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MMOs with subscription fees... what are you paying for?

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  • Johnie-MarzJohnie-Marz Member UncommonPosts: 865

    Originally posted by empyros

    Some of the responses in this thread make the economist in me weep.

    Seriously, take a basic level economy class, and then say "It's only $.50 a day".

     

    Seriously, whenever I think of MMO players, "a fool and his money are easily parted" comes to mind.

     

    I pay  over a  100$   a month for my cable entertainment and yet there have been times I play my 15 a month MMO just as  much as I watch TV.

    a DVD cost 15 dollars 2 hours of entertainment

    a Harcover book 25 dollars for 10 hours of entertainment

    14.95, for an MMO, even if I only played it one hour a day that is 30 hours of entertainment.

    How am I being foolish with my entertainment dollar?

    f2p nickel and dimes you, they make MORE money when they go f2p than when they had a subscription. Just because it is called FREE TO PLAY don't think it isn't more expensive.

    Go ahead and play f2p but just remember the same addage "a fool and his money are easily parted" That is the basis of f2p.

  • ZoeMcCloskeyZoeMcCloskey Member UncommonPosts: 1,372

    Originally posted by Johnie-Marz

    Originally posted by empyros

    Some of the responses in this thread make the economist in me weep.

    Seriously, take a basic level economy class, and then say "It's only $.50 a day".

     

    Seriously, whenever I think of MMO players, "a fool and his money are easily parted" comes to mind.

     

    I pay  over a  100$   a month for my cable entertainment and yet there have been times I play my 15 a month MMO just as  much as I watch TV.

    a DVD cost 15 dollars 2 hours of entertainment

    a Harcover book 25 dollars for 10 hours of entertainment

    14.95, for an MMO, even if I only played it one hour a day that is 30 hours of entertainment.

    How am I being foolish with my entertainment dollar?

    f2p nickel and dimes you, they make MORE money when they go f2p than when they had a subscription. Just because it is called FREE TO PLAY don't think it isn't more expensive.

    Go ahead and play f2p but just remember the same addage "a fool and his money are easily parted" That is the basis of f2p.

    /win

    I never get anyone saying omg $15/month for an MMO, outrageous :P  MMOs are some of the most bang for your buck entertainment you can get, period.

     

    f2p games are 100% based on a fool and his money are soon parted

    p2p games are 100% based on paying for a service and expecting quality in return

    image
  • kitaradkitarad Member LegendaryPosts: 8,178

    F2P when you do not pay for the content  or item or skill or class and have to work for it ,is horrible .The grind is long and I do not enjoy just getting points or tokens just so I can unlock something which if I pay I can get. So that path of trying to squeeze every bit of enjoyment out of questing or playing by making me grind to get content just turns me off. That is not fun in my book. 

     

    LoTRO had a better community before it went F2P .I played it both before and after and I saw a noticeable coldness set in on the RP server. People became less helpful and more sarcastic responding to the chat. It cannot be helped but games that were P2P that went f2p always start off with a good community so using them as an example to demonstrate f2p community is not really pertinent. 

     

    WoW is truly an aberration it is the horror it is becuase of its success and is an exception to the rule on communities.

  • MadimorgaMadimorga Member UncommonPosts: 1,920

    And in the race for which up and coming MMO Madi is drooling over more, Guild Wars 2 is now just a nose ahead of The Secret World.  Next week it will probably be the other way around again.  Too bad neither of these looks to make it out the door before 2012.  Drat it.

    image

    I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.

    ~Albert Einstein

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Member EpicPosts: 6,601

    F2P games are about only paying for what I want - very reasonable

    P2P games are about paying for a whole lot of things I don't want - completley rediculous.

    Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
  • psyfighterpsyfighter Member Posts: 50

    no pay fee till new star wars comes out if it flops no more money from me big hopes on old R

  • waynejr2waynejr2 Member EpicPosts: 7,771

    Originally posted by Volkon

    Great article at Gamasutra

    http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/37537/Opinion_Guild_Wars_2_Fights_The_Subscription_Racket.php

     

    Makes you wonder what those subscription fees are really there for, besides greed that is.

     

    THere are free games on the market.  Makes you wonder why you have to pay for Guild Wars 2?  What is that for if not the greed?

    http://www.youhaventlived.com/qblog/2010/QBlog190810A.html  

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    Kyleran:  "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."

    John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."

    FreddyNoNose:  "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."

    LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"




  • laseritlaserit Member LegendaryPosts: 7,591

    Originally posted by vesavius

    What am I paying for in a sub game?

     

    An active team of GMs (in theory)

    Stability and maintenence (in theory)

    Ongoing development (in theory).

