Any game with any form of pregression will hand some form of advantage to a veteran player, but then that is the point of progression games is it not?
Exactly.
And I beleive that there is a LOT that is RPG about that progression but not very much that helps out the MMO aspect of the game or any so called MMORPG.
I've believed that since my earliest UO days and with my absolute hatred of EQ.
Unfortunately, people won't even consider a true sandbox MMO which means without RPG progression and instead actual role playing.
Are you saying you would want an "mmo" which is for all intents and purposes and "mmorpg" (and not a sim like Second Life), which has zero stat/gear progression?
If that is the case, I think quite a few people would like to give that game a try and oddly enough a great many of those people would be pvpers.
Yep.
Maybe not with zero progression but with Horizontal progression instead of Vertical and yes, PvP would certainly be very appealing in such a game.
Any game with any form of pregression will hand some form of advantage to a veteran player, but then that is the point of progression games is it not?
Exactly.
And I beleive that there is a LOT that is RPG about that progression but not very much that helps out the MMO aspect of the game or any so called MMORPG.
I've believed that since my earliest UO days and with my absolute hatred of EQ.
Unfortunately, people won't even consider a true sandbox MMO which means without RPG progression and instead actual role playing.
Are you saying you would want an "mmo" which is for all intents and purposes and "mmorpg" (and not a sim like Second Life), which has zero stat/gear progression?
If that is the case, I think quite a few people would like to give that game a try and oddly enough a great many of those people would be pvpers.
Yep.
Maybe not with zero progression but with Horizontal progression instead of Vertical and yes, PvP would certainly be very appealing in such a game.
Well I can't say I disagree with you on that one. Such a game would be extremely refreshing in the current market place.
The trouble is the developer would immediately alienate the traditional min/maxer, gear whore crowd who take to skill systems with the same kind of eagerness as a cat takes to water. A crowd which in this day and age is sadly 90%* or more of the current mmo playerbase.
Still the remaining people interested in such a game would surely number enough to warrant giving it a go.
* As an educated guess, don't quote me on that.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
Maybe not with zero progression but with Horizontal progression instead of Vertical and yes, PvP would certainly be very appealing in such a game.
Well I can't say I disagree with you on that one. Such a game would be extremely refreshing in the current market place.
The trouble is the developer would immediately alienate the traditional min/maxer, gear whore crowd who take to skill systems with the same kind of eagerness as a cat takes to water. A crowd which in this day and age is sadly 90%* or more of the current mmo playerbase.
Still the remaining people interested in such a game would surely number enough to warrant giving it a go.
* As an educated guess, don't quote me on that.
I don't think ZERO progression would work - even FPS games like Battlefield and Call of Duty have progression now.
Those games are actually fairly good examples of Horizontal Progression for a persistent character.
No matter what "level" you get to and what you unlock and have available, new guns and perks and such, you still die when you get shot - even by a noob.
Similar progression mechanics for a MMORPG would work, and I don't believe the MMO would have to be a FPS either, would totally still work with a more "traditional" tab-target combat system or something similar that isn't 100% twitch based.
Guild Wars 2 is actually taking a very large leap in this direction - they have a lot of auto-balancing features for both PvE and PvP that make the levels and gear and such pretty much a non-issue-
In that game it's more about your "build" which is very similar to the CoD / BF example, more like a trading card game where you may have unlocked all of the cards in the deck but you can only have so many in your hand at one time.
I don't think ZERO progression would work - even FPS games like Battlefield and Call of Duty have progression now.
Those games are actually fairly good examples of Horizontal Progression for a persistent character.
No matter what "level" you get to and what you unlock and have available, new guns and perks and such, you still die when you get shot - even by a noob.
Similar progression mechanics for a MMORPG would work, and I don't believe the MMO would have to be a FPS either, would totally still work with a more "traditional" tab-target combat system or something similar that isn't 100% twitch based.
