Because its funny to see how serious some people are about video games. If you really care so much that it makes you angry when someone comes and kills you in a video game, then you need help. No, gankers do not have low self esteem. No, they do not have 'issues' in real life. It's honestly just funny to hear the nerd raging that follows.
*edit* I also look at it the same way I look at people who whine about the AWP in counterstrike. If you don't like a particular feature of a game (the AWP, the ability to gank, etc) then don't play the game. It's that easy.
What's funnier is to see the nerd raging of the lowbie gankers when they get ganked. They don't seem to take it with the same sense of humor that they dish it out. For some reason they just run away.
Actually, contrary to your statement that you seemed to have pulled out of thin air, it makes it more fun. When higher level toons/more powerful toons come in and add challenge to the situation, it makes the whole endeavor more enjoyable.
I'm not sure you understand the concept of what a 'challenge' is, sport. A challenge revolves around having a chance of success, but only through great skill, perserverance and/or luck. A man stepping on an insect isn't presenting the insect with a challenge. Perhaps you think it qualifies if you happen to be the stepper rather than the steppee, but either way, your justification stands about as tall as a snake's ass.
I had given up on this thread, but this post is too funny to let go. You do realize the "challenge" I spoke of is when the people at equal or greater power to my own show up once they hear someone is ganking lowbies, right?
Question, do you apply your "Its a game" mentality to sports in the park? If you play football with your friends, do you grab the ball and run the "wrong" direction? When you play baseball, do you hit the ball, then try to run the bases backwards? I mean, its a game right? It should be fun to see how upset the other players get when you do this, and then assert that they need help for getting upset at you...
Why is the ability to kill brand new players so integral to the playstyle? Why does the temporary ability to avoid ganking cause so much hate and discontent?
It all depends on the game mechanics. In the PVP games that I've played - UO, SB, PotBS, EVE, Puzzle Pirates - a new player has just as much chance to affect the battle as a veteran player. Add to that, if you take the policy of not attacking the enemy's low level players, you've just given them free pass to safely transport their goods through your territory.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Why is the ability to kill brand new players so integral to the playstyle? Why does the temporary ability to avoid ganking cause so much hate and discontent?
It all depends on the game mechanics. In the PVP games that I've played - UO, SB, PotBS, EVE, Puzzle Pirates - a new player has just as much chance to affect the battle as a veteran player. Add to that, if you take the policy of not attacking the enemy's low level players, you've just given them free pass to safely transport their goods through your territory.
Context means everything for this issue.
If a new player somehow found himself in a situation where he stumbles into a PvP zone, it's fair game. Like with Eve, if a new player wanders into low sec space, well, that's their own fault because they had to go out of their way for that to happen. Likewise if a fresh level 85 character wandered into the PvP area of Tol Barad (the world PvP zone in WoW), well, their fault if they get ganked. I honestly don't think many people would argue that walking into an area explicitly labeled for PvP isn't accepting that PvP is going to happen, and that if you get ganked that's just part of it.
What people do take issue with is the extreme opposite end of the spectrum, in which low level players are within an area that is expected to be low risk and meant for their level. However, high level PvPers are instead the ones who go out of their way to track down and gank low level players in the low level areas that are meant for their victims to be in. So it's not a matter of said low level players placing themselves in harms way, but rather the aggressors actively going out of their way to track down victims who aren't in an area that would normally put them in the crosshairs of higher level PvPers.
It all depends on the game mechanics. In the PVP games that I've played - UO, SB, PotBS, EVE, Puzzle Pirates - a new player has just as much chance to affect the battle as a veteran player. Add to that, if you take the policy of not attacking the enemy's low level players, you've just given them free pass to safely transport their goods through your territory.
Wait wait, new players in EvE have "just as much of a chance to affect the battle as the veteran player" ???? I'd really like to see that one explained because I call bullshit.
It all depends on the game mechanics. In the PVP games that I've played - UO, SB, PotBS, EVE, Puzzle Pirates - a new player has just as much chance to affect the battle as a veteran player. Add to that, if you take the policy of not attacking the enemy's low level players, you've just given them free pass to safely transport their goods through your territory.