    An even playing field (in theory).

    FULL access to ALL content (and, yes, Fluff IS content) that is EARNABLE by PLAYING the game (in theory).

    This is what I hope I'm paying for. Now alot of people argue that $15 a month is cheap entertainment and I agree. BUT...

    What are the profit margins on a successful title? I have no problem with people making money. You regular everyday small business makes 8%-12% on average, if you make 15% your doing a hell of a job.

    What I have a problem with, is that I believe This industry as a whole is doing a hell of a lot better then that. Infact I would argue that some of the most successful ones (not gonna name names) are pulling in around the 75%-80% margin, before taxes of course.

    If you look at the professional sports and entertainment industry as a whole. I find them to be one of the most greedy IMHO

    "Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee

  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,183

    Originally posted by just1opinion

    You're either very well off financially,  you live with Mommy and Daddy still,  or you actually ARE married, but your wife is the one who writes out (or pays online) all the bills every month.  Because no one with any amount of common sense or responsibilities in life, would say "$15.00 is NOTHING...."   That's just ridiculous.  Now, I'm not saying it's a fortune or anything, but to say it's NOTHING proves you don't know much in the way of costs and paying bills.  Furthermore, for my family gaming will cost 30-45 dollars a month since there are 3 of us, so it's not a matter of 15 bucks, but a question of priorities and let's see....do we want Showtime or Netflix or gaming?  It requires, at least for US.....making a choice.....because 15 dollars IS SOMETHING.

     

    Cocky privileged attitudes just reek, if you ask me.  If you're so well to do that 15 dollars is nothing to you, that's fine, but don't make it a declaration for the world as if 15 bucks should be "nothing" to EVERYONE.  That's just arrogant and ignorant.

    On the flip side if you can't afford it don't berate others who can. I find it silly that you're generalizing as you are here as well. $15.00 a month isn't much, even for people like my girlfriend and I. I am in no way wealthy or priviledged, don't live with my parents and I know what it is like to pay bills, still I agree 100% for what you get 15.00 is chump change compared to other subscription services.

    It's funny you bring up Netflix actually, as what are they giving you you can't A: get for free (hulu, Crackle etc..)or B: see on your own TV or pay a dollar to rent (redbox)? Answer: nothing. Yet you justify it because you enjoy it, it's the same thing here with MMO's. If your arguement is that Netflix offers more than the free services the others offer, well in most cases sub based MMO's offer more (in-game) than your typcial F2P model or the only B2p we know of out now GW1.

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    As for the OP's question what am I paying 15 a month for? I pay it to play a game I like and enjoy spending time in, if I didn't feel it's worth it I don't pay. That's the way commerce works, if the asking price is reasonable you pay for it.

    As for what they use the money for.

    A: The service(s) they offer.

    B: the staff they need to run that service

    C: the staff that helps customers have a smooth experience with that service(as much as possible)

    D: Profits.

    In the case of GW2 what is their CS setup going to be? Will NC handle it? When I call about an issue is it an Anet employee or Ncsoft employee who will take my call? Will there be in-game GM's? Will they have a full on support staff? How large will their post release content development team be? When I have an issue will it take about an hour to get help or 24-48?

    These are the question we have no real answer to, will they have a similar setup to GW1, where most tech support is automated through interfaces? For those who don't know what I'm referring to, watch MMORPG's video review of GW1 toward the end they discuss this, it's the area they got the most criticism in from that review.

     

     

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • evolver1972evolver1972 Member Posts: 1,118

    Originally posted by waynejr2

    Originally posted by Volkon

    Great article at Gamasutra

    http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/37537/Opinion_Guild_Wars_2_Fights_The_Subscription_Racket.php

     

    Makes you wonder what those subscription fees are really there for, besides greed that is.

     

    THere are free games on the market.  Makes you wonder why you have to pay for Guild Wars 2?  What is that for if not the greed?

    It's one thing to ask people to pay for a game that you have produced for their enjoyment.  That's typical capitalism and that's why companies exist.  The difference is when you pay for the game (buying the box) and then have to pay for the privilege to actually play it.

    When MMOG's first came out, the subscription fee made sense due to costs associated with servers, etc.  However, with as cheap and ubiquitous as incredibly powerful and fast machines are, those costs are now negligible.  So, if the costs that caused companies in the past to charge a sub no longer have any impact on their budgets, why do they continue to charge sub fees?  Simple:  Greed.

     

    Also, as most everyone on this site loves to point out, F2P doesn't really mean free anyway....

    image

    You want me to pay to play a game I already paid for???

    Be afraid.....The dragons are HERE!

