Actually I am dead serious. My server in WOW has always been great and my guid too. To me, I do not take the entire game's community into account - the community is what I experience. I am proactive about dealing with the community too - I know the city wide channels leave a lot to be desired so I leave them. Just like I do not post on Yahoo news article about politics or religion.
Basically, my experiences in WOW are fine and while its not that great of a community as some other games, Vanguard and DAOC come to mind, its a lot better than others. My worst community experiences have been in LOTRO to be honest.
So the community in WoW is great as long as you -
A) Turn off the chat channels *boggle*
Only consider one server, and not the overall community
C) Don't compare it to many other games
Always good to read the fine print when someone makes an argument, I guess. The point is that some games actuallly do have good overall communities associated with them, where you don't need to turn off chat channels or ignore the wider community. Those communities form because of the type of player who is drawn to the game (which has everything to do with the game itself), and the way the game (and the developer) fosters and encourages community. It has nothing at all to do with the game's payment model. It has been shown beyond a shadow of a doubt that asshats are perfectly willing to pay $15 a month just like everyone else.
Without going into anothing whole discussion, I'll just say that some games' mechanics foster meeting new people, encourage interdependance and social play, and players being accountable for their actions. These types of games will have stronger, longer-lasting, more mature communities surrounding them.
Other games foster playing in groups of people you already know (segregated content for cliques), and allow for a high level of independence and complete annonymity for individuals. These games will generally have lousy or highly transient communities. Looking at the basic design of a game, and the vision or philosophy behind it, provides a much better way to predict the type of community that will surround a game over the long term. Paying $15 a month, again, does nothing to improve a community that surrounds the latter type of game I mentioned above.
WoW is an exception to almost every rule but in my opinion and I am entitiled to mine just as you are yours P2P games have a better community. In my experience since playing Everquest in 1999 I have noticed this through the years and the examples of F2P games having a good community were also P2P games before becoming F2P and that is a significant point in their favour.
I won't claim to know the numbers involved with F2P vs. B2P vs. P2P, so I won't refute the "facts" that most of you seem to be throwing about, seeing that much of it is being pulled out of your collective asses to start with. But I will give one reason why I prefer non-subscription to the others: convenience.
I played CoX and paid a sub for it and was happy. I came back last year for a couple of months, paid a sub fee and was mostly happy. I wasn't going to resub again because, although I wouldn't mind spending a few hours in there now and again, I didn't feel it was worth subbing for -- neither the money nor the bother of reactivating my account.
So it seems that the cash shop model, at least here, is fuelled by lazy super casuals. Who woulda thunk?
I'll say it again; If folks want to play multiple MMORPGs (an idea thats alien to me I admit) at the same time... well, thats their choice. I don't say don't do it, but I am sick of game hoppers with no investment or long term interest using that choice to justify ruining MMORPGs with cash shops.
These are the same guys that ruined these games with super ez-mode btw. They are like a cancer to everything that makes gaming challenging and interesting.
And I know you said later on in your post Unlight that money was 'mostly immaterial' in your choice to play a game, but you contradicted that in the red highlighted part here. You suggest here that it is actually half of the barrier to you. Make up your mind?
Well all I can say is that the people behind GW2 are getting cash from another source to fund servers, and pay the staff..
Box sales alone wont last forever and yes running a server with lots of people on costs money, paying staff costs money, developnig and patching the game costs money... it all does. Most companies will get that cash from subscriptions... I guess the people behind GW2 get it from doing other things..
I dont pretend to know how they get the cash but they obviously do.
You're forgetting that "most companies" also charge for their boxes and have cash shops, along with their subscriptions. Again, we aren't comparing a subscritpion to no subscription in a vacuum. Most companies "get the cash" in every way they can. We're simply discussing whether subscription fee, among all the other revenue streams that are utilized, is a necessity. Obviously it isn't.
I'm still waiting for someone to tell me what the recent subscription MMORPGs will / do offer that GW2 will not. Other than a completely subjective bias based entirely on anecdotal evidence. Maybe we could compare GW2 directly with Rift, and see how much LESS Rift is offering, as a subscription game, compared to what GW2 will offer without a subscription.