Wait wait, new players in EvE have "just as much of a chance to affect the battle as the veteran player" ???? I'd really like to see that one explained because I call bullshit.
Actually I'd like to point out that UO, past or present, really doesn't fit in the list either.
It all depends on the game mechanics. In the PVP games that I've played - UO, SB, PotBS, EVE, Puzzle Pirates - a new player has just as much chance to affect the battle as a veteran player. Add to that, if you take the policy of not attacking the enemy's low level players, you've just given them free pass to safely transport their goods through your territory.
Wait wait, new players in EvE have "just as much of a chance to affect the battle as the veteran player" ???? I'd really like to see that one explained because I call bullshit.
You can be viable for pvp in one form or another and able to 'compete' in a relatively short space of time yes. I guess it depends what you mean by 'new players'.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
It all depends on the game mechanics. In the PVP games that I've played - UO, SB, PotBS, EVE, Puzzle Pirates - a new player has just as much chance to affect the battle as a veteran player. Add to that, if you take the policy of not attacking the enemy's low level players, you've just given them free pass to safely transport their goods through your territory.
Wait wait, new players in EvE have "just as much of a chance to affect the battle as the veteran player" ???? I'd really like to see that one explained because I call bullshit.
You can be viable for pvp in one form or another and able to 'compete' in a relatively short space of time yes. I guess it depends what you mean by 'new players'.
"Viable" sounds really great...., Spock is right and you know it.
SWTOR announced that you would not be able to make your way to the opponents starting world and gank starting players. It did not say that they removed PVP, that it would only be instanced PVP, or that once someone left the starter planets (around lvl 20 or so) that you couldn't attack them. ONLY that you you couldn't go and gank brand new toons.
Nerd rage followed from the PK community.
My question is WHY?
Why is the ability to kill brand new players so integral to the playstyle? Why does the temporary ability to avoid ganking cause so much hate and discontent?
Nerd rage, or child rage? As an adult, unless I gain xp or some type of monetary reward, ganking a lower player is silly.
I believe the whole ganking, player kill frenzy that seems to have ruined group strategy based pvp, such as Warsong Gulch in WoW for example, is generated from the fps military style console games. Many many times, I've seen console kiddies admit to both their age, and their reason for honor kill farming instead of trying to win. "I'm here to have fun and kill players": direct quote.
The console game trained generation need to realize all games aren't for killing each other. Some are there to stimulate what gray matter they have, instead of their energy drink, ADHD fueled trigger finger.
It all depends on the game mechanics. In the PVP games that I've played - UO, SB, PotBS, EVE, Puzzle Pirates - a new player has just as much chance to affect the battle as a veteran player. Add to that, if you take the policy of not attacking the enemy's low level players, you've just given them free pass to safely transport their goods through your territory.
Wait wait, new players in EvE have "just as much of a chance to affect the battle as the veteran player" ???? I'd really like to see that one explained because I call bullshit.
You can be viable for pvp in one form or another and able to 'compete' in a relatively short space of time yes. I guess it depends what you mean by 'new players'.
"Viable" sounds really great...., Spock is right and you know it.
Viable means competitive and able to win. That you expect more than that as a new player in an mmo which is progression based is surprising.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
Because some people are just so either bad players or feel the need to be "powerfull" among something, both things are bad and both things taint them, true players face people equal or higuer to test their strengh, at least in mmo's, otherwise they are just lamers...
*ganks Varthander for his his 3k lower post count*
Pwnd nub!
Sorry just had to. I strongly disagree. In a war level isn't important. If there's an enemy out in contested territory, he must be destroyed whatever his level. Doesn't make me a lamer.
Lamers are griefers who purposely seek out lowbies and kill them repeatedly just because they can.
@Leoghan "I'm a big fan of - you went some place you shouldn't have been or weren't prepared for, you suffer the consquences."
Couldn't agree more.
