively in anger towards others by killing them when they have no chance, just to laugh at their misfortune? Does this benefit the person in any way? Can cruelty to others be positive to those who are cruel?"
Just because a person has issues, doesn't necessarily mean it is wrong or bad to "gank newbies", although most of us would argue against it as seen here.
You do know that for you people that dont want risk, use skill, strategy, or your brain there are these games called RPG's that you dont have to worry about that. I dont gank, its not honorable in my eyes. As an old school gamer i try to put community before my characters. But seriously should not try to remove part of MMO's because people dont like risk. Ive been ganked many times, doesnt bother me much. I loose nothing in todays types of mmo's (no decay/no death penalty). But to keep making mmo's more like rpgs is just sad and no true epic mmo will ever be made with all the dumbed down mechanics this day in age.
In AoC guilds would fight and take control of mid to high level zones to slow down another guilds members leveling. Even though the low level area was PvP it was left alone so the low level people could run quests and fight eachother.
Some people find it amusing for a number of reasons:
Some are just mean/antisocial and like the fact they are beating on/griefing other players.
Some people are just bads only able to kill newb players.
Some simple think that in a game with fully open pvp rules that "red is dead" and they derive no explicit extra pleasure from killing a newb, it's just part of the game so move on and get on with it.
Some may do it for RP reasons I suppose.
Some people do it on a whim.
Some may do it for territory/control/loot aspects as seen in EVE.
Some people may find it amusing from time to time, but not really do it often:
Dependant on who the newb is, and what they were doing at the time.
Some may find the circumstances around the event on occassion 'fun'. Did they chase a newb with no real intention on killing them, only to have it turn into a hilarious Keystone Cops scenario.
Some people may love open world pvp games with no safe zones and not kill newbs at all.
Seriously, you can spend all day trying to psychoanalyse why some find ganking newbs fun but it is pointless as it differs dependant upon each individual and the circumstances that occur in the game.
People trying to state that A) ganking newbs is not pvp, or that all people who from time to time find ganking newbs amusing are sociopathic monsters are wrong on both counts.
That being said it should be abundantly clear why a game like TOR needs safezones and I'm surprised that some are shocked at this being the case.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
I think that PvP in MMORPGs is in general for players who don't want a real challenge but instead utterly destroy people with worse equipment or lower levels.
In an FPS like TF2, each player has basically the same chances. Yes, some have a wider selection of equipment than others, but it's not like that one group of items is quickly superior to the other.
In MMORPGs, it's like "the player who was grinding the most wins". You got far better equipment and thus can easily destroy anyone with worse equipment, obviously. It's not about having a fair match or something, it's rather like going to a kid half your age and kick him in the balls. That's what MMORPG PvP is about. That's why I play PvE in MMORPGs and stay with PvP to "real" PvP games.
It's also why PvP players complain that much about every single patch. "Oh noes, suddenly I can't faceroll my opponents to death anymore because of a patch, how horrible". T_T MMORPG PvP is all about finding players who are no match for you and kill them.
i agree with you. i think that pvp in a mmorpg is totally useless and a total waste of time. yet there are some people who are willing to shed 15 euros, dollars each month to play a mmo only for that particular features, knowing that FPS would provide them with a far and superior pvp experience.
I wasn't going to say anything reading the first post, but after reading TWO of your posts, I just couldn't help myself but to speak up.
Comparing FPS "PvP" and MMORPG PvP and saying FPS games would provide a superior pvp experience is just plain silly. Not only are they two entirely different games, but the PvP is entirely different. It would be like saying "there are some people who are willing to shed 15 euros, dollars each month to buy tacos for tex-mex food, knowing that watermelon would provide them with a far and superior taco experience."
Last time I checked, watermelons don't taste like tacos. Neither do FPS games have any similarities to MMORPG PvP. Not even the players are the same, other than the fact most players on both games seem to suck and are easy to kill, hahahaha :P
You make a lot of generalizations and random claims, not only without evidence of any type or supporting information about yourself (your knowledge on the subject) but honestly... you don't even make logical generalizations or claims. Your post after this one sums up "Gankers" in a jumble of what to me seems like something a confused person would say, listing "big words" they don't understand, throwing in 10 different sentences paraphrased incorrectly from completely different articles they've heard before.
Your inability to empathize with what PvP actually is, and why people like it, severely hinders you in such a way to make you appear very ignorant and awkward. Any knowledgable gamer, regardless of their taste, would never compare FPS PvP with MMORPG PvP like WoW or Rift. Arguably, not even Darkfall, a MMORPG with FPS combat.
You do know that for you people that dont want risk, use skill, strategy, or your brain there are these games called RPG's that you dont have to worry about that. I dont gank, its not honorable in my eyes. As an old school gamer i try to put community before my characters. But seriously should not try to remove part of MMO's because people dont like risk. Ive been ganked many times, doesnt bother me much. I loose nothing in todays types of mmo's (no decay/no death penalty). But to keep making mmo's more like rpgs is just sad and no true epic mmo will ever be made with all the dumbed down mechanics this day in age.
Skill and Strategy, in many cases, does nothing to prevent being ganked. if you're a low level character, poorly geared, a crafter, or simply outnumbered, you simply just can't prevent being ganked short of never leaving protected areas.
