So if something is cheap, you should just automatically pay for it? What an asinine line of reasoning. Even if you are getting absolutely no value for the money, it's ONLY $15 a month so just pay it? I think not. Yeah, insult people and call them poor because they actually want to GET SOMETHING for the money they spend.
People who think like that should check out this bridge I'm selling on Ebay. It's really cheap.
The only difference between the services that GW2 will be offering and those offered by the few remaining completely subscription-based P2P MMORPGs is those few strictly cosmetic items that will be in the cash shop. If folks feel like those few cosmetic items that they may or may not even be interested in are worth $15 a month for the whole time you want to play the game...more power to you.
The reality is that almost everyone, regardless of their opinion on the payment model, is going to buy and try GW2. A substantial number that wouldn't otherwise have tried the game will do so exactly BECAUSE of the B2P model. Once people try it and see what the game offers, this argument is likely to be completely moot. Sadly, there's no way to resolve the discussion now, other than to say, "wait and see". I believe folks are going to be completely floored by what ArenaNet is going to provide for just the price of the box.
I would point out that it's mildly amusing that the people defending the subscription model most vehemently are very often those with SW:ToR in their signatures. *giggle*
FULL access to ALL content (and, yes, Fluff IS content) that is EARNABLE by PLAYING the game (in theory).
This.
And as I'm fond of saying, the average MMO monthly sub is $15.00
That's fifty cents per day.
If you can't afford that, stop playing so many games and get a job.
This.
$15.00 is NOTHING and if you cannot afford it, go get a damn job and stop gaming. Its simple as that.
I cannot even buy myself a decent dinner for $15. My wife and I can play an MMO for 30 days for the cost of $1 per day. The last time we went to dinner and a movie (3-4 hours worth of entertainment), we spent over $80. The last nice dinner we had was over $90! But she and I can have unlimited access to ALL content in a game, realistically play for well over 100+ hours a month if we wanted and all that for $15.....its a no-brainer to me.
In addition games that have fully or are partially funded by a cash shop tend to have other issues as well. From my experience, cash shop games have worse communities, more drama, etc... Example A: LOTRO before and after.
Its just the classic argument of people not thinking beyond the tip of their own noce and understanding why someone likes something they do not.
You're either very well off financially, you live with Mommy and Daddy still, or you actually ARE married, but your wife is the one who writes out (or pays online) all the bills every month. Because no one with any amount of common sense or responsibilities in life, would say "$15.00 is NOTHING...." That's just ridiculous. Now, I'm not saying it's a fortune or anything, but to say it's NOTHING proves you don't know much in the way of costs and paying bills. Furthermore, for my family gaming will cost 30-45 dollars a month since there are 3 of us, so it's not a matter of 15 bucks, but a question of priorities and let's see....do we want Showtime or Netflix or gaming? It requires, at least for US.....making a choice.....because 15 dollars IS SOMETHING.
Cocky privileged attitudes just reek, if you ask me. If you're so well to do that 15 dollars is nothing to you, that's fine, but don't make it a declaration for the world as if 15 bucks should be "nothing" to EVERYONE. That's just arrogant and ignorant.
I am not sure this is really true in reality but paying for a game sometimes filters out the community and garners you the possibility of more mature players. When you demand a payment generally the people who pay may be loath to behave poorly.
Also f2p will focus on the shop rather than the game.
F2p games also will probably allow cheating and other aspect to go unchecked as they can use the excuse that it is f2p whereas p2p cannot do the same since you are paying for them to solve that issue. Not that less cheating occurs in p2p.
All those arguments sound great until you actually play a subscription-based MMO. Let's take WoW as an example, since it's by far the most popular P2P MMORPG. The community is perfectly awesome in WoW due to the subscription fee, right? And there's no cheating or hacking at all, because the millions of people paying $15 a month covers the cost of stopping all that, right?
Oh wait, the community is pants and there's tons of cheating and hacking. Hm...