Guild Wars 2 is actually taking a very large leap in this direction - they have a lot of auto-balancing features for both PvE and PvP that make the levels and gear and such pretty much a non-issue-
In that game it's more about your "build" which is very similar to the CoD / BF example, more like a trading card game where you may have unlocked all of the cards in the deck but you can only have so many in your hand at one time.
I think GW2 is really going to surprise people.
GW2 does indeed look promising.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
The fun part is when you sit on their toons face and say "Haha, I pwned joo noob!" and then they say "(**&&%^ you, you ()&)&)&&&^%^ f^&&07!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I hate you, you ^%$## anbd you can go (@#$%^ your *@$%^&;!!!!!!!
instead of i hate you or $%^#%^ your@#$% etc, when a high level toon/ship kills me i simply dont say a word, and if they start trash talking, "ohh i pwned you, IN YOUR FACE!" i simply reply, "yes, yes you did, not impressed though, you are 46 levels ahead of me, nothing i could have done, shit happens...oh well..."
at that point i would so like to have a webcam so i can see their dissapointed or confused look in their face
I think low level PvP can be a lot of fun especially when a game first comes out. In the first weeks after release everyone is pretty much equal. There are no high level players ganking newbs because everyone is new to the game. The best PvP is sometimes right out of the gate before you know what you are doing or have to over think things.
This early stage PvP sets the tone of the whole game. Do people flock together forming a safety in numbers PvP community or do people get together to focus on PvE goals and then PvP later on in the game as an after thought.
The issue comes later when there are lots of high level players and they do decide to gank the newbs. At that point it is ok to disable starting level pvp. Another thing that can ruin the formation of a good pvp community is the Early Start programs where beta testers and Pre-order people get into the game a few weeks before the general population. These early start people have an unfair advanage over others so of course developers have to put in artificial barriers to protect the new players.
I don't think ZERO progression would work - even FPS games like Battlefield and Call of Duty have progression now.
Those games are actually fairly good examples of Horizontal Progression for a persistent character.
No matter what "level" you get to and what you unlock and have available, new guns and perks and such, you still die when you get shot - even by a noob.
Similar progression mechanics for a MMORPG would work, and I don't believe the MMO would have to be a FPS either, would totally still work with a more "traditional" tab-target combat system or something similar that isn't 100% twitch based.
Guild Wars 2 is actually taking a very large leap in this direction - they have a lot of auto-balancing features for both PvE and PvP that make the levels and gear and such pretty much a non-issue-
In that game it's more about your "build" which is very similar to the CoD / BF example, more like a trading card game where you may have unlocked all of the cards in the deck but you can only have so many in your hand at one time.
I think GW2 is really going to surprise people.
Agreed. A MMORPG where you are the same as you were when you started out 2 years ago wouldn't really work.
On the other hand is the gap between a new player both in gear and stats in games like Wow and EQ just too large.
We need something in between. That older players have more skills to choose from like in Guildwars is one way of handling this that works.
Another way is what we see in pen and paper RPGs like Runequest and Warhammer fantasy RPG, where you do get better but not to the same extreme as we see in MMOs. Both those games are not gear oriented and you can keep the same gear there during a full campaign as you get when rolling the char.
There is a reason that MMOs are one of the few genres where PvE is still more popular than PvP and that is because MMO mechanics are really made for PvE. MMOs needs new mechanics that makes PvP more fun without taking away the fun in PvE.
I think 2 things must go.
First of all the focus on gear. Best gear wins just isn't fun so gear needs to be more balanced like in GW2.
The second thing is levels. They have already more or less played out their role in MMO and are now nothing more than a long tutorial in MMOs. Instead of the level you should unlock skills and abilities which you can use to make your build. Experienced players will have more choices and combos but there will still be some balance.
The alternative is really splitting the genre into 2 games instead so PvP games really can focus on the PvP, and the PvP games needs new mechanics.
The alternative is really splitting the genre into 2 games instead so PvP games really can focus on the PvP, and the PvP games needs new mechanics.