The existence of ganking is nothing more than a pointless inconvenience caused by players that have nothing better to do. As an oldschool gamer who dealt with FFA PvP ganking and full loot drop on death, I can safely say that being ganked added absolutely nothing positive to my gameplay experience. I have absolutely no positive memories of being ganked, and the majority of my negative memories of UO are related to being ganked, dry looted, and corpse camped for no other reason than because I left town.
That's why a lot of PvP MMOs and/or PvP ruleset servers go out of their way to discourage or prevent ganking of lowbies. Being one shot by higher level players with no way to avoid or get away from them while you're in your own newbie area adds absolutely nothing to the game. If anything, it very arguably drives people away from the game. Which again, is why developers go out of their way to restrict this kind of behavior.
Seriously, you can spend all day trying to psychoanalyse why some find ganking newbs fun but it is pointless as it differs dependant upon each individual and the circumstances that occur in the game.
Usually psychologists have to do research before making drastic claims that there is not a single or small set of reasosn as to why people do things.
If every psychologist took your philosophy instead of doing research to provide evidence to their crazy claims, we wouldn't have ANY scientific research at all. Many psychologists do research which disproves their own hypothesis, helping the greater community understand the specifics or the generalizations which cause human reaction.
I'd actually argue that the hypothesis saying that "gankers", "griefers", or even "PK's" have psychological issues, anti-social disorders, mental illness, or are in general "upset people" is true.
I wouldn't be upset if I was wrong, but it would take a good amount of research to convince me that "there are many different reasons, based on the individual." While this is most likely a true statement, it might be true in that the different reasons are still all unhealthy rather than your hypothesized theory that it is a mix of healthy, neutral, and unhealthy reasoning. Of course, from my perspective you seem to be stating that this is a fact, yet provide no evidence. I will give you the benefit of the doubt that you are merely hypothesizing what you speak.
I think that PvP in MMORPGs is in general for players who don't want a real challenge but instead utterly destroy people with worse equipment or lower levels.
In an FPS like TF2, each player has basically the same chances. Yes, some have a wider selection of equipment than others, but it's not like that one group of items is quickly superior to the other.
In MMORPGs, it's like "the player who was grinding the most wins". You got far better equipment and thus can easily destroy anyone with worse equipment, obviously. It's not about having a fair match or something, it's rather like going to a kid half your age and kick him in the balls. That's what MMORPG PvP is about. That's why I play PvE in MMORPGs and stay with PvP to "real" PvP games.
It's also why PvP players complain that much about every single patch. "Oh noes, suddenly I can't faceroll my opponents to death anymore because of a patch, how horrible". T_T MMORPG PvP is all about finding players who are no match for you and kill them.
i agree with you. i think that pvp in a mmorpg is totally useless and a total waste of time. yet there are some people who are willing to shed 15 euros, dollars each month to play a mmo only for that particular features, knowing that FPS would provide them with a far and superior pvp experience.
Comparing FPS "PvP" and MMORPG PvP and saying FPS games would provide a superior pvp experience is just plain silly. Not only are they two entirely different games, but the PvP is entirely different. It would be like saying "there are some people who are willing to shed 15 euros, dollars each month to buy tacos for tex-mex food, knowing that watermelon would provide them with a far and superior taco experience."
Last time I checked, watermelons don't take like tacos. Neither do FPS games have any similarities to MMORPG PvP. Not even the players are the same, other than the fact most players on both games seem to suck and are easy to kill, hahahaha :P
You make a lot of generalizations and random claims, not only without evidence of any type or supporting information about yourself (your knowledge on the subject) but honestly... you don't even make logical generalizations or claims. Your post after this one sums up "Gankers" in a jumble of what to me seems like something a confused person would say, listing "big words" they don't understand, throwing in 10 different sentences paraphrased incorrectly from completely different articles they've heard before.
Your inability to empathize with what PvP actually is, and why people like it, severely hinders you in such a way to make you appear very ignorant and awkward. Any knowledgable gamer, regardless of their taste, would never compare FPS PvP with MMORPG PvP like WoW or Rift. Arguably, not even Darkfall, a MMORPG with FPS combat.
I see your point but there is something to be said for the state of pvp (mechanics-wise) in mmos and the fact that it could be vastly improved upon by adopting more skill driven metrics.
Many do indeed focus on pvp in mmos which provide little to no extra elements such as meaningful territory control or massive, epic scale battles which cannot be found in fps/moba games. In these cases, just pvping for the pvp in and of itself does not make a great deal of sense given the mechanics are far superior in dedicated pvp games. They are essentially just playing a worse version of other games.
Some mmos do offer massive battles and meaningful territory control, or other combat related dynamics which you cannot find in games of other genres. As such it is perfectly clear why pvpers would play these mmos instead of or as well as more dedicated pvp games.
It is ofc highly subjective but I see little point in BG's/Scenarios in games which are gear centric and have little to no twitch or player skill mechanics in them. When the combat is far purer and far better for want of a better word in something like and fps or a moba. Now something like GW2 I can see the point of it as it is clearly trying to go down the non typical mmo route for combat.