- playing as much or less as I want for 15 $ a month
- a tiny community filter leaving those who are only there to look at the game and maybe cause trouble note TROLL out
- a quality product
I'm so sick of all these p2w, f2p threads its not even funny. Guild Wars 2 will have a cash shop so I'd rather pay a monthly fee not having to deal with p2w crap. Anyway Arenanets modell still beats the greed monthly fee + p2w shop already is so...
We need a MMORPG Cataclysm asap, finish the dark age of MMORPGS now!
"Everything you're bitching about is wrong. People don't have the time to invest in corpse runs, impossible zones, or long winded quests. Sometimes, they just want to pop on and play." "Then maybe MMORPGs aren't for you."
FULL access to ALL content (and, yes, Fluff IS content) that is EARNABLE by PLAYING the game (in theory).
This.
And as I'm fond of saying, the average MMO monthly sub is $15.00
That's fifty cents per day.
If you can't afford that, stop playing so many games and get a job.
This.
$15.00 is NOTHING and if you cannot afford it, go get a damn job and stop gaming. Its simple as that.
I cannot even buy myself a decent dinner for $15. My wife and I can play an MMO for 30 days for the cost of $1 per day. The last time we went to dinner and a movie (3-4 hours worth of entertainment), we spent over $80. The last nice dinner we had was over $90! But she and I can have unlimited access to ALL content in a game, realistically play for well over 100+ hours a month if we wanted and all that for $15.....its a no-brainer to me.
In addition games that have fully or are partially funded by a cash shop tend to have other issues as well. From my experience, cash shop games have worse communities, more drama, etc... Example A: LOTRO before and after.
Its just the classic argument of people not thinking beyond the tip of their own noce and understanding why someone likes something they do not.
You're either very well off financially, you live with Mommy and Daddy still, or you actually ARE married, but your wife is the one who writes out (or pays online) all the bills every month. Because no one with any amount of common sense or responsibilities in life, would say "$15.00 is NOTHING...." That's just ridiculous. Now, I'm not saying it's a fortune or anything, but to say it's NOTHING proves you don't know much in the way of costs and paying bills. Furthermore, for my family gaming will cost 30-45 dollars a month since there are 3 of us, so it's not a matter of 15 bucks, but a question of priorities and let's see....do we want Showtime or Netflix or gaming? It requires, at least for US.....making a choice.....because 15 dollars IS SOMETHING.
Cocky privileged attitudes just reek, if you ask me. If you're so well to do that 15 dollars is nothing to you, that's fine, but don't make it a declaration for the world as if 15 bucks should be "nothing" to EVERYONE. That's just arrogant and ignorant.
Gamers who play games with cash shops statistically pay MORE per month for their games than gamers do who pay a sub fee. So accordingly, $15 is nothing and I guarantee the average gamer will spend more than $15 a month on Guild Wars due to the cash shop and frequency of expansions.
I wasn't making an argument in favor of free to play games, or even buy to play, necessarily. I still play pay to play games. All I was saying is that I don't agree with you on 15 dollars being "nothing," that's all. If we're going to play a game.....we usually have to choose between that game and Showtime or Netflix or even BOTH if more than one of us is playing. That's all I was saying. So technically, I don't totally disagree with you. I have avoided free to play games BECAUSE of the cash shops.
Makes you wonder what those subscription fees are really there for, besides greed that is.
You pay a subscription so you don't get nickel and dimed by the F2P games. In WoW I have onlly bought two things. an authenticator and a little ragnaros for a friends birthday. I pay the fee I play the game.
Same with EVE when I played it, I payed the fee and played the game.
Why do they make you pay? The fact that you are paying creates a "psychological bond" between you and the game, thus forcing you to play (in order for your subscription to be as profitable as possible, you need to play as much as possible).
Also, you can only have one subscription running at a time (for an average human), so if you chose THIS game (by deciding to send your money to THIS company), then you can in fact not really play any other (plus you don't have time to play any other games anyway).