Feel free to gank me as well, lol, but in an environment of "actual in-game war", I might be able to forgive something like this. I haven't played a game with this kind of setting, yet, but yeah...I could see this working to a degree. If the newbs, in this kind of setting, know all this from the get-go, then yeah...have at it. I'm not trying to be a hypocrite and hope I don't come off as one, but I doubt I could get angry if I knew I was getting PK'ed by an actual enemy faction. Just so long as it's, like you said, me wandering somewhere I shouldn't have, and not in the starting zones. I'm not sure I could personally do it to an enemy newb....might give him/her a chance to run, with a 5-minute head start, but someone ganks me in THIS type of setting, I get it.
Let's, for just once, not turn this into a discussion of what newbs should expect. Let's stick to discussing what drives some to shoot fish in a barrel. That reversal is decrepitly old.
Casilda Tametomo, Priestess of Soldeus | AKA Lepida Aegis-Imperium.com
«Si oblitus fuero usque ad finem omnia opera eorum»
It all depends on the game mechanics. In the PVP games that I've played - UO, SB, PotBS, EVE, Puzzle Pirates - a new player has just as much chance to affect the battle as a veteran player. Add to that, if you take the policy of not attacking the enemy's low level players, you've just given them free pass to safely transport their goods through your territory.
Wait wait, new players in EvE have "just as much of a chance to affect the battle as the veteran player" ???? I'd really like to see that one explained because I call bullshit.
You can be viable for pvp in one form or another and able to 'compete' in a relatively short space of time yes. I guess it depends what you mean by 'new players'.
"Viable" sounds really great...., Spock is right and you know it.
by affect the battle, he doesnt mean kill everyone and everything on day one.
he means that a new players can make the difference between a win or a loss (or a win or a "damn he got away")
put a new 3 day old player in a frigate with some webs afterburners and scramblers and you have yourself a mean little bugger. i would hate to have one of those flying around my battleship.
let me put it this way, that new player will be able to make a battleship simply float unable to do anything, not even run away. while you simply shoot it until it dies.
never go into pvp battle without a noob by your side
It all depends on the game mechanics. In the PVP games that I've played - UO, SB, PotBS, EVE, Puzzle Pirates - a new player has just as much chance to affect the battle as a veteran player. Add to that, if you take the policy of not attacking the enemy's low level players, you've just given them free pass to safely transport their goods through your territory.
Wait wait, new players in EvE have "just as much of a chance to affect the battle as the veteran player" ???? I'd really like to see that one explained because I call bullshit.
Actually I'd like to point out that UO, past or present, really doesn't fit in the list either.
Neither does SB and PotBS. I'm not certain but I'm pretty sure Puzzle Pirates doesn't either.
You are probably used to WOW and battleground type PVP games where the battle consists of nothing other than the moment when the two people are toe to toe smacking each other.
In SB, if you're willing to give my team's newbs a free pass, then I'll send only newbs out to buy up the runes you're guarding.
In PotBS, if you're willing to give my team's newbs a free pass, I'll use them to ship ammunition and ship deeds into the ports you are guarding to sell them to any and all sides that will buy them... at considerable markup.
In UO, we'll just let our newbs loot your corpses.
In any of the games I listed, a new player can transport needed goods, do recon and collect intel, or manipulate markets... all things that affect the outcome of the battle. Even the resources a new player is capable of collecting in UO, EVE, Puzzle Pirates etc are of value to veteran players, unlike your standard EQ variant where anything a new player mines or gathers is rather worthless to anything other than a vet's crafting alt.
You are reading 'affect' as 'claim victory' - misinterpretation on your part does not constitute bullshit on mine.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
It all depends on the game mechanics. In the PVP games that I've played - UO, SB, PotBS, EVE, Puzzle Pirates - a new player has just as much chance to affect the battle as a veteran player. Add to that, if you take the policy of not attacking the enemy's low level players, you've just given them free pass to safely transport their goods through your territory.
Wait wait, new players in EvE have "just as much of a chance to affect the battle as the veteran player" ???? I'd really like to see that one explained because I call bullshit.
Good that we actually agree on something lol. I'm calling official bullshit on that one as well.
It all depends on the game mechanics. In the PVP games that I've played - UO, SB, PotBS, EVE, Puzzle Pirates - a new player has just as much chance to affect the battle as a veteran player. Add to that, if you take the policy of not attacking the enemy's low level players, you've just given them free pass to safely transport their goods through your territory.