MMO's offer up massive open worlds and in depth mechanics above and beyond the combat in and of itself, and that is what appeals to me as a pvper (from an mmo point of view). The ability to control territory or loot my opponent etc. But in mmos which don't offer these dynamics, I can't see the draw for the people who proclaim to be "all about the pvp".
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
Seriously, you can spend all day trying to psychoanalyse why some find ganking newbs fun but it is pointless as it differs dependant upon each individual and the circumstances that occur in the game.
Usually psychologists have to do research before making drastic claims that there is not a single or small set of reasosn as to why people do things.
I've listed numerous reasons and I haven't claimed the list to be definitive so not sure what you are on about here.
If every psychologist took your philosophy instead of doing research to provide evidence to their crazy claims, we wouldn't have ANY scientific research at all. Many psychologists do research which disproves their own hypothesis, helping the greater community understand the specifics or the generalizations which cause human reaction.
No funnily enough there would be plenty of research done, just into more important things... Aside from that i'm not sure what you are getting at.
I'd actually argue that the hypothesis saying that "gankers", "griefers", or even "PK's" have psychological issues, anti-social disorders, mental illness, or are in general "upset people" is true.
I'd argue that some may, some may not. Given that you are stating that ALL people who have ever PK'd have psychological issues, it is for YOU to prove that.
I wouldn't be upset if I was wrong, but it would take a good amount of research to convince me that "there are many different reasons, based on the individual." While this is most likely a true statement, it might be true in that the different reasons are still all unhealthy rather than your hypothesized theory that it is a mix of healthy, neutral, and unhealthy reasoning. Of course, from my perspective you seem to be stating that this is a fact, yet provide no evidence. I will give you the benefit of the doubt that you are merely hypothesizing what you speak.
It would take alot of research for you to believe that there are different reasons for people killing newbs, really?
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
SWTOR announced that you would not be able to make your way to the opponents starting world and gank starting players. It did not say that they removed PVP, that it would only be instanced PVP, or that once someone left the starter planets (around lvl 20 or so) that you couldn't attack them. ONLY that you you couldn't go and gank brand new toons.
Nerd rage followed from the PK community.
My question is WHY?
Why is the ability to kill brand new players so integral to the playstyle? Why does the temporary ability to avoid ganking cause so much hate and discontent?
whats there to discuss if you chosse a pvp server ganking has to be part of it, i f you can't deal with ganking go play on a pve server.
Anyway real PvP has lost its way since Daoc and Pre-Trammel so I'm not interested in PvP servers anymore you lose nothing, there is no thrill or fear.
This post, its on reason I play and love Eve Online. PvP still has meaning in that game were as in other MMO's the carebears have taken over.
SWTOR announced that you would not be able to make your way to the opponents starting world and gank starting players. It did not say that they removed PVP, that it would only be instanced PVP, or that once someone left the starter planets (around lvl 20 or so) that you couldn't attack them. ONLY that you you couldn't go and gank brand new toons.
Nerd rage followed from the PK community.
My question is WHY?
Why is the ability to kill brand new players so integral to the playstyle? Why does the temporary ability to avoid ganking cause so much hate and discontent?
whats there to discuss if you chosse a pvp server ganking has to be part of it, i f you can't deal with ganking go play on a pve server.
Anyway real PvP has lost its way since Daoc and Pre-Trammel so I'm not interested in PvP servers anymore you lose nothing, there is no thrill or fear.
This post, its on reason I play and love Eve Online. PvP still has meaning in that game were as in other MMO's the carebears have taken over.
I don't think it's a "carebear" problem. EvE actually has a mostly working PvP system (the best I've seen) and these other games don't. I know plenty of "carebears" that play and love EvE because of the way it's PvP is set up.
SWTOR announced that you would not be able to make your way to the opponents starting world and gank starting players. It did not say that they removed PVP, that it would only be instanced PVP, or that once someone left the starter planets (around lvl 20 or so) that you couldn't attack them. ONLY that you you couldn't go and gank brand new toons.
Nerd rage followed from the PK community.
My question is WHY?
Why is the ability to kill brand new players so integral to the playstyle? Why does the temporary ability to avoid ganking cause so much hate and discontent?
And I agree with the last point, if the game allows it, I don't care if players act this way, blame the game not the player!
I disagree with the point you made here.
We rarely hear this defense for Team Killers in Team FPS games that have friendly fire, even though the game includes the ability to shoot your team-mates.
Why is that?
The answer is simple, because players recognize that this is not the point of either the game or the feature. Yet, when it comes to an MMO that ALSO has a similar feature we hear its the games fault for including such a feature, regardless of the reason they included it.
I agree, the RESULT is less than ideal and it' inevitable in mmorpgs that don't have measures to prevent it. In eg Black Ops Friendly Fire is probably a good design feature to make teams avoid firing across a killing zone at each other ie cross-firing alpha and beta teams is the correct method if remember correctly. And players get kicked from servers on PS3 if they indulge in in running amok their team-mates. Problem solved.
In mmorpgs devsshould either not allow the possibility (fair enough to protect new players) or they should allow the gankers to play "their ganking game" but not without complete impunity or not providing some means for newbies to fight back in these starter zones? IE devs allow the possibility in some mmorpgs but don't develop for it further which I think would be a more interesting development than complete protection which I think is against the ultimate goals of mmorpgs to allow players to choose their own paths both good and bad. Either give stinging punishments to gankers caught out red-handed or give newbies some extra tools in starter areas to claim some big sculps?? Win-win?