You are now commited (until you really are tired with the game). It's a bit like mariage, it offers an extra layer of protection to not break up/divorce (something you need to undo before you set yourself free). It makes you think twice before you leave the game, and the more time you have invested, the more difficult and absurd it becomes to leave.
I'll happily pay for not having a cash shop and a game with fully accessible content, equal chances for everyone and a realistic world where any advantages gained over others are due to better skills, more time and effort invested or simply being more creative, more cooperative or more intelligent than the other guy ...
... rather than having to open your wallet to be competitive in a world where many incentives/items/content don't have an ingame source but are lying on an out-of-game shelf.
Also more budget for development is a good reason.
Also, also: 15 bucks a month is only 50 cents per hour if you play just one hour a day on average.
I would never pay $15 a month for an MMO. There's no reason to spend that kind of money.
Microsoft is only charging $5 ($4 from Newegg) a month for Xbox LIVE.
Do you realize how much bandwidth they serve?
There is no excuse.
Sony also serves that amount of bandwidth. They do it even for free. (Side note: what excuse has MS to charge for XboxLive ?). You may ask why Sony can give that kind of service for free ? Because they make money on games. Whenever you buy a game, you pay for servers even if you don't use PSN/Xbox Live.
As for Guild Wars... GW1 uses almost same rules as Diablo, and therefore running servers is cheap (as is with Battle.Net).
GW2 is made differently and even they are not sure how it will work. Perhaps it will be successful or maybe they will have to suddenly switch to F2P to keep servers running.
I somehow knew this article was about GW2 before i even opened it.
There is alot can go into sub fees and only the dev knows the real answer.
I try to use how people /businesses and how usually operate to aid using common sense.These developers are in the business of making money and A-net still works for NCSOFT.NCSOFT could force their hand and ask sub fees based on the rest of their games.However i feel not only A-Net but NCSOFT and myself all feel GW1 and 2 are not sub fee warranted.
This does not mean there isn't other games out there that are charging sub fees that shouldn't be,but imo IF they coudl get more money they darn well would.This is their business and job ,i am pretty sure the stock holders would be really pissed and the big boardroom execs who get bonuses would also be pissed if they knew they could make more proft.
FFXI took 5 years to break even,so it was warranted and before i knew the numbers i felt the game showed in depth development.SOE did not want to do the original EQ,again a bold move to be the first real big score.
As to possible costs?...
The staff needs to be paid unless you are mainly contracts and ditching the staff.This can work if i use GW1 as an example.Wait until the entire game is finished,then drop your over head and divide the game into 4 parts.Sell it in 4 parts as an expansion even though it really is only one large game ,equal to the size of every other game in the market.This way the sales of the xpacs which really are not xpacs can act the same as a sub fee.
There is one VERY simple math formula to follow...
If a game takes 4 years to make that is a heck of a lot of overhead and cost.If they can make a profit from a simple 50 dollar box sale and fund the bandwidth/server cost and any staff that remains,then you know that game took VERY little to produce.I have seen where GW2 is cutting corners,VERY obvious,i have already mentioned it several times,so i ma not about to repeat myself.
There is nothing needed but common sense to figure out cost,time of production to know weather the game warrants a sub fee.The old saying "you get what you pay for" holds up quite often and "nothing is for free" is also FACT.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
FULL access to ALL content (and, yes, Fluff IS content) that is EARNABLE by PLAYING the game (in theory).
This.
And as I'm fond of saying, the average MMO monthly sub is $15.00
That's fifty cents per day.
If you can't afford that, stop playing so many games and get a job.
This.
$15.00 is NOTHING and if you cannot afford it, go get a damn job and stop gaming. Its simple as that.
I cannot even buy myself a decent dinner for $15. My wife and I can play an MMO for 30 days for the cost of $1 per day. The last time we went to dinner and a movie (3-4 hours worth of entertainment), we spent over $80. The last nice dinner we had was over $90! But she and I can have unlimited access to ALL content in a game, realistically play for well over 100+ hours a month if we wanted and all that for $15.....its a no-brainer to me.