Wait wait, new players in EvE have "just as much of a chance to affect the battle as the veteran player" ???? I'd really like to see that one explained because I call bullshit.
Good that we actually agree on something lol. I'm calling official bullshit on that one as well.
read 3-4 posts above by me (and the one over yours)
affect the battle does not mean obsolete victory. it means new players can shift the tide of war quite easely
they can shift how an encounter small gang to medium gang will go.
i always bring one or 2 rookies on the field with me, and most of they time they survive. on top of getting their share of the fat loot
It all depends on the game mechanics. In the PVP games that I've played - UO, SB, PotBS, EVE, Puzzle Pirates - a new player has just as much chance to affect the battle as a veteran player. Add to that, if you take the policy of not attacking the enemy's low level players, you've just given them free pass to safely transport their goods through your territory.
Wait wait, new players in EvE have "just as much of a chance to affect the battle as the veteran player" ???? I'd really like to see that one explained because I call bullshit.
Good that we actually agree on something lol. I'm calling official bullshit on that one as well.
It's a shame that people who actually seem to have played the game have already stated otherwise in the thread then really.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
Originally posted by bunnyhopper Originally posted by travdoty
Originally posted by BadSpock
Originally posted by Loktofeit
It all depends on the game mechanics. In the PVP games that I've played - UO, SB, PotBS, EVE, Puzzle Pirates - a new player has just as much chance to affect the battle as a veteran player. Add to that, if you take the policy of not attacking the enemy's low level players, you've just given them free pass to safely transport their goods through your territory.
Wait wait, new players in EvE have "just as much of a chance to affect the battle as the veteran player" ???? I'd really like to see that one explained because I call bullshit. Good that we actually agree on something lol. I'm calling official bullshit on that one as well. It's a shame that people who actually seem to have played the game have already stated otherwise in the thread then really.
Eve seems to have exceptions to a lot of 'rules'. It makes sense that new players should be able to have an impact in the game...otherwise new players would lose interest quickly. It also makes sense that there is a very large safe zone for players who aren't into PvP.
It's just another example of how newbies getting crushed by older players is detrimental to a game. It doesn't just affect the game play for the new players, it affects the game's overall health in a negative way.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
It all depends on the game mechanics. In the PVP games that I've played - UO, SB, PotBS, EVE, Puzzle Pirates - a new player has just as much chance to affect the battle as a veteran player. Add to that, if you take the policy of not attacking the enemy's low level players, you've just given them free pass to safely transport their goods through your territory.
Wait wait, new players in EvE have "just as much of a chance to affect the battle as the veteran player" ???? I'd really like to see that one explained because I call bullshit.
Good that we actually agree on something lol. I'm calling official bullshit on that one as well.
It's a shame that people who actually seem to have played the game have already stated otherwise in the thread then really.
Eve seems to have exceptions to a lot of 'rules'. It makes sense that new players should be able to have an impact in the game...otherwise new players would lose interest quickly. It also makes sense that there is a very large safe zone for players who aren't into PvP.
It's just another example of how newbies getting crushed by older players is detrimental to a game. It doesn't just affect the game play for the new players, it affects the game's overall health in a negative way.
EVE is indeed an exception to many of the rules typically seen in mmos. But it is also one of the most cutthroat games on the market with players going much further then the simple act of ganking a newb.
Mass ganking of the majority of new players can be detrimental to a game, but then that is an extreme which is not so often seen outside of the scare mongering threads you see created by players who have never actually played in ffa games or who have done so for a day or two and thrown a fit when killed on the odd occasion. But yes, it helps to have systems in place to prevent out and out carnage as soon as a player steps into the game so long as the game is progression based.
Of all the aspect of mmos, ffa pvp and full loot is probably the most talked about by people who have never set foot in games with such systems.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
A noob in a frigate with Tech 1 boosters and scramblers is still going to get one shot by that same Battleship/BattleCruisers Drones.
You would be right and EvE would be a MUCH better game if the elder players didn't get 5+ drones on every ship that allow them to easily handle frigates.
Drones pretty much completely negate any advantage a smaller ship has over a bigger ship, and ALSO due to tanking on larger ships and the possible DPS output of smaller ships, that "contribution" a small ship can make to a fight is SO small it's not even worth mentioning.