  • FozzikFozzik Member UncommonPosts: 539

    I love how every time a discussion of GW2's payment model gets started, one side always turns into a comparison between subscription-based games and free-to-play games. GW2 is neither of those. If you want to argue against GW2's payment model, you should probably understand what it is first.

     

    GW2 is not a F2P game. You buy the box and you buy the expansions.

    Subscription-based games still require you to buy the box and buy the expansions...it IS NOT just $15 a month for a subscription-based game. People seem to forget this when they are making the "$15 is super cheap" arguments.

    GW2's cash shop will have only cosmetic items available which provide no in-game advantage or lift one character above another in any way. This has always been ArenaNet's philosophy, and there's no reason they would change it now.

     

    Based on what I've heard, it appears that most, if not all, of the cash shop items will be available to earn in-game. The only "exclusive" cash shop items will be account services like name changes or extra character slots. This is not unlike many other P2P MMORPGs.

     

    Those who refuse to try a GW2 simply because it has no monthly fee are only hurting themselves. They'll end up playing once their friends and family let them in on the secret...GW2 is actually going to be a better game, with more available content, and with a much better community, than whatever P2P games people have played in many years. The payment model doesn't make the community, the game mechanics, systems, and world do.

  • WSIMikeWSIMike Member Posts: 5,564

    Originally posted by Volkon

    Originally posted by vesavius

    What am I paying for in a sub game?

     

    An active team of GMs (in theory)

    Stability and maintenence (in theory)

    Ongoing development (in theory).

    An even playing field (in theory).

    FULL access to ALL content (and, yes, Fluff IS content) that is EARNABLE by PLAYING the game (in theory).

    So, basically, the stuff GW2 will provide you without a sub fee.

     

    Interesting.

    Well of course GW2 won't need a subscription... They'll have a cash shop, just like GW1 does! And it's already been noted by folks in the indusry that cash shops can potentially monetize players for far more than a flat monthly sub fee could... especially if you're selling items that players deem as valuable or beneficial to their gameplay. Items such as such as, say, full skill sets available for purchase in one bundle, instead of having to earn them through gameplay. Or, say, enhancements which benefit the player in PvP...

    That said, let's see what kind of things we can find in GW1's cash shop and, potentially, expect to find in GW2's shop as well...


    • 10 for a PvP Upgrade pack with some very compelling, game-affecting items

    • $10 a pop for each of the "core skill" packs from the core game and each expansion so you don't even have to play any of the campaigns to unlock them

    • A pet upgrade pack for $10

    • Storage upgrade for another $10...

    • A whole bunch of special costumes ("fluff items") for $7 a pop...

    • An extra character slot for $10

    • And so on.

    2 purchases, of even the $7 costumes, equals the standard sub fee for a P2P MMO ($14-$15), and you know as well as I do that there are people spending at least that much, if not more, to obtain those items.


     


    And that's all on top of the box fee that so many love to claim is "all ANet needs to maintain the game".


     


    I literally laughed out loud at the sheer sanctimony in the assertion made by of the the ANet folks (forget their name at the moment) about "P2P developers having to justify subscriptions". I believe I actually said "what a freaking hypocrite" out loud when I read it.

    While he's making such "bold assertions" about how developers "can't justify charging extra money for their MMOs" in the form of subscriptions, he's selling skill packs and other items via a cash shop in his own game.


    When GW does away with the cash shop and truly exists on box sales alone... then people like the ANet guy will have the right to question the validity of subscription fees. Until then, it's pure hypocrisy and spin-doctoring.


     


    For anyone to even imply that ANet could get by on box sales alone is either the height of gullibility, willful ignorance or dishonesty. And if ANet truly could do just fine on box sales alone - rendering their cash shop sales entirely superfluous and entirely for extra profit - then the remarks made by that individual would be doubly hypocritical and damning.

     

    Further still, each developer has its own circumstances and expenses based on how the company is set up, based on how the finances are set up and based on their overhead compared to their income. So there is no way to make such blanket statements as "developers don't need to charge a subscription". Unless someone knows the specific circumstances of each and every single developer charging a sub, they have no grounds to make that claim.

     

    "If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road,
    and the cash shop selling asphalt..."
    - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops

    image

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Member EpicPosts: 6,601

    Originally posted by Fozzik

    I love how every time a discussion of GW2's payment model gets started, one side always turns into a comparison between subscription-based games and free-to-play games. GW2 is neither of those. If you want to argue against GW2's payment model, you should probably understand what it is first.

     

    GW2 is not a F2P game. You buy the box and you buy the expansions.