In addition games that have fully or are partially funded by a cash shop tend to have other issues as well. From my experience, cash shop games have worse communities, more drama, etc... Example A: LOTRO before and after.
Its just the classic argument of people not thinking beyond the tip of their own noce and understanding why someone likes something they do not.
You're either very well off financially, you live with Mommy and Daddy still, or you actually ARE married, but your wife is the one who writes out (or pays online) all the bills every month. Because no one with any amount of common sense or responsibilities in life, would say "$15.00 is NOTHING...." That's just ridiculous. Now, I'm not saying it's a fortune or anything, but to say it's NOTHING proves you don't know much in the way of costs and paying bills. Furthermore, for my family gaming will cost 30-45 dollars a month since there are 3 of us, so it's not a matter of 15 bucks, but a question of priorities and let's see....do we want Showtime or Netflix or gaming? It requires, at least for US.....making a choice.....because 15 dollars IS SOMETHING.
Cocky privileged attitudes just reek, if you ask me. If you're so well to do that 15 dollars is nothing to you, that's fine, but don't make it a declaration for the world as if 15 bucks should be "nothing" to EVERYONE. That's just arrogant and ignorant.
Edit: You missed my point entirely. Compared to other forms of entertainment (dinner, movies, etc....), paying $15 a month for an MMO is dirt cheap. Sure $15 is still money but its a lot, LOT cheaper than most alternatives.
Gamers who play games with cash shops statistically pay MORE per month for their games than gamers do who pay a sub fee. So accordingly, $15 is nothing and I guarantee the average gamer will spend more than $15 a month on Guild Wars 2due to the cash shop and frequency of expansions that they will have to release to make a profit.
Just a comment on the highlighted part. It has been shown over and over and over again on this very site with mutlple links to multple sources that what you stated is categorically wrong. 80-90% of those playing F2P games never spend a single cent while of those that do only about 10% actually spend any significant amount of money.
Venge
However I agree MMO's are very cheap, howeve that still doesn't mean they are worth it.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Some of the responses in this thread make the economist in me weep.
Seriously, take a basic level economy class, and then say "It's only $.50 a day".
Seriously, whenever I think of MMO players, "a fool and his money are easily parted" comes to mind.
PS. I don't think we're going to see the sub model go away soon but hopefully, sooner than later.
PPS. I am not anti-sub. I currently pay for a game that is viewed as "dead" to the MMO base. IMO if you can justify you $15 to YOURSELF, then pay for it. But that does not mean that I am naive and stupid to think that game developers need this money.
"Never argue with a fool; onlookers may not be able to tell the difference."
They don't NEED the money. Just like the bank doesn't need to charge that level of interest, or the movies don't need to charge that much, or the bakery doesn't need to charge that much for the donuts.
It isn't about what they NEED to charge, it is about what the market will bear and making sure they at least cover their costs.
Venge
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
I do not actually think about the $15 I pay. If the game is fun and it has a sub I pay. If the game is F2P but I need something I buy it . I do not consider it a waste nor do I think that game developers need the money .I think they are making money just like a lot of things in my life. Does the handbag I bought last week have to cost that much or these new shoes but if I like it I pay for it.
It is what we are willing to pay for the things we enjoy. If GW 2 manages to do well with their model good for them but that does not mean I will enjoy the game nor does the fact that the game have no sub be a consideration for me to play it. I only have one criteria it has to be fun for me irrespective of cost.
I pay $15 a month to avoid playing with people who can't or wont pay $15 a month. It has nothing to do with money per se. The communities are not to my liking in ftp games. I have played many games with and without sub fees and the one constant I have always found is that games with sub fees have a more mature community. The difference is generally striking.
I pay $15 a month to avoid playing with people who can't or wont pay $15 a month. It has nothing to do with money per se. The communities are not to my liking in ftp games. I have played many games with and without sub fees and the one constant I have always found is that games with sub fees have a more mature community. The difference is generally striking.
What a load of tosh.
LotRO has a better community than WoW and RIFT combined.