If you are talking about non-combat contributions, which you are, then I of course agree with you and even history proves of things like children in occupied towns providing intel to resistence fighters etc.
But we're talking about GANKING which means killing lowbie players, and in the COMBAT aspects of newb versus veteran you are COMPLETELY wrong about EvE and UO (I have no experience in the other games)
As part of a FLEET action where you have intercepters and grapplers along with your tanks and DPS / logistics, then the new player can contribute but again, drones mean that if the elder player wants that noob dead, they are dead - period.
If you relying on noobs in Frigates to scram/grapple larger ships then you are counting on those ships getting away because their Drones will chew through any noob in like 5 seconds. So any decent pilot in a cruiser/bcruiser/bship will be fit with their own scramblers and MWD etc. which then makes the noobs grappling worthless.
So the noob isn't going to make any difference - you're bigger ships will either get out tanked/dps'd and die and THEN they'll take care of the annoying fly buzzing around their hull, or they'll use Drones to one shot the noob grapplers and just jump away.
EvE, like all MMORPG's unfortunately, still follows the basics of Linear Statistical Progression which means RPG stats and levels and skill levels etc. which means no matter what you do, VET > NOOB and many/most people are fine with that.
I am not. But that is a WHOLE different discussion.
A noob in a frigate with Tech 1 boosters and scramblers is still going to get one shot by that same Battleship/BattleCruisers Drones.
You would be right and EvE would be a MUCH better game if the elder players didn't get 5+ drones on every ship that allow them to easily handle frigates.
Drones pretty much completely negate any advantage a smaller ship has over a bigger ship, and ALSO due to tanking on larger ships and the possible DPS output of smaller ships, that "contribution" a small ship can make to a fight is SO small it's not even worth mentioning.
If you are talking about non-combat contributions, which you are, then I of course agree with you and even history proves of things like children in occupied towns providing intel to resistence fighters etc.
But we're talking about GANKING which means killing lowbie players, and in the COMBAT aspects of newb versus veteran you are COMPLETELY wrong about EvE and UO (I have no experience in the other games)
As part of a FLEET action where you have intercepters and grapplers along with your tanks and DPS / logistics, then the new player can contribute but again, drones mean that if the elder player wants that noob dead, they are dead - period.
EvE, like all MMORPG's unfortunately, still follows the basics of Linear Statistical Progression which means RPG stats and levels and skill levels etc. which means no matter what you do, VET > NOOB and many/most people are fine with that.
I am not. But that is a WHOLE different discussion.
Why would a newb who is zipping about in a T1 fitted Frig repeatedly go after T2 BS fully fitted with T2 drones all the time?
What exactly are they doing attacking drone boats, more to the point what are they doing getting jumped by slow ass drone boat BS and not getting away?
Where are all these webbing BS drone boats flying about 1.0 space attacking T1 frig pilots with no worthwhile cargo to take?
Drones certainly make life difficult for small ship pilots, but they in no way make them redundant. And EWAR is not an insignificant factor of combat at all.
New players are capable of jumping in combat ships from the get go near enough. They can take down targets if they pick and choose, they can have a good chance of escaping if they get jumped by a hunter and they can take part in larger battles. They can not though attack everyone and everything. They cannot aimlessly fly about lowsec/nullsec. Andt hey will not be deciding any battles but they will be contributing. If people are expecting to lead the charge and be a pivot in mass combat in a progression based game without first 'progressing' then they are in for a shock.
As for ganking, there are numerous methods to use as a newb which can dramatically reduce tha ability of 'vets' to gank your shit up. Nothing is stopping newbs from dropping escape bookmarks all over the place, nothing is stopping them from always staying aligned to escape objects and zipping out of there as soon as trouble comes. Nothing is stopping them from looking at the UI to see exactly who and what is entering the system. There are countless guides out there explaining to new pilots what to do to massively reduce you getting wtfpwned from the off. That people pay no attention to them is their own fault.
Any game with any form of pregression will hand some form of advantage to a veteran player, but then that is the point of progression games is it not? What people are doing here is massively overstating that advantage and massively overstating the ganking of newbs.