Newbies are easy prey and takes least amount of effort. Sor some it is fun because a newbie hardly offer any challenge and majority of gankers just care for the kill count in their character sheets. It gives them bragging rights not that anyone is going to ask how many of these kills were low level new players.
I think the main point of PvP is having a sportive competition.
Sportive means everyone gets a fighting chance. Your chance might only be 20% - but it should never be 0%. If you know how to play your class, if you know how to handle the other class, and the other guy isnt as good in this respect as you are, you should be able to win against all odds.
Also, if you happen to have a bit luck and the other guy has bad luck, you should still win even if you would normally lose. Attacking others should never be without risk !
Sportive also means the loser doesnt lose everything. They get a disadvantage and the winner gets an advantage, but the loser isnt disabled and the loser also doesnt have to face the same opponent again if he doesnt want to (it should be worthwhile to face him again, though).
Ganking however has nothing to do with any of this. The opponent stands no chance, as he has the disadvantage of being of much lower level. You get the maximum reward - everything he has on him. Therefore there should be some element in your game that prevents too much ganking.
For Lineage 2, for example, that was the playerkiller mechanism. Kill enough lowbies and your name turns red and you cannot enter normal player towns again.
The whole unaddressed issue of ganking was one of the reasons I only shook my head at the whole Darkfall concept and never wanted to play that game. Okay, it was far from the only one. The whole game idea was without any fun element. But yeah, the whole pseudo-darwin "it will sort itself out" approach to gaming makes no sense to me. A MMO is a community of people, and whereever there is a group of people, there have to be rules to regulate their behavior to each other.
Overall a game should be about having fun. If your idea of fun is to kill the fun of other players, however, any reasonable gamemaster will remove you from the game, instead of seeing your victims leave. Because very likely that will result in a better community.
In the theoretical ideal dream-MMO of mine, world PvP would work like this:
1. You cannot attack other players in open world unless you are either at explicit war with their faction, or if you're bandit, or if the other player is a bandit. Bandits can freely attack other bandits. Players below a certain power level cannot participate in any PvP yet.
2. A player cannot be tricked into attacking another player if he doesnt want to. Attack skills only operate on opponents, never on neutral players or players belonging to your group.
3. Newbie players are of the newbie faction and are never at war with anyone. As long as you are of the newbie faction, you can only get into PvP if attacked by a bandit or participating in the arena.
4. Players might join a faction of players. Such a faction might attempt to conquer an area, by a successful castle siege on the castle controlling said area, or by building a castle themselves plus a surrounding city including guarded lands around this city.
5. All characters of an account belong to the same faction, or are bandits.
6. Once a faction actually is in control of an area, it may declare war on other factions also holding areas.
7. A player turns bandit by finding a bandit outpost and joining them. Bandit outposts are rare and far between. They offer less favorable conditions, like only paying 1/10 of what cities pay for loot. Players keep finding and destroying them.
8. Player Bandits cannot enter player cities any more; the city guards attack them on sight. Player Bandits also have a hard time to get into the areas surrounding cities. These areas are low risk areas for everyone, but they offer less rewards than leaving them and entering the wilds. Player Bandits also lose their faction. Players that currently hold special positions inside a faction, such as the supreme leader, cannot turn bandit unless they leave that position (which causes certain delays so the rest of the players have a chance to pick new people for these positions).
9. You cannot see a players level or class before you attack. You may guess their class from their gear, though. If the perception skills are too low to spot them, your game client wont even have the information they are there at all. Class skills and gear can help in the ability to hide, and in the ability to spot.
10. Initiating PvP by attacking a player in any way causes the game to heal both parties to full health, mana and whatever other status values the game has (endurance, PvP hitpoints, ...) and reset all recast counters. Also, all buffs are temporarily removed. Gear, stats and skill abilities will be leveled towards each other, meaning a level 50 mage now wont have a stronger fireball than a level 20 mage any more (the higher level character will still have the advantage of having more skills), and hitpoints/mana/etc will also be leveled to each other. The better equipped and higher level character definitely has an advantage, but not as strong as the other party stands no chance.
9. Once the fight has been resolved, the loser drops items (fixed percentage of their money plus a chance for a random drop of their gear) and are teleported to the closest temple of their deity. The winner is set back to the status they had before, including getting their old buffs back and getting their old recast counters. Only the winner or the loser of the battle may pick up the items the loser dropped.
10. If one of the two parties loggs out, the other party has 20 seconds to kill the opponent. Otherwise the fight is considered a draw.
11. Both partners can also agree to a draw. Once both have entered the /offerdraw command, the fight is stopped.
12. Aside from banditery, there is also war PvP (as described, both parties are in opposing factions), area fights, and castle sieges.
13. If a group of bandits attacks a group of players, there can be an extra bandit for every 2 players attacked. So a group of three bandits might attack a group of two players. If there are too many bandits in the group, random bandits are dropped before the PvP starts. There is no limit on how many players can be attacked; a single bandit might attack a full group (maximum 12 players).