Goons play EVE Online.
Or maybe your definition of "maturity" is preposterously skewed? is that it?
"Never argue with a fool; onlookers may not be able to tell the difference."
I pay $15 a month to avoid playing with people who can't or wont pay $15 a month. It has nothing to do with money per se. The communities are not to my liking in ftp games. I have played many games with and without sub fees and the one constant I have always found is that games with sub fees have a more mature community. The difference is generally striking.
What a load of tosh.
LotRO has a better community than WoW and RIFT combined.
Goons play EVE Online.
Or maybe your definition of "maturity" is preposterously skewed? is that it?
But LotRo had that community BEFORE the game went free to play.
I pay $15 a month to avoid playing with people who can't or wont pay $15 a month. It has nothing to do with money per se. The communities are not to my liking in ftp games. I have played many games with and without sub fees and the one constant I have always found is that games with sub fees have a more mature community. The difference is generally striking.
What a load of tosh.
LotRO has a better community than WoW and RIFT combined.
Goons play EVE Online.
Or maybe your definition of "maturity" is preposterously skewed? is that it?
But LotRo had that community BEFORE the game went free to play.
And WoW and RIFT have their communities and they are P2P.
What is your point?
By Angus858's absurd logic, once LotRO went F2P it should have been swamped by social undesireables. Whether a game is F2P or P2P has NO bearing on whether or not the game will have a crap or amazing community.
People in this thread want to feel big and special as if they are wealthy trust-fund heirs and thus can afford throwing only $15 - sorry to disappoint you, gents - $15 is a pittance and everyone and their dog can pay it and not bat an eyelid.
Edited for clarity.
"Never argue with a fool; onlookers may not be able to tell the difference."
I pay $15 a month to avoid playing with people who can't or wont pay $15 a month. It has nothing to do with money per se. The communities are not to my liking in ftp games. I have played many games with and without sub fees and the one constant I have always found is that games with sub fees have a more mature community. The difference is generally striking.
What a load of tosh.
LotRO has a better community than WoW and RIFT combined.
Goons play EVE Online.
Or maybe your definition of "maturity" is preposterously skewed? is that it?
If you are half my age or twice my age I would expect you to view my definition of maturity as skewed. Nothing wrong with that. We each know who we like to associate with. When I want to go out and have fun I usually hang with my friends, not my children's friends. That is not a judgement against them, just an admission of reality.
When I played LoTRO it did have a great community, but that was before ftp. I have not tried it since.
I pay $15 a month to avoid playing with people who can't or wont pay $15 a month. It has nothing to do with money per se. The communities are not to my liking in ftp games. I have played many games with and without sub fees and the one constant I have always found is that games with sub fees have a more mature community. The difference is generally striking.
What a load of tosh.
LotRO has a better community than WoW and RIFT combined.
Goons play EVE Online.
Or maybe your definition of "maturity" is preposterously skewed? is that it?
If you are half my age or twice my age I would expect you to view my definition of maturity as skewed. Nothing wrong with that. We each know who we like to associate with. When I want to go out and have fun I usually hang with my friends, not my children's friends. That is not a judgement against them, just an admission of reality.
When I played LoTRO it did have a great community, but that was before ftp. I have not tried it since.
You still haven't demonstrated the correlation between payment model and community quality.
"Never argue with a fool; onlookers may not be able to tell the difference."
FULL access to ALL content (and, yes, Fluff IS content) that is EARNABLE by PLAYING the game (in theory).
This.
And as I'm fond of saying, the average MMO monthly sub is $15.00
That's fifty cents per day.
If you can't afford that, stop playing so many games and get a job.
I have to concur, this sums it up pretty well for me also.
I will always try to pick a pay to play game over a free to play game. The reasons are all those listed above. But you could also include maturity and quality of community. WoW-excluded most games with a sub fee are so much nicer to be in than most free to play/pay to win modeled games.
I hate to put it this way because it is not precisely correct, but part of paying a sub fee is to avoid people who want a free ride handed to them for everything as well.