People seem to be confusing 'viable' with being able to take on and beat or totally negate any advantage any and every vet player has in a progression based game.
EDIT: For all that though, yes veteran players do have a distinct advantage over newb players.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
Any game with any form of pregression will hand some form of advantage to a veteran player, but then that is the point of progression games is it not?
Exactly.
And I beleive that there is a LOT that is RPG about that progression but not very much that helps out the MMO aspect of the game or any so called MMORPG.
I've believed that since my earliest UO days and with my absolute hatred of EQ.
Unfortunately, people won't even consider a true sandbox MMO which means without RPG progression and instead actual role playing.
The fun part is when you sit on their toons face and say "Haha, I pwned joo noob!" and then they say "(**&&%^ you, you ()&)&)&&&^%^ f^&&07!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I hate you, you ^%$## anbd you can go (@#$%^ your *@$%^&;!!!!!!!
Any game with any form of pregression will hand some form of advantage to a veteran player, but then that is the point of progression games is it not?
Exactly.
And I beleive that there is a LOT that is RPG about that progression but not very much that helps out the MMO aspect of the game or any so called MMORPG.
I've believed that since my earliest UO days and with my absolute hatred of EQ.
Unfortunately, people won't even consider a true sandbox MMO which means without RPG progression and instead actual role playing.
Are you saying you would want an "mmo" which is for all intents and purposes and "mmorpg" (and not a sim like Second Life), which has zero stat/gear progression?
If that is the case, I think quite a few people would like to give that game a try and oddly enough a great many of those people would be pvpers.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
Comments
Question, do you apply your "Its a game" mentality to sports in the park? If you play football with your friends, do you grab the ball and run the "wrong" direction? When you play baseball, do you hit the ball, then try to run the bases backwards? I mean, its a game right? It should be fun to see how upset the other players get when you do this, and then assert that they need help for getting upset at you...
So long, and thanks for all the fish!
It all depends on the game mechanics. In the PVP games that I've played - UO, SB, PotBS, EVE, Puzzle Pirates - a new player has just as much chance to affect the battle as a veteran player. Add to that, if you take the policy of not attacking the enemy's low level players, you've just given them free pass to safely transport their goods through your territory.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Context means everything for this issue.
If a new player somehow found himself in a situation where he stumbles into a PvP zone, it's fair game. Like with Eve, if a new player wanders into low sec space, well, that's their own fault because they had to go out of their way for that to happen. Likewise if a fresh level 85 character wandered into the PvP area of Tol Barad (the world PvP zone in WoW), well, their fault if they get ganked. I honestly don't think many people would argue that walking into an area explicitly labeled for PvP isn't accepting that PvP is going to happen, and that if you get ganked that's just part of it.
What people do take issue with is the extreme opposite end of the spectrum, in which low level players are within an area that is expected to be low risk and meant for their level. However, high level PvPers are instead the ones who go out of their way to track down and gank low level players in the low level areas that are meant for their victims to be in. So it's not a matter of said low level players placing themselves in harms way, but rather the aggressors actively going out of their way to track down victims who aren't in an area that would normally put them in the crosshairs of higher level PvPers.
Wait wait, new players in EvE have "just as much of a chance to affect the battle as the veteran player" ???? I'd really like to see that one explained because I call bullshit.
Actually I'd like to point out that UO, past or present, really doesn't fit in the list either.
You can be viable for pvp in one form or another and able to 'compete' in a relatively short space of time yes. I guess it depends what you mean by 'new players'.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
"Viable" sounds really great...., Spock is right and you know it.
Nerd rage, or child rage? As an adult, unless I gain xp or some type of monetary reward, ganking a lower player is silly.
I believe the whole ganking, player kill frenzy that seems to have ruined group strategy based pvp, such as Warsong Gulch in WoW for example, is generated from the fps military style console games. Many many times, I've seen console kiddies admit to both their age, and their reason for honor kill farming instead of trying to win. "I'm here to have fun and kill players": direct quote.
The console game trained generation need to realize all games aren't for killing each other. Some are there to stimulate what gray matter they have, instead of their energy drink, ADHD fueled trigger finger.