Subscription has never been significant in my decision to play a game. I will not decide to play a game just because it has no sub. Neither does the value for the amount I pay come into it as long as I have fun. I have noticed that Vanguard has an amazing community and that I think is because it is very small and at one point so did Everquest 2 . I think games that are not doing well actually have better communities. Pity really.
I don't want to debate if F2P game developers are equally greedy as others becuse I don't care, its business and they are all in it for the money.
What I do care is my own money and how much value for money I get at the end of the day. Paying $15/month means $180/year which is 3 x the box price (of $60) and that is aproximately how much new content/year I expect to see in return.
Thinking that customer support needs to be extra charged is silly. If you want to do it then by all means don't let me stop you, but good CS is what I as a customer expect from any respectable developer, just like having a polished game at launch. I think history of MMOs has proven how easily will players turn their back to unpolished games with lousy support.
The fact that you cannot see the difference between people buying content to support a company and people paying $15 with no guarantee of any new content for that money is hilarious. Do you just pay a store when you go in to buy clothes on the off chance that they will have clothes you like next month? God I love the reasoning and logic people use on forums it is the best! If you believe that I will start a store and you all can come give me $15 a month and I might get stuff in sometimes that you will like and other times you might not, but as long as you are willing to keep giving me $15 a month I will be happy.
Well, way I see it, you've been suckered too.
For some gamers, the $15 a month is to support the company that makes the game they like to play. Sub games are not built around a MT model. I've been watching ANet go on and on about how sub fees are greedy for a couple of years now. Well, sub fees are at least transparent. If ANet want to provide top-notch support and great future content, then they have to pay wages and development costs. It's extremely naive to think that they don't intend to defray those costs by diving into their customers' pockets in some way.
Sure, some people can play witout paying, indeed lots of people can. But there will always be those who spend double or triple a yearly sub rate in buying fripperies from cash shops (Rhianna's hair comes to mind for some reason...). Yeah, their money, their business - but they're funding someone elses's free ride. Subs are a more equitable model because they spread those charges out among all players.
By ANet's logic, everyone should be playing F2P games (taking it a step futher than their B2P model), but the F2P model is looked down on by gamers for a lot of reasons.
I fully intend to buy and play GW2, btw. I'm just tired of the holier than thou tone ANet have adopted on this, and frankly, I just don't believe them. I'm a cynic, I know, no need to point it out to me. I'm cynical about a lot of things. I'm happy to be proven wrong but the onus is on ANet and not forum posters to do so.
If mmorpgs would be like they were 8 years or so ago - no cash shops, everything obtainable in game by PLAYING it, lots of content, interesting gameplay, devs constantly working on adding more content, then i'd be happy to pay these $15 a month.
But now, when you have to deal with cash shops on top of your subscription fee, it's a bit of a difficult question.
I wonder what will the cash shop look like in GW2, will it be "just vanity items" or more... Maybe a game like GW2 could convert me from a subscription model fan to a Buy2play or even quality free2play fan.
Sure, some people can play witout paying, indeed lots of people can. But there will always be those who spend double or triple a yearly sub rate in buying fripperies from cash shops (Rhianna's hair comes to mind for some reason...). Yeah, their money, their business - but they're funding someone elses's free ride. Subs are a more equitable model because they spread those charges out among all players.
Again, you are ignoring the fact that most subscription-based games ALSO have a MT shop.
So you advocate for socialism within the context of an online game? You feel it is "more fair" for everyone to pay whether they use a particular cosmetic or service, rather than people paying for what they use? I would argue that having the choice is more fair. If I don't want those cosmetic items that are available in the cash shop, or I want to earn them myself within the context of the game... I don't have to pay additional money for them. Why should I pay a subscription fee so that you can have a bunch of cosmetic items I don't care about? I don't see that as fair at all.
The main thrust of the article in the original post had to do with how the payment model of an MMO informs / affects the game's design. This is something nobody in the thread has really discussed yet. The article makes a good case based on the differences the author sees between the design of GW2 and other MMORPGs. I feel like ArenaNet has MORE incentive to facilitate a great community and provide good customer service and an awesome experience within the game. They need players to buy expansions, and getting players to buy another box requires a pretty high level of loyalty on the part of the consumer. Rather than dragging your players along by the toe through timesinks and endgame grinding to keep their subscription fee rolling in, ArenaNet can focus completely on providing an awesome self-contained and complete experience in each box that will make players want to buy the next one.