14. Arena fights do reward arena points as well as some money. For starting a fight, you have to pay a fixed fee. You will get 180% of that fee if you win, and nothing if you lose. There is nothing dropped by the loser of an arena fight.
15. There is no direct reward for War and Castle Siege PvP. You simply gain the advantage of having moved the opponent from the area, requiring him to take a long walk back.
Because its funny to see how serious some people are about video games. If you really care so much that it makes you angry when someone comes and kills you in a video game, then you need help. No, gankers do not have low self esteem. No, they do not have 'issues' in real life. It's honestly just funny to hear the nerd raging that follows.
*edit* I also look at it the same way I look at people who whine about the AWP in counterstrike. If you don't like a particular feature of a game (the AWP, the ability to gank, etc) then don't play the game. It's that easy.
What's funnier is to see the nerd raging of the lowbie gankers when they get ganked. They don't seem to take it with the same sense of humor that they dish it out. For some reason they just run away.
Actually, contrary to your statement that you seemed to have pulled out of thin air, it makes it more fun. When higher level toons/more powerful toons come in and add challenge to the situation, it makes the whole endeavor more enjoyable.
I'm not sure you understand the concept of what a 'challenge' is, sport. A challenge revolves around having a chance of success, but only through great skill, perserverance and/or luck. A man stepping on an insect isn't presenting the insect with a challenge. Perhaps you think it qualifies if you happen to be the stepper rather than the steppee, but either way, your justification stands about as tall as a snake's ass.
I had given up on this thread, but this post is too funny to let go. You do realize the "challenge" I spoke of is when the people at equal or greater power to my own show up once they hear someone is ganking lowbies, right?
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Probably counts as harrassment and could get you temp banned in most games if you'd keep that up for a long time.
Also it would make me think you would genuinly feel hurt and offended by getting killed if you put in all that time and effort.
Sets you back more than the gank did in the first place so it really defeats the purpose
My brand new bloggity blog.
I think that PvP in MMORPGs is in general for players who don't want a real challenge but instead utterly destroy people with worse equipment or lower levels.
In an FPS like TF2, each player has basically the same chances. Yes, some have a wider selection of equipment than others, but it's not like that one group of items is quickly superior to the other.
In MMORPGs, it's like "the player who was grinding the most wins". You got far better equipment and thus can easily destroy anyone with worse equipment, obviously. It's not about having a fair match or something, it's rather like going to a kid half your age and kick him in the balls. That's what MMORPG PvP is about. That's why I play PvE in MMORPGs and stay with PvP to "real" PvP games.
It's also why PvP players complain that much about every single patch. "Oh noes, suddenly I can't faceroll my opponents to death anymore because of a patch, how horrible". T_T MMORPG PvP is all about finding players who are no match for you and kill them.
Let's play Fallen Earth (blind, 300 episodes)
Let's play Guild Wars 2 (blind, 45 episodes)
i agree with you. i think that pvp in a mmorpg is totally useless and a total waste of time. yet there are some people who are willing to shed 15 euros, dollars each month to play a mmo only for that particular features, knowing that FPS would provide them with a far and superior pvp experience.
And a general response to everyone, all the folks for ganking lowbies are on the Sith side. If anything they are just pissed off that the word younglings was used several time in the prequels, and not being able to kill such younglings in TOR is frickin annoying!
Carry on!
i think they get a huge boost of ego, and a general feeling of being powerful and in control, this people normally have very little to none existant self steem irl, thus you normally see them bragging after each low level player they killed. they also avoid challenge and run away from higher level players or anyone that pose a challenge or any opposition to them.
their ideal game is one where players would simply stood up still while afk, allowing them to pk left and right untill they or the low players would log off out of boredom.
they swarm every new MMO like flies to the milk with their hopes and expectations up in search for their new pvp playing grounds, looking for new virtual victims.
I like the way you have structured this quesion with this context. I'm rightly guessing there are multiplicity of reasons for ganking lowbies gameplay. However beginning at the beginning: If a game is multiplayer and it's possible to play this way, ppl will do so and that's observed. At worst there's dubious motivation and at best there's full expression of capacity to change the game to one's wishes as the game design allows this. And I agree with the last point, if the game allows it, I don't care if players act this way, blame the game not the player!
That said, levels is a system brought into mmorpgs from other games. It's a system that I'd prefer mmorpgs to move away from for more immersive simulation of virtual worlds and so this artificial layering perhaps is latent reason in some gankers rebelling against this, perhaps not fully verbalised, by acting this way (as well as the more odious motives also in the mix) and from that perspective, this is useful negative feedback that should be considered by developers seriously apart from choosing:
1/ Diplomatic Immunity for New Players (eg Themepark SWTOR, GW2 etc)
or
2/ Choose your own passport and which country you will be visiting, warzone or otherwise.
As said, levels are the real problem in my opinion which leads to the fork above.
http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1014633/Classic-Game-Postmortem
I disagree with the point you made here.
We rarely hear this defense for Team Killers in Team FPS games that have friendly fire, even though the game includes the ability to shoot your team-mates.
Why is that?
The answer is simple, because players recognize that this is not the point of either the game or the feature. Yet, when it comes to an MMO that ALSO has a similar feature we hear its the games fault for including such a feature, regardless of the reason they included it.
So long, and thanks for all the fish!