    Subscription-based games still require you to buy the box and buy the expansions...it IS NOT just $15 a month for a subscription-based game. People seem to forget this when they are making the "$15 is super cheap" arguments.

    GW2's cash shop will have only cosmetic items available which provide no in-game advantage or lift one character above another in any way. This has always been ArenaNet's philosophy, and there's no reason they would change it now.

     

    Based on what I've heard, it appears that most, if not all, of the cash shop items will be available to earn in-game. The only "exclusive" cash shop items will be account services like name changes or extra character slots. This is not unlike many other P2P MMORPGs.

     

    Those who refuse to try a GW2 simply because it has no monthly fee are only hurting themselves. They'll end up playing once their friends and family let them in on the secret...GW2 is actually going to be a better game, with more available content, and with a much better community, than whatever P2P games people have played in many years. The payment model doesn't make the community, the game mechanics, systems, and world do.

    It's a B2P game with a cash shop, cosmetitc or not, needed or not it is still a cash shop.  Which means it will be more expensive than many F2P games - not that the cost is a lot or even particularly relevant.

    GW1 let you buy skills for pvp;

    Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,183

    Originally posted by WSIMike

    Well of course GW2 won't need a subscription... They'll have a cash shop, just like GW1 does! And it's already been noted by folks in the indusry that cash shops can potentially monetize players for far more than a flat monthly sub fee could... especially if you're selling items that players deem as valuable or beneficial to their gameplay... such as, say, full skill sets available at once, instead of having to earn them through gameplay. Or, say, enhancements which benefit the player in PvP...

    That said, let's see what kind of things we can find in GW1's cash shop and, potentially, expect to find in GW2's shop as well...


    • 10 for a PvP Upgrade pack with some very compelling, game-affecting items

    • $10 a pop for each of the "core skill" packs from the core game and each expansion so you don't even have to play any of the campaigns to unlock them

    • A pet upgrade pack for $10

    • Storage upgrade for another $10...

    • A whole bunch of special costumes ("fluff items") for $7 a pop...

    • An extra character slot for $10

    • And so on.

    2 purchases, of even the $7 costumes, equals the standard sub fee for a P2P MMO ($14-$15), and you know as well as I do that there are people spending at least that much, if not more, to obtain those items.


     


    And that's all on top of the box fee that so many love to claim is "all ANet needs to maintain the game".


     


    I literally laughed out loud at the sheer sanctimony in the assertion made by of the the ANet folks (forget their name at the moment) about "P2P developers having to justify subscriptions". I believe I actually said "what a freaking hypocrite" out loud when I read it.

    While he's making such "bold assertions" about how developers "can't justify charging extra money for their MMOs" in the form of subscriptions, he's selling skill packs and other items via a cash shop in his own game.


    When GW does away with the cash shop and truly exists on box sales alone... then people like the ANet guy will have the right to question the validity of subscription fees. Until then, it's pure hypocrisy and spin-doctoring.


     


    For anyone to even imply that ANet could get by on box sales alone is either the height of gullibility, willful ignorance or dishonesty. And if ANet truly could do just fine on box sales alone - rendering their cash shop sales entirely superfluous and entirely for extra profit - then the remarks made by that individual would be doubly hypocritical and damning.

     

    Further still, each developer has its own circumstances and expenses based on how the company is set up, based on how the finances are set up and based on their overhead compared to their income. So there is no way to make such blanket statements as "developers don't need to charge a subscription". Unless someone knows the specific circumstances of each and every single developer charging a sub, they have no grounds to make that claim.

     

    QFT

    Very well thought out post, kudos to you.

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • VesaviusVesavius Member RarePosts: 7,908

    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

    Originally posted by Elidien


    Originally posted by just1opinion


    Originally posted by Elidien


    Originally posted by Wharg0ul


    Originally posted by vesavius

    What am I paying for in a sub game?

     

    An active team of GMs (in theory)

    Stability and maintenence (in theory)

    Ongoing development (in theory).

    An even playing field (in theory).

    FULL access to ALL content (and, yes, Fluff IS content) that is EARNABLE by PLAYING the game (in theory).

    This.

    And as I'm fond of saying, the average MMO monthly sub is $15.00

    That's fifty cents per day.

    If you can't afford that, stop playing so many games and get a job.

    This.

    $15.00 is NOTHING and if you cannot afford it, go get a damn job and stop gaming.  Its simple as that.

    I cannot even buy myself a decent dinner for $15. My wife and I can play an MMO for 30 days for the cost of $1 per day. The last time we went to dinner and a movie (3-4 hours worth of entertainment), we spent over $80. The last nice dinner we had was over $90! But she and I can have unlimited access to ALL content in a game, realistically play for well over 100+ hours a month if we wanted and all that for $15.....its a no-brainer to me.