Well all I can say is that the people behind GW2 are getting cash from another source to fund servers, and pay the staff..
Box sales alone wont last forever and yes running a server with lots of people on costs money, paying staff costs money, developnig and patching the game costs money... it all does. Most companies will get that cash from subscriptions... I guess the people behind GW2 get it from doing other things..
I dont pretend to know how they get the cash but they obviously do.
You're forgetting that "most companies" also charge for their boxes and have cash shops, along with their subscriptions. Again, we aren't comparing a subscritpion to no subscription in a vacuum. Most companies "get the cash" in every way they can. We're simply discussing whether subscription fee, among all the other revenue streams that are utilized, is a necessity. Obviously it isn't.
I'm still waiting for someone to tell me what the recent subscription MMORPGs will / do offer that GW2 will not. Other than a completely subjective bias based entirely on anecdotal evidence. Maybe we could compare GW2 directly with Rift, and see how much LESS Rift is offering, as a subscription game, compared to what GW2 will offer without a subscription.
They all said the same thing about the origional GW, and we know thats pretty far from a standard MMO. I have yet to test GW2 but I am not over hyped about it.. This is the same old argument from back then..
Also most sub games I play dont actually have a shop just a sub.. most games that have a sub and shop tend to be wow clones that i steer clear of so i cant really comment on those..
Also as we know very little on how GW2 will play when everyone jumps on the servers I cant really comment about that either.
Thats why i was saying they will get their cash some way no matter what.. be it box sales + shop, box sales + sub, box sales + sub + shop.. wahtever in the end most people will probally end up spending just as much on the game each month so it dont realyl matter.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I think talk is cheap .Let me actually see what GW 2 manages before I can comment on how well the idea works. I also believe that each game will still be decided on its own merits. Even if the b2p model works that does not mean every game with that model is going to be good.
I also think that sub and f2p choice works.I play D&DO and I pay a sub. I enjoy that game a lot.
FULL access to ALL content (and, yes, Fluff IS content) that is EARNABLE by PLAYING the game (in theory).
So, basically, the stuff GW2 will provide you without a sub fee.[ In theory]
Interesting.
Remains to be seen whether or not ArenaNet can operate a AAA MMORPG on a no -sub model.
As ofhers have said, if they do pull it off, it's likely to change the landscape of MMO payment models significantly.
Also GW2 will probally have a shop and yeah you might not have to buy from it but to keep up with other people you will probally ahve to spend at least $10 a month or somthing.. so most people will end up paying the same amount anyway each month..
FULL access to ALL content (and, yes, Fluff IS content) that is EARNABLE by PLAYING the game (in theory).
So, basically, the stuff GW2 will provide you without a sub fee.[ In theory]
Interesting.
Remains to be seen whether or not ArenaNet can operate a AAA MMORPG on a no -sub model.
As ofhers have said, if they do pull it off, it's likely to change the landscape of MMO payment models significantly.
Also GW2 will probally have a shop and yeah you might not have to buy from it but to keep up with other people you will probally ahve to spend at least $10 a month or somthing.. so most people will end up paying the same amount anyway each month..
Even if you don't want to spend the time to get informed about the game by reading or watching any of the massive amount of available info about GW2...at least read the thread in which you are posting. People have already pointed out multiple times that GW2 will indeed have a MT shop, and that it will contain only cosmetic items (which provide no advantage over other players) and account services. There will be no need to spend any money at all to "keep up" with anyone else in any way.
GW2 is a completely different animal from Guild Wars...a little research would go a long way to prove to you that it's not the "same old" discussion.
Exactly most f2p is absolute rubbish. I cannot ever see myself pay for them. However games like LotRO,DDO and EQ 2 were all P2P so they are definitely a cut above the usual f2p. Guildwars was a good game although very lobby like but still I enjoyed it let's see what they do with GW 2.
FULL access to ALL content (and, yes, Fluff IS content) that is EARNABLE by PLAYING the game (in theory).