We sort of are seeing that really in two forms. First of all the prevelance of games like MOBAS and specfically the newer breed of them which are essentially the distilled action of battlefields/scenarios placed on there own. Secondly in the way games are splitting off their pvp into instanced areans and zones.
We can also see larger scale dedicated pvp mmo style games in the likes of PS2, GA and stuff like Firefall.
That's great, having dedicated pvp mmos makes perfect sense, but it does worry me that this kind of splitting means we will never see the complexities of the likes of a UO or EVE again. Games in which the pvp/territory control is just as fundamental to the world as the other central mechanics of the economy and the social/rp aspects.
I hate to hype up games that are not released, but I think it will be interesting to see if the GW2 model has any real knock on impact on the industry in terms of how pvp is handled in high quality mmo titles.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
We sort of are seeing that really in two forms. First of all the prevelance of games like MOBAS and specfically the newer breed of them which are essentially the distilled action of battlefields/scenarios placed on there own. Secondly in the way games are splitting off their pvp into instanced areans and zones.
We can also see larger scale dedicated pvp mmo style games in the likes of PS2, GA and stuff like Firefall.
That's great, having dedicated pvp mmos makes perfect sense, but it does worry me that this kind of splitting means we will never see the complexities of the likes of a UO or EVE again. Games in which the pvp/territory control is just as fundamental to the world as the other central mechanics of the economy and the social/rp aspects.
I hate to hype up games that are not released, but I think it will be interesting to see if the GW2 model has any real knock on impact on the industry in terms of how pvp is handled in high quality mmo titles.
Yeah, but I agree with you there: splitting up the games really makes us loose a lot of potential.
I still think it is very well possible to make working mechanics both for PvE and PvP.
GW2 is hopefully a step in the right direction but I am not sure it is far enough.
To some degree, ganking seems akin to hazing, where the established group puts new members through abusive or humilating acts as a rite of passage. Newbies who are able to tolerate the abuse are eventually accepted into the group, those who are less tolerant leave or avoid the established group (in gaming terminology, they become carebears). These new initiates then carry on the hazing tradition as new groups arrive.
To some degree, ganking seems akin to hazing, where the established group puts new members through abusive or humilating acts as a rite of passage. Newbies who are able to tolerate the abuse are eventually accepted into the group and those who are less tolerant leave or avoid the established group (in gaming terminology, they become carebears). These new initiates then carry on the hazing tradition as new groups arrive.
I suppose in a way you are correct there for some people, even though many (including myself from time to time) do it subconsciously.
I have never repeatedly killed the same character (low level) over and over again in any game, nor would I ever think to do that. But yes, I have wiped out a newb only to afterwards offer adivce and gear etc and in a way it is a "welcome to the game" kind of hazing thing I guess.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
To some degree, ganking seems akin to hazing, where the established group puts new members through abusive or humilating acts as a rite of passage. Newbies who are able to tolerate the abuse are eventually accepted into the group and those who are less tolerant leave or avoid the established group (in gaming terminology, they become carebears). These new initiates then carry on the hazing tradition as new groups arrive.
I suppose in a way you are correct there for some people, even though many (including myself from time to time) do it subconsciously.
I have never repeatedly killed the same character (low level) over and over again in any game, nor would I ever think to do that. But yes, I have wiped out a newb only to afterwards offer adivce and gear etc and in a way it is a "welcome to the game" kind of hazing thing I guess.
Right, I don't think hazing is the sole answer (as we've seen from this lengthy discussion, ganking is a complex issue), but in my opinion, it may be one reason why some players choose to gank.
It isn't fun. It's just an act of primitive aggression based, most likely, on the ganker having had the same thing done to him at one time. If not, it's still a giant waste of time. It's one thing that makes world PVP an undesirable feature to me personally. You can one shot lvl 20s, but why would you?
i think this is a bit like asking the schoolyard bully why he likes to bully the other kids. he typically doesn't know.
i had a response on a simliar topic recently concerning RL games and online games. the point i made being there's no such separation. you can't pretend that being a bully online is just a persona for you only online. because whatever you are, you are. whether that's online or offline.
basically there is no online world w/o the RL world and that its not impossible to think that people who do this online are not simply doing it because they are anonymous. there's a good chance they are bullies in real life. even if its only kicking the dog for no reason.