    In addition games that have fully or are partially funded by a cash shop tend to have other issues as well. From my experience, cash shop games have worse communities, more drama, etc... Example A: LOTRO before and after.

    Its just the classic argument of people not thinking beyond the tip of their own noce and understanding why someone likes something they do not. 

     

     

    You're either very well off financially,  you live with Mommy and Daddy still,  or you actually ARE married, but your wife is the one who writes out (or pays online) all the bills every month.  Because no one with any amount of common sense or responsibilities in life, would say "$15.00 is NOTHING...."   That's just ridiculous.  Now, I'm not saying it's a fortune or anything, but to say it's NOTHING proves you don't know much in the way of costs and paying bills.  Furthermore, for my family gaming will cost 30-45 dollars a month since there are 3 of us, so it's not a matter of 15 bucks, but a question of priorities and let's see....do we want Showtime or Netflix or gaming?  It requires, at least for US.....making a choice.....because 15 dollars IS SOMETHING.

     

    Cocky privileged attitudes just reek, if you ask me.  If you're so well to do that 15 dollars is nothing to you, that's fine, but don't make it a declaration for the world as if 15 bucks should be "nothing" to EVERYONE.  That's just arrogant and ignorant.

    Edit: You missed my point entirely. Compared to other forms of entertainment (dinner, movies, etc....), paying $15 a month for an MMO is dirt cheap. Sure $15 is still money but its a lot, LOT cheaper than most alternatives.

    Gamers who play games with cash shops statistically pay MORE per month for their games than gamers do who pay a sub fee. So accordingly, $15 is nothing and I guarantee the average gamer will spend more than $15 a month on Guild Wars 2due to the cash shop and frequency of expansions that they will have to release to make a profit.

    Just a comment on the highlighted part.  It has been shown over and over and over again on this very site with mutlple links to multple sources that what you stated is categorically wrong.  80-90% of those playing F2P games never spend a single cent while of those that do only about 10% actually spend any significant amount of money. 

     

    It has only been shown 'over and over' again in statements from F2P providers and individuals with a obvious vested interest in promoting 'F2P'.

    Link me a neutral statistic or study if you can that states this as fact and we can start discussing your post properly. I refuse to accept spin figures from those that profit from the model.

  • czekoskwigelczekoskwigel Member Posts: 458

    NCSoft is going to demand the same ROI from GW2 as they do from their subscription titles.  That leaves only a few options


    • Limited content (Content costs money, so without the money coming in, they won't invest a lot into it)

    • Lots of paid expansions

    • A lucritive cash shop

    • The game isn't worth a subscription.

     


    It's all about the money.  There's a reason a Porche costs more than a Volkswagon, right?

  • evolver1972evolver1972 Member Posts: 1,118

    Originally posted by WSIMike

    Originally posted by Volkon


    Originally posted by vesavius

    What am I paying for in a sub game?

     

    An active team of GMs (in theory)

    Stability and maintenence (in theory)

    Ongoing development (in theory).

    An even playing field (in theory).

    FULL access to ALL content (and, yes, Fluff IS content) that is EARNABLE by PLAYING the game (in theory).

    So, basically, the stuff GW2 will provide you without a sub fee.

     

    Interesting.

    Well of course GW2 won't need a subscription... They'll have a cash shop, just like GW1 does! And it's already been noted by folks in the indusry that cash shops can potentially monetize players for far more than a flat monthly sub fee could... especially if you're selling items that players deem as valuable or beneficial to their gameplay... such as, say, full skill sets available at once, instead of having to earn them through gameplay. Or, say, enhancements which benefit the player in PvP...

    That said, let's see what kind of things we can find in GW1's cash shop and, potentially, expect to find in GW2's shop as well...


    • 10 for a PvP Upgrade pack with some very compelling, game-affecting items

    • $10 a pop for each of the "core skill" packs from the core game and each expansion so you don't even have to play any of the campaigns to unlock them

    • A pet upgrade pack for $10

    • Storage upgrade for another $10...

    • A whole bunch of special costumes ("fluff items") for $7 a pop...

    • An extra character slot for $10

    • And so on.

    2 purchases, of even the $7 costumes, equals the standard sub fee for a P2P MMO ($14-$15), and you know as well as I do that there are people spending at least that much, if not more, to obtain those items.


     


    And that's all on top of the box fee that so many love to claim is "all ANet needs to maintain the game".


     


    I literally laughed out loud at the sheer sanctimony in the assertion made by of the the ANet folks (forget their name at the moment) about "P2P developers having to justify subscriptions". I believe I actually said "what a freaking hypocrite" out loud when I read it.