So, basically, the stuff GW2 will provide you without a sub fee.[ In theory]
Interesting.
Remains to be seen whether or not ArenaNet can operate a AAA MMORPG on a no -sub model.
As ofhers have said, if they do pull it off, it's likely to change the landscape of MMO payment models significantly.
Also GW2 will probally have a shop and yeah you might not have to buy from it but to keep up with other people you will probally ahve to spend at least $10 a month or somthing.. so most people will end up paying the same amount anyway each month..
Even if you don't want to spend the time to get informed about the game by reading or watching any of the massive amount of available info about GW2...at least read the thread in which you are posting. People have already pointed out multiple times that GW2 will indeed have a MT shop, and that it will contain only cosmetic items (which provide no advantage over other players) and account services. There will be no need to spend any money at all to "keep up" with anyone else in any way.
GW2 is a completely different animal from Guild Wars...a little research would go a long way to prove to you that it's not the "same old" discussion.
sorry never really get time to read the hole thread as im in work and should be working haha... anyway i will be very suprised if it stays that way but will ahve to wait and see.
Exactly most f2p is absolute rubbish. I cannot ever see myself pay for them. However games like LotRO,DDO and EQ 2 were all P2P so they are definitely a cut above the usual f2p. Guildwars was a good game although very lobby like but still I enjoyed it let's see what they do with GW 2.
totally agree.. i spent many hours playing GW hehe
GW2 is on my list of games to get just not getting too excited about it
Sorry but I am not going to let you off that easily. No it didnt get better. Writing a non-coherent post does not excuse claims that JS or Anet make other developers look like crimminals when JS actual quotes states that the subscription model is a viable model. His quote nor any of Anet's quotes have ever said that other developers are crimminals like you are insinuating. You incorrectly interpeted that by others posters use of the word greed. That does not make JS or Anet guility of your charge.
You're not going to let me off? ROFl..
I was trying to settle this discusion civil like... Yet you're still dragging it on (did you even read my PM?). I did not mean that post to say JS has made anyone look like a criminal, I was saying that is what players have taken away from it. You said yourself you agree with that, do we really have to keep going back in forth with this?
Please don't tell me what I mean with a post, I know what I mean, all you're doing is putting words in my mouth. I've said once maybe what i said didn't come out right, if that's not good enough for you so be it, I have nothing to prove here.
My discussion (with you) had nothing to do with Mike's post on my end, it sparked because of what you said about WOW, that's where my arguments with your assertion took off, if you've been arguing with me based on someone else's post, that just makes no sense at all.
Might have to use that block feature, I'd suggest you do the same.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
If mmo company's deliver worthy content in any form then its justified, but <---the BUT word again ^^
But in alot of cases its not worth the money.
Look at the mighty wow, their income is so huge they could hire 10 diffrent company's and still make a profit.
Instead alot of people are complaining about the time it takes for content to be released.
Not only that but alot of issues are floating to the surface with Cataclysm.
I found out Cata aint worth my money and quited playing and started up Eve.
Another story but same rules apply Eve and WoW both require subs. but Eve delivers such more quality atm and their expansions are free to play.
Guildwars 2 might show the world that their free to play system and quality surpass that of Eve and WoW and time will tell if thats true.
If they succeed in that then other company's need to scratch their ass and check in the mirror what the hell thei where doing all that time.
We know it, pure milking out players for as long as you can and promise a better this and better that and keep that carrot on a stick up as high as you can.
Arenanet cant sit back after their new warmachine is launched instead they need to work twice as hard to make an worty expansion.
Or people wont but it and walk away or keep playing the vanila game.
If you ask me what will be the future i would say Arenanet buy to play method crushes pay to play methods.
Their webshop only sell cosmetic stuff who do not affect any balance in the game not in PVE or PVP.
sorry never really get time to read the hole thread as im in work and should be working haha... anyway i will be very suprised if it stays that way but will ahve to wait and see.
LOL
That's no excuse, I'm at work also! Underfilling these BGAs is taking dramatically longer than it really should.