Comments
So if something is cheap, you should just automatically pay for it? What an asinine line of reasoning. Even if you are getting absolutely no value for the money, it's ONLY $15 a month so just pay it? I think not. Yeah, insult people and call them poor because they actually want to GET SOMETHING for the money they spend.
People who think like that should check out this bridge I'm selling on Ebay. It's really cheap.
The only difference between the services that GW2 will be offering and those offered by the few remaining completely subscription-based P2P MMORPGs is those few strictly cosmetic items that will be in the cash shop. If folks feel like those few cosmetic items that they may or may not even be interested in are worth $15 a month for the whole time you want to play the game...more power to you.
The reality is that almost everyone, regardless of their opinion on the payment model, is going to buy and try GW2. A substantial number that wouldn't otherwise have tried the game will do so exactly BECAUSE of the B2P model. Once people try it and see what the game offers, this argument is likely to be completely moot. Sadly, there's no way to resolve the discussion now, other than to say, "wait and see". I believe folks are going to be completely floored by what ArenaNet is going to provide for just the price of the box.
I would point out that it's mildly amusing that the people defending the subscription model most vehemently are very often those with SW:ToR in their signatures. *giggle*
You're either very well off financially, you live with Mommy and Daddy still, or you actually ARE married, but your wife is the one who writes out (or pays online) all the bills every month. Because no one with any amount of common sense or responsibilities in life, would say "$15.00 is NOTHING...." That's just ridiculous. Now, I'm not saying it's a fortune or anything, but to say it's NOTHING proves you don't know much in the way of costs and paying bills. Furthermore, for my family gaming will cost 30-45 dollars a month since there are 3 of us, so it's not a matter of 15 bucks, but a question of priorities and let's see....do we want Showtime or Netflix or gaming? It requires, at least for US.....making a choice.....because 15 dollars IS SOMETHING.
Cocky privileged attitudes just reek, if you ask me. If you're so well to do that 15 dollars is nothing to you, that's fine, but don't make it a declaration for the world as if 15 bucks should be "nothing" to EVERYONE. That's just arrogant and ignorant.
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
All those arguments sound great until you actually play a subscription-based MMO. Let's take WoW as an example, since it's by far the most popular P2P MMORPG. The community is perfectly awesome in WoW due to the subscription fee, right? And there's no cheating or hacking at all, because the millions of people paying $15 a month covers the cost of stopping all that, right?
Oh wait, the community is pants and there's tons of cheating and hacking. Hm...
http://steamcommunity.com/id/Cloudsol/
What I'm paying for and what I SHOULD get for it:
- customer support
- maintenance
- access to the online "world"
- playing as much or less as I want for 15 $ a month
- a tiny community filter leaving those who are only there to look at the game and maybe cause trouble note TROLL out
- a quality product
I'm so sick of all these p2w, f2p threads its not even funny. Guild Wars 2 will have a cash shop so I'd rather pay a monthly fee not having to deal with p2w crap. Anyway Arenanets modell still beats the greed monthly fee + p2w shop already is so...
We need a MMORPG Cataclysm asap, finish the dark age of MMORPGS now!
"Everything you're bitching about is wrong. People don't have the time to invest in corpse runs, impossible zones, or long winded quests. Sometimes, they just want to pop on and play."
"Then maybe MMORPGs aren't for you."
I wasn't making an argument in favor of free to play games, or even buy to play, necessarily. I still play pay to play games. All I was saying is that I don't agree with you on 15 dollars being "nothing," that's all. If we're going to play a game.....we usually have to choose between that game and Showtime or Netflix or even BOTH if more than one of us is playing. That's all I was saying. So technically, I don't totally disagree with you. I have avoided free to play games BECAUSE of the cash shops.
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
You pay a subscription so you don't get nickel and dimed by the F2P games. In WoW I have onlly bought two things. an authenticator and a little ragnaros for a friends birthday. I pay the fee I play the game.
Same with EVE when I played it, I payed the fee and played the game.