Viable means competitive and able to win. That you expect more than that as a new player in an mmo which is progression based is surprising.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
Let's, for just once, not turn this into a discussion of what newbs should expect. Let's stick to discussing what drives some to shoot fish in a barrel. That reversal is decrepitly old.
«Si oblitus fuero usque ad finem omnia opera eorum»
by affect the battle, he doesnt mean kill everyone and everything on day one.
he means that a new players can make the difference between a win or a loss (or a win or a "damn he got away")
put a new 3 day old player in a frigate with some webs afterburners and scramblers and you have yourself a mean little bugger. i would hate to have one of those flying around my battleship.
let me put it this way, that new player will be able to make a battleship simply float unable to do anything, not even run away. while you simply shoot it until it dies.
never go into pvp battle without a noob by your side
Sometimes it doesn't happen in RL either, like if you're a head of state or something
You are probably used to WOW and battleground type PVP games where the battle consists of nothing other than the moment when the two people are toe to toe smacking each other.
In SB, if you're willing to give my team's newbs a free pass, then I'll send only newbs out to buy up the runes you're guarding.
In PotBS, if you're willing to give my team's newbs a free pass, I'll use them to ship ammunition and ship deeds into the ports you are guarding to sell them to any and all sides that will buy them... at considerable markup.
In UO, we'll just let our newbs loot your corpses.
In any of the games I listed, a new player can transport needed goods, do recon and collect intel, or manipulate markets... all things that affect the outcome of the battle. Even the resources a new player is capable of collecting in UO, EVE, Puzzle Pirates etc are of value to veteran players, unlike your standard EQ variant where anything a new player mines or gathers is rather worthless to anything other than a vet's crafting alt.
You are reading 'affect' as 'claim victory' - misinterpretation on your part does not constitute bullshit on mine.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Good that we actually agree on something lol. I'm calling official bullshit on that one as well.
read 3-4 posts above by me (and the one over yours)
affect the battle does not mean obsolete victory. it means new players can shift the tide of war quite easely
they can shift how an encounter small gang to medium gang will go.
i always bring one or 2 rookies on the field with me, and most of they time they survive. on top of getting their share of the fat loot
It's a shame that people who actually seem to have played the game have already stated otherwise in the thread then really.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
It seems to me that there are differences between catagories of pvp players that are as diverse as the the difference between pvp and pve players.
Some pvp players are, in reality, not playing pvp at all.
I think the correct term might be pdp.. player dominating player.
Wait wait, new players in EvE have "just as much of a chance to affect the battle as the veteran player" ???? I'd really like to see that one explained because I call bullshit.
Good that we actually agree on something lol. I'm calling official bullshit on that one as well.
It's a shame that people who actually seem to have played the game have already stated otherwise in the thread then really.
Eve seems to have exceptions to a lot of 'rules'. It makes sense that new players should be able to have an impact in the game...otherwise new players would lose interest quickly. It also makes sense that there is a very large safe zone for players who aren't into PvP.
It's just another example of how newbies getting crushed by older players is detrimental to a game. It doesn't just affect the game play for the new players, it affects the game's overall health in a negative way.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
EVE is indeed an exception to many of the rules typically seen in mmos. But it is also one of the most cutthroat games on the market with players going much further then the simple act of ganking a newb.
Mass ganking of the majority of new players can be detrimental to a game, but then that is an extreme which is not so often seen outside of the scare mongering threads you see created by players who have never actually played in ffa games or who have done so for a day or two and thrown a fit when killed on the odd occasion. But yes, it helps to have systems in place to prevent out and out carnage as soon as a player steps into the game so long as the game is progression based.
Of all the aspect of mmos, ffa pvp and full loot is probably the most talked about by people who have never set foot in games with such systems.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
It's like freshmen getting bullied, and them bullying the freshmen when they're seniors.
Nobody really wins.
To continue on about EvE...
A noob in a frigate with Tech 1 boosters and scramblers is still going to get one shot by that same Battleship/BattleCruisers Drones.
You would be right and EvE would be a MUCH better game if the elder players didn't get 5+ drones on every ship that allow them to easily handle frigates.