And you're totally right. We'll have to wait and see. There is a tremendous amount of in-depth info available about the game already, however. Tons of people have played it...it's not totally an academic discussion at this point.
sorry never really get time to read the hole thread as im in work and should be working haha... anyway i will be very suprised if it stays that way but will ahve to wait and see.
LOL
That's no excuse, I'm at work also! Underfilling these BGAs is taking dramatically longer than it really should.
And you're totally right. We'll have to wait and see. There is a tremendous amount of in-depth info available about the game already, however. Tons of people have played it...it's not totally an academic discussion at this point.
True i should spend some time on youtube checking out all the info balls to this exchange rollout its boring LOL
I want this to work because if more games start offering this, I never have to make the decision to unsub (losing all access to the game I already probably paid $50 for (plus sub for however long I've had it, plus any expansions). When I buy Guild Wars 2, the game remains mine to access and enjoy. If I want access to expansions, I can buy those and they are then mine.
Legal jargon that actually points out nothing I've purchased is mine aside, as an MMO player, I would rather buy to play, even if it means I pay the exact same amount per month that I would have ended up paying had I bought the box and expansions and then subbed to a game.
Bonus if I end up actually paying less.
I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
Comments
So the community in WoW is great as long as you -
A) Turn off the chat channels *boggle*
C) Don't compare it to many other games
Without going into anothing whole discussion, I'll just say that some games' mechanics foster meeting new people, encourage interdependance and social play, and players being accountable for their actions. These types of games will have stronger, longer-lasting, more mature communities surrounding them.
Other games foster playing in groups of people you already know (segregated content for cliques), and allow for a high level of independence and complete annonymity for individuals. These games will generally have lousy or highly transient communities. Looking at the basic design of a game, and the vision or philosophy behind it, provides a much better way to predict the type of community that will surround a game over the long term. Paying $15 a month, again, does nothing to improve a community that surrounds the latter type of game I mentioned above.
WoW is an exception to almost every rule but in my opinion and I am entitiled to mine just as you are yours P2P games have a better community. In my experience since playing Everquest in 1999 I have noticed this through the years and the examples of F2P games having a good community were also P2P games before becoming F2P and that is a significant point in their favour.
So it seems that the cash shop model, at least here, is fuelled by lazy super casuals. Who woulda thunk?
I'll say it again; If folks want to play multiple MMORPGs (an idea thats alien to me I admit) at the same time... well, thats their choice. I don't say don't do it, but I am sick of game hoppers with no investment or long term interest using that choice to justify ruining MMORPGs with cash shops.
These are the same guys that ruined these games with super ez-mode btw. They are like a cancer to everything that makes gaming challenging and interesting.
And I know you said later on in your post Unlight that money was 'mostly immaterial' in your choice to play a game, but you contradicted that in the red highlighted part here. You suggest here that it is actually half of the barrier to you. Make up your mind?
You're forgetting that "most companies" also charge for their boxes and have cash shops, along with their subscriptions. Again, we aren't comparing a subscritpion to no subscription in a vacuum. Most companies "get the cash" in every way they can. We're simply discussing whether subscription fee, among all the other revenue streams that are utilized, is a necessity. Obviously it isn't.
I'm still waiting for someone to tell me what the recent subscription MMORPGs will / do offer that GW2 will not. Other than a completely subjective bias based entirely on anecdotal evidence. Maybe we could compare GW2 directly with Rift, and see how much LESS Rift is offering, as a subscription game, compared to what GW2 will offer without a subscription.
Subscription has never been significant in my decision to play a game. I will not decide to play a game just because it has no sub. Neither does the value for the amount I pay come into it as long as I have fun. I have noticed that Vanguard has an amazing community and that I think is because it is very small and at one point so did Everquest 2 . I think games that are not doing well actually have better communities. Pity really.
I don't want to debate if F2P game developers are equally greedy as others becuse I don't care, its business and they are all in it for the money.
What I do care is my own money and how much value for money I get at the end of the day. Paying $15/month means $180/year which is 3 x the box price (of $60) and that is aproximately how much new content/year I expect to see in return.
Thinking that customer support needs to be extra charged is silly. If you want to do it then by all means don't let me stop you, but good CS is what I as a customer expect from any respectable developer, just like having a polished game at launch. I think history of MMOs has proven how easily will players turn their back to unpolished games with lousy support.