Why are you paying: because you like the game.
Why do they make you pay? The fact that you are paying creates a "psychological bond" between you and the game, thus forcing you to play (in order for your subscription to be as profitable as possible, you need to play as much as possible).
Also, you can only have one subscription running at a time (for an average human), so if you chose THIS game (by deciding to send your money to THIS company), then you can in fact not really play any other (plus you don't have time to play any other games anyway).
You are now commited (until you really are tired with the game). It's a bit like mariage, it offers an extra layer of protection to not break up/divorce (something you need to undo before you set yourself free). It makes you think twice before you leave the game, and the more time you have invested, the more difficult and absurd it becomes to leave.
I'll happily pay for not having a cash shop and a game with fully accessible content, equal chances for everyone and a realistic world where any advantages gained over others are due to better skills, more time and effort invested or simply being more creative, more cooperative or more intelligent than the other guy ...
... rather than having to open your wallet to be competitive in a world where many incentives/items/content don't have an ingame source but are lying on an out-of-game shelf.
Also more budget for development is a good reason.
Also, also: 15 bucks a month is only 50 cents per hour if you play just one hour a day on average.
My brand new bloggity blog.
Sony also serves that amount of bandwidth. They do it even for free. (Side note: what excuse has MS to charge for XboxLive ?). You may ask why Sony can give that kind of service for free ? Because they make money on games. Whenever you buy a game, you pay for servers even if you don't use PSN/Xbox Live.
As for Guild Wars... GW1 uses almost same rules as Diablo, and therefore running servers is cheap (as is with Battle.Net).
And despite of what they claim now (in Gamasutra article) it was meant to be cheap from the beginnig http://web.archive.org/web/20110114182824/http://www.wargamer.com/article/1513/Interview-Guild-Wars?page=1 .
GW2 is made differently and even they are not sure how it will work. Perhaps it will be successful or maybe they will have to suddenly switch to F2P to keep servers running.
I somehow knew this article was about GW2 before i even opened it.
There is alot can go into sub fees and only the dev knows the real answer.
I try to use how people /businesses and how usually operate to aid using common sense.These developers are in the business of making money and A-net still works for NCSOFT.NCSOFT could force their hand and ask sub fees based on the rest of their games.However i feel not only A-Net but NCSOFT and myself all feel GW1 and 2 are not sub fee warranted.
This does not mean there isn't other games out there that are charging sub fees that shouldn't be,but imo IF they coudl get more money they darn well would.This is their business and job ,i am pretty sure the stock holders would be really pissed and the big boardroom execs who get bonuses would also be pissed if they knew they could make more proft.
FFXI took 5 years to break even,so it was warranted and before i knew the numbers i felt the game showed in depth development.SOE did not want to do the original EQ,again a bold move to be the first real big score.
As to possible costs?...
The staff needs to be paid unless you are mainly contracts and ditching the staff.This can work if i use GW1 as an example.Wait until the entire game is finished,then drop your over head and divide the game into 4 parts.Sell it in 4 parts as an expansion even though it really is only one large game ,equal to the size of every other game in the market.This way the sales of the xpacs which really are not xpacs can act the same as a sub fee.
There is one VERY simple math formula to follow...
If a game takes 4 years to make that is a heck of a lot of overhead and cost.If they can make a profit from a simple 50 dollar box sale and fund the bandwidth/server cost and any staff that remains,then you know that game took VERY little to produce.I have seen where GW2 is cutting corners,VERY obvious,i have already mentioned it several times,so i ma not about to repeat myself.
There is nothing needed but common sense to figure out cost,time of production to know weather the game warrants a sub fee.The old saying "you get what you pay for" holds up quite often and "nothing is for free" is also FACT.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Just a comment on the highlighted part. It has been shown over and over and over again on this very site with mutlple links to multple sources that what you stated is categorically wrong. 80-90% of those playing F2P games never spend a single cent while of those that do only about 10% actually spend any significant amount of money.