You do not need psychological studies on a specific individual for a psychologist (such as myself) to clearly see people who have issues.
Your statement of "It's honestly just funny to hear the nerd raging that follows." is a bit disturbing, as healthier human beings tend to not find enjoyment from seeing others' veins popping out, and mature adults do not "get off" on exciting people with anger issues or inciting additional frustration just to see someone dance.
Your repetitive and rapid defenses against others only helps to add evidence to the hypothesis that "gankers have low self esteem or "issues" in real life." You not only enjoy the suffering of others, which can be a trait of unhealthy people, but you are also quite quick to defend yourself by responding in a way which appears to be very insecure. Most people do not feel the need to defend themselves repeatedly, even at posts not directed at themselves.
Your multiple replies to this thread is actually what convinced me that the hypothesis is most likely TRUE! It is hard to believe it isn't, when the only person defending "gankers" is one which is clearly dealing with some sort of real life issue himself. I do not mean to belittle you or embarass you, but only to point out to you and to others that it does seem to be true, based on the very evidence in this thread.
The real question is, "In online video games, is it healthy for people with real life problems to act out negatively in anger towards others by killing them when they have no chance, just to laugh at their misfortune? Does this benefit the person in any way? Can cruelty to others be positive to those who are cruel?"
Just because a person has issues, doesn't necessarily mean it is wrong or bad to "gank newbies", although most of us would argue against it as seen here.
Don't get me wrong, one of my favorite things to do is to prank people, argue with them online, or to drive them crazy when I feel they are being illogical. For most of my life, I enjoy this not because I am a psychopath, not because I have low self-esteem, but because it is just plain fun. HOWEVER, I never pick on newbies unless I am also one, I never have been a PK and dont' really understand harming others innocently and ruining their gaming experience, and I usually only argue or drive crazy those who bully others or attempt to bully me multiple times, noticing they have a bully mentality online. I was always an anti-PK PK, anti-bully bully, or just an immature prankster. If the person got very upset though (such as someone with a short fuse) I would apologize, making sure I made up for making them upset. My intentions for pranks are to poke fun at other people, which I realize is annoying to them. However, I don't wish to annoy them but am okay if I do, but I certainly do not want to do any more than simply annoy them. When I do enjoy frustrating them, I usually justify it with a reason, and it is because I am angry or have "issues" at that time. And yes, all psychologists have as many issues as everyone else. We are human beings also.
Dr. Phil? Is that you?
You do know that for you people that dont want risk, use skill, strategy, or your brain there are these games called RPG's that you dont have to worry about that. I dont gank, its not honorable in my eyes. As an old school gamer i try to put community before my characters. But seriously should not try to remove part of MMO's because people dont like risk. Ive been ganked many times, doesnt bother me much. I loose nothing in todays types of mmo's (no decay/no death penalty). But to keep making mmo's more like rpgs is just sad and no true epic mmo will ever be made with all the dumbed down mechanics this day in age.
In AoC guilds would fight and take control of mid to high level zones to slow down another guilds members leveling. Even though the low level area was PvP it was left alone so the low level people could run quests and fight eachother.
My theme song.
Some people find it amusing for a number of reasons:
Some are just mean/antisocial and like the fact they are beating on/griefing other players.
Some people are just bads only able to kill newb players.
Some simple think that in a game with fully open pvp rules that "red is dead" and they derive no explicit extra pleasure from killing a newb, it's just part of the game so move on and get on with it.
Some may do it for RP reasons I suppose.
Some people do it on a whim.
Some may do it for territory/control/loot aspects as seen in EVE.
Some people may find it amusing from time to time, but not really do it often:
Dependant on who the newb is, and what they were doing at the time.
Some may find the circumstances around the event on occassion 'fun'. Did they chase a newb with no real intention on killing them, only to have it turn into a hilarious Keystone Cops scenario.
Some people may love open world pvp games with no safe zones and not kill newbs at all.
Seriously, you can spend all day trying to psychoanalyse why some find ganking newbs fun but it is pointless as it differs dependant upon each individual and the circumstances that occur in the game.
People trying to state that A) ganking newbs is not pvp, or
that all people who from time to time find ganking newbs amusing are sociopathic monsters are wrong on both counts.
That being said it should be abundantly clear why a game like TOR needs safezones and I'm surprised that some are shocked at this being the case.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
I wasn't going to say anything reading the first post, but after reading TWO of your posts, I just couldn't help myself but to speak up.
Comparing FPS "PvP" and MMORPG PvP and saying FPS games would provide a superior pvp experience is just plain silly. Not only are they two entirely different games, but the PvP is entirely different. It would be like saying "there are some people who are willing to shed 15 euros, dollars each month to buy tacos for tex-mex food, knowing that watermelon would provide them with a far and superior taco experience."
Last time I checked, watermelons don't taste like tacos. Neither do FPS games have any similarities to MMORPG PvP. Not even the players are the same, other than the fact most players on both games seem to suck and are easy to kill, hahahaha :P
You make a lot of generalizations and random claims, not only without evidence of any type or supporting information about yourself (your knowledge on the subject) but honestly... you don't even make logical generalizations or claims. Your post after this one sums up "Gankers" in a jumble of what to me seems like something a confused person would say, listing "big words" they don't understand, throwing in 10 different sentences paraphrased incorrectly from completely different articles they've heard before.