Well, way I see it, you've been suckered too.
For some gamers, the $15 a month is to support the company that makes the game they like to play. Sub games are not built around a MT model. I've been watching ANet go on and on about how sub fees are greedy for a couple of years now. Well, sub fees are at least transparent. If ANet want to provide top-notch support and great future content, then they have to pay wages and development costs. It's extremely naive to think that they don't intend to defray those costs by diving into their customers' pockets in some way.
Sure, some people can play witout paying, indeed lots of people can. But there will always be those who spend double or triple a yearly sub rate in buying fripperies from cash shops (Rhianna's hair comes to mind for some reason...). Yeah, their money, their business - but they're funding someone elses's free ride. Subs are a more equitable model because they spread those charges out among all players.
By ANet's logic, everyone should be playing F2P games (taking it a step futher than their B2P model), but the F2P model is looked down on by gamers for a lot of reasons.
I fully intend to buy and play GW2, btw. I'm just tired of the holier than thou tone ANet have adopted on this, and frankly, I just don't believe them. I'm a cynic, I know, no need to point it out to me. I'm cynical about a lot of things. I'm happy to be proven wrong but the onus is on ANet and not forum posters to do so.
If mmorpgs would be like they were 8 years or so ago - no cash shops, everything obtainable in game by PLAYING it, lots of content, interesting gameplay, devs constantly working on adding more content, then i'd be happy to pay these $15 a month.
But now, when you have to deal with cash shops on top of your subscription fee, it's a bit of a difficult question.
I wonder what will the cash shop look like in GW2, will it be "just vanity items" or more... Maybe a game like GW2 could convert me from a subscription model fan to a Buy2play or even quality free2play fan.
Again, you are ignoring the fact that most subscription-based games ALSO have a MT shop.
So you advocate for socialism within the context of an online game? You feel it is "more fair" for everyone to pay whether they use a particular cosmetic or service, rather than people paying for what they use? I would argue that having the choice is more fair. If I don't want those cosmetic items that are available in the cash shop, or I want to earn them myself within the context of the game... I don't have to pay additional money for them. Why should I pay a subscription fee so that you can have a bunch of cosmetic items I don't care about? I don't see that as fair at all.
The main thrust of the article in the original post had to do with how the payment model of an MMO informs / affects the game's design. This is something nobody in the thread has really discussed yet. The article makes a good case based on the differences the author sees between the design of GW2 and other MMORPGs. I feel like ArenaNet has MORE incentive to facilitate a great community and provide good customer service and an awesome experience within the game. They need players to buy expansions, and getting players to buy another box requires a pretty high level of loyalty on the part of the consumer. Rather than dragging your players along by the toe through timesinks and endgame grinding to keep their subscription fee rolling in, ArenaNet can focus completely on providing an awesome self-contained and complete experience in each box that will make players want to buy the next one.
They all said the same thing about the origional GW, and we know thats pretty far from a standard MMO. I have yet to test GW2 but I am not over hyped about it.. This is the same old argument from back then..
Also most sub games I play dont actually have a shop just a sub.. most games that have a sub and shop tend to be wow clones that i steer clear of so i cant really comment on those..
Also as we know very little on how GW2 will play when everyone jumps on the servers I cant really comment about that either.
Thats why i was saying they will get their cash some way no matter what.. be it box sales + shop, box sales + sub, box sales + sub + shop.. wahtever in the end most people will probally end up spending just as much on the game each month so it dont realyl matter.
Remains to be seen whether or not ArenaNet can operate a AAA MMORPG on a no -sub model.
As ofhers have said, if they do pull it off, it's likely to change the landscape of MMO payment models significantly.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I think talk is cheap .Let me actually see what GW 2 manages before I can comment on how well the idea works. I also believe that each game will still be decided on its own merits. Even if the b2p model works that does not mean every game with that model is going to be good.
I also think that sub and f2p choice works.I play D&DO and I pay a sub. I enjoy that game a lot.