Venge
However I agree MMO's are very cheap, howeve that still doesn't mean they are worth it.
I'm paying for unlimited access to a game I enjoy playing with no additional costs associated with access to any content in game.
If that changes, where you have to pay subscription AND buy additional stuff, I don't play.
Some of the responses in this thread make the economist in me weep.
Seriously, take a basic level economy class, and then say "It's only $.50 a day".
Seriously, whenever I think of MMO players, "a fool and his money are easily parted" comes to mind.
PS. I don't think we're going to see the sub model go away soon but hopefully, sooner than later.
PPS. I am not anti-sub. I currently pay for a game that is viewed as "dead" to the MMO base. IMO if you can justify you $15 to YOURSELF, then pay for it. But that does not mean that I am naive and stupid to think that game developers need this money.
"Never argue with a fool; onlookers may not be able to tell the difference."
I need to take this advice more.
They don't NEED the money. Just like the bank doesn't need to charge that level of interest, or the movies don't need to charge that much, or the bakery doesn't need to charge that much for the donuts.
It isn't about what they NEED to charge, it is about what the market will bear and making sure they at least cover their costs.
Venge
I do not actually think about the $15 I pay. If the game is fun and it has a sub I pay. If the game is F2P but I need something I buy it . I do not consider it a waste nor do I think that game developers need the money .I think they are making money just like a lot of things in my life. Does the handbag I bought last week have to cost that much or these new shoes but if I like it I pay for it.
It is what we are willing to pay for the things we enjoy. If GW 2 manages to do well with their model good for them but that does not mean I will enjoy the game nor does the fact that the game have no sub be a consideration for me to play it. I only have one criteria it has to be fun for me irrespective of cost.
I pay $29.97 for 3 months for LotRO. That's about 33 cents per day.
Hedonismbot: Your latest performance was as delectable as dipping my bottom over and over into a bath of the silkiest oils and creams.
I pay $15 a month to avoid playing with people who can't or wont pay $15 a month. It has nothing to do with money per se. The communities are not to my liking in ftp games. I have played many games with and without sub fees and the one constant I have always found is that games with sub fees have a more mature community. The difference is generally striking.
What a load of tosh.
LotRO has a better community than WoW and RIFT combined.
Goons play EVE Online.
Or maybe your definition of "maturity" is preposterously skewed? is that it?
"Never argue with a fool; onlookers may not be able to tell the difference."
I need to take this advice more.
But LotRo had that community BEFORE the game went free to play.
And WoW and RIFT have their communities and they are P2P.
What is your point?
By Angus858's absurd logic, once LotRO went F2P it should have been swamped by social undesireables. Whether a game is F2P or P2P has NO bearing on whether or not the game will have a crap or amazing community.
People in this thread want to feel big and special as if they are wealthy trust-fund heirs and thus can afford throwing only $15 - sorry to disappoint you, gents - $15 is a pittance and everyone and their dog can pay it and not bat an eyelid.
Edited for clarity.
"Never argue with a fool; onlookers may not be able to tell the difference."
I need to take this advice more.
If you are half my age or twice my age I would expect you to view my definition of maturity as skewed. Nothing wrong with that. We each know who we like to associate with. When I want to go out and have fun I usually hang with my friends, not my children's friends. That is not a judgement against them, just an admission of reality.
When I played LoTRO it did have a great community, but that was before ftp. I have not tried it since.
You still haven't demonstrated the correlation between payment model and community quality.
"Never argue with a fool; onlookers may not be able to tell the difference."
I need to take this advice more.
Hey guys, lets avoid using baiting and personal attacks on people with differing opinions. Thanks!
I have to concur, this sums it up pretty well for me also.
I will always try to pick a pay to play game over a free to play game. The reasons are all those listed above. But you could also include maturity and quality of community. WoW-excluded most games with a sub fee are so much nicer to be in than most free to play/pay to win modeled games.
I hate to put it this way because it is not precisely correct, but part of paying a sub fee is to avoid people who want a free ride handed to them for everything as well.