    While he's making such "bold assertions" about how developers "can't justify charging extra money for their MMOs" in the form of subscriptions, he's selling skill packs and other items via a cash shop in his own game.


    When GW does away with the cash shop and truly exists on box sales alone... then people like the ANet guy will have the right to question the validity of subscription fees. Until then, it's pure hypocrisy and spin-doctoring.


     


    For anyone to even imply that ANet could get by on box sales alone is either the height of gullibility, willful ignorance or dishonesty. And if ANet truly could do just fine on box sales alone - rendering their cash shop sales entirely superfluous and entirely for extra profit - then the remarks made by that individual would be doubly hypocritical and damning.

     

    Further still, each developer has its own circumstances and expenses based on how the company is set up, based on how the finances are set up and based on their overhead compared to their income. So there is no way to make such blanket statements as "developers don't need to charge a subscription". Unless someone knows the specific circumstances of each and every single developer charging a sub, they have no grounds to make that claim.

     

    LOL.  I've been playing GW1 for over 5 years now and haven't spent near as much on that game as I would have if I'd been playing any P2P game in that same time frame.  None of the stuff in the GW1 cash shop is necessary to buy, in fact, the only things worth buying are the fluff (if you like that type of thing) and maybe an inventory slot or two (get them on sale....)

    In that 5 years, I've spent roughly $180.00 on the games.  That includes all three games, the expansion, 2 sets of cosmetic outfits and 2 sets of inventory blocks.  I don't need more than 8 characters (which is what the game comes with), and I don't mind actually playing the game to get my character up to par both in PvE and PvP.  That's what playing the game is for!

     

    Do you honestly think that I would have spent the same or less than that on, say, WoW, or any other P2P game?  No way.  I would have spent close to that just to buy the game and expansions.  Even a cheap game ($10/month sub) would have me spending $600 in that five years.  So don't try to tell me that cash shops are more expensive than a sub fee.

    image

    You want me to pay to play a game I already paid for???

    Be afraid.....The dragons are HERE!

  • VesaviusVesavius Member RarePosts: 7,908

    Originally posted by Elidien

    Originally posted by Wharg0ul


    Originally posted by vesavius

    What am I paying for in a sub game?

     

    An active team of GMs (in theory)

    Stability and maintenence (in theory)

    Ongoing development (in theory).

    An even playing field (in theory).

    FULL access to ALL content (and, yes, Fluff IS content) that is EARNABLE by PLAYING the game (in theory).

    This.

    And as I'm fond of saying, the average MMO monthly sub is $15.00

    That's fifty cents per day.

    If you can't afford that, stop playing so many games and get a job.

    This.

    $15.00 is NOTHING and if you cannot afford it, go get a damn job and stop gaming.  Its simple as that.

    I cannot even buy myself a decent dinner for $15. My wife and I can play an MMO for 30 days for the cost of $1 per day. The last time we went to dinner and a movie (3-4 hours worth of entertainment), we spent over $80. The last nice dinner we had was over $90! But she and I can have unlimited access to ALL content in a game, realistically play for well over 100+ hours a month if we wanted and all that for $15.....its a no-brainer to me.

    In addition games that have fully or are partially funded by a cash shop tend to have other issues as well. From my experience, cash shop games have worse communities, more drama, etc... Example A: LOTRO before and after.

    Its just the classic argument of people not thinking beyond the tip of their own noce and understanding why someone likes something they do not. 

     

     

    Exactly.

    I agree with the general view that if you cannot afford £2.50 a week for a leisure activity then a person would proberly be better off using the time to get a part time job to get some extra cash in.

    If folks want to play multiple MMORPGs (an idea thats alien to me I admit) at the same time... well, thats their choice. I don't say don't do it, but I am sick of them using that choice to justify ruining MMORPGs with cash shops.

     

    Oh, and to answer some of the posters in the thread getting offended by the statement made above,  £10 for a month's entry into a game IS nothing and represents amazing value for a game.

  • QuesaQuesa Member UncommonPosts: 1,432

    Free2Play is such an overused term.  How many people do you know who play "F2P" games never put a dime into the publishers pocket?

    In the end, you always pay for stuff you do, whether it be flipping through 3rd party ads, the cash shop ads or buying a little toy tfrom said cash shop that "is only $2".  You are still paying.

    "Hard core gamers" will likely see more bang for their buck playing a sub based game vs. a F2P game simply for all the nickle and diming that goes on in the supposed FREE to play games.

    Also, as many have mentioned, $15/month is rather cheap for the entertainment value received - even if you only play 2-3 hours a month thats light years ahead of most other entertainment venues, in terms of efficient use of money.