Also GW2 will probally have a shop and yeah you might not have to buy from it but to keep up with other people you will probally ahve to spend at least $10 a month or somthing.. so most people will end up paying the same amount anyway each month..
yep, F2P providers will realise they can charge a box price in the West for what they thought they had to give away before.
Not sure how this is better for anyone but them though.
Well most f2p games are a pile of junk that no one would really pay anything more.. so i cant see that happening or well lets hope not lol
Even if you don't want to spend the time to get informed about the game by reading or watching any of the massive amount of available info about GW2...at least read the thread in which you are posting. People have already pointed out multiple times that GW2 will indeed have a MT shop, and that it will contain only cosmetic items (which provide no advantage over other players) and account services. There will be no need to spend any money at all to "keep up" with anyone else in any way.
GW2 is a completely different animal from Guild Wars...a little research would go a long way to prove to you that it's not the "same old" discussion.
Exactly most f2p is absolute rubbish. I cannot ever see myself pay for them. However games like LotRO,DDO and EQ 2 were all P2P so they are definitely a cut above the usual f2p. Guildwars was a good game although very lobby like but still I enjoyed it let's see what they do with GW 2.
sorry never really get time to read the hole thread as im in work and should be working haha... anyway i will be very suprised if it stays that way
but will ahve to wait and see.
totally agree.. i spent many hours playing GW hehe
GW2 is on my list of games to get just not getting too excited about it
You're not going to let me off? ROFl..
I was trying to settle this discusion civil like... Yet you're still dragging it on (did you even read my PM?). I did not mean that post to say JS has made anyone look like a criminal, I was saying that is what players have taken away from it. You said yourself you agree with that, do we really have to keep going back in forth with this?
Please don't tell me what I mean with a post, I know what I mean, all you're doing is putting words in my mouth. I've said once maybe what i said didn't come out right, if that's not good enough for you so be it, I have nothing to prove here.
My discussion (with you) had nothing to do with Mike's post on my end, it sparked because of what you said about WOW, that's where my arguments with your assertion took off, if you've been arguing with me based on someone else's post, that just makes no sense at all.
Might have to use that block feature, I'd suggest you do the same.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
If mmo company's deliver worthy content in any form then its justified, but <---the BUT word again ^^
But in alot of cases its not worth the money.
Look at the mighty wow, their income is so huge they could hire 10 diffrent company's and still make a profit.
Instead alot of people are complaining about the time it takes for content to be released.
Not only that but alot of issues are floating to the surface with Cataclysm.
I found out Cata aint worth my money and quited playing and started up Eve.
Another story but same rules apply Eve and WoW both require subs. but Eve delivers such more quality atm and their expansions are free to play.
Guildwars 2 might show the world that their free to play system and quality surpass that of Eve and WoW and time will tell if thats true.
If they succeed in that then other company's need to scratch their ass and check in the mirror what the hell thei where doing all that time.
We know it, pure milking out players for as long as you can and promise a better this and better that and keep that carrot on a stick up as high as you can.
Arenanet cant sit back after their new warmachine is launched instead they need to work twice as hard to make an worty expansion.
Or people wont but it and walk away or keep playing the vanila game.
If you ask me what will be the future i would say Arenanet buy to play method crushes pay to play methods.
Their webshop only sell cosmetic stuff who do not affect any balance in the game not in PVE or PVP.
Awesome concept if you ask me
LOL
That's no excuse, I'm at work also! Underfilling these BGAs is taking dramatically longer than it really should.
And you're totally right. We'll have to wait and see. There is a tremendous amount of in-depth info available about the game already, however. Tons of people have played it...it's not totally an academic discussion at this point.
True i should spend some time on youtube checking out all the info
balls to this exchange rollout its boring LOL 
I want this to work because if more games start offering this, I never have to make the decision to unsub (losing all access to the game I already probably paid $50 for (plus sub for however long I've had it, plus any expansions). When I buy Guild Wars 2, the game remains mine to access and enjoy. If I want access to expansions, I can buy those and they are then mine.
Legal jargon that actually points out nothing I've purchased is mine aside, as an MMO player, I would rather buy to play, even if it means I pay the exact same amount per month that I would have ended up paying had I bought the box and expansions and then subbed to a game.
Bonus if I end up actually paying less.
I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
~Albert Einstein