Drones pretty much completely negate any advantage a smaller ship has over a bigger ship, and ALSO due to tanking on larger ships and the possible DPS output of smaller ships, that "contribution" a small ship can make to a fight is SO small it's not even worth mentioning.
If you are talking about non-combat contributions, which you are, then I of course agree with you and even history proves of things like children in occupied towns providing intel to resistence fighters etc.
But we're talking about GANKING which means killing lowbie players, and in the COMBAT aspects of newb versus veteran you are COMPLETELY wrong about EvE and UO (I have no experience in the other games)
As part of a FLEET action where you have intercepters and grapplers along with your tanks and DPS / logistics, then the new player can contribute but again, drones mean that if the elder player wants that noob dead, they are dead - period.
If you relying on noobs in Frigates to scram/grapple larger ships then you are counting on those ships getting away because their Drones will chew through any noob in like 5 seconds. So any decent pilot in a cruiser/bcruiser/bship will be fit with their own scramblers and MWD etc. which then makes the noobs grappling worthless.
So the noob isn't going to make any difference - you're bigger ships will either get out tanked/dps'd and die and THEN they'll take care of the annoying fly buzzing around their hull, or they'll use Drones to one shot the noob grapplers and just jump away.
EvE, like all MMORPG's unfortunately, still follows the basics of Linear Statistical Progression which means RPG stats and levels and skill levels etc. which means no matter what you do, VET > NOOB and many/most people are fine with that.
I am not. But that is a WHOLE different discussion.
Why would a newb who is zipping about in a T1 fitted Frig repeatedly go after T2 BS fully fitted with T2 drones all the time?
What exactly are they doing attacking drone boats, more to the point what are they doing getting jumped by slow ass drone boat BS and not getting away?
Where are all these webbing BS drone boats flying about 1.0 space attacking T1 frig pilots with no worthwhile cargo to take?
Drones certainly make life difficult for small ship pilots, but they in no way make them redundant. And EWAR is not an insignificant factor of combat at all.
New players are capable of jumping in combat ships from the get go near enough. They can take down targets if they pick and choose, they can have a good chance of escaping if they get jumped by a hunter and they can take part in larger battles. They can not though attack everyone and everything. They cannot aimlessly fly about lowsec/nullsec. Andt hey will not be deciding any battles but they will be contributing. If people are expecting to lead the charge and be a pivot in mass combat in a progression based game without first 'progressing' then they are in for a shock.
As for ganking, there are numerous methods to use as a newb which can dramatically reduce tha ability of 'vets' to gank your shit up. Nothing is stopping newbs from dropping escape bookmarks all over the place, nothing is stopping them from always staying aligned to escape objects and zipping out of there as soon as trouble comes. Nothing is stopping them from looking at the UI to see exactly who and what is entering the system. There are countless guides out there explaining to new pilots what to do to massively reduce you getting wtfpwned from the off. That people pay no attention to them is their own fault.
Any game with any form of pregression will hand some form of advantage to a veteran player, but then that is the point of progression games is it not? What people are doing here is massively overstating that advantage and massively overstating the ganking of newbs.
People seem to be confusing 'viable' with being able to take on and beat or totally negate any advantage any and every vet player has in a progression based game.
EDIT: For all that though, yes veteran players do have a distinct advantage over newb players.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
Exactly.
And I beleive that there is a LOT that is RPG about that progression but not very much that helps out the MMO aspect of the game or any so called MMORPG.
I've believed that since my earliest UO days and with my absolute hatred of EQ.
Unfortunately, people won't even consider a true sandbox MMO which means without RPG progression and instead actual role playing.
The fun part is when you sit on their toons face and say "Haha, I pwned joo noob!" and then they say "(**&&%^ you, you ()&)&)&&&^%^ f^&&07!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I hate you, you ^%$## anbd you can go (@#$%^ your *@$%^&;!!!!!!!
Are you saying you would want an "mmo" which is for all intents and purposes and "mmorpg" (and not a sim like Second Life), which has zero stat/gear progression?
If that is the case, I think quite a few people would like to give that game a try and oddly enough a great many of those people would be pvpers.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."