"There are at least two kinds of games. One could be called finite, the other infinite. A finite game is played for the purpose of winning, an infinite game for the purpose of continuing play." Finite and Infinite Games, James Carse
Ganking newbs allows you to get in touch with your inner douchebag. How can you truly know anything about yourself unless you've one-shotted a hapless level 5 enough times to drive him away from the game forever? It's important to get these low level threats out of the game as soon as possible, lest they become strong and powerful enough at later levels to challenge your manhood in the righteous display of epeen superiority that we call instance pvp battlegrounds.
The irony is, THEY call the people against this playstyle carebears, when in reality they are the ones too chicken-shit to face someone that can beat them back.
Bingo!
Another take on that when a PvP MMO has consequences for ganking another player (who couldn't or didn't defend themself), such as a criminal system, etc, you'll see a bunch of people crying that it's "carebear!". Only it isn't. It's called "your actions have consequences. So, think carefully before ganking someone and choose your targets wisely".
To me, it's far more hardcore to have an open PvP system where there are consequences for your actions. But, the people who cry "carebear!" don't agree.... Why? Because, as you state, jedensuscg, they'e the real carebears.
Their ideal of "the perfect PvP MMO" is to be able to endlessly prey on people far too weak to defend themself for an easy kill, and have absolutely zero consequences for it, so they can do it as much as they want, to as many people as they want, for as long as they want... and have no penalty for it.
Also, when those types are doing their newbie ganking/griefing, gloating over how hardcore it makes them to kill the equivelant of level 1 mobs as a level 30 player... they'll be the first ones to run away or log out when someone who can challenge them shows up.
One of my favorite things to happen (and it's happened a number of times), is I've been leveling a new character in a MMO, like say Lineage 2 (back around C3-C4) to have someone clearly much more powerful than me - based on their gear and the skills they were using - show up and start ganking myself and other newbies around me. So, I'd log out and show up on my higher level character... which was more powerful than them.
I'd PK them (if they didn't run away first) and immediately be met with PM's along the lines of "lol what are you a carebear? You can only kill people weaker than you? lol you must really suck at real PvP".
I'd reply with something like, "That's funny coming from someone who just spent the past 20 minutes killing every newbie player they saw and gloating about it."
Now the irony of that exchanget alone is funny enough... But in some cases, they'd put the ironic cherry on top with a statement like the following:
"It's a PvP game. If you cant' handle it, then stop crying and go play a carebear MMO."
These people would literally contradict themselves multiple times in the course of like.. 4 minutes.
Best part is... some of them would stick around and keep killing the newbies even after that. So I'd have to kill them again... only to have the same thing happen.
But anyway... that's your typical newbie ganker/griefer. As has been said... the typical schoolyard bully, only picking on those they know they can beat.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Because they can, is the sad and easy answer. Reading all of the posts in this, it strikes me that some of the blame or burden falls on the higher-level community to some degree. If I'm playing WoW, and sailing through Goldshire (to have tea with friends at the Inn, of course), and see someone whacking the crap out of newbs, and don't stop to pummel said ganker into shame and misery for their misguided and sadlistic behavoir, aren't I enabling it, to some small degree? Sure, higher-level players aren't always around to play the hero, even if they were so inclined to do so, but if you are, well.....
*shrugs*
This was a very enlighening academic paper published in 2009 in the issue:
You know that quote about the triump of evil and good men doing nothing well essentially it is the same in games. If we policed ourselves better in games we would not have this problem. Instead people who can do and other just watch and this drives new players away.
I dunno about swtor crap but newbs aint just low levels.
Billionz of high lvl newbs out there as well to kill.. low level newbs and high lvl newbs aint any difference.. except that high lvls got more lewtz. gief... me... teh.... l00t. Bi@tH!!1
I suspect that perpetual n00bzone-griefers actually make up a very tiny slice of the PvP community, and a miniscule proportion of the total MMO community.