Your inability to empathize with what PvP actually is, and why people like it, severely hinders you in such a way to make you appear very ignorant and awkward. Any knowledgable gamer, regardless of their taste, would never compare FPS PvP with MMORPG PvP like WoW or Rift. Arguably, not even Darkfall, a MMORPG with FPS combat.
Skill and Strategy, in many cases, does nothing to prevent being ganked. if you're a low level character, poorly geared, a crafter, or simply outnumbered, you simply just can't prevent being ganked short of never leaving protected areas.
The existence of ganking is nothing more than a pointless inconvenience caused by players that have nothing better to do. As an oldschool gamer who dealt with FFA PvP ganking and full loot drop on death, I can safely say that being ganked added absolutely nothing positive to my gameplay experience. I have absolutely no positive memories of being ganked, and the majority of my negative memories of UO are related to being ganked, dry looted, and corpse camped for no other reason than because I left town.
That's why a lot of PvP MMOs and/or PvP ruleset servers go out of their way to discourage or prevent ganking of lowbies. Being one shot by higher level players with no way to avoid or get away from them while you're in your own newbie area adds absolutely nothing to the game. If anything, it very arguably drives people away from the game. Which again, is why developers go out of their way to restrict this kind of behavior.
Usually psychologists have to do research before making drastic claims that there is not a single or small set of reasosn as to why people do things.
If every psychologist took your philosophy instead of doing research to provide evidence to their crazy claims, we wouldn't have ANY scientific research at all. Many psychologists do research which disproves their own hypothesis, helping the greater community understand the specifics or the generalizations which cause human reaction.
I'd actually argue that the hypothesis saying that "gankers", "griefers", or even "PK's" have psychological issues, anti-social disorders, mental illness, or are in general "upset people" is true.
I wouldn't be upset if I was wrong, but it would take a good amount of research to convince me that "there are many different reasons, based on the individual." While this is most likely a true statement, it might be true in that the different reasons are still all unhealthy rather than your hypothesized theory that it is a mix of healthy, neutral, and unhealthy reasoning. Of course, from my perspective you seem to be stating that this is a fact, yet provide no evidence. I will give you the benefit of the doubt that you are merely hypothesizing what you speak.
I see your point but there is something to be said for the state of pvp (mechanics-wise) in mmos and the fact that it could be vastly improved upon by adopting more skill driven metrics.
Many do indeed focus on pvp in mmos which provide little to no extra elements such as meaningful territory control or massive, epic scale battles which cannot be found in fps/moba games. In these cases, just pvping for the pvp in and of itself does not make a great deal of sense given the mechanics are far superior in dedicated pvp games. They are essentially just playing a worse version of other games.
Some mmos do offer massive battles and meaningful territory control, or other combat related dynamics which you cannot find in games of other genres. As such it is perfectly clear why pvpers would play these mmos instead of or as well as more dedicated pvp games.
It is ofc highly subjective but I see little point in BG's/Scenarios in games which are gear centric and have little to no twitch or player skill mechanics in them. When the combat is far purer and far better for want of a better word in something like and fps or a moba. Now something like GW2 I can see the point of it as it is clearly trying to go down the non typical mmo route for combat.
MMO's offer up massive open worlds and in depth mechanics above and beyond the combat in and of itself, and that is what appeals to me as a pvper (from an mmo point of view). The ability to control territory or loot my opponent etc. But in mmos which don't offer these dynamics, I can't see the draw for the people who proclaim to be "all about the pvp".
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
This post, its on reason I play and love Eve Online. PvP still has meaning in that game were as in other MMO's the carebears have taken over.
I don't think it's a "carebear" problem. EvE actually has a mostly working PvP system (the best I've seen) and these other games don't. I know plenty of "carebears" that play and love EvE because of the way it's PvP is set up.
My theme song.
I agree, the RESULT is less than ideal and it' inevitable in mmorpgs that don't have measures to prevent it. In eg Black Ops Friendly Fire is probably a good design feature to make teams avoid firing across a killing zone at each other ie cross-firing alpha and beta teams is the correct method if remember correctly. And players get kicked from servers on PS3 if they indulge in in running amok their team-mates. Problem solved.
In mmorpgs devsshould either not allow the possibility (fair enough to protect new players) or they should allow the gankers to play "their ganking game" but not without complete impunity or not providing some means for newbies to fight back in these starter zones? IE devs allow the possibility in some mmorpgs but don't develop for it further which I think would be a more interesting development than complete protection which I think is against the ultimate goals of mmorpgs to allow players to choose their own paths both good and bad. Either give stinging punishments to gankers caught out red-handed or give newbies some extra tools in starter areas to claim some big sculps?? Win-win?
http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1014633/Classic-Game-Postmortem
Newbies are easy prey and takes least amount of effort. Sor some it is fun because a newbie hardly offer any challenge and majority of gankers just care for the kill count in their character sheets. It gives them bragging rights not that anyone is going to ask how many of these kills were low level new players.
gankers = bullies
'nough said
its the feellling of being 'tougher' or 'dominant' over another person. For thir own enjoyment.
I think the main point of PvP is having a sportive competition.