    Star Citizen Referral Code: STAR-DPBM-Z2P4
  • VesaviusVesavius Member RarePosts: 7,908

    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

    Originally posted by Fozzik

    I love how every time a discussion of GW2's payment model gets started, one side always turns into a comparison between subscription-based games and free-to-play games. GW2 is neither of those. If you want to argue against GW2's payment model, you should probably understand what it is first.

     

    GW2 is not a F2P game. You buy the box and you buy the expansions.

    Subscription-based games still require you to buy the box and buy the expansions...it IS NOT just $15 a month for a subscription-based game. People seem to forget this when they are making the "$15 is super cheap" arguments.

    GW2's cash shop will have only cosmetic items available which provide no in-game advantage or lift one character above another in any way. This has always been ArenaNet's philosophy, and there's no reason they would change it now.

     

    Based on what I've heard, it appears that most, if not all, of the cash shop items will be available to earn in-game. The only "exclusive" cash shop items will be account services like name changes or extra character slots. This is not unlike many other P2P MMORPGs.

     

    Those who refuse to try a GW2 simply because it has no monthly fee are only hurting themselves. They'll end up playing once their friends and family let them in on the secret...GW2 is actually going to be a better game, with more available content, and with a much better community, than whatever P2P games people have played in many years. The payment model doesn't make the community, the game mechanics, systems, and world do.

    It's a B2P game with a cash shop, cosmetitc or not, needed or not it is still a cash shop.  Which means it will be more expensive than many F2P games - not that the cost is a lot or even particularly relevant.

    GW1 let you buy skills for pvp;

     

    I agree. I love GW but lets not pretend it's business model is anything more then standard  'F2P' with a box cost attached.

    I personally have no idea why folks proclaim 'B2P' as mana from heaven and superior to 'F2P'. It is just the same.

     

     

  • czekoskwigelczekoskwigel Member Posts: 458

    Originally posted by vesavius

    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar


    Originally posted by Fozzik

    I love how every time a discussion of GW2's payment model gets started, one side always turns into a comparison between subscription-based games and free-to-play games. GW2 is neither of those. If you want to argue against GW2's payment model, you should probably understand what it is first.

     

    GW2 is not a F2P game. You buy the box and you buy the expansions.

    Subscription-based games still require you to buy the box and buy the expansions...it IS NOT just $15 a month for a subscription-based game. People seem to forget this when they are making the "$15 is super cheap" arguments.

    GW2's cash shop will have only cosmetic items available which provide no in-game advantage or lift one character above another in any way. This has always been ArenaNet's philosophy, and there's no reason they would change it now.

     

    Based on what I've heard, it appears that most, if not all, of the cash shop items will be available to earn in-game. The only "exclusive" cash shop items will be account services like name changes or extra character slots. This is not unlike many other P2P MMORPGs.

     

    Those who refuse to try a GW2 simply because it has no monthly fee are only hurting themselves. They'll end up playing once their friends and family let them in on the secret...GW2 is actually going to be a better game, with more available content, and with a much better community, than whatever P2P games people have played in many years. The payment model doesn't make the community, the game mechanics, systems, and world do.

    It's a B2P game with a cash shop, cosmetitc or not, needed or not it is still a cash shop.  Which means it will be more expensive than many F2P games - not that the cost is a lot or even particularly relevant.

    GW1 let you buy skills for pvp;

     

    I agree. I love GW but lets not pretend it's business model is anything more then standard  'F2P' with a box cost attached.

    I personally have no idea why folks proclaim 'B2P' as mana from heaven and superior to 'F2P'. It is just the same.

     

     

    Agreed.  I have no problem with f2p, or p2p, some games are better suited for a given payment model, but the illusion that "B2P" is so vastly different from F2P is pathetic.

    It's really no different than all of the games that start out P2P, get you to buy the box, and then convert over to a F2P system.

  • WSIMikeWSIMike Member Posts: 5,564

    Originally posted by Distopia

    Originally posted by WSIMike



    Well of course GW2 won't need a subscription... They'll have a cash shop, just like GW1 does! And it's already been noted by folks in the indusry that cash shops can potentially monetize players for far more than a flat monthly sub fee could... especially if you're selling items that players deem as valuable or beneficial to their gameplay... such as, say, full skill sets available at once, instead of having to earn them through gameplay. Or, say, enhancements which benefit the player in PvP...

    That said, let's see what kind of things we can find in GW1's cash shop and, potentially, expect to find in GW2's shop as well...