Yet they generate an enourmous volume of discussion and outrage !
It only takes ONE a$$hat to spoil the day for dozens of newbie players. The problem is that they tend to end up giving PvP'ers in general a bad name in those few games that do try and mix PvP and PVE. That image of PvP is then spread by the offended carebears, who seem to outnumber PvP'ers in the MMO market.
It also leads to game developers implementing hugely complicated flagging and death penalty systems that end up affecting the ENTIRE game, and probably makes mainstream developers reluctant to even try to build another UO-type game.
Comments
Yep.
Maybe not with zero progression but with Horizontal progression instead of Vertical and yes, PvP would certainly be very appealing in such a game.
Well I can't say I disagree with you on that one. Such a game would be extremely refreshing in the current market place.
The trouble is the developer would immediately alienate the traditional min/maxer, gear whore crowd who take to skill systems with the same kind of eagerness as a cat takes to water. A crowd which in this day and age is sadly 90%* or more of the current mmo playerbase.
Still the remaining people interested in such a game would surely number enough to warrant giving it a go.
* As an educated guess, don't quote me on that.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
I don't think ZERO progression would work - even FPS games like Battlefield and Call of Duty have progression now.
Those games are actually fairly good examples of Horizontal Progression for a persistent character.
No matter what "level" you get to and what you unlock and have available, new guns and perks and such, you still die when you get shot - even by a noob.
Similar progression mechanics for a MMORPG would work, and I don't believe the MMO would have to be a FPS either, would totally still work with a more "traditional" tab-target combat system or something similar that isn't 100% twitch based.
Guild Wars 2 is actually taking a very large leap in this direction - they have a lot of auto-balancing features for both PvE and PvP that make the levels and gear and such pretty much a non-issue-
In that game it's more about your "build" which is very similar to the CoD / BF example, more like a trading card game where you may have unlocked all of the cards in the deck but you can only have so many in your hand at one time.
I think GW2 is really going to surprise people.
GW2 does indeed look promising.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
instead of i hate you or $%^#%^ your@#$% etc, when a high level toon/ship kills me i simply dont say a word, and if they start trash talking, "ohh i pwned you, IN YOUR FACE!" i simply reply, "yes, yes you did, not impressed though, you are 46 levels ahead of me, nothing i could have done, shit happens...oh well..."
at that point i would so like to have a webcam so i can see their dissapointed or confused look in their face
I think low level PvP can be a lot of fun especially when a game first comes out. In the first weeks after release everyone is pretty much equal. There are no high level players ganking newbs because everyone is new to the game. The best PvP is sometimes right out of the gate before you know what you are doing or have to over think things.
This early stage PvP sets the tone of the whole game. Do people flock together forming a safety in numbers PvP community or do people get together to focus on PvE goals and then PvP later on in the game as an after thought.
The issue comes later when there are lots of high level players and they do decide to gank the newbs. At that point it is ok to disable starting level pvp. Another thing that can ruin the formation of a good pvp community is the Early Start programs where beta testers and Pre-order people get into the game a few weeks before the general population. These early start people have an unfair advanage over others so of course developers have to put in artificial barriers to protect the new players.
Agreed. A MMORPG where you are the same as you were when you started out 2 years ago wouldn't really work.
On the other hand is the gap between a new player both in gear and stats in games like Wow and EQ just too large.
We need something in between. That older players have more skills to choose from like in Guildwars is one way of handling this that works.
Another way is what we see in pen and paper RPGs like Runequest and Warhammer fantasy RPG, where you do get better but not to the same extreme as we see in MMOs. Both those games are not gear oriented and you can keep the same gear there during a full campaign as you get when rolling the char.
There is a reason that MMOs are one of the few genres where PvE is still more popular than PvP and that is because MMO mechanics are really made for PvE. MMOs needs new mechanics that makes PvP more fun without taking away the fun in PvE.
I think 2 things must go.
First of all the focus on gear. Best gear wins just isn't fun so gear needs to be more balanced like in GW2.
The second thing is levels. They have already more or less played out their role in MMO and are now nothing more than a long tutorial in MMOs. Instead of the level you should unlock skills and abilities which you can use to make your build. Experienced players will have more choices and combos but there will still be some balance.
The alternative is really splitting the genre into 2 games instead so PvP games really can focus on the PvP, and the PvP games needs new mechanics.
We sort of are seeing that really in two forms. First of all the prevelance of games like MOBAS and specfically the newer breed of them which are essentially the distilled action of battlefields/scenarios placed on there own. Secondly in the way games are splitting off their pvp into instanced areans and zones.
We can also see larger scale dedicated pvp mmo style games in the likes of PS2, GA and stuff like Firefall.
That's great, having dedicated pvp mmos makes perfect sense, but it does worry me that this kind of splitting means we will never see the complexities of the likes of a UO or EVE again. Games in which the pvp/territory control is just as fundamental to the world as the other central mechanics of the economy and the social/rp aspects.
I hate to hype up games that are not released, but I think it will be interesting to see if the GW2 model has any real knock on impact on the industry in terms of how pvp is handled in high quality mmo titles.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
Yeah, but I agree with you there: splitting up the games really makes us loose a lot of potential.
I still think it is very well possible to make working mechanics both for PvE and PvP.
GW2 is hopefully a step in the right direction but I am not sure it is far enough.
OP: "What makes ganking newbs fun?"
Stupidity? low self-steem? boredom?
I never understood why some players keep on ganking lower levels & newbie players on some games....
at the end they just screw the game since a lot of ppl leave those games frustated,
and then, they cry because their game doesn´t have a good PvP.....
To some degree, ganking seems akin to hazing, where the established group puts new members through abusive or humilating acts as a rite of passage. Newbies who are able to tolerate the abuse are eventually accepted into the group, those who are less tolerant leave or avoid the established group (in gaming terminology, they become carebears). These new initiates then carry on the hazing tradition as new groups arrive.
I suppose in a way you are correct there for some people, even though many (including myself from time to time) do it subconsciously.
I have never repeatedly killed the same character (low level) over and over again in any game, nor would I ever think to do that. But yes, I have wiped out a newb only to afterwards offer adivce and gear etc and in a way it is a "welcome to the game" kind of hazing thing I guess.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
Right, I don't think hazing is the sole answer (as we've seen from this lengthy discussion, ganking is a complex issue), but in my opinion, it may be one reason why some players choose to gank.
It isn't fun. It's just an act of primitive aggression based, most likely, on the ganker having had the same thing done to him at one time. If not, it's still a giant waste of time. It's one thing that makes world PVP an undesirable feature to me personally. You can one shot lvl 20s, but why would you?
1) A total lack of anything else to do at higher levels.
2) Sense of inferiority against people the same level.
3) Because they are where you are, and they are a lowbie. My view is if you're in a high level area you're fair game.(Probably the most rare.)
That's my view on gray ganking.
i think this is a bit like asking the schoolyard bully why he likes to bully the other kids. he typically doesn't know.
i had a response on a simliar topic recently concerning RL games and online games. the point i made being there's no such separation. you can't pretend that being a bully online is just a persona for you only online. because whatever you are, you are. whether that's online or offline.
basically there is no online world w/o the RL world and that its not impossible to think that people who do this online are not simply doing it because they are anonymous. there's a good chance they are bullies in real life. even if its only kicking the dog for no reason.
"There are at least two kinds of games.
One could be called finite, the other infinite.
A finite game is played for the purpose of winning,
an infinite game for the purpose of continuing play."
Finite and Infinite Games, James Carse
Lol'd, awesome.
Bingo!
Another take on that when a PvP MMO has consequences for ganking another player (who couldn't or didn't defend themself), such as a criminal system, etc, you'll see a bunch of people crying that it's "carebear!". Only it isn't. It's called "your actions have consequences. So, think carefully before ganking someone and choose your targets wisely".
To me, it's far more hardcore to have an open PvP system where there are consequences for your actions. But, the people who cry "carebear!" don't agree.... Why? Because, as you state, jedensuscg, they'e the real carebears.
Their ideal of "the perfect PvP MMO" is to be able to endlessly prey on people far too weak to defend themself for an easy kill, and have absolutely zero consequences for it, so they can do it as much as they want, to as many people as they want, for as long as they want... and have no penalty for it.
Also, when those types are doing their newbie ganking/griefing, gloating over how hardcore it makes them to kill the equivelant of level 1 mobs as a level 30 player... they'll be the first ones to run away or log out when someone who can challenge them shows up.
One of my favorite things to happen (and it's happened a number of times), is I've been leveling a new character in a MMO, like say Lineage 2 (back around C3-C4) to have someone clearly much more powerful than me - based on their gear and the skills they were using - show up and start ganking myself and other newbies around me. So, I'd log out and show up on my higher level character... which was more powerful than them.
I'd PK them (if they didn't run away first) and immediately be met with PM's along the lines of "lol what are you a carebear? You can only kill people weaker than you? lol you must really suck at real PvP".
I'd reply with something like, "That's funny coming from someone who just spent the past 20 minutes killing every newbie player they saw and gloating about it."
Now the irony of that exchanget alone is funny enough... But in some cases, they'd put the ironic cherry on top with a statement like the following:
"It's a PvP game. If you cant' handle it, then stop crying and go play a carebear MMO."
These people would literally contradict themselves multiple times in the course of like.. 4 minutes.
Best part is... some of them would stick around and keep killing the newbies even after that. So I'd have to kill them again... only to have the same thing happen.
But anyway... that's your typical newbie ganker/griefer. As has been said... the typical schoolyard bully, only picking on those they know they can beat.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Because they can, is the sad and easy answer. Reading all of the posts in this, it strikes me that some of the blame or burden falls on the higher-level community to some degree. If I'm playing WoW, and sailing through Goldshire (to have tea with friends at the Inn, of course), and see someone whacking the crap out of newbs, and don't stop to pummel said ganker into shame and misery for their misguided and sadlistic behavoir, aren't I enabling it, to some small degree? Sure, higher-level players aren't always around to play the hero, even if they were so inclined to do so, but if you are, well.....
*shrugs*
This was a very enlighening academic paper published in 2009 in the issue:
http://bu.academia.edu/StaceyGoguen/Papers/123215/Dual_Wielding_Morality_World_of_Warcraft_and_the_Ethics_of_Ganking
And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you.
Friedrich Nietzsche
You know that quote about the triump of evil and good men doing nothing well essentially it is the same in games. If we policed ourselves better in games we would not have this problem. Instead people who can do and other just watch and this drives new players away.
I dunno about swtor crap but newbs aint just low levels.
Billionz of high lvl newbs out there as well to kill.. low level newbs and high lvl newbs aint any difference.. except that high lvls got more lewtz. gief... me... teh.... l00t. Bi@tH!!1
Because they're sociopaths. No other explanation is needed.
It allows one to satisfy his inner asshat without any repercussion.
Fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt.
Among those who dislike oppression are many who like to oppress.
That, and/or they just ran out of kittens to drown.
I suspect that perpetual n00bzone-griefers actually make up a very tiny slice of the PvP community, and a miniscule proportion of the total MMO community.
Yet they generate an enourmous volume of discussion and outrage !
It only takes ONE a$$hat to spoil the day for dozens of newbie players. The problem is that they tend to end up giving PvP'ers in general a bad name in those few games that do try and mix PvP and PVE. That image of PvP is then spread by the offended carebears, who seem to outnumber PvP'ers in the MMO market.
It also leads to game developers implementing hugely complicated flagging and death penalty systems that end up affecting the ENTIRE game, and probably makes mainstream developers reluctant to even try to build another UO-type game.