Sportive means everyone gets a fighting chance. Your chance might only be 20% - but it should never be 0%. If you know how to play your class, if you know how to handle the other class, and the other guy isnt as good in this respect as you are, you should be able to win against all odds.
Also, if you happen to have a bit luck and the other guy has bad luck, you should still win even if you would normally lose. Attacking others should never be without risk !
Sportive also means the loser doesnt lose everything. They get a disadvantage and the winner gets an advantage, but the loser isnt disabled and the loser also doesnt have to face the same opponent again if he doesnt want to (it should be worthwhile to face him again, though).
Ganking however has nothing to do with any of this. The opponent stands no chance, as he has the disadvantage of being of much lower level. You get the maximum reward - everything he has on him. Therefore there should be some element in your game that prevents too much ganking.
For Lineage 2, for example, that was the playerkiller mechanism. Kill enough lowbies and your name turns red and you cannot enter normal player towns again.
The whole unaddressed issue of ganking was one of the reasons I only shook my head at the whole Darkfall concept and never wanted to play that game. Okay, it was far from the only one. The whole game idea was without any fun element. But yeah, the whole pseudo-darwin "it will sort itself out" approach to gaming makes no sense to me. A MMO is a community of people, and whereever there is a group of people, there have to be rules to regulate their behavior to each other.
Overall a game should be about having fun. If your idea of fun is to kill the fun of other players, however, any reasonable gamemaster will remove you from the game, instead of seeing your victims leave. Because very likely that will result in a better community.
In the theoretical ideal dream-MMO of mine, world PvP would work like this:
1. You cannot attack other players in open world unless you are either at explicit war with their faction, or if you're bandit, or if the other player is a bandit. Bandits can freely attack other bandits. Players below a certain power level cannot participate in any PvP yet.
2. A player cannot be tricked into attacking another player if he doesnt want to. Attack skills only operate on opponents, never on neutral players or players belonging to your group.
3. Newbie players are of the newbie faction and are never at war with anyone. As long as you are of the newbie faction, you can only get into PvP if attacked by a bandit or participating in the arena.
4. Players might join a faction of players. Such a faction might attempt to conquer an area, by a successful castle siege on the castle controlling said area, or by building a castle themselves plus a surrounding city including guarded lands around this city.
5. All characters of an account belong to the same faction, or are bandits.
6. Once a faction actually is in control of an area, it may declare war on other factions also holding areas.
7. A player turns bandit by finding a bandit outpost and joining them. Bandit outposts are rare and far between. They offer less favorable conditions, like only paying 1/10 of what cities pay for loot. Players keep finding and destroying them.
8. Player Bandits cannot enter player cities any more; the city guards attack them on sight. Player Bandits also have a hard time to get into the areas surrounding cities. These areas are low risk areas for everyone, but they offer less rewards than leaving them and entering the wilds. Player Bandits also lose their faction. Players that currently hold special positions inside a faction, such as the supreme leader, cannot turn bandit unless they leave that position (which causes certain delays so the rest of the players have a chance to pick new people for these positions).
9. You cannot see a players level or class before you attack. You may guess their class from their gear, though. If the perception skills are too low to spot them, your game client wont even have the information they are there at all. Class skills and gear can help in the ability to hide, and in the ability to spot.
10. Initiating PvP by attacking a player in any way causes the game to heal both parties to full health, mana and whatever other status values the game has (endurance, PvP hitpoints, ...) and reset all recast counters. Also, all buffs are temporarily removed. Gear, stats and skill abilities will be leveled towards each other, meaning a level 50 mage now wont have a stronger fireball than a level 20 mage any more (the higher level character will still have the advantage of having more skills), and hitpoints/mana/etc will also be leveled to each other. The better equipped and higher level character definitely has an advantage, but not as strong as the other party stands no chance.
9. Once the fight has been resolved, the loser drops items (fixed percentage of their money plus a chance for a random drop of their gear) and are teleported to the closest temple of their deity. The winner is set back to the status they had before, including getting their old buffs back and getting their old recast counters. Only the winner or the loser of the battle may pick up the items the loser dropped.
10. If one of the two parties loggs out, the other party has 20 seconds to kill the opponent. Otherwise the fight is considered a draw.
11. Both partners can also agree to a draw. Once both have entered the /offerdraw command, the fight is stopped.
12. Aside from banditery, there is also war PvP (as described, both parties are in opposing factions), area fights, and castle sieges.
13. If a group of bandits attacks a group of players, there can be an extra bandit for every 2 players attacked. So a group of three bandits might attack a group of two players. If there are too many bandits in the group, random bandits are dropped before the PvP starts. There is no limit on how many players can be attacked; a single bandit might attack a full group (maximum 12 players).
14. Arena fights do reward arena points as well as some money. For starting a fight, you have to pay a fixed fee. You will get 180% of that fee if you win, and nothing if you lose. There is nothing dropped by the loser of an arena fight.
15. There is no direct reward for War and Castle Siege PvP. You simply gain the advantage of having moved the opponent from the area, requiring him to take a long walk back.
I had given up on this thread, but this post is too funny to let go. You do realize the "challenge" I spoke of is when the people at equal or greater power to my own show up once they hear someone is ganking lowbies, right?