    • 10 for a PvP Upgrade pack with some very compelling, game-affecting items

    • $10 a pop for each of the "core skill" packs from the core game and each expansion so you don't even have to play any of the campaigns to unlock them

    • A pet upgrade pack for $10

    • Storage upgrade for another $10...

    • A whole bunch of special costumes ("fluff items") for $7 a pop...

    • An extra character slot for $10

    • And so on.

    2 purchases, of even the $7 costumes, equals the standard sub fee for a P2P MMO ($14-$15), and you know as well as I do that there are people spending at least that much, if not more, to obtain those items.


     


    And that's all on top of the box fee that so many love to claim is "all ANet needs to maintain the game".


     


    I literally laughed out loud at the sheer sanctimony in the assertion made by of the the ANet folks (forget their name at the moment) about "P2P developers having to justify subscriptions". I believe I actually said "what a freaking hypocrite" out loud when I read it.

    While he's making such "bold assertions" about how developers "can't justify charging extra money for their MMOs" in the form of subscriptions, he's selling skill packs and other items via a cash shop in his own game.


    When GW does away with the cash shop and truly exists on box sales alone... then people like the ANet guy will have the right to question the validity of subscription fees. Until then, it's pure hypocrisy and spin-doctoring.


     


    For anyone to even imply that ANet could get by on box sales alone is either the height of gullibility, willful ignorance or dishonesty. And if ANet truly could do just fine on box sales alone - rendering their cash shop sales entirely superfluous and entirely for extra profit - then the remarks made by that individual would be doubly hypocritical and damning.

     

    Further still, each developer has its own circumstances and expenses based on how the company is set up, based on how the finances are set up and based on their overhead compared to their income. So there is no way to make such blanket statements as "developers don't need to charge a subscription". Unless someone knows the specific circumstances of each and every single developer charging a sub, they have no grounds to make that claim.

     

    QFT

    Very well thought out post, kudos to you.

    Heh, thanks.

    The obvious double-standard in that whole ANet guy's statement is just amazing to me.

    I'm surprised I haven't seen it called out more often.

     

    "If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road,
    and the cash shop selling asphalt..."
    - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops

    image

  • WSIMikeWSIMike Member Posts: 5,564

    Originally posted by evolver1972

     

    LOL.  I've been playing GW1 for over 5 years now and haven't spent near as much on that game as I would have if I'd been playing any P2P game in that same time frame.  None of the stuff in the GW1 cash shop is necessary to buy, in fact, the only things worth buying are the fluff (if you like that type of thing) and maybe an inventory slot or two (get them on sale....)

    In that 5 years, I've spent roughly $180.00 on the games.  That includes all three games, the expansion, 2 sets of cosmetic outfits and 2 sets of inventory blocks.  I don't need more than 8 characters (which is what the game comes with), and I don't mind actually playing the game to get my character up to par both in PvE and PvP.  That's what playing the game is for!

     

    Do you honestly think that I would have spent the same or less than that on, say, WoW, or any other P2P game?  No way.  I would have spent close to that just to buy the game and expansions.  Even a cheap game ($10/month sub) would have me spending $600 in that five years.  So don't try to tell me that cash shops are more expensive than a sub fee.

    1) My post was not about what Evolver has or hasn't spent in GW1. In other words, it's not about you.

    2) You apparently missed - or are ignoring - the entire point of my post.

     

    "If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road,
    and the cash shop selling asphalt..."
    - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops

    image

  • VesaviusVesavius Member RarePosts: 7,908

    Originally posted by laserit

    Originally posted by vesavius

    What am I paying for in a sub game?

     

    An active team of GMs (in theory)

    Stability and maintenence (in theory)

    Ongoing development (in theory).

    An even playing field (in theory).

    FULL access to ALL content (and, yes, Fluff IS content) that is EARNABLE by PLAYING the game (in theory).

    This is what I hope I'm paying for. Now alot of people argue that $15 a month is cheap entertainment and I agree. BUT...

    What are the profit margins on a successful title? I

     

    I have no problem with a successful title making millions a month off a sub model tbh. If they can launch a great gameand retain a big player base I would say they have earned that revenue.

    At least they have achieved it with transparency and not a shady and exploitative revenue model.

    I don't really care about  what the dev gets in the end, I only really care about personal value (which a sub offers if I want access to all game content) and being able to play to achieve all content.

  • cheyanecheyane Member LegendaryPosts: 9,405

    Good post Mike but it is not called out more often because most posters do not want to tangle with the rabid GW 2 fan. For them GW 2 is the second coming. Seriously when this game releases I want to see how it pans out. Right now everything is just supposition and no one knows exactly what this game will achieve. 

    Garrus